Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zack Feb 25, 2009 15:12:35	With the addition of a the new powersource primal and all this talk about monks and whether or not ki will be a powersource(methinks primal makes sense) i was just wondering. Will necromancy ever be around? How will it work with the 4e game mechanics? Maybe a new powersorce? I don't think that it needs a new source all to itself. Although it does tend to get a new sourcebook all to itself when its released. Will it be a controller or a leader of sorts? Would we be able to raise fallen enemies? If so would raising to many or to strong of one be unbalanced? I think it will work more like necrocarnum or the new shaman and druid, a pet like system. One that raises the strength of your undead as you level. It could possibly be added as ritual magic. Have a class or set of feats devoted to using that specific ritual. Well anywho... what does eveyone else think? Does anyone else have any knowledge on the situation? I know monk will be available around may or so i heard. I would just like to know how when every one else thinks necromancy will come around.
#2 sigil_beguiler Feb 25, 2009 15:17:33	Well our best bet is Necromancy will be in PHB3-4 under the Shadow Power Source. We have gotten some hints of what Necromancy will hold. With a ritual to animate a undead servant in Open Grave. As well as Secrets of The City Entombed article for Dragon that showed off lots of Necromatic Powers for lots of different classes. Including the classic Animate Dead.
#3 Richmud Feb 25, 2009 15:17:49	Well this dragon article contains some necromancy powers for a number of arcane and divine classes: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090213 On the other hand hints were dropped that necromancy will end up in the shadow power source. Time will tell edit: Well I was ninja'd but the secrets of the city entombed mentioned above is the article I linked
#4 salla Feb 25, 2009 15:18:17	Necromancy will most likely be the Shadow power source. Its abilities will probably be similar to summoning druids/wizards; one sidekick that uses your own actions to control.
#5 Nautilus Feb 25, 2009 15:20:41	Necromancy is tipped to use the Shadow power source, possibly appearing in PHB3. The potential Necromancer class has been predicted to be a leader or controller. Though a necromancy specialist class may end up going by another name, like Witch.
#6 zack Feb 25, 2009 15:23:55	I see... very good. At least its on its way. I was hoping to see it sooner but ill be content knowing that its being worked on. thanks for the info guys
#7 doctorhook Feb 25, 2009 15:42:41	FWIW, necromancy isn't necessarily going to be an exclusive domain of the Shadow power source. As several other posters indicated, we already have some necromancy powers for a variety of classes from other power sources. (Wizards and Clerics, for example.) That said, yes, it will probably be a major theme of the Shadow power source -- along with illusion -- and may take the form of necrotic or vampiric ("life-sucking") magic as well as the summoning of undead and shadow creatures.
#8 That_Blasted_Somoflange Feb 26, 2009 14:23:27	No. You can't have necromancy. Judging on the title of this thread, you haven't learned how to play with the grammar power source yet. ;) Also, if you really need to play a necromancer now, why not just reflavour your wizard powers? Magic missile could be an ethereal skull that screams towards an opponent. Heck, your wizard's orb could also be a skull of some long dead wizard if you want. There is a ritual called undead servitor so you can have a zombie buddy for those long lonely nights... I mean while adventuring it can hold your junk.. I mean.. never mind. Like others have said though, the shadow power source will probably have a lot of death/undeath flavouring to it.
#9 pigknight Feb 27, 2009 2:14:27	The title is an lolcat thing. And I was disappointed.
#10 Steely_Dan Feb 27, 2009 8:11:29	My current speculation for the Shadow power source is: -Assassin/Ninja = Striker -Hexblade = Defender -Illusionist = Controller -Necromancer = Leader
#11 hellgrammite00 Feb 27, 2009 15:46:27	I am not sure if they will release a full 4 classes right away for the shadow power source. Might only create 2 at first. Shadow Power Source: (The names of the classes will be different, but probably in a similar form) Necromancer: Controller (and you can lean towards either striker or Leader) Umbrai Knight: Defender Shadow Mage: Striker
#12 doctorhook Feb 27, 2009 22:02:58	I am not sure if they will release a full 4 classes right away for the shadow power source. Might only create 2 at first. Shadow Power Source: (The names of the classes will be different, but probably in a similar form) Necromancer: Controller (and you can lean towards either striker or Leader) Umbrai Knight: Defender Shadow Mage: Striker Unfortunately, 4E has explicitly done away with multi-word class names, so "Umbrai Knight" and "Shadow Mage" are out. (Though they could make fine Paragon Path names.) Personally, my guesses look very much like Dan's: Ninja (Striker), Hexblade (Defender), Necromancer (Leader), Illusionist (Controller). Personally though, I'm starting to think that the names "Necromancer" and "Illusionist" will get the boot, if only because of their... blandness, and even if their core concepts were maintained. 4E is trying to establish a newer, more "modern" style for D&D -- in order for it to stay relevant and competitive in today's gaming market -- and one symptom of this seems to be the preference for shorter, simpler, more "badass-sounding" class names. "Illusionist" has a very "Gygaxian" ring to it.
#13 Ragnar_Lodbrok Feb 28, 2009 20:08:15	I agree with Dan on the shadow source, except that I think that the Necromancer and Illusionist will combine as a shadow controller because both are too narrow an archetype (imo) to justify separate classes and that they best lend themselves to the controller role.
#14 doctorhook Feb 28, 2009 21:23:37	I agree with Dan on the shadow source, except that I think that the Necromancer and Illusionist will combine as a shadow controller because both are too narrow an archetype (imo) to justify separate classes and that they best lend themselves to the controller role. I think it's worth swinging Cadfan's favorite schtick here, and mentioning that the Illusionist will likely "kill the Shadowcaster and take his stuff", so to speak. That adds a few more tricks to his repetoire.
#15 Steely_Dan Mar 02, 2009 3:12:33	I also speculate that Shadow Powers will be called: Mysteries.
#16 Nautilus Mar 02, 2009 3:48:45	I also speculate that Shadow Powers will be called: Mysteries. They'll most likely be called Mysteries, Hexes or Umbras. They will not, however, be called Fells.
#17 TheLoneCleric Mar 03, 2009 15:38:19	Mmm. Mysteries has a nice ring to it.
#18 hellgrammite00 Mar 03, 2009 18:50:34	Mysteries have been done, so that may be likely. Other ideas: Broods Convocations Descents Entropies Chagrins
#19 tyrandor Mar 03, 2009 19:39:57	I'm not sure why people feel that the illusionist and necromancer need to be made into their own class, but not other mage specialist (like Conjurers, Transmuters, etc)
#20 That_Blasted_Somoflange Mar 03, 2009 22:37:01	I'm not sure why people feel that the illusionist and necromancer need to be made into their own class, but not other mage specialist (like Conjurers, Transmuters, etc) Actually, I think a transmuter would be a great class for the elemental powersource - they would be able to turn basic elements into other elements. By basic elements I mean Earth, Fire, Wind, Water... and heart? So, turn the earth an enemy is standing on into water or fire, etc, etc. Lots of effects like that would be fun. Hey if a Conjurer summons elementals, I'd be okay with that being it's own class as well. :P
#21 Steely_Dan Mar 04, 2009 4:59:41	Mmm. Mysteries has a nice ring to it. I wish I could claim it's my original idea, but Shadowcaster spells in the ToM were called Mysteries, so there's a bit of precedence (legacy).
#22 hellgrammite00 Mar 31, 2009 0:03:42	Other ideas for what shadow powers will be called: Negations Coercions Afflictions Calamities
#23 monza Mar 31, 2009 22:51:30	You can has reflavoring powers and adding necrotic to keyword
#24 mkill Mar 31, 2009 23:34:21	Take a look at a class I'm currently writing: The Reaper. It's a shot at the Death Knight archetype, defender with the shadow power source and heavy on necromantic powers. At the moment, there is enough to create one at level one, I'll add more powers in the next days. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1169900
#25 Duskweaver Apr 01, 2009 3:27:40	My guesses, which are worth precisely as much as you've paid for them: Shadow powers will be called 'mysteries' as Steely_Dan said. Necromancer will most likely be the controller, focusing on summons and conjurations. Stealing HPs from the enemy to add THPs to his allies will give him a secondary leader role and one of his builds will focus heavily on this secondary role, so that an all-Shadow party is viable. The Shadow power source won't have a full leader class, however. Duskblade (not 'hexblade', which sounds too warlock-y, nor 'blackguard', which is a synonym for 'villain') will be the defender. He will have fairly mediocre HPs for a defender and probably be proficient in armour only up to chainmail and light shield, but will have powers that cause enemies to waste their attacks striking at scary-looking shadows or at illusions of the duskblade himself. His secondary role will be controller (which will be the 'theme role' of the Shadow source just as striker is for Martial). Shadowdancer will be the striker. She'll be essentially the same as the 3rd edition PrC of the same name: a ninja acrobat-assassin (but without any overt orientalism) that hides in shadows, can see perfectly in the dark, and is ludicrously difficult to hit. The fourth class will be a second Shadow controller. She might be called the Shadowcaster (but probably not if Shadowdancer is the striker class - two Shadow classes with the word 'shadow' in the title is very unlikely). She will use illusions rather than summons and conjurations and won't have any of the necromancer's leader qualities.
#26 Steely_Dan Apr 01, 2009 3:52:45	1.) Necromancer will most likely be the controller 2.) The Shadow power source won't have a full leader class, however. 3.) Duskblade 4.) Shadowdancer will be the striker. 1.) I think Illusionist will be the Shadow Controller. 2.) I'm thinking the Necromancer could be the leader – draining life from enemies to buff and heal his allies and what have you. 3.) I believe they mentioned the Hexblade in R&C, so I could see it as a Shadow Defender. 4.) I'm hoping for the Assassin as the shadow striker, using shadow to move and strike from them. While the Ninja could be a good choice, they have a lot of cultural baggage, and they have a legacy of using Ki, so I know a lot of people hate it, but the Ninja could very well be a Ki class. Just my speculations for the day, nothing more.
#27 That_Blasted_Somoflange Apr 02, 2009 6:20:29	1.) I think Illusionist will be the Shadow Controller. I'm hoping that it is going to the psychic controller. 2.) I'm thinking the Necromancer could be the leader – draining life from enemies to buff and heal his allies and what have you. You know, that is a pretty cool idea. We know that all monsters DO have 1 healing surge at least, most can't use it so why not steal it. 3.) I believe they mentioned the Hexblade in R&C, so I could see it as a Shadow Defender. I really would like the hexblade to be a paragon path for the warlock. 4.) I'm hoping for the Assassin as the shadow striker, using shadow to move and strike from them. While the Ninja could be a good choice, they have a lot of cultural baggage, and they have a legacy of using Ki, so I know a lot of people hate it, but the Ninja could very well be a Ki class. The term assassin has a lot of baggage, in a similar way to ninja in my opinion. I don't mind a class that uses shadows to move around or something, just don't call it assassin or ninja. Especially since assassin has been used for a rogue paragon path.
#28 Steely_Dan Apr 02, 2009 6:44:40	The term assassin has a lot of baggage, in a similar way to ninja in my opinion. I don't mind a class that uses shadows to move around or something, just don't call it assassin or ninja. Especially since assassin has been used for a rogue paragon path. 4th Ed seems to be embracing the assassin action, what with that recent Dragon article and this "True Assassin" being mentioned. Assassin does not mean evil hired killer in 4th Ed D&D. Assassin/Avenger/Hassassin/Holy Slayer/Ninja etc. You know who is going to come swooping in here now that you've posted this…
#29 divinedragoonkain Apr 02, 2009 8:06:40	Mysteries? Umbras? How about... Blasphemies
#30 Steely_Dan Apr 02, 2009 8:16:51	Mysteries? That's what I'm speculating for shadow powers. -Ki = Techniques or maybe Stunts (a little Dragonfist action) -Psionic = Manifestations
#31 ZerothOfTheLaw Apr 02, 2009 9:14:04	Hmm, I've been thinking for awhile about a necromancer in a controller role, and what WotC would do to give it a unique schtick. And I think I have it. The necromancer has an undead servant, much like the beastmaster ranger or the shaman. This undead servant was stitched together out of dead parts. The two initial builds of the necromancer would either have ghosts and the like possessing the servant, giving it effects and abilities. The other build would maybe take more dead parts and customize the servant with new abilities, size, bones, etc, and then command it from afar. Like you take the bone of a giant, place it in the servant, and now as a daily utility, can make it grow in size for a turn, increasing its reach and damage. The necromancer would also get to in dailies summon undead minions out of the dead bodies around, with varying abilities. Like minions that blow up when missed and pass on virulent diseases and the like. And then of course, a bunch of necrotic powers with riders. But the main schtick would be to have servants/minions whose presence offers very nasty, undesirable riders/threats and so on, thus by moving them, you can control the battlefield, by forcing effects onto the enemies, making them move away, and so on.
#32 hellgrammite00 Apr 02, 2009 18:53:50	Mysteries sounds okay....but it has been done. I guess it will get reused, but I wish we could come up with something better. Mysteries has a deliberate ooooooh into it.
#33 Belorin Apr 02, 2009 23:56:33	I'm beginning to think that Shadow may not have a leader class. Necromancer just doesn't seem to inspire much, unless it debuffs the enemy with things like Vampiric Draw, where the Necr. draws hp from the enemy and gives it to an ally. Bel
#34 ausolion Apr 03, 2009 0:24:01	A shadow leader could hide his allows in the shadows, make their movements difficult to detect and add necrotic damage. They could make a pall of shadow that blinds the enemy and not your allies. It would be heresy not to include a shadow leader....though I agree it could be difficult to work in a reason for healing in shadow.... Slaving Word: "You tell your allies to stop sucking ***** and get the %^&* up!" Ally can spend a healing surge and is ****** off(gains temp hp) I don't know, lol
#35 Authw8 Apr 04, 2009 23:48:16	"You point a finger at your friend, and he winces in pain as his wounds rapidly knit, leaving unnatural-looking scars where before there had been deep gashes." Shadow healing sounds awesome to me.
#36 zeratulcraft Apr 05, 2009 0:32:52	Don't forget replacing wounded flesh with unnaturally strong undead flesh.
#37 Marandahir Apr 05, 2009 1:27:50	I agree; I highly doubt a Shadow leader, at least not in the PHBs. Maybe a Shadow Leader will show up in a Campaign Setting that has shadowy-elements: the class could possibly be a Witch (a la Shadar-kai Witches). Here's my current guesses for Shadow: But Necromancer seems to fit right in with the controllers, having at least one build focus on summoning (though summoning undead and conjuring necrotic forces). This build could end up even invoking the concept behind the awe-inspiring Flesh Cults from Open Grave. The other build could have a minor in leader, and have some healing (or at least giving temporary hit points by imbuing characters with false life) in addition to maintaining a necrotic control over the battlefield with heavy mysteries. They'll be controllers with either leader [minor buffs] (Con/Wis) or defender [minions soak up damage] (Con/Int) leanings. Hexblade/Darkblade/Duskblade seems to lean to Duskblade the most for me; this would allow the Fey races to have a thematic "in" for the Shadow Power Source, and show that the Power Source doesn't necessarily NEED to be bound to the Shadowfell. Duskblades could draw their shadowy powers from the Twilight of the Feywild (Dex/Int) or the gloaming of the Underdark (Dex/Cha). Of course, the dusk-light is also the lighting in the Shadowfell, and a Dex/Int build would be awesome for Shadar-kai too. This would be a Shadow Defender that isn't focused on Strength or Constitution, but instead uses Dexterity to avoid and lessen damage taken (because HP =/= life force; HP = luck, skill, morale, endurance). They would be the least bulky of the Defenders, but it would be an extremely original defender, I'd say. They would use illusions born of the twilit minds and dark glamour to aid in their ability to evade and resist damage, while forcing their opponents to target them with a mark-like ability. They'll be defenders, but with either striker [twilit minds] (Dex/Int) or controller [dark glamour] (Dex/Cha) leanings. Assassin/Ninja/Shadow Dancer will be the striker, and it's anyone's guess which it will be called. But whatever they are, they are the "True Assassins" mentioned in The Art of the Kill. And they will utilise illusion mysteries such as One Thousand Faces or Hiding in Plain Sight and others to lurk in the shadows and avoid damage altogether while dealing the killing blow for massive damage. The two builds could be a more traditional master-of-shadows-assassin (Wis/Dex), and a more spy-like ninja (Cha/Dex). I can see them instead of using the Dexterity as a primary attacking power, they draw their attacks from their self-awareness and insight (Wis-Assassin), or from their persuasiveness and lies (Cha-Spy). Dexterity would be of key importance of both builds, in order for their incredibly high reflex defences and their agility and movement. The Assassin/Ninja/Shadow Dancer would have some necrotic powers of enfeeblement as well, weakening, slowing, and poisoning their targets with after affects as well, granting some controller effects. They will be strikers, but with significant controller leanings. Illusionist/Shadowcaster/Beguiler sounds probably the best as the Beguiler, after the 3.5e PHB2 class (like our usage of Duskblade). Beguiler will be a second controller, with some striker and leader leanings. Beguiler focusing on the cunning aspect of the bard or rogue and takes it to the extreme to be a master of lies and illusions. One build could focus on pummelling the mind of their enemies, breaking them from within with their illusions and deceptions, thus having significant ranged striker leanings. The other build could actually even lie and convince the party that they're stronger and faster than they actually are, or perhaps put up illusionary fences to lock enemies in place, while sliding and pushing (by breaking their will) other enemies around the field to group them altogether to control the battlefield, and thus having some leadership abilities as well (like some cunning bard and shaman powers). The mindcrusher would probably be Cha/Wis, while the Illusion-Fencer would be Cha/Int. What we get here is a series of classes that are totally devoid of strength, and lean heavily upon the "mental" ability scores of Int, Wis, and Cha. Charisma seems a given with the illusions, but Wisdom and Intelligence bear some purpose with the manipulation of death and shadows. Controller seems to be a theme here, which is very nice, considering the lack of Controllers elsewhere (only 3 controllers over the first four power sources, as opposed to six strikers and five leaders). The lack of a leader class is somewhat sad, but the two controllers both have builds with leader leanings to make up for it. Also, the poisoning/defiling nature of the shadow power source seems to be less of a leader-oriented source. Controllers and Strikers seem to dominate the fray.
#38 Duskweaver Apr 05, 2009 2:19:25	I have just (as in literally right this minute) thought of a possible shadow leader class that doesn't require the other player characters to suffer the moral outrage of being healed through necromancy: The Dreamweaver. If anyone has read Trudi Canavan's Age of the Five trilogy, dreamweavers heal people both physically and psychologically through manipulating their dreams and their subconscious minds. Some of them are also inspirational leaders (though at the time of the novels they are a persecuted minority and their leaders are all dead or in hiding - including hiding from themselves with constructed personae and memories). In D&D terms, this could be a manipulation of the 'shadow-selves' or 'dream-selves' of their allies. The dreamweaver sews up the wounds in your shadow and that healing transfers to your physical form. Or he steps into your dreaming mind and heals your wounds from there. He could also have some significant controller leanings by doing the opposite to enemies - making them attack each other rather than his allies or inflicting psychic damage by bringing their subconscious fears to the surface as waking nightmares. Canavan's dreamweavers also don't get along with gods and their worshippers at all well, which could be a nice fluff twist for the class. I can see a rivalry (friendly or otherwise) between the party's dreamweaver and cleric, just like the conflict between priests and dreamweavers in the novels. Another twist (and one reason for their conflict with the gods in the novels) is that a sufficiently powerful dreamweaver becomes so good at healing that they are effectively immortal, being able to rewind their own aging process at will. That nicely leads into a paragon path and epic destiny exclusive to the class, as well as giving the Raven Queen (at least) a reason to dislike them (hence ready-made plot hooks!)
#39 Marandahir Apr 05, 2009 2:28:08	Damn... Duskweaver, you are one amazing person. This is EXACTLY the sort of class full of win I would play. And I love the name. I always wanted a Shadow-Weaver (Shadoweaver?) class, and you take my tiny mention of a possible illusionist who deceives their allies' into health into a real leader who has definite illusionary elements and yet deals with the Plane of Dreams as well as Shadow and delves into one of the most transformative realms of the mind out there. Congratulations, you just made my day (or night, I should say... that reminds me; I need to get dreaming soon). Thank you, thank you, thankyou THANK YOUUUUUUUU!!!!!! On an analysis note; I could see Dreamweavers serving the Raven Queen as well; she is the Goddess of Fate, and fate and dreams always seem to be somehow interconnected. Weaving also implies spiders (the Fate Weaver who bound the world together - see the Shaman), and it could tie it to Drow culture and the shadows of the Underdark as well. Oh, and now I'm going to make a character in my stories who is something of a Dreamweaver, because you've SO inspired me that I'm bursting with aesthetical joy and awe right now.