www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/p...
That's a nice generic PHB wizard they have there.
Shugenja is divine spellcaster, isn´t it? I wounder if shugenja is a cleric build...now do they use armour?
I thought the sha´ir was the elemental arcane spellcaster.
Shugenja is divine spellcaster, isn´t it? I wounder if shugenja is a cleric build...now do they use armour?
We won't know what either of those are, power-source-wise, until WotC drops an excerpt or releases the book.
In previous Editions, Sha'ir were a build of wizard (and arcane), and Shugenjas were divine. Whether or not either of these will continue to be the case is unknown outside of WotC's staff.
Anyway, considering how fantastic HotF was, I'm hoping this book will be just as great. Finally feels as if they're moving the design forwards like they always promised.
Is it me, or is Wizards using the term "subclass" less and less, and favouring "build" more? And wasn't this book called Heroes of the Astral Sea, or am I confusing it with something else?
Anyway, considering how fantastic HotF was, I'm hoping this book will be just as great. Finally feels as if they're moving the design forwards like they always promised.
From the top down ...
1. I hadn't noticed, but then, I wasn't paying attention.
2. I think you're confusing it with something else.
3. Fantastic is in the eye of the beholder ...
4. Yeah ... see #3.
"Build" retains the definition it had in the PHBs.
This book has been called "Heroes of the Plane Below."
"Heroes of the Astral Sea" is pure conjecture.
3. Fantastic is in the eye of the beholder ...
4. Yeah ... see #3.
One man's hell is another man's heaven, as a wise man once said.
"Subclass" is the term used in Heroes of the Feywild for character options with the ability to use some powers from an existing class, but with a markedly different set of basic options.
"Build" retains the definition it had in the PHBs.
This book has been called "Heroes of the Plane Below."
"Heroes of the Astral Sea" is pure conjecture.
Not to sound rude, but I do know what "subclass" and "build" mean; I meant that Wizards seems to be using them interchangeably lately, using the latter more often than than the former. The second part of your post answered my question though, thanks.
No new races right? I thought I read that after Heroes of the Feywild came out, but then then there was that DDI article that had the new race, so I don't know. I wish they would just give goblins PC support.
No, no new races. Hengeyokai came out before Heroes of the Feywild which is the last printed book that is slated to have new races. However that doesn't mean that the DDI won't have new races, as well as support for already published races. I heard rumour of Bladeling support.
Bladeling support isn't a rumor, it was in one of the Rule of 3 articles.
Couldn't remember the source so I just said rumour. Thanks for confirming. Anyway, I am curious about themes in this one.
As far as I have heard, the shugenja is a monk subclass, the elementalist is a sorcerer subclass, and as previously stated the sha'ir is a wizard. I'm looking forward to it.
Man, if that's true...they love sub-classing wizards. Arcanist, Mage, Bladesinger, at minimum they added Witch with HotF (how "Witch" isn't related to Warlock, I can't figure...)
Still no or very little love for: Bards, Ardents, Wardens, Warlords, Psions, Battleminds, Avengers, Invokers, Seekers... I guess Swordmages and Runepriests recently got a smidgen of affection. But man. Dudes hate Avengers and Bards. Hate 'em.
But make sure that wizard gets a new sublcass. Because when you boil it right down to it, every magic user is a wizard? I dunno.
As far as I have heard, the shugenja is a monk subclass, the elementalist is a sorcerer subclass, and as previously stated the sha'ir is a wizard. I'm looking forward to it.
Man, if that's true...they love sub-classing wizards. Arcanist, Mage, Bladesinger, at minimum they added Witch with HotF (how "Witch" isn't related to Warlock, I can't figure...)
Still no or very little love for: Bards, Wardens, Swordmages, Warlords, Psions, Battleminds, Avengers, Invokers, Seekers...
But make sure that wizard gets a new sublcass. Because when you boil it right down to it, every magic user is a wizard? I dunno.
Bards got some love in the Feywild book.
The others... ah...
Well, they're Wizards of the Coast, so what are you gonna do?
Man, there are so many character archetypes that fit under wizard that it makes total sense that there would be a buttload of wizard subclasses. The same goes for fighter, and really any class heavily represented in fiction.
The mage and the arcanist are practically the same.
The bladesinger is just the swordmage with uh...more FR lore than the original swordmage.
The witch seems like another minor wizard varient with that seems to be more warlock/invoker themed.
Oddly enough, there isn't a buttload of fighter subclasses, heck, the current essentials ones lack builds for diff weapon types (despite how easy it'd be).
Powers tend to define the difference between members of the same class more than some fiddly class features. You play the arcanist you've pretty much played all the others (well, except bladesinger).
Maybe a Slaadi race, Purple Slaadi or Slaadling.
Do they need it in case, with Genasi you can be just about any time of elemental, Wind, Fire, Earth, Water, Cinder, Void, Magma, Sand, etc... Maybe a Slaadi race, Purple Slaadi or Slaadling.
Or that chaotic plane-touched from that one 3e monster manual.
Besides, Genasi do have the "elemental" thing to them, but you can still create unique races that are elemental in feel. Like, Efreeti or a race of earth elementals based on the ancient fertility idols (think Venus of Willendorf) with huge, strong females and small, subservient males. Or other similar races of "elemental mortals" that while made of an element, keep a body structure and psychology of a humanoid.
Djinnling sounds like a theme to me, but perhaps one that gives something similar to a Familiar.
Shi'ar Wizard subclass grants its. I feel so sorry for the witch right now, because Anise and her Djinnling look awesome. Scar looks cool, especially that sweeeet axe, I so want one, for real. The Elf Galafaer looked cool too, I expect him to be the monk build. Scar I'm not sure, sorcerors don't usually use big axes, so maybe Shujengi, a cleric or paladin build?
It screams Defender to me. A big brute that sets itself and its enemies on fire is right up my alley (that's what I play in DCUO after all). Wouldn't it be fun if it was actually a controller?
Some very, very gorgeous art there.
Now this looks interesting.
It does look interesting. How/where did you find it?
If scar IS an elementalist, I hope it's not just a sorcerer variant of the bladesinger.
Seconded. Though I won't be all that disappointed if it is similar since the bladesinger idea would be a much better fit for a striker anyway.
I mostly just don't want to see it forced to use sorcerer encounter powers as dailies and such. Maybe instead allow them to make melee attacks with ranged powers.
A mechanic letting you use a ranged power at melee with a weapon using it's die instead of the die type specified in the power perhaps?
Now this looks interesting.
It does look interesting. How/where did you find it?
It's from Tyler Jacobson's blog. His art is superb and I randomly visit his site, plus some other artists' sites for pictures for D&D campaigns. I just lucked upon his site the same day (Dec. 2) he uploaded artwork from HotF and HotEC.
I mostly just don't want to see it forced to use sorcerer encounter powers as dailies and such. Maybe instead allow them to make melee attacks with ranged powers.
A mechanic letting you use a ranged power at melee with a weapon using it's die instead of the die type specified in the power perhaps?
Eh. It would have to be new powers only, or it would otherwise be extremely complex. I could see [w] replacing the sorcerer damage bonus maybe.
I hope these new builds are like the HoF ones where they give up old features for new ones. Making them feel much more like a new class than a new build.
I'd like to see a shugenja who leans heavily toward a different role based on which element they chose. water = leader, fire = striker, air = controller and earth = defender (even if only slightly, not having a full fledged defender aura but powers that allow it to mark an enemy) and choosing one element restricts you from it's opposite.
As for all this angst over more wizard stuff. To me the witch seems like an easier to pick up for beginners version of the wizard. She lacks a spell book so doesnt need to pick two of every spell which can be hard for newbies to grasp. I dunno how many times I've had to tell players at encounters they can't use both. So ya less complexity but still with some versatility.
I've said this before I'll say it again, the wizard is the archetypal spellcaster. Many new players are attracted to spellcasters, they think melee classes are dull. The wizard is often the first class they consider. Now a new player can begin with a witch and graduate to mage or arcanist when the time is right and because all of those classes are wizards there will be plenty of options to expand upon no matter which build they choose. If any one class had to be overloaded with options it should be the wizard. It has always been that way in previous editions and I don't know why people are so upset to see this trend continue. The wizard couldn't be more iconic even if the game was called dungeons and wizards.
Based on the trio of adventures picture from above, unless the djinnling is a feature from a theme, I'd say that the sha-ir gets a free familiar. Hope it doesn't turn out too much like the witch though.
Even modern "wizard" characters often end up using physical attacks at some point. Harry Potter and Harry Dresden both get their sword on, and Dresden also uses guns.
Second, this early preview of what the characters in the book will be like has given me HUGE and HIGH hopes. It looks far better than I thought. And with Witch blending into previously Warlock-only territory, I'm less angry at Sha'ir being Wizard for the sake of nostalgia, as it also blends into that territory.
February: Heroes of the Elemental Chaos
In the beginning was possibility. Untamed energy roiled and vied in a clashing storm of raw and utter chaos. Formless substance swelled and shrank in the emptiness as fountains of energy burst from its surface. New worlds were born with each passing moment, then were just as quickly lost in the cosmic maelstrom. This was the world as it was, and this is the future yet to come—an unstable reality, ever cycling through creation and destruction.
Theology records countless myths regarding the world's formation. Many temples recount the divine victory over the elemental hosts, capturing the desperate struggle of gods and primordials in the frescoes and paintings adorning their walls and domes. In the eyes of the faithful, the primordials are perilous monstrosities best forgotten. The gods ended their threat and secured the future.
History is written by the victors, however. Attitudes and beliefs regarding the ancient primordial powers and their failed war against the heavens have been shaped by the gods and their servants over millennia. The gods point to their victory as proof they were right in their cause, and claim that the world is now as it was intended to be. The primordials have been checked in their desire to control and shape the planes, and the faithful of the gods give thanks for a world free of the raging chaos that once was. However, to say that the primordials' elemental power is vanquished is to tell a dangerous lie.
The primordials are very much alive. Their bodies are imprisoned—weighed down by chains, sealed in inescapable vaults, or clouded by sleep. However, their minds and spirits still endure. They think. They plot. They hate. And as they do, elemental magic flows from the primordials and the Elemental Chaos that is their legacy, spreading insidiously across the planes.
Creating Elemental Heroes
Much speculation exists regarding a vast reservoir of magical power said to be hidden in the depths of the Elemental Chaos. Its signs are everywhere. One doesn't have to look hard to understand the energy emanating from the Plane Below, filtering into the upper planes through the magic of mortals and immortals alike. A fireball spell harnesses elemental flame, and the evocations unleashed by druids and shamans tap into a power even greater than the primal magic that controls it. Some sages believe that elemental power encompasses the power that lives in every other magical tradition, from the dread cold of shadow magic to the wild and unpredictable spells used by the chaos sorcerers. Others believe that elemental power can be harnessed, shaped, and used as a mystical energy separate from the common systems of magic. In the end, both theories might be true, connecting all magic in ways known only to the heroes of the Elemental Chaos.The first chapter of Heroes of the Elemental Chaos explores the fundamentals of elemental power, and includes the following sections:
- Elemental Magic:A discussion of elemental magic, what it is, and who can call on its power.
- Elemental Influence:A broad overview of how the Elemental Chaos influences the planes.
- The Elemental Chaos:A discussion of the Plane Below, whose power is the font from which all elemental heroes draw their magic.
- Elemental-Touched Races:An overview of how different races and cultures are touched by elemental power.
- Gaining Elemental Power:A discussion of the processes by which characters tap into elemental power, and a survey of the primordials that can serve as patrons for such characters.
- Elemental Power in Your Game: Tips for DMs seeking to introduce elemental power into a campaign.
I'd like to see the monk give up full discipline and flurry of blows for something along the lines of a new elemental discipline keyword that modifies the powers they use based on which element they choose and perhaps an elemental at-will or encounter power unique to their elemental build. Really looking forward to this, woowhoo!!! can't wait!
Wizards are one of my favorite classes, but even I'm sick of constantly seeing new builds for them. It seems like the Wizard's pretty much "maxed out" in terms of potential, as they already have a top-notch spell (if not several) at pretty much every level. Publishing things that are better only increases power creep and widens the gulf between Wizards and the other controllers, and going with more balanced new choices (i.e. most of the Witch powers) leaves players feeling underwhelmed with the new content. This is why Wizards got less out of HotF than Barbarians, Druids, and Bards. I'd prefer if the same were true of HotEC, because Wizards don't need the mechanical boost.
Support for the Monk and Sorcerer, OTOH, is great news. It's funny how the 2 strikers being supported in this book are the 2 most AoE-centric of the bunch. Here's hoping that Sorcs will be given a novel new class feature that allows them to play a little differently, but that new powers will also help the old Sorc out. I'm not sure what I want from a new Monk build, mostly because it's one of those classes that I've wanted to try out for a while now but haven't gotten around to it yet.
EDIT: One thing I'm hoping is included is another "Build Your Story" chapter like HotF had.
Overall I'm curious about the book, especially seeing an Essentialized Sorcerer. My friend's fav D&D character is a sorcerer so he's fond of the class and he's had that character from 3.5 and transitioned into 4th. And I'm playing a Wild Sorcerer right now in a game and loving it, so I definitely am curious about how the class will turn out.
I'm really hoping hoping the Elemental-Touched Races section offers something along the lines of Neverwinter's sub-races, rather than just being fluff.
Heck yeah! I want more of those.
I think people may have forgotten that the four existing builds for sorcerers had str and dex as secondary stats allowing them to have decent basic attacks. perhaps the elementalist in the illustration is simply a caster with an axe for MBAs or perhaps our hopes are true and using a weapon is more tightly knit into its play style. I know I'll be happy no mater what. They did say they were planning to do something new and different with the sorcerer so ya maybe it's a defender, he certainly looks the part. Another cross-role class maybe? Hoping the shugenja transcends its parent class' role too.
the elementalist will not be an essentialized sorcerer. No more anyway than the berserker is an E-ized barbarian, gaining defender aura really the only thing essential-like about them.
I really do expect them to be ranged versions of slayers.
They do RBA's with "elemental blast". (2d6+Cha+Dex+2/4/6).
They get 2-5 "stance" to change the damage type and small control effect (cold and slow, thunder and push, fire and ongoing).
Options for impliments, that change "power attack" (staffs = AOE, wand = half on a miss, orb's = daze).
Or something along those lines.
an interesting idea, but they'll still have encounters, utilities and dailies.
Why?
There should be an option for "i hit it with my sword spells" people.
And this seems like the perfect oppertunity to make one.
because it's been confirmed the new sorcerer and monk will be AEUD. That doesn't mean you're wrong unless you are actually proposing a caster that does nothing but RBAs. It does mean that in addition to at-wills of some kind it will have encounters, utilities and dailies.
Didn't know that.
Well... there SHOULD be an RBA spamming magic class.
Just because it's AUED does not mean it won't be just that.
I think people may have forgotten that the four existing builds for sorcerers had str and dex as secondary stats.
I wonder:
The fire-earth Elementalist will be a Cha-Str build.
The air-water Elementalist will be a Cha-Dex build.
the elementalist will not be an essentialized sorcerer.
We have no info on this one way or the other.
Take a look at the Skald.
Just because it's AUED does not mean it won't be just that.
True enough.
I'd like to see a shugenja who leans heavily toward a different role based on which element they chose. water = leader, fire = striker, air = controller and earth = defender (even if only slightly, not having a full fledged defender aura but powers that allow it to mark an enemy) and choosing one element restricts you from it's opposite.
Someone did a really good 4e adaptation of Avatar: the Last Airbender which was exactly that.
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...(MACH_2)
There's a link to the pdf file the guy created. I only looked it over and have not used it, but it seems neat.
the elementalist will not be an essentialized sorcerer.
We have no info on this one way or the other.
No, we know that they will not essentialize the sorcerer because they said they wouldn't in a Q+A column a long while back. Now they could still do something crazy like give them a defender aura and I would not consider that essentialization. IMO gaining one feature from essentials doesn't equal essentialized. If you feel otherwise then we can agree to disagree.
What makes a new class or build essentials to me is being oversimplified and not able to share options with your parent class (knight, slayer, hunter, scout, thief) or having most or all of your powers chosen for you (hexblade, warpriest, cavalier)
because they said they wouldn't in a Q+A column a long while back.
[citation needed]
What makes a new class or build essentials to me is being oversimplified and not able to share options with your parent class (knight, slayer, hunter, scout, thief) or having most or all of your powers chosen for you (hexblade, warpriest, cavalier)
I think what most of those suggesting the Elementalist might be an 'Essentialised' Sorcerer mean is that it might use basic attacks modified by at-will and encounter powers, like the Skald does. So you and they are using very different definitions of 'Essentialised'.
That's pretty much all the relevant information on that, but the rest of what he said about the book is here community.wizards.com/wotc_richbaker/blo...
Between the elementalist in the art we've seen and Baker comparing it to the slayer, sorta strengthen the idea to me that melee is important to this class if not that then maybe weapon basic attacks.
You are assuming that was an Elementalist, admittedly I did say it might be but it also may not be.
If it functions off of "Basic Attacks" and not "Melee Basic Attacks" or "Ranged Basic Attacks" then it can do whatever it very well pleases. Want to fling magical bolts of fire (Think Eldritch Blast)? Charisma primary. Want to throw flaming daggers? Dex primary. Want to use a flaming axe? Strength primary.
Or...
One stance could make it an MBA.
One could make it a wall 3 in 10.
One could make it a close blast 3.
One could make it a burst 1 within 10.
ect...
If it functions off of "Basic Attacks" and not "Melee Basic Attacks" or "Ranged Basic Attacks" then it can do whatever it very well pleases. Want to fling magical bolts of fire (Think Eldritch Blast)? Charisma primary. Want to throw flaming daggers? Dex primary. Want to use a flaming axe? Strength primary.
Or...
One stance could make it an MBA.
One could make it a wall 3 in 10.
One could make it a close blast 3.
One could make it a burst 1 within 10.
ect...
Sounds like Magicka, I'm for it.
Sounds awesome. Hopefully something along those lines is what "along the lines of a slayer" means.
If it functions off of "Basic Attacks" and not "Melee Basic Attacks" or "Ranged Basic Attacks" then it can do whatever it very well pleases. Want to fling magical bolts of fire (Think Eldritch Blast)? Charisma primary. Want to throw flaming daggers? Dex primary. Want to use a flaming axe? Strength primary.
Or...
One stance could make it an MBA.
One could make it a wall 3 in 10.
One could make it a close blast 3.
One could make it a burst 1 within 10.
ect...
This is the sort of thing I was thinking, but instead I was thinking an extra effect on an a basic attack (of either type) and maybe a class feature allowing you to use any weapon as a thrown weapon (how to determine which weapons are heavy or light is harder for me to figure ... or it could be Dex / Cha and all thrown weapon basic attacks use Dex.
Then, based on your stance, an effect happens after / as part of the attack (as opposed to modifiying it, though that might be a better idea). Better effects on a hit, some effects still on a miss. So maybe a stance that does Cha damage to all adjacent enemies when you hit or a stance that pushes foes away from you.
I'd be very happy if it was a mix of the two concepts.
I don't think the elementalist will have to choose an element for its build like the shugenja probably will. I'm picturing a class that gains a bonus to spell damage like the old sorcerer but when he casts a spell his weapon becomes wreathed in that element giving him an elemental damage bonus to melee basic attacks. His at-wills are melee stances and don't involve elements. So he gets a chargy stance, a shifty stance, a pushy stance, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if the list of stances are the same as the slayer's. Just speculation...
The cleanest way to do it would be to give them an at-will ranged basic attack, and then make their powers work off of basic attack, with stances that turn their attacks into bursts and blasts.
So a lot like the 3.5 warlock with its invocations that modify eldritch blast? Cool!
The cleanest way to do it would be to give them an at-will ranged basic attack, and then make their powers work off of basic attack, with stances that turn their attacks into bursts and blasts.
So a lot like the 3.5 warlock with its invocations that modify eldritch blast? Cool!
I wouldn't get my hopes up. Nothing definite has been said so far.
The cleanest way to do it would be to give them an at-will ranged basic attack, and then make their powers work off of basic attack, with stances that turn their attacks into bursts and blasts.
So a lot like the 3.5 warlock with its invocations that modify eldritch blast? Cool!
I wouldn't get my hopes up. Nothing definite has been said so far.
I know. But out of the ideas I've heard thrown out so far, this is the one that I'd bet is closest to what the truth turns out to be.
Is it me, or is Wizards using the term "subclass" less and less, and favouring "build" more? And wasn't this book called Heroes of the Astral Sea, or am I confusing it with something else?
Anyway, considering how fantastic HotF was, I'm hoping this book will be just as great. Finally feels as if they're moving the design forwards like they always promised.
From the top down ...
1. I hadn't noticed, but then, I wasn't paying attention.
2. I think you're confusing it with something else.
3. Fantastic is in the eye of the beholder ...
for number 3, thats alot of eyes. or is it just the big eye?
So, what sort of themes do people expect?
Why, elementary of course.
So, what sort of themes do people expect?
Why, elementary of course.
Good show, ol' chap.
So, what sort of themes do people expect?
Why, elementary of course.
Good show, ol' chap.
Quite. But honestly, I'm having a hard time imagining anything specific.
Wu Jen would be a fun theme, and I think it would be better as a theme than ANOTHER Wizard subclass.
I could suggest dozens of things, but it all depends on how broad a concept they want to make elemental. Various sorts of elemental cultist or chaos controller (the whole shaping the Elemental Chaos into the desired form thing), daoist-like users of elements, Full Metal Alchemist-like alchemy-users, genie or demon vassals, etc etc etc.
I just want to make sure I can make a Kossuth wosrhipping Elemantalist and be happy.
The elemental power source
I do not believe we will see an Elemental power source, I think it's been ditch, like the Ki power source.
I'm pretty sure the Elementalist will be Arcane, the Sha'ir Arcane, and the Shugenja Psionic (Yama Bushi etc)
Arcane certainly gets the most love.
The elemental power source
I do not believe we will see an Elemental power source, I think it's been ditch, like the Ki power source.
I'm pretty sure the Elementalist will be Arcane, the Sha'ir Arcane, and the Shugenja Psionic (Yama Bushi etc)
Arcane certainly gets the most love.
The elemental powersource has already been used twice. Once in the player content for Manual of the Planes and once for the Hierophant Druid article. So no it hasn't been slagged.
p.s. Ya a know there are a few feats, PP and ED with power source requirements. More than a few probably.
The elemental powersource has already been used twice. Once in the player content for Manual of the Planes and once for the Hierophant Druid article. So no it hasn't been slagged.
I think you're mistaking Power Source for Keyword, the Elemental Keyword has ben used, but as a Power Source, Elemental does not exist.
Steely_Dan. *facepalm* Elemental has been used as a Power Source Keyword. Power Source is simply a type of keyword, mechanics wise. No, there hasn't been a class or subclass yet that says, "Elemental Striker" or something. But that doesn't mean that the Power Source doesn't exist. It has only been tapped into by extremely powerful Hierophant Druids up until the publication of this book next year.
But in this book, we'll see things like "Arcane and Elemental Striker." "Psionic and Elemental Controller." Probably.
But in this book, we'll see things like "Arcane and Elemental Striker." "Psionic and Elemental Controller." Probably.
Ooh, the Shugenja being an Elemental and Psionic Controller Monk subclass would be nifty.
But this does bring up a question of Powers Sources impact, mechanically, aside from Feats, doesn't seem to be much (do we really need a Power to have the Arcane, Fire, and Elemental keywords?)
if the elemental monk becomes a controller...wouldn'y that make it kinda like the benders from the last airbender? because if it is then D&D just became 100% cooler
That's what I'm expecting/hoping for. >_>
you know now that I think of it, all of the classes seem to be pretty bendery, the sorcerer could be a bender that uses a weapon, the monk could be a bender that knows martial arts and the wizard could be a bender that focuses almost entirely on bending. It's just a wild guess, but from the few powers that I can see from the very little art that I've seen, maybe the elemental power source, theme wise, involves creating and controling their respective elements, and since the main characters we can see focus only on one element, maybe the mechanics of the power source is that you start off by picking an element that focuses on a specific thing as a secondary role. Maybe there will even be a feat you can take that let's you take up another element along side the one you already have. Just a thought.
Why do people keep thinking the sorcerer is going to be a weapon-based subclass? Near as I can tell, the one quote comparing the sorcerer to the slayer in how it functions doesn't even hint at melee or weapons. Seems far more plausible to me that it means a non-AEDU setup to modify how an at-will attack works. Sure, with the slayer that was melee basic attack. But for sorcerer, it seems more plausible to me that "iconic" sorcerer, tossing around blasts of elemental energy, would work with at-will "stances" (or analogs) that modify how a single at-will spell works. Not dissimilar to how the 3.5 warlock had invocations that modified eldritch blast - adding energy types and effects or changing the attack shape. Not saying your idea is necessarily wrong, but based on what I've heard, both ideas remain possible while mine seems more plausible. All speculation of course. But it seems strange to me that all the speculation about the sorcerer seems to focus on what sounds like a long shot. Especially since post Essentials subclasses all seem to be working to get back to iconic classes - reinvisioning very familiar concepts with more unique mechanics.
you know now that I think of it, all of the classes seem to be pretty bendery, the sorcerer could be a bender that uses a weapon, the monk could be a bender that knows martial arts and the wizard could be a bender that focuses almost entirely on bending. It's just a wild guess, but from the few powers that I can see from the very little art that I've seen, maybe the elemental power source, theme wise, involves creating and controling their respective elements, and since the main characters we can see focus only on one element, maybe the mechanics of the power source is that you start off by picking an element that focuses on a specific thing as a secondary role. Maybe there will even be a feat you can take that let's you take up another element along side the one you already have. Just a thought.
Why do people keep thinking the sorcerer is going to be a weapon-based subclass? Near as I can tell, the one quote comparing the sorcerer to the slayer in how it functions doesn't even hint at melee or weapons. Seems far more plausible to me that it means a non-AEDU setup to modify how an at-will attack works. Sure, with the slayer that was melee basic attack. But for sorcerer, it seems more plausible to me that "iconic" sorcerer, tossing around blasts of elemental energy, would work with at-will "stances" (or analogs) that modify how a single at-will spell works. Not dissimilar to how the 3.5 warlock had invocations that modified eldritch blast - adding energy types and effects or changing the attack shape. Not saying your idea is necessarily wrong, but based on what I've heard, both ideas remain possible while mine seems more plausible. All speculation of course. But it seems strange to me that all the speculation about the sorcerer seems to focus on what sounds like a long shot. Especially since post Essentials subclasses all seem to be working to get back to iconic classes - reinvisioning very familiar concepts with more unique mechanics.
Because of the image with the guy with a huge battleaxe in one hand and a spout of flame in the other hand.
you know now that I think of it, all of the classes seem to be pretty bendery, the sorcerer could be a bender that uses a weapon, the monk could be a bender that knows martial arts and the wizard could be a bender that focuses almost entirely on bending. It's just a wild guess, but from the few powers that I can see from the very little art that I've seen, maybe the elemental power source, theme wise, involves creating and controling their respective elements, and since the main characters we can see focus only on one element, maybe the mechanics of the power source is that you start off by picking an element that focuses on a specific thing as a secondary role. Maybe there will even be a feat you can take that let's you take up another element along side the one you already have. Just a thought.
Why do people keep thinking the sorcerer is going to be a weapon-based subclass? Near as I can tell, the one quote comparing the sorcerer to the slayer in how it functions doesn't even hint at melee or weapons. Seems far more plausible to me that it means a non-AEDU setup to modify how an at-will attack works. Sure, with the slayer that was melee basic attack. But for sorcerer, it seems more plausible to me that "iconic" sorcerer, tossing around blasts of elemental energy, would work with at-will "stances" (or analogs) that modify how a single at-will spell works. Not dissimilar to how the 3.5 warlock had invocations that modified eldritch blast - adding energy types and effects or changing the attack shape. Not saying your idea is necessarily wrong, but based on what I've heard, both ideas remain possible while mine seems more plausible. All speculation of course. But it seems strange to me that all the speculation about the sorcerer seems to focus on what sounds like a long shot. Especially since post Essentials subclasses all seem to be working to get back to iconic classes - reinvisioning very familiar concepts with more unique mechanics.
It's not because it's comparison to the slayer, it's because the only iconic character that we've seen that could possibly represent is a half-orc in scale mail with a greataxe and the ability to summon and control fire, and since iconic characters represent the basic idea of a class rather than some wacky build you can use around them, we can only assume that it's going to be closer to the slayer than we originally thought.
For the four classes I'm working on, for example, I have an elemental shapeshifter that composes themselves of an element, a slightly-bender-like shaper of a chunk of elemental matter, a living gate to the elemental chaos that slightly twists the area and allies around them, and more standard spontaneous conjurer of elemental energy that basically comes off like Magneto. You could easily build elemental themes around summoned creatures, psionic-like expansion of at-will abilities, expressing elemental energy through items (or powered armor, mounts, or golems), simple generic classes that just add elemental power to beef up martial abilities (acid assassins, fire archers, water shield guards), or something more indirect that takes into account the mythological associations of an element, and not just the raw substance. And, of course, there are the creation/destruction cycles, elemental cultist, genie, primordial, and abyssal angles.
Soooooo much to work with, and so few sacred cows in the way of creativity.
well, however they do it, I just hope that scar is the elementalist, cause the game really needs a warrior mage that doesn't use a sword. I mean really, If I want to make a dwarven warmage, he can't just go around swinging around a longsword like some sort of pansy eladrin!
You can make a magey Dwarf Artificer with a warhammer. Sort of magey, and very Dwarfey.
well, however they do it, I just hope that scar is the elementalist, cause the game really needs a warrior mage that doesn't use a sword. I mean really, If I want to make a dwarven warmage, he can't just go around swinging around a longsword like some sort of pansy eladrin!
You can make a magey Dwarf Artificer with a warhammer. Sort of magey, and very Dwarfey.
Well yah, but since the artificier doesn't have that much melee potential it wouldn't exactly feel the same. I'm talking about a dwarven warrior that can control earth and/or fire while doing alot of damage with a giant maul or craghammer. Something along the lines of a swordmage who doesn't have a sword, not some guy who blasts at people from the backline and occasionally hits people with a hammer that he most likely doesn't have the strenght to weild properly. You can't make a warrior mage with a weapon other than some kind of sword without hybriding or multiclassing. If you want a ranged magic user, you can already make that with a single class. You can't however make an arcane warrior who has a battle axe without delving into more complicated rule systems. Sure, I'll buy the book even if the elementalist comes as a ranged class. But even if they do I would still like to make a greataxe wielding mage without having to hybrid something, and hopefully when HOTEC comes out I won't have to.
well, however they do it, I just hope that scar is the elementalist, cause the game really needs a warrior mage that doesn't use a sword. I mean really, If I want to make a dwarven warmage, he can't just go around swinging around a longsword like some sort of pansy eladrin!
You can make a magey Dwarf Artificer with a warhammer. Sort of magey, and very Dwarfey.
Well yah, but since the artificier doesn't have that much melee potential it wouldn't exactly feel the same. I'm talking about a dwarven warrior that can control earth and/or fire while doing alot of damage with a giant maul or craghammer. Something along the lines of a swordmage who doesn't have a sword, not some guy who blasts at people from the backline and occasionally hits people with a hammer that he most likely doesn't have the strenght to weild properly. You can't make a warrior mage with a weapon other than some kind of sword without hybriding or multiclassing. If you want a ranged magic user, you can already make that with a single class. You can't however make an arcane warrior who has a battle axe without delving into more complicated rule systems. Sure, I'll buy the book even if the elementalist comes as a ranged class. But even if they do I would still like to make a greataxe wielding mage without having to hybrid something, and hopefully when HOTEC comes out I won't have to.
That sounds pretty freaking awesome.
you know now that I think of it, all of the classes seem to be pretty bendery, the sorcerer could be a bender that uses a weapon, the monk could be a bender that knows martial arts and the wizard could be a bender that focuses almost entirely on bending. It's just a wild guess, but from the few powers that I can see from the very little art that I've seen, maybe the elemental power source, theme wise, involves creating and controling their respective elements, and since the main characters we can see focus only on one element, maybe the mechanics of the power source is that you start off by picking an element that focuses on a specific thing as a secondary role. Maybe there will even be a feat you can take that let's you take up another element along side the one you already have. Just a thought.
Why do people keep thinking the sorcerer is going to be a weapon-based subclass? Near as I can tell, the one quote comparing the sorcerer to the slayer in how it functions doesn't even hint at melee or weapons. Seems far more plausible to me that it means a non-AEDU setup to modify how an at-will attack works. Sure, with the slayer that was melee basic attack. But for sorcerer, it seems more plausible to me that "iconic" sorcerer, tossing around blasts of elemental energy, would work with at-will "stances" (or analogs) that modify how a single at-will spell works. Not dissimilar to how the 3.5 warlock had invocations that modified eldritch blast - adding energy types and effects or changing the attack shape. Not saying your idea is necessarily wrong, but based on what I've heard, both ideas remain possible while mine seems more plausible. All speculation of course. But it seems strange to me that all the speculation about the sorcerer seems to focus on what sounds like a long shot. Especially since post Essentials subclasses all seem to be working to get back to iconic classes - reinvisioning very familiar concepts with more unique mechanics.
I think what was said was that the elementalist would be something "along the lines" of the slayer. Now ok to some that could mean how it works mechanically but to others it could mean how the class feels conceptually. "along the lines" is not strictly defined one way or the other. We only know that the elementalist will be similar to the slayer in some way. The art is what pushes some of us toward thinking that it might be the later.
About bending: I also intend to use the last air bender as an inspiration for my shugenja. What I'm really hoping is that the shugenja, like the berserker, has multiple roles or roles based on elemental specialty. Actually I think I said this already in the begining. I'm just so excited about this book I can't help but repeat myself. I really would like to be a water bender leader.
The Shugenja kept the monk's unarmored agility and unarmed strike.
Lost flurry of blows in exchange for one of four "similar" elemental options.
water: gained a healing power it could use twice per encounter (secondary stat mod bonus to health gained)
fire: gained a power that would allow it to direct a small bit of fire damage (secondary stat mod worth) at an adjacent enemy (or even an enemy at range) on a successful hit with any other monk power.
Air: gained a power that does very little or no damage but allows the shugenja the slide some enemies around on a hit with a monk power. Slide distance based on secondary stat mod.
earth: gained a power that let it mark one or more enemies when succeeding to hit using any monk power. Plus a power that lets it punish an enemy who ignores the mark as an OA. (secondary stat mod + 2 auto damage to the enemy if he's within range) You raise a large boulder from the ground and fling it at him.
Additionally some incentive for each of the four builds to select powers with their elemental keyword should be included to give them that specialist feel. I also think restricting them from selecting powers with the opposite element would enhance that. The problem with that is earth, air and water (except cold) lack a damage type. I see no reason there should be a "rock damage" or "water damage" etc. Many existing powers have used untyped damage. Maybe an air, earth and water keyword not linked to damage type could be used. Though cluttering a power with keywords could end up being a problem I already have a rough time explaining to some that there's no such thing as "arcane damage" due to arcane keyword and so forth.
Secondly if the shugenja is intended to be backwards compatible like the skald, berserker, protector and witch. Meaning that they can share powers with their parent class. Then I think the powers will have to have the full discipline keyword. So we may be seeing some bender like ways of getting around the battlefield. If not then I hope they come up with something better but it seems to me making a new monk and not allowing the old monk to gain some nifty new powers from it would not be how they should do it. A new monk build should also lend support to the old monk.
p.s. Oh yeah, ki focuses! er I mean foci... My key focus is going to be a tea set. Hopefully we'll see some nice new ki foci in this book
Ooh ok here's an idea for an earth shugenja defender.
You trigger this at-will power when you hit with a monk attack power. (or maybe not on a hit but by simply attacking a target) It allows you to then mark an enemy within range. you can mark additional enemies as you level up. You use your elemental mastery to lift a large bolder up from the ground and suspend it in air near you giving you a +2 shield bonus to AC and allowing the earth shugenja to have defenses on par with other defenders. Then if a marked enemy shifts or makes an attack that does not include you as a target you use an OA to fling the boulder, close blast so as not to incur opportunity attacks, but then you loose your shield bonus because you no longer have a giant rock floating in your space.
How long should the mark last I wonder? do you drop the rock or crumble it if you do not use it by the beginning of your next turn. That would mean the mark only lasts one round. Or can your mark last allowing you to mark another enemy the next turn but not summon another rock, you would already have one and shield bonuses don't stack anyway. You would be able to keep the shield bonus as long as an enemy was marked or until you activated your OA. Maybe the mark could be (save ends)?
I know the berserker was a new and in my opinion great idea, but that was in their most recently published player book (I don't count the BoVD because it's mostly a DM book and the player content is horrid). It's unlikely that just a few months later they would have embraced a concept they tried with just one class. If you're looking for multiple subclasses with different roles, that could happen eventually, but it's probably not going to happen now.
Even if the shugenja got builds, it's far more likely to get something like "air" and "water" builds, so they can later expand on it if they want to do so. The same might go for the elementalist, only with "fire" and "earth." Only speculation, though.
The unfortunate thing with WotC's business model is that since they cut down on DDI content, they stopped trying to "throw good money after bad." This is why you have seen one article for the runepriest, zero for the seeker, just a few for the wilden, and virtually none for the shardmind or githzerai (at least after their release)--because they simply aren't popular. From their standpoint, it makes less sense to try and flesh out the sentinel with winter or autumn builds because it's not often played. Their was a binder article but the class (and all the content in the article) was nearly universally panned so I doubt we'll see much support for them. Whether or not we see more elemental builds later on likely depends on both the strength and the popularity of the class itself.
Also, it should be noted that we probably won't see "Elemental" added as a power source to the classes, but probably only as a keyword on powers. Looking through both of the Heroes of _____ books so far, a majority of the classes didn't get an added power source, and 100% of those that did got the Martial power source. The only (somewhat) exception is the vampire, which is completely Shadow, but it was a whole new class. And we all know how popular and good it turned out to be ...
So I understand being optimistic, but most likely these classes will be similar to E-classes, with the Sha'ir probably following the witch's or mage's path being very AEDU, the elementalist being similar to the slayer, and the shugenja an unknown at this point (though with the populairty of HotF classes I'd say it's probably closer to AEDU style). Let's just hope they're well-thought out, well-designed, and popular.
what does AEDU stand for?
At-Will/Encounter/Daily/Utility
what does AEDU stand for?
At-Will/Encounter/Daily/Utility
thanks
hopefully nobody minds me double posting but I just looks at the book cover, and the Sha'ir is chucking lightning at the thing grappling her. So maybe elemental power isn't as bendery as we originally thought. We can still reflavour, but the starting fluff may be more "I summon a rock golum" rather than "I create a giant stone puppet with my bending".
Well, Incenjucar had a good point when he mentioned that "elemental power" isn't just bending. That's one way of representing it, and a very fundamental way at that. Most likely, the Sha'ir will have some sort of connection either via genies (unfortunately similar to the witch) or just in arcane power that happens to be elemental as well.
If you're looking for a "bender" class, then the elementalist or possibly shugenja is where you'll find that. Honestly, it would be damn foolish for WotC not to cash in on how popular "bending" is with at least one class, and my guess is that the "innate elemental user" elementalist will be that class. It's also possible the shugenja will fill that from a more studied and disciplined side. But like I said, WotC would just be dumb not to make something resembling a "bender."
On a side note, I can't wait for Legend of Kora to come out
In the US, a "bender" is also a term for getting drunk. Also, the name of everyone's favorite chaotic neutral Mexican robot.
The Avatar cartoon is very well made and highly popular in the anglosphere...
Cartoons can be art, ya know. Deep at least.
In the US, a "bender" is also a term for getting drunk. Also, the name of everyone's favorite chaotic neutral Mexican robot.
The Avatar cartoon is very well made and highly popular in the anglosphere...
Cartoons can be art, ya know. Deep at least.
Certainly. When I first saw the Avatar: The Last Air-Bender series I threw my fist in the air and cheered, because they were introducing my beloved elementalism to the whole country, in a way that I am still in no position to do myself. Animation and comics are the best place to find new flashy ideas for fantasy, since they tend to have a lot of one-shot characters who can be experimented with in a single episode or magazine, while a novel or a game usually has to devote significant resources to anything it includes.
As for the actual classes, I personally think that it's going to work like the pact system for the warlock. Have the main class features change with each element you pick, and while you can take powers from any element you want, some powers gain bonuses depending on what element you pick.
I hope that you do not have to pick one element to focus on or that each class role is only conected to one element.
As the realm is called the elemental chaos I feel it should be in some part chaotic, unfocused, and random.
I hope that you do not have to pick one element to focus on or that each class role is only conected to one element.
Just because the Elemental Chaos itself is chaotic and random, that doesn't mean all those who tap into its power have to be chaotic and random. But I do agree that tying each class or role to a single element would be boring (as well as being hard to balance - if all your attacks do fire damage and nothing but fire damage, you either need to be able to bypass resistance/immunity or you'll be completely useless in some encounters).
As the realm is called the elemental chaos I feel it should be in some part chaotic, unfocused, and random.
I hope that you do not have to pick one element to focus on or that each class role is only conected to one element.
Just because the Elemental Chaos itself is chaotic and random, that doesn't mean all those who tap into its power have to be chaotic and random. But I do agree that tying each class or role to a single element would be boring (as well as being hard to balance - if all your attacks do fire damage and nothing but fire damage, you either need to be able to bypass resistance/immunity or you'll be completely useless in some encounters).
I don't think these classes will be tied to a single element. Just guessing but...
I see the elementalist as a fighter/caster who's attacks chaotically fluctuate from element to element.
I see the sha-ir as a wizard who's genie companion allows him to cast more potent spells. limited wish anyone?
I do however think that the shugenja will have to choose a specialty. I don't know how it was for the original D&D shugenja but the L5R version had to pick a specialty and was restricted from spells of the opposite element. It could still learn spells of the other two neutral elements. The shugenja has little to fear from resistances/immunities because water, earth and air lack a damage type and I'm willing to bet that if there is a fire build it'll have dmg resistance avoidance.
So for example, I might choose a fire mephit familiar. Each extended rest, I could then swap some of my usual known spells for spells with the 'fire' or 'radiant' keywords. Or I instead I might choose a storm marid familiar and could swap for spells with the 'lightning' or 'thunder' keywords. There could then be a sha'ir-only paragon path that gives access to a second familiar's set of keywords.
As the realm is called the elemental chaos I feel it should be in some part chaotic, unfocused, and random.
I hope that you do not have to pick one element to focus on or that each class role is only conected to one element.
Just because the Elemental Chaos itself is chaotic and random, that doesn't mean all those who tap into its power have to be chaotic and random. But I do agree that tying each class or role to a single element would be boring (as well as being hard to balance - if all your attacks do fire damage and nothing but fire damage, you either need to be able to bypass resistance/immunity or you'll be completely useless in some encounters).
I don't think these classes will be tied to a single element. Just guessing but...
I see the elementalist as a fighter/caster who's attacks chaotically fluctuate from element to element.
I see the sha-ir as a wizard who's genie companion allows him to cast more potent spells. limited wish anyone?
I do however think that the shugenja will have to choose a specialty. I don't know how it was for the original D&D shugenja but the L5R version had to pick a specialty and was restricted from spells of the opposite element. It could still learn spells of the other two neutral elements. The shugenja has little to fear from resistances/immunities because water, earth and air lack a damage type and I'm willing to bet that if there is a fire build it'll have dmg resistance avoidance.
Wind could be force damage. Water could be cold damage. Earth could be ... uhm ... yeah ... I got nothing there.
Fire: fire
Air: thunder, lightning, force and untyped
Water: cold, acid and untyped
Earth: untyped, and maybe force and acid (because aicd has always been with earth for some reason)
Most likely though only one class will have true sympathies to just one/two elements. the others will likely be more generalistic.
If I had to guess, if there were indeed elemental builds, that powers would be typed as such:
Fire: fire
Air: thunder, lightning, force and untyped
Water: cold, acid and untyped
Earth: untyped, and maybe force and acid (because aicd has always been with earth for some reason)
Most likely though only one class will have true sympathies to just one/two elements. the others will likely be more generalistic.
Those look pretty good, but I can actually see a few fire attacks doing cold damge. Perhaps something flavored in such a way that you draw the heat from a target with a magical inferno.
It would be strange to have one set have only one damage type, but if it's any of them, it will be fire.
If I had to guess, if there were indeed elemental builds, that powers would be typed as such:
Fire: fire
Air: thunder, lightning, force and untyped
Water: cold, acid and untyped
Earth: untyped, and maybe force and acid (because aicd has always been with earth for some reason)
Most likely though only one class will have true sympathies to just one/two elements. the others will likely be more generalistic.
Those look pretty good, but I can actually see a few fire attacks doing cold damge. Perhaps something flavored in such a way that you draw the heat from a target with a magical inferno.
It would be strange to have one set have only one damage type, but if it's any of them, it will be fire.
Lightning can also go under fire, y'know...
The only damage types I can't see fitting in anywhere ar Necrotic and Pyschic, but I'm sure even those could be flavored into a 'pyschic fire' or a 'deathly cold' or something like this.
IMO, elemental magic should not be capable of dealing necrotic or psychic damage. The Elemental Chaos is the realm of the purely physical, as distinct from the realm of thoughts, emotions and souls that is the Astral Sea. Damage types that represent purely mental or spiritual trauma have no place in elemental powers.
Fair enough. If they did come up, they'd need to be quite rare.
When do you think we'll start seeing previews/excerpts? The book comes out next month, right?
mondays and wednessdays starting jan 16
I just hope they preview the better parts of the book, and don't do what HotF did. It was a great book, but they previewed the witch, satyr, background-things and pixie mainly. Of those, the pixie was the real star while the witch was just ... bad. I hope they show us the parts that shine.
Man, there are so many character archetypes that fit under wizard that it makes total sense that there would be a buttload of wizard subclasses.
Bah, Warlock / Sorcerors no less so Wizard isnt any more generic.
And technically Historically the distinction between arcane/divine is minimal.
One mans sainted miracle worker is his adversaries witch or sorceror.
A wizard with positive connotations is a priest.
I think there is actually some interesting dichotemies that can be explored because there is a distinction between Arcane and Divine (in some ways its a reflection of the adversarialism of science vs faith for instance).
I just think lumping all of arcane under a wizard banner is not useful as it undermines the other possiblities. Which was my original response.