They also have a racial power (it says in one of the paragon paths in the FRPG)
Maybe:
+2 STR, +2 to one of choice
Dual Heritage (counts as both orc and human)
Bonus Feat
Bonus Skill Training
(No bonus at-will)
(No charge bonus)
Maybe they don't favor either because they're really versatile.
Maybe:
+2 STR, +2 to one of choice
Dual Heritage (counts as both orc and human)
Bonus Feat
Bonus Skill Training
(No bonus at-will)
(No charge bonus)
I don't see that, as that would make Humans worthless, and everyone would play a Half-Orc.
I'd say +2 STR, and maybe a +2 of something else (WIS is probably not a bad choice).
I don't see that, as that would make Humans worthless, and everyone would play a Half-Orc.
I'd say +2 STR, and maybe a +2 of something else (WIS is probably not a bad choice).
I don't think so. An extra at-will is an incredibly powerful feature, not to mention the +1 to F/R/W.
I dunno. They didn't make Half-Elves psuedo-humans, so I guess my version doesn't really make sense.
I don't think that every race has to have +2 to two separate attributes to be balanced.
If added to constitution, the half-orc becomes exactly like the orc, which means it's redundant to have orcs and half-orcs. Adding wisdom is a better option, but I don't think that half-orcs would be exceptionally wise whatever culture they are born into the typical half-orc would constantly be vying for acceptance, most likely taking foolish risks to garner acceptance, in orc society (as it were) they'd be the first to run into battles without thinking it through, in human they would either accept the prejudice they may have and perpetuate a stereotype that they are little better than orcs, or blindly accept such prejudice and go about without trying to get noticed, never amounting to anything.
Personally, I see half-orcs only getting a +2 to strength they aren't as durable as full blooded orcs, and not as adaptable as the human race, but they are still quite strong, and while orcs are tough, half-orcs are resiliant, letting them benefit from the human feats.
I can see them maybe getting an encounter power that grants them temporary hit points. If I was creating the half-orc, here's how I'd do it.
Half-Orc
Ability Scores" +2 Strength
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 Squares
Vision: Normal
Language: Common
Skill Bonus: +2 Intimidate
I'll Show You(what I can do)!: Half-Orcs get +1 to attack rolls
Dual-Blood: You can take feats that have either the human or orc prerequisite (as well as those specifically for half-orcs), as long as you meet the other prerequisites.
Thick Skin
Encounter
Minor Action Personal
Effect: Gain 5 plus your constitution modifier temporary hit points, and make a save against condition that is affecting you that allows a save.
This increased to 10 plus constitution modifier at 21st level.
Half-orcs, when finding themselves in a tough situation often muster up the durability of orcs, and the stubbornness of humans.
Y'never know, could happen.
Maybe it will be a PC race that gets +2 STR and +2 DEX?
Y'never know, could happen.
Bugbears have +2 Str +2 Dex already.
Bugbears have +2 Str +2 Dex already.
Yeah, but there are THREE MM races that get +2 STR +2 CON. And Shadar-kai are basically Eladrin with less feats. It wouldn't be unheard of.
I also have the opinion that the Goliath is going to be +2 STR/WIS to represent their contemplative "slow to act" side. (makes sense).
That all said the half-orc could always just get one stat like a +2 STR, or +2CON depending on where it was raised, and then get something else entirely for the lack of the other stat. Heck just being half-human and being able to dip into those feats is going to make this race pretty awesome.
I kinda think the half-orc is still going to be STR/CON. I mean without some serious racial background re-writing no other stat really applies well to it. They are not WIS, INT, DEX, CHA.
Wisdom fits them to a T, you know, what with them having to survive childhood as monsters and all. Children tend to be weak, and Half-Orcs should be no exception so chances are they'd rather learn to rely on their insight to know when some bad **** is going down and get lost before anything bad happens instead of waiting for it to happen and tolerate the beatings.
I also have the opinion that the Goliath is going to be +2 STR/WIS to represent their contemplative "slow to act" side. (makes sense).
Goliaths are stated to favor the Rageblood Barbarian build option, indicating very strongly that they do, in fact, get +2 Strength and +2 Constitution.
Wisdom fits them to a T, you know, what with them having to survive childhood as monsters and all. Children tend to be weak, and Half-Orcs should be no exception so chances are they'd rather learn to rely on their insight to know when some bad **** is going down and get lost before anything bad happens instead of waiting for it to happen and tolerate the beatings.
You may have something here, provided they don't go with their original concept for the 4E half-orc.
In the original concept the half-orcs are not "unwanted" births; they random births (regardless of parentage) that are a small percentage. Think of them like albinos in todays world. If that is the case they would be considered a boon to either community (human or orc) that is gifted with one, and they wouldn't face the same upbringing as they used to, if anything they would be pampered.
Goliaths are stated to favor the Rageblood Barbarian build option, indicating very strongly that they do, in fact, get +2 Strength and +2 Constitution.
Because a book says that "something is good" at a job does not mean that it is stated out for it. Heck it says Dragonborn are good for barbarians too, yet the CHA does them nothing.
Take the Swordmage: It was invented by the Eladrins, they go on to say that Eladrins make great Swordmages: Yet of the Eladrin stats only the +2 INT is "Swordmage". But the bonus with swords, and the fey step, etc... more then make up for the stat issue.
Another example is the warrior class. I see more people playing dwarves then any other race, and they only have the CON bonus, but when you add the second wind and the minus to forced movement they actually come out to be pretty tough. The warforged is made for the position (stat wise), but in this addition that does not seem to make too much difference. Not saying it isn't set-up for it, just saying that the Devs are not talking "munchkin" when they make their suggestions.
So it could be the stats, or racial feats, or any number of alternate powers the goliath gets that make them good, or it could be a combination of both, but to assume anything is to end up... well you know! Look at how many people assumed the barbarian was a defender!
Because a book says that "something is good" at a job does not mean that it is stated out for it. Heck it says Dragonborn are good for barbarians too, yet the CHA does them nothing.
Of course, the write-up also implies that the second barbarian build (the one not shown in the article) will be Strength/Charisma. It seemed a bit strange to me at first, but with this setup the barbarian will actually be good at intimidate this time (unlike 3rd edition where CHA was often a dump stat for them, and people suggested house-rules to let them use STR with intimidate so they could scare people as effectively as a rogue).
I agree with the half-orc being +2 STR/+2 WIS. WIS seems like the best second stat to fit them (other than perhaps CON, but the regular orc already has that).
Shifters also get STR/WIS, but there were two 'builds' of shifter in the monster manual. This makes me think that there will be a few different types of playable shifter, and that their physical stat (STR, DEX, or CON) will vary depending on build. The barbarian article says that shifters favor the rageblood build (along with dwarves), which makes me think they'll get a CON build as well as the STR and DEX builds in the monster manual (note that the dwarves get a CON bonus as well). This would also explain why there are only five races in the PHB2 (as opposed to the original PHB's eight), if three of the 'slots' are different types of shifter.
They should not be +2 Str / +2 Wis. If a race is a perfect mechanical match with a class, flavor should overlap. A +2 Str / +2 Wis Half Orc would mechanically match with Strength Paladins and Melee Clerics, but flavor-wise is a complete miss. There is precedence for this: Elf Bow Rangers, Dragonborn Inspiring Warlords, Tiefling Cha Warlocks, Eladrin Wand Wizards (would be more common if not for the ridiculous strength of Orb), Drow Artful Rogues, Warforged Hammer Fighters, Genasi Swordmages, the list goes on and on. But Half-Orc Melee Clerics doesn't belong on the list.
My ideal Half-Orc:
Half-Orc
Ability Scores: +2 Strength
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 Squares
Vision: Low-Light
Languages: Common, choice of one other
Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics, +2 Intimidate
Dual Heritage: You can take feats that have either orc or human as a prerequisite (as well as those specifically for half-orcs), as long as you meet any other requirements.
Hybrid Vigor: You gain 5 hit points. This bonus increases to 10 hit points at 11th level, and 15 hit points at 21st level.
Survivor: You can use survivor as an encounter power.
They should not be +2 Str / +2 Wis.
Says you. I made a decent case for why they should get a +2 to Wisdom.
If a race is a perfect mechanical match with a class, flavor should overlap.
Again, says you, but that don't make it so.
A +2 Str / +2 Wis Half Orc would mechanically match with Strength Paladins and Melee Clerics, but flavor-wise is a complete miss. There is precedence for this: Elf Bow Rangers, Dragonborn Inspiring Warlords, Tiefling Cha Warlocks, Eladrin Wand Wizards (would be more common if not for the ridiculous strength of Orb), Drow Artful Rogues, Warforged Hammer Fighters, Genasi Swordmages, the list goes on and on.
The way things are is not proof of the way things should be. For all you know those could be coincidences.
Also, nice piece of dishonesty there with the Tiefling. Tieflings are not the best choice for an Infernal pact Warlock, which works against your argument.
In Eberron the Half-Orcs are druids and rangers who basically guard the world from alien invasions (I believe from the plane of Xoriat). More than that I see Orcs as creatures of instinct and intuition, their crude behaviour can be attributed to the low intelligence and charisma given to them in previous additions. Half-Orc society has always been very animalistic and tribal, I see no reason this would clash with a wisdom bonus.
This having been said: Str/Wis does set them up for some mean Cleric/Paladin builds, however flavor is more mutable in this edition so that might look more like a tribal shaman warrior type thing for a Half-Orc. And let's not forget the melee ranger build that Orcs would fill out perfectly.
This having been said: Str/Wis alone doesn't make for a particularly inspiring Barbarian build. So I'm thinking the race would get some nice abilities that synergize well with the class. For example the way a Dragonborn's breath weapon synergizes with high Con classes, especially the Fighter.
Another possibility would be to give the character the choice of the orc racial power or an at-will power.
As a note, the drow pc race in FRPG is different from the drow for pc in the back of the MM. So it might be quite different from the orc, as in better. The orc was not really meant to be used as a pc, no matter how much I like them...
Says you. I made a decent case for why they should get a +2 to Wisdom.
And I've made a case why they shouldn't. Hand waving doesn't work.
Again, says you, but that don't make it so.
This is a discussion about what we hope something is. Nothing we say here will change anything.
The way things are is not proof of the way things should be. For all you know those could be coincidences.
Yes, the fact that all the iconic class/race combinations matched mechanically as well as flavorfully is a coincidence.
Also, nice piece of dishonesty there with the Tiefling. Tieflings are not the best choice for an Infernal pact Warlock, which works against your argument.
Where did I say infernal? I just said warlock. 2/3rds of all warlock builds are Cha-based, which the Tiefling fits like a glove.
And I've made a case why they shouldn't. Hand waving doesn't work.
This is a discussion about what we hope something is. Nothing we say here will change anything.
Where did I say it does (any of it, that is)?
Yes, the fact that all the iconic class/race combinations matched mechanically as well as flavorfully is a coincidence.
The funny thing about your attempt at sarcasm is that it probably is a coincidence. Make a race of strong and imposing Dragonmen and chances are that the racial traits you give them will coincide with the classes said race would tend most towards in-game (in this case strong and/or imposing classes). This is no indicator of how it should be, just how it falls into place.
Where did I say infernal? I just said warlock. 2/3rds of all warlock builds are Cha-based, which the Tiefling fits like a glove.
And your "precedent" had to do with races fitting a specific build in all your examples. Tiefling, by what you seem to imply as being "correct fluff," would gravitate towards Infernal pacts. The two have little synergy between them.
Just look at the Dragonborn in the first book.
Look at the Dragonborn, that is your half orc...
I will repeat...
Just look at the Dragonborn in the first book.
Thank you for literally nothing. I'm guessing you are talking about the idea some people had that Dragonborn were replacing Half-Orcs as the "Big Brute" Race. However, your statement doesn't make a damned lick of sense. According to you, apparently Half-Orcs have a breath weapon and know Draconic inherently.
Edit: This is what I get for getting distracted halfway through responding with an MSN conversation.
I would rather keep with the Dragonborn, and leave the Half Orc within the Eberron setting.
"Not even wrong" sound like what is used to prove Global Warming, I am just saying that the Dragonborn is the mechanical study and a look at what the Half Orc will be.
Where did I say it does (any of it, that is)?
You didn't say any of it. You did it. All you did was a hand wave. And in response, I will hand wave you.
No, you're wrong.
How's it feel? Ineffective? That's my point. Hand waving doesn't work. You'll have to do better than "no, you're wrong."
The funny thing about your attempt at sarcasm is that it probably is a coincidence. Make a race of strong and imposing Dragonmen and chances are that the racial traits you give them will coincide with the classes said race would tend most towards in-game (in this case strong and/or imposing classes). This is no indicator of how it should be, just how it falls into place.
And THIS is the crux of the argument. A race having an emphasis on two stats should be the same as a class having an emphasis on two stats -- thus, the two match up. These don't match up. A cleric or paladin being wise represents having a greater sense of the world as a whole, of knowing how to be more effective with less action. It represents pith in it's simplest form. The Half-Orc has none of that by any definition. He has street smarts and the will to survive. The Half-Orc "wisdom" doesn't match the cleric / paladin "wisdom" or even the fighter "wisdom" which, again, is all about leverage, applying force at the right spot to achieve greater results. What you attribute to "wisdom" in the Half-Orc is actually closer to constitution. And so we come full circle: The Half-Orc Cleric doesn't mesh well with the definition of the game, and the idea that Half-Orc is the best race for clerics and paladins is unsettling and wrong.
And your "precedent" had to do with races fitting a specific build in all your examples. Tiefling, by what you seem to imply as being "correct fluff," would gravitate towards Infernal pacts. The two have little synergy between them.
Little synergy? Yes, because +1 to Hit and +1 to Damage on 90% of the Infernal attack powers doesn't function like +2 Con does for them. Could another race do a little better? Yes, it could. But the flavor fits, the mechanics fit. Unlike Half-Orc Paladin.
That would be about the only difference, noble background vs war babies, Breath weapon vs a power about their sturdiness.
I would rather keep with the Dragonborn, and leave the Half Orc within the Eberron setting.
"Not even wrong" sound like what is used to prove Global Warming, I am just saying that the Dragonborn is the mechanical study and a look at what the Half Orc will be.
The only things that are similar between half-orcs and dragonborn is that both get str bonus and both don't look completely human. By that reasoning, Genasi are half-orc replacements also. Oh and can't forget the Bugbears, minotaurs, orcs, longtooth shifts, or warforged. All of them are half-orc replacements.
And THIS is the crux of the argument. A race having an emphasis on two stats should be the same as a class having an emphasis on two stats -- thus, the two match up. These don't match up. A cleric or paladin being wise represents having a greater sense of the world as a whole, of knowing how to be more effective with less action.
Like a Half-Orc knowing when he's not wanted and when to be gone without having to ask.
The Half-Orc has none of that by any definition. He has street smarts and the will to survive. The Half-Orc "wisdom" doesn't match the cleric / paladin "wisdom" or even the fighter "wisdom" which, again, is all about leverage, applying force at the right spot to achieve greater results.
Core disagrees with your narrow definition of Wisdom.
What you attribute to "wisdom" in the Half-Orc is actually closer to constitution.
No. It has nothing to do with Constitution. At all.
And so we come full circle: The Half-Orc Cleric doesn't mesh well with the definition of the game, and the idea that Half-Orc is the best race for clerics and paladins is unsettling and wrong.
Says you. Then there's the TWF Ranger, the Fighter (both of which use both stats to a considerable degree). Oh, and possibly some of the classes in PHB II.
Also, I'm not morally opposed to the idea of a Half-Orc Paladin or Cleric the way you seem to be. Half-Orcs strike me more than most races that could potentially take refuge in religion instead of going on a killing spree.
Little synergy? Yes, because +1 to Hit and +1 to Damage on 90% of the Infernal attack powers doesn't function like +2 Con does for them. Could another race do a little better? Yes, it could. But the flavor fits, the mechanics fit. Unlike Half-Orc Paladin.
The only things that are similar between half-orcs and dragonborn is that both get str bonus and both don't look completely human. By that reasoning, Genasi are half-orc replacements also. Oh and can't forget the Bugbears, minotaurs, orcs, longtooth shifts, or warforged. All of them are half-orc replacements.
They are similar in other ways. Having a rough societal upbringing, being looked on differently than most others (Being non-humaniod), having blood from a stronger monster, and so on...
That would be about the only difference, noble background vs war babies, Breath weapon vs a power about their sturdiness.
I would rather keep with the Dragonborn, and leave the Half Orc within the Eberron setting.
"Not even wrong" sound like what is used to prove Global Warming, I am just saying that the Dragonborn is the mechanical study and a look at what the Half Orc will be.
What do you mean by leave the half-orc in the Eberron setting? I'vs been playing half-orcs since before the original Unearthed Arcana came out for first edition! Very early eighties! When I preorderd the PHB, I thought it would be in there. They make an excellent counterpoint to the half-elf. The half-elf is a halfbreed which receives some problems from some on the elven side and is usually well received by the humans. The half-orc is not well-received by humans, it makes great dynamic within a party. The half-orc has always been an integral part of D&D since first edition and they blew it this time!
They are similar in other ways. Having a rough societal upbringing, being looked on differently than most others (Being non-humaniod), having blood from a stronger monster, and so on...
Rough societal upbringing? That is quite vague and quite difficult to understand. If you mean their society is rough, then dragonborn society is a lot less cut-throat then orc society. If you mean society treats them roughly, then the response is that dragonborn are not treated roughly by the default fluff.Dragonborn aren't looked at strangely by the default fluff, and they are humanoid(and so are half-orcs and ever MM race).
Dragonborn don't have dragon blood, they just look like dragons and have similair characteristics.
Dragonborn don't have dragon blood, they just look like dragons and have similair characteristics.
And have noses like male genitalia.
What do you mean by leave the half-orc in the Eberron setting? I'vs been playing half-orcs since before the original Unearthed Arcana came out for first edition! Very early eighties! When I preorderd the PHB, I thought it would be in there. They make an excellent counterpoint to the half-elf. The half-elf is a halfbreed which receives some problems from some on the elven side and is usually well received by the humans. The half-orc is not well-received by humans, it makes great dynamic within a party. The half-orc has always been an integral part of D&D since first edition and they blew it this time!
I must have started when they went missing...
like the Tiefling in this new edition, the re-introduction of the Half Orc in the previous edition (3rd) was a head scratcher move that really has never been explained.
I think that Eberron has the best place for a CORE Half Orc because the Orc community within the setting is integrated into the human society and has a place within the overall structure of the world map. The old mean Orcs are around, but clash with the new Orcish society that tire of war and fighting.
The background of the Half Orc is more likely to have a better background than one from other settings/CORE, where Orcs are simply monsters like you see in Lord of the Rings.
With the introduction of the Dragonborn race, I saw the replacement for a sore spot in the D&D ecology, the Half Orc. Now, however, it is more likely that it was a ploy to get munchkins to buy the second book for a repeat of the same race with a different name.
Truly, the race is not needed.
Dragonborn aren't looked at strangely by the default fluff, and they are humanoid(and so are half-orcs and ever MM race).
Dragonborn don't have dragon blood, they just look like dragons and have similair characteristics.
They do have a dragon like heritage that is related to the noble beast, and are the vision of the great lizards.
I don't see them integrating within the human society as a quirky gecko selling insurance. They are disenfranchised because of the fall of their "empire" and have no real home to go to. They, as a people, are reluctant to lean on the other societies and most likely have a grudge against the humans.
Hopefully they will be more fleshed out in a future book, using more than one page to tell their tale.
Wisdom fits them to a T, you know, what with them having to survive childhood as monsters and all. Children tend to be weak, and Half-Orcs should be no exception so chances are they'd rather learn to rely on their insight to know when some bad **** is going down and get lost before anything bad happens instead of waiting for it to happen and tolerate the beatings.
The Drow can have really, and I mean REALLY bad upbringings. They have to learn to depend on themselves cause nobody else is going to help them get ahead, especially their goddess, and what does this get them? +cha/dex
They do have a dragon like heritage that is related to the noble beast, and are the vision of the great lizards.
I don't see them integrating within the human society as a quirky gecko selling insurance. They are disenfranchised because of the fall of their "empire" and have no real home to go to. They, as a people, are reluctant to lean on the other societies and most likely have a grudge against the humans.
Hopefully they will be more fleshed out in a future book, using more than one page to tell their tale.
There is a difference between your great^20 grandpa being created by the same god that created dragons and having one of your parents being an orc.
And that is your interpreation, which is quite different then the Ecology of the Dragonborn article(which is far more then a page). By core, the dragonborn are fully accepted into pretty much all areas. If you want to make them pariahs of society, that is your call for your game, but do not act like they are half-orc clones for everyone else if you choose to do so.
Maybe they don't favor either because they're really versatile.
Maybe:
+2 STR, +2 to one of choice
Dual Heritage (counts as both orc and human)
Bonus Feat
Bonus Skill Training
(No bonus at-will)
(No charge bonus)
Someone found the next step of evolution after h0mo sapiens...
The Drow can have really, and I mean REALLY bad upbringings. They have to learn to depend on themselves cause nobody else is going to help them get ahead, especially their goddess, and what does this get them? +cha/dex
You can't tell the difference between being raised as a sociopath and being bullied as a child?
If the half-orc that you have in your mind can't handle bullies, he isn't going to become an adventurer. Running away and hiding from danger might be a good skill if you are a rogue but that would be better served by a dex bonus not wisdom and that's only if he's being raised by orcs. If he's getting bullied by human children, there's going to be some dead human children.
Yeah, cause the people that are raising them are the only one they have to worry about.
Children emulate not only their parents, but all people around them. Grow up in a manipulative and malicious environment and chances are you'll grow up a manipulative and malicious person.
If the half-orc that you have in your mind can't handle bullies, he isn't going to become an adventurer. Running away and hiding from danger might be a good skill if you are a rogue but that would be better served by a dex bonus not wisdom and that's only if he's being raised by orcs.
"Running away and hiding?" More like learning to recognize signs that you're not welcome and be gone before you get killed (because half-orcs will (hopefully) not be overpowered and thus can't handle a mob of humans). If moving to the next town over is your definition of a Dexterity bonus, then go wild and make that argument.
If he's getting bullied by human children, there's going to be some dead human children.
No. Seriously, no. It's one half-orc against a mob of humans. That's how it is when he's a child, and that's how it will be when he's an adult. Fighting will 1) eventually get him killed and is thus not practical, and 2) is utterly counteractive because if he reacts violently then he becomes the monster people believe him to be. Hiding is not practical either because he'll just be found.
Children emulate not only their parents, but all people around them. Grow up in a manipulative and malicious environment and chances are you'll grow up a manipulative and malicious person.
"Running away and hiding?" More like learning to recognize signs that you're not welcome and be gone before you get killed (because half-orcs will (hopefully) not be overpowered and thus can't handle a mob of humans). If moving to the next town over is your definition of a Dexterity bonus, then go wild and make that argument.
No. Seriously, no. It's one half-orc against a mob of humans. That's how it is when he's a child, and that's how it will be when he's an adult. Fighting will 1) eventually get him killed and is thus not practical, and 2) is utterly counteractive because if he reacts violently then he becomes the monster people believe him to be. Hiding is not practical either because he'll just be found.
A half-orc growing up in an orc society is going to be as brutal and savage as the orcs around him.
A half-orc growing up in a human society is going to be shunned, hated, discriminated against, often even by his own mother who sees him as a product of **** and an abomination. A child in that environment is, at best, emotionally stunted, and at worst a sociopath. It's a recipe for just about every psychological disorder in the book. No matter what, though, given his orcish predilection towards violence, a half-orc child in a hostile and racist environment is not going to end up being wise, he is going to end up being angry. Being full of withheld, built up, pent up rage at the world you live in does not translate to a wisdom bonus.
A half-orc growing up in an orc society is going to be as brutal and savage as the orcs around him.
Except smallish and "ugly" and thus probably considered weak (whether that assumption is true or not) and thus bullied.
A half-orc growing up in a human society is going to be shunned, hated, discriminated against, often even by his own mother who sees him as a product of **** and an abomination. A child in that environment is, at best, emotionally stunted, and at worst a sociopath. It's a recipe for just about every psychological disorder in the book. No matter what, though, given his orcish predilection towards violence, a half-orc child in a hostile and racist environment is not going to end up being wise, he is going to end up being angry. Being full of withheld, built up, pent up rage at the world you live in does not translate to a wisdom bonus.
WotC dropped the whole ****-child story, so your argument has no merit. A half-orc will be just as likely to be loved by his own parents as any other child. It's the prejudiced and violent environment that causes them to pay more attention to what is going on around them (as growing up in fear tends to do).
WotC dropped the whole ****-child story, so your argument has no merit. A half-orc will be just as likely to be loved by his own parents as any other child. It's the prejudiced and violent environment that causes them to pay more attention to what is going on around them (as growing up in fear tends to do).
WotC dropped the Half Orc, and the only setting where the situation you describe would be possible is in Eberron.
Orcs are the same, they are monsters, and the background of the Half Orc is always going to have the "**** baby" possibility, even when WotC give other possibilities while trying to deftly avoid the painfully obvious.
The only way to change the background of the race is to either change the name and origin (read, Dragonborn) or to change the Orc into something that it simply can not be.
It matters not what WotC does, this race will always have an obvious background.
WotC dropped the Half Orc
No. Half-orcs will appear in Player's Handbook II.
Orcs are the same, they are monsters, and the background of the Half Orc is always going to have the "**** baby" possibility, even when WotC give other possibilities while trying to deftly avoid the painfully obvious.
That may be, but after it's published, there will be the same possibility of a half-orc **** child as any other.
The only way to change the background of the race is to either change the name and origin (read, Dragonborn) or to change the Orc into something that it simply can not be.
You have been told again and again that Dragonborn are completely different from half-orcs and shown how. Drop it.
Keep in mind, neither TSR or Wizards ever had the CORE write-ups for this race ever mention the horrible background that we talk about, it was just assumed. This won't go away.
Dragonborn is the Brute race for the PHB, just as the Half Orc was in the previous edition, and it is very similar to the former race with it's own history and flavor.
Remember in 3rd edition that all half-elves had a bonus to Diplomacy and Gather Information, because their dual-heritage often made them a bridge between cultures and easy to get a long with and blah blah blah?
Assumptions and leaps are made when it comes to ability scores. The bonus to wisdom just represents a race that grows up facing prejudice (whether by humans or orcs, and regardless of the presence of loving parents). They are more insightful, more perceptive of events, or learn quicker from experience.
I think it's great. It's better than strength and any other combination in my opinion, except constitution (thematically), but that would be boring.
Dwarves have that bonus to wisdom because of their tradition and 'long-view' of things. Half-orcs would have it because they were constantly having to anticipate, avoid, or diffuse situations, out-wit enemies, or improvise when there was no other choice and the odds were against them.
Reading the entry on half-orcs in Races of Destiny really gives you that picture of a being that has been fighting since his earliest days, or facing betrayal at every turn. A bonus to wisdom would really help represent that advantage in know-how against other races. And, it synergizes with the fighter class as a bonus to opportunity attacks and a key ability score for the Shield feats and Polearm Gamble.
Dragonborn is the Brute race for the PHB, just as the Half Orc was in the previous edition, and it is very similar to the former race with it's own history and flavor.
You have an incredibly shallow view on racial shticks. What kind of brute? The "noble warrior" (dragonborn) is way different from the "shunned bastard" (half-orc) is way different from the "giant" (goliath, which incidentally will also appear in PHB II).
No, Eladrin, Elf and Halfling all fit into different classes and all have different role playing applications.
This is even more so the case between the Half-Orc and the Dragonborn, especially when it comes to role playing applications. Being two races with constitution bonuses of course some class overlap will occur (like Paladin if they do get the wis bonus), but the two have radically different role playing angles.
If they go with Str and Wis here are the classes that would synergize especially well:
Melee Paladin. Overlap with Dragonborn.
Melee Cleric. Overlap with Dragonborn (sorta). Can definitely fit the flavour of Half-Orc. How many chieftains have some sort of magical power? Their often mages or have the blessing of their God. They're not conventional pray at the temple preach the word of their God clerics, but they're clerics.
Melee Ranger. No overlap with Dragonborn. Fits Half-Orc flavour perfectly as far as I'm concerned, no explanation required.
Fighter, pretty much any kind. Slight overlap with Dragonborn, only because the Dragonborn's racial synergizes with the class especially well, but I'd still expect a Str/Wis Half-Orc to outclass them. Fits Half-Orc flavour again, pretty much to a T.
1/2 orc
+2 Con +2 Wis
+2 Endurance, +2 Insight
Dual Heritage (counts as both orc and human)
Bonus Feat
+1 Intiative
+1 square move on charges
can second wind as a minnor action
Keep in mind, neither TSR or Wizards ever had the CORE write-ups for this race ever mention the horrible background that we talk about, it was just assumed. This won't go away.
Dragonborn is the Brute race for the PHB, just as the Half Orc was in the previous edition, and it is very similar to the former race with it's own history and flavor.
thaX,
I'm not sure (beyond the "horrible background" you often cite) what your problem with half-orcs is. They've been a part of the D&D mythos since the advanced players handbook was released back in 1978.
Many of my players (most of my time is spent GMing) enjoyed playing the race, be it as a noble savage, an anti-hero or as someone struggling to overcome their monstrous upbringing. (As a side note, in more than one of my campaign worlds, orcs - and all the other humanoid races for that matter -aren't evil by default. It varies from person to person and tribe to tribe).
If you don't like the half-orc, the by all means exclude them from any campaign you run (I didn't allow full blood elven characters in one world). But please try and refrain from this pointless vendetta.
Always remember that it's the open ended nature of D&D that make it such a great game, whether you role-play or roll-play or have half orcs or not.
Later
They do have a dragon like heritage that is related to the noble beast, and are the vision of the great lizards.
I don't see them integrating within the human society as a quirky gecko selling insurance. They are disenfranchised because of the fall of their "empire" and have no real home to go to. They, as a people, are reluctant to lean on the other societies and most likely have a grudge against the humans.
Hopefully they will be more fleshed out in a future book, using more than one page to tell their tale.
Uh, no. They do not have a grudge against humans. Pretty much all your views of the Dragonborn as they relate to society are completely contradicted by all the fluff in 4th edition.
WotC dropped the Half Orc, and the only setting where the situation you describe would be possible is in Eberron.
Orcs are the same, they are monsters, and the background of the Half Orc is always going to have the "**** baby" possibility, even when WotC give other possibilities while trying to deftly avoid the painfully obvious.
The only way to change the background of the race is to either change the name and origin (read, Dragonborn) or to change the Orc into something that it simply can not be.
It matters not what WotC does, this race will always have an obvious background.
Riiiiiiiight . . . . tell that to Forgotten Realms, where there's a kingdom of Orcs trying to become civilized . . .
My main problem is what they had become after the absence in the 2nd edition, a dumb muscle bound illiterate strong guy that beats up people and talks like Mungo from Blazing Saddles.
It isn't the write up that was in the previous edition's entry, but people preconceptions on what the character's should be. It won't change with the delayed release, and the munchkin min/maxing will be in full force, or at least they will try.
Wizard's avoided all this by replacing him with the Dragonborn, but it seems no one was "fooled."
Str and Con bonuses for the Half Orc.
I still don't see how the scale covered Dragonborn got a bonus to CHA.
Half Orcs are not wise, nor intelligent. A bonus to Wis wouldn't fit this race (didn't it get a negitive in both INT and WIS in the previous edition?)
They got a penalty to Intelligence and Charisma. Incidentally, Wisdom, as we modern people define it, is basically just simple rationality. Wisdom is feeling.
Str and Con bonuses for the Half Orc.
I think that's what goliaths are getting. Not that it should matter, but it's sort of a boring combination.
Half Orcs are not wise, nor intelligent. A bonus to Wis wouldn't fit this race (didn't it get a negitive in both INT and WIS in the previous edition?)
How can you say that a wisdom bonus wouldn't fit the race? Every race got changed from 3rd to 4th edition.
Dwarves are now wiser and more charismatic. Elves are tougher and also wiser. Humans now also have a bonus to some ability score.
Orcs had a -2 penalty to intelligence, wisdom, and charisma in 3rd edition. Every last one of these penalties was dropped in 4th edition, meaning that the 4th edition orc is now smarter, wiser, and more charismatic. Further, it means there is no reason for the half-orc to be arbitrarily dim-witted or dull.
Str and Con bonuses for the Half Orc.
The half-orc is an orc mixed with a human. It may not be as strong or tough as a full-blooded orc.
Also, it is boring.
I still don't see how the scale covered Dragonborn got a bonus to CHA.
Because the scales have nothing to do with it. It is their own force of personality, the presence they command when they enter a room. They are a race with the blood of dragons, and carry themselves in an appropriate way.
Being of mixed heritage and facing prejudice helps someone to see the bigger picture often times. They see beyond the petty issues that other people have, and develop a better insight, an awareness that there is often more than meets the eye. I think a bonus to wisdom can indeed fit the orc race if they develop the race in that manner.
This is generalization of course, but that is what we're discussing here anyways.
Secondly, you refuse to acknowledge that while Orcs certainly have a tendency towards aggressive and violent behavior that does not make them all monsters. Ebberron is not the only setting in which at least some Orcs have chosen to follow a different path. Faerunian Orcs are doing much the same thing (although with some difficulties). As the years have gone on, races have become less pigeonholed and have become more than simply walking bags of exp. This is a good thing because it encourages role-playing by causing players to think about whether it's necessarily "good" to clear Orcs out of the nearby dungeon. It also gives DM's additional ways of presenting Orcs in their campaigns-in addition to the classic brutish monster you can have a race that while savage and often violent is attempting to pull itself out of the "dark ages".
Races as cardboard cutouts are bad mmmmkay? :P
Orcs are really Klingons, I never knew.
Most typical Orcs are at war with someone in most homebrew settings, or are likely the raiders that are making trouble with the trade routes from town to town. Lord of the Rings doesn't have then forming alliances with the humans.
Specific settings are a different matter, of course, with a specific background of getting beyond the typical Orc warfare and seeing the wisdom of parley with the other races so that they are not continually beat on. Eberron has the best background, having a complete nation they have taken over.
Every race has the potential that you mention, but that is individual NPC's that would be used, not typical encounters or a group as a whole. Kobold's have gotten pretty popular at the waning days of the previous edition, starting with the shoddy writeup of the Sorcerer with the bloodline mention that got turned into a class feature in later books, and they were actually getting pretty cool before the switch over.
Half Orcs are not wise, nor intelligent. A bonus to Wis wouldn't fit this race (didn't it get a negitive in both INT and WIS in the previous edition?)
Str and Con bonuses for the Half Orc.
I still don't see how the scale covered Dragonborn got a bonus to CHA.
Because the Dragonborn are powerful and imposing, have a great force of presence, and are strong of will - all things covered by Charisma.
Because the Dragonborn are powerful and imposing, have a great force of presence, and are strong of will - all things covered by Charisma.
Very good. My main concern is the appearance. It seems that the chance to have COM in as a seventh stat died with the introduction of the previous edition. The separation that other systems have seems an enigma to the D&D development.
Charisma and Comeliness being together as they are, it is difficult to have one as the defining characteristic while the other is left hanging.
Thus my question as to why the Dragonborn had the stat bonus to CHA.
There is no mention of physical appearance thus Charisma doesn't measure it/is not a necessary aspect of Charisma.
I think that's what goliaths are getting. Not that it should matter, but it's sort of a boring combination.
Nice....
So why are we getting the Half Orc again?
I am just looking at the array for the race and see that of six stats, only two are obvious for the bonus. Dex is certainly out, and CHA is certainly not a Half Orc trait. With INT and WIS out, it only leaves STR and CON.
So are we having two races with STR and CON, or is the Half Orc getting a change in the crossover into the new edition, making them prophets or wise men?
That is the question to be asked.
So they have strength/hardiness: STR or CON. Pretty self explanatory.
Also cunning and ambition: WIS or INT. Wisdom since that can lead into ambition since Wisdom measures your perception, self-discipline, common sense, etc. so that can help in being cunning. INT can also play a roll in being cunning since it measures a characters ability to reason which is important in being cunning and ambitious.
Half Orcs are not wise, nor intelligent. A bonus to Wis wouldn't fit this race (didn't it get a negitive in both INT and WIS in the previous edition?)
Wait didn't Tieflings get a negative Cha in the PREVIOUS Edition?
Nice....
So why are we getting the Half Orc again?
Because I took a folding chair into WotC headquarters and beat Scott Rouse over the head repeatedly until he gave in.
I am just looking at the array for the race and see that of six stats, only two are obvious for the bonus. Dex is certainly out, and CHA is certainly not a Half Orc trait. With INT and WIS out, it only leaves STR and CON.
You may not rule out Wisdom until you refute my argument that it makes sense.
So are we having two races with STR and CON, or is the Half Orc getting a change in the crossover into the new edition, making them prophets or wise men?
That is the question to be asked.
"Prophets and wise men?" I think you mean "straw man."
Get it?
Str Con - Goliath
Str Dex - ...
Str Int - Genasi
Str Wis - Shifter (isn't this confirmed?)
Str Cha - Dragonborn
So either half-orcs double up with Shifters, or they only have a Str bonus, with some good other powers. The statement in the barbarian preview indicates that they don't get bonuses to Con or Cha, as those would push them towards one of the barbarian builds. I can't really imagine them getting Dex or Int.
I don't see any particular reason why there couldn't be races with stat bonuses other than +2. I like that there aren't race penalties atm, that mostly just encourages min/maxing.
Very good. My main concern is the appearance. It seems that the chance to have COM in as a seventh stat died with the introduction of the previous edition. The separation that other systems have seems an enigma to the D&D development.
Charisma and Comeliness being together as they are, it is difficult to have one as the defining characteristic while the other is left hanging.
Thus my question as to why the Dragonborn had the stat bonus to CHA.
Charisma has nothing to do with appearance. It hasn't had anything to do with appearance since the end of 2nd edition.
Charisma has nothing to do with appearance. It hasn't had anything to do with appearance since the end of 2nd edition.
Actually, Charisma DOES have to do with attractivness, just attractivness isnt only limited to Charisma as Charisma is the ability to influence others. Definition below.
-Noun
a personal attractiveness or interestingness that enables you to influence others
Wait didn't Tieflings get a negative Cha in the PREVIOUS Edition?
And had a bonus to charisma in the edition before (+1 cha in 2e)...
I wouldn't be surprised if half-orcs had a bonus to wisdom or any mental stat in this edition.
Actually, Charisma DOES have to do with attractivness, just attractivness isnt only limited to Charisma as Charisma is the ability to influence others. Definition below.
-Noun
a personal attractiveness or interestingness that enables you to influence others
Let me rephrase that: The DnD Charisma ability score has nothing to do with appearance.
Nice....
I am just looking at the array for the race and see that of six stats, only two are obvious for the bonus. Dex is certainly out, and CHA is certainly not a Half Orc trait. With INT and WIS out, it only leaves STR and CON.
So are we having two races with STR and CON, or is the Half Orc getting a change in the crossover into the new edition, making them prophets or wise men?
That is the question to be asked.
Obviously because so many people are disagreeing with your point of view, wisdom is not entirely ruled out. Ruled out by you perhaps, but not everyone. Since we have no official ruling from the Devs, and that both opinions seem common it is well within reason to assume that it's -POSSIBLE- that they hold either opinion.
Because we can assume they hold one or the other with no confirmation in either direction a bonus to wisdom is obviously not ruled out.
Some overlap is possible between races, so I wouldn't be surprised to see either, though I've made clear my hopes for the race.
At this point we know for sure that Warforged have the +2 str/con bonus.
I doubt very much that both Goliath and Half-Orc will have the +2 str/con bonus, as even though some overlap is alright that is quite a bit of overlap at 3 races with the same bonus.
So, I think that between Goliath and Half-Orc both combinations of stat modifiers could be made to fit. To me, the hulking 7 foot tall mountain man Goliath gives me more of a "tough as nails" impression, however I could see a strong case being made for the wisdom bonus given their tradition steeped peaceful society (as I understand it).
On the other hand, Half-Orcs have always been the traditional Barbarian race, so the con bonus fits the history. The wisdom bonus seems more of a new thing, the hardened half-orc who knows how to read people. He knows when things are about to go south, when bad situations are cropping up all that jazz. More than that, Half-Orcs have learned to be freaking stubborn, an iron will if you will. Living in the gutters, the lowest of the low has built in the Half-Orcs an indomitable sense of will, an unbreakable spirit and a willingness to survive and persevere that goes beyond being able to take a hit well. It's the refusal to give up and the ability to use ones resources.
So, I think either combination fits either race, but what I think it's really going to come down to is marketing. WoTC seems to be taking Half-Orcs in a new direction. While "Thog the Barbarian" is a well known arch-type, it's not a very popular one. I've never seen a player play a half-orc, largely because in previous editions they weren't that interesting because very few players wanted to play a stupid character. WoTC seems to have acknowledged this and wants to change the stereo-type at least in some ways and this is why I would bet on a Str/Wis Half-Orc instead of a Str/Con.
I don't know that I'll be right, but I'd think Str/Wis a safer bet.
So, give Goliaths +2 Str/Con, make them Large, and maybe combine their size with a racial power.
Make half orcs +2 Str/Wis, since no other combination seems to fit, IMO, and maybe they'll finally get the opportunity at a decent Will save
Odder things have happened...
Alpha Dork...
My main problem is what they had become after the absence in the 2nd edition, a dumb muscle bound illiterate strong guy that beats up people and talks like Mungo from Blazing Saddles.
It isn't the write up that was in the previous edition's entry, but people preconceptions on what the character's should be. It won't change with the delayed release, and the munchkin min/maxing will be in full force, or at least they will try.
Wizard's avoided all this by replacing him with the Dragonborn, but it seems no one was "fooled."
I'm still trying to figure out this absence thing. Half-orcs were in first, second, third and 3.5 ed PHBs, never were they an add in.
Second, in the Forgotten Realms a wizard named Thay opened a portal to a world controlled by Grey Orc empires. these Grey orcs had tremendous clerics and had a bonus to strength and charisma. Since the portal got closed, they were cut-off from home and eventually degenerated into barbarism. they still make great clerics, their favored class in 3.5 ed.
In the north of the FR in 3rd edition, a great orc named Obould led a horde but decided toconsolidate his claims rather than burn out the horde. 100 years later in game time the kingdom still stands.
In the east of the FR, in Thesk, the evil Zhentarim sent an orc army as their contribution to stopping the Tuigan horde. When the Tuigan horde was defeated, many of the orcs took their opportunity to escape the Zhentarim clutches and became squatters in Thesk. They were received well for their part in defeating the horde. 100 years later Thesk is the largest concentration of orc-bloods in the FR. Although treated as a puppet, the suzerain of Thesk is a female orc. Even if not fully in control, being the suzerain of one of the most important trade centers in the Fr is remarkable.
Before the spellplague, in Palischuk of the FR, a group of half-orcs had restored a fortress in Vaasa and began trading peaceably with their neighbors, even dwarves. Its population was about 10,000.
So, I believe it is unfair to imply that they could never accomplish anything because they never have.
And I will go back to races of destiny which goes into great detail about them often being self-reliant, loners and survivors. Those are traits that lead to building wisdom.
Look at the half-elf. A union between a dexterous and wise race and a wild-card race always produces a tough and charismatic child. Make sense? Not really.
But, any human progeny has the potential to be stronger, more dexterous, tougher, smarter, wiser, or more charismatic than usual.
It seems when this randomness interacts with the elven bloodline, the result is a tough and charismatic half-elf.
It could be the same with the half-orc. There may be no reason for the half-orc to be inherently wise, except that it is the way human and orc blood interacts when a human and an orc have a child together. The result is a strong and wise half-orc.
Just some more musings.
Half-Orcs should get +2 CON, +2 CHA.
The Barbarian Playtest says that Half-Orcs do not favor either the Rageblood (STR/CON) or Thaneborn (STR/CHA) path. Therefore, unless the designers have no idea what they're talking about (and which case we can't trust anything they say), Half-Orcs will either get +2 CON, 2 CHA or +2 STR, +2 (Something other than CON or CHA).
I think that +2 CON is good for representing the Orc heritage, as (according to the Forgotten Realms) they inherit "strength and hardiness" from the Orc parent, and +2 CHA is good at simulating Human heritage, as they get "cunning and ambition" from the Human parent.
Also, the only options besides +2 CON, +2 CHA (according to the Barbarian playtest) are STR + DEX, INT or WIS.
DEX... probably not. DEX isn't especially useful for Barbarians, and there's no mention of it in the FRPG.
INT... arguments could be made that it's the "cunning" from the FRPG, but again, not really useful for a Barbarian and I feel CHA is a better match as a mental stat.
WIS... see INT for my thoughts, as they're virtually the same for both. People have been arguing about how it could be WIS the whole thread, but WIS actually hurts an Thaneblood Barbarian, as their secondary stat is CHA and it makes a WIS bonus nearly useless except for qualifying for feats.
This was mentioned before (I forget who said it), but I think they had the right idea.
Half-Orcs should get +2 CON, +2 CHA.
The Barbarian Playtest says that Half-Orcs do not favor either the Rageblood (STR/CON) or Thaneborn (STR/CHA) path. Therefore, unless the designers have no idea what they're talking about (and which case we can't trust anything they say), Half-Orcs will either get +2 CON, 2 CHA or +2 STR, +2 (Something other than CON or CHA).
If they got +2 Constitution and +2 Charisma, then they'd favor both paths like half-elves do. They favor neither, meaning that they don't get a bonus to either stat.
People have been arguing about how it could be WIS the whole thread, but WIS actually hurts an Thaneblood Barbarian, as their secondary stat is CHA and it makes a WIS bonus nearly useless except for qualifying for feats.
What kind of backwards logic is that? A bonus doesn't hurt. Ever. It's logically impossible.
I'm still trying to figure out this absence thing. Half-orcs were in first, second, third and 3.5 ed PHBs, never were they an add in.
Second Edition does not have them... not in the PHB.
The transition between 1st and 2nd was sort of like the switch between 3.0 and 3.5. It didn't have a clear, defined cut like this switch between 3.5 and the newest edition.
I never had them in my settings, and am hard pressed to see any positive reason to include them now that would offset the negative past they would bring.
It was one of the most confusing things I first saw when I opened my new 3.0 book (with the cd in the back). "Why is there half orcs in the race selections..."
If they got +2 Constitution and +2 Charisma, then they'd favor both paths like half-elves do. They favor neither, meaning that they don't get a bonus to either stat.
What kind of backwards logic is that? A bonus doesn't hurt. Ever. It's logically impossible.
The same kind of logic that says that they can favor both paths. They have to pick one.
I guess the bonus to WIS doesn't hurt, exactly, but it doesn't do anything for them either. It's basically a dump stat for a Thaneblood Babarian unless they really care about perception.
Also, in a really odd turn of events, the playtest article says Half-Elves favor Thaneborn Barbarian. Probably not due to ability scores, since they get +2 CON +2 CHA.
On that note, I'm guessing Half-Orcs will be either +2 CON +2 CHA or +2 STR +2 WIS. I'm thinking it could go either way, but I favor CON and CHA for Half-Orc. It makes more since to me.
Second Edition does not have them... not in the PHB.
Thats right, they where deleted in reaction to the out cry by the moral majority/ religious right along with the Assassin and other things that caused controversy.They returned only when management at TSR changed.
The transition between 1st and 2nd was sort of like the switch between 3.0 and 3.5. It didn't have a clear, defined cut like this switch between 3.5 and the newest edition.
thats a dead on analogy, most 1st ed players just used the 1st ed 1/2 orc till 2nd ed had them.
I never had them in my settings, and am hard pressed to see any positive reason to include them now that would offset the negative past they would bring.
Thats cool, just understand that some of us like them and can't imagine D&D with out them.
It was one of the most confusing things I first saw when I opened my new 3.0 book (with the cd in the back). "Why is there half orcs in the race selections..."
Look it's simple, everyone who was around from before the release of 2nd new that the 1/2 orc's removal was for political and not game reasons. It marked the division between a gamer driven company and a profit driven company. When 2nd ed happened there was a exodus from D&D / T$R and rise of new RPG's. The 1/2 orcs return to core in 3rd marked a WotC as a gamer driven company. 4th ed WotC is a company that is conflicted, there appearers to be two competing visions of how WotC should go and they keep tripping each other up. It gives me hope that the gamer driven part of company may yet come out on top but only a little.
STR is a given... it is one of the main reasons for a munchkin to play a Half Orc.
Never was or needed to be a munchkin to play a Half Orc!! But +2 STR is a given.
the possibility's as I see them are
1) +2 STR and punker racial traits : the human twist 2 to 1
2) +2 STR and +2 CON : the orc twist 2 to 1
3) +2 STR and +2 WIS : the community solution 3 to 1
4) +2 STR and +2 DEX : the traditional role solution 5 to 1
5) +2 STR and +2 INT : as likely as hell freezing over 20 to 1
6) +2 STR and +2 CHA : the curve ball 10 to 1
I rally hope 4e 1/2 orc = ranger/rogue/assassin rather than barbarian
STR is a given... it is one of the main reasons for a munchkin to play a Half Orc.
Ummmmmm . . . . no.
STR is a given... it is one of the main reasons for a munchkin to play a Half Orc.
What are you talking about? Half the stuff you type doesn't make any sense.
thats why I think +2 STR and +2 DEX might be a good fit it reinforces the roles 1/2 orc have played in the past.
I don't have experience with any edition before 3rd edition. In 3rd edition, the role that the half-orc often filled was that of barbarian. And I don't see how a dexterity bonus helps to reinforce that.
WIS makes 1/2 orcs excellent clerics, reasonable paladins and can push future classes such as the druid in to the picture in a way I'm not completely comfortable with.
It would also make the half-orc a good polearm fighter, a good pit fighter, and a good opportunity attacker.
I also don't see what's wrong with the half-orc fitting the druid role well.
The classes we have right now are fine for the +2 WIS but future WIS based classes are of concern.
Would you be able to elaborate on this. I'm just not sure what the concern is exactly.
However I can see that +2 STR and +2 DEX may be a bit over powered and would play into the hands of munchkins but is it any worse than any other class/races optimization?
What is overpowered about a +2 strength and dexterity? And why do we care what 'munchkins' do?
+2 Strength and Constitution. Similar to their Orcish kin, the human side will be derived more from other racial bonuses.
+2 Strength and Wisdom. Brutes like Orcs, but with a tad more sensibility. Other racial bonuses, something combat based something skill based.
+2 Constitution and Wisdom. Hardy and more capable in nature. I assume wisdom as intuitive understanding, as opposed to pragmatic.
Dexterity to me makes some sense, but not enough. I don't imagine orcs being terribly agile. Charisma, while I can barely see this as being more of a "presence" I don't think half-orcs have enough to garner a +2. Intelligence, just no.
Also, I do hope you continue to bicker up until the release of these stats, it's just too funny.
Wisdom is very likely, for many of the reasons listed here so far. Are orcs or humans particularly wise? No, but nature doesn't have everything to do with an individual. Growing up in a - and this is a BROAD generalization - prejudiced society one way or the other will force a child to learn to use common sense to adapt to various situations and grow up fairly stable. I see half-orcs as having to use both their physical prowess and prudence to survive their childhoods in as "normal" a way possible...be it by acting more human or orcish.
Also, let's take a look at corresponding skills, since they are also really important to consider for ability score boosts.
Wisdom helps determine Dungeoneering, Heal, Insight, Nature, and Perception. Now, Dungeoneering and Heal don't fit right of the bat, true. However, Insight is vastly important for a half-orc growing up around other people, as it allows him to read others intentions. Perception is likewise important, as it reflects their ability to spot trouble before it gets to them. Nature is meh...but if half-orcs are being aimed as a good race for Druids (which I think they are) it makes perfect sense. Heal could be grouped with the "if Druid" skills, too.
As far as the other ability scores go, I just don't see them fitting as well as Strength or Wisdom.
Constitution: Toughness is certainly important for a half-orc, but like I stated earlier, I think Strength is far more iconic and relevant for them. Also, it looks like the Goliath might be a Str/Con race, and it wouldn't make much sense to have two of those in the same book.
Dexterity: I really don't see this happening. COULD it make sense? Yeah, sure...but we should just call it the bugbear.
Intelligence: Once again, COULD it work? Yeah, but It doesn't seem likely. I don't really have a firm argument against it...it just doesn't seem likely.
Charisma: A possibility, to be sure. The whole developmental side to my argument could benefit from a higher than average Charisma, allowing the young half-orc to bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate his way through life. However, I'm more inclined to think Wisdom benefits him more with the ability to perceive dangers and hostilities better.
My two cents, take as you will.
What kind of backwards logic is that? A bonus doesn't hurt. Ever. It's logically impossible.
Barbarians can train perception at first level. A bonus to Wisdom is thus EXCELLENT for either barbarian build.
+2 STR +2 WIS Fits the best to me, although it will make them out shine dwarves as defenders.
Not really. Dwarves are the tanky hammer or axe fighters, whereas a +2 Str/+2 Wis Half-Orc would have a more versatile weapon selection and it would gravitate to 2H weapons for flavor reasons.
Look it's simple, everyone who was around from before the release of 2nd new that the 1/2 orc's removal was for political and not game reasons. It marked the division between a gamer driven company and a profit driven company. When 2nd ed happened there was a exodus from D&D / T$R and rise of new RPG's. The 1/2 orcs return to core in 3rd marked a WotC as a gamer driven company. 4th ed WotC is a company that is conflicted, there appearers to be two competing visions of how WotC should go and they keep tripping each other up. It gives me hope that the gamer driven part of company may yet come out on top but only a little.
The political reasons for the removal was only part of the consideration, though to be pressured like that from the parents that wanted something to blame for their own lack of parenting skills was a major let down.
The 1st edition Half Orc was overpowered within Second Edition changes (such as they were) and didn't get much better when the optional rules for it came in a later 2nd edition book.
The Assassin was overpowered in 1st edition and an excuse to fight with other player characters for the player, which broke up a lot of games.
Thanks btw, for the kudos.
I think it would have worked so much better within the Eberron setting instead, give the race a purpose and a better chance of a better history. Having him in the generic rule set has the unfortunate history of his past between the warring factions from each side of his parentage come up full force.
I still think it is a repeat of a race already in the first PHB, though the Dragonborn has a noble past that is broken instead of a war between parent's factions. If the Half Orc has to be in a PHB, I would have rather have him in the first, get it over with, instead of giving some of us a false hope that it was gone for good.
I don't have experience with any edition before 3rd edition. In 3rd edition, the role that the half-orc often filled was that of barbarian.
3rd ed got the 1/2 orc wrong, the designers concentrated on the "Grog kill it" archetype and forgot the 1st /2nd ed sneaky/dirty fighter/rogue archetype. We could do more with the 3rd ed 1/2 orc but it was always a mechanical sub optimal decision. The hit to INT was deadly on 1/2 orc skill based characters, not that it wasn't done, just that you had to be ready to take a hit to play against the meat shield archetype.
And I don't see how a dexterity bonus helps to reinforce that.
barbarians don't benefit from Dex? so ranged combat,the bonus to REF, AC and skills don't help a barbarians?
It would also make the half-orc a good polearm fighter, a good pit fighter, and a good opportunity attacker.
yes thats true, but there are good builds for most stats
I also don't see what's wrong with the half-orc fitting the druid role well.
but as well as a Elf? maybe, maybe not
Would you be able to elaborate on this. I'm just not sure what the concern is exactly.
any new classes, the ones that no one knows about that might use WIS as a key stat and not fit the feel of the 1/2 orc. admittedly its a quibble on my part, I'm just more comfortable with a physical stat.
What is overpowered about a +2 strength and dexterity? And why do we care what 'munchkins' do?
It synergies so well with certainty classes that some might think it overpowered. As for 'munchkins' well I don't but some do.
The political reasons for the removal was only part of the consideration, though to be pressured like that from the parents that wanted something to blame for their own lack of parenting skills was a major let down. .
I don't think most parents read there kids D&D books now or then and thats to bad. theres a bit of the "which came first the chicken or the egg" going on but from my perspective it started with so called religious leaders and a media that took those views to unchallenged to the public.
The 1st edition Half Orc was overpowered within Second Edition changes (such as they were) and didn't get much better when the optional rules for it came in a later 2nd edition book. .
1st edition Half Orc was arguably overpowered in both editions but I would not say that it was only in second ed.
The Assassin was overpowered in 1st edition and an excuse to fight with other player characters for the player, which broke up a lot of games..
yes it was but if you think that thats why it was removed I must disagree
Thanks btw, for the kudos. .
your welcome
I think it would have worked so much better within the Eberron setting instead, give the race a purpose and a better chance of a better history. Having him in the generic rule set has the unfortunate history of his past between the warring factions from each side of his parentage come up full force. .
the fact is they never had a history was the mistake that they made and one 4th ed will hopefully rectify
I still think it is a repeat of a race already in the first PHB, though the Dragonborn has a noble past that is broken instead of a war between parent's factions..
don't see the connection but thats just me
If the Half Orc has to be in a PHB, I would have rather have him in the first, get it over with, instead of giving some of us a false hope that it was gone for good.
sorry to smash your hopes but I'm glade that they did;)
I liked the evil alignment restriction of the Prestige Class in the previous edition, and that the "shadow assassin" in this new edition is something of a name only type of set instead of the evil persona that the previous classes were.
The half orc having a new beginning and a better history would mean that the Orc would be something other than the monsters they are. Some here already have mentioned other things about this and that, but to change the Orc to something else would mean that they are no longer "Orcs" and would only have the name in common with the past entry.
To be honest, after this second book there is gonna be a shortage of races for the future books to include. There is likely to be more monster races in the future that will make the Half Orc seem like a human in comparison.
Well we have already seen a change in the view of Orcs. Just like how Goblins went from just being another monster to being ones accepted in towns, being tricky merchants, etc. We have seen Orcs change form just tribes and such to forming actual kingdoms like in FR.
I think in general there is a surge toward having monsters being more then just "kill, smash, destroy" and bring them into much more of a grey. We have seen this in the Chromatic Dragons for example.
I think there will be plenty of races that won't be "monsters", in the following books. I think in the majority will be a nice split.
I believe the Assassin was removed simply because it should not have been a player character class in the first place.
You know I was just looking at my 1st ed PHB and aside from the assignation mechanic it was a pretty solid class balance wise more versatile than a fighter less skillful than a thief. At one time I played a 1/2 orc fighter/assassin that was a executioner and used the assassination table to represent beheading of his prisoner, If he failed to make his assassination roll then it was a messy affair and a job badly done.
The half orc having a new beginning and a better history would mean that the Orc would be something other than the monsters they are. Some here already have mentioned other things about this and that, but to change the Orc to something else would mean that they are no longer "Orcs" and would only have the name in common with the past entry..
From what we've been shown so far the 4th ed 1/2 orc will be more a genetic throw back than unwanted off spring, so as to distance the mingling of blood lines to the past.
To be honest, after this second book there is gonna be a shortage of races for the future books to include. There is likely to be more monster races in the future that will make the Half Orc seem like a human in comparison.
your probably right about that.
Couldn't you make a point that the Half-orc is a shoe-in for many of the primal classes we have yet to see (druid is confirmed and shaman has been hinted at). For these classes Wisdom would probably be a primary statistic.
Yes you could and are likely right but I'm not convinced thats the way the designers chose to go. Flavor wise 4th ed steals heavily from 1st ed, not that this should surprise us as most of the designers are my age and cut are teeth on AD&D.
3rd ed got the 1/2 orc wrong, the designers concentrated on the "Grog kill it" archetype and forgot the 1st /2nd ed sneaky/dirty fighter/rogue archetype. We could do more with the 3rd ed 1/2 orc but it was always a mechanical sub optimal decision. The hit to INT was deadly on 1/2 orc skill based characters, not that it wasn't done, just that you had to be ready to take a hit to play against the meat shield archetype.
I guess it is a matter of what edition or style of half-orc people want to see. You like the 1st edition half-orc over the 3rd edition half-orc. I don't particularly like either (from what you've told me of the 1st edition version).
This is a new edition, so they may not be trying to replicate the previous half-orcs. To be honest, I hope they don't.
It seems that more and more the 'monstrous' races are becoming less monstrous. I happen to like this, since it doesn't prevent a DM from using a monstrous race in a savage, feral, barbarian-horde sort of way. But at the same time, it doesn't prevent a player from playing one and actually having a decent character.
In this new edition, with a new take on races, I'd like to see the strong and cunning half-orc.
barbarians don't benefit from Dex? so ranged combat,the bonus to REF, AC and skills don't help a barbarians?
I did not say that barbarians do not benefit from a good dexterity score. Not knowing what previous roles you were referring to, I could only go with the barbarian of 3rd edition. You said that a bonus to dexterity would reinforce the role that half-orcs have played. A bonus to dexterity does not *reinforce* the barbarian role.
This is irrelevant now though since it is clear you were referring to the 1st edition rogue-type half-orc.
but as well as a Elf? maybe, maybe not
Meh. Some races are just better at certain classes than others. This edition is changing things a bit. Maybe we shouldn't go into it with preconceptions held over from previous editions.
Hmmm... on second thought, that's not fair for me to say. I would more than likely be upset if the 4th edition half-orc didn't at least have a bonus to either strength or constitution.
I guess it is a matter of what edition or style of half-orc people want to see. You like the 1st edition half-orc over the 3rd edition half-orc. I don't particularly like either (from what you've told me of the 1st edition version).
That cool, I'm just trying to add to the conversation.:D 3rd ed got rid of class restrictions, level limits and stat min/maximums based on race, so the designers gave the -2 to int and cha to keep 1/2 orc's out of arcane classes and justified it as a balance to a +2 STR.
With the removal of the assassin the 1/2 orc was left without a raison d'etre , enter that popular Unearthed Arcana human only class the barbarian. they all so decided to push the orc side of there heritage rather then the "Superior 10%" of 1st ed. look I can understand the push for the orc over the 1/2 orc for the 3rd ed 1/2 orc really was just a PC orc. Mostly I'm trying to push for a more 1/2 orcish half-orc, one that is not gimped and pigeon holed into any one role as it was in 3rd ed, 4th ed has so far succeeded in being reasonably well balanced, I'm hopeful that won't change with the 1/2 orc.
Well, it's confirmed. The Half-Orc is STR/DEX, based on the preview Delve I did at NYC Comic Con. I'm not sure how I feel about that. I'll just have to wait and see how the book explains how that happened.
Got picture/proof of this?
The backwards math of DnD XP left Wis/Dex in the air.
STR 14
CON 13
DEX 16
INT 11
WIS 16
CHA 10
If you subtract 2 from STR and one of the 16-stats, you fit the 22 point-buy. I did the math, then remembered it wrong when I got to my computer. Still, this narrows the field to STR and WIS or DEX. Given that info, I think the other stat will be WIS.
Once again, sorry I jumped the gun.
DreamStalker the 1/2 orc is mentioned in the Barbarian Playtest as not favouring ether of the two builds mentioned in the Playtest.
Looking over the Half-Orc Avenger Character sheet a few the skill bonuses appear to be Endurance and Intimidate.
I think Dex is more interesting and entertaining, as we only have the one other, but I understand that this is hardly a reason to make it so.
One Other Str/Dex race? As we have a lot of Dex/X races. Really if Shifters come out as Str/Wis then Half Orc will be Str/Dex else I think they will be Str/Wis. I think Str/Wis is a good way to make them different from a monster race boosting two physical stats (Orc/Minotaur/Bugbear).
I was responding to my assumption of Shifters being Str/Wis, along with Dex/Wis. Kinda hoping that they'll use both forms of shifters in.
I would be surprised, I need to figure out which classes referenced the shifters. It would clue us into which version we will see.
I would be surprised, I need to figure out which classes referenced the shifters. It would clue us into which version we will see.
The bit about races in the Avenger pages (photos linked in various other threads around here) pretty much confirms that razorclaw shifters will still be Dex/Wis (as they are in the MM). And the fact that they specifically write razorclaw in that context implies that other shifters will not be exactly the same (like how longtooth in the MM are Str/Wis).
I firmly believe that they are Str/Dex.
Good Rangers, Fighters, Rogues.
Martial > Divine/Primal.
If the half-orc were Str/Wis the avenger sample half-orc would have 18 Wisdom.
I firmly believe that they are Str/Dex.
Good Rangers, Fighters, Rogues.
Martial > Divine/Primal.
Why?
If you subtract two each from strength and wisdom you are left with one of the starting ability arrays. Whether the +2 is wisdom or dex it still gives the same starting stats.
Why?
If you subtract two each from strength and wisdom you are left with one of the starting ability arrays. Whether the +2 is wisdom or dex it still gives the same starting stats.
Have you seen the avenger pages in the PHB 2 shown at the NY Comic Con '09?
Wisdom is primary in the two builds with dexterity as secondary in one of them [pursuit avenger]. All the other sample characters that have a bonus on the stat that works as primary start with 18. This is not the case of the elf sorcerer and the half-orc avenger: both start with 16 in the primary. They can't make an 18 with the standard array. If the half-orc were Str/Wis using the standard array, the half-orc avenger would certainly start with an 18 on wisdom and 14 in dexterity because wisdom is much more important them dexterity.
Have you seen the avenger pages in the PHB 2 shown at the NY Comic Con '09?
Wisdom is primary in the two builds with dexterity as secondary in one of them [pursuit avenger]. All the other sample characters that have a bonus on the stat that works as primary start with 18. This is not the case of the elf sorcerer and the half-orc avenger: both start with 16 in the primary. They can't make an 18 with the standard array. If the half-orc were Str/Wis using the standard array, the half-orc avenger would certainly start with an 18 on wisdom and 14 in dexterity because wisdom is much more important them dexterity.
14 Dex + Armor of Faith = +5 AC Which is Very low for a frontline alone with enemy attacker. Hell, +6 AC is dangerously low. the fact he has 16 dex and 16 wis while being a frontline attack in cheap armor is basically meaningless.
14 Dex + Armor of Faith = +5 AC Which is Very low for a frontline alone with enemy attacker. Hell, +6 AC is dangerously low. the fact he has 16 dex and 16 wis while being a frontline attack in cheap armor is basically meaningless.
Just take the Leather Armor Prof. feat for +2 AC (this feat is really necessary for the avenger) -> 17 AC at level 1 for a striker is ok. Maybe Hide Prof. feat after that.
Armor of Faith is a good bonus and the freedom to use better light armor must be explored... which is sad. Restricting only to cloth and giving a better bonus would be better than directing the avenger to burn feats. Don't you worry Aluman WotC developers are very intelligent. They probably already guessed what would happen with a character starting with a 14 in Dex or Int. Maybe an avenger feat giving more AC against his oath target. If any mechanical problems arise, divine power (coming in June) will certainly fix.
Just take the Leather Armor Prof. feat for +2 AC (this feat is really necessary for the avenger) -> 17 AC at level 1 for a striker is ok. Maybe Hide Prof. feat after that.
Armor of Faith is a good bonus and the freedom to use better light armor must be explored... which is sad. Restricting only to cloth and giving a better bonus would be better than directing the avenger to burn feats. Don't you worry Aluman WotC developers are very intelligent. They probably already guessed what would happen with a character starting with a 14 in Dex or Int. Maybe an avenger feat giving more AC against his oath target. If any mechanical problems arise, divine power (coming in June) will certainly fix.
I'm not saying there is a problem, I am saying that starting a character ith 14 dex to get 18 wis, when they DON'T have either of those feats would be lethal to the character and the designers probably realized that, therfor: The two sixteens still leave two scores as possible bumps, and just because the other characters who could have 18 doesn't mean the avenger HAS to follow that forumla.
I'm not saying there is a problem, I am saying that starting a character ith 14 dex to get 18 wis, when they DON'T have either of those feats would be lethal to the character and the designers probably realized that, therfor: The two sixteens still leave two scores as possible bumps, and just because the other characters who could have 18 doesn't mean the avenger HAS to follow that forumla.
Ok, ok, calm down man! I know that maybe I'm wrong. It really exist a possibility of a Str/Wis half-orc -> considering the sample avenger with standard array 16 14 13 12 11 10 the strength could be the 12+2 and the wisdom 14+2 (primary), but... IMO Str/Dex.
Wisdom as bonus for half-orcs = half-orcs good (or excepcional) for a lot of leader and controler classes when we all know that they are iconic defenders and strikers. I'm aware that recently the dwarf concept (iconic defender) is changing a lot as they now make good controlers (invoker, druid) and leaders (cleric, shaman), in other words, they have mutated from martial to divine/primal. Maybe the half-orcs are taking the same direction (your opinion). I understand your point of view.
Str/Dex or Str/Wis... doesn't matter, any form would be cool and refreshing.
Ok, ok, calm down man!
Wisdom as bonus for half-orcs = half-orcs good (or excepcional) for a lot of leader and controler classes when we all know that they are iconic defenders and strikers. I'm aware that recently the dwarf concept (iconic defender) is changing a lot as they now make good controlers (invoker, druid) and leaders (cleric, shaman), in other words, they have mutated from martial to divine/primal. Maybe the half-orcs are taking the same direction (your opinion). I understand your point of view.
To me its less about combat roles and more about sources.
Primal: All classes save one subs or primary wisdom
Martial: All classes save one are STR primary
Divine: All calsses are Wis primary
Arcane: All classes save 1 uses Int.
A Str/Wis Half Orc is a Primal/Martial archtype who happens to be ok at Divine, but still isn't close to optimal for Arcane classes (The closest you get is dragoncer and Assault SMs).
A Str/Dex Half Orc is only useful in Martial classes, and not even all of them. Still ok in the two above Arcane classes: Isn't that great as primal anything save the barbarian.
The stats are as follows: str 12, con 13, dex 16, int 11, wis 10, cha 16
The stat adjustments for an elf are: +2 dex, +2 wis
So the base stats for the elf sorceror are: str 12, con 13, dex 14, int 11, wis 8, cha 16
Or: 8, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16 for a point cost total of (based upon an initial base of 8, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10) the following: 0 (for 8)+1 (for an 11)+2 (for a 12)+3 (for a 13)+5 (for a 14)+9 (for a 16)=20 points. It is not a 22 point buy for stats.
Did I miss something or is it possible they may be throwing us for loops?
Who knows what the half-orc is getting?
Edit: I got the url I used in the IMG tag from the properties of the pic, so I don't know why it doesn't show up.
I just noticed something odd about the elf sorceror in this pic:
The stats are as follows: str 12, con 13, dex 16, int 11, wis 10, cha 16
The stat adjustments for an elf are: +2 dex, +2 wis
So the base stats for the elf sorceror are: str 12, con 13, dex 14, int 11, wis 8, cha 16
Or: 8, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16 for a point cost total of (based upon an initial base of 8, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10) the following: 0 (for 8)+1 (for an 11)+2 (for a 12)+3 (for a 13)+5 (for a 14)+9 (for a 16)=20 points. It is not a 22 point buy for stats.
Did I miss something or is it possible they may be throwing us for loops?
Who knows what the half-orc is getting?
Edit: I got the url I used in the IMG tag from the properties of the pic, so I don't know why it doesn't show up.
Yea all the others follow standard array, they were off on one, thats what I based my math on the Half Orc on.
To each his own, but we should know in around a month.
To me its less about combat roles and more about sources.
Primal: All classes save one subs or primary wisdom
Martial: All classes save one are STR primary
Divine: All calsses are Wis primary
Arcane: All classes save 1 uses Int.
A Str/Wis Half Orc is a Primal/Martial archtype who happens to be ok at Divine, but still isn't close to optimal for Arcane classes (The closest you get is dragoncer and Assault SMs).
A Str/Dex Half Orc is only useful in Martial classes, and not even all of them. Still ok in the two above Arcane classes: Isn't that great as primal anything save the barbarian.
A more unifying stat for Primal is actually con:
All Primal classes have con as a secondary stat
All Divine classes have wis as a primary or secondary stat
All Arcane classes (except the Sorcerer
) have int as a primary or secondaryAll Martial classes have str as a primary or secondary
Also, although half-orcs might not line up in terms of secondary stats for primal classes, any class that can wield a weapon is not badly served by a str/dex combination; I think it's safe to say that half-orcs will make more than decent heavy blade using wardens and barbarians.
STR/DEX doesn't make a lot of sense to me, as Orcs and 1/2 Orcs have never been terribly nimble (not that they're excluded from being so).
From a totally game mechanic standpoint, this also would give them a better edge when it comes to those sneaky Will saves, without making them any smarter.
I lean toward STR/WIS primarily for the fact that it has been stated before that high WIS can mean possesing of deep spiritual knowledge,.....
You see that poler opposite of me, but that may be a generational thing (Pre-WoW/Eberron ). For Me the 1/2 Orc is quintessentially a fighter/thief or assassin, in 4th ed terms that means fighter, rouge, ranger and Barbarian. Deep spiritual knowledge and 1/2 orc go together about as smoothly as chocolate and petrol.:D
+2 (STR) from the orc
+2 (Floating) from the human
It would make sense, logically, and the example character would benefit from a point of armor (putting the floater in dex), more so then anything else given its status as a melee class needs all the AC it can get.
Again, I have no argument with the boards, just passing along a thought.
Most likely this isn't the case, but hey... :P
Is it possible for the half-orcs to not have a strength bonus at all, and instead have +2dex/+2wis? This is a weak reason, but half-orcs before were always one notch down full orcs in strength.
Most likely this isn't the case, but hey... :P
This would conflict with the Razorclaws, which we are already 95% sure will be in PHB2 and WILL have +2 Dex / +2 Wis. Not a reason for them not to do Hal-Orcs (please, pleeeeeease stop writing 1/2 Orc :P ) just the same, but I would prefer if it wasn't this way.
The same point against +2 Str / +2 Wis. If they include the Longtooth Shifter as well (and I firmly believe they will), it would be two races with the same atribute modifiers on the same book.
I go for Str/Dex. Plus, they will make damn good rangers if they come like this :D
Is it possible for the half-orcs to not have a strength bonus at all, and instead have +2dex/+2wis? This is a weak reason, but half-orcs before were always one notch down full orcs in strength.
Most likely this isn't the case, but hey... :P
No. Its not possible, if they did the sheets even some what accurately.
so It seems that the 1/2 orc gets STR/ Dex. My hunch was right:P . see this from japan.http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=441229&page=6
I'm expecting that by this time tomorrow ALL speculation will be over.
Given how desperate we gamers are for its release, I fully expect to see ChaOp builds in as little as a week.
so It seems that the 1/2 orc gets STR/ Dex. My hunch was right:P . see this from japan.http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=441229&page=6
I'm right again.
THE 4E ORACLE.
(The only thing I predicted wrong until know is the wild mage as sorcerer)