Castle Ravenloft is great. Hope there will be add-ons with minis, tiles, cards, and adventures.
If collectible minis come to an end (and please, please don't) because of the cost of having them painted, how about packs of unpainted minis in appropriate colors. Orcs, zombies in gray; goblins in yellow; lizardfolk in green; ghosts, air and water elementals in transparent plastic; etc. There could also be dungeon dressing (tables, chairs in brown, etc). This would have to bring the cost down and maybe make them profitable.
Last but not least, could we make D&D more available. Borders no longer carry minis and although Target and Graham Cracker Comics are listed on their store locator, they carry nothing (at least in my area). The local game store by me closed down and I used to look forward to buying several boosters each week. Things like Castle Ravenloft (and hopefully boosters for it) could be branded Hasbro if need be to get them on the shelves like Heroscape. Come on salesman, do your job and get stuff on the shelves (at least in comic book stores).
For miniatures, the era is one of tokens now. Minis and especially painted ones are going. Lord of Madness is said to be the last collection to be produced by WoTC as of now.
I hope they don't stop here but....
I just hope......
;;;;
I hope they continue produce 4E books like: PHBs, MMs, Power Books, Campaign Setting, Location Supplement Accessory (Nentir Gazzeteer anyone ?), more adventures Painted Miniatures and continue work and release Articles like Class Acts, Winning Races, Essential Classes Articles (Seeker, RunePriest Monk etc..) that won't be like October's Winning Races: Essential Elf but in direct support of pre-Essential materials.
What WE want is:
PHB 4
MM 4
DMG 3-4
Martial 3
Arcane Power 2-3
Divine Power 2-3
Primal Power 2-3
Psiionic Power 2-3
More Adventures. More Locations Supplements. Some 20 Products or so that still address what made us thrive for this saga. The Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition's Innovation is called back forth.
All this along with Essential stuff if Wizards want it to be......
That's what we want...Probably not enought profitable for them to be worth the investment some would say but...
Oh sorry, what was the question again ?
(I was talking to myself over October's calender LOL)Ditto except for the Dungeon Master's Guides. 1 or 2 or those is about all I can absorb and use.
I'd rather atleast one more DMG to properly tackle Epic tier. Right now most of its support is just epic destinies.
I don't know if I'd personally want a DMG 3. What I *would* like is some sort of article for monster templates based on the PHB 3 classes.
The wizard class is awesome: you gain an encounter cantrip, Suggestion, and gain Magic Missile as a class feature. You also gain TWO encounter spells at 1st level, just like daily spells in standard 4E. You can still only have one encounter spell prepared per day, but you now can switch. Supreme versatility! It also makes the Tome of Readiness especially useful. I would also allow the Expanded Spellbook feat to allow a third encounter spell to be added, same as gaining daily and utility powers.
The cleric doesn't seem to have changed much, apart from having to choose a domain, and gaining more Channel Divinity powers instead of encounter attack powers. While such are useful, I think I'd give the option of gaining an encounter attack power instead of an additional Channel Divinity power. Also, most of the gods have control over more than one domain, and I hope that future releases of Essentials will reflect that.
When I started this thread, I didn't mean for it to be an Essentials/ Old 4E argument, I meant I liked the size and price of the books. I was looking for new ideas that might be profitable and keep our game going.
I don't know if I'd personally want a DMG 3. What I *would* like is some sort of article for monster templates based on the PHB 3 classes.
...someone should submit that to Dungeon. In fact, it could be a community effort!
I can only hope that the Warlord and other martial types will be the same.
For the love of the gods man, what are you smoking? Warlord is the coolest thing to come from 4.0, do not essentialize it. :nonono:
The Warlord has generally been concluded to have been excluded from Essentials because it cannot function under the Essentials style of Martial classes. It requires the power structure to really work properly. Fortunately, Essentials is not "every 4e publicaton from now until the end of time", and, after the end of the Essentials run - HotFK being the second and final players' options book in the line, and not containing a Warlord build - there might be more stuff for the earlier style Warlord. Or maybe something similar to the Warpriest.
They could, I suppose, appeal to Tome of Battle fans and make a Warlord that's basically a White Raven Adept, with "maneuvers" that impact the other members of the party, helping or enabling them to do things. But as Leader powers are more conditional, they don't fit into the "Stance-MBA" structure very well. They'd have to do something different. Could work out well, but, meh.
That is the one thing Essentials has really added to the system: The design space is a lot more open, there's a lot more that can be done. People may not like everything that's going to be done with that freedom, however, things are liable to come out of it that are rally qute good. The options that open up by having a class able to gain features over levels does open up quite a bit - and can be done without locking out standard power progression, as the Warpriest demonstrates.
The Warlord has generally been concluded to have been excluded from Essentials because it cannot function under the Essentials style of Martial classes. It requires the power structure to really work properly.
More like it wasn't essentialized in the essentials product line because there was no 3.X warlord class(not including the marshal) to base it off of.
Fortunately, Essentials is not "every 4e publicaton from now until the end of time", and, after the end of the Essentials run - HotFK being the second and final players' options book in the line, and not containing a Warlord build - there might be more stuff for the earlier style Warlord. Or maybe something similar to the Warpriest.
Perhaps essentials isn't every product going forward, but every class is going to be an essentials style class going forward(well at least until around 18 months after the next major staff shake up).
That is the one thing Essentials has really added to the system: The design space is a lot more open, there's a lot more that can be done. People may not like everything that's going to be done with that freedom, however, things are liable to come out of it that are rally qute good. The options that open up by having a class able to gain features over levels does open up quite a bit - and can be done without locking out standard power progression, as the Warpriest demonstrates.
Opening up design space does not make a better product bydefault. If the space you are opening up is taken up by bad design then opening up the design space makes things worse. Essentials style classes do not add anything new to the game that could not have been achieved with the original class design space.
The Warlord has generally been concluded to have been excluded from Essentials because it cannot function under the Essentials style of Martial classes. It requires the power structure to really work properly.
More like it wasn't essentialized in the essentials product line because there was no 3.X warlord class(not including the marshal) to base it off of.
There's an alternate theory, sure, but it relies on the idea that there was nothing warlord-like in 3.x, which isn't true. You meantion the Marshal yourself, and some of the Tome of Battle material is directly referenced in name by options available to the Warlord. If they wanted an Essentials Warlord, there's absolutely nothing to keep them from creating a Marshal build. But they didn't, which suggests a concious decison to exclude what may be the game's single most popular leader. I find your conclusion extremely difficult to accept.
Fortunately, Essentials is not "every 4e publicaton from now until the end of time", and, after the end of the Essentials run - HotFK being the second and final players' options book in the line, and not containing a Warlord build - there might be more stuff for the earlier style Warlord. Or maybe something similar to the Warpriest.
Perhaps essentials isn't every product going forward, but every class is going to be an essentials style class going forward(well at least until around 18 months after the next major staff shake up).
What does that even MEAN outside of "class features can now be gained/improved over levels", which removes the need for tax feats to offer that, which is GOOD by any measure?
That is the one thing Essentials has really added to the system: The design space is a lot more open, there's a lot more that can be done. People may not like everything that's going to be done with that freedom, however, things are liable to come out of it that are rally qute good. The options that open up by having a class able to gain features over levels does open up quite a bit - and can be done without locking out standard power progression, as the Warpriest demonstrates.
Opening up design space does not make a better product bydefault. If the space you are opening up is taken up by bad design then opening up the design space makes things worse. Essentials style classes do not add anything new to the game that could not have been achieved with the original class design space.
My main point, really, is that not everything is going to appeal to everyone's standard of good.
And, I've got to ask: How is scaling class features bad? Most people's issues, really, seem to go to the heart of what the Essentials line is about, and they turn their attention on the way classes are presented as a scapegoat. A lot of people, in particular those who didn't like such things as Tome of Battle in 3.X, might not like the idea of complex Martial classes with as broad a toolkit as casters - at least not at first. What's wrong with offering something that appeals to them (other than the question of whether or not it would actually pull anyone in) in a product that's specifically designed to do exactly that? Essentials is a purpose-designed short-span line, and somehow people are assuming that purpose will carry through from now on into every other product. I can't possibly be the only one seeing the logical gap there?
(For reference, "this will inform our design going forward" isn't the same as "everything from now on will be built to the same purpose", though I don't think that needs to be said.)
It may be petty, but that's the way I see it.
Even when they can multi-class I'd prefer the martial characters to have the complex tool kits. I like fighters having burst attacks, ongoing damage, and powers that vary depending on your weapon choice.
A lot of people, in particular those who didn't like such things as Tome of Battle in 3.X, might not like the idea of complex Martial classes with as broad a toolkit as casters - at least not at first.
That book was a waste of ink. Sort of like the essentials classes.
The irony being that the Essentials classes are akin to the traditional 3.x melee classes (albeit substantially less boring), while the Tome of Battle classes are akin to those same classes in 4e.
No box sets ! ! !
Thanks.
It still is an odd way to do this though.
If they ever did an elemental power source or when primal power 2 eventually makes its way back, a Lizardfolk race write up. (That could be thrown into the back of a Monster Manual book though).
A Druid build that does not rely on Wild Shape. I know this is the Druids schtick and I really do like that given the Shaman, but still The Druid does have alot of fun spells and summons that could benifit more from a solid build option.
I am still and will always be after a 4th ed treatment for Saurials, and more draconic paragon paths and Epic Destinies.
Heres to hoping.
My gripe with essentials is very different from others, it resides solely on the book format.
I actually liked the content of HotFL but could not convince myself to buy the book because of its small size, soft cover, and page layout.
What I see about future product on Amazon gives me hope but we never know as these are not the final product pictures.
My hopes are that the new books post-essentials will be hardcovers.
My gripe with essentials is very different from others, it resides solely on the book format.
I actually liked the content of HotFL but could not convince myself to buy the book because of its small size, soft cover, and page layout.
What I see about future product on Amazon gives me hope but we never know as these are not the final product pictures.
I agree. I'm honestly not that fond of essentials for a variety of reasons, but I will openly admit that I do judge a book by it's cover (and format). I would like the Essentials books more if they were not at least not digest size the soft cover I can deal with but at least make the book a normal size to fit with the majority of my other gaming materials.
I love 4E and I have been a DnD player avidly since 2E and I think DnD has improved with every edition, but if all these books Heroes of Shadow, Heroes Compendium, etc are all going to be published in Essentials format then I really don't know about buying them. For example, I am still really torn on if I want Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms. This is the first time that I can remember about not being excited about a DnD release coming out. No wonder Pathfinder is gaining ground.
At any rate, hopefully like others have speculated the Essentials format is just a phase while essentials is being pushed and sometime in 2011 WOTC will go back to business as usual.
Peace,
Fallstorm
Apart from the Minis continuity, all your dream will come true i think. Essential look like it inspire a whole new steer at WoTC. Dragon, Dungeon, LFR, D&D Encounter all being Essentialized more or less etc...For the book format and price, i think it will be subject to changes.
For miniatures, the era is one of tokens now. Minis and especially painted ones are going. Lord of Madness is said to be the last collection to be produced by WoTC as of now.
I hope they don't stop here but....
I just hope......
;;;;
I hope they continue produce 4E books like: PHBs, MMs, Power Books, Campaign Setting, Location Supplement Accessory (Nentir Gazzeteer anyone ?), more adventures Painted Miniatures and continue work and release Articles like Class Acts, Winning Races, Essential Classes Articles (Seeker, RunePriest Monk etc..) that won't be like October's Winning Races: Essential Elf but in direct support of pre-Essential materials.
What WE want is:
PHB 4
MM 4
DMG 3-4
Martial 3
Arcane Power 2-3
Divine Power 2-3
Primal Power 2-3
Psiionic Power 2-3
More Adventures. More Locations Supplements. Some 20 Products or so that still address what made us thrive for this saga. The Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition's Innovation is called back forth.
All this along with Essential stuff if Wizards want it to be......
That's what we want...Probably not enought profitable for them to be worth the investment some would say but...
Oh sorry, what was the question again ? (I was talking to myself over October's calender LOL)
PHB 4
What exactly do you think the games needs in this?
MM 4
MM 3 sucked so much in my opinion, I have even passed on a freebie pdf option.
It was nice they did the stat blocks more user friendly, but the content was not worth the paper.
DMG 3-4
I have yet to find any real need for anything past the first DMG
Martial 3
Arcane Power 2-3
Divine Power 2-3
Primal Power 2-3
Psiionic Power 2-3
Any book with the word Power on it is of zero worth to anyone with a DDI sub, and anyone that can affored these books could just as easily have a DDI account.
I realized how utterly pointless Martial Power 1 was the moment I started using the Character Builder.
Now what I would really kill for, is a Dungeon Delve released with Adventures specifically planned for DMs with 1 player able and willing to play 2 PCs or DMs who only have 2 players. Because there are lots of us out there under those conditions. And if you think making encounters is easy for 2 PCs give it a try
PHB 4
What exactly do you think the games needs in this?
MM 4
MM 3 sucked so much in my opinion, I have even passed on a freebie pdf option.
It was nice they did the stat blocks more user friendly, but the content was not worth the paper.
DMG 3-4
I have yet to find any real need for anything past the first DMG
Martial 3
Arcane Power 2-3
Divine Power 2-3
Primal Power 2-3
Psiionic Power 2-3
Any book with the word Power on it is of zero worth to anyone with a DDI sub, and anyone that can affored these books could just as easily have a DDI account.
I realized how utterly pointless Martial Power 1 was the moment I started using the Character Builder.
Now what I would really kill for, is a Dungeon Delve released with Adventures specifically planned for DMs with 1 player able and willing to play 2 PCs or DMs who only have 2 players. Because there are lots of us out there under those conditions. And if you think making encounters is easy for 2 PCs give it a try
Just my 2 cents, as antiquated as it may sound the game needs these things because people still like actual books and not just all their information on a computer. This is why there is a DnD (and other RPG) section of games in the bookstores because they do sell enough to warrant their own section, and their online book sales are respectable. Additionally, some people may not be DnD Insider subscribers or some people like myself maybe DnD Insider subscribers and happen to purchase the books as well when they come out because I don't want to wait for the DDI update and because I also like to have an actual physical product and can study the options better by book and then build via computer, etc.
PHB 4- I was really looking forward to because I wanted to see expanded roles for Shadow based characters as well as additional builds for other classes all put together in a nice hardcover book.
The power books I absolutely loved them and they tend to be strong sellers role-playing wise so again people are buying them.
The DMG XX I kind of agree with you on. DMG 2 I did feel had some useful things in there but in all honesty I thought those could have been put in the DMG 1 there was definately room. As far the MMs I'm torn on that. I don't really DM but my DM loves additional monster manuals because he can throw stuff at us that we aren't familiar with.
A Dungeon Delve book could be good to like you said. The few times I have DM'd for our game, because the DM's schedule didn't permit I just picked a plug'n'play scenario from Dungeon Delve and it worked out good, but in all honesty could DDI feel this role as well? I mean there seems to be enough adventures in Dungeon to run a scenario or delve, or campaign for that matter.
Peace,
Fallstorm
I think everyone's forgetting about the economy. If Wizards can't make a profit, the D&D line will be dropped without a thought to the future. Like it or not, these days I think many more people will buy a book for $20 than for $29 or $39.
I understand the economy is bad, but I really don't think it should effect rpgs as much as it does other hobbies. RPGs are one of the cheapest hobbies you can have. Compare the cost of being an avid table top RPG gamer to the cost of someone who really likes to go clubbing or someone who is into golf or into clothes, etc. on all fronts gaming comes out pretty cheap in comparison. Even so, like I said I would be willing to live with a soft cover book but the digest size I just find plain irksome.
Peace,
Fallstorm
I think everyone's forgetting about the economy. If Wizards can't make a profit, the D&D line will be dropped without a thought to the future. Like it or not, these days I think many more people will buy a book for $20 than for $29 or $39.
I'll be blunt and to the point, I don't exist to make it possible for companies to exist.
I only buy products I actually need.
I don't buy products just because they wear a specific brand label either.
I DO like actual books over pdfs, but, I don't think books need to be produced just to produce books.
It's why I think the Powers books are pointless. Everything offered in them, is easier to arrive at through the PC Generator, and the argument a book is better is simply not going to make pointless fluff worth the price. Especially when the cost of one book is equal to a DDI account and more.
Sure not everyone has a laptop handy. But it's a stretch a person can claim that have no one with one present and no one with a PC handy and no way to arrive at one at all and no option to just go online briefly to get access to the account long enough to make use of the PC Generator.
It's the 21st century.
I think over all, they miiiiiiight be able to squeeze out a few Power books maaaaaaybe as methods to inject new interest in the game maaaaaaybe after the last book becomes a year or more old.
But scores of books every year? No I'm not someone's cash cow.
Maybe if Wizards took muuuuuch loooonger to actually work on their books, their errata sections on the forums here would have alot less content too.
I finally saw the core three for the Pathfinder books the other day. No I am not planning to get them. It's still 3.5 just another company's opinion of how to do it. But I did make one valid observation.
It looked like all that was 3.5, but a lot fewer books to do 3.5.
In other words, a 3.5 fan likely would be better served with Pathfinder, than with actual 3.5.
I dare say, I think Essentials could have done the same for 4.0.
Redo the whole 3 Players books, with just one book, and not as yet more books. We all know, that not all of the 3 Players Handbooks is considered equally worthy. Hindsight tells us some content from Players Handbooks 1 and 2 really never cut the mustard with enough of us. There are classes in them I never see players picking for a reason.
I don't need more core in the product, I only want to see more support for the core in the product.
Dungeon Delve for 2 PCs
Dungeon Delve the City edition for rogue campaigns.
Dungeon Delve Solo for guys that have zero players that night.
Dungeon Delve the Dwarven campaign featuring nothing but adventures for Dwarves for instance.
It's not like Wizards can't sell good ideas, it's that Wizards is lacking in people that can come up with good ideas. And they have no decent editors too.
It took me 20 seconds to make the above 4 product ideas up eh.
I sometimes think I should just write my own damn products. Pity I don't have a massive entity like Hasbro behind me.