anybody think there would be any chance of wotc releasing all of the dragon and dungeon on a CD instead??
Not sure why they would. You can download every issue (well, the 4e ones, at least) directly off the website. Then you could burn them to a CD yourself.
I doubt many people would purchase a CD compilation of issues that they already have access to via their subscription, and WotC is almost surely not going to offer all of the material to people who don't subscribe.
Well, if you notice, he's not a subscriber. Now whether they would make enough off the sale of such a CD to non-subscribers is the question. Although it would be relatively cheap to make.
I'd certainly be interested in something like this, especially since none of the current online tools interest me. (The campaign tools look promising, so I may consider a subscription when they release, but for now I simply have no use for the CB, Compendium or Monster Builder.) It would be preferable to subscribing every 4-6 months in order to download the back issues. If they're unwilling to offer an ala carte subscription just let me order a disk from Amazon with a years worth of issues on it for around $25-$30. Perhaps they could include a few extras to entice those that wouldn't normally order a product like that.
I'd certainly be interested in something like this, especially since none of the current online tools interest me. (The campaign tools look promising, so I may consider a subscription when they release, but for now I simply have no use for the CB, Compendium or Monster Builder.) It would be preferable to subscribing every 4-6 months in order to download the back issues. If they're unwilling to offer an ala carte subscription just let me order a disk from Amazon with a years worth of issues on it for around $25-$30. Perhaps they could include a few extras to entice those that wouldn't normally order a product like that.
If you are willing to spend $25 dollars for a year's worth, then why not just subscribe for a month, download the past year, cancel it, and burn the issues to a CD or DVD? It would cost you less.
I understand where you're coming from Ranadiel, that's the current method and yes, it works. I'm just saying if Wotc produced such a product I'd be likely to buy it. For one, the price point I mentioned was just off the top of my head based on my inclination to subscibe and download once every 4-6 months. Perhaps $15 would be a better approximation, slightly more than a single sub, but cheaper than 2. For two, it would save me the hassle of subscibing and then cancelling (which for me includes the hassle of explaining to my gf each time why it's on the credit card bill and no it's not a recurring charge). For three, it's why I mentioned that they could include a few extras; off the top of my head a couple exclusive meta articles, maybe a PP or ED or adventure, or some art/poster. Any ideas for something like that?
On second thought, scratch the idea. Why not just include a disk with the year's worth of issues in the Annual? The Annual is mostly intended for nonsubscibers anyway, that gives them the best articles in print and the rest on pdf. Raise the cost slightly if you feel the need, but it increases the value of the product which should lead to more sales.
Though I wasn't impressed by the annual, I'd be more likely to subscribue once a year, update the Character Builder and the Adventure Tools, and download the "back issues" of Dragon & Dungeon. 
I mean, it's only what, ten bucks for a month? For one third the price of the annual, you could subscribe and get all the pdfs, and any of the software tools to boot. Sounds like a deal to me. When I get a job, I'll even take them up on it. 
For three, it's why I mentioned that they could include a few extras; off the top of my head a couple exclusive meta articles, maybe a PP or ED or adventure, or some art/poster. Any ideas for something like that?On second thought, scratch the idea. Why not just include a disk with the year's worth of issues in the Annual? The Annual is mostly intended for nonsubscibers anyway, that gives them the best articles in print and the rest on pdf. Raise the cost slightly if you feel the need, but it increases the value of the product which should lead to more sales.
Why should non-subscribers receive the whole year's material plus exclusive 'meta articles' (what is a meta-article?) for about a 1/4 of the price of a year subscription?
let me put it in otherwords...
dont want the exlsusives.
dont need the playtest either
dont have much use in any of the online tools either
I only want the articles, and I see no point mind you to buy a subscription in DDI to get them if 9 months worth I felt like I wasted my money.
thats why I asked, I'd spend the 25-30 dollars for it, and heck the annual too if it came with the cd.
but I just wasnt really impressed with Dragon Annual 1.
the only things it had with in it that I wanted to look at was the shadakai and the damphyr, and neither was enough to buy the individual ddi mag or the dragon annual.
I can justify it on cd, but not the otherway around. and as far as my understanding went, you could get a subcribtion for it, oh wait I see what you were saying, get the year one in december and then get each one of that year.....
thats why I asked, I'd spend the 25-30 dollars for it, and heck the annual too if it came with the cd.
but I just wasnt really impressed with Dragon Annual 1.
the only things it had with in it that I wanted to look at was the shadakai and the damphyr, and neither was enough to buy the individual ddi mag or the dragon annual.
.....But you can already get what you want(all the articles for a year) for less than half the price you are suggesting. Why do you want to spend twice the money? Is burning a CD really worth 15-20 dollars to you?
I only want the articles,
That's what I keep telling my wife about my Playboy subscription. She doesn't believe me.
I only want the articles,That's what I keep telling my wife about my Playboy subscription. She doesn't believe me.
To be honest, i do subcribe to the DDI for the dragon-boobs.
ahhh its more a convient thing.
that and misplaced cds, hard drive swaps....
I only want the articles,That's what I keep telling my wife about my Playboy subscription. She doesn't believe me.
To be honest, i do subcribe to the DDI for the dragon-boobs.
take it to astrids you dirty mindedd fantasy pervs......
NOOOOOOO!
Astrid's is a scary place. I once read a thread in there and I felt guilty for being male and breathing for a month. Only a weekend of Porky's movies, football, scratching and farting got me back to normal.
Ahem... we now return you to your regularly scheduled thread topic...
NOOOOOOO!
Astrid's is a scary place. I once read a thread in there and I felt guilty for being male and breathing for a month. Only a weekend of Porky's movies, football, scratching and farting got me back to normal.
It must just be me. They're not scary.
Just insane.
I have to say I was far more impressed with the Dragon Annual (I wanted those articles in print for my table...I hate needing a PC for refference while actually gaming), then I was with the DMG2. Now that was a waste (I wished I would have spent that 30 bucks on more minis), it contained mostly fluff that should have shown up as articles in DDI, what crunch there was happened to be good, but we still should have seen more examples, hard rules, and real material that impacted play. We ended up with a few examples, a few hard rules, and very little real material that impacted game play. We got a ton of expanded chatty articles about "player types" and how to run skill challenges, and other fluffy things, but nothing worth the price tag.
Others may have liked it (the DMG2), but it only served to make me gun-shy about future impulsive HB purchases (I should have waited a few weeks and spent more time looking through it at the store). I learned my lesson.
well as I said I wasnt overly impressed with it.
would of if it had more FR stff in it, and the eucologies instead of what would of done better in a dungeon annual.
so the dm2 isnt that good huh, well thanks for the tip
well as I said I wasnt overly impressed with it.
would of if it had more FR stff in it, and the eucologies instead of what would of done better in a dungeon annual.
so the dm2 isnt that good huh, well thanks for the tip
Personally I love the DMG 2.
I hadnt seen it yet.
so.... I love some of the art
Just be sure to give the DMG2 a real good look over before ya buy....some of the concepts are good (ie. "Boons", designing traps, companions and "Monster Themes") but we should have gotten more examples of each (for quick use of these ideas) and far less blather about how to run a D&D game. It seems like far too little real material for the price, its fine just not enough real meat. Heck they could have even padded it with more Templates and Artifacts and I would have been happier with that then 30 pages on "Storytelling". And why did they waste a huge section on Sigil??? It wasn't nearly enough information to actually use the city as more then a quick backdrop (and an adventure...really an adventure...now thats not a waste of space
), which is why I'm sure they will be releasing an entire HB on it (perhaps as a "setting"). And when they do, it really make the 40 some odd pages they used on it pointless. In the end out of the books 223 pages I'd say about 100 pages of it was either misplaced (should have been DDI articles), or worthless (already been said, or not complete enough to be really useful).
Anyhow I'm just blowing off steam. I would again just say be sure to give the DMG2 a close look before you put your money down on it, I have a feeling you may find your gaming dollar best placed elsewhere (but maybe not).
@Sepsis Sorta agree. Personally the last 2 or three chapters hold almost nothing for me as Im not running paragon campaigns and sigil doesnt mean much to me.
But Companion characters. Vinginettes, more dynamic artifacts, templates and monster themes. (more then half the book) Is something im looking forward to utilizing.
Why should non-subscribers receive the whole year's material plus exclusive 'meta articles' (what is a meta-article?) for about a 1/4 of the price of a year subscription?
How about the fact that I can already get a whole years worth of articles for the cost of a single months subscription? How about the consideration that the articles constitute roughly 1/4 of your subscription? There are 4 main features of DDI at the moment; Dragon and Dungeon, Character Builder, Monster Builder, and Compendium. Also, consider that a lot of what you're paying for with DDI is to get constant, 'right now' access. What's being asked for here is a lot like walking into BHG and asking "Can I get the last years worth of issues at a bulk discount?"
The point is, the value of DDI is highly subjective. It's simply not worth it to me to maintain a subscription if all I want is to read the articles. The next guy, might not have much interest in the articles but want to use the Compendium extensively. For him, DDI is pointless if he doesn't maintain a subscription. Everyone is going to place a different emphasis on the various components, that's why there there were requests for an ala carte pricing early on. This suggestion is simply another version of ala carte combined with a printed product.
Meta articles are articles about the writing in Dragon and Dungeon. The editorials are meta-articles. They could do articles like 'the year in review' or a Design and Development article for the Scales of War writers/editors. Basically it's writing about the writing.
Just be sure to give the DMG2 a real good look over before ya buy....some of the concepts are good (ie. "Boons", designing traps, companions and "Monster Themes") but we should have gotten more examples of each (for quick use of these ideas) and far less blather about how to run a D&D game. It seems like far too little real material for the price, its fine just not enough real meat. Heck they could have even padded it with more Templates and Artifacts and I would have been happier with that then 30 pages on "Storytelling". And why did they waste a huge section on Sigil??? It wasn't nearly enough information to actually use the city as more then a quick backdrop (and an adventure...really an adventure...now thats not a waste of space), which is why I'm sure they will be releasing an entire HB on it (perhaps as a "setting"). And when they do, it really make the 40 some odd pages they used on it pointless. In the end out of the books 223 pages I'd say about 100 pages of it was either misplaced (should have been DDI articles), or worthless (already been said, or not complete enough to be really useful).
Anyhow I'm just blowing off steam. I would again just say be sure to give the DMG2 a close look before you put your money down on it, I have a feeling you may find your gaming dollar best placed elsewhere (but maybe not).
Interesting, as I have perused the DMG2 several times in the stores, and every time I look at what it has, I want it more.
Then again, I am a newbie DM, so that might contribute to my wanting it so badly. 
...Companion characters. Vinginettes, more dynamic artifacts, templates and monster themes. (more then half the book) Is something im looking forward to utilizing.
I thought the "Companion characters, Vinginettes, more dynamic artifacts, templates and monster themes" were very good as well (don't forget the "Boons")...there just should have been more of this (at least more useful examples) and less of the preachy articles on dealing with different "player types", "skill challenges", "storytelling", "hooks", etc. All of which were either rewrites already published on DDI (they even warn us that their is republished junk within...my fault for not really listening), or should have been future articles on DDI. For 35 bucks I want a ton of crunch I can use tonight, give me the fluff with my DDI subscription (thats what I got it for).
Interesting, as I have perused the DMG2 several times in the stores, and every time I look at what it has, I want it more.Then again, I am a newbie DM, so that might contribute to my wanting it so badly.
Actually you may really like it (or even need it), as it does seem to be written with the novice DM in mind. The only problem with that, is that sooner or later you will outgrow that material and I don't think you should have to spend that much on "how to be a good DM" articles. That is the material I believe should have been presented in Dragon articles, not part of a permanent refference book I'm supposed to put on the shelf along with my PHBs, and MMs (all of which contain material we use nearly every session). Again much of the material in the DMG2 is good...it just isn't HB permanent good (or even useful).
...Companion characters. Vinginettes, more dynamic artifacts, templates and monster themes. (more then half the book) Is something im looking forward to utilizing.I thought the "Companion characters, Vinginettes, more dynamic artifacts, templates and monster themes" were very good as well (don't forget the "Boons")...there just should have been more of this (at least more useful examples) and less of the preachy articles on dealing with different "player types", "skill challenges", "storytelling", "hooks", etc. All of which were either rewrites already published on DDI (they even warn us that their is republished junk within...my fault for not really listening), or should have been future articles on DDI. For 35 bucks I want a ton of crunch I can use tonight, give me the fluff with my DDI subscription (thats what I got it for).
Interesting, as I have perused the DMG2 several times in the stores, and every time I look at what it has, I want it more.Then again, I am a newbie DM, so that might contribute to my wanting it so badly.
Actually you may really like it (or even need it), as it does seem to be written with the novice DM in mind. The only problem with that, is that sooner or later you will outgrow that material and I don't think you should have to spend that much on "how to be a good DM" articles. That is the material I believe should have been presented in Dragon articles, not part of a permanent refference book I'm supposed to put on the shelf along with my PHBs, and MMs (all of which contain material we use nearly every session). Again much of the material in the DMG2 is good...it just isn't HB permanent good (or even useful).
Since I don't have DDi (My friends share their wealth on occasion) because I can't afford a yearly subscription, I really like that they don't just move the fluff to only one place. And I think WotC knows that some people don't have DDi, and that's why they re-print some stuff for us who are without. Personally, I'll get the DMG2 for the advice, and keep it around for the crunch and monster building rules. What would be nice though is to have some guidlines for building our own magic weapons and artifacts.
Actually you may really like it (or even need it), as it does seem to be written with the novice DM in mind. The only problem with that, is that sooner or later you will outgrow that material and I don't think you should have to spend that much on "how to be a good DM" articles. That is the material I believe should have been presented in Dragon articles, not part of a permanent refference book I'm supposed to put on the shelf along with my PHBs, and MMs (all of which contain material we use nearly every session). Again much of the material in the DMG2 is good...it just isn't HB permanent good (or even useful).
I disagree with the notion that a good DM ever outgrows a good advice guide. I'm a reasonably experienced DM and I love DMG2, and expect I always will. Even the moist experienced DM can always use a refresher, or a reminder that there are alternatives to the way in which they have settled.
Actually you may really like it (or even need it), as it does seem to be written with the novice DM in mind. The only problem with that, is that sooner or later you will outgrow that material and I don't think you should have to spend that much on "how to be a good DM" articles. That is the material I believe should have been presented in Dragon articles, not part of a permanent refference book I'm supposed to put on the shelf along with my PHBs, and MMs (all of which contain material we use nearly every session). Again much of the material in the DMG2 is good...it just isn't HB permanent good (or even useful).
I disagree with the notion that a good DM ever outgrows a good advice guide. I'm a reasonably experienced DM and I love DMG2, and expect I always will. Even the moist experienced DM can always use a refresher, or a reminder that their are alternative to the way in which they have settled.
I'm experienced in being moist.
I disagree with the notion that a good DM ever outgrows a good advice guide. I'm a reasonably experienced DM and I love DMG2, and expect I always will. Even the moist experienced DM can always use a refresher, or a reminder that their are alternative to the way in which they have settled.
A good point, and why I remain convinced that the DMG2 is an HB that needs to be perused, and investigated (perhaps via trusted reviewers and/or thier sites) before one purchases it. Unlike some "core" books (including in my opinion the Dragon Annual), that you can feel sure about "buying first...reading later", the DMG2 is just not that useful to everyone for it's price. And what is presented, that most DMs will use and find useful, will be clear enough in later publications that refference them that one dosen't "need" to own the DMG2 to understand the concepts (just give the book a look through and you will see what I mean). So as always my only real advice about the DMG2 is be sure you really want (or need) it before tossing your money at it. I just don't think it is as much a "must own" book as many, or even as much as the Dragon Annual.
Since I don't have DDi (My friends share their wealth on occasion) because I can't afford a yearly subscription, I really like that they don't just move the fluff to only one place. And I think WotC knows that some people don't have DDi, and that's why they re-print some stuff for us who are without......What would be nice though is to have some guidlines for building our own magic weapons and artifacts.
I agree that WotC should reprint thier DDI material in HB format every year for non-subscribers...but thats what the Dragon Annual is for, not a new DMG. And I completly agree with your statement about guidelines for Magic Weapons, and Artifacts. I also would have liked to see rules/guidelines on making new 4e Races as well...but what I got was another article on how I need to classify my Players (not the Characters but the Players) into a type and where they need to sit at the table or some such
.Since I don't have DDi (My friends share their wealth on occasion) because I can't afford a yearly subscription, I really like that they don't just move the fluff to only one place. And I think WotC knows that some people don't have DDi, and that's why they re-print some stuff for us who are without......What would be nice though is to have some guidlines for building our own magic weapons and artifacts.
I agree that WotC should reprint thier DDI material in HB format every year for non-subscribers...but thats what the Dragon Annual is for, not a new DMG. And I completly agree with your statement about guidelines for Magic Weapons, and Artifacts. I also would have liked to see rules/guidelines on making new 4e Races as well...but what I got was another article on how I need to classify my Players (not the Characters but the Players) into a type and where they need to sit at the table or some such .
I never saw any "Need to" but more, "this is suggested". I mean really, I'd prefer that they give more crunch (more traps and items and such) in the Dragon & Dungeon PDFs, and give more guidelines and suggestions in the DMGs. Then again, I might be in the minority.
I never saw any "Need to" but more, "this is suggested". I mean really, I'd prefer that they give more crunch (more traps and items and such) in the Dragon & Dungeon PDFs, and give more guidelines and suggestions in the DMGs. Then again, I might be in the minority.
Its true they give it as suggestions, but if you don't follow them then you can ignore about 30 pages of material in the book....which I do, but I dislike seeing the space therefore wasted on the subject.
And your not in the minority, I love the idea of more guidelines and suggestions on building Templates, Themes, Items, Artifacts, Races, Monsters, Classes, Pargon Paths, Epic Destinies, and other general game based material I can use. But old reprints of tired subjects already covered and aimed at out-of-game subjects (touch on Players, but focus on Characters...please) need not be included. But if they won't give me the former (useful guidelines and suggestions) then instead of giving me the latter (tired reprinted DM advice) at least fill those pages with crunchy examples of the good things you did introduce (Themes, Boons, Companions, etc) I can use. Save those other articles for DDI and its annual.
I'm experienced in being moist.
I find your snark 'moist' amusing.
PS: damn spell checker.
I disagree with the notion that a good DM ever outgrows a good advice guide. I'm a reasonably experienced DM and I love DMG2, and expect I always will. Even the moist experienced DM can always use a refresher, or a reminder that there are alternatives to the way in which they have settled.
A good point, and why I remain convinced that the DMG2 is an HB that needs to be perused, and investigated (perhaps via trusted reviewers and/or thier sites) before one purchases it. Unlike some "core" books (including in my opinion the Dragon Annual), that you can feel sure about "buying first...reading later", the DMG2 is just not that useful to everyone for it's price. And what is presented, that most DMs will use and find useful, will be clear enough in later publications that refference them that one dosen't "need" to own the DMG2 to understand the concepts (just give the book a look through and you will see what I mean). So as always my only real advice about the DMG2 is be sure you really want (or need) it before tossing your money at it. I just don't think it is as much a "must own" book as many, or even as much as the Dragon Annual.
I think you misinterpreted my stance, otherwise I can't see how you could start such a seemingly contradictory stance with the statement "good point". I will however agree that for those who are in anyway uncertain, skimming through the DMG2 before purchase is a good idea, but that is true of any book.
For me personally, I was confident enough that the DMG2 would follow up on the foundation of its predecessor that I pre-ordered it 3 months in advance. Nothing I saw in the excerpts gave me cause to reconsider or cancel my order (thus I ended up getting it at a discounted price of just over $19 as a result). Dragon Annual on the the hand is something I was far more uncertain of, since as a DDi subscriber I already had all of its content. Having looked it over in store, I think its a great buy for any one who doesn't have a subscription or who cares about having the content in hardback, but it's not probably for me. Revenge of the Giants is another book I was hesitant over, but after have skimmed it I've decided to put it n my list of possible future purchases.
I think you misinterpreted my stance, otherwise I can't see how you could start such a seemingly contradictory stance with the statement "good point"...
Oh no I understood your point, and I do agree that even the "most experienced DM can always use a refresher, or a reminder that there are alternatives to the way in which they have settled"; and I myself have collected about 400+ pages of material from various sources over the years on those various esoteric subjects...and if someone needs this material (either because they haven't already collected enough of it over the years, or they need more) then its a good buy for them. But if like myself you already have enough of these "outside views" and don't need the extra eye opening you may wish to avoid a book that spends nearly half its content on those subjects.
No contradiction, you made a good point I had missed. Being an extremely expierenced DM who has read these same articles a million times (and already collected dozens of well written ones into notebooks), I had only seen that same information cropping up again as a waste. I had not thought of those who may as of yet not had the same level of exposure, and would want to collect it. Still I would of thought those areas best left in Dragon (or Dungeon) with a yearly release within an annual. Original hardcovers should be mostly "meat & potatoes", with the handholding dissertations placed in editorials.
I never saw any "Need to" but more, "this is suggested". I mean really, I'd prefer that they give more crunch (more traps and items and such) in the Dragon & Dungeon PDFs, and give more guidelines and suggestions in the DMGs. Then again, I might be in the minority.Its true they give it as suggestions, but if you don't follow them then you can ignore about 30 pages of material in the book....which I do, but I dislike seeing the space therefore wasted on the subject.
And your not in the minority, I love the idea of more guidelines and suggestions on building Templates, Themes, Items, Artifacts, Races, Monsters, Classes, Pargon Paths, Epic Destinies, and other general game based material I can use. But old reprints of tired subjects already covered and aimed at out-of-game subjects (touch on Players, but focus on Characters...please) need not be included. But if they won't give me the former (useful guidelines and suggestions) then instead of giving me the latter (tired reprinted DM advice) at least fill those pages with crunchy examples of the good things you did introduce (Themes, Boons, Companions, etc) I can use. Save those other articles for DDI and its annual.
What I meant by Guidelines and suggestions was the stuff about how to wrangle players.
Really, the players can handle their characters, I'm there to handle the players. Sure I'd like more mechanical guidelines too, (Creation guides for magic items, and Artifacts, for example) but really, some of what you call reprints are really new to me, and helpful. I can understand if you feel unhappy that what you got with DDi was reprinted in a core book, but really, for those of us who need the DM advice on how to handle making players (not characters) happy, a DM guide is the place to put those, not some pay-per-month service.
The annual isn't a Dungeon Annual, after all, which deals with the DM side of things as I understand it. It's a Dragon Annual, for the Players to have more options. Not that a Dungeon Annual would be bad but as it hasn't happened yet, I appreciate them collecting reprinting advice from a pay service into a book.
the dragon annual is not a reprint of what was in the ddi articles, but the best of them.
have you even gone through it, it doesnt have everything in it that was released this year, just the best.
which was why I asked if they would release it on CD at the end of the year.
and best is being very speculative
Oh no I understood your point, and I do agree that even the "most experienced DM can always use a refresher, or a reminder that there are alternatives to the way in which they have settled"; and I myself have collected about 400+ pages of material from various sources over the years on those various esoteric subjects...and if someone needs this material (either because they haven't already collected enough of it over the years, or they need more) then its a good buy for them. But if like myself you already have enough of these "outside views" and don't need the extra eye opening you may wish to avoid a book that spends nearly half its content on those subjects.No contradiction, you made a good point I had missed. Being an extremely expierenced DM who has read these same articles a million times (and already collected dozens of well written ones into notebooks), I had only seen that same information cropping up again as a waste. I had not thought of those who may as of yet not had the same level of exposure, and would want to collect it.
Ah, that makes more sense. I misinterpreted your reason for suggesting why an experienced DM might not need the new material. The fact that long running veteran DM may have already collected large number of advice sources is an equally good one. Still, 4e is a new system so WotC needs to retread some old ground, if only to make sure new DMs can have such material. Also, while much of that older material may still be useful, some of it may no longer be entirely valid and some of it may even be contradictory to modern game theory. As such I still feel that even DMs with extensive collections of similar material could get some great use out of DMG2.
Still I would of thought those areas best left in Dragon (or Dungeon) with a yearly release within an annual. Original hardcovers should be mostly "meat & potatoes", with the handholding dissertations placed in editorials.
I can think of a good reason why this should not be the case. With all this info compiled in DMGs players like you who feel they already have enough such material can choose whether or not to purchase it. On the other hand if it where spread across the monthly magazine releases than a subscriber would have no choice. Also having such information spread out over the multiple months can make it less accessible, and reprinting it all in an annual might not a marketable option.
While compiling such articles into the annuals could provide a book similar to the DMG2, it seems WotC is most interested in reprinting the flashier and meatier articles. Part of the function of the annuals is attract new customers to DDi by showing them what kind of 'excitement' they are missing out on. This is likely why The first Dungeon Annual was canceled, as that magazine hasn't really had much in the way of such flashy fair. Likewise, it is probably part of the reason for the change of content that started in Dungeon this month, which with any luck will mean that next year we will be able to get both annuals.