In the podcast on the 2010 line as a whole (Could someone link that? I haven't been able to find it since I first listened to it.) the developers mention that Player Essentials: Heroes of the Fallen Lands is the book that players graduate to from the new red box. That worries me. Heroes of the Fallen Lands is basically a complete player's handbook. Combined with the red box it presumably gives the owner all the rules for 4th edition that are included in the original Player's Handbook, with fewer classes and races but more options for each. Throw in its sequel Player Essentials: Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, together only $5 retail more than the original Player's Handbook, and you have more than a complete player's handbook. What's more, this new "player's handbook" benefits from two years of experience and tweaking. No useless at-will powers ala Careful Attack. All errata neatly included.
Next comes the Dungeon Master's Kit, which no doubt includes all the mechanical information and much of the same advice and fluff in the original Dungeon Master's Guide. Of course the book isn't hardcover, but when you buy it (for just $5 more than the original DMG) you get adventures, a DM screen, tokens, and battle maps included too. And of course, all the mechanics and advice in the book benefit from 2 years of refined experience and errata.
Finally comes the Monster Vault, which seems to me to be the clearest example of a "new core rulebook" yet. It's all the iconic monster concepts, as in, the ones that are overwhelmingly found in the original Monster Manual. But all the statblocks benefit from 2 years of refined, rebalanced monster design; all the solos and minions will work great. It's not hardcover (presumably), but it comes with an adventure and lots of tokens, all for $5 less than the original MM.
So, when do new players who start with the new Red Box and then invest in the essentials line graduate to the true core rulebooks? As far as I can tell, they don't. The developers in the podcast certainly don't mention players graduating from the Essentials line to the true core rulebooks. They already have the full 4th edition game mechanics, all in neatly revised and re-presented format and for cheaper than the true core rulebooks. If they want the powers and other player options in the original PH, a subscription to DDI (or a one month subscription every half a year to update the character builder) is a much better choice than actually buying the core books.
I don't at all mean to accuse Wizards of doing something underhanded. But it worries me that if the new red box and the Essentials line are successful and function as intended, we'll be looking at a game with two different sets of core rulebooks. Most players will have the originals, while brand new players will have the new ones. And surely the new ones will be better?
When these are released, all people will be doing is playing D&D 4e with expanded options, not an entirely new game.
And as for the MM, I don't see how them learning from older mistakes and revising stat blocks means the game itself is changing. Is it really not 4e if a White Dragon gets a new power?
I apologize if I'm completely misreading your points, but it seems to me that you're worried because Wizards is giving people more options in their games, while not changing anything core about them game.
And the Essentials Line just looks like an alternative (lower cost) gateway into D&D. Why is this a bad thing? People will start with the Essentials line, and when they realize they want more options, they'll either go buy the other books (Core or supplement), or get a D&DI subscription. The updated rules come out go on D&DI, so anyone can have them. We get a constant flow of new content, more people play D&D, and Wizards gets new paying customers. It's a win-win-win. I fully expect that the time will come when 4e needs a reprint and it will simply be a matter of re-releasing things with corrected rules. Those won't be "new rules," because they'll be all ones we've seen already, but it would be stupid not to revise at least the initial books (like PHB/DMG/MM 1) when the time comes to do a new print run.
Personally, I'm all for any ongoing revenue stream that prolongs WotC's need to make a new edition. If they were making $100/year off of every player, the revenue for D&D would be pretty set. WotC would keep making new stuff, the game would keep improving, and 5th Edition won't come out for years.
Personally, I hope the Essentials line really takes off. In a sense, they're going back to the Golden Age of D&D (early '80s), but with the "intro" rules actually being rules for the same game. It's a great concept that's been a long time in coming.
I may have been unclear in my original post. I wasn't complaining about the Rules Compendium, which I have no problem with; I was just mentioning the heated thread on it in this forum as a segue into my post. And I certainly didn't mean to claim that Wizards is publishing a whole new game; they clearly aren't. Someone who only has the Essentials will be able to play with someone who has the roiginal core rulebooks just fine.
The problem I'm worried about is that if the Essentials line is successful and new players do in fact start playing D&D using it, they'll end up with their own set of "core rulebooks," the Essentials line. It won't make sense for them ever to invest in the original core rulebooks, because the Essentials line effectively replaces the original core rulebooks for those that own the former. There's no sense in someone who has all the Essentials buying the core books; they could get all the player options they lack by subscribing to DDI for one month and downloading the character builder. So, in 4 years, will we see some groups who don't even have the core rulebooks because they have the new and much improved Essentials books?
I admit that there is some element of selfish complaint in my post; I do look at the Essentials line and think "would I have been better off just waiting two years and investing in these much superior 'core rulebooks'"? But that's probably unreasonable; after all, I can get all the player options and monsters in the Essentials line by simply subscribing to DDI, just like a new player with the Essentials line can get everything he needs from the actual core rulebooks via DDI. I certainly have no problem with Wizards publishing more player options and such in various kinds of splatbooks.
So, my main problem is that in 4 years we'll be looking at two sets of core rulebooks because new players who buy the Essentials line will never "graduate" to the true core rulebooks, as that would be a waste of money.
Next comes the Dungeon Master's Kit, which no doubt includes all the mechanical information and much of the same advice and fluff in the original Dungeon Master's Guide. Of course the book isn't hardcover, but when you buy it (for just $5 more than the original DMG) you get adventures, a DM screen, tokens, and battle maps included too. And of course, all the mechanics and advice in the book benefit from 2 years of refined experience and errata.
In short, it doesn't contain the same mechanical information. It contains much better mechanical information. For example, the Skill Challenge section doesn't remotely look like the Skill Challenge section in the DMG.
So, when do new players who start with the new Red Box and then invest in the essentials line graduate to the true core rulebooks?
I have a hard time thinking of anything with over 70 pages of erratta as "true core".
Ok, so new people have the red box, old people have hardcovers, some people have both. I don't see that very different from what I see today at the gamestore and conventions. Some people have some books. Some have lots of books. Some have DDI subscriptions. None of them seem to be playing the same game from table to table. It works anyway.
I wouldn't look at it as an insult to the veterans that new players get more bang for their buck. Wizards put out a great game with an entirely new set of mechanics, and they seem to have done a good deal of learning since then. It is a shame that the books we all bought back in the day will be put to the side, but if future players have to make less of an investment to enjoy the game, I can see only positives.
A few people have been crying "4.5!" because of the Rules Compendium, but I have to say, if I had a mind to accuse Wizards of producing a revised edition and putting out new core rulebooks, I'd be pointing fingers at the Essentials line.
In the podcast on the 2010 line as a whole (Could someone link that? I haven't been able to find it since I first listened to it.) the developers mention that Player Essentials: Heroes of the Fallen Lands is the book that players graduate to from the new red box. That worries me. Heroes of the Fallen Lands is basically a complete player's handbook. Combined with the red box it presumably gives the owner all the rules for 4th edition that are included in the original Player's Handbook, with fewer classes and races but more options for each. Throw in its sequel Player Essentials: Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, together only $5 retail more than the original Player's Handbook, and you have more than a complete player's handbook. What's more, this new "player's handbook" benefits from two years of experience and tweaking. No useless at-will powers ala Careful Attack. All errata neatly included.
My interpertation of the Essentials line was that new players would also have to pick up the Rules Compendium in addition to the Players Essentials: Heroes to have a "complete player's handbook". This is just from reading information, I haven't listened to the podcast.
www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4...
Is the first one the podcast you're looking for?
And how do you know we won't get at-wills such as Careful Attack? For all you know, we might be getting simple and bland at-wills that are less complicated for the newbies.
It's a mild concern, but it's the only concern I really have over the line. I doubt the rules will be 'new' they'll likely just be what we all already have (or a 'greatest hits' collection of what we all already have) with errata. The Rules Compendium in particular is mostly a way of them getting the 2 years+ of errata into print.
Why they don't issue 'revised' editions of the older books, I'll never get, but the Rules compendium will be easier to deal with, at least. Hopefully it's what it says on the Tin, FULL rules, not the rules spread across three books like they are now. Having a single easy reference to games rules will be invaluable to any player or DM, especially new ones.
Hey, if they manage to fix Divine Challenge in a meaningful way I might even pick up a book from the essentials line. (Hint: split it into a marking power that does a standard mark, and an immediate reaction punishment power without the "engage" cruft. Just give some bonus damage if the Paladin is adjacent to reward it if you're not a coward.)
There is only one part I don't get, and that is why book one includes fighter, ranger, rogue and wizard. Shouldn't that be cleric instead of ranger.
There is only one part I don't get, and that is why book one includes fighter, ranger, rogue and wizard. Shouldn't that be cleric instead of ranger.
Well as it is a beginners product they may be trying to avoid any religious controversies relating to people being offended by the idea of 'worshiping' fictional gods. A more likely reason might be that since the new basic set is designed to be a functional solo experience, WotC decided not to include a leader class even though the cleric/healer/whitemage is a fantasy RPG icon.
Still, ranger seems like an odd choice, and with no other supernatural classes the wizard kind of sticks out like a sore thumb.
Edit: of course this entire post is now mostly invalidated. That'll teach me to assume the person I'm responding to knows what they're talking about.
The rest of the essentials line seems catered to being a cheap entry into the game. Combine the free Quick-Start Tules + a $20 player handbook + dice and you're set.
The more expensive packages (DM Kit/Monster Vault) are things I probably would've at least considered buying if they were available when I started DMing.
The part that i don't like is that the same old classes are getting even more support when those books could be fleshing out things like the artificer, primal classes or psionics.
Who's to say that that's the end of the Essentials line?
Also, Druid gets a new option in the second Heroes expansion box.
The idea of the Essentials line is to go to the fundamental archetypal classes that have been around forever, the simplest concepts, and use them as the basis for welcoming in new players.
Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard are in the Red Box. This makes sense, since each is a member of the original archetypal roles (Fighting-Man, Thief, Spellcaster (Divine-focused) and Spellcaster (Arcane-focused). Each fulfills one of the party roles, so you could create a 4 person party with them.
The races: Human, Elf, Halfling, Dwarf. These are the fundamental Standard-fantasy races. It's no surprise that they are being shown as the introduction for new players.
With Heroes of the Fallen Lands, we return to Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, and Wizard, and we get to see the Ranger as well, the traditional "fifth-role" of having another striker, of a different type – melee for ranged rogues and ranged for melee rogues. We also look at Humans, Dwarves, Elves, and Haflings again, but we also look at Eladrin, whom convey one of the major important changes in 4e – the split between the nature-type Elves and the arcane-type Eladrin. I wouldn't be surprised if in these two books, we get a lot of publicity again for Tordek (Dwarf Fighter), Lidda (Hafling Rogue), Soveliss (Elf Ranger), Mialee (Eladrin Wizard), and Jozen (Human Cleric) again. This set would probably deal with the former citizens of Nerath.
With Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, we get to see more of the Cleric, the Ranger, as well as the Druid, the Paladin, and the Warlock. Introducing Warlocks, a popular 3.5e class, and one of the most iconic 4e classes now, is a good move to phase in at this point. The Paladin as well – the players have seen the Cleric twice already, and get to see it one more time along with the Paladin. The Ranger gets a little more love, and it's relationship with the Primal Druid, another returning favourite, which had a history but has since broken up with the Ranger, joins too. At this point, delving into the Primal world too much would make things complicated, but the Druid, most iconic of the Primal Classes, is a good way to start off. We get to see Dragonborn, Drow, Half-elves, Half-orcs, and Tieflings at this point too: we're looking at more of Arkhosia and Bael Turath, as well as other people on the fringes of Nerath – the third Elf type and Half-Human Hybrids.
All in all, it's a very good way to phase players into D&D. And the Essentials sets aren't primarily to provide new options for iconic classes, they're to get new players adjusted to core ideas of 4e, Points of Light, and D&D in general. The new builds in the two expansion sets are an added bonus to returning players.
I'm probably going to get all three, as well as the DM's Kit (and if the Compendium isn't included in that, I'll get the Compendium too…) as tools to teach new players, since I get a lot of people initially interested in the game who then become daunted with all the rulebooks and things they need to learn and know to play the game, despite the 4e simplication and streamlining from the 3.5e rules. These sets will allow me to teach the game better to new players. Also, I'll get to see more of the story of Nerath, Bael Turath, and Arkhosia, and the general world around and beyond the Nentir Vale and Points of Light.
Who's to say that that's the end of the Essentials line?
I swear i read one of the devs say that once the initial Essentials line is out it will be complete, they won't be adding to it, and they will be going back to the regular DnD line of releases.
Sure, its a good way to introduce new players, but the fact that the 2 expansion books are focusing on new builds to get veterans buy the product means that some of the most supported classes out there will be getting even more support.
Its not the end of the world or anything. Its just annoying.
The part that i don't like is that the same old classes are getting even more support when those books could be fleshing out things like the artificer, primal classes or psionics.
Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of being newbie friendly? The Primal and Psionic classes are more complicated than the classes in PHB1.
Who's to say that that's the end of the Essentials line?
I swear i read one of the devs say that once the initial Essentials line is out it will be complete, they won't be adding to it, and they will be going back to the regular DnD line of releases.
Sure, its a good way to introduce new players, but the fact that the 2 expansion books are focusing on new builds to get veterans buy the product means that some of the most supported classes out there will be getting even more support.
Its not the end of the world or anything. Its just annoying.
It's the same as martial classes having Martial Power 2 compared to the rest. And yeah, I read somewhere the essential lines are those 10 products. No point of making more, since the newbie is supposedly well experienced in 4e by that time, and no reason why he can't use the normal core books like the rest of us.
Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of being newbie friendly? The Primal and Psionic classes are more complicated than the classes in PHB1.
I was just saying that instead of putting out more new builds for well-supported classes, that page space could have been dedicated to classes that don't already have the lion's share of support.
It's the same as martial classes having Martial Power 2 compared to the rest. And yeah, I read somewhere the essential lines are those 10 products. No point of making more, since the newbie is supposedly well experienced in 4e by that time, and no reason why he can't use the normal core books like the rest of us.
The difference with Martial Power 2 is that they supposedly putting out Arcane Power 2, Divine Power 2, etc...while the essentials line only adds new material to a selection of relatively well-supported classes.
Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of being newbie friendly? The Primal and Psionic classes are more complicated than the classes in PHB1.
I was just saying that instead of putting out more new builds for well-supported classes, that page space could have been dedicated to classes that don't already have the lion's share of support.
It doesn't matter whether or not cleric, fighter, rogue, and wizard are the most supported classes. What matters is that they are the most iconic classes. The purpose of the Essentials line isn't to power up existing classes, it is to introduce new players to the game using most fundamental and basic archetypes. This is actually also the same reason why those classes already have more support to begin with, because they are simple enough to grasp with easy while also being versatile enough to expand to cover a wide variety of character concepts. Other classes don't necessarily need the same amount of support, because they represent a narrower niche.
It doesn't matter whether or not cleric, fighter, rogue, and wizard are the most supported classes. What matters is that they are the most iconic classes. The purpose of the Essentials line isn't to power up existing classes, it is to introduce new players to the game using most fundamental and basic archetypes. This is actually also the same reason why those classes already have more support to begin with, because they are simple enough to grasp with easy while also being versatile enough to expand to cover a wide variety of character concepts.
I get they are trying to present the most iconic classes as an intro to new players. I really do.
I just would have prefered they left that stuff to the actual red box and let the books full of new builds be for all the classes, not just the ones that already have all the toys.
Other classes don't necessarily need the same amount of support, because they represent a narrower niche.
I don't really get this rationale. The fighter deserves more options because its arguably more generic? The "brawler" build from MP2 is fine for the fighter, but doesn't work on the monk or barbarian because they are supposedly more niche?
It doesn't matter whether or not cleric, fighter, rogue, and wizard are the most supported classes. What matters is that they are the most iconic classes. The purpose of the Essentials line isn't to power up existing classes, it is to introduce new players to the game using most fundamental and basic archetypes. This is actually also the same reason why those classes already have more support to begin with, because they are simple enough to grasp with easy while also being versatile enough to expand to cover a wide variety of character concepts.
I get they are trying to present the most iconic classes as an intro to new players. I really do.
I just would have prefered they left that stuff to the actual red box and let the books full of new builds be for all the classes, not just the ones that already have all the toys.Other classes don't necessarily need the same amount of support, because they represent a narrower niche.
I don't really get this rationale. The fighter deserves more options because its arguably more generic? The "brawler" build from MP2 is fine for the fighter, but doesn't work on the monk or barbarian because they are supposedly more niche?
That came out wrong. The other classes aren't more niche, but they are less iconic, and more complicated to the mind of the new player.
And the second half of the essentials line isn't made for us, it's made for them, so they aren't going to include new builds for the shaman and warden and battlemind and artificer in there, because those are very complicated classes comparatively. They also exist in a less fundamentally archetypal location for the game. So the "books" full of new builds, which are actually expansions to the Red Box, shouldn't have new builds for Shamans and Battleminds, because those classes aren't aimed at the new players.
And the second half of the essentials line isn't made for us, it's made for them, so they aren't going to include new builds for the shaman and warden and battlemind and artificer in there, because those are very complicated classes comparatively. They also exist in a less fundamentally archetypal location for the game. So the "books" full of new builds, which are actually expansions to the Red Box, shouldn't have new builds for Shamans and Battleminds, because those classes aren't aimed at the new players.
If they really were only intended for new players, they wouldn't be full of new builds for veterans to use.
Even though the new build books are technically grouped in the "essentials" product line, they present new material, in effect making them a reformatted version of the Power books. Repackaging the old options in a way that appeals to new players is cool, but i find it unfortunate that they decided to put even more new material for the first classes in the game when those "release slots" could have belonged to Power books that support classes that actually need more books full of builds.
And the second half of the essentials line isn't made for us, it's made for them, so they aren't going to include new builds for the shaman and warden and battlemind and artificer in there, because those are very complicated classes comparatively. They also exist in a less fundamentally archetypal location for the game. So the "books" full of new builds, which are actually expansions to the Red Box, shouldn't have new builds for Shamans and Battleminds, because those classes aren't aimed at the new players.
If they really were only intended for new players, they wouldn't be full of new builds for veterans to use.
Even though the new build books are technically grouped in the "essentials" product line, they present new material, in effect making them a reformatted version of the Power books. Repackaging the old options in a way that appeals to new players is cool, but i find it unfortunate that they decided to put even more new material for the first classes in the game when those "release slots" could have belonged to Power books that support classes that actually need more books full of builds.
The new builds are new builds to add in addition to the ones in the Red Box. As an added bonus, they are new to veteran players as well. I don't see the problem.
Yes, we could have Power series books instead. But that doesn't help new players.
The new builds in the essential books should be in DDI as well, so you don't really have to buy them.
New builds and powers for existing classes means I will be buying them. I'm also curious to see the different spin on humans.
the new build are just a topping on the cake (and we have to see if they are "new" as in never before seen build, or "new" as in never before seen in the essential line)
the choice of class is almost perfect (the wizard is a tad too complex as an introductory class but it is so iconic that couldn't be kept out and there are no other arcane iconic classes to take the role of the mage)
I also expect that the classes in the red-box will be one build only
cleric, fighter, rogue, and wizard
I would bet on:
devoted cleric (pelor, bahamut or moradin)
guardian fighter
trickster rogue
war wizard (staff wizard seem more iconic)
all in all I am very happy of this essential line, I see myself gifting friends with the red box and myself with the entire lineup
Also, who's saying that those two "Heroes of" books will be the only ones?
Well, I could see them do a wand-wizard instead of the staff-wizard for all those harry pothead fanbois.
Also, who's saying that those two "Heroes of" books will be the only ones?
they said it
they said this is a line of 10 products that will always be in production (until obviously they do dnd 4th), this is also a move toward shop-owner (big and small) if you want to support dnd but you are not a commited rpg shop than you just take this products and you know that with this you have covered the game
this is the biggest point to have a box with the full game and a solo adventure means you can find it almost everywhere and start to play out of the box
I see the new builds are the same as those Class Essentials that are in Dragon Mag. Each of the class essentials focus on a particular build, so I suspect the Heroes of... books will be the same, just with the same theme (Fallen Land, Forgotten Land)
I think the Ampersand article should be made public, not only for DDI subscribers.
this is a very good idea
I think the Ampersand article should be made public, not only for DDI subscribers.
this is a very good idea
Please. grab it and post it here.
actually im forecasting the rebranding of 4th edition in this. instead of sourcebook after sourcebook this gives wizards the ability to reprint the same product and sell it differently. what if i just run heroic campaigns? i can buy the heroes box and cover all my bases. same for epic paragon etc. they dont have to reinvent the wheel and change editions just repackage the product. hardcore gamers will still buy each book that comes out but the more you can tailor to specific playing styles the more you can sell and grow the game. how we consume the game either insider sourcebooks or box sets doesnt matter as theyll all be rules compatable.
The problem is, what happens after they published all the products? They will still need to produce new expansions and supplements, which is no difference from the current model. Every rpg needs supplements, unless they decide to stop with new rules and mechanics and focus on fluff and adventures. Catering to specifics isn't going to bring much sales compared to a general product that can be used by everyone.
The model you are talking about is similar to the boxed sets of BECMI. Yeah, it would be cool to just have a Heroic tier PHB but it would pose a problem when introducing new classes. Also, reprinting a product that most people already have is bad. D&D has to go forward and evolve (new innovative mechanics like the psionic at-wills and themes) rather than stay stagnant. Hence, sourcebooks after sourcebooks.
Can anyone tell me what purpose the DnD Essentials line serves. Excuse me, but didn't 4e just come out in 2008 with a starter set and don't they have the basics for Down Load on the WOtC web site for all those wanting to try out the game to see if they like it? to me it seems redundant and unnecessary. However, I think the DM's kit will be nice and is long overdue, though I will have some reservations about a DM's screen - which again to me, was the best product they have ever released thus far for any version of DnD.
Can anyone tell me what purpose the DnD Essentials line serves. Excuse me, but didn't 4e just come out in 2008 with a starter set and don't they have the basics for Down Load on the WOtC web site for all those wanting to try out the game to see if they like it? to me it seems redundant and unnecessary. However, I think the DM's kit will be nice and is long overdue, though I will have some reservations about a DM's screen - which again to me, was the best product they have ever released thus far for any version of DnD.
The Essentials line consists of redbox, dungeon tiles, monster tokens, dice, DM kit, rules compendium with errata and 2 player books containing new builds. The redbox is basically a rewritten intro for completely new players that feature char gen, instead of pregens. That's basically it.
The Essentials line consists of redbox, dungeon tiles, monster tokens, dice, DM kit, rules compendium with errata and 2 player books containing new builds. The redbox is basically a rewritten intro for completely new players that feature char gen, instead of pregens. That's basically it.
That I understand, but to what end. It still seems redundant and unnecessary. Why create a whole line of products to introduce to new players, again? I mean they had all of that set in 2008 and the access to so much on the website if people really are that interested. New builds should be saved for other core product releases.
I can see if they decided to just produce compilations of all the essential rules to be handy for established players so they don't have to lug all the books with them everywhere they go (Like me) or who don't have the cool electronics to gain access on the go (like me); and they could have done that and stated "this would be good for new players as well"
It just seems silly.
It still seems redundant and unnecessary. Why create a whole line of products to introduce to new players, again? I mean they had all of that set in 2008 and the access to so much on the website if people really are that interested. New builds should be saved for other core product releases.
I can see if they decided to just produce compilations of all the essential rules to be handy for established players so they don't have to lug all the books with them everywhere they go (Like me) or who don't have the cool electronics to gain access on the go (like me); and they could have done that and stated "this would be good for new players as well"
It just seems silly.
The problem with the "Why not just keep using the introductory set they already have??" is that that starter isn't really very good. It's ok, but starting D&D can be really confusing if you don't have an experienced player teaching you what to do. This new boxed set (in theory) should be good at teaching the ENTIRE process to groups of newbies who don't have anyone to help them out. The the "Heroes" boxes will allow them to continue with their new characters, after they either go up to the PHBs etc and/or DDI to finish the process to Full "Player-hood."
I think this is a great idea.
And by putting new builds (that are likely really simple) means experienced players will still pick it up a little, and hopefully be inspired to teach D&D to kids/newbies.
That I understand, but to what end. It still seems redundant and unnecessary. Why create a whole line of products to introduce to new players, again? I mean they had all of that set in 2008 and the access to so much on the website if people really are that interested. New builds should be saved for other core product releases.
I can see if they decided to just produce compilations of all the essential rules to be handy for established players so they don't have to lug all the books with them everywhere they go (Like me) or who don't have the cool electronics to gain access on the go (like me); and they could have done that and stated "this would be good for new players as well"
It just seems silly.
I have the Starter Set which I bought for its tokens and extra dungeon tiles. It is essentially a "trial version" of D&D. In addition to its tokens, tiles, and dice, it has essentially the same rules that are in Keep on the Shadowfelll, 5 pre-gen PCs who can be advanced up to level 3 (no options), and an adventure. Unlike the old Red Box, because it lacks character creation rules, it is, in my opinion, NOT a complete game.
Just from a business perspective, the D&D game needs a single product that can be given to new players. That one product can be given as a gift, or picked up by someone who's interested, and will actually provide the entire "D&D experience." I think the staff at WotC (Bill Slaviscek in particular) wisely realized that D&D used to have a product very similar to that - the old "Red Box." Which worked well, except for a mistake TSR made that forced them to split their resources - D&D (for which the Red Box was the entry point) was a different game than AD&D. Fortunately, they were pretty compatible, but not the same, and TSR got trapped into making two games. Fortunately, WotC seems determined NOT to repeat that mistake, but clearly they recognize the value of a product like the old "Red Box" as an entry point to the game.
IMO, the ideal D&D entry product would be a somewhat stripped-down (i.e. fewer options), but complete version of the same rules that are in the hardcover rulebooks. Look at the original Red Box. It had a Basic Rulebook (with character creation and advancement rules up to Level 3, as well as the combat and adventuring rules), plus a Dungeon Master's Book (containing DMing advice, rules for encounter and adventure design and awarding XP, as well as monster statistics), an adventure, and dice. Do that today with a reduced options version of 4e, throw in character and monster tokens, and a few dungeon tiles and you have a complete low-level 4e game - in one box.
If you read the article, this sounds like largely what the new Red Box is. I could quibble that it should go up to Level 3 or even 5, or have more accessories, but whatever. From there, the DM's Kit expands the game (again, in an easy to acquire single product), as do the trade paperbacks. As long as the game is fully compatible with the hardcover rulebooks, the Essentials Line becomes an entry point into the game for new players. And from the article, these 10 products will ALWAYS be available. That may mean that the Fourth Edition of D&D will be its last. Going forward, new products will update the game, and new material will go on Insider but nothing fundamental about the game will change.
That would represent a sea-change to the business model of D&D. It may just be wishful thinking on my part, but I can make a pretty sound business case for it. Which Bill Slaviscek seems to agree with, if the Ampersand article is any indication, and he's the one guy at WotC we can be pretty sure, by all accounts, isn't going anywhere for a while.
And nothing about the Essentials Line invalidates the hardcovers - in fact, a hardcover D&D book would probably be a welcome addition to the collection of someone who only had the Essentials products. I remember I got the AD&D Monster Manual as my first supplement when I was still playing "Magenta Box" D&D. Subsequently, I picked up the PHB and DMG, and confidently made the switch to AD&D. And I never looked back.
Can anyone tell me what purpose the DnD Essentials line serves. Excuse me, but didn't 4e just come out in 2008 with a starter set and don't they have the basics for Down Load on the WOtC web site for all those wanting to try out the game to see if they like it? to me it seems redundant and unnecessary. However, I think the DM's kit will be nice and is long overdue, though I will have some reservations about a DM's screen - which again to me, was the best product they have ever released thus far for any version of DnD.
its a game in a box. it can be sold next to other games in toystores. if your on the website or checking out the rpg at the bookstore this product inst aimed at you. its about attracting new players and that means you want to penetrate markets you cant get the products your producing now into. so you rebrand and repackage these things for that market. same game different way to sell it.
And from the article, these 10 products will ALWAYS be available. That may mean that the Fourth Edition of D&D will be its last. Going forward, new products will update the game, and new material will go on Insider but nothing fundamental about the game will change.
Actually I am wondering what is the real meaning of "always be in stock"? It's not like any of the current books are out of print. Or were they making a comparison to the dungeon tiles which are OOP. Also, Bill mentioned that right after the Essentials are out, expanded game options and material will come as well. Now that interests me.
Actually I am wondering what is the real meaning of "always be in stock"? It's not like any of the current books are out of print. Or were they making a comparison to the dungeon tiles which are OOP. Also, Bill mentioned that right after the Essentials are out, expanded game options and material will come as well. Now that interests me.
What that means is in reference to the Dungeon tiles. They will always be kept in stock, and all future delves, maps, etc will use tiles from these essentials boxes.
Looking at the fall line-up, it is full of these essential products aimed at new players. You will get some new players picking it up. You will get some old players picking it up (as some simply must get everything). You will get some old players picking it up as gifts to give to new players. However, a lot of your regular players will sit it out, and simply glean whatever few new tidbits they need from the compendium and character builder.
I think, short term, fewer established players would pick up Heroes of the Fallen Lands than a Feywild or Domains of Dread book. I don't think that shortfall will be made up by brand new players right away. Long term, yes, I think so. And I think it is important to grow the fanbase. But short term, I think this will result in a drop during the 'essentials only' fall schedule (sept, oct, nov).
After dealing with parent companies, producer/developer company relationships, and so on, I just really hope that Hasbro is prepared for an 'irregularity' and doesn't start hitting any panic buttons.
Apparently a lot of details were still in flux in the weeks leading up to DDXP, so some outdated material was passed on. Either that, or the hue and cry afterwards caused WotC to change their minds. In either case, it appears that the new Red Box now contains character advancement rules up to Level 3.
As an aside, my brain says that if this is true (and there's no reason to doubt Mr. Ryan), they should just go all the way to Level 4. Given the relatively small amount that PCs get at Level 4, it wouldn't add much to the book. Consider that, at level 4, a PC:
1) Adds another +1/2 to all checks and defenses.
2) Gains 1 feat
3) Boosts two ability scores by 1 point
4) Gains a few more hit points
That's it. Which means that for the cost of, what, an extra line in one table and a few more feats per class, they have a starter game that includes the first FOUR levels. THAT would make this set a truly awesome intro to D&D. With one level more than the original Red Box, even the grognards would be impressed.
I thought it was supposed to be level 5.
I'll take a quick look.
"Dungeons & Dragons Fantasy Roleplaying Game
The Essential Dungeons & Dragons Starter
Beyond Essentials ...
My guess is that Mr. Slaviscek wrote his article based on their early plans, but that those plans were since changed, and he forgot to edit the February Ampersand.
As an aside, Mr. Ryan's blog also mentioned that apparently the first printing will use the trade dress from the original Mentzner Red Box practically unchanged (with just the WotC logo substituted for TSR's), but that the "retro-ish" version of the box shown at DDXP (and in the February Ampersand) will be used on the second and subsequent printings.
If that's true, WotC has practically guaranteed a sellout of the first print strictly as a collector's item due to its retro look. Which pretty much ensures a successful launch of the Essentials line - a smart strategy, IMHO.
Looking at the fall line-up, it is full of these essential products aimed at new players. You will get some new players picking it up. You will get some old players picking it up (as some simply must get everything). You will get some old players picking it up as gifts to give to new players. However, a lot of your regular players will sit it out, and simply glean whatever few new tidbits they need from the compendium and character builder.
I think you may get a decent number of players picking up the Rules Compendium so they don't have to keep track of errata in their PH. The Dungeon Tiles Master Sets could also draw old players who use tiles.
You could get some old players picking it up, ceasing to purchase any non-Essential products, and simply glean whatever few new tidbits they need from the compendium and character builder. I'm finding it a tempting option since, Tiles and dice aside, it's only $150 (if you pay full price). Only thing missing is Psionics.
As an aside, Mr. Ryan's blog also mentioned that apparently the first printing will use the trade dress from the original Mentzner Red Box practically unchanged (with just the WotC logo substituted for TSR's), but that the "retro-ish" version of the box shown at DDXP (and in the February Ampersand) will be used on the second and subsequent printings.
If that's true, WotC has practically guaranteed a sellout of the first print strictly as a collector's item due to its retro look. Which pretty much ensures a successful launch of the Essentials line - a smart strategy, IMHO.
That makes me want to buy two copies. One to use and one to sit on until prices go up and I can sell it to buy new D&D products.
Glad to hear it is 1st through 3rd and not just 1st and 2nd.
That makes me want to buy two copies. One to use and one to sit on until prices go up and I can sell it to buy new D&D products.
Glad to hear it is 1st through 3rd and not just 1st and 2nd.
Just as an aside, and not to get greedy, but if they're going through 3rd, it seems to me they could easily go just a bit higher. At 4th-level, a 4e character gets two ability bumps, +1 to checks, and 1 feat. That kinda levelling could be handled with 1 line in one table.
On the other hand, they'd probably want to publish a few more feats if they did that, and include some higher-level monsters and magic items. I guess that, plus tradition (the Mentzer Red Box only went to 3rd), is a very good reason to cap it where they did.
And frankly, as an experienced player, I know I will at least pick up the Starter Set (especially with the nostalgia cover), the Dungeon Tiles Master Sets, and the Compendium. Given the potential usefulness of the trade paperback size (and the new builds), I might also pick up the two "Heroes of" books as well. I'll make the call on the DM's Kit and the Monster Vault later.
Which would leave the dice as the only product I'm passing on. And I can always use more dice.
As an aside, my brain says that if this is true (and there's no reason to doubt Mr. Ryan), they should just go all the way to Level 4. Given the relatively small amount that PCs get at Level 4, it wouldn't add much to the book. Consider that, at level 4, a PC:
1) Adds another +1/2 to all checks and defenses.
2) Gains 1 feat
3) Boosts two ability scores by 1 point
4) Gains a few more hit points
That's it. Which means that for the cost of, what, an extra line in one table and a few more feats per class, they have a starter game that includes the first FOUR levels. THAT would make this set a truly awesome intro to D&D. With one level more than the original Red Box, even the grognards would be impressed.
THIS IS A GREAT IDEA! And you should feel great for suggesting it.
Also! What do we know about the Monster's Vault? All new stat blocks? Lots of stat blocks from the MM 1, but with tweaked minions and solos?
Nothing has been really said about it - I think it's mostly supposed to be "new" monsters - but a lot of those might just be fixed MM1 monsters (with slightly different names) put into the new monster format.
I'm sure we'll get a bunch of brand new Kobolds and goblins for example though - can never have enough of them!
ROFL @ WOTC
They made 4e totally dependant on minis,
then they jack up the price of the minis so people dont want to buy them,
so now they have to put out tons of tokens.
TOKENS SUCK
This is what it should be:
Dungeons & Dragons: One Box
Contents:
* Condensed paperback PLAYERS HANDBOOK (only levels 1-10; about 120 pages of the real PHB)
* Super-condensed DUNGEONMASTERS GUIDE + MONSTER MANUAL (one book)
* Dice
* 10 pages of cardstock dungeon tiles
* 10 pages of cardstock folding miniatures 
* A DM screen with "how to play" notes inside it
* And a CD rom with the character builder, encounter builder, a tile-mapper/dungeon-creator , and a 3 month free DDI trial.
====
Yea this would cost Fifty bucks but dammit this is the best damn game in the world. It deserves the royal treatment.
120 page PHB, plus condensed DMG and MM: easily $40.
Tiles: Easily $30.
DM screen: $15
Cardstock minis: $20+
CD + DDI trial: $40
What is that? $150? Yeah. That's why they're not doing that.
ROFL @ WOTC
They made 4e totally dependant on minis,
then they jack up the price of the minis so people dont want to buy them,
so now they have to put out tons of tokens.
TOKENS SUCK
This is what it should be:
Dungeons & Dragons: One Box
Contents:
* Condensed paperback PLAYERS HANDBOOK (only levels 1-10; about 120 pages of the real PHB)
* Super-condensed DUNGEONMASTERS GUIDE + MONSTER MANUAL (one book)
* Dice
* 10 pages of cardstock dungeon tiles
* 10 pages of cardstock folding miniatures
* A DM screen with "how to play" notes inside it
* And a CD rom with the character builder, encounter builder, a tile-mapper/dungeon-creator , and a 3 month free DDI trial.
====
Yea this would cost Fifty bucks but dammit this is the best damn game in the world. It deserves the royal treatment.
Wait; what?
4th edition is no more or less dependent on a battle grid than 3.5, and they're both dependent on a grid because it's simply not possible to create varied tactical combat without one.
WotC miniatures have hardly historically been overpriced. When I compare them to just about any other plastic miniatures box (or the Reaper website, or WoW minis), they are nearly always cheaper, matching up almost perfectly for their size and quality.
Wizards aren't "putting out" tokens; they're including them in the introductory set to keep the price down to a level that people brand new to PnP RPGs might consider paying.
Why are cardstock miniatures better than tokens? Aren't cardstock miniatures just tokens that stand up on end?
Your idea sounds like the Essentials line, except that instead of providing a low cost entry point and then several different products that people can use to expand their library slowly in whatever order they please, there's just one product that a new player would have to sink a ton of money into get started, and that an experienced player probably would not buy because it overlaps so much with his current library.
Finally, as JohnSnow pointed out, expecting to get all that for $50 is just unreasonable. Two books, a set of dice, 10 sheets of dungeon tiles, 10 pages of cardboard minis, a DM screen, three computer programs and a subscription to two magazines for 3 months, for $50? I can't imagine this product would ever make up its total cost.
* 10 pages of cardstock folding miniatures
Those are going to be as annoying for me to store as minis. Tokens store flat, these wouldn't. Being thin enough to fold, they'd be thin enough to crease if I didn't give them enough room when packing them away.
Depending on design, they could easily take at least twice as much space as tokens.
The only problem I've had with the tokens which came with the Starter Set is wanting to run an encounter with monsters on both sides of a token. They could solve this by giving us one monster per token (flip to indicate bloodied) or by printing high level monsters on the back of low level monsters so you probably wouldn't use them in the same encounter for the Monster Vault anyway.
Tiles: Easily $30.
Disagree. The DT Master Sets they're releasing are 10 tiles (+box) for $20.
A: a newbie player who joins a group of experienced players and wants to get rolling; or
B: Granny who is shopping in Wal-mart for a birthday present for 13-year-old timmy, when niether of them know squat about D&D ?
Person A will be told right away to just buy the PHB1. That leaves person B.
thats the the starter version of the game should be one box, not a whole line of "essential" products, just one.
That one product should be easy to learn without watering down the game, compelling enough to play multiple times untill you get addicted, and close enough to the full version to help people transfer over.
This essentials line feels like giving swimming lessons in a bathtub. You should at least use waist-deep water so someone is able to dunk thier head when they're ready to.
Who is more likely to buy the red box?
A: a newbie player who joins a group of experienced players and wants to get rolling; or
B: Granny who is shopping in Wal-mart for a birthday present for 13-year-old timmy, when niether of them know squat about D&D ?
Person A will be told right away to just buy the PHB1. That leaves person B.
thats the the starter version of the game should be one box, not a whole line of "essential" products, just one.
That one product should be easy to learn without watering down the game, compelling enough to play multiple times untill you get addicted, and close enough to the full version to help people transfer over.
This essentials line feels like giving swimming lessons in a bathtub. You should at least use waist-deep water so someone is able to dunk thier head when they're ready to.
I wouldn't point them to the PH. I'd explain to them the difference between the PH and the Rules Compendium, let them make their own choice. And I'd steal the DDI Subscriber's laptop so they could use the Character Builder.
Can you explain what is missing from the Red Box which prevents Timmy from playing it again and again until he gets addicted?
What about your proposed 10 level starter set would propel players to buy the "standard" D&D books? It may be missing Paragon and Epic tiers, but how would it prevent people from just playing dozens of Heroic tier games?
The Red Box might be the kiddy pool, but the Essentials line is a full-sized pool. It may not have diving boards or the water slide, but you'll be able to swim in it. And you'll be able to take those swiming lessons and be able to swim in the pool with the diving boards and water slide just the same.
The essentials line has filled out the second half of the 2010 publishing schedule. After they're finished with it, they plan on returning to the hardcover book lines.
Source?
One of the previews stated that the line consists of 10 products and the product guide lists all of them in the second half of 2010.
Who is more likely to buy the red box?
A: a newbie player who joins a group of experienced players and wants to get rolling; or
B: Granny who is shopping in Wal-mart for a birthday present for 13-year-old timmy, when niether of them know squat about D&D ?
Person A will be told right away to just buy the PHB1. That leaves person B.
thats the the starter version of the game should be one box, not a whole line of "essential" products, just one.
That one product should be easy to learn without watering down the game, compelling enough to play multiple times untill you get addicted, and close enough to the full version to help people transfer over.
This essentials line feels like giving swimming lessons in a bathtub. You should at least use waist-deep water so someone is able to dunk thier head when they're ready to.
Hold on; what?
Certainly a new player joining an established group is unlikely to buy the new red box, but granny shopping for a present for Timmy is way more likely to buy a compact $20 dollar game than a big old $50 boxed set, as is a group of teens who have heard of D&D and might like to try it, but don't want to sink a ton of money into it right off the bat.
One expensive, complex product as a stepping stone into the full game is a way worse idea than a number of stepping stones, starting with a stripped down version of the game that people can try without spending a ton of money. The swimming lesson analogy doesn't really work, as swimming lessons are not a game that you sample to see if you like it, and lessons in a large pool are likely no more expensive than baby lessons in a kiddie pool. But if I had to stay with the analogy, I would say that your idea is like giving a kid who has never swum before a lesson in a full sized pool and then graduating him to an olympic pool, while the Essentials line is like giving the kid lessons in a kiddie pool, then graduating him to the shallow end of the big pool, then to an area of the big pool in which he can still touch, then to the deep end, and then to the olympic size pool.
I have four other customers:
C: Johnny's dad sees the Starter Set at Barnes & Noble. He got into Dungeons & Dragons starting with the Red Box back in 1983, and while he has fond memories, he hasn't played since his college days. Maybe his son would like it too...
D: Little Drake is 12 years old, and he's at the bookstore with his mom browsing in the fantasy section. He's been reading Harry Potter books since he was little (8!), and he's looking to spend his allowance on something new. He asks his mom about the game, and she says: "oh yeah, me and your dad used to play that - it's a lot of fun." Hmmm...
E. Shelly is a manager at Starbucks. She and her single friends are big fantasy buffs and get together every Wednesday to play Lord of the Rings Online, but it's getting kinda old. She played D&D (as did her friends) when she was in junior high. She picked it up (the Mentzer Red Box again!) after reading the Dragonlance Chronicles, but she hasn't played in years. But maybe...
F. Val is another grandmother. But unlike Timmy and his grandma, she's heard of D&D. She was one of the "cool moms" who got it for her sons for Christmas back in 1983. Guess what she bought them? Yup, the Red Box. She remembers how much he played. Of course, her younger son doesn't play much anymore - he's too busy with his job at IBM. But, you know, his little boys are about that age now...
I know people like all of the above. There's lots of lapsed players out there. There's lots of former players with kids (or, dare I say it, grandkids!). There's moms who bought D&D stuff for their children, and now those children have children.
That old Red Box had DEEP penetration. Many former D&D players have moved on and/or had kids. They and their spawn are the target market for this line. $20 is a much more reasonable entry price to have everything you need to play. As I said before, the only other product you could possibly need to get going is DT Master Set 1. Both together are only slightly more costly than JUST buying a Player's Handbook (and way more useful if you're not joining an existing group).
The thing is: what happens AFTER people buy the Starter Set? Obviously, anyone who played AD&D would probably be biased towards the hardcovers. More casual players, or the BECMI crowd might prefer a different format, so the "Heroes of..." books should do okay. And honestly, with their combination of rules and gaming aids, the Monster Vault and DM's Kit sound like a pretty good value.
I think we can all agree that the DT Master Sets, Dice, and Rules Compendium will do fine, right?
On the other hand -- and I say this speaking as one who primarily plays Mentzer D&D -- the barrier that will likely keep these books from being my gateway drug into "core 4e" is precisely their complete 4e compatility. More Advanced than AD&D ever was. Inflated HP totals, drawn-out "push-me-pull-you" combats, and a character sheet that might as well be a W-2 form. It's all of those little things inherent in the system that turn a certain percentage of previous-generation gamers off of 4th edition, by a long shot farther than having tiefling warlocks present in the PHB ever could. It will be very, very interesting to see if this new Essentials red box manages to tempt the grognards by making the 4th edition rules comprehensible -- because at the moment, I percieve them as another language altogehter.
and you've got men, dwarves, hobbits, high elves, and wood elves) with none of the drek (read, tieflings and dragonborn) if you don't want to buy "Forgotten Kingdoms". I say that's brilliant.
Don't confuse personal bias with wider appeal to the audience. Sure, there are "purists" who prefer the Five Races, but for each of them exists at least one gamer who's had enough of these archetypes and wants to try something else. Also note that tieflings were introduced with the Planescape Campaign setting in 1994, and Dragonborn are even older, dating back all the way to the "dragonmen" of the Dragonlance setting, published 1984.
You can't blame the D&D newcomers for liking Tieflings and Dragonborn, both were in D&D already before they were born.
On the other hand -- and I say this speaking as one who primarily plays Mentzer D&D -- the barrier that will likely keep these books from being my gateway drug into "core 4e" is precisely their complete 4e compatility. More Advanced than AD&D ever was. Inflated HP totals, drawn-out "push-me-pull-you" combats, and a character sheet that might as well be a W-2 form. It's all of those little things inherent in the system that turn a certain percentage of previous-generation gamers off of 4th edition, by a long shot farther than having tiefling warlocks present in the PHB ever could. It will be very, very interesting to see if this new Essentials red box manages to tempt the grognards by making the 4th edition rules comprehensible -- because at the moment, I percieve them as another language altogether.
The actual core combat system of 4th edition is very concise: it's not more than a dozen pages in the back of the PHB. I'd even go so far to claim that it's easier to pick up 4th edition D&D than most previous editions, as most of the rules subsystems are streamlined. You don't have to learn completely different mechanics for skills, attack roles and saves.
The criticism that you cite doesn't affect new gamers at all, because their opinion of what "true" D&D is has not been formed by pre-AD&D. They simply won't know what you are talking about.
And as for yourself as a target demographic: Well, I'm sorry to be blunt, but you're a dying breed. Most gamers exit the demographic when they pick up a full-time job, and you're well beyond that age. Those who stick to the hobby are coveted, because they put time and money into it, and they are the ones who can afford to buy each and every book. They are the ones who educate the new generation as DMs. But it's 2010, and the latest age group to achieve grognard status saw the AD&D in its death throes when they started and mostly got their fix on 3rd edition. A system that appeals to your D&D aesthetics will target a shrinking niche market, dominated by few, vocal, well-paying customers that get fewer every year as they encounter other pasttimes like sports cars, collecting antiques, or golf.
WotC is trying to satify the needs of its diverse customer base, to the best of its ability. Specifically, WotC wants to please those gamers who want an 'evolving' digital version of D&D via D&DI, as well as please those gamers who want a 'fixed' hardcopy version of D&D via the Essentials.
The Essentials may also have arisen as part of the discussion about what is 'Core'. The existence of this alternative, 'Essenetials', suggests to me, WotC is moving ahead with the 'everything is Core' approach.
In other words, everything is Core - PH1, PH2, PH3, Dragon Magazine, Heroes, D&DI, etc are all Core, and the PH1 is no longer understood as a stand-alone book, but is now intended to be part of the evolving digital version of D&DI, especially with regard to errata, including revisions, nerfs, upgrades, and even obsolescence.
However, for those players who prefer canonical non-evolving books, WotC wants to offer the Essentials. Simple, tried-and-true. With dependable rules that wont change. By definition, the Essentials lines cant include more than the allotted number of books, because the introduction of new variables necessarily requires an evolving platform with a dynamic equalibrium. Here, the reallife experience of 4e so far, offers useful reliable robust insights to develop a quality game with fixed rules.
The relationship between the two may be ... 1, the D&DI electronic version includes all of the Essentials as part of its plethora of evolving options. 2, the Essentials version will be a less-complicated and less-expensive D&D experience that also serves as an intro into the living digital version.
New red box
I know I mentioned this in another thread, but...
I Nostalgia'd.