This may seem like an odd question, but really, it seems like buying all the books is pretty questionable, or even a large number of them.
With just the relevant player's handbook and the X power book, you've got about nine choices for each power at each level. While this may not sound like all that many, because you only get one at each level, and you're probably not going to play more than two or three characters of a given class per edition, it seems like just having the core book plus one splatbook (the one for each power source) should be sufficient to play all the characters you'd want to from one class. One power book gives you access to four classes worth of splat powers, but even assuming you wanted to play a different sort of character for each class, you'd still not need the additional splatbook.
So really, how useful is Martial Power 2? It seems like these books give you diminishing returns. Sure, there may be some stuff in there that you'll use, but it means you're getting not only less out of MP2, but less value out of MP as well as you're using less from each book.
So, tell me: Why would you buy these books?
I'm not complaining, I'm just asking if a lot of people who bought MP really plan to purchase MP2, and their reasoning/justification for it.
I'm going to buy it because I just enjoy reading rule books. :P
This. Definitely a reason for me. Also, even if I never use a rulebook or allow it at my table, I may glean one (or more) idea(s) from it that I had not thought of, which in turn can be incorporated as is or twisted as needed.
Also, I am a collector of all things D&D. That is probably the worst reason to buy, but I have enjoyed amassing a wall-full of D&D and related books over the past twenty years. they are all categorized by edition, type, setting, catalog #, etc. I love being able to pull something out and read up on it, again, not that I would ever use it wholesale, but just to get new ideas.
In fact, I just picked up a bunch of 2E Spelljammer and Odyssey stuff to round out those sections of my collection! I don't play the old editions any more, but just having the reference material is worth it to me.
I am working on a detailed electronic database of what each book contains for easier reference, but for now, I must use my memory!
I haven't bought, and don't plan to buy, any of the X Power books.
This is a phenomenon that ive seen a surprising amount of. When the Eberron Player's Guide came out, i showed up at the FLGS to pick it up only to find that the one copy that the owner ordered was sold. "You only ordered one copy?" i asked him, standing next to stands and bookshelves stocked with DnD books. "Yeah," he replied. "Not many people are buying the new books."
This boggled the hell out of me. I play in 3 different groups at this store and at least 2 to 3 full tables of LFR games are hosted there every week. The store is literally overflowing with 4E players so why are the books not selling?
I wandered over to the rooms where LFR games where being run, just to see if one of those guys bought the one copy of the EPG. When i got to the table i asked if anyone had picked up the book and my question was met with laughter. "Whats so funny?" i asked. "You know most of the options in the book are legal for your LFR game, right?"
"No, no, no..." they told me. "We don't buy books since we all make our characters with the character builder. Why waste our money on books?" Needless to say, I was flabbergasted.
The FLGS I play at ordered like 8 copies of Eberron and the owner ended up selling what was going to be his by the next day it was out. The next week, he ordered a few more and those sold out in a matter of 2 or 3 days also! Everyone at the FLGS that plays DND has a DDI subscription, and they still buy the books. (BTW it is in a town of under 14,000 people and not far from 2 larger cities)
All the players I play with fall into 2 categories, either they will buy x book because they like to read rulebooks(weird sickness,I know) and feel even if they get one thing out of it, it was worth it. Or the second being they pretty much collect DND stuff.
Finally I do agree, that unless Martial Power 2 (or Arcane Power 2 or any x2)offers some really great stuff, WOTC will end up running into the point of diminishing returns.
I haven't bought, and don't plan to buy, any of the X Power books. The character builder and compendium obsolete them for me. Even with that, I don't understand Martial Power 2, but I suspect I'm just not a huge fan of martial classes. OTOH I know people that are so I guess they'd get something from the book.
I like physical books, personally, but that said, you're completely right; 95% of the entirety of the Power books (which are basically all "crunch") appears in the compendium, so if you were going to save some money on books with a D&DI subscription, this would be a great place to start!
Me personally, I like reading the books. If I like a game system, I tend to try and buy as many books as I can.
The second is the art. It's not all great art and some of it is recycled, but it adds something to spark my imagination.
So, tell me: Why would you buy these books?
I collect D&D hardcovers. I use a few things out of every book I buy but bottm line, I collect them.
Why would I be interested in collecting something I'm gonna (eventually) get diminishing returns on? Even beyond the actual play, D&D is a hobby I like talking about, and I like to hear others talking about it. If there's something worth talking about, I want to know what it is ;). Assuming there has to be a reason beyond being obsessive-compulsive of course.
A) Books for DMs if you dont DM like open grave, draconomicon, etc. And vice versa.
B) The setting books - FR / eberron. Why? Because they are horrible value. The FR book has two races and two classes, which is what I want from books, and costs nearly as much as the PHB. Eberron has three races, one of which was already covered in Dragon, another which was in the MM with a different name, and -one- class. Very little material there for me.
B) The setting books - FR / eberron. Why? Because they are horrible value. The FR book has two races and two classes, which is what I want from books, and costs nearly as much as the PHB. Eberron has three races, one of which was already covered in Dragon, another which was in the MM with a different name, and -one- class. Very little material there for me.
You forget the ton of paragon paths and feats. When you add together the new class, new races, new paragon paths, new magic items, new feats, etc, there is a good amount of useful stuff. Of course there is still more pages dedicated to fluff that may be more worthless to you than the material in a PHB but the books are hardly as poor a value as you make them sound.
Now the campaign guides on the other hand...
Then again, writing good stories isn't the same as writing good rules, so I'd be careful with that, but I still wish more books were like that.
I have a DDI subscription and a mini-laptop with built-in internet connection that I take to every session. I also own every 4e book except for Draconicon, FR Campaign Guide and Manual of the Planes (excluding adventures) and I drag them along to the sessions as well. I am a player in an FR campaign as well as a DM for Dungeon Delve sessions (a replacement if the FR DM can't make the sessions.)
I love reading roleplay books, and for some reason I get more ideas from reading the books than I do looking in the CB and Compendium. One day, I will get the rest of the books, but I rarely use Dragons and MotP has very little player items. I am not running an FR Campaign, so that can wait, but I will pick ECG upon release as I plan to switch to an Eberron campaign eventually.
Besides, it's the only hobby I am willing to spend money on right now (other than DDO.) :D
I buy them because: 1) there's always soemthing useful I can get out fo them, 2) I like the fluff as well as the crunch so just using the CB and not buying the book is anathema to me, 3) I love 4e and want to continue supporting the company that has brought me such a wonderful game.
That being said, I didn't buy everythign for 3e. When some of the really new rules came out, like Incarnum, Heroes of Horror, Unearthed Arcana, etc., I never got those. Definitely got the splatbooks.
Martial and Shadow probably appeal to me least, but, of course, many players appreciate these.
Players buy those books that explore the parts of D&D they enjoy the most.
That having been said, it should come as no surprise that my priority is to buy books in this order:
- Books with stuff for the DM and the Players in equal amounts.
- Books with stuff more for Players.
- Books with stuff more or only for DMs.
So a book with new classes, races and items counts as the first kind of book, the power books count more as the second ,and the Draconomicon/Open Grave/Manual of the Planes get last pick. Though with the power books I plan on getting them in bundles of four (i.e. I won't buy the Martial, Arcane or Divine Power until Primal power comes out).
However ,the only books that hold no interest for me whatsoever are the campaign guides, and campaign specific modules. :D
This is a phenomenon that ive seen a surprising amount of. When the Eberron Player's Guide came out, i showed up at the FLGS to pick it up only to find that the one copy that the owner ordered was sold. "You only ordered one copy?" i asked him, standing next to stands and bookshelves stocked with DnD books. "Yeah," he replied. "Not many people are buying the new books."
This boggled the hell out of me. I play in 3 different groups at this store and at least 2 to 3 full tables of LFR games are hosted there every week. The store is literally overflowing with 4E players so why are the books not selling?
I wandered over to the rooms where LFR games where being run, just to see if one of those guys bought the one copy of the EPG. When i got to the table i asked if anyone had picked up the book and my question was met with laughter. "Whats so funny?" i asked. "You know most of the options in the book are legal for your LFR game, right?"
"No, no, no..." they told me. "We don't buy books since we all make our characters with the character builder. Why waste our money on books?" Needless to say, I was flabbergasted.
That is surprising. Everybody in my group has bought a few of the books. Myself and the DM have bought I think every crunch book.
"X Power 2" books and their future iterations will have feats (and possibly paragon paths/epic destinies) that provide further support for new material. Martial Power does little-to-nothing for your Warforged Fighter. Nothing for your Changeling Rogue. It'll do nothing for your Minotaur Warlord either once those hit in PHB3. Martial Power 2 will give you extra options specific to these races.
Moving on from races, we see the same thing with new classes. Arcane Power had no added options for the Artificer. Divine Power is going to hit shelves before the PHB3, and yet we know that PHB3 is likely to at least one if not two new classes for the Divine power source. Divine Power will do nothing for these classes.... who will have to await Divine Power 2.
So your idea of diminishing returns actually appears false to me in this light. Older power books offer no support for newer races (with regards to racial feats at any rate) or newer classes of whatever the power source in question may be.
Newer material created to support the newer material. ;)
Make of my ravings what you will however.
~Bizkit
That is surprising. Everybody in my group has bought a few of the books. Myself and the DM have bought I think every crunch book.
I thought it was surprising too since i can't stand having to rely on the computer to look up rules. If you look through this thread and others though, you will see that players like the ones in my story are not uncommon. You see a lot of folks around here who say things like "i may have bought it [book X] otherwise but the CB makes the book obsolete."
I thought it was surprising too since i can't stand having to rely on the computer to look up rules. If you look through this thread and others though, you will see that players like the ones in my story are not uncommon. You see a lot of folks around here who say things like "i may have bought it [book X] otherwise but the CB makes the book obsolete."
I love the CB,but I use it primarily after going through the books and developing my character some. Their is something about thumbing through a book, I love the feel. I do not really like reading at the computer much actually. Anything from DDI that is more than 2 or 3 paragraphs I need to print out first.
I haven't bothered with OG, DNI, or MMII yet. Because . . . well, they're creature books first and foremost, and I can get them in the compendium real easy like. I didn't have DDI when I got the MMI, or I wouldn't have bothered with that either. There's not enough tasty fluff to catch my eye or convince me to open my wallet.
I'm also reluctant to buy Divine Power. I've never played a divine character before and I don't plan to in the near future. It looks nice, and I'll give it a look-see when it lands in the FLGS, but I don't think I'll buy it anytime soon.
AV2, however, is definitely getting purchased. I find the Character Builder's item shop wearisome and actually harder to search through than flipping through a book.
I'm committed through the PHB with Shadow powers. And any MManuals. When they cover sea travel and mass combat, perhaps that DMG. I'll likely get the powers books (1st of each).
I'd say, get the books you can use a moderate amount of info. from and those that you won't get your moneys worth- pass on and borrow them if need be.
It depends on the book how much one is worth owning. A book such as Manual of the Planes is largely just words; 90% of the Manual of the Planes content is not in the Compendium or the Builder. So if you want to read about the stuff of 4th Edition cosmology, you have to buy the book. Whether or not it is worth it is up to you.
I have never had an interest in the campaign guides, and so buying them is not worth it to me. They are about settings I don't use because I build mine myself (nothing ultra-detailed).
I'd say the Adventurer's Vaults are books that don't require purchase, in the sense that there isn't anything in those books that isn't somewhere in the Compendium or Builder. Although if you don't have D&D Insider and no access to those things, landscape changes a bit and every book looks worth buying.
You see a lot of folks around here who say things like "i may have bought it [book X] otherwise but the CB makes the book obsolete."
Of course, that reasoning really only applies if you (the royal you) don't give a flying rats pancreas about the fluff.
Of course, that reasoning really only applies if you (the royal you) don't give a flying rats pancreas about the fluff.
Generally, i don't give a flying rat's ass about the default fluff and i still buy the book instead of slogging through the compendium. ;)
My experience with getting splatbooks is that they are filled with power creep that just tends to bloat and degrade the system. Either you get swamped into indecision with options or loaded down with the "best of the best" that makes the original game's difficulty level easy to overthrow. It's generally been my experience that if you haven't found what you're looking for in the first book or two, its unlikely to find something better that isn't full of power creep down the line.
For 4E, and most other RPGs these days, I stick to the most basic rulebooks. For me on 4E, this means I own the PHB, PHB2, MM, MM2 and DMG. I'm not planning to get the DMG2, and I doubt I get the 3rd in each series.
My experience with getting splatbooks is that they are filled with power creep that just tends to bloat and degrade the system. Either you get swamped into indecision with options or loaded down with the "best of the best" that makes the original game's difficulty level easy to overthrow. It's generally been my experience that if you haven't found what you're looking for in the first book or two, its unlikely to find something better that isn't full of power creep down the line.
You'll find that's not quite the case with 4th ed. It's remained quite balanced.
Hell, the most damaging striker class, yea that's a class from the first PHB, the Ranger.
My experience with getting splatbooks is that they are filled with power creep that just tends to bloat and degrade the system. Either you get swamped into indecision with options or loaded down with the "best of the best" that makes the original game's difficulty level easy to overthrow. It's generally been my experience that if you haven't found what you're looking for in the first book or two, its unlikely to find something better that isn't full of power creep down the line.
In 3e this was certainly the case, and I generally regretted getting the splatbooks. In 4th, it's a bit different. For one, the classes felt pretty "bare bones" to me before the splat books - the amount of options was not adequate. The splatbooks bring them up to adequate and beyond. Some people may think there are too many options, but at least there are *enough* options now.
As for power creep, well, the only significant thing I've noticed is power creep in Arcane Power's Wizard powers. That is, power creep that allows the Wizard to creep up to the other classes' power level.
My experience with getting splatbooks is that they are filled with power creep that just tends to bloat and degrade the system. Either you get swamped into indecision with options or loaded down with the "best of the best" that makes the original game's difficulty level easy to overthrow. It's generally been my experience that if you haven't found what you're looking for in the first book or two, its unlikely to find something better that isn't full of power creep down the line.
I found that last edition i had to rely on using splatbook stuff all the time to supplant much of the overpowered core stuff. Similarly, i'm finding that some of the stuff that is coming out in splatbooks in 4E seems to be better designed than the original PHB, though there generally isnt a huge power disparity.
For 4E, and most other RPGs these days, I stick to the most basic rulebooks. For me on 4E, this means I own the PHB, PHB2, MM, MM2 and DMG. I'm not planning to get the DMG2, and I doubt I get the 3rd in each series.
My experience with getting splatbooks is that they are filled with power creep that just tends to bloat and degrade the system. Either you get swamped into indecision with options or loaded down with the "best of the best" that makes the original game's difficulty level easy to overthrow. It's generally been my experience that if you haven't found what you're looking for in the first book or two, its unlikely to find something better that isn't full of power creep down the line.
As a general rule, you might be right, but this certainly wasn't exactly true of 3.5E; remember CoDzilla?
Do you really need a book to tell you, you are a special build for fighting with a shoe instead of a sword?
The second power books of each powersource are, already off my purchase list based on the fact that frankly, we were promised more adventure stuff... less splat... more dm type books less Player Gifts.
Things like Open Grave, I get into real easy.
Maybe Adventurers Vault II if there's anything actually worth while in it, not covered already somewhere else. But I'm still very much "meh" towards it.
I don't think that I really would own MP2. It just seems so... stupid really.
Do you really need a book to tell you, you are a special build for fighting with a shoe instead of a sword?
The second power books of each powersource are, already off my purchase list based on the fact that frankly, we were promised more adventure stuff... less splat... more dm type books less Player Gifts.
Things like Open Grave, I get into real easy.
Maybe Adventurers Vault II if there's anything actually worth while in it, not covered already somewhere else. But I'm still very much "meh" towards it.
You have inside knowledge of the Lord Nike PP? I have been waiting for them to finally do it. All kidding aside, how do you know for sure it is going to suck? I tend to take the wait and see atitude.
I am with you though more DM stuff would be good. I think though from a marketing standpoint it makes sense. Player outnumber Dm's what 5:1?
I'm not complaining, I'm just asking if a lot of people who bought MP really plan to purchase MP2, and their reasoning/justification for it.
My general plan is to purchase the *Power 1 books, then let the compendium fill me in on the *Power 2-5 books. There doesn't tend to be anything in them that doesn't make it into the compendium anyway. I did purchase PHB2 and MM2, but I'm considering stopping because there doesn't seem to be much, if anything in those that doesn't make the compendium.
So my future purchases will probably be *Power 1's, then any DM books that are mostly prose (DMGs, planar guides and the like). Everything else I'll get as part of my subscription.
I am with you though more DM stuff would be good. I think though from a marketing standpoint it makes sense. Player outnumber Dm's what 5:1?
Most groups I know rotate who DMs, so the ratio could be closer to 1:1, depending on the group.
Most groups I know rotate who DMs, so the ratio could be closer to 1:1, depending on the group.
Well that may be the situation in your group, but not mine. Now that I am thinking about it, it is probably more like 3:1, but still more players than DM's in the group I play in at my FLGS. I am actually suprised to hear every person you know who plays, DM's also, but that is cool. It allows people to spread the fun around!
Well that may be the situation in your group, but not mine. Now that I am thinking about it, it is probably more like 3:1, but still more players than DM's in the group I play in at my FLGS. I am actually suprised to hear every person you know who plays, DM's also, but that is cool. It allows people to spread the fun around!
My group is not a 1:1, it's about a 3:1, and I DM about 90% of the time. Out of the many groups I've had contact with, I do know two groups that were 1:1 ratio (with about 6 players apiece). However, my point is that players are also sometimes DM's, so it's not a straight 5:1 ratio, even were the assumption every group had 5 players and one DM at a time.
For me, the only books really worth owning are the ones that I know I'll use, such as core books and campaign-specific books.
I agree with the people who prefer having a physical book. The character builder is great if you already know what you're going to make, but not so great if you're stuck for a character idea. 'course, I don't have a DDi account, so I can't use the character builder.
I collect D&D hardcovers. I use a few things out of every book I buy but bottm line, I collect them.
*Hasbro Finance Directors rub hands together with $ signs in their eyes laughing all the way to the bank* :D
My group is not a 1:1, it's about a 3:1, and I DM about 90% of the time. Out of the many groups I've had contact with, I do know two groups that were 1:1 ratio (with about 6 players apiece). However, my point is that players are also sometimes DM's, so it's not a straight 5:1 ratio, even were the assumption every group had 5 players and one DM at a time.
I certainly grant you that, I was just throwing a number out there, but you made a valid point.
Personally I see way to much power creep just from what I've seen in Dragon magazine. I mean first we have elves that don't need to sleep, then we got warforged that don't sleep and can't die (I know I'm exaggerating). Then we got familiars so now everyone has two creatures they control instead of one. From there it goes on and on. I mean compare damage in powers and things that are easily comparable such as push, pull, and slide and you'll see what I'm talking about. I'd be interested to see a comparison posted if anyone is willing.
In 3.5E I bought the core books plus the book of swords and the original 3.0 FR campaign guide.
I won't do either ever again. The book of swords was almost worth it. the FRCG was crap.
Then there's the people that are ok with minimal thought put into their game. They play by the specific rules as supported by the rulebooks and supplements at the time. Players can easily get the DDI subscription and use the character builder for all of their needs. Even the DM can use the published adventures from Dungeon and Dragon magazine, making his job rather simple.
Then there's the people in between the two extremes mentioned above. They buy the books they want to use, and share them. In 3.5e each person at my table took turns buying the new book of the month, and we'd all share the book. This works for groups with people that don't have a DDI subscription. It also works well for groups that have more casual players.
And last but certainly not least, there's the collectors. "I'm a Collector" is a fancy way of saying "I spend huge amounts of money on pointless things" and they do it because they like to. Kinda like how people spend money on stamps they never use, baseball cards they put in a box and never look at again, pez dispensers that they never eat the candy from, action figures that they keep in a glass case, comic books they never read, lunchboxes they never put lunch in, vinyl records they never listen to, and coins they never spend. It doesn't have to make sense, they just do it.
As far as DM material is concerned I stopped purchasing those books after Chromatic Dragons as there really is just not enough player related material in them to warrant lugging around. Now, if WOTC started to print campaign and player handbooks together and didn't double the price or release them a month or two later I would most likely purchase them since it would make more sense. When it comes to power source books I also would not mind if they released one large compendium of new powers each year either for those power sources getting an upgrade that year. But that is all just my opinion.
Setting aside the fact that I can't play D&D because WotC dumped the GT, and the fact that I don't have lots of time and money to throw around.
Personally I see way to much power creep just from what I've seen in Dragon magazine. I mean first we have elves that don't need to sleep, then we got warforged that don't sleep and can't die (I know I'm exaggerating). Then we got familiars so now everyone has two creatures they control instead of one. From there it goes on and on. I mean compare damage in powers and things that are easily comparable such as push, pull, and slide and you'll see what I'm talking about. I'd be interested to see a comparison posted if anyone is willing.
In 3.5E I bought the core books plus the book of swords and the original 3.0 FR campaign guide.
I won't do either ever again. The book of swords was almost worth it. the FRCG was crap.
Dude, you're going to have to flat out point to the power creep because I've not seen it.
Also, if you are referring specifically to Wizards keep in mind that they got buffed up some because they were deemed to be too weak as I recall.
Personally I see way to much power creep just from what I've seen in Dragon magazine. I mean first we have elves that don't need to sleep, then we got warforged that don't sleep and can't die (I know I'm exaggerating). Then we got familiars so now everyone has two creatures they control instead of one. From there it goes on and on.
Er...what? First, your examples have nothing to do with power creep and neither of those things are even from Dragon! Warforged that take 10 on death saves are in the MM. Familiars were introduced in Arcane Power (though rangers got the ability to "control 2 creatures" in Martial Power).
Stuff like Rain of Blows, the Battlerager, the orb Wizard, Bloodclaw, ect....its all from the rulebooks. Its the books that are the primary source of unbalanced stuff so far, not Dragon.
Same argument just replace dragon with non-core books.
I'm sorry, I don't currently have those books or a subscription to DDI so I am probably wrong on the source of the material, but the expanded books do have power creep.
Same argument just replace dragon with non-core books.
If you don't even own the rulesbooks then how do you know whether they are power creep or not? Did you consider that these might be perfectly balanced options that are just expanding the player's choices?
I'm sorry, I don't currently have those books or a subscription to DDI so I am probably wrong on the source of the material, but the expanded books do have power creep.
Same argument just replace dragon with non-core books.
If you are going to make a statement like there is power creep in the books then you are going to have to back that up. I own every single one of the crunch books short of Divine Power (will likely get that today) and I've not seen this power creep you speak of. Additionally I have a DDi subscription and haven't seen power creep in the Dragon articles either.
I'm sorry, I don't currently have those books or a subscription to DDI so I am probably wrong on the source of the material, but the expanded books do have power creep.
Same argument just replace dragon with non-core books.
I guess not having the books explains why you're using examples of stuff that isn't power creep as power creep then. ;)
I guess not having the books explains why you're using examples of stuff that isn't power creep as power creep then. ;)
I used to have access to DDI and I read those parts, and if you put one of those up against a PHB, MM, DMG core book character they will win hands down.
Decrying power creep when you don't own any of the books, read a couple things from Dragon, and possibly haven't played the fourth edition doesn't give your argument much weight.
I used to have access to DDI and I read those parts, and if you put one of those up against a PHB, MM, DMG core book character they will win hands down.
Like what? Warforged, rain of blows, orb wizard, ect....its all in the first 3 books. There has been some overpowered stuff in books since then but in no greater proportions than in the original 3, and certainly there is hardly anything broken in Dragon compared to any of the books.
Like what? Warforged, rain of blows, orb wizard, ect....its all in the first 3 books. There has been some overpowered stuff in books since then but in no greater proportions than in the original 3, and certainly there is hardly anything broken in Dragon compared to any of the books.
I didn't say it was worse than 3.5E, I also didn't say it was even as bad as 3.5E. To me any amount of imbalance makes the original classes not worth playing, and you get the annoying syndrome "can I make a new character?" every time a new supplement comes out that is unbalanced.
I only heard our battlerager fighter ask if he can make a new character. Since his character is neutered now.
If anyone thinks a fighter that gets temp hp any time they hit with a melee power is neutered, they obviously are under the impression that having no ********* means you're awesome.
I didn't say it was worse than 3.5E, I also didn't say it was even as bad as 3.5E. To me any amount of imbalance makes the original classes not worth playing, and you get the annoying syndrome "can I make a new character?" every time a new supplement comes out that is unbalanced.
? What does 3.5 have to do with anything? I never mentioned 3.5.The problem with basing your criteria on "can i make a new character" players is that this phenomenon doesn't necessarily say anything about the balance of anything. People often want to make new stuff just because its new, regardless of power level. The ranger does far more damage, yet ive seen people retire them to make avengers just because it is new. Elves and dwarves are strong PHB races and ive seen people retire them to take a race that isn't nearly as good. People get excited about shiny new toys, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the new toys are always better.
And I feel confident making that assertion.
Examples or it doesn't exist.
Adventurer's Vault ring any bells? It introduced dozens of options to make you hit harder (with weapons, sorry implement users!) and none of these options had a cost commensurate with their increased effect over previously-available options. In fact, most of them cost less and were available at a lower level than the options they made obsolete.
It is inarguably power creep. Before Adventurer's Vault, people who used weapons did more damage than people who used implements. After Adventurer's Vault, people who used weapons did A LOT more damage than people who used implements. It was an addition to top-end performance, so the usual excuse that they're just bringing sub-par options up to speed, which is faulty because it ignores all but one unpleasant factor of power creep, doesn't apply.
If you want to deal large amounts of damage with a weapon and don't use Adventurer's Vault, you're going to be pretty damn mediocre in comparison to anyone who uses Adventurer's Vault. This is the classic test of power creep.
Lastly, the elements introduced in Adventurer's Vault have led to a campaign of errata directed at multi-attack powers because, with the introduction of Adventurer's Vault, they're entirely too strong. Clear evidence of the existence and magnitude of the increase in power.
In summary: Adventurer's Vault improved upon existing top-end options to such a degree that a character without access to Adventurer's Vault is markedly inferior to a character with access and previously acceptable powers had to be adjusted downwards because of this dramatic increase in power. It is power creep by every definition I've ever seen and it hits every single reason why people object to power creep in the first place.
...rain of blows...
I don't see how you can expect anyone to take you seriously when you say that Rain of Blows, as presented in the PHB and used only with options found in the first three books, is overpowered. It was just fine until Adventurer's Vault mangled the balance struck by the weapon limitations and added several stacking damage bonuses that made multi-hit powers inarguably superior to all others. Martial Power broke it further by creating a Fighter build dependant upon Dexterity and Light Blades, thus utterly destroying any merit the limitations had in the first place.
Adventurer's Vault and Martial Power broke Rain of Blows. Citing it as an example of a broken mechanic in the core rules is disingenuous (or ignorant, take your pick). It is also rather unintelligent, since you could make a better case for Blade Cascade.
If anyone thinks a fighter that gets temp hp any time they hit with a melee power is neutered, they obviously are under the impression that having no ********* means you're awesome.
Yeah, anyone who says Battleragers are "neutered" does not deserve to be taken seriously.
And I feel confident making that assertion.
I guess you lack the critical thinking behind the word choice of neutered.
Look at what he was and now what he is. Pretty much neutered.
The only reason you play a battlerager is to do 2 extra damage now and gain temp hps when you miss? Granted if you wear the chain (easy to hit) and weapon? You can get the temp hit points just being trained in Endurance!
So a fighter with +1 to hit and endurance the only thing that is different is the 2 extra damage he is doing? The Non Battlerager will have a better AC defense than the Battlerager. Will be able to hit with more ease than the battlerager. All he has to do is sacrifice 2 more damage? Yes seem pretty neutered to me.
Ghoststepper he gets temp hit points even on a miss. That is another plus if you want to call it that.
*Snip*
Our Ranger was the most strongest PC at lvl 1.
He is still the most strongest PC at (soon to be) lvl 7.
He is found in the PHB.
I guess you lack the critical thinking behind the word choice of neutered.
Look at what he was and now what he is. Pretty much neutered.
The only reason you play a battlerager is to do 2 extra damage now and gain temp hps when you miss? Granted if you wear the chain (easy to hit) and weapon? You can get the temp hit points just being trained in Endurance!
So a fighter with +1 to hit and endurance the only thing that is different is the 2 extra damage he is doing? The Non Battlerager will have a better AC defense than the Battlerager. Will be able to hit with more ease than the battlerager. All he has to do is sacrifice 2 more damage? Yes seem pretty neutered to me.
I guess you lack, uh, the ability to read in the first place.
Whenever you hit an enemy with a melee or a close
attack, you gain temporary hit points equal to your
Constitution modifier, plus any temporary hit points
normally granted by the power.
Which means a Battlerager who hits with an Invigorating power gets twice the amount of temp HPs a non-Battlerager would get. So the Battlerager still gets a sizable advantage there. If neither build uses Invigorating powers (which I can't blame, most of them suck until you get to Epic Tier and can create your own), Battlerager comes out ahead temp HPs-wise since he's the only one who gets temp HPs at all from non-Invigorating powers.
I don't see how you can expect anyone to take you seriously when you say that Rain of Blows, as presented in the PHB and used only with options found in the first three books, is overpowered.
You must be joking. Multiattacking was problematic before the splats ever came out and Rain of Blows was the most damaging heroic tier power in the game at that point. There were multiple builds that used it on the CO boards and tons of people mutliclassed fighter just to get it.
Of course you can also play some of the splat book material in a vacuum and it works fine before you add in the core Rain of Blows powers. You can't lay the blame solely on the newer stuff when PHB material breaks something that is perfectly fine, in and of itself, that happened to be released later.
Adventurer's Vault and Martial Power broke Rain of Blows. Citing it as an example of a broken mechanic in the core rules is disingenuous (or ignorant, take your pick). It is also rather unintelligent, since you could make a better case for Blade Cascade.
You know what "etc" stands for, right?
-The core three were obvious buys, and I use them all the time.
-Martial Power was awesome as it came out, as it was the first splatbook and really felt like an enormous increase in player options. It also made race matter more, even unconventional races: it directly inspired the creation of my tiefling fighter.
-Player's Handbook 2 was just a great buy, and it's as indispensible as the PHB1 at my table. Both books have the sort of rules that you don't want to have to pull up the laptop for.
-Manual of the Planes really fleshed out the 4E "world," which I've taken an interest in. Still, this was probably the least satisfying of my purchases (and it's mysteriously gone missing).
-Draconomicon 1 was a terrific "dungeon-and-monsters" type book. I love the three "new" dragons, as I was already a big fan of 3E fang and deep dragons.
-Arcane Power went a long way to improving FIVE of my favorite classes. My favorite characters are usually fighters, wizards, or similar, so those "power" books were attractive to me. It also helped beef up implement-users.
-Monster Manual 2 was another must-buy. Not only did it re-introduce some great classic monsters, but it offered an updated perspective on monster design that was welcome at the table. I don't feel the need to respec MM1 monsters to be more like MM2 monsters, but I'm glad I have both manuals at my fingertips.
-Both Eberron books were bought as much for the writing as for the mechanics. The EPG is also one of the better player supplements to date in terms of quality and balance IMO.
As for the books I've passed up:
-Passed on Forgotten Realms despite loving the swordmage.
-Passed on AV. I love some of the new mundane weapons and many of the magic items, however the book did really shift the balance of the game and the double weapons were very poorly designed. Even the addition of alchemical items didn't feel well-thought out. Plus, it's an expensive one.
-Passed on Divine Power yesterday, and probably will pass on Primal Power as well. From early reports DP doesn't sound mind-blowingly good, and I'm not currently playing a divine character nor do I crave more options for them. Similarly, I feel like if I had the urge/opportunity to play a primal character I have enough in the PHB2 to play with for now.
I do wish I had access to all of the "Power" rules as they are added to the game, but I am considering investing in a DDI subscription if I begin playing regularly after I move in the near future. As has been said, the "Power" book are mostly rules, and if I can get access to rules that I don't constantly need, for cheaper, than I will go with that. I do prefer having books at my table, but it's silly for me to buy Divine Power (a book of pure rules) when I've got a list of characters as long as my arm inspired by other books I've yet to play.
In addition, I often/usually find myself DMing instead of playing, and one really dosn't need to own the Power books when DMing. Just look at the material that your players are using.
The problem with basing your criteria on "can i make a new character" players is that this phenomenon doesn't necessarily say anything about the balance of anything. People often want to make new stuff just because its new, regardless of power level. The ranger does far more damage, yet ive seen people retire them to make avengers just because it is new. Elves and dwarves are strong PHB races and ive seen people retire them to take a race that isn't nearly as good. People get excited about shiny new toys, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the new toys are always better.
Sorry I mistook the "3" in your post to mean 3.0, going back I see you meant the 3 core books.
Adventurer's Vault ring any bells? It introduced dozens of options to make you hit harder (with weapons, sorry implement users!) and none of these options had a cost commensurate with their increased effect over previously-available options. In fact, most of them cost less and were available at a lower level than the options they made obsolete.
It is inarguably power creep. Before Adventurer's Vault, people who used weapons did more damage than people who used implements. After Adventurer's Vault, people who used weapons did A LOT more damage than people who used implements. It was an addition to top-end performance, so the usual excuse that they're just bringing sub-par options up to speed, which is faulty because it ignores all but one unpleasant factor of power creep, doesn't apply.
If you want to deal large amounts of damage with a weapon and don't use Adventurer's Vault, you're going to be pretty damn mediocre in comparison to anyone who uses Adventurer's Vault. This is the classic test of power creep.
Lastly, the elements introduced in Adventurer's Vault have led to a campaign of errata directed at multi-attack powers because, with the introduction of Adventurer's Vault, they're entirely too strong. Clear evidence of the existence and magnitude of the increase in power.
In summary: Adventurer's Vault improved upon existing top-end options to such a degree that a character without access to Adventurer's Vault is markedly inferior to a character with access and previously acceptable powers had to be adjusted downwards because of this dramatic increase in power. It is power creep by every definition I've ever seen and it hits every single reason why people object to power creep in the first place.
I don't see how you can expect anyone to take you seriously when you say that Rain of Blows, as presented in the PHB and used only with options found in the first three books, is overpowered. It was just fine until Adventurer's Vault mangled the balance struck by the weapon limitations and added several stacking damage bonuses that made multi-hit powers inarguably superior to all others. Martial Power broke it further by creating a Fighter build dependant upon Dexterity and Light Blades, thus utterly destroying any merit the limitations had in the first place.
Adventurer's Vault and Martial Power broke Rain of Blows. Citing it as an example of a broken mechanic in the core rules is disingenuous (or ignorant, take your pick). It is also rather unintelligent, since you could make a better case for Blade Cascade.
I agree completely. Also any class that uses implements to deal damage usually have the power tell them to deal Xd6 or xD8, or in the case of a striker Xd10 damage. Which means at best they are dealing less damage than the great axe wielding fighter.
I'd like to see a list of implements that have damage values attached, and do the 1[w] type of damage. Examples:
Willow Wand 1d6
Gold Crystal Wand 1d8
Platinum Diamond Wand 1d12
Seer Orb 1d6
Mage Orb 1d8
Dragon Orb 1d10
Diamond Orb 1d12
Then do proficiencies just like the martial classes.
Wizards can use simple implements
Warlocks can use military implements
Of course this will never happen.
Our Ranger was the most strongest PC at lvl 1.
He is still the most strongest PC at (soon to be) lvl 7.
He is found in the PHB.
Can you elaborate? I mean provide some stats like race and feats, and some magic items they use? Which powers do they have?
Other than AV, though, the latest books haven't seemed to add a whole lot of power creep. The ranger and the fighter are still two of the most effective classes, the fighter being quite good even without martial power. The new classes actually seem slightly less powerful than the top-tier classes from PHB 1, or at least they do to me.
As far as the power creep goes, I will admit that AV bumped up the power level, but I also tend to see it as more like core rulebook IV, so I see the power creep as taking the game where it was intended to be, not pushing it over the original.
Other than AV, though, the latest books haven't seemed to add a whole lot of power creep. The ranger and the fighter are still two of the most effective classes, the fighter being quite good even without martial power. The new classes actually seem slightly less powerful than the top-tier classes from PHB 1, or at least they do to me.
I don't see it as core rulebook IV, that would be PHB2 or MM2 or DMG2. Adventurers vault was meant to add more options until the [insert core book]2 came out.
It also wasn't too well thought up there are many many examples of not just powers, but items that are way overpowered.
Indeed, you should probably buy Two copies of each book, so you have a backup in case the first one gets damaged.
WotC - please send my kick back in the form of a check.
The character builder and compendium enable me to see all the relevant text for new material.
The only drawbacks to not purchasing the books is
1) I do not get the material as soon as everybody else.
2) It is more difficult to parse which material is new and meant for which build without these books.
3) I lose out on some fluff.
4) Less support for my FLGS.
Minor complaints, really. I bought Divine Power because I absolutely had to have it ASAP; partially because I really wanted to improve my paladin ASAP and partially because I really wanted a hardbound copy of one of the books about which I was most excited. I will probably do the same for Dungeon Master's Guide II, but for different reasons: mostly because it's material is less likely to be covered in full convenience in the compendium.
More to the point of the question, would I buy a second splat book of the same power source if there was no other way to get that material? Yes. Even though I get diminishing returns, I am liable to find plenty of new material that I do find useful. A single new power might not justify a new book, but a new power at every level, a couple new feats at every tier, a new build, new paragon path, epic destiny, and material for other classes I might pursue? Certainly interesting. If nothing else, it's material that is interesting to discuss. All of this is regardless of the fact that I do not expect to play every build, or even every class.
I have been purchasing most of the books up until now, but will probably stop buying most of them.
The character builder and compendium enable me to see all the relevant text for new material.
The only drawbacks to not purchasing the books is
1) I do not get the material as soon as everybody else.
2) It is more difficult to parse which material is new and meant for which build without these books.
3) I lose out on some fluff.
4) Less support for my FLGS.
Minor complaints, really. I bought Divine Power because I absolutely had to have it ASAP; partially because I really wanted to improve my paladin ASAP and partially because I really wanted a hardbound copy of one of the books about which I was most excited. I will probably do the same for Dungeon Master's Guide II, but for different reasons: mostly because it's material is less likely to be covered in full convenience in the compendium.
More to the point of the question, would I buy a second splat book of the same power source if there was no other way to get that material? Yes. Even though I get diminishing returns, I am liable to find plenty of new material that I do find useful. A single new power might not justify a new book, but a new power at every level, a couple new feats at every tier, a new build, new paragon path, epic destiny, and material for other classes I might pursue? Certainly interesting. If nothing else, it's material that is interesting to discuss. All of this is regardless of the fact that I do not expect to play every build, or even every class.
Well if I had a thousand dollars in disposable income every month I'd buy every book out there as well as keeping up on my DDI subscription, but as it is I have to scrape and save to buy these $29.99 books (I'm sure they are slightly cheaper at some places) and I can't really use them because of the whole DDI fiasco. So to me its just not worth it. Maybe if I had a group to play in and there was enough interest, but not really.
So I'm just withholding my money until I see what I like.
Well if I had a thousand dollars in disposable income every month I'd buy every book out there as well as keeping up on my DDI subscription, but as it is I have to scrape and save to buy these $29.99 books (I'm sure they are slightly cheaper at some places) and I can't really use them because of the whole DDI fiasco.
The 29.99 books are 19 and change on Amazon.com, and 18 and change on Buy.com.
And what DDI Fiasco?
The 29.99 books are 19 and change on Amazon.com, and 18 and change on Buy.com.
And what DDI Fiasco?
Do we really need to hash it out in another forum thread? the fiasco with the GT and CV.
Do we really need to hash it out in another forum thread? the fiasco with the GT and CV.
So you can't use the core books because there is no GT or CV? Not being able to play without the CV makes no sense to me, but I can kind of understand you're point with the GT. I take it you can't find anyone to play with? However, I don't understand why this is WotC's fault? For one, there are forums to play by post and organize games and other programs (like OpenRPG) that can be used to play online if no other players live around you.
No one should need DDI or the GT to play D&D and, in fact, you really don't. This is the one rant about DDI that I've never understood. That somehow the lack of the extra utilities makes the game you purchased worthless. I think one of the original analogies used to explain DDI was like a DVD special features disc. Yeah, it will cost a bit extra than just the movie (which plays just fine on it's own), but it will make the experience that much richer. The point is that you don't need the extra features disc at all. Maybe I'm missing something, though.
So you can't use the core books because there is no GT or CV? Not being able to play without the CV makes no sense to me, but I can kind of understand you're point with the GT. I take it you can't find anyone to play with? However, I don't understand why this is WotC's fault? For one, there are forums to play by post and organize games and other programs (like OpenRPG) that can be used to play online if no other players live around you.
No one should need DDI or the GT to play D&D and, in fact, you really don't. This is the one rant about DDI that I've never understood. That somehow the lack of the extra utilities makes the game you purchased worthless. I think one of the original analogies used to explain DDI was like a DVD special features disc. Yeah, it will cost a bit extra than just the movie (which plays just fine on it's own), but it will make the experience that much richer. The point is that you don't need the extra features disc at all. Maybe I'm missing something, though.
I seriously don't want to rehash this yet again, because I was asked by WotC_Trevor not to in another thread. Check my sig for a relevant thread that describes in detail everything that you are talking about and more. Suffice it to say that I don't have time to play online, and I can't find a group locally. So I can't really play. Leave it at that.
As far as the powers books, PHs, and MMs; I'll buy anything I can get my hands on.
Honestly I mostly get 4e cra.. I mean stuff, to reverse engineer the ideas I like to 3.5... Oh and for the artwork. (even though a good amount of it is recycled 3e artwork.)
coughcheapcoughlazycough.;)I'm a little surprised at how many people said "I have the character compendium, why would I buy the books?", but it makes sense to some degree - its not all that expensive and more than two X power books come out per year, so you're more than getting your money's worth with that subscription.
3) I love 4e and want to continue supporting the company that has brought me such a wonderful game.
I like WotC, but I don't purchase everything because I only get stuff I really want, rather than supporting people for the sake of doing so. I figure if I purchase stuff I don't want, they'll produce more of it, so by neglecting to do so they'll focus more (if ever so slightly) on what I do enjoy.
Reason #3 (BIGGEST REASON) – You want to expand your options.
My point was that it really doesn't, at least not in a very meaningful fashion. Sure, it seems like it would, but on some level, it doesn't because how many builds of a given class are you realistically going to play? Currently you're using about 10% of the class's content; with the next splatbook, you're looking at more like 7%. While 10% is massively less than 25%, the difference between 10% and 7% just isn't that large - on some level, while you have "more options", they aren't particularly meaningful - you only NEED so many options, because you'll only use so many.
"X Power 2" books and their future iterations will have feats (and possibly paragon paths/epic destinies) that provide further support for new material. Martial Power does little-to-nothing for your Warforged Fighter. Nothing for your Changeling Rogue. It'll do nothing for your Minotaur Warlord either once those hit in PHB3. Martial Power 2 will give you extra options specific to these races.
Two points:
Firstly, not really. It doesn't "do nothing" - it gives you access to a TON of powers, feats, ect. It doesn't give you race specific paragon paths, epic destinies, and feats, but that's only a very small percentage of what there is for a character. So you're fooling yourself if you think it adds "next to nothing".
Secondly, you are purchasing an entire book because a new race, introduced later on, is not given that very small number of things in that PHB - probably no more than six feats, a paragon path, and an epic destiny. That's a very small amount to be missing, and it doesn't seem like it would be a good value to purchase something for what amounts to three pages of material, which is precisely what you're "missing".
Moving on from races, we see the same thing with new classes. Arcane Power had no added options for the Artificer. Divine Power is going to hit shelves before the PHB3, and yet we know that PHB3 is likely to at least one if not two new classes for the Divine power source. Divine Power will do nothing for these classes.... who will have to await Divine Power 2.
So rather than getting material for four classes, you're getting it for two?
That is the definition of diminishing returns.
Moreover, there's really no reason why Arcane Power couldn't have had options for all six arcane classes, seeing as the last one came out scant months afterwards. Yes, it'd be like 25 more pages; yes it would cost more money. But on the other hand, buying Arcane Power 2 JUST so you can get Artificer options doesn't smell like a very good deal to me at all. "But you get a lot of other garbage for the other classes!" At which point you say "Then why do you have Arcane Power at all?"
This is really my issue here. What we're seeing is not really what I expected at first, and it feels to me like we're getting less value this way. Rather than having one "X Power" book and one PHB, instead you need a pile of those books to construct your character. The way they're spreading out the classes, either you have the choice of purchasing the "X Power" book now, and then having to purchase "X Power 2" a year later to get the rest of the classes, or you can just skip "X Power" and go to "X Power 2" and get all the classes. The latter seems more efficient, and what are you losing, exactly?
This is what bothers me. If they had gone with what I was expecting (a 4/2/2 2/2/4 4/2/2 2/2/4 release schedule, with +1 class per year due to the campaign guide class) you'd be able to collect all eight X Power books in four years, have no overlap, have all the classes in each one, and then maybe for the next cycle have it start over again and still feel like you're getting your money's worth with the next set of X Power books (maybe X Power 2 for the new sets of classes). Instead, we're seeing Martial Power 2 coming out which adds... what, exactly? And for the rest, you're looking at 1-2 new classes which were skipped by the previous book, but for no good reason.
It really seems to be that if your argument is "Well, they're intentionally leaving out two classes, so you NEED that new book" then my response is "Why buy the first one in the first place if the new one actually includes all that you need?"
So it really doesn't change my point, just shifts it - in the case of MP2, I'm not sure why you'd want it (as it adds so little), and with the other X2 books, you're looking at the first X Power books being incomplete and superfluous.
A similar point exists with Adventurer's Vault 2 - the original one adds so many items I, as a DM, doubt I will ever even hand out the majority of them. Why do I need even more items, when I already have so many I don't think I'm going to repeat myself for many years? As a player, I get only a fifth the use out of it as I do as a DM, so it seems like even less of a value to me.
Of course, that reasoning really only applies if you (the royal you) don't give a flying rats pancreas about the fluff.
Honestly, there isn't much fluff to a lot of them.
You'll find that's not quite the case with 4th ed. It's remained quite balanced.
Well, no, its just that the splatbooks aren't THAT much worse than the core books. There are some real issues which remain to be resolved.
As for power creep, well, the only significant thing I've noticed is power creep in Arcane Power's Wizard powers. That is, power creep that allows the Wizard to creep up to the other classes' power level.
The wizard was the second strongest (arbuably the strongest) class in the PHB. So no, not really.
Also, if you are referring specifically to Wizards keep in mind that they got buffed up some because they were deemed to be too weak as I recall.
They weren't "too weak". Some people (unskilled players, as well as 3.x munchkins) complained, but Wizards weren't underpowered. Their biggest issue was that in the PHB, they had ONE controller at-will power, and the rest were not very controlleresque (or were only incredibly weak control). However, the Dragon article added a second at-will controller power, and Arcane Power added a third controller option, but honestly Cloud of Daggers is probably a better choice. Wizards have incredible encounter and daily powers; the big issue is that people are just not very good at playing wizards because they don't understand how. Once you figure out what a controller does, the wizard is awesome.
If you are going to make a statement like there is power creep in the books then you are going to have to back that up. I own every single one of the crunch books short of Divine Power (will likely get that today) and I've not seen this power creep you speak of. Additionally I have a DDi subscription and haven't seen power creep in the Dragon articles either.
We who understand the game have. Thing is, a lot of it is pretty stupid, and involves individually broken things. For instance, feats which allow you to make an extra attack roll when you score a critical hit, as well as broken powers which allow insane DPR or do other things which are clearly out of line. The Adventurer's Vault showed how broken static saving throw penalties were and allowed a lot more access to that particular brand of insanity, and various other magic items in there also allowed for some pretty broken stuff. Broken individual powers have showed up time and again, though some of them were dependent on your understanding of, say, damage rolls and it was unclear whether they were broken, the new ones (like Quicksilver Stance, among others) were horrendously so.
So really, its less "everything is stronger" and more "There are a few things which are insanely out of line with what is acceptable". And as more books come out, more and more of this accumulates.
It is only arguably power creep as a lot of it is just individual broken stuff, which appears in the PHB as well - the Orb of Imposition, for example, is hopelessly broken, as were a few other things (Blade Cascade, Demigod, level 29 fighter and ranger stances), and others were just really overpowered (Rain of Blows).