Discuss.
Personally, I would like the option to take the Hybrid Talent feat more than once, but I understand things need balance. Perhaps making a Paragon and Epic version of this feat would be reasonable. Taking a Hybrid Paragon Path could give you the Paragon feet for free, in addition to whatever else they have planned.
Overall, I like the changes, though I probably wouldn't play a hybrid character myself. My play style is to take one archetype to an extreme, and do it very well. None of these fighter/wizard shenanigans for me!
If I want to backstab, I'll play a sneaky character, thank you very much! If I want to blast things, I'll be a sorcerer! If I want to warp reality to my will, I'll be a wizard!
And stay off my lawn!
It is the iconic feature, though.
I agree. I just wish I had the option not to take it. I have no desire every to shape-shift, at least not with this character. Druids do things other than shape-shift, you know. For example, they currently have the best available selection of plant-based powered.
It's very critical to my arcane botanist to have a good selection of plant-based powers, and re-flavoring Wizard powers is only getting me so far...
I might suggest the multiclass feat that will (very likely) be in Primal Power which would let you take a feature other than Wild Shape.
I've considered that too, and it could probably work, though in that case I would probably want to PMC. I guess I'll have to wait and see...
EDIT i completely missed it. i focused in on self-forged. i feel dumb
Otherwise: there are a few other nature based classes that might go better with your concept?
Linky: http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=945
If you just want the powers you really should just PMC.
The only problem with that it I just don't want to be restricted to having only this many Druid powers or having to have at least this many Wizard powers. I was hoping Hybrid Classing might fix my dilemma, but I guess I'll just wait until Primal Power comes out with a Druid MC feat that'll give me something useful instead of Wildshape and then stick with PMCing...
Otherwise: there are a few other nature based classes that might go better with your concept?
Nope. Neither Barbarians nor Shamans have any plant-based powers, and Wardens are a very heavily melee class. Druid is really a perfect fit...
Personally, I would like the option to take the Hybrid Talent feat more than once, but I understand things need balance. Perhaps making a Paragon and Epic version of this feat would be reasonable.
Oh! I thought we could. Well that boosts my confidence in the system even more.
Everything else is definitely a step up from Round 1 Hybrid Rules.
I'd also agree that Wildshape should be optional, but having wildshape as a Hybrid Talent would be too crippling to anyone who did want to Wildshape.
I still think the skills are too low and it should be 4 skills +any granted by your hybrid class.
One thing I didn't like is that I thought the nerf to beast companions was arbitrary.
I agree and have posted at length about my issues with the hybrid ranger over on the Dragon/Dungeon Article Discussion forum.
Oh! I thought we could. Well that boosts my confidence in the system even more.
Well you can take it twice but you have to PHC(Paragon Hybrid Class).
Unless i'm missing something, it still doesn't explain how PMC works with regards to Hybrid Classing (though I think the only issue is with the At-wills).
You don't get an At-Will. You get another Hybrid Talent feat.
EDIT: i like the changes they have made. i am more likely to use a hybrid character with the updated rules. i was still hoping for something where you could use the Talent feat to do something like be able to use Sneak Attack with all your powers, not just your rogue powers, but alas... it wouldn't seem too OP to me because in this case you are using the one Talent feat you get (unless you PMC) to boost the abilities of an existing Hybrid talent instead of gaining another, potentially very useful, talent. They coudl even restrict it to only upgrading one original hybrid talent over your PCs career (so a rogue/avenger could get both full Sneak Attack and Oath of Enmity, for example).
For example, I planned on making a Rogue/Avenger Hybrid. It would be nice to be able to spend that feat to get Sneak Attack on every attack, or Oath of Enmity on every attack. If not, then my next choices are Rogue Weapon Talent, Armor of Faith (very nice AC boost) or possibly Channel Divinity (which opens up the the deity feat). Those other options are very nice for the character, but I would give them up for the full blown Sneak Attack or Oath of Enmity. The same could be said for a fighter/whatever to be able to mark with every attack, etc.
One thing I didn't like is that I thought the nerf to beast companions was arbitrary.
It's because you are getting Prime Shot, which beastmasters normally don't get.
You don't get an At-Will. You get another Hybrid Talent feat.
That is PHC not PMC. Completely different things. :P Honestly, based on the current rules, I don't think you are able to PMC from a Hybrid class unless you are a human(or you just don't gain the at-will unless you are human).
As an example:
Avenger\Barbarian
Feats: Hide Armor Spec, Improved Armor of Faith
Numbers: 10(base)+15(level)+5(masterwork Hide)+3(Barbarian Agility)+6(enhancement)+3(armor of faith)+3(improved armor of faith)+1(Armor Specialization+7(Dex)
=53 total AC
2 feats
This char can wield a 2-handed weapon such as a fullblade and just dominate some fools while maintaining a 53, non-situational AC. Compare that to:
Fighter
Feats: Shield Specialization, Plate Armor Proficiency
Paragon Path: Pit Fighter
Epic Destiny: Adamantine Soldier
10(base)+15(level)+14(Masterwork Plate)+6(enhancement)+1(Shield Specialization)+1(Pit Fighter)+2(Adamantine Soldier)+3(Agile Armor)
=52 Total AC
2 feats
1 Paragon Path, 1 Epic Destiny
This char can only use a 1-handed weapon and still takes the -2 armor check penalty from a heavy-shield even with the epic destiny. The +3 from agile armor uses up the armor enhancement slot and is situational (doesn't work when bloodied).
The untyped static armor bonuses could use a couple exceptions added in so they either don't stack, don't keep ramping up, or don't give access to the feats that improve them.
Note: Hybrid barbarians automatically get access to hide even if their other half doesn't have hide proficiency. (barbarian agility, hybrid) You don't need leather/hide prof feats to get it.
The only real problem I see is the ability to start stacking the untyped AC bonuses granted by barbarians, swordmages and avengers. Any combo of those will give you an opening to absolutely dominating AC.
As an example:
Avenger\Barbarian
Feats: Hide Armor Spec, Improved Armor of Faith
Numbers: 10(base)+15(level)+5(masterwork Hide)+3(Barbarian Agility)+6(enhancement)+3(armor of faith)+3(improved armor of faith)+1(Armor Specialization+7(Dex)
=53 total AC
2 feats
This char can wield a 2-handed weapon such as a fullblade and just dominate some fools while maintaining a 53, non-situational AC.
Note: Hybrid barbarians automatically get access to hide even if their other half doesn't have hide proficiency. (barbarian agility, hybrid) You don't need leather/hide prof feats to get it.
Actually it takes more than 2 feats. The hybrind avenger doesn't get his armor of faith without the hybrid talent feat, and the barbarian doesn't get armored agility without the hybrid talent feat. So you would have to take the hybrid talent feat, and you would have to phc to get both aspects. I don't think that makes it too overpowered since you do have to give up more to get it.
You also will be rather gimped by maxing out your dex since you need a high wisdom for the avengers powers and a high strength for the barbarian powers. If you don't maximize those two stats, you are at a terrible disadvantage with your powers(only being able to hit with one at will more than likely unless your human). I really don't see this build being very good for anything but not getting hit very much.
start with a stat array of:
11 str
13 con
18 dex
10 int
18 wis
8 cha
you would end up with a
13 str
15 con
26 dex (28 with ed)
12 int
26 wis (again 28 with ed
10 cha
Now you would have a final ac consisting of
10(base)+15(level)+5(masterwork hide)+6(enhancement)+3(barbarian)+3(armor of faith)+3(imp armor of faith)+1(hide spec)+7(dex)
you now have spent 3 feats-hybrid talent, improved armor of faith, and hide spec, and have gone phc.
All of this to get an insane ac, but you only have a +22 to hit with your barbarian powers, which you can only roll once on as well.
That seems like too much to get a 53 ac to me.
Oh well, a mind is overrated anyways.
I will say, though, that the statement "this seems like too much to get..." is a dangerous one, because people WILL do it, and more often than you'd think. In your example, instead of going elf avenger, go genasi swordmage. You can max int/str at each level and end up with crazy AC and crazy attack at the same time, without the downsides. Yeah you've gotta spend feats to do it... but people will spend feats to do it
I'm not concerned so much with how common it is, just how breakable it might be in a worst-case kind of deal, and only because 4e is trying so hard to avoid the crazy stacking that you could do in 3 and 3.5.
*crosses fingers*
(also i dont think hybrid classes are a top priority. there are lots and lots of character conceps already possible with the classes that are already there. even before the phb2. you wanted to play a babarian? take a ranger and give him two axes and adjust the flavour. same for the hybrid classes. you want a fighter/wizard? play a swordmage. and what cant be done with pure classes, can be done via multiclassing.)
so please really, really take your time and do a lot of testing before publishing the new rules and wait for phb 4 if necessary .
Fighter
Feats: Shield Specialization, Plate Armor Proficiency
Paragon Path: Pit Fighter
Epic Destiny: Adamantine Soldier
10(base)+15(level)+14(Masterwork Plate)+6(enhancement)+1(Shield Specialization)+1(Pit Fighter)+2(Adamantine Soldier)+3(Agile Armor)
=52 Total AC
2 feats
1 Paragon Path, 1 Epic Destiny
This char can only use a 1-handed weapon and still takes the -2 armor check penalty from a heavy-shield even with the epic destiny. The +3 from agile armor uses up the armor enhancement slot and is situational (doesn't work when bloodied).
You also didn't add in the actual shield bonus.
Ok, wow, somehow I missed that those weren't the default feats and that you needed to take the talent to get them. My bad on that. I double-checked that too, I must be losing my mind.
Oh well, a mind is overrated anyways.
I will say, though, that the statement "this seems like too much to get..." is a dangerous one, because people WILL do it, and more often than you'd think. In your example, instead of going elf avenger, go genasi swordmage. You can max int/str at each level and end up with crazy AC and crazy attack at the same time, without the downsides. Yeah you've gotta spend feats to do it... but people will spend feats to do it
I'm not concerned so much with how common it is, just how breakable it might be in a worst-case kind of deal, and only because 4e is trying so hard to avoid the crazy stacking that you could do in 3 and 3.5.
While I agree some people will do it, changing the armor of faith or other class abilities to typed bonuses is a huge change. Perhaps wizards could make class granted a type that is non stacking, or maybe make the hybrid versions typed bonuses.
As far as the Genasi Barbarian Swordmage, the AC would be extreme, but that is where the DM should start sending them at a lot of enemies who attack will. The character in question would be weak in will, and most likely have low hp from a lack of con. So yeah it would be broken in terms of AC, but would be equally vulnerable in other aspects.
Unless i'm missing something, it still doesn't explain how PMC works with regards to Hybrid Classing (though I think the only issue is with the At-wills).
If I'm understanding correctly, it works the same as it does for everybody else. You take multiclass feats and power swap-feats for a class other than either of your own, and then you PMC into that class instead of taking a Paragon Path. What's the problem?
If I'm understanding correctly, it works the same as it does for everybody else. You take multiclass feats and power swap-feats for a class other than either of your own, and then you PMC into that class instead of taking a Paragon Path. What's the problem?
PMC has you switch one of your at-wills for your MC's at-wills. Hybrid classing states that if you have at least two of a power type at least one of them must be from each of your classes. Unless you are a human, you only have two at-wills. Therefore the question is which rule takes precedence.
PMC has you switch one of your at-wills for your MC's at-wills. Hybrid classing states that if you have at least two of a power type at least one of them must be from each of your classes. Unless you are a human, you only have two at-wills. Therefore the question is which rule takes precedence.
I'd say the PMC rule, otherwise there's no point to PMCing a hybrid character. Although without it being specifically spelled out, you will have to ask your DM if he'll nerf PMCing on you.
Whats with all the "X Soul" builds in the sorcerer entry? Are the retconning the names in the PHB2 and arcane power?
Reading the entries of each source of a sorcerer's magic, Soul of the Cosmic Cycle is a part of the Cosmic Magic(It is actually in the cosmic magic's entry) as is each of the other 'X souls' listed in there. They aren't retconning, they are pointing to specific parts of each of the four types of magic the sorcerer has.
As far as PMC goes, both Hybrid rules and Paragon MC rules are pretty specific, hard to cancel each other out. I think though PMC would beat out the Hybrid rule since its more specific. Otherwise Humans are probably the only ones who would PMC.
As far as PMC goes, both Hybrid rules and Paragon MC rules are pretty specific, hard to cancel each other out. I think though PMC would beat out the Hybrid rule since its more specific. Otherwise Humans are probably the only ones who would PMC.
I'd say that PMC, as well as power swap feats, would override the normal hybrid "1 from each class" restriction by virtue of the fact that thye over-wright a character's normal powers. A character would first generate their normal, unmodified, power list obeying the necessary hybrid restriction and then after that list is generated they would be free to use multiclassing to replace any of those powers, free of any hybrid based restrictions.
I'm intrigued by the idea of PHC, but what does it do other than open up hybrid talent again?
There isn't a restriction on which class you have to take the Paragon powers from. You can take them from either. So if you are a Fighter/Wizard and want to focus a bit more on the wizard side in Paragon, you take only Wizard powers for your three Paragon path powers.
you can select any encounter power of 7th level or lower from either of your hybrid classes.
you can select any utility power of 10th level or lower from either of your hybrid classes.
you can select any daily power of 19th level or lower from either of your hybrid classes.
I'm intrigued by the idea of PHC, but what does it do other than open up hybrid talent again? And additionally, what's with spellbook not being present and beast companions being nerfed? Was there really any abusive build that focused on using the beast as more than a flanking device?
I can't speak on the beast companion being nerfed except that they are remarkably strong as is as so a weaker form would fit the concept of a lesser ability but as for the spell book, it would be too hard to balance it correctly. Let's look a fighter|wizard. With spellbook at 1st level, he picks up a wizard daily and another for the spell book but later decided to trade his daily for a fighter daily, what would happen to the one in his spellbook? Would it sit there unusable, obviously he can't exchange his fighter daily for his spellbook power because once he hits level 4 that would violate the balance of class powers for his dailies. The same occurs for his utilities. It brings balance issues or more appropriately play issues that can be avoided with its absence.
Ever since the initial hybrid article I've been playing a Warden hybrid where you get the Nature's Wrath (Hybrid) class feature just like the current article - except instead of marking one adjacent enemy and gaining both at-wills, you can mark all adjacent enemies and the Warden's Fury and Warden's Grasp as encounter powers. It functions like the Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid) class feature insomuch as you can use each power once per encounter unless a creature marked by you is reduced to 0 hit points, in which case you regain use of both power.
To me, this maintains the uniqueness of the Warden's marking tactics without making the hybrid class overpowered. It also seems more in line with how other hybrid defender classes work: i.e. the Hybrid Paladin's marking ability functions like normal but is weaker than the "pure" Paladin, the Fighter still marks with every Fighter power, and the Swordmage's Aegis is reduced in its amount of use but otherwise the same.
What does everyone else think?
I can't speak on the beast companion being nerfed except that they are remarkably strong as is as so a weaker form would fit the concept of a lesser ability but as for the spell book, it would be too hard to balance it correctly. Let's look a fighter|wizard. With spellbook at 1st level, he picks up a wizard daily and another for the spell book but later decided to trade his daily for a fighter daily, what would happen to the one in his spellbook? Would it sit there unusable, obviously he can't exchange his fighter daily for his spellbook power because once he hits level 4 that would violate the balance of class powers for his dailies. The same occurs for his utilities. It brings balance issues or more appropriately play issues that can be avoided with its absence.
I would imagine that it would function exactly as it would if a regular Wizard who muticlassed into Fighter and took a power swap feat, both his spells for that level go *poof* and he gets the fighter power instead.
PMC has you switch one of your at-wills for your MC's at-wills. Hybrid classing states that if you have at least two of a power type at least one of them must be from each of your classes. Unless you are a human, you only have two at-wills. Therefore the question is which rule takes precedence.
Also, as you're MCing and you swap out powers, there's no stipultion that you have to maintain the balance.
So at 4th you could swap out the only other encounter power from your class, you could constantly swap out the only power of a class.
I'm not sure why you'd want to do this, but you can, and its weird.
I also wish they had given the avenger some way of getting a cincture without having to take the hybrid talent feat. The other strickers get their extra damage so long as they are using their powers.
I would love to make an avenger/cleric, but too many of the cleric powers are str based instead of wisdom. This same problem will apply to paladin and warlocks. The problem is that every other class has one main attack stat.
You forgot Ranger (Str or Dex). Also, i don't see the problem with Avenger/Cleric. Are you saying it's a problem because you only choose between 1/2 the powers? Or are you saying you would prefer if their melee powers were Wisdom based?
Almost all clerics make the same choice. Str or Wis based. Builds that do both are not as good as ones that do one build. If you are going Avenger/Cleric, you take the implement powers of the cleric to keep the same stat as primary. Or you go with a slightly (very slightly) suboptimal Str score (it's easy to do 18 in Wis 16 in Str). Or wait for a Strength/Wisdom race.
This same problem will apply to paladin and warlocks. The problem is that every other class has one main attack stat.
A Cleric, Warlock or Paladin can MC or HC with twice as many classes as an Avenger can and still share an attack stat.
Or wait for a Strength/Wisdom race.
Longtooth Shifters have been PC-approved since March.
Longtooth Shifters have been PC-approved since March.
D'oh! I always forget the shifters. i never paid much attention to them in 3.X either.