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| #1Tony_VargasJan 24, 2011 20:28:46 | This idea occurred to me. You could use a card mechanic to govern the availability of powers: instead of the current at-will/Encounter/Daily distinction, you'd have a common/uncommon/rare distinction. It could be done with a CCG or complete-deck-by-power-source set. Each Power Source could have variations on the mechanic to futher 'differentiate' them. Basic mechanic: The player builds a deck consisting of 'Attack Power,' 'Utility Power,' and 'Complication' cards. The number and distribution of cards in the deck is based on level. 'Complications' are random events that may, situationally, be good or slightly disadvantageous. At the start of his turn, the player draws a card. If it is an attack or utility power, he can hold it or use it. If he holds or doesn't draw an attack power, he can still use a basic attack (so, yes, /every/ class needs a 'basic' attack). If he draws a complication card, it's resolved that round. If you draw a card while holding a card, you can can discard the held card to use or hold a newly-drawn attack or utility, or discard the newly-drawn attack or utility and use or continue to hold the held card. If you draw a complication while holding an attack or utility, the complication is still resolved that round, whether you use or continue to hold the other card. Once used, cards are treated differently based on how common they are: A common card goes right back into the deck. An 'uncommon' goes back into the deck at the end of the encounter. 'Rares' go back into your deck at the start of a session or 'adventuring day,' depending on the DM's preference. Special Rules by source: Martial - Martial exploits turn upon fleeting conditions and opportunities in the chaos of battle. If a card is held, it /must/ be used or discarded on the next round. However, if a card is discarded un-used, it is immediately returned to the player's deck, even if it is uncommon or rare. Divine - Divine prayers may or may not be answered, and miracles are at the whim of the Gods. Divine decks do not contain rare power or utility cards. Instead, the player chooses his rare cards and places them, face down, in front of him. At the start of any round, the DM can tell the player to flip a rare card of his (the DM's) choice, instead of drawing. Alternately, the player can choose to discard a random face-down rare card to void the effect of a complication he has just drawn ('divine intervention'). Arcane - Arcane spells are a matter of impossing will through knowledge. At the beginning of the day, the arcanist chooses one of each category of non-complication card: one uncommon, common & rare, attack and utility, for a total of six cards. All six of these cards are available to him to use at any time. When he expends a card, it goes back into his deck per the normal rules. After he expends a card, he can choose to replace it when he draws a new card of the same type & rarity. The arcanist cannot use a power or utility card when he draws it, unless he has a 'slot' already open. He does not have the option of discarding a 'prepared' spell durring an encounter. At the start of a new encounter, the arcanist can choose new common or uncommon cards to replace corresponding prepared spells he has expended or no longer wishes to have prepared. Primal - Primal invocations operate as much on instinct as intent. When a primal character draws a an attack or utility card, he must use or discard it that round. If he chooses to discard it, it goes back into his deck immediately, but he takes a -2 to his next attack roll. If he chooses to use it, he gains temporary hps equal to the higher of his CON or WIS bonus. Psionic - Psionics shape pure mental energy into effects, that energy is not dependable, but when availabe, can be used for anything he knows how to do. Psionics have 'power' cards that are common, uncommon, or rare, but otherwise undifferentiated. Psionic Disciplines are learned by the psionic, much like basic attacks. Each Discipline is useable as an attack or utility, with the amount of power availble determining what the psionic can attempt at any given moment - each Discipline also has a 'basic attack,' that requires no power card to use. When he draws a power card, he can use it to power a discipline as an attack or utility corresponding to that of the card. Power cards are otherwise treated exactly like attack and utility cards. |
| #2lord_rockJan 24, 2011 20:49:26 | Keep CCG out of dnd please. If I want to play a card game I'll play a card game. Outside of critical hit/fumble decks or playing 3 dragon ante in character (and the deck of many things) keep CCG out of dnd. |
| #3Damon_TorJan 24, 2011 21:39:24 | I like alot of the concepts here: and frankly, I wouldn't be opposed to a well-made D&D game that uses cards. The problem lies in the "collectability" aspect. The major problem with your system is that you would either have an abysmally low chance of getting any cards useful to your character, or you would need to sell booster packs divided in some way to narrow it dow. If you sell booster packs based on power source or combat role, you'd have about a 1/4-6 chance of each card being relevant to you, but that would leave characters with less used power sources with fewer people to trade their useless cards to, and to get useful cards from: psionic characters would waste alot more money on boosters than martial characters. If you sell booster packs based on class, you've got too many cards useful to you: a fighter could use around 80% of the cards he gets, with only a few that require things like shields or two weapons, or a two-hander to maybe toss, depending on build. By contrast, a warlock or paladin would only be able to use 50% of his cards, the others being near auto-miss. Still better than packs with random classes in it, but there's an imbalance there. The game would be rebalanced for this of course: no V classes, no in-class build differentiation in terms of equipment used, but then your problem becomes two-fold. One, you've dumbed down your game to make it work as a CCG, and two, your players have reason to trade since they can use most of their power, and little opportunity to trade, since the other people that play the game most likely have no cards for their class. So: my solution is as you describe, but the cards are not collectible, but rather a set of cards you get with the box. The Player's Handbook would come with a big stack of cards for each class, and you would build your deck from those cards. The Martial Power supplement would come with cards for the new powers in that book, but not randomized in any way. |
| #4Tony_VargasJan 25, 2011 0:29:08 | I like alot of the concepts here: and frankly, I wouldn't be opposed to a well-made D&D game that uses cards. The problem lies in the "collectability" aspect. Complete sets by class or source would make the most sense, of course. Indeed, class power cards already exist, though I've never seen anyone use them, and only ever seen one player cut up the CB 'card' sheets and actually use them as cards. Some card sleeves and creativity and you could probably come up with an implement a system like this.
I thought psionics were wildly popular and successful? So: my solution is as you describe, but the cards are not collectible, but rather a set of cards you get with the box. The Player's Handbook would come with a big stack of cards for each class, and you would build your deck from those cards. The Martial Power supplement would come with cards for the new powers in that book, but not randomized in any way. That'd be my preference, too. But, I couldn't help thinking about the CCG model, since WotC seems pretty hot to go that way... ...I'm afraid that, from a game-design PoV, it might well be doable... |
| #5Damon_TorJan 25, 2011 1:07:17 | I like alot of the concepts here: and frankly, I wouldn't be opposed to a well-made D&D game that uses cards. The problem lies in the "collectability" aspect. Sure: it could be done now with this ruleset... minus the collectability aspect. The rules you suggest are fine, and look solid (I have some quibbles with the source-based mechanics, but the overall concept would work) but the collectability is what would drive WotC to do this sort of thing.
I don't think they're unpopular. It's just that they're a niche: I think most people like playing with classes with a classical feel most of the time. I don't mind psionics, mechanically or thematically, but my characters are almost always martial or arcane: I don't think I'm too terribly unusual in that respect. There's a very real fear that martial character cards would be easy to trade for and with, and so more people would play martial which would reinforce the ubiquity problem, and the cycle would feed itself. So: my solution is as you describe, but the cards are not collectible, but rather a set of cards you get with the box. The Player's Handbook would come with a big stack of cards for each class, and you would build your deck from those cards. The Martial Power supplement would come with cards for the new powers in that book, but not randomized in any way. It's doable, yes, but to make it would D&D would have to be homogenized much more than it is today to get over the fact that so many cards would be unusable (or so many booster packs would be unsellable, take your pick). Look at Magic: you've only got 5 basic types of cards, and even those can be mixed together into dual and triple color decks and. In D&D you've got dozens of classes and highly limited multiclassing rules. Okay, try this on for size: Cards sold in packs containing cards of many roles. However, the rules are very different, to allow for more of the cards to be used by characters. You don't have a class, you have a Role. Okay, you're a defender, so you have the defender's aura. Then, each level you chose a power source to level up in: level 1, you chose martial, so you take level 1 martial defender powers. You've got the one class feature and defendery powers. In magic the gathering terms, you have "1 martial mana" to spend on martial defender cards At level 2, you take another level of martial: you can now use level 2 martial defender cards, or "2 martial mana" At level 3, you change it up, because you want to use some of these primal cards you've got. You take 1 primal level, and so you have "2 martial mana and 1 primal mana" Some cards, like in MTG, would be "Sourceless" requiring a certain number of levels but no particular power source (skill powers, for example)... though more often powers would require "1 martial level, 2 other" or something. Some powers would be "1 martial, 1 primal, 3 other" but those would be rarer. You'd still have feats and so forth, and you could spend said feats on "Multiclassing" which means you get to use the powers of another role, and get a limited version of that role's feature. Ugg, now you're making me think about this. Yes it could work. It might even be fun. What you'd come up with would not be D&D however. |
| #6ceiling90Jan 25, 2011 1:53:40 | You know what, that could be heaps of fun. It could even be vaguely DnD. It would be a very complicated card game. But... how would you run a "game"? Since Magic is essentially a pvp game; you don't really fight something like a DM, you fight each other... Would the DM have massive amount of cards and special turn order? I mean if you're fighting essentially 5 on 1, the DM has to have massive leeway for it work. You know, someone should work on this, it could be interestingly fun to play. |
| #7Tony_VargasJan 25, 2011 3:14:52 | I was picturing it as still using dice as the resolution mechanic, just using the cards to determine the round-by-round availability of powers. So, there is an added element of randomness - and managing randomness - in choosing your actions each round. As oppossed to managing finite resources completely under your control. |
| #8Damon_TorJan 25, 2011 3:20:31 | You know what, that could be heaps of fun. It could even be vaguely DnD. It would be a very complicated card game. But... how would you run a "game"? Since Magic is essentially a pvp game; you don't really fight something like a DM, you fight each other... Would the DM have massive amount of cards and special turn order? I mean if you're fighting essentially 5 on 1, the DM has to have massive leeway for it work. You know, someone should work on this, it could be interestingly fun to play. I don't think the DM would use cards, unless each monster had like 3-4 cards which he drew randomly from. That could be neat, and a way to replace the recharge mechanic. |
| #9cdtalmasJan 25, 2011 14:28:10 |
Kind of like the Crusader of Bo9S? |
| #10Tony_VargasJan 25, 2011 14:29:46 | CCGs do not belong in D&D. Just be greatful it took this long for WotC to finagle them in... |
| #11lokiareJan 25, 2011 16:58:45 | CCGs do not belong in D&D. I'm not grateful for anything WotC has done in the past 3-4 months... |
| #12thaxJan 25, 2011 17:01:34 | We don't need to have a D&D CCG, there already is one. It is called Magic The Gathering... |
| #13_Mithreinmaethor_Jan 25, 2011 17:36:36 | CCGs do not belong in D&D. Thats a lie. You have been for for a couple of years whining about WOTC |
| #14lokiareJan 25, 2011 18:41:34 | CCGs do not belong in D&D. no, i've been critical of their choices using factual well reasoned responses to get my points across. I have not been "whining". I like it when people belittle the complainers, rather than what is being complained about. It tells me they can't refute the argument. Its the same thing with michael moore. I don't like the guy, but since no one is countering his arguments with facts and instead use charcter assassination, it makes me wonder if he isn't right. My DM asked me why i maxed my assassin's bluff out, and I told him he's a character assassin... |
| #15Damon_TorJan 25, 2011 19:59:55 | We don't need to have a D&D CCG, there already is one. It is called Magic The Gathering... I think in the next year or two, Hasbro will shelve D&D, but continue to use the D&D brand for other products. Like it or not, Boardgames and CCGs are where D&D is heading. If we are lucky, it will still involve dice and character sheets... if were' lucky. |
| #16ceiling90Jan 26, 2011 0:47:14 | As to how DnD would seem to work as a Card game: I envision the DM more like how Magic works - You have an exp limit, and you draw your cards and putting down as many as you like down. Each of these cards are obstacles worth a specific number of exp, and you can put down as many or as little in your "encounter". Each card has specific values for attack, defense, and other stats, of which are changeable with exp counters: So let's say you draw 3 goblins, each of which is worth maybe 25xp - but your encounter calls for 150 exp; you can add to their stats like the DMG explains via exp counters (each worth about 25xp) so now you've got these higher level goblins to fight against your players. Your players have a different deck, of which are powers and feats, and other nifty things like class features; of which they draw on. They may play powers if they have requisite levels; and may play feats as soon as they get them. Class features you may have multiple copies and have more card specific rules, I would surmise. In this version, there are no dice. You play the power and the power has a specific damage and effect values. But the way they're handled would be based on the action currency still. So in a way: Feats and Weapons/Implements are closer to artifacts - but no cost and instant play Powers are closer to instants, interrupts, and enchantments Class features are strange, since they can be anything, dependent on what it does. Or really, you could change it out so that you have a PC card, it has some notes, a portrait and name space and class features. It acts as your one creature, and the rest are the same. Anyone ever play UFS? |
| #17PobmanJan 26, 2011 3:50:29 | A company near where I live are releasing a card based RPG system: 6d6fireball.com/games/6d6-rpg/ I played a quick demo, which was a PvP game just to see what the rules were like. I've yet to try an RPG session, but I'm definitely interested in trying it out. Basically, the cards replace your character sheet and there is resource management dealing with which cards you have active and which ones you can use etc. I certainly found it an original approach to RPGs, but then again my RPG knowledge is rather limited so maybe it's not. |
| #18GarthanosJan 26, 2011 5:12:22 | Another possibility is also to use the cards as a random number generator = one way to regulate how many of a given card could go a deck could be by putting a randomizer number on them.... so a deck with rares would have low numbers for a random draw where as a deck with commons would have higher numbers. Of course it wouldnt need to be rareness just potency which regulated that number... so a card from your hand might say deliver 1 draw of damage and you draw a card a card when you play it to determine what that damage was. It would have self regulation kind of lke not wanting all high mana costing cards in MTG |
| #42strand0Feb 05, 2011 3:18:32 | Um... If Wizards is smart, they won't attempt this as the last time someone tried to make a card-based D&D [TSR: Dragonlance SAGA system] it was received with very strong negative reviews. Not as bad as that Resent Marvel Superhero System that Marvel self Published. So bad it really wasn't a RPG. |