Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 asmodeuslore Oct 25, 2010 7:38:54	Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdom Excerpts Essentials: Ranger Rangers such as the scout mix a singular two-weapon combat style with a mastery of primal magic to overwhelm their foes. Talk about this Preview here.
#2 dbmeboy Oct 25, 2010 16:15:45	Is it just me, or does Dual Weapon Attack allow 2 swings with the off-hand weapon?  It requires the extra attack it gives you to be with the off-hand, but doesn't require the initial attack that hits to be main-hand.  I feel like there's a way to abuse this somehow, but I'm not sure how.
#3 mellored Oct 25, 2010 16:21:24	Only if your holding a utility item (one that you just use for it's power) in your main hand, or if you don't want to keep up 2 weapons. Other then that, off-hand tend to be lower in damage.
#4 dbmeboy Oct 25, 2010 16:35:51	I guess I was thinking that there had to be some magic weapon that would make it worth it.  Also, I forgot that this was still a ranger so he can't use the multiclass to get the 1-handed weapon as off-hand ability.
#5 Damon_Tor Oct 25, 2010 21:39:46	The class has absurdly high potential at-will DPR.  This is perhaps balanced by the fact that it's only encounter power can't be used with its striker damage feature (which is always better to use anyway) and so, in effect have no encounter or daily powers. That's all I see here.  Massively overpowered RAI, broken by a bug RAW.
#6 the1darklord Oct 26, 2010 6:00:08	The class has absurdly high potential at-will DPR.  This is perhaps balanced by the fact that it's only encounter power can't be used with its striker damage feature (which is always better to use anyway) and so, in effect have no encounter or daily powers. That's all I see here.  Massively overpowered RAI, broken by a bug RAW. I don't get you, are you talking about the Power Strike encounter power? It's a free action that triggers just like Dual Weapon Attack. You can absolutely use multiple free actions. Daniel.
#7 AaronOfBarbaria Oct 26, 2010 7:51:08	The class has absurdly high potential at-will DPR.  This is perhaps balanced by the fact that it's only encounter power can't be used with its striker damage feature (which is always better to use anyway) and so, in effect have no encounter or daily powers. That's all I see here.  Massively overpowered RAI, broken by a bug RAW. I don't get you, are you talking about the Power Strike encounter power? It's a free action that triggers just like Dual Weapon Attack. You can absolutely use multiple free actions. Daniel.  Both Power Strike and Dual Weapon Attack are listed as being attack type powers, and there is a limitation as to how many free actions you may take to use attack type powers within a certain time frame. By the rules as they are written, you cannot use Power Strike and Dual Weapon Attack at the same time in any way.
#8 the1darklord Oct 26, 2010 7:56:14	That's just extra attacks isn't? Power Strike isn't an extra attack it's extra damage. Do you have a page ref for the rule you are talking about? I'd like to look at the specifics. Cheers, Daniel.
#9 AaronOfBarbaria Oct 26, 2010 8:05:19	That's just extra attacks isn't? Power Strike isn't an extra attack it's extra damage. Do you have a page ref for the rule you are talking about? I'd like to look at the specifics. Cheers, Daniel.  Page 103 of the compiled updates, and page 194 of the Rules Compendium both use the words "attack power," which refers to the term "attack" being found between the class and level spot on the upper left of a power description, not to a power that actually involves an attack roll.
#10 the1darklord Oct 26, 2010 8:44:03	Ah thanks for that, I see what you saying it's very badly worded... A creature can take a free action to use an attack power only once per turn. Creatures don’t normally have attack powers that can be used as free actions, but some powers and other effects grant the ability to use an attack power (usually a basic attack) as a free action. For example, a character might have two different abilities that let him or her make a melee basic attack as a free action when their respectivetriggers occur. If both abilities are triggered on the same turn, the character can make only one of the melee basic attacks during that turn.  You'd think WOTC would know their own rules better wouldn't you? Daniel.
#11 dowanroden Oct 26, 2010 8:48:03	Yeah, the change to Free Actions (or rather, how many you can perform of which type of action) predates Essentials to combat the problem of Infinite Damage (doing damage or gaining more attacks beyond reason) possible with certain builds.  Seeing that they put the changes to print (I believe you can find it's prior entries only in the Compendium, FAQ and Errata) solidifies the rule nicely.
#12 the1darklord Oct 26, 2010 8:57:33	It confusing as the last sentence only refers to melee basic attacks, which doesn't make much sense. Daniel.
#13 AaronOfBarbaria Oct 26, 2010 9:50:01	It confusing as the last sentence only refers to melee basic attacks, which doesn't make much sense. Daniel.  Here is a breakdown to help you out: "There is an exception to this rule: A creature can take a free action to use an attack power only once per turn. Creature's don't normally have attack powers that can be used as free actions, but some powers and other effects grant the ability to use an attack power (usually a basic attack) as a free action. For instance, a character might have two different abilities that let him or her make a melee basic attack as a free action when their respective triggers occur. If both abilities are triggered on the same turn, the character may only make one of the melee basic attacks during that turn." The bold portion is the actual text of the rule, the normal portion is elaboration on the rule, italic portions are examples, and I underlined the italic sections that cause melee basic attacks to be called out simply as part of the example. Nothing except the bold portion is actually part of the rule.
#14 the1darklord Oct 26, 2010 10:10:51	Cheers, that does make more sense now.  Daniel.
#15 JohnLynch Oct 26, 2010 18:43:00	You'd think WOTC would know their own rules better wouldn't you? Not really, no. The existence of 3.5, 4th ed and the Rules Compendium is proof they don't know how to write rules. The fact D&D is playable at all is quite a miracle.
#16 Cyber-Dave Oct 28, 2010 17:24:45	The class has absurdly high potential at-will DPR.  This is perhaps balanced by the fact that it's only encounter power can't be used with its striker damage feature (which is always better to use anyway) and so, in effect have no encounter or daily powers. That's all I see here.  Massively overpowered RAI, broken by a bug RAW. I really don't agree. It is just twin-strike, with ability modifier damage to both attacks, but no hunters query bonus damage. I also see no reason why it should be used in conjunction with their encounter powers. I think it looks fine. I may be missing something though.
#17 AaronOfBarbaria Oct 28, 2010 18:09:02	The class has absurdly high potential at-will DPR.  This is perhaps balanced by the fact that it's only encounter power can't be used with its striker damage feature (which is always better to use anyway) and so, in effect have no encounter or daily powers. That's all I see here.  Massively overpowered RAI, broken by a bug RAW. I really don't agree. It is just twin-strike, with ability modifier damage to both attacks, but no hunters query bonus damage. I also see no reason why it should be used in conjunction with their encounter powers. I think it looks fine. I may be missing something though. Here's a comparison of damage ranges (assuming both attacks hit) of each power, using a pair of longswords for TS vs. longsword + shortsword for DWS, and leaving out all other details as they can be identically applied to both and are irrelevant to the numbers because of that. presented as: die rolls+modifiers; range - average 1st level TS damage range: 2d8+1d6; 3-22 -12.5 1st level DWS damage range: 1d8+4+1d6+4; 10-22 - 16 11th level TS damage range: 2d8+2d6; 4-28 - 16 11th level DWS damage range: 1d8+5+1d6+5; 12-24 - 18 21st level TS damage range: 4d8+3d6; 7-50 - 28.5 21st level DWS damage range: 2d8+7+2d6+7; 18-42 - 30 30th levle DWS damage range (for the heck of it): 2d8+8+2d6+8; 20-44 - 32 So there you can see why the damage is sometimes referred to as "absurdly high," as better minimum damage expectation on a hit + better average damage expectation on a hit = 2/3 types of damage expectation being better, which means better damage.
#18 Cyber-Dave Oct 30, 2010 15:00:08	Based on those numbers, I really don't see why they are refereed to as being "absurdly high." The average damage of a single hit is somewhat better. The minimum damage is better, the maximum damage is worse. That is the pattern across the board. Your math does not factor in the higher average damage (overall, not on a single attack) that the TS ranger will get from higher damage critical hits. It also does not factor in that the two will not benefit equally from feats. A TS ranger can turn his hunters query damage into d8's (which ups both their average and maximum damage), and if they take the feats to wield a d12 one handed superior weapon they gain more benefits from that than the scout will (as the scout will only be able to apply the benefits of that feat to one of its attacks, and the TS ranger will be able to apply it to both). Really, all in all, I don't see anything that is "absurdly high." It seems pretty well balanced to me. If anything, I am a little worried that at higher levels a scout will fall behind (due to a lack of striker damage bonus that can be applied to its per encounter abilities)...
#19 Kaviyd3 Nov 01, 2010 22:49:01	I think the chance to hit was also ignored.  Twin Strike has two independent rolls to hit, while the Essentials Ranger equivalent has a second attack that you only get if your first attack hit.  On that basis, I would hope that the new ability has higher average damage.
#20 devp Nov 02, 2010 1:49:46	So, from what I know of Drizzt, the Scout does not let your portray a Drizzt-alike. (Because you wield a weapon + off-hand weapon, not two swords/scimitars.) How do folks feel about that?
#21 AaronOfBarbaria Nov 02, 2010 3:32:43	So, from what I know of Drizzt, the Scout does not let your portray a Drizzt-alike. (Because you wield a weapon + off-hand weapon, not two swords/scimitars.) How do folks feel about that? I am more than fine with it since, to my knowledge, the "you wield two weapons," part of the Ranger class was added in after Drizzt became a popular enough character that players wanted to "play as Drizzt."
#22 Cyber-Dave Nov 02, 2010 14:14:10	So, from what I know of Drizzt, the Scout does not let your portray a Drizzt-alike. (Because you wield a weapon + off-hand weapon, not two swords/scimitars.) How do folks feel about that? There is already a ranger build for Drizzt style rangers in the PHB 1. I see no reason why that type of ranger has to be replicated with the scout. I like its lighter (offhand) weapons, but dex focused instead of strength focused, approach. It makes this build a new build instead of a replacement build, which is ultimately what I am looking for from my Essentials products; that is to say, I am looking for new options to add to my existing 4e game.
#23 devp Nov 02, 2010 15:52:59	I like that the Scout mixes a main weapon with an off-hand weapon. Dual wielding katanas feels awesome, and yet makes me feel like I'm trapped in a Vampire LARP or something.
#24 Tony_Vargas Nov 02, 2010 16:52:06	So, the DWS is a free attack that goes off if your primary attack hits.  You can never hit with just your secondary attack. Assuming a 50% chance to hit, average damage at 1st level with just nothing going for you but an 18 stat should be something like: TS:  (1d8)/2+(1d8)/2+3(1d6)/4 = 2.25+2.25+2.625 = 7.075  DWS:  (1d8+4 +(1d6+4)/2)/2    =  4.25 + 1.825 =        6.05 As you add damage bonuses, of course, TS does better, as it always has, because of the two separate attack rolls increasing your chance to hit.    So it's really not out of line, at all.  I was wondering how they were going to deliver an MBA-spamming version of TWF without being overpowered.  This did the trick.
#25 Salamandyr2000 Nov 14, 2010 11:25:35	I like that the Scout mixes a main weapon with an off-hand weapon. Dual wielding katanas feels awesome, and yet makes me feel like I'm trapped in a Vampire LARP or something. Who wields katanas?  Case backsword is where it's at. I don't even consider sword and dagger dual wielding.