So what do you think they've did, or hope they do for the final version of hybrids?
For one I hope they've no longer made "Hybrid Ability" a "must-have feat". And just made it a feature of all hybrid characters.
I guess we might see the hybrid entries for the Artificer, Ardent, Monk, Psion and Seeker. But I feel that we should be seeing other feats for hybrids, including one that let's you treat one power as also a power of your other class once per encounter, so that you can combine class feature based extra damage.
I expect that the PH3 will have hybrid versions of all other classes other than the Assassin. Any classes in existing books like PH1, 2 and 3 along with EPG and FRPG should have hybrid version in PH3. That would make sense to me.
strange to see winning races: tielfings, class acts: wizard, sealing the pact, invoker essentials... all were recently addressed, but coming up again? maybe they haven't got everything ready and those are placeholders...
hope that plenty of good options for hybrid does come through, but it gives some concern that it will come in PH3, while there appears to be a certain reason to expect PH4. that means that there will have to be more hybrid rules in PH4 and we can expect further changes then as well as in PH3. well, that's just me. it might be that shadow PS won't get more attention than assassin and possibly elemental PS won't ever get touched, despite being a teaser in PH1.
what aresome things you'd most like to see in hybrid rules?
Perhaps it will be interesting to see the commentary, because I wonder if they're going to admit that 4e Hybrid classing is a lot like 2e multiclassing (minus the averaging of HP and splitting the XP).
If there's one thing I doubt there will be in the article is hybrid versions of classes they haven't previewed yet like the Battlemind and whatever the new Divine class is.
Perhaps it will be interesting to see the commentary, because I wonder if they're going to admit that 4e Hybrid classing is a lot like 2e multiclassing (minus the averaging of HP and splitting the XP).
Does something so obvious need to be admitted?
Perhaps it will be interesting to see the commentary, because I wonder if they're going to admit that 4e Hybrid classing is a lot like 2e multiclassing (minus the averaging of HP and splitting the XP).
This fact is what I like about them. To me it is 2e multiclassing done right. it's balanced. I believe in options. The hybrid classes bring those in spades. You lose out on some of the class features in order to make a unique character to fit your character concept. I think wizards has done well.
I'm also gonna hope that they put the Assassin in simultaneously, 'cause that'd be great. Monk|Rogue or Monk|Assassin would be the deadliest thing out there.
I'm curious what sort of changes the debut hybrid stuff is gonna have. There are some things I'd like to see fixed, like how basic attacks are treated (rather, lack of treatment), and of course I'd be interested in seeing hybrid components of all the classes that we have from the PH3, and the Artificer.
I'm also gonna hope that they put the Assassin in simultaneously, 'cause that'd be great. Monk|Rogue or Monk|Assassin would be the deadliest thing out there.
I'm 100% certain they won't put in the Assassin. The article is set for the day that books come out, which means it's the Debut article (even if that's not noted at this point). WotC said that Assassins would NOT get hard-cover (or soft-cover) treatment ever. Since it's a debut article, it'll only include material from the PH3 (especially since it's called "PH3 Hybrids"), besides the commentary, of course, and thus won't include Assassins.
That said, I somewhat doubt that they'll cover the PH3 classes. It'll probably be an update to the Playtest releases, possibly with Artificers as well. Since only one build has been released for each of Monk, Psion, Ardent, and Seeker, I doubt they'd release the Hybrid forms of those as well.
We'll probably see the Assassin Hybrid in the first Assassin article after the PH3 release.
That said and done, I'm looking forward to seeing how they treated the Hybrids this time. Hopefully it's a significant improvement on what they did before, because right now my good mate is NOT pleased with Hybrids or Psionics (the PP-subsystem).
That said and done, I'm looking forward to seeing how they treated the Hybrids this time. Hopefully it's a significant improvement on what they did before, because right now my good mate is NOT pleased with Hybrids...
I have to agree. Right now, I'm just having a really difficult time caring about Hybrids. Everything that I think I might want to do with Hybrids I can do better with Multi-Class Feats and Paragon Multi-Classing. I think that the problem for me may be how they've dealt with class features, but I'm not sure...
That said, I somewhat doubt that they'll cover the PH3 classes. It'll probably be an update to the Playtest releases, possibly with Artificers as well. Since only one build has been released for each of Monk, Psion, Ardent, and Seeker, I doubt they'd release the Hybrid forms of those as well.
From what I saw of the previous hybrid entries, you didn't need to have a full description of all builds to make a hybrid entry of a class. For example with the Ardent, you just need Ardent Mantle, Ardent Surge and Psionic Augmentation. And with Ardent Mantle, you just need, "you get one Ardent Mantle of your choice as the Ardent Ability". It doesn't even need to include what the Mantle of Elation does.
Same thing with the Monk, which would be you get a monastic tradition with the condition that it's flurry of blows only works with Monk powers, and that's it. The details of whether it's Centered Breath or Stonefist doesn't need to be included in the entry.
I'm 100% certain they won't put in the Assassin. The article is set for the day that books come out, which means it's the Debut article (even if that's not noted at this point). WotC said that Assassins would NOT get hard-cover (or soft-cover) treatment ever. Since it's a debut article, it'll only include material from the PH3 (especially since it's called "PH3 Hybrids"), besides the commentary, of course, and thus won't include Assassins.
Ever? That's dissapointing. I'm a little new to 4e, so haven't been following all the news, but had figured it was a playtest or something. Does anyone have a link to the source for this?
I'm 100% certain they won't put in the Assassin. The article is set for the day that books come out, which means it's the Debut article (even if that's not noted at this point). WotC said that Assassins would NOT get hard-cover (or soft-cover) treatment ever. Since it's a debut article, it'll only include material from the PH3 (especially since it's called "PH3 Hybrids"), besides the commentary, of course, and thus won't include Assassins.
Ever? That's dissapointing. I'm a little new to 4e, so haven't been following all the news, but had figured it was a playtest or something. Does anyone have a link to the source for this?
It's not a playtest or a debut article. It's an EXCLUSIVE article to Dragon. WotC have said TIME AND TIME AGAIN that Assassin and Revenant will get their support ONLY IN DRAGON MAGAZINE.
It's not a playtest or a debut article. It's an EXCLUSIVE article to Dragon. WotC have said TIME AND TIME AGAIN that Assassin and Revenant will get their support ONLY IN DRAGON MAGAZINE.
I take it that was one of those asked all the time questions people get tired of answering. I apologize, then, and thank you for the answer. I'll try and do better searches before asking such questions.
It's not a playtest or a debut article. It's an EXCLUSIVE article to Dragon. WotC have said TIME AND TIME AGAIN that Assassin and Revenant will get their support ONLY IN DRAGON MAGAZINE.
I take it that was one of those asked all the time questions people get tired of answering. I apologize, then, and thank you for the answer. I'll try and do better searches before asking such questions.
No problem. Sorry for sounding harsh.
Anyone know if the Character Builder will get an update with this info? From the content calendar it doesn't appear to show when the next update will be
Assumably the same day as always. Oh, and the current issue confirms it's the Debut article for PH3.
the next update is on the 19th of Jan.
cool (also see they added that to the content calendar)
Hopefully they allow for hybrid monks, would love to build a rogue / monk hybrid for a parkour thief / empty hand close combat specialist.
That said and done, I'm looking forward to seeing how they treated the Hybrids this time. Hopefully it's a significant improvement on what they did before, because right now my good mate is NOT pleased with Hybrids...
I have to agree. Right now, I'm just having a really difficult time caring about Hybrids. Everything that I think I might want to do with Hybrids I can do better with Multi-Class Feats and Paragon Multi-Classing. I think that the problem for me may be how they've dealt with class features, but I'm not sure...
That's just how I feel. When the original playtesting was going on, I was focused on just how gimpy the Wizard hybrid felt, but since then I've had the opportunity to work with a few other hybrid mixes, and every time I'm left with the feeling that I could have accomplished the same "concept" character, with better combat capabilities, by using feats.
Hybrids just feel overly gimped in their current form, so I really hope the revamp makes them feel better. I really fear it won't though, given that those in favor of what was done seemed to be "louder" on the forums during playtesting.
If these rules aren't more "fun" to me, I doubt I'll be picking up PHB3, which is unheard of to me regarding 4e books. I have practically every 4e book. Without material beyond the classes/races that I'm interested in, it doesn't make sense for me to buy the book. The Character Builder gives me everything I need at this point. I really hope this idea of "options" is well represented in this book.
We can't change what they did now…
Not without *shudders*
eratta…
I do agree though that Hybrid Talent for Armor is sort of a "boring" option. I'd much rather have averaged armor proficencies, or if that'd be too complicated simply having a "Hybrid Armor" feat distinct from Hybrid talent-would do the job. It'd be a slight feat sink, but less of one than Multiclassing (or equal if the character chooses to PHC and take Hybrid Talent again).
Sorry for the rambly post, but I suppose what I'm trying to say is that Hybrid characters present different mechanical options to players but they are at least IMHO equal to those offered by MC and PMC.
Anyone know if the Character Builder will get an update with this info? From the content calendar it doesn't appear to show when the next update will be
I don't know about this particular info, but the next update is Jan. 19th (next Tuesday).
I just want to see the level 16+ leader problem get fixed. And the artificer added. And hybrid rules for the psion/ardent would be good, to get an idea of how augmentable at-wills work in multiclass. Actually, same thing for the monk (full disciplines get strange in multiclass). I agree that hybrids should probably get Hybrid Talent as a bonus feat, but it won't be the first instance of a feat tax in 4e.
If Jan. 19th is debut content, as it's supposed to appear in PH3, then there's no reason why the hybrid assassin couldn't appear then. Since hybrid rules take up only 2 pages, it seems kind of silly to have a whole article for the hybrid assassin. Unless they pad it with six pages of fluff and ten pages of sample characters.
I just want to see the level 16+ leader problem get fixed. And the artificer added. And hybrid rules for the psion/ardent would be good, to get an idea of how augmentable at-wills work in multiclass. Actually, same thing for the monk (full disciplines get strange in multiclass). I agree that hybrids should probably get Hybrid Talent as a bonus feat, but it won't be the first instance of a feat tax in 4e.
There's a very definite reason why Hybrid Assassins can't appear in a Debut article. All the material in Debut articles are from the actual book itself, plus commentary.
Assassins are D&Di only. That means that they won't appear in any way, shape, or form in the books, and thus won't have a Hybrid version in PH3.
There's a very definite reason why Hybrid Assassins can't appear in a Debut article. All the material in Debut articles are from the actual book itself, plus commentary.
Assassins are D&Di only. That means that they won't appear in any way, shape, or form in the books, and thus won't have a Hybrid version in PH3.
Not only that, but we also already know, and have known since .... October I think, that we are getting a third Assassin build within the next few months. Logic dictates then that the third build will come out roughly when the PHB3 does, maybe a month later, and that the Hybrid Assassin rules will come with it.
Or they could just release the Hybrid Assassin rules by itself when the PHB3 comes out. It's not like WotC isn't already putting out 2 and 3 page articles or anything ...
I just want to see the level 16+ leader problem get fixed. And the artificer added. And hybrid rules for the psion/ardent would be good, to get an idea of how augmentable at-wills work in multiclass. Actually, same thing for the monk (full disciplines get strange in multiclass). I agree that hybrids should probably get Hybrid Talent as a bonus feat, but it won't be the first instance of a feat tax in 4e.
How Augmentable At-Wills interact with hybrids and multiclassing will indeed be interesting to see, but I wouldn't be willing to place any bets on whether or not this month's debut content will answer those questions. As for monks, I don't see the difficulty, full disciplines are all two-part powers, but otherwise follow the same At-Will/Encounter/Daily pattern of every other class so there shouldn't be any compatibility issues.
As for feat taxes, while Hybrid Talent is often a very good feat it isn't usually a must have (with the possible exception of Hybrid Armor or alternative AC stats). A hybrid generally gets everything it needs to achieve BASIC functionality as part of its initial package (aforementioned AC issues aside) so it really isn't true feat tax, certainly not in comparison with the likes of the expertise feats.
How Augmentable At-Wills interact with hybrids and multiclassing will indeed be interesting to see, but I wouldn't be willing to place any bets on whether or not this month's debut content will answer those questions.
If it includes the psion, ardent, or battlemind, it will; if not, it won't. I'd like it to, is all.
As for monks, I don't see the difficulty, full disciplines are all two-part powers, but otherwise follow the same At-Will/Encounter/Daily pattern of every other class so there shouldn't be any compatibility issues.
Well, at-will full disciplines are a little tricky because if you're attacking with a power from your other class, you have no reason to not use the monk power for the bonus movement option. This is especially true for a Versatile Master.
As for feat taxes, while Hybrid Talent is often a very good feat it isn't usually a must have (with the possible exception of Hybrid Armor or alternative AC stats). A hybrid generally gets everything it needs to achieve BASIC functionality as part of its initial package (aforementioned AC issues aside) so it really isn't true feat tax, certainly not in comparison with the likes of the expertise feats.
It's almost always an exceptionally good feat, so good that except for rare cases (controllers, mostly, perhaps), you'd be an idiot not to take it.
However, you're right: the AC feats are the only must-haves. Which sucks if you really want a Hybrid Talent of some other sort but don't get heavy armor, Dex, or Int. But they can't make everything too easy.
(snip snip)
However, you're right: the AC feats are the only must-haves. Which sucks if you really want a Hybrid Talent of some other sort but don't get heavy armor, Dex, or Int. But they can't make everything too easy.
Here's a hope that the AC talents were removed after the second playtesting…
It's still gonna be a must-have and boring feat, but at least it lets you have one hybrid class feature for real.
Or simply split Hybrid Armor from the list of Hybrid Talents, make it a separate feat, and make that each Hybrid char can pick both Hybrid Armor and one Hybrid Talent.
It's still gonna be a must-have and boring feat, but at least it lets you have one hybrid class feature for real.
That actually makes more sense. I was toying with the idea of median armour (if one class gives hide, and the other scale, you get chain, for example), but that doesn't really makes sense in the context of the class training to use those armour types.
The real reason why I don't want armour as a hybrid talent is because I want to take the other hybrid talents. So separating the feats out is a good idea, in my opinion.
Or simply split Hybrid Armor from the list of Hybrid Talents, make it a separate feat, and make that each Hybrid char can pick both Hybrid Armor and one Hybrid Talent.
It's still gonna be a must-have and boring feat, but at least it lets you have one hybrid class feature for real.
That actually makes more sense. I was toying with the idea of median armour (if one class gives hide, and the other scale, you get chain, for example), but that doesn't really makes sense in the context of the class training to use those armour types.
The real reason why I don't want armour as a hybrid talent is because I want to take the other hybrid talents. So separating the feats out is a good idea, in my opinion.
Still sounds better than what their currently doing.Which is easier to learn a classas armor or weapon prof(and Im not say take that away)?