The term 'redundant' ability scores refers to the fact, either Str or Con provides a bonuse to the Fortitude defense, but not both; Dex or Int, the Reflex and AC defenses; and Wis or Cha, the Will defense.
So, if Str is higher, Con becomes redundant. If Con is higher, Str becomes redundant. And so on for Dex/Int and Wis/Cha.
The point is, an ability score is very powerful. By continuing to invest in it while leveling to keep it ahead of the statistical curve, a character improves every aspect, from attack rolls, to damage rolls, to skill checks, to ability checks, and so on. This racial bonus proves optimal.
The problem is, some races boost redundant abilities (such as the Eladrin that boosts Dex-Int, the Kalashtar that boosts Wis-Cha, the Warforged that boosts Str-Con, and so on). Moreover, certain classes require redundant scores (such as the Wand Wizard that requires Dex-Int, the Cleric build that requires Wis-Cha, the Fighter build that requires Str-Con, and so on). When this happens, one of these abilities becomes worthless, and investing in it becomes worthless (for example, if an Eladrin Wand Wizard invests in Int, the simultaneous investment in Dex wont benefit the Reflex and AC defenses). This worthlessness discourages investment in whichever is lower between the redundant abilities. By Epic level, the conflictive and negating bonuses all but forces a character to 'dump' whichever ability is redundant. Thus for example, an Eladrin will tend to be either Dexterous or Intelligent, but not both - dissonating from the Eladrin archetype that is *both* Dexterous and Intelligent. And so on for Kalashstar, Warforged, etc.
Redundant abilities is a problem Iv complained about for a while, but Iv come upon a solution that I feel is satisfactory.
(To be clear, previous editions of D&D made abilities wildly unequal. So for example, Cha was usually worthless, while Dex was considered the most powerful, unless the character chose the Wizard class, in which case an Int score turned out to be vastly more powerful. In context, 4e, even with its problem of redundant abilities, is much better and fairer than anything that existed in previous editions.)
Redundant abilities remain a problem in 4e. Here is a solution: 'Defensive Edge'.
Defensive Edge solves the problem of redundant abilities. This mechanic stays balanced by benefiting a player that, while improving the highest ability, can also benefit fairly from choosing to improve also its lower redundant ability. Importantly, 'Defensive Edge' doesnt benefit a player that chooses to dump the lower redundant ability.
Defensive Edge: Whenever you use your highest ability score to determine the ability bonus for the corresponding defense, you add to that score the modifier of the unused redundant ability. However, you dont add the redundant modifier if it is negative.
Example: A Human Wizard has Intelligence 20 and Dexterity 14, and Intelligence is the highest ability score. Therefore, Intelligence counts as if 22 (= 20 Intelligence score +2 Dexterity modifier), thus granting a +6 ability modifier as the bonus to the AC and Reflex defenses.
By allowing the redundant modifier to heighten the defense even more, it becomes a reasonable option for a player to continue improving it while leveling. All characters have the option to use Defensive Edge, regardless of race or class. They can apply it, whatever their highest ability score is.
Player Characters and Non-Player Characters can benefit from Defensive Edge. However, 'Monster Characters', which follow different rules for creation, cant benefit from Defensive Edge.
Whether the PH3 uses Defensive Edge or produces an even better mechanism, I hope the PH3 creates a solution to put the problem of redundant abilities to rest, once and for all.
I like the mechanic you made up for Defensive edge. As a Eladrin Wand Wizard player, I certainly wouldn't mind a mechanic like that to exist. However, pumping Dex alongside Int gives my wizard a high initiative count, which is not a bad thing to have as a Wizard (though the other way around doesn't really help for a Dex class). Pumping Con alongside Strength gives a Warforged more starting HP(both ways of this are beneficial as a high Strength is as good as a high Con to fighter class). The combo that offers pretty much nothing is the Wis-Cha combo, as pumping one offers nothing to the other. But what would one offer a Wis-Cha race, as only one defense keys off of it, unlike the Dex-Int which has two defenses that key off of it.
This would be a good idea, if not for the fact that "Same Defense" races then to get more and better features, like Eladrin Will, to make up for it.
If we shift the consideration to classes that raise only 1 defense it becomes thornier. Most stat combos in class tend to avoid the same defense for that very reason. The Str/Con combination arguably gets away with lower defenses from having so much extra HP.
I don't think getting "super high" in a single NAD is the best approach- it'd be more balanced if there was a way to raise the other defenses instead- I was thinking something like feats that'd be granted as features to builds of a single defense. Something like:
Aerobic training (Str must be less than Con)- Str can be used to determine reflex, and it's companion
Thickskinned (Con determines Will)
And repeat for the other defenses.
This is not a problem. It's one of the ways 4e is dealing with 'stat inflation'. You can have a low stat or two (or three) without putting a crippling hole in your character. The two-stat option for defenses was one of the best ideas that went into 4e.
This is not a problem. It's one of the ways 4e is dealing with 'stat inflation'. You can have a low stat or two (or three) without putting a crippling hole in your character. The two-stat option for defenses was one of the best ideas that went into 4e.
+1
It is the usual trade-off. No one can have unlimited power. There is always a price and a limit.
If I want an Eladrin wizard with a great initiative, Improved Wand Expertise, great pluses to hit, then I have to accept that my Fortitude defense will probably be in the toilet. And my Will defense will be all right.
Constitution is not useless for the fighter, despite it not adding to Fortitude, otherwise he would not put points in it. Constitution means more healing surges and hit points, never mind all the feats and abilities that use it for bonuses.
I would like to add that this also means your character isn't uber awesome, i.e. it goes along with the idea of a party driven frame of mind. You need the whole party do do what you all intend; one cannot stand alone.
This isn't about making an uber standalone character though , the issue is that some class builds have two "dumped" (read: always get hit on a 2) NADs instead of 1 because their chosen secondary shares the defense of the primary. The "EPIC NAD" feats can be taken to help correct this (being worth having +8 on the stat maps to stat growth well), but they are a bit cludgy.
I would like to add that this also means your character isn't uber awesome, i.e. it goes along with the idea of a party driven frame of mind. You need the whole party do do what you all intend; one cannot stand alone.
Unless someone rolls all 18's.
I would like to add that this also means your character isn't uber awesome, i.e. it goes along with the idea of a party driven frame of mind. You need the whole party do do what you all intend; one cannot stand alone.
Unless someone rolls all 18's.
My mother made a character for my game, and rolled three 18's, two 17s and a 16. I insisted that they be lessened to the aporximate scores of everyone else in the group.
She had no problem with that, though she was rather pleased to know that she would have had a really overpowered character otherwise. 
I would like to add that this also means your character isn't uber awesome, i.e. it goes along with the idea of a party driven frame of mind. You need the whole party do do what you all intend; one cannot stand alone.
Unless someone rolls all 18's.
And that's why you use point buy.
I would like to add that this also means your character isn't uber awesome, i.e. it goes along with the idea of a party driven frame of mind. You need the whole party do do what you all intend; one cannot stand alone.
Unless someone rolls all 18's.And that's why you use point buy.
I cordially dislike point buy systems of any kind, and only tolerate them in video games because they are one of only two logical ways of generating scores; the other being a randomized dice roller similar to what the Character Builder has.
So far, every one of my players has rolled their stats, and I would prefer them doing that to any other way.
Rolling is never fair because luck is inherently unlucky, unless you have magic hands or cheater's dice.
Rolling has always, always resulted in my games that one character rolls all 18 (the player who's always the rogue, no less), while everyone else rolls crappy stats that can barely survive because they're all around 10 +/- 2.
Point Buy is annoying at times because it means you have to sacrifice some abilities to begin with, but the game is all about making choice amongst a sea of options, sacrificing others. Point Buy is the only fair system that makes everyone happy because they can do what they do effectively.
This would be a good idea, if not for the fact that "Same Defense" races then to get more and better features, like Eladrin Will, to make up for it.
If we shift the consideration to classes that raise only 1 defense it becomes thornier. Most stat combos in class tend to avoid the same defense for that very reason. The Str/Con combination arguably gets away with lower defenses from having so much extra HP.
I don't think getting "super high" in a single NAD is the best approach- it'd be more balanced if there was a way to raise the other defenses instead- I was thinking something like feats that'd be granted as features to builds of a single defense. Something like:
Aerobic training (Str must be less than Con)- Str can be used to determine reflex, and it's companion
Thickskinned (Con determines Will)
And repeat for the other defenses.
This is the solution that pops into my mind - though it'd have to be artifically limited in some way so you don't have all your NADs sky-high. If there isn't a solution like this, I hope at least the Kalashtar get some racial feats to compensate, as Charisma and Wisdom overlap the most.
I feel like scaling attacks / defenses is probably the most glaring issue in 4th edition, and one that's already received a lot of attention (in the form of Weapon/Implement Expertise and the NAD boosters). I'm hoping the DM2, actually, addresses a way to fix some of these things without relying on feats.
Just to be clear, Eladrin Will doesnt - by any stretch of the imagination - make up for the loss that results from the redundant ability scores.
Suppose, an Elf and an Eladrin point-buy the same ability scores, except the Elf puts an 18 on the racial Dex and a 14 on the racial Wis, and the Eladrin puts the 18 on the racial Dex and the 14 on the racial Int. Both continue to maximize their racial ability scores while leveling. By Epic level 28, the bonuses to the defenses - including the Eladrin Will trait - will look like this ...
Elf
Reflex-AC +9
Will +7
Fortitude +1
Eladrin
Reflex-AC +9
Will +2
Fortitude +1
Obviously the Elfs Will +7 is better than the Eladrins Will +2. (The Eladrins +2 bonus comes from the +1 from Eladrin Will and the +1 from the 2 points of ability score improvement while leveling to the Paragon and Epic tiers.)
The Eladrin has still lost a +5 bonus to the Will defense.
The +1 of the Eladrin Will trait is ... insufficient.
Just to be clear, Eladrin Will doesnt - by any stretch of the imagination - make up for the loss that results from the redundant ability scores.
Suppose, an Elf and an Eladrin point-buy the same ability scores, except the Elf puts an 18 on the racial Dex and a 14 on the racial Wis, and the Eladrin puts the 18 on the racial Dex and the 14 on the racial Int. Both continue to maximize their racial ability scores while leveling. By Epic level 28, the bonuses to the defenses - including the Eladrin Will trait - will look like this ...
Elf
Reflex-AC +9
Will +7
Fortitude +1Eladrin
Reflex-AC +9
Will +2
Fortitude +1Obviously the Elfs Will +7 is better than the Eladrins Will +2. (The Eladrins +2 bonus comes from the +1 from Eladrin Will and the +1 from the 2 points of ability score improvement while leveling to the Paragon and Epic tiers.)
The Eladrin has still lost a +5 bonus to the Will defense.
The +1 of the Eladrin Will trait is ... insufficient.
You're completely missing the point. The point you're presenting is a (non-existant) problem with classes and their ability scores, not races. Were the Eladrin and the Elf the same class, and had the same base ability scores, their Will defense would be the same, because the only thing that the Elf has over the Eladrin is that +2 Wisdom, which is mitigated by the +1 to Will.
And don't pretend like having the NADs overlap makes one stat completely redundant. Yes, with an 18 in STR, my Warden's 18 in CON doesn't affect his Fortitude. But it gives him more HP, more healing surges, and much better class features (In this case, 4 more AC). That's the point.
However, he's right in that there isn't too much benefit for high Wis/Cha when it comes to Prescient Bard, Virtuous Paladin, and Shielding and Devoted Clerics. These all focus on Wis/Cha, thus meaning Kalashtar are optimal, but the problem isn't Kalashtar, it is that the classes don't provide enough for the other defences. These builds alone so far do so, though presumbably classes in the future will have Wis/Cha builds (perhaps Empath?).
However, he's right in that there isn't too much benefit for high Wis/Cha when it comes to Prescient Bard, Virtuous Paladin, and Shielding and Devoted Clerics.
Except for all those Class Features and abilities that rely on the secondary stat.
Whether the PH3 uses Defensive Edge or produces an even better mechanism, I hope the PH3 creates a solution to put the problem of redundant abilities to rest, once and for all.
Hopefully there will be nothing of the sort in the PHB3. Things are fine the way they are and races with "redundant ability bonuses" perform just fine.
However, he's right in that there isn't too much benefit for high Wis/Cha when it comes to Prescient Bard, Virtuous Paladin, and Shielding and Devoted Clerics.
Except for all those Class Features and abilities that rely on the secondary stat.
That's not what I meant. What I was trying to say was that the Fortitude and Reflex defences suffer if you go for those builds. Of course you get Class Features and powers that rely on the secondary stat for those classes. However, you get that for whatever build you use. The problem is the defences - something these builds alone end with. Other builds - Str/Con is common (Rageblood Barbarian, Earth Warden, Great Weapon Fighter and to a lesser extent Battlerager Fighter), but the War Wizard is Int/Dex - also suffer this problem. However, at least Con gives you more HP, etc. Dex gives you more AC if you're not wearing Heavy Armour.
The best fix for this problem would be to include a new rule in PH3 that either a high Wis or Cha gives you some other special bonus. This would mirror the effects of a High Dex or a High Con. It wouldn't be something big enough to redeem low defences - that's the sacrifice you make for focusing on areas that overlap in their defences, it's part of the theme and feel of the build (the empathetic Prescient Bard has a strong willpower, but his stamina is nothing like the Valorous Bard, nor is his agility like the Cunning Bard). It would just be big enough for you it to be a booby prize - anyone who uses this ability gets the bonus, but I get the bonus and I get to focus in it's co-defence ability (Str, Int, or whichever of the two Will-abilities that doesn't get this bonus).
The scores themselves aren't redundant. CON still determines Hit Points, no matter what your STR score is.
You just have the choice between which ability score will be applied to your defense.
The scores themselves aren't redundant. CON still determines Hit Points, no matter what your STR score is.
You just have the choice between which ability score will be applied to your defense.
Okay, sure - but what about Charisma and Wisdom?
If you chose to argue that they grant bonuses to (arguably) some of the best skills in the game, maybe I could see that there's something to be gained from sacrificing a NAD. But other than this argument, perhaps, having a high Charisma and Wisdom nets you nothing like having high Strength and Constitution do.
If you're worried about optimization, which really is the only reason to worry about "redundant ability scores", then pick class and race combos that won't give "redundant" scores like the genasi swordmage or half-elf bard. Otherwise pick combos you like for roleplay and don't worry about it. Besides if a "redundant" score makes one of your defenses low, there are always magic items to improve it.
Oh, and Cha and Wis have the most skills tied to them. So you would be rather good at those skills even without being trained in them.
If you're worried about optimization, which really is the only reason to worry about "redundant ability scores", then pick class and race combos that won't give "redundant" scores like the genasi swordmage or half-elf bard. Otherwise pick combos you like for roleplay and don't worry about it. Besides if a "redundant" score makes one of your defenses low, there are always magic items to improve it.
This seems to violate the premise of fourth edition. That is, all player characters are on even footing in one way or another. Some people would rightfully argue that having two defenses that are hit 75% of the time does not constitute even footing. Magic items and feats can supplement this, but the two problems I see with this is that it comes a little late in the game, and other characters are still going to have higher (and much more well-rounded) defenses because they can also select these items and feats. It doesn't seem like you should have to spend feats / have specific items in order to just be on even footing with other classes.
I'm still going to play my hybrid Bard/Cleric Kalashtar even if this isn't addressed because I like the concept. It doesn't mean I'm not a little frustrated that my Fortitude and Reflex defenses are terrible.
Oh, and Cha and Wis have the most skills tied to them. So you would be rather good at those skills even without being trained in them.
Let's look at a breakdown.
Wis: Dungeoneering, Nature, Insight, Perception, Heal
Cha: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Streetwise
Int: Arcana, History, Religion
Dex: Acrobatics, Stealth, Thievery
Str: Athletics
Con: Endurance
So between Charisma and Wisdom, they have nine out of the seventeen skills, and perhaps some of the more important ones (Perception and Heal). This is probably one of the trade-offs that the designers had in mind when they were comparing ability scores, and it's not a bad one.
But a Wis-Int build can have these awesome Wisdom skills and great Will and Reflex defenses. And instead of blowing his feats on more defensive options, he can train into the charisma skills he's missing - or, more likely, rely on an ally to be the party face instead. Using skills as a balancing factor for something more combat related (ie, 5+ points in a defense), especially when you usually only need one party member to have that skill, doesn't seem like a fair trade-off.
It could be that, more generally, the builds that have overlapping ability scores, such as the healing focused cleric or the war wizard, already have some inherent advantage over the other classes (say, immense amounts of healing in the case of the cleric). But this seems a little difficult to support without developer knowledge or a thorough analysis of the classes in question.
It could be that, more generally, the builds that have overlapping ability scores, such as the healing focused cleric or the war wizard, already have some inherent advantage over the other classes (say, immense amounts of healing in the case of the cleric). But this seems a little difficult to support without developer knowledge or a thorough analysis of the classes in question.
This is exactly what it is. You don't get better healing than a Devoted or Shielding Cleric. You don't get any tougher than an Earthstrength Warden. There are other merits to a class or ability scores aside from just your defenses.
Yes, I agree with the OP, there seem to be a problem with some builds that aren't on even footing with others (str and con, dex and int, wis and cha). These options can even be considered true heroic archetypes. Balance is one of the main novelties of 4ed so I'd also like a solution to this concern.
This seems to violate the premise of fourth edition. That is, all player characters are on even footing in one way or another. Some people would rightfully argue that having two defenses that are hit 75% of the time does not constitute even footing.
I think that the premise of 4E is that there can be some variance between different characters, but those differences should not render one character ineffective over another. I agree that those characters who need to increase the two ability scores that affect the same NAD are at a disadvantage compared to those who do not. However, I am not convinced that the difference is so bad that the character with lower NADs is considered unplayable.
I understand that players do want all characters to be on an even footing with every other class. The fact is that there will be some characters stronger than others. As long as the difference in the strength of most characters is reasonably small enough, the weaker character is playable.
4E is very good in that it makes it easy to build a character that is reasonably playable even if it is not optimised. Perhaps a newer edition will be able to take a step further with balancing different characters.
======
Anyway, if PH3 does have a fix for this, it will most likely happen with a feat (like what Melee Training did for non-Str-based defenders). Perhaps they will create a feat that will allow you to select an ability score and have it affect a different NAD. For instance if you play a wand wizard, you can take this feat to use Dex (or Int) for Fort or Will instead of Ref. I think this is the easiest answer. As I recall, there were similar feats in 3.5.
I had a similiar idea above, couched so you couldn't use 1 stat to raise everything for 2 feats. Anyone see any flaws with it?
I had a similiar idea above, couched so you couldn't use 1 stat to raise everything for 2 feats. Anyone see any flaws with it?
We have similar ideas. I was thinking that a single feat that changes one stat to affect a different NAD would be enough instead of 9 feats. Most likely, players would only want to take the feat once. Although having multiple feats allow your wand wizard to have high Fort and Will, I think a single feat is a bit more elegant. It's like having Melee Training instead of Intelligent Blademaster plus 4 other feats.
This seems to violate the premise of fourth edition. That is, all player characters are on even footing in one way or another. Some people would rightfully argue that having two defenses that are hit 75% of the time does not constitute even footing.
I think that the premise of 4E is that there can be some variance between different characters, but those differences should not render one character ineffective over another. I agree that those characters who need to increase the two ability scores that affect the same NAD are at a disadvantage compared to those who do not. However, I am not convinced that the difference is so bad that the character with lower NADs is considered unplayable.
This is a better way of what I was trying to say. And I certainly agree that these characters are not unplayable by any means.
Feats should be nice, not required.
Stampeding: If PH3 does have a fix for this, it will most likely happen with a feat.
Players should use feats to make awesome, personalized character concepts. Players shouldnt have to burn feats to fix known problematics with design.
However, redundant abilities gets fixed, it needs to be free.
It could be that, more generally, the builds that have overlapping ability scores, such as the healing focused cleric or the war wizard, already have some inherent advantage over the other classes (say, immense amounts of healing in the case of the cleric). But this seems a little difficult to support without developer knowledge or a thorough analysis of the classes in question.This is exactly what it is. You don't get better healing than a Devoted or Shielding Cleric. You don't get any tougher than an Earthstrength Warden. There are other merits to a class or ability scores aside from just your defenses.
I definitely think that's plausible. It'd be really interesting to see dev commentary on the sort of thinking that goes behind designing classes, especially corner cases like overlapping ability scores, and it would shed some light on what we should expect from classes as unified wholes, rather than just collections of powers and class features.
It's been mentioned now and again by developers that Mystic Theurge, a prestige class from 3.5, was generally considered broken by a large amount of the community when it was first released. But in practice, it was shown to be fine. I wonder if this is a similar case, except what we think is weak actually has an intentional balancing factor.
Feats should be nice, not required.
I think that such a feat would be nice. I don't think that everyone would actually take it.
Stampeding: If PH3 does have a fix for this, it will most likely happen with a feat.
Players should use feats to make awesome, personalized character concepts. Players shouldnt have to burn feats to fix known problematics with design.
However, redundant abilities gets fixed, it needs to be free.
I highly doubt that they would fix it in PH3. It would require changes to quite a few classes. The easiest way to fix it is to do it like how they allow certain types of sorcerers to use Str instead of Dex for AC bonus. They would add a feature for the Wand Wizard that allows them to use Dex instead of Wis or Cha for Will defences.
I do not see this to be a major problem that renders certain characters ineffective. For those people who feel they need a second NAD to be higher, they can take the feat.
Also, such a feat also can be used to make your character awesome. For instance, a staff wizard can choose to use his Con for Will defences instead of Fort defences with this feat. This feat can both be a fix for some players and allow others to personalise their character.
So, if Str is higher, Con becomes redundant. If Con is higher, Str becomes redundant. And so on for Dex/Int and Wis/Cha.
The problem with this is that it assumes Strength and Constitution don't affect anything else. Strength affects the Attack Rating, and Constitution affects health (Hit Points etc).