By what means is it invested in the Avenger?
Take the cleric for instance. The cleric is usually ordained by another cleric/priest of the same order and that is how he (or she
) receives his power or even rarely have the power personally invested by a deity. As a result, a cleric can 'worship' a deity, an alignment, or a philosophy. (This leaves one to wonder how the first cleric who worshipped a philosophy or an alignment came to be, but that is a thread for another subforum. ) By core rules, it is not necessary for a cleric to choose a deity. However, the core rules do demand that a Paladin choose a deity I believe. (Also, that Paladin's alignment must match that of the deity. There is an exception: if one takes the soldier of faith feat, the paladin paragon paths can be accessed without matching the deity's alignment. A loophole.
Paldins created by multiclassing could also be 'ordained' into a religion that follows a philosophy and that way avoid even choosing a deity at all.) The rules also demand the Invoker (already available in the character builder, levels 1-3 only, I believe.) choose a deity.So, does anyone know if the Avenger is required to choose a deity?
Can the Avenger be 'ordained' in such a way as to not require one?
Have any hints been released? (I'm hoping that they have the same options as clerics in this regard.
)I am having difficulty in waiting one more month.
I want my half-orcs again too.
Through rites of investiture, avengers, clerics, and paladins gain the ability to manifest echoes of that power, uttering careful prayers and channeling divine energy through their holy symbols."
So, expect it to be largely the same as a Paladin or Cleric, probably with a more "smite evil" bent to it, as they are strikers.
So, expect it to be largely the same as a Paladin or Cleric, probably with a more "smite evil" bent to it, as they are strikers.
Are they confirmed as Strikers yet? I thought not, but I could be wrong. (Of course, we're all expecting it.)
Are they confirmed as Strikers yet? I thought not, but I could be wrong. (Of course, we're all expecting it.)
tonight at my game our group fell into a bit of disagreement here...of 7 people at teh store 3 felt it looked like a defender...2 felt it looked like a striker, 1 guy (unfortonalty I have to say I know him) said it looked more like a controler...and our DM said he thinks it is a new role...
so atleast here in CT we are not sure aht to make of it yet...
Are they confirmed as Strikers yet? I thought not, but I could be wrong. (Of course, we're all expecting it.)
I don't think the confirmation has been made. However I seem to recall that someone or another did some number crunching to confirm that it has damage output comparable to other strikers.
They are primarily thought to be the "dark striker-type" that was mentioned to us in a dev PH2 hint waaay back, but we know how much things can change.
The sample Avenger is Unaligned and follows Kord, who is also Unaligned, so it is possible that the same alignment as your deity is required.
Are they confirmed as Strikers yet? I thought not, but I could be wrong. (Of course, we're all expecting it.)
We have a preview of them. They choose a single enemy, have powers to draw that enemy into unfavorable positions, and then significant bonuses to attacking that enemy and to following that enemy wherever he goes.
That seems awfully Striker to me.
On the Defender level, if you teleport a monster a few spaces away from your friends, and the interpose your body between the monster and your allies, it is probably going to attack you. Since it is attacking you and not your friends, this is Defending. But this is not a trick you can perform at will- it seems to require encounter powers or better. And if the monster decides to leave, the only thing you can do is run after it faster than normal.
On the Controller level, you can move enemies around the battlefield effectively. But generally you only move one at a time, and a fair amount of the time you're instead moving yourself to keep up with the enemies as they move as they choose, instead of telling them how they can move.
As for Leader abilities, their Channel Divinity power aids an ally. But it aids an ally in beating up their chosen foe, and this is probably explained best by the fact that the Avenger is a Divine class, and they all tend to have a tiny drop of Leader in them.
So I'm going with Striker, minor in Defender and Controller, possibly one build focusing on each of them.
Yeah, per the Invoker description they are ordained somehow similar to the way Clerics and Paladins are ordained.
They are primarily thought to be the "dark striker-type" that was mentioned to us in a dev PH2 hint waaay back, but we know how much things can change.
The sample Avenger is Unaligned and follows Kord, who is also Unaligned, so it is possible that the same alignment as your deity is required.
This gets to crux I am cobcerned with.
About clerics, from the PHB, p. 61
All clerics choose a specific faith to which they devote themselves. Usually this faith is the worship of a specific patron deity- for example, Moradin, Pelor, or Erathis. Sometimes clerics are devoted to churches, that venerate groups of deities or philosophies.
...Clerics are usually formally ordained by existing clerics who perform a special ritual to do so, but on rare occasions a deity moves to directly ordain a worthy worshipper without any sort of priestly hierarchy involved.
I personally added the emphasis within the quote.
It is not necessary for a cleric to worship a deity, a philosophy may be worshipped instead.
About Paladins beginning on p. 90:
As fervent crusaders in their chosen cause, paladins must choose a deity. Paladins choose a specific faith to serve as well as an alignment. You must choose an alignment identical to that of your patron deity;
Again I personally added the emphasis.
Without a doubt, paladins (as a character class...) must choose a deity.
Without a doubt their alignment must match that of their deity.
Side note: by taking soldier of the faith (PHB p. 208), one is considered a paldin without actually being one. There is nothing forcing a soldier of the faith to choose a deity or alignment.
Continuing:
Paladins are not granted their powers directly by their deity, but instead through various rites performed when they first become paladins. Most of these rites involve days of prayer, vigils, tests and trials, and ritual purification followed by a knighting ceremony.
So, it appears that deities never grant powers to be a paladin. It can inly be conferred (the knighting...) through an order of some sort.
My question, which obviously there is not enough available information to answer
, is are Avengers require to choose a deity like a paladin or can it be conferred by an order without such a choice similar to a cleric being ordained by a priest of a faith that worships a particular philosophy instead of a deity? 
One month to go.
Well, when you get down to splitting hairs that fine doesn't it just kinda fall where you want it to in your game??????? I mean, that seems like a pretty small nuance there. If I wanted there to be Paladins of some philosophy in my campaign I wouldn't see it as that much of a stretch. Some people might not like it for their games because they want Paladins to be champions of a deity....but "champions of a cause," again, doesn't seem like too much of a stretch IMHO.
I know that I can do anything I want ot do.
Sometimes I just like to follow the rules as written and other times the DM might need persuading.
For instance, it is perfectly clear that the intent of the paladin class is to venerate one deity in particular.
However, the soldier of faith feat does not actually make one's character into a paladin with all the class features etc. It merely gives access to some 'items' (powers, paragon paths, and feats) of the paladin. Also, specific individual descriptions have been given leeway to create exceptions to rules. Soldier of faith being both the alignment and deity exception to the paladin must have an alignment matching a specific patron deity.
Because the cleric class was explicitly described with alternatives to choosing a specific deity, those alternatives fall within the intent of the class.
So, I'm looking forward to discovering the specific intent associated with the avenger class.
I have some character concepts hinging on it.I know that I can do anything I want ot do.
Yeah, sorry, didn't mean it to sound like that. I, of course, figured you knew that. :D I guess I just didn't read the deity req under Paladins as closely. "You are a divine warrior, a crusader and protector of your faith" who has "pledged [your] prowess to something greater than [yourself]" seems broad enough to me, but the key part you mention seems to be the difference between the Clerics & Deities section and the Paladins & Deities section. Hmm...I think the devs' actual intent is still arguable either way, but technically it does not mention philosophies under Paladins.
Sometimes I just like to follow the rules as written and other times the DM might need persuading.
Right. I see.
For instance, it is perfectly clear that the intent of the paladin class is to venerate one deity in particular.
See above paragraph.
However, the soldier of faith feat does not actually make one's character into a paladin with all the class features etc. It merely gives access to some 'items' (powers, paragon paths, and feats) of the paladin. Also, specific individual descriptions have been given leeway to create exceptions to rules. Soldier of faith being both the alignment and deity exception to the paladin must have an alignment matching a specific patron deity.
Because the cleric class was explicitly described with alternatives to choosing a specific deity, those alternatives fall within the intent of the class.
So, I'm looking forward to discovering the specific intent associated with the avenger class.
Your use of the word "intent" I think is what makes me squirm, but I think I see what you are saying. Your reading of soldier of faith is interesting. Huh...I guess it doesn't say you have to match alignment and be ordained, but you do "become" a paladin for purposes of PPs, etc. Yeah, lots of breathing room there.
Hm...Ultimately you are absolutely 100% correct: There is not enough available information to answer your central question. ;) Hehe.
In secret temples far from bustling cities and priestly hierarchies orders of esoteric warriors train their initiates in ancient traditions now forgotten or forbidden by [can't read] religious organizations. The champions of these orders are avengers - deadly weapons in the hands of their gods. Imbued with divine power through secret rites of initiation. In battle avengers swear to execute divine vengeance, entering a mental state that gives them unverving focus on a single enemy.
As an avenger you were trained in a monastery, initiated through secret rites and imbued with divine power to smite your gods fos. You might be a disciple of Ioun, sworn to hunt and exterminate the minions of Vecna until one day you face the maimed god. You could be an agent of the Raven Queen, bringing death to those who would defy your mistress. Or perhaps you save Bahamut as an agent of justice, bringing ruin to tyrants and oppressors. The organization devoted to your god might view you as an heretic or a hero, but you answer only to your god and to the vows you swore upon your initiation to an avenger.
Where will those vows lead you? One thing is certain: Doing the will of your god is never easy and never free of peril.
more info : http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1147127
From one of the above pics in the above link.
Choice of Deity: each avenger chooses a single deity from the pantheon and gives his or her exclusive service to that deity.
So, it looks more like Paladin than Cleric with respect to ordination and patron deities.
I guess it might be house rule time.
So, it looks more like Paladin than Cleric with respect to ordination and patron deities.
It makes sense to me. If you're being trained to murder people for the faith, you're going to have to have a hardcore devotion to one god. "Pelor commands you must die!" is more that sort of thing you'd expect from a divine assassin, instead of "You must die for the sake of reason, philosophy, and...uh, I think I was working for Bane this week, I don't remember honestly." *starts flipping through day planner*
I do like the bit about many Avengers drifting towards unaligned regardless of diety though. It's a nice touch.
But it's all in how you conceive the class, I suppose. I see Avengers as easily being the single-minded of the Divine Classes. I mean, being brought up in a reclusive monastic fortress and drilled in a 100 secret methods of killa-fying enemies of the faith doesn't usually lend itself to tolerance, open-mindness, or even a thriving social life. Avengers are weapons, and weapons must be sharp.
Clerics by contrast, have it a lot easier. They generally serve as the backbone of the church and focus on healing and protecting others. Not as many hard moral choices or personal sacrifices needed there. Clerics don't need to get their hands dirty unless they want to.
Paladins are pretty zealous, but in an easy to understand way. Even if you're a Dark Knight type of Paladin, most people are going to have a grudging respect for a guy who values honor, protects his comrades, and challenges people to one on one duels. "Hey, did you hear about that paladin who walked up to a bad guy and beat him in a totally fair straightforward fight? What a jerk!"
Invokers are the more scholarly or prophetic types, so they are more likely to see the bigger picture, but they can be just as zealous as anyone else, and they have the destructive power to back it up. The fun thing about Invokers is that they have the position to tick off their own church and their enemies at the same time.
I have to admit, when I first heard there were going to be new divine classes in the PHB 2, I was pretty worried about grid filling, but after seeing the Invoker and the Avenger, I'm actually getting lots of new story ideas, and I'm really starting to enjoy the way the power sources allow for highly themed campaigns (An all divine group could be awesome) and help flesh out existing classes. That is, Clerics and Paladins seem even more interesting to me now that they can be contrasted against Invokers and Avengers.
Some key phrases:
"Die, monster! You don't belong in this world!"
"I'll kill you AND the night!"
He's gonna be Lawful Cheesy. :D