The concept of the monk drawing energy from within was a good match for psionics. When we looked at classes like the shugenja, the wu jen, the ninja, and the samurai, we came to similar conclusions in matching them to other power sources. In some cases, like the samurai, we're more excited about using an approach similar to the Dragon articles on gladiators and assassins.
Now, if we have a great mechanical concept for a samurai, we'll run with it, but right now the thinking is that it's more compelling to play a paladin, a fighter, or maybe even a cleric or warden, and place samurai mechanics and options on top of that.
The shukenja and the wu-jen could still easily fall in the ki source. They could be the future leader and controller classes of the ki power source. It will be interesting to see how they are flavoured. Then again, if other sources continue to draw concepts away from ki, we may see the removal of ki as a power source. Maybe?
Possibly I misread the article, but didn't it flat-out say they've scrapped ki as a power source, generally? Isn't that the point of the article?
Possibly I misread the article, but didn't it flat-out say they've scrapped ki as a power source, generally? Isn't that the point of the article?
While that is certainly a possibility, I do not think so at this time. Unless they determine that all their class concepts for the ki source can work in other sources, they may still have some left to put in it. Only time will tell if it remains a viable source.
EDIT: Rereading, it's pretty unambiguous that the "ki" power source is gone, since everything slotted into a different power source and lumping all the eastern classes together despite their thematic diversity was weird.
A samurai could be almost any class; much like 'pirate' it encompasses more of what a character is and does than simply its class.
A ninja is just a rogue, or practically any character that uses stealth, poison and misdirection to defeat opponents.
A shugenja/wu jen (sp? I dont really care) is just a sorcerer, wizard, warlock, shaman or cleric for all the difference it makes.
The Ki= Asiatic equation wasn't necessary. I would have liked a Disciple class a la "Vanguard", healing his friend by stealing surges from enemies
But well, if Ki as to disappear, then Psionic is not a bad choice for the monk.
I love the placing of Monks into psionics. I had never considered it, but as soon as I saw it, I was overjoyed. It makes complete sense, for the reasons they listed. I'm feeling the Monk more than I ever have before.
My only concern is that we won't get a soulknife base class since the monk is a psionic striker. We already have both the ranger/rogue and warlock/sorcerer doubling up, so I hope they'll do the right thing and put both in.
A samurai could be almost any class; much like 'pirate' it encompasses more of what a character is and does than simply its class.
Sure enough several of the existent classes can be a samurai in name. Fighters are obvious; Rangers, Swordmage, and even Avengers are also good fits depending on the flavor one is looking for. That's not the same thing as a Samurai class. It's not just about the name but taking a unified them of elements from popular fiction, that no other single class fully conveys, and tying them together under a single label.
Having a samurai class no more stops me from calling my fighter a samurai than having a paladin class stops me from calling my fighter a paladin. Classes are just labels for the convenience of the reader, and need have no barring on how a character is viewed in-game.
A ninja is just a rogue, or practically any character that uses stealth, poison and misdirection to defeat opponents.
Sure rogues make great mundane, real-world, style ninja, but they fail miserably at conveying the mystical abilities of a true fantasy ninja. Fortunately the designers seem to understand this, as of the classes mentioned, only samurai was singled out as probably not being a class.
I'm sad to see the Ki power source disappear - or , rather, I am sad to see that Ki was taken the wrong way to begin with. There are lot of things to do with new classes manipulating the Ki defined as "vitality" or "life energy" even without any "asian " feel.
The Ki= Asiatic equation wasn't necessary. I would have liked a Disciple class a la "Vanguard", healing his friend by stealing surges from enemies
I agree. It's as if the designers got overly focused on the monk and completely lost track of the greater picture that could have been the ki power source.
[INDENT]Design & Development: The Monk
The monk's central, mechanical conceit, full disciplines (more on those later), didn't lend itself well as the umbrella mechanic for a power source.[/INDENT]
Why did the full discipline mechanic need to be an umbrella? The authors were right about it not pointing to an entire power source, but I fail to see how that then leads to the conceit that there wasn't any conceptual design space in which the ki power source could exist.
My only concern is that we won't get a soulknife base class since the monk is a psionic striker. We already have both the ranger/rogue and warlock/sorcerer doubling up, so I hope they'll do the right thing and put both in.
Ah yes, the red-headed stepchild of the 3.5E psionic classes... I suppose its possible that it'll still get a 4E treatment, but I cant imagine why anyone would care.
Still, they DID make the 4E bard a pretty cool class for once which was surprising, so I guess anything's possible.
Ah yes, the red-headed stepchild of the 3.5E psionic classes... I suppose its possible that it'll still get a 4E treatment, but I cant imagine why anyone would care.
Maybe the soulknife wasn't as powerful as the psion or wilder, but it was a thousand times cooler than Generic Psionic Defender. Maybe the soulknife will kill the 'Generic Psionic Defender' and take its role.
Sounds to me like they "came to similar conclusions about matching them to different power sources" meaning that the ki power source is likely gone. Really, drawing power from within to do arcaney things feels arcane (that's the sorcerer's MO), and drawing it from the spirit world feels primal. (The primal power source, especially in the shaman, feels reminiscent of the eastern-flavored 3.X spirit shaman in places.)
Well, that and Martial sounding very Ki-esque as well. All those pushes and shoves and tons of spectacular physically themed utilities (regeneration, wall climb, standing high jumps etc), on top of the power coming from within, turned the Martial Power Source into Ki right from the start.
That being said, the very idea of a clicheed Ki Power Source equalling glorified "Eastern Power" sounds pretty stupid to me.
Incidently, for the Ninja being the rogue-with-mystical-stuff, I guess Shadow could become the Power Source of choice.
Regarding the Soulknife, why worry? The Martial character roles are 2 Strikers, 1 leader and 1 defender. The Arcane Power source "fuels" 2 strikers, 2 leaders (including the Artificer) on top of 1 each from the other classes.
If anything else fails, maybe there' ll be a Monk Build called Soulknife in the PHB 3 or, at least, in Psionic Power.
Primal does the whole 'transformation' type thing...basically somehow altering the user or battlefield. Martial is all the stuff you look at that say 'hey if I trained hard enough..or were stronger..etc..I could do that!'. Divine is all the classes that rely on the power of gods, requireing the wielder to basically work for one god (yeah I know how loose that is..trust me), you also have the channel divinity stuff for all of em. Arcane is..uhh....honestly a 'we gonna lump em all together' type thing right now.....the only similar thing is the arcane only feats they can take..honestly. Though at least on that part...the feats let them share some things that are class abilities for some individual arcane classes.
With that in mind....what would Ki be? What would all of the Ki classes have in common..have as a theme? How would you work that out? We know the full disaplin thing wouldn't work..period. So what would?
And, for the record, I too long for a Soulknife class. It was a very, very fun class to play. I took one of my longest running 3e characters from 5th to 35th level as a Soulknife, and loved it every step of the way. It just seems like it could so easily make an awesome 4e class.
In early press material, they spoke of smooshing good ideas for classes together, rather than making a seperate class for every concept - "the rogue kills the scout and takes his stuff". I can see combining the best parts of being a psychic warrior and a soulknife and combining them into one class. (Probably a defender.) The names of the 3.5 psionic classes are just names. (Also, 3.5 "psionics", while primarily referring the the power point-based magic system, also encompasses some mostly unrelated mechanical systems used by classes lumped in as psionic primarily by virtue of being in the psionics books.)
A quick point... Ki isn't necessarily "Gone" or "Scrapped"... but it IS empty for now. They have no classes planned to use it, but they have reserved the right to change their mind and start making some 3 or 4 years down the line.
While I suppose that that's technically true, I feel as if creating the Ki source down the line with the monk - a class more strongly associated with Ki in most people's minds than anything else - already placed in another power source is just extremely unlikely. It'd be like putting the barbarian and druid classes in some other source and then deciding later that they wanted to do Primal after all; not impossible, but it'd feel pretty weird.
With that in mind....what would Ki be? What would all of the Ki classes have in common..have as a theme? How would you work that out? We know the full disaplin thing wouldn't work..period. So what would?
The center concept of Ki (qui, chi) is Balance with the Flow of the World. It's not developing your mind so you can manipulate the world through sheer will, that's psionic. It's centering your mind so that the body does what it's suppose to do on it's own.
In a lot of way, Ki is like the point where Martial and Psionic power sources meet. It would be a high initiative power source. It's powers would mostly be of a physical nature (meaning no controller), and it's effects would be more based on movement then on damage. It's defender's would not wear armor, they would simply move out of the way, as they feel the flow of the universe. Their strikers wouldn't have multiple attacks, they would have higher damage due to unnatural precision, by knowing exactly when to throw. Their leaders don't heal from range, but they heal and lead next to their comrades, because they can't feel the flow of ki in a person from a distance.
Well, at least, if that was how I'd imagine it. Ki isn't about the mind. It's about flow.
(And as an aside, a Wu-Jen and a Shugenja are not Ki power sources. They're Elementist in nature.)
The center concept of Ki (qui, chi) is Balance with the Flow of the World. It's not developing your mind so you can manipulate the world through sheer will, that's psionic. It's centering your mind so that the body does what it's suppose to do on it's own.
In a lot of way, Ki is like the point where Martial and Psionic power sources meet. It would be a high initiative power source. It's powers would mostly be of a physical nature (meaning no controller), and it's effects would be more based on movement then on damage. It's defender's would not wear armor, they would simply move out of the way, as they feel the flow of the universe. Their strikers wouldn't have multiple attacks, they would have higher damage due to unnatural precision, by knowing exactly when to throw. Their leaders don't heal from range, but they heal and lead next to their comrades, because they can't feel the flow of ki in a person from a distance.
Well, at least, if that was how I'd imagine it. Ki isn't about the mind. It's about flow.
(And as an aside, a Wu-Jen and a Shugenja are not Ki power sources. They're Elementist in nature.)
I think this is the core problem with the Ki power source: for all things, the only real class that fits it is the Monk. Most other classes would fit another source, and it's rather useless to have a single class be the only form of a power source. When I think of all the character possibilities that might fit the Ki class, those possibilities also end up fitting the Monk all too well; that results in a poor concept for a power source, but great concept for a class.
Well, that and Martial sounding very Ki-esque as well. All those pushes and shoves and tons of spectacular physically themed utilities (regeneration, wall climb, standing high jumps etc), on top of the power coming from within, turned the Martial Power Source into Ki right from the start
Martial doesn't come from within. Martial comes from training. It comes from outside. Ki (if I'd have been designing it) would have come from the souls of one's ancestors, and from strengthening one's own soul. Maybe a Ki controller would call upon the souls of dangerous beasts. It would have eaten most of Incarnum, which had an uninspiring, truly terrible name.
I think there is a lot of pressure on th eteam to make the Monk as soon as possible, as its the last of the classes from the previous edition that has not been released, and if they decide not to do the Ki source in the next PHB, they will have to change the planned power source to make sure it gets in.
I personally think it's encouraging to think at this time they may develop all sorts of new classes for the Ki power source, if they decide to keep it, then squeezing another old class into a new power structure.
With that in mind....what would Ki be? What would all of the Ki classes have in common..have as a theme? How would you work that out? We know the full disaplin thing wouldn't work..period. So what would?
For me, Ki would be to Psionic what Divine is to Arcane. Divine is sort of a subset of magic, and ki would sort of be a subset of psionic. Its the results that would greatly differ.
Meaning, I'm thinking that psionic would use the mastery of the mind to create powers and effects. Thinking it makes it happen. Psions blast things apart by thinking their enemies dead or projecting their mind to overwhelm someone else's. Psionic classes (to me) would be Psions, Soulknives, Wilders, Psion Warriors and the like.
Ki, on the other hand, requires mastery of the body into a supernatural state. Sort of a "beyond martial" kind of effect. Ki masters turn their fist into a weapon more powerful than steel and shrug off status effects by sheer force of will. Ki would be the samurai, monk, ninja, shugenja and guru and wu jen-like classes.
Martial doesn't come from within. Martial comes from training. It comes from outside. Ki (if I'd have been designing it) would have come from the souls of one's ancestors, and from strengthening one's own soul.
Bolded emphasis mine, I guess we both are not exactly experts on that Ki stuff. But as far as I know Ki has nothing to do with souls per se, but is more akin to a concept of energy.
BUT: If Ki comes from within, how come you need Dojos and instructors for the practioners to master it or maybe just dabble into it? Training your mind and your physical abilities requires mental focussing on it, or rather the will to learn and master these techniques. In D&D terms, that's also what the Warlord, Ranger, Rogue, and Figther do.
Maybe a Ki controller would call upon the souls of dangerous beasts. It would have eaten most of Incarnum, which had an uninspiring, truly terrible name.
Incidentally, in D&D, your "Soul Caller" would called a Shaman with if all these Souls are spirits or a Necromancer if said souls are those of dead creatures.
I know this is but a wiki quote, but even it sheds some light on it.
Qi is a didactic concept in many Chinese, Korean and Japanese martial arts. Martial qigong is a feature of both internal and external training systems in China and other east Asian cultures.
But before we continue this debate with us both being clearly not experts on the matter of Ki, I rather we defer to Kensan Oni's expertise on the matter found here, in this very thread. It will safe us from a lot of further embarrassment and feeble attempts to outsmart each other.
The center concept of Ki (qui, chi) is Balance with the Flow of the World. It's not developing your mind so you can manipulate the world through sheer will, that's psionic. It's centering your mind so that the body does what it's suppose to do on it's own.
In a lot of way, Ki is like the point where Martial and Psionic power sources meet. It would be a high initiative power source. It's powers would mostly be of a physical nature (meaning no controller), and it's effects would be more based on movement then on damage. It's defender's would not wear armor, they would simply move out of the way, as they feel the flow of the universe. Their strikers wouldn't have multiple attacks, they would have higher damage due to unnatural precision, by knowing exactly when to throw. Their leaders don't heal from range, but they heal and lead next to their comrades, because they can't feel the flow of ki in a person from a distance.
Well, at least, if that was how I'd imagine it. Ki isn't about the mind. It's about flow.
The power of the psyche is what allowed one to control their Ki/Qui. It's all about will power. All about understanding and seeing the underlying truth in all things.
That's why the most important Chakrah is at the crown of the head. That's why some Asian cultures consider it offensive for others to even touch the head in certain situations.
The Ki/Psionic user is no tougher than the Martial character. He or she simply is better at perceiving the world. More disciplined. More focused. Honed mentally and spiritually to a superior level. At the end of the day, it's always about the mind/psyche. The body, if it's even relevant, is capable of the great things it does because of the discipline and will attained earlier.
Just like the psyche is not synonymous with energy blasts, moving stuff, making things bigger, or teleportation, but with enough discipline and focus, the Psion can manifest such powers. They manifest things externally and in explicit ways.
The Monk manifests internally, through enhancements of his/her body. Subtle psychometabolsim. Psionics no longer only describes vulgar external effects. It now also deals with the psyche, the soul, and the essence of consciousness and existence.
While I can agree with that stance to a degree, that's not what Psionic powers are traditionally about, especially when we look at Western Culture. It's not being in tune with oneself or ones body or reaching an understanding. It's about control.
I suppose the difference is like the distinction between arcane and divine power sources. It really is hard to argue the difference between Magic and Magic. There can even be arguement that since there must exist somewhere a god of magic and a god of the mind, if Arcane and Psycic is actually not Divine Magic anyway, but the fact is is they are all magic.
THe philosophy between Controling the world through the mind, and letting the world control your actions is pretty much the difference here. While I will accept that they seem to be the same from a certant point of view, they really don't feel that way to me.
I don't see a martial artist being in the same power group as a person who conjures a blade of energy. I don't see a zen archer (And I think we can have certant greek myths connected to that concept, actually) being the same power source as the person who mind blasts people. I realize that this is an opinion. It might mean that I just develop the Ki power source myself just as a mental exercise. I just don't see it as being the same as Psionic, though.
Tying the Ki Power Source explicitly to real-world beliefs about Ki is about as ridiculous and stereotypical as if the Divine Power Source could only worship Jesus.
That would be an accurate complaint, if "Experts" and "masters" of Ki didn't disagree all the time anyway. From, my perspective, you're the one who's stereotyping.
That would be an accurate complaint, if "Experts" and "masters" of Ki didn't disagree all the time anyway. From, my perspective, you're the one who's stereotyping.
Well, "experts" and "masters" of all religions disagree all the time, as well. The point is, no one person gets to say what's true and correct to the exclusion of every other voice. Naruto may be a mockery of traditional, historical ninjae, but it's still a show about ninjae.
I am interested in fantasy archetypes, in resonant motifs in storytelling. Honoring one's ancestors and drawing upon their strength to bolster your own has cross-cultural appeal. Tying the Ki Power Source explicitly to real-world beliefs about Ki is about as ridiculous and stereotypical as if the Divine Power Source could only worship Jesus.
That would be an accurate complaint, if "Experts" and "masters" of Ki didn't disagree all the time anyway. From, my perspective, you're the one who's stereotyping.
My sentiments exactly.
Stogoe, if you're interested in the Ancestral Power Shtick, I suggest taking a closer look at the Primal Power Source... that's where you can find them if you look closer.
Concerning Ki, I have to say that it still needs some resemblance to the real world concept of Ki, otherwise you might as well have an Arcane Power Source that comes from worshipping gods rather than the various arcane traditions that float around.
What I would like to see is a class that uses martial arts under the Martial power source.
What I would like to see is a class that uses martial arts under the Martial power source.
What do you call all the current martial classes? Weapon use is as much a 'martial art' as unarmed combat.
Being armed with a weapon you are trained with is inherently superior to being unarmed, anyway... the only exception is when you can back up your bare fists and feet with something supernatural like psionics.
Unarmed characters in D&D effectively have to be supernatural in some way.
[INDENT]Design & Development: The Monk
The monk's central, mechanical conceit, full disciplines (more on those later), didn't lend itself well as the umbrella mechanic for a power source.[/INDENT]
Why did the full discipline mechanic need to be an umbrella? The authors were right about it not pointing to an entire power source, but I fail to see how that then leads to the conceit that there wasn't any conceptual design space in which the ki power source could exist.
For all the power sources, the development team was trying to make something that would tie the classes together that were in that power source. For example, the umbrella for Divine is Channel Divinity. Martial Characters get bonuses to certain weapons (they are "trained" in weapons, thus their umbrella). I think you get the picture.
For all the power sources, the development team was trying to make something that would tie the classes together that were in that power source. For example, the umbrella for Divine is Channel Divinity. Martial Characters get bonuses to certain weapons (they are "trained" in weapons, thus their umbrella). I think you get the picture.
No, not really. You're right about channel divinity, but thats a rather small aspect of those classes after one considers all their other class features and powers.
As for martial, where are you getting that martial get a bonus based based on weapon. Only the fighter class get any weaponbased bonuses. Rogues and rangers have weapon based restrictions. Rogues get a boon with daggers and shurken, but that only so as to make those weapons comparable choices to military weapons. Finally, warlords completely lack any weapon specific benefits or restrictions.
Arcane certainly has nothing even close to resembling a umbrella mechanic. While primal has a unified theme of transformation, each class within that power source manifests that theme in mechanically distinct ways.
No, not really. You're right about channel divinity, but thats a rather small aspect of those classes after one considers all their other class features and powers.
As for martial, where are you getting that martial get a bonus based based on weapon. Only the fighter class get any weaponbased bonuses. Rogues and rangers have weapon based restrictions. Rogues get a boon with daggers and shurken, but that only so as to make those weapons comparable choices to military weapons. Finally, warlords completely lack any weapon specific benefits or restrictions.
Arcane certainly has nothing even close to resembling a umbrella mechanic. While primal has a unified theme of transformation, each class within that power source manifests that theme in mechanically distinct ways.
I'm only saying what I heard at Norwescon. From the game designers.
They claimed that they had an umbrella for each power source, and that some of the umbrellas were more readily apparent than others.
They could have been full of it, or they could be telling the truth. As long as I get cool options and fun stuff in PHB3, I wouldn't care if the Monks were part of the Rainbow Brite Power Source; just as long as they could justifiy it so it sat well with me. :D
Arcane certainly has nothing even close to resembling a umbrella mechanic.
Sure it does. Artificiality. In the entire arcane source there are maybe twenty spells that look like natural expressions of magic. Swordmages create Lassos out of lightning. Wizards can create a giant extraplanar House.
Even the sorcerer suffers from this.
What do you call all the current martial classes? Weapon use is as much a 'martial art' as unarmed combat.
Touche! I mean karate, jujitsu, kung fu, etc. if you are having difficulty understanding my meaning.
Being armed with a weapon you are trained with is inherently superior to being unarmed, anyway... the only exception is when you can back up your bare fists and feet with something supernatural like psionics.
Advanced weapon training need not be inherently superior to advanced unarmed combat training in a fantasy game.
Unarmed characters in D&D effectively have to be supernatural in some way.
I view this statement to be identical to someone saying that a fighter swinging a sword effectively has to be supernatural to be the equal of a wizard controlling the laws of physics through magic. 4E has already broken that barrier.
Sure it does. Artificiality. In the entire arcane source there are maybe twenty spells that look like natural expressions of magic. Swordmages create Lassos out of lightning. Wizards can create a giant extraplanar House.
Even the sorcerer suffers from this.
That's all flavor though. Power sources have unified flavor no doubt, but other than the rather minor example of channel divinity power sources don't really have unified mechanics.
What do you call all the current martial classes? Weapon use is as much a 'martial art' as unarmed combat.
Absolutely true, but completely irrelevant to what he meant, which you full-well understood.
Being armed with a weapon you are trained with is inherently superior to being unarmed, anyway... the only exception is when you can back up your bare fists and feet with something supernatural like psionics.
After seeing the Pumphrey brothers in action, I think I almost might prefer a sword to the face. Being struck by either of them at full force is literally the equivalent of being strapped to the front of a car and being crashed into a pole at 30 mph. And while they're certainly at the top of their game in their competitions, they're still not even the absolute best. That means there are other guys who can either hit harder, or do more with their hits. I prefer a sword to the face over them too.
Unarmed characters in D&D effectively have to be supernatural in some way.
It's most likely that any unarmed melee class would have been supernatural over martial, but martial characters can already do more than any conventional person trained in martial arts, so its hardly a stretch after watching the Pumphrey brothers and their rivals to think that an unarmed melee class could be solely of the martial power source and lay down as much smack as the current monk.
I also agree with another poster's response that if martial arts are martial arts, then martial characters can't be as powerful as supernatural characters in the first place, even WITH weapons...which in 4e, they of course ARE as powerful as supernatural classes.
After seeing the Pumphrey brothers in action, I think I almost might prefer a sword to the face. Being struck by either of them at full force is literally the equivalent of being strapped to the front of a car and being crashed into a pole at 30 mph. And while they're certainly at the top of their game in their competitions, they're still not even the absolute best. That means there are other guys who can either hit harder, or do more with their hits. I prefer a sword to the face over them too.
Seriously; unarmed < sword < gun, and if you think anything else then your grasp on reality is tenuous at best.
Also, I will agree with some that it was a mistake to scrap the entire Ki power source and put the Monk is Psionic, for all kinds of reasons.
For one, it was certainly a mistake to lump classes like the Wu Jen into the Ki power source in the first place. The Wu Jen has absolutely no real similarity to the Monk at any level, and easily falls into either Arcane or Elemental, so trying to use it to define the Ki power source would be as flawed and doomed to failure as using the Cleric to define the Martial power source.
Using the inability to give the Full Discipline mechanic to every class they had in the Ki power source at the time as an excuse to dismantle the power source is an even worse mistake. I mean, if the Wu Jen was still part of the list at the time, of course it wouldn't work! And even if it didn't work for a list of classes that excluded certain outliers like the Wu Jen, then it just means that you couldn't use that particular mechanic to unify the Ki power source. It certainly doesn't mean that it is impossible to create a mechanic to unify Ki.
Finally, even if you pared down the Ki power source down to just the Monk by giving away other traditional classes to other power sources (something I wholeheartedly agree that they should have done), it doesn't mean that the Ki power source should be scrapped. After all, if the basic concept is good then it should be easy to create entirely new classes to flesh out the power source, like how the Warlord, Avenger, and Warden add to Martial, Divine, and Primal. So what if the only old classes left in Ki would be the Monk and maybe the Samurai or Ninja? That is still two or so classes, around the same number used as the inspiration for Primal and Divine.
Unless there is something big that I am missing, the entire justification for scrapping Ki just doesn't make any sense to me.
Seriously; unarmed < sword < gun, and if you think anything else then your grasp on reality is tenuous at best.
In that case, even an idiot armed with a gun, or even a sword, should be able to go beat either Pumphrey brother. You go have a ball with that and tell me how it turns out.
Yes, the weapons are superior, but the weapons themselves are a relatively small fraction of a fight. They're just tools, and even the best tools aren't very good when used by someone who doesn't know how. Except perhaps for SMGs, which are "hold the trigger down...period"
In a lot of way, Ki is like the point where Martial and Psionic power sources meet.
Exactly. The problem with Ki is that it is nebulous enough to be included under other characters:
Mind over matter? Psionic.
Drawing on the power of the spirit realm? Primal.
Intense training of the body? Martial.
Conduit for a greater power? Arcane (for example Pact) or Divine (for example Invoker).
Ki may have a place in specific settings, but within the generic Points of Light that the core rulebooks assume, it really has no place. The Eastern fantasy inspired classes now fit into core classes:
From Complete Divine, "the shugenja us a divine spellcaster who casts spells by attuning himself to the primal energies around him and focusing such energy through his body to produce magical effects." This screams, to me at least, the 4th ed. Shaman or Druid. The nice thing about 4th edition is that the class structures lend themselves to expansion (the sorcerer is perfect example of this). If one wants a truer Shugenja than all one needs to do is introduce a class option that stresses elementalism.
The Samurai was covered in the Des&Dev article (and even then, a Fighter with the initiative improvement/quick draw chain of feats, a bastard sword, and whatever powers you think emulate how a fantasy Samurai should fight would probably be enough).
The Wu Jen never made any attempts at being anything but the eastern-flavored wizard. The stress on elemental magic was needed initially because of the lack of good elemental spells during the phase 1 releases of 3.0 and 3.5 (not counting 3rd party sources). Multiclass wizard with druid or shaman and you're good to go.
The Ninja, to quote Complete Adventurer, "blend their training in stealth and assassination with a focused mind." Multiclass a Rogue with a Monk or vice versa. Ninja may very well get a 4th edition make over (a la Paladin) if/when the Shadow power source comes along: most likely a more unique class that incorporates aspects from some of the Tome of Magic melee prestige classes, some stuff from Shadowdancer, and some new stuff.
Now this does not preclude Ki from use in a campaign as a story element. As an internal energy source it could be the thing that allows people to use magic or tap divine power or commune with nature.
This bit is somewhat OT as it covers the difference between armed vs unarmed combat.
Off topic; armed versus unarmed
I believe he was referring to the fact that using tools can increase performance, not that they are a be all-end all. While, as you noted, the Pumphrey brothers strike "at full force [with] the equivalent of being strapped to the front of a car and being crashed into a pole at 30 mph," and that, from the videos on on the G4 site, seems to be from limited motion impacts. Consider the following: they perform a full quarter arc rotation with maximum force provided by their muscles and the impact kinetic transference occurs of a surface area defined by an area on the forearm between wrist and elbow. Give them a 1 meter long steel rod with a diameter of 5 centimeters and they swing it with the same energy that they used to move their arm previously (technically a bit more as they now have the added mass of the rod). In the same time it took for them to move their forearm impact point an arc defined by their arm length, the rod impact point (let's say 3/4 of the way up from the grip) is moving in an arc defined by that +3/4 of a meter. More distance, same time, it is moving faster (this is the guiding principle for baseball bats, lacrosse sticks, tennis rackets, etc.). When the rod impacts it does so with high velocity and thus more kinetic energy transference is possible - the smaller impact point localizes the introduced stresses for more transference along that fracture point. So while being hit by them would really suck and quite possibly kill you if they hit the right point; taking a hit from one of them wielded a sword or hammer would absolutely wreck someone.
In that case, even an idiot armed with a gun, or even a sword, should be able to go beat either Pumphrey brother. You go have a ball with that and tell me how it turns out.
Yes, the weapons are superior, but the weapons themselves are a relatively small fraction of a fight. They're just tools, and even the best tools aren't very good when used by someone who doesn't know how. Except perhaps for SMGs, which are "hold the trigger down...period"
I believe he was referring to the fact that using tools can increase performance, not that they are a be all-end all. While, as you noted, the Pumphrey brothers strike "at full force [with] the equivalent of being strapped to the front of a car and being crashed into a pole at 30 mph," and that, from the videos on on the G4 site, seems to be from limited motion impacts. Consider the following: they perform a full quarter arc rotation with maximum force provided by their muscles and the impact kinetic transference occurs of a surface area defined by an area on the forearm between wrist and elbow. Give them a 1 meter long steel rod with a diameter of 5 centimeters and they swing it with the same energy that they used to move their arm previously (technically a bit more as they now have the added mass of the rod). In the same time it took for them to move their forearm impact point an arc defined by their arm length, the rod impact point (let's say 3/4 of the way up from the grip) is moving in an arc defined by that +3/4 of a meter. More distance, same time, it is moving faster (this is the guiding principle for baseball bats, lacrosse sticks, tennis rackets, etc.). When the rod impacts it does so with high velocity and thus more kinetic energy transference is possible - the smaller impact point localizes the introduced stresses for more transference along that fracture point. So while being hit by them would really suck and quite possibly kill you if they hit the right point; taking a hit from one of them wielded a sword or hammer would absolutely wreck someone.
In that case, even an idiot armed with a gun, or even a sword, should be able to go beat either Pumphrey brother. You go have a ball with that and tell me how it turns out.
Yes, the weapons are superior, but the weapons themselves are a relatively small fraction of a fight. They're just tools, and even the best tools aren't very good when used by someone who doesn't know how. Except perhaps for SMGs, which are "hold the trigger down...period"
Let me clarify for you.
Trained hand-to-hand combat < trained weapon combat < trained firearm combat.
I never meant to suggest that a trained unarmed combatant wouldnt have an advantage over any fool who picked up a sword or a gun for the first time in his life, only that compared to a person with equivalent training in actual weapons they arent that impressive. For all that you hold the Pumphrey brothers in such high esteem, they would be as dead as you or I facing an armed warrior from any period since the stone-age.
Let me clarify for you.
Trained hand-to-hand combat < trained weapon combat < trained firearm combat.
I never meant to suggest that a trained unarmed combatant wouldnt have an advantage over any fool who picked up a sword or a gun for the first time in his life, only that compared to a person with equivalent training in actual weapons they arent that impressive. For all that you hold the Pumphrey brothers in such high esteem, they would be as dead as you or I facing an armed warrior from any period since the stone-age.
Umm....if I am understanding, you have no problem playing a game where folks can shoot fire from their fingertips, mind flayers eat brains, dragons capture princesses, necromancers raise the dead, boots can make someone fly, rituals can control the weather, etc.
But if someone wants to play a karate master that is just as effective as a swordsman that is beyond your sensibilities?
Umm....if I am understanding, you have no problem playing a game where folks can shoot fire from their fingertips, mind flayers eat brains, dragons capture princesses, necromancers raise the dead, boots can make someone fly, rituals can control the weather, etc.
But if someone wants to play a karate master that is just as effective as a swordsman that is beyond your sensibilities?
For some settings in can be. I think I can accept the idea of an unarmed martial artist being as effective in the default implied setting of D&D. It's pushing it a bit as I've never really liked monks-- they've never been part of my experience with D&D until 3rd edition. BECMI didn't really have them. 2nd Ed AD&D had them but they weren't really "core". Then 3.0 hit and boom, there's this core monk class. I imagine my feelings are similar to those who dislike the dragonborn.
Now an unarmed martial artist who is so well trained as to tap into his inner strength and the flow of the universe such that he accomplishes great feats of martial prowess and demonstrates honest to goodness supernatural power?
Awesome.
I think Kensan_Oni was quite accurate in saying that the monk represents the point where Martial meets Psi. It's kind of like how the barbarian is the point where Martial meets Primal: he's very weapon focused, but goes into the supernatural via his rages, drawing on Primal power. Meanwhile, the monk's mastery of his own inner self through meditation and training allows him to exceed the martial flow, achieving the state of No-Mind, merging his consciousness with the flow of the world.
Secondly, I actually see great hope for the Soulknife. Either the psychic version of defending will devour it, allowing it to be reborn better than before...or we could easily improvise it.
Part of the monk article, after all, is the "monks treat their fists as X", giving them different stats for unarmed.
What is you had a "Soul Blade" feat that allowed you to choose a single weapon, and your unarmed attack was treated thus? It could be flavored as a certain combat style, or it could literally be a blade of your soul, personified as you like.
What is you had a "Soul Blade" feat that allowed you to choose a single weapon, and your unarmed attack was treated thus? It could be flavored as a certain combat style, or it could literally be a blade of your soul, personified as you like.
Given that the monk's unarmed strike is already pretty similar to a longsword, that could be a very compelling route to take. Other than their signature weapon, soulblades were always pretty similar to monks, and now that monks are psionic that similarity is only going to be stronger. So making Soulblade into a feat rather than a class might be the best approach.
Alternatively soulblade might be an alternate build for monks come Psionic Power. They would gain the souldbade class feature instead of unarmed combatant, which would basically let them manifest a weapon of their choice (chosen at character creation, retrainable with level up). The character could then take feats to gain the ability to manifest different weapons, using a minor action to change.
Given that the monk's unarmed strike is already pretty similar to a longsword, that could be a very compelling route to take. Other than their signature weapon, soulblades were always pretty similar to monks, and now that monks are psionic that similarity is only going to be stronger. So making Soulblade into a feat rather than a class might be the best approach.
Alternatively soulblade might be an alternate build for monks come Psionic Power. They would gain the souldbade class feature instead of unarmed combatant, which would basically let them manifest a weapon of their choice (chosen at character creation, retrainable with level up). The character could then take feats to gain the ability to manifest different weapons, using a minor action to change.
Or you could Fluff your fists as a mindblade. Incredible easy.
I don't think there has to be a mechanic in the monk class for a souldblade.
If the Soulblade becomes the Defender Class thats a different cockie of course :D
Or you could Fluff your fists as a mindblade. Incredible easy.
I don't think there has to be a mechanic in the monk class for a souldblade.
One cannot refluff the monk's "fists" into a heavy blade, axe, or hammer. One cannot refluff the monk's "fists" to be brutal, high crit, or light thrown. One cannot refluff the monk's "fists" to be +2 proficiency and deal 1d10 damage.
Umm....if I am understanding, you have no problem playing a game where folks can shoot fire from their fingertips, mind flayers eat brains, dragons capture princesses, necromancers raise the dead, boots can make someone fly, rituals can control the weather, etc.
But if someone wants to play a karate master that is just as effective as a swordsman that is beyond your sensibilities?
Thats not it at all.
Note that in my earlier post I said that a unarmed characters are fine as long as they have a supernatural explanation... but you cant really use the same power source for the martial classes which are all about effective weapon use to justify that a person can be just as effective without using a weapon at all.
If anything, my unarmed > melee weapon > ranged weapon IRL comparison was for the purpose of illustrating that it is silly to use real life as a basis for making a case that unarmed warriors are as effective as armed warriors without some sort of supernatural explanation.
Note that in my earlier post I said that a unarmed characters are fine as long as they have a supernatural explanation... but you cant really use the same power source for the martial classes which are all about effective weapon use to justify that a person can be just as effective without using a weapon at all.
Martial classes are not all about effective weapon use - see the Warlord.
I have no idea why there would have to be a supernatural explanation to turn an opponent's attacks against them. Somebody charges you, you use the opponent's momentum to flip them into the air - nothing supernatural about it.
One cannot refluff the monk's "fists" into a heavy blade, axe, or hammer. One cannot refluff the monk's "fists" to be brutal, high crit, or light thrown. One cannot refluff the monk's "fists" to be +2 proficiency and deal 1d10 damage.
No, but you CAN enchant your fists with Dynamic Weapon. Suddenly, yes, your mindblade can be whatever you want it to be.
Unarmed Strike does not normaly allow dual wielding with itself, but the Twinned enchantment would allow it, IMO.
There's sever other interesting combinations, I believe.
No, but you CAN enchant your fists with Dynamic Weapon. Suddenly, yes, your mindblade can be whatever you want it to be.
Unarmed Strike does not normaly allow dual wielding with itself, but the Twinned enchantment would allow it, IMO.
There's sever other interesting combinations, I believe.
Indeed there are several interesting options. Though both of those options you listed preclude ones "soulblade" from having any other enchantment, so no flaming soulaxe or twin blades of radiant light. Also, I find it unsatisfying to have to rely on specific magical enchantments to achieve a character concept that is fundamentally non-item dependent.
On a side note, it is questionable that the monk's unarmed strike cannot be dual wielded (or the unarmed strike of any other class, though only rangers could since unarmed attacks normally lacks the off-hand keyword). The fact that the monk's unarmed technique specificaly includes the off-hand keyword is already a good indication that it can indeed be dual wielded, though only t limited effect without any dual wielding attack powers. To put it another way, a monk with two daggers can dual wiled, why should it be any harder for them to do so with both their hands empty?
As for the original discussion of the role of the samurai, I have to say that I don't like dumping that concept into being a mere sub-class like the Gladiator. There are simply too many elements to the samurai cultural mythos to really fit into anything less than a full class (or several full classes, even). It just doesn't seem to be the best approach...
You're own words are what the devs said to justify making it an MC class like the gladiator and assassin. The samurai contains too many concepts and roles to be a single class but it is NOT a power source. The best solution is to make it an MC class that can be applied to a selection of base classes (even of different power sources) to turn that base class into a Samurai. No samurai would be a master of all aspects of the 'Samurai Way' even if it was a single class to itself (see 3/3.5 bard).
It works better as an MC class. See how you want your samurai to be: swordsman, military commander, temple guard, bowmaster, near ninja; then take the base class to fit that aspect and take the feats required to become a samurai. In the list I gave the classes would be fighter, warlord, paladin, ranger, rogue. Maybe a shifter samurai would be a warden rather than a fighter or paladin, and an eladrin samurai might be a swordmage.
This method also fits both the pop-culture and historical samurai, which was a social station and was not a measure of ones capabilities with any particular combat style, or combat at all in some cases.
The ninja may go the same route or it may not, it depends on how shackled by preconceptions the name would be for it to be fleshed out as a stand alone class or if it fits better as an MC class feat tree akin to the concept of ninja were as diverse in skills as samurai and even in Naruto they had very little in common other than being from a village of ninja. The barbarian gets away with this because even though they come from a 'barbarian village' not all members of the village are the barbarian class (though they are all likely to be primal if they have a class at all).
I think the major issue with ki is that it does fall on the line between martial and psionic with a lot of 'source' overlap with psionic so they've been merged. The monk may push into martial some but I suspect the other psionic classes will be less martial oriented. I also don't see the monk as overly martial since they don't wear armor and only use a few basic weapons. I always saw martial as being focused on using tools: weapons, military tactics, traps, and picks; not just about training and skills.
Until psionic every power source we've had is based on some source outside the person rather than from within. They could have called it ki instead of psionics but either way they'd upset people. I think in the end they just felt psionic carried less baggage than ki does when it comes to what people expect to see.
The ninja may go the same route or it may not, it depends on how shackled by preconceptions the name would be for it to be fleshed out as a stand alone class or if it fits better as an MC class feat tree akin to the concept of ninja were as diverse in skills as samurai and even in Naruto they had very little in common other than being from a village of ninja. The barbarian gets away with this because even though they come from a 'barbarian village' not all members of the village are the barbarian class (though they are all likely to be primal if they have a class at all).
The barbarian analogy could be extended to any class concept. All nobles of a certain region might be samurai by title, but that's not the same as having the samurai class. Some individuals might even have all the talents and skills associated with the name without being of noble blood (Mitsurugi of Soulcalibur). A samurai class doesn't have to cover ever possible samurai concept, only key archetypes that are uniquely samurai and not well covered by any one class.
As for Naruto, of course all those ninja are different classes. In a campaign were all the PCs are "ninja" the name becomes their unifying element (power source) or culture (flavor), while their specialties (class) would be what would define them as hero. That being said, one can still get quite a bit of mileage out of a team of characters who are all multiclass Ninja/??? or ???/Ninja or hybrid Ninja|???.
Touche! I mean karate, jujitsu, kung fu, etc. if you are having difficulty understanding my meaning.
I'd be willing to bet good money that there will be a Monk multiclass feat that gives you unrestricted use of the Monk's unarmed strike. I'd be very surprised if they waited until Psychic Power instead of just putting it in phb3.
Exactly. The problem with Ki is that it is nebulous enough to be included under other characters:
Mind over matter? Psionic.
Drawing on the power of the spirit realm? Primal.
Intense training of the body? Martial.
Conduit for a greater power? Arcane (for example Pact) or Divine (for example Invoker).
Actually, it is really easy to give Ki a specific feel and flavor. I think the best definition of Ki is an internal energy that a skilled master of Ki can use to perform supernatural physical feats and fire of blasts of spiritual energy. Good 3E examples of Ki using classes under this definition would be the Monk and the Soulknife.
I am aware that this falls under the realm of Psionics, but I argue that this is only the case because Psionics has become too bloated of a power source. Psionics has become a catch-all for any kind of internal supernatural power, without regard to the wildly varying natures of those powers. In my opinion, Psionics should return to its roots as purely mental powers: telepathy, telekinesis, empathy, precognition, etc. It is still easily possible to create multiple Psionic classes, even using nothing but such purely mental powers.
In other words, I think D&D would be better served by breaking what is currently Psionics into two separate, more focused, power sources.
Actually, it is really easy to give Ki a specific feel and flavor. I think the best definition of Ki is an internal energy that a skilled master of Ki can use to perform supernatural physical feats and fire of blasts of spiritual energy. Good 3E examples of Ki using classes under this definition would be the Monk and the Soulknife.
I am aware that this falls under the realm of Psionics, but I argue that this is only the case because Psionics has become too bloated of a power source. Psionics has become a catch-all for any kind of internal supernatural power, without regard to the wildly varying natures of those powers. In my opinion, Psionics should return to its roots as purely mental powers: telepathy, telekinesis, empathy, precognition, etc. It is still easily possible to create multiple Psionic classes, even using nothing but such purely mental powers.
In other words, I think D&D would be better served by breaking what is currently Psionics into two separate, more focused, power sources.
It's only really "bloated" if there's too many classes that fall under it's umbrella. Right now we've got, what? Five maybe? You want it trimmed down more?
Actually, it is really easy to give Ki a specific feel and flavor. I think the best definition of Ki is an internal energy that a skilled master of Ki can use to perform supernatural physical feats and fire of blasts of spiritual energy. Good 3E examples of Ki using classes under this definition would be the Monk and the Soulknife.
I am aware that this falls under the realm of Psionics, but I argue that this is only the case because Psionics has become too bloated of a power source. Psionics has become a catch-all for any kind of internal supernatural power, without regard to the wildly varying natures of those powers. In my opinion, Psionics should return to its roots as purely mental powers: telepathy, telekinesis, empathy, precognition, etc. It is still easily possible to create multiple Psionic classes, even using nothing but such purely mental powers.
In other words, I think D&D would be better served by breaking what is currently Psionics into two separate, more focused, power sources.
I kind of agree with you, but I think the best solution is to leave psionics as is, and have the focus be driven by the individual classes. The psion can have the mind/telepathy powers and such, and the monk can have the psychometabolic type powers that control and enhance the body. The monk could even have a little precognition (during combat, like jedi). Hopefully they completely get rid of some of the more flashy stuff that treads into wizard territory.
Also, for the people who want to keep the ki power source, what classes would you use to populate it? I always thought it sounded like a power source specifically to justify the monk, with the other classes being fillers. I see no need for a samarai to be ki. Ninja is the only one I could really see belonging to ki, but I personally like the idea of a shadow sourced ninja better. So what else would really belong to it? How would the ki power source operate? Would there be ki classes that weren't thematically Asian?
It's only really "bloated" if there's too many classes that fall under it's umbrella. Right now we've got, what? Five maybe? You want it trimmed down more?
Actually, I think a power source can be flawed if it is too unfocused. If a power source has a solid, focused basis of its flavor, it is really easy to build upon that foundation to create interesting and original classes. I think Primal is a good example of this. The Primal power source is based on the flavor of the old Druid class, and is pretty focused; all classes in the Primal power source have a strong connection to nature and transform by channeling the power of nature/animal spirits in some way or another. With that concept serving as a solid foundation, the WotC created several classes that have never been seen before in D&D: the Shaman, Warden, and Barbarian (which is really only superficially similar to the old 3E Barbarian).
On the other hand, lets look at a poorly defined Power Source: Arcane. There doesn't seem to be a strong central concept to the Arcane power source other than "its classes use magic, except not Divine or Primal magic". As a result, the Arcane power source lacks unifying flavor or mechanics. It is nothing more than a hodgepodge of classes that have been shoehorned into it because they don't really fit elsewhere. What do the Bard and the Warlock really have in common? "Arcane" doesn't really seem to mean anything. And a larger problem that comes as a result of Arcane's vagueness is that it threatens to gobble up Power Source concepts that do have a strong unifying theme. People are already arguing that Shadow and Elemental might fit better under Arcane, and they haven't even seen the power sources yet!
As it stands, I think Psionics is threatening to be as vague and unfocused as Arcane, particularly if it is gobbling up the Monk, which wasn't originally designed as a Psionic class in the first place.
Actually, I think a power source can be flawed if it is too unfocused.
Flawed, sure I can understand. But bloated means something in particular that psionic just doesn't seem.
As it stands, I think Psionics is threatening to be as vague and unfocused as Arcane, particularly if it is gobbling up the Monk, which wasn't originally designed as a Psionic class in the first place.
That depends on your definitions of "originally" and "in the first place", doesn't it? Just coming from all the posters who said their first experience with Monk was as a psionic kit.
Flawed, sure I can understand. But bloated means something in particular that psionic just doesn't seem.
I meant conceptually bloated: the Psionic Power Source seems to be trying to cover too many concepts and classes, some of which could serve as an entire Power Source in of themselves.
That depends on your definitions of "originally" and "in the first place", doesn't it? Just coming from all the posters who said their first experience with Monk was as a psionic kit.
I meant that when the WotC designers sat down to design the Monk for 4E, it seems like they original set out to design a class for what was at the time the Ki Power Source. As far as I can tell, their original design for the Ki Monk remains intact for the current Psionic Monk, except they substituted the word Psionic for Ki.
You're own words are what the devs said to justify making it an MC class like the gladiator and assassin.
If you think that my argument is the same as one that justifies making Samurai a MC class, then I must not have phrased it clearly enough.
The samurai contains too many concepts and roles to be a single class but it is NOT a power source.
Well, sure, the idea of a "samurai" is both too big for a single class and it certainly isn't a power source. That doesn't mean the best answer is to reduce it to something less than a single class. The best answer is to find some element of what it means to be a "samurai" that isn't covered by classes like the Fighter of Ranger already and to turn that into a workable class that can stand on its own, or maybe even multiple classes spread across different power sources. I mean, I have argued in the past that you could probably put the name "samurai" on classes that can be as different as a Martial Striker or a Ki Controller, and that these different classes could play completely different from each other.
For example, one idea I like for a Samurai class would be an unarmored warrior who has high mobility and supernatural skill with weapons. Such a class would be capable of essentially teleporting and attacking at long range with a sword by launching out energy shockwave slashes. I like the idea of even giving close burst sword strikes and other area of effect attacks with melee weapons. This class would have nothing but powers with the "Weapon" keyword, not use an Implement at all. This kind of class would embody an idea of "samurai" that is fairly common in pop-culture that is not otherwise seen in 4E.
The best solution is to make it an MC class that can be applied to a selection of base classes (even of different power sources) to turn that base class into a Samurai. No samurai would be a master of all aspects of the 'Samurai Way' even if it was a single class to itself (see 3/3.5 bard).
It works better as an MC class. See how you want your samurai to be: swordsman, military commander, temple guard, bowmaster, near ninja; then take the base class to fit that aspect and take the feats required to become a samurai. In the list I gave the classes would be fighter, warlord, paladin, ranger, rogue. Maybe a shifter samurai would be a warden rather than a fighter or paladin, and an eladrin samurai might be a swordmage.
You know, I really don't see the point of this. What would a multi-class only class be able to add that would make such different classes any more of a "samurai" than they are already? I have no problem with saying a Fighter or a Rogue can be a samurai (in the title and ideal sense) even if they do not have any connection to a Samurai class whatsoever. And I don't think there is anything you can equally add to both a Warden and a Paladin that would make them both recognizable as a "samurai". The idea of what it means to be a "samurai" is far too conflicted and confused for there to be one clear idea that unifies everything called that word.
This method also fits both the pop-culture and historical samurai, which was a social station and was not a measure of ones capabilities with any particular combat style, or combat at all in some cases.
I don't think it fits pop-culture samurai simply because it means certain significant pop-culture ideas of the samurai get excluded, and I don't think the historical title of samurai is even relevant to this discussion.
The ninja may go the same route or it may not, it depends on how shackled by preconceptions the name would be for it to be fleshed out as a stand alone class or if it fits better as an MC class feat tree akin to the concept of ninja were as diverse in skills as samurai and even in Naruto they had very little in common other than being from a village of ninja. The barbarian gets away with this because even though they come from a 'barbarian village' not all members of the village are the barbarian class (though they are all likely to be primal if they have a class at all).
I think the Barbarian is a perfect example of why the Samurai and Ninja deserve their own classes. Of course not everyone in a "barbarian village" would have the Barbarian class. At the same time, there is a very strong idea of the "barbarian berserker" that is rooted in historical fact and is seen throughout folklore and pop culture that deserves particular representation in the game. They could have just made the Barbarian a multi-class only class designed to be added on to Fighters and such, but they didn't, and the result was a fairly rich and interesting class. I think the Samurai would be the same.
Honestly, I think the multi-class class idea only really works for classes that have fairly limited concept to begin with, or unresolvable extreme overlap with a more iconic existing class. I don't think the Samurai suffers that, so it is fine being a normal class.
I think the major issue with ki is that it does fall on the line between martial and psionic with a lot of 'source' overlap with psionic so they've been merged. The monk may push into martial some but I suspect the other psionic classes will be less martial oriented. I also don't see the monk as overly martial since they don't wear armor and only use a few basic weapons. I always saw martial as being focused on using tools: weapons, military tactics, traps, and picks; not just about training and skills.
Until psionic every power source we've had is based on some source outside the person rather than from within. They could have called it ki instead of psionics but either way they'd upset people. I think in the end they just felt psionic carried less baggage than ki does when it comes to what people expect to see.
I'll just again say that I don't think Ki and Psionics need to be merged. If nothing else, I think Psionics should stick to being something that doesn't rely on weapons, direct physical contact, or intense physical training, while I think Ki should focus exactly on those things. Psionics should be Implement based and weapon-independent, while Ki should be dependent on weapon choice and not use Implements. In my mind, the central gimmick of Psionics is telekinesis, the ability to move the physical using nothing but mental and spiritual effort, while the main ability of Ki is to affect mental and spiritual things using physical means. They are complimentary opposites, not the same thing.
Also, for the people who want to keep the ki power source, what classes would you use to populate it? I always thought it sounded like a power source specifically to justify the monk, with the other classes being fillers. I see no need for a samarai to be ki. Ninja is the only one I could really see belonging to ki, but I personally like the idea of a shadow sourced ninja better. So what else would really belong to it? How would the ki power source operate? Would there be ki classes that weren't thematically Asian?
This is a pretty good question.
Well, the Monk is certainly an obvious choice for Ki, even if I really wish they would have replaced the name and created a proper Divine monk class based around actual religious monks, such as the heroic Buddhist Monks you see so often in asian pop culture.
I think that Ki indeed would be useful for creating a good Samurai class, such as the one I described in my last post in this thread. I like to think of Ki as a power source built around using the weapons of the Martial power source in a more supernatural way, and I would like to see a Ki swordmaster. Actually, I am more interested in seeing that kind of class than in seeing a class called the Samurai. I really liked how close the 3.5E Swordsage came to the idea, and I doubt we would see something quite like in the Psionic power source, since there are so many other ideas competing for limited space and class slots...
I also would like to see a Ki archer class. The game could really use a dedicated ranged weapon class other than the Ranger. A Ki archer could conceivably do some pretty impressive things, like cause arrows to explode midair, shoot arrows that are charged with spiritual power, or even shoot an arrow that splits into a mass of energy arrows that fall like rain.
In addition, I am one of those people who think the Soulknife works better as a Ki class than as a Psionic class.
As for the Ninja, though, I would rather see an Arcane or Elemental Ninja (espeically Elemental) over a Ki or Shadow Ninja.
So basically, I don't think every class in Ki would need to be asian in origin, but I do want the power source as a whole to stick to the basic concept of focusing spiritual power through physical weapons and attacks that you see so often in asian pop culture. I think that allows quite a few class concepts.
one idea I like for a Samurai class would be an unarmored warrior who has high mobility and supernatural skill with weapons. Such a class would be capable of essentially teleporting and attacking at long range with a sword by launching out energy shockwave slashes. I like the idea of even giving close burst sword strikes and other area of effect attacks with melee weapons. This class would have nothing but powers with the "Weapon" keyword, not use an Implement at all. This kind of class would embody an idea of "samurai" that is fairly common in pop-culture that is not otherwise seen in 4E.
And some would argue that Samurai should be proud, horse riding, scale-mail wearing archers because it is more historic. If anything, a thread like this shows the problems Des&Dev have with something like the Ki power source and ideas like Samurai and Ninja. They mean too many different things to different people. By not providing a concrete "ruling" on subject matter they allow people the freedom to house rule in material as needed to fit the conception at the gaming table. One could build Swordmage to do what TwinBahamut describes and say, "He uses Ki instead of Arcane."
And some would argue that Samurai should be proud, horse riding, scale-mail wearing archers because it is more historic. If anything, a thread like this shows the problems Des&Dev have with something like the Ki power source and ideas like Samurai and Ninja.
I agree, those concepts are so common outside of D&D and have such indepth real world history, that people get way too hung up on whats "true" or "more commonly depicted"
I don't have anything against Ninjas or Samurai; In fact, one of the reasons I'm against them having their own class, is that it would take away from other classes that can use the character concepts just as well. I think Barbarian and Paladin make great Samurai, and I wouldn't want one of my players feeling like their Samurai is less of a Samurai because there's a class called that. That's the problem with giving a style a whole class to itself.
And some would argue that Samurai should be proud, horse riding, scale-mail wearing archers because it is more historic. If anything, a thread like this shows the problems Des&Dev have with something like the Ki power source and ideas like Samurai and Ninja. They mean too many different things to different people.
This is why classes have multiple builds. If rangers can be archers, dervishes, and beast-tamers all rolled into one class than I should think it would be possible to make a decent samurai class that covers the most important elements.
While archery and horsemanship were important aspects of historical samurai, those elements are typically downplayed or even ignored in most popular fiction. Horsemanship is especially tricky to implement in a game which has roaming underground labyrinths as a core concept, so it's probably best to leave the samurai's horsemanship in the same place as it is for every class (feats). As for archery, given the lack of focus given to that aspect in popular fiction, proficiency with bows should more than suffice. For those insistent that their samurai be an archer their is always multiclassing, though there could still be ample potential for an archer samurai build in one of the power books (bard got one).
As I see it their are two key samurai archetypes that are most prevalent in popular fiction, easily distinguished by their dress.
- One wears cloth and moves about with blinding speed strike down enemies with a single blow. Give them DEX as a secondary stat, a class feature to make their cloth armor as good as hide, and striker as sub-roll.
- The other is what D&D has classicaly focused on with its samurai. They wear heavy armor (probably scale), and can scatter whole swaths of enemies with a mighty shout (most likely pointing to controller as a secondary roll), CHA would probably be a good secondary.
By not providing a concrete "ruling" on subject matter they allow people the freedom to house rule in material as needed to fit the conception at the gaming table.
People are always free regardless of what WotC of the cost implements. The existence of the barbarian class doesn't prevent playing the savage wild man concept using fighter, ranger, or any other class.
Actually, it is really easy to give Ki a specific feel and flavor. I think the best definition of Ki is an internal energy that a skilled master of Ki can use to perform supernatural physical feats and fire of blasts of spiritual energy. Good 3E examples of Ki using classes under this definition would be the Monk and the Soulknife.
I am aware that this falls under the realm of Psionics, but I argue that this is only the case because Psionics has become too bloated of a power source. Psionics has become a catch-all for any kind of internal supernatural power, without regard to the wildly varying natures of those powers. In my opinion, Psionics should return to its roots as purely mental powers: telepathy, telekinesis, empathy, precognition, etc. It is still easily possible to create multiple Psionic classes, even using nothing but such purely mental powers.
In other words, I think D&D would be better served by breaking what is currently Psionics into two separate, more focused, power sources.
But that is the nature of a power source. A power source isn't as much about how the powers look and manifest, but where they come from. It's why so many have trouble grasping Arcane. They arcane classes all channel and manifest arcane energy a different way but they all draw on the same source. Martial and Divine arent' as distinct in that regard since with Divine they all have Channel Divinity so it makes a clear mechanic to go with the power source, and martial can't do anything without a weapon for the most part (warlords aren't all weapon focused but they do get weapon powers and training in weapons). Even primal has a clear mechanic: spirits that are either summoned or transform the characters body in some way.
When it comes to a power source ki and psionic are pretty much the same thing. The only difference is a cultural perception of where that power actually originates. With Asian cultures that use 'ki' (or similar) they see the power as coming from 'air' or 'breath'. Western cultures that talk of psionics think in modern scientific terms and that it's some sort of electrical impulses in the brain. In pre-modern times psionic would be thought of more as being 'breath' or 'soul' (and its base word psyche).
Many seers had a 'gift of sight' that was internal (and therefore psionic under 4e terms) but was called magic (so presumably arcane). When you strip cultural classifications nad look at an archetypes actual origin of power you find that a Greek or Romani seer (not oracle who would be Divine) and a Shaolin Kung Fu master both draw from the same source of power: their own mind trained to a point they can go past what a person can with just physical training. That's also what sets the monk apart from Martial as a powre source since its their mental discipline, not rote training or skill with a weapon, that gives them their powers.
As I see it their are two key samurai archetypes that are most prevalent in popular fiction, easily distinguished by their dress.
- One wears cloth and moves about with blinding speed strike down enemies with a single blow. Give them DEX as a secondary stat, a class feature to make their cloth armor as good as hide, and striker as sub-roll.
- The other is what D&D has classicaly focused on with its samurai. They wear heavy armor (probably scale), and can scatter whole swaths of enemies with a mighty shout (most likely pointing to controller as a secondary roll), CHA would probably be a good secondary.
This right here is basically two builds of a fighter that we just haven't seen. Nothing in those descriptions depicts anything other than a specialized fighter. If not a full build than as the Devs have talked about an MC feat tree to give those bits to the fighter that they are missing. Then you just say your fighter is now a Samurai. This seems to be part of the problem with samurai, for many people they're just the Azn fighter. The barbarian comes close to a fighter but their rages (not just in 4e but in pop-culture) is what sets them apart from a normal fighter. The only thing that really sets the samurai apart is their ties to being a noble usually (or ronin for being cast out or loss of lord) and that they are Asian not European. There's no real mechanical difference, just a cultural one.
The center concept of Ki (qui, chi) is Balance with the Flow of the World. It's not developing your mind so you can manipulate the world through sheer will, that's psionic. It's centering your mind so that the body does what it's suppose to do on it's own.
...
Well, at least, if that was how I'd imagine it. Ki isn't about the mind. It's about flow.
Another way of putting this is "mind vs self".
Mechanically, both are focused on something within. Arcane and Divine are both external: one unlocks the secret workings of the universe and shapes them; the other calls on the power of the Gods. Primal is a bit of both: it pulls the ancient world-spirits into yourself to empower you. Mind and Self both take something that starts internally and focus it outward.
But Mind / Psionics is about intellect. Not necessarily smarts, but a the power of thought. It naturally ties to Int, and is (as said above) about control. It's like arcane, except that the power comes from inside your head. Ki / Self / Soul is about channeling the power of your own spirit, and coming to terms with your very self. There are similarities to Primal and maybe Divine, and it's naturally Wis driven.
In the sense of "well of internal power", Psi and Self are are pretty similar. In the "feel" of what this means, they are quite different. Psi is about power projection, Self is about unification and balance. In many ways, the Self controller has the same issues as the Martial controller: controllers don't fit well with self-augmentation power sources. In contrast, Psi is a hand-in-glove fit for controller. But what the wizard achieves through skill and learning, the psionic achieves through discipline and sheer force of will.
Which might end up being an issue for -kineticist psionics - the difference between them and arcanists is basically fluff. The telepathy and psyche side of things leaves a lot more room for expansion.
This right here is basically two builds of a fighter that we just haven't seen. Nothing in those descriptions depicts anything other than a specialized fighter. If not a full build than as the Devs have talked about an MC feat tree to give those bits to the fighter that they are missing. Then you just say your fighter is now a Samurai. This seems to be part of the problem with samurai, for many people they're just the Azn fighter. The barbarian comes close to a fighter but their rages (not just in 4e but in pop-culture) is what sets them apart from a normal fighter. The only thing that really sets the samurai apart is their ties to being a noble usually (or ronin for being cast out or loss of lord) and that they are Asian not European. There's no real mechanical difference, just a cultural one.
The build/style isn't the only thing that makes a class. You are forgetting the attack and utility powers the class would get. Would super natural attacks like Air Slashes really fit the Fighter? Its a rather common power for fantasy samurai to have.
The build/style isn't the only thing that makes a class. You are forgetting the attack and utility powers the class would get. Would super natural attacks like Air Slashes really fit the Fighter? Its a rather common power for fantasy samurai to have.
A little off-topic here... but can you give those of us who may not be familiar with many examples of "fantasy samurai" some sources where we might find common usage of techniques like Air Slashes ?
Actually I usually see it more with the non-samurai fighters: Inuyasha, kendo masters, Soul Reapers. It seems to be a staple of anime sword fighting, not of samurai in particular.
And why wouldn't you have air slashes with a 4e fighter, though they'd likely be paragon or epic level powers. That might even be a power granted with the Samurai MC feat tree, extending the reach of the base class weapon powers by 1-2 squares.
A little off-topic here... but can you give those of us who may not be familiar with many examples of "fantasy samurai" some sources where we might find common usage of techniques like Air Slashes ?
Final Fantasy.
For example, one idea I like for a Samurai class would be an unarmored warrior who has high mobility and supernatural skill with weapons. Such a class would be capable of essentially teleporting and attacking at long range with a sword by launching out energy shockwave slashes. I like the idea of even giving close burst sword strikes and other area of effect attacks with melee weapons.
Sounds suspiciously like an Avenger to me.
- Unarmored, high mobility = Check!
- supernatural skill with weapons (Oath of Enmity) = Check!
- energy shockwaves, close bursts: Implement powers Check!
This class would have nothing but powers with the "Weapon" keyword, not use an Implement at all. This kind of class would embody an idea of "samurai" that is fairly common in pop-culture that is not otherwise seen in 4E.
Area Weapon attacks at range are too much stepping on the ranged strikers' and controllers' toes. (but mind, the 3rd level avenger encounter already
Knowing from experience that even a Close Burst 1 attack with a Waraxe can be devastating, I don't like the thought of what an Area Burst 1' in 10 attack with a Mordenkrad can do. Implement Powers are there for a reason, y'know.
You do know that the Samurai Image in pop culture encompasses way too much to be merely defined by a smattering of anime tropes? So, I 'm afraid what your suggestions disqualified themselves. Even more, for every Anime Samurai, you 'd have to include a historical Samurai for the history nuts (or even a couple of them depending on the period), a Ronin for the Samurai movie fans, a Samurai based very closely on actual martial arts for the people who practice said martial arts, and maybe even a western Christopher Lambert/Sean Connery Immortal Samurai for the Highlander Fans. Hence why I understand that the Samurai will be some sort of Multiclassing mechanic available for many a class 'cos it 's either that or a bleedin' entire Power Source called "Samurai" to appease the myriad of Samurai Fans.
In short, what Ncnancy said:
I don't have anything against Ninjas or Samurai; In fact, one of the reasons I'm against them having their own class, is that it would take away from other classes that can use the character concepts just as well. I think Barbarian and Paladin make great Samurai, and I wouldn't want one of my players feeling like their Samurai is less of a Samurai because there's a class called that. That's the problem with giving a style a whole class to itself.
QFT.
Other classes might include rogue (Iajitsu master) and Fighter. (more TWF)
But that is the nature of a power source. A power source isn't as much about how the powers look and manifest, but where they come from. It's why so many have trouble grasping Arcane. They arcane classes all channel and manifest arcane energy a different way but they all draw on the same source.
And what is Arcane energy? Warlocks draw upon the power of powerful Fey or Devils. Sorcerers' draw upon the energy latent in their own bodies. Wizards, Bards, and Swordmages lack any clear flavor to their abilities at all. So what is this Arcane energy that defines all Arcane classes? It is the energy that Arcane classes use. It is a circular definition with no meaning.
After all, "arcane energy" is a justification created after the Arcane Power Source was already created. Power Sources aren't really about where the power comes from, they are about what tropes and archetypes unify a set of classes. The only thing unifying Arcane classes is that they follow the loosely defined archetype of traditional fantasy magic.
When it comes to a power source ki and psionic are pretty much the same thing. The only difference is a cultural perception of where that power actually originates. With Asian cultures that use 'ki' (or similar) they see the power as coming from 'air' or 'breath'. Western cultures that talk of psionics think in modern scientific terms and that it's some sort of electrical impulses in the brain. In pre-modern times psionic would be thought of more as being 'breath' or 'soul' (and its base word psyche).
This kind of wordplay and justification are pretty meaningless. Power sources are about tropes and archetypes above all else, and the basic archetypes underlying psychic power and ki are very different.
Most psychics in various forms of fiction share several distinct qualities:
1) Psychic power tends to be an innate gift that people either have or don't, and tends to be rare.
2) Psychic power only requires thought in order to be used, not physical action, and thus doesn't require any physical training.
3) There exists a pretty distinctive list of psychic powers commonly seen in various forms of fiction, including pyrokinesis, telekinesis, empathy, telepathy, precognition, and teleportaion.
Examples of this kind of psychic power: Most Science fiction, including Star Trek and Babylon 5. The Dragonriders of Pern and Heralds of Valdemar series. Much more.
On the other hand, Ki (as I have been arguing for) is also dominated by several tropes:
1) Ki power is something that anyone can use with the right training.
2) Ki is connected strongly with physical training and the martial arts, and is often used as part of unarmed and weapon attacks.
3) Common Ki powers include punches charged with energy, energy blasts, and a burst of energy released from a palm strike that disrupt internal organs.
Ki itself is a collection of tropes originating in Wuxia, other Hong Kong Kung Fo movies, and Japanese anime like Dragon Ball Z, Yu Yu Hakusho, and Bleach. Note that the specific term "Ki" is rarely used, and other substitutes like "spirit energy" are common used.
So I don't think Ki and Psychic power have anything in common at all.
Sounds suspiciously like an Avenger to me.
- Unarmored, high mobility = Check!
- supernatural skill with weapons (Oath of Enmity) = Check!
- energy shockwaves, close bursts: Implement powers Check!
That is not a very good argument. It is like saying that the Ranger should never have been made because another lightly armored Martial Striker already existed, the Rogue. Or that the Invoker shouldn't exist because he already have the Wizard. Or that the Avenger shouldn't have been made since we already had the Swordmage.
Just because there are similarities to currently existing classes doesn't mean that it isn't possible to create an interesting new class.
Area Weapon attacks at range are too much stepping on the ranged strikers' and controllers' toes. (but mind, the 3rd level avenger encounter already
Knowing from experience that even a Close Burst 1 attack with a Waraxe can be devastating, I don't like the thought of what an Area Burst 1' in 10 attack with a Mordenkrad can do. Implement Powers are there for a reason, y'know.
A Close Blast 3 with a Weapon versus AC and a Close Blast 3 with an Implement versus Reflex are pretty much equivalent. There is no good reason that every AoE power should be an implement power mechanically speaking. For the most part it is just a flavor issue.
A little off-topic here... but can you give those of us who may not be familiar with many examples of "fantasy samurai" some sources where we might find common usage of techniques like Air Slashes ?
The anime/mange series Rurouni Kenshin (sometimes titled Samurai X) is a big one. A villain using that technique appears in episode 19. The main character of Ninja Scroll uses the technique too. These are hardly the first places this technique have appeared either.
Furthermore most videogame samurai use the technique. The samurai in Ogre Battle for example. Even Cyan in Final Fantasy 6 uses the technique. Not to mention it is used in every Tales of... game.
It seems to have been cemented into Japanese pop culture.
The Monk is Psionic because the Ki power source proved untenable. The article didn't say that the power source was in any way inappropriate for the Monk class, and that's why the Monk ended up as Psionic; the power source itself is called "untenable." That means that it's not going to happen for any class.
Anubis_Reynard, why specify "more TWF" for Fighter samurai? Armored samurai using a single sword or spear or other single melee weapons certainly existed historically, and the idea persists.
Actually I usually see it more with the non-samurai fighters: Inuyasha, kendo masters, Soul Reapers. It seems to be a staple of anime sword fighting, not of samurai in particular.
Funny, while none of your three examples may be called samurai, they all have links to samurai. Inuyasha is the rogue son of a demon samurai. Kendo master characters tend to be samurai in spirit and follow the code of bushido. The Soul Reapers of Bleach are based on and organized like the Shinsengumi, a police like group made up of Ronin.
I think the combining of Ki and Psionics is the best thing to happen to both of em.
And what is Arcane energy? Warlocks draw upon the power of powerful Fey or Devils. Sorcerers' draw upon the energy latent in their own bodies. Wizards, Bards, and Swordmages lack any clear flavor to their abilities at all. So what is this Arcane energy that defines all Arcane classes? It is the energy that Arcane classes use. It is a circular definition with no meaning.
After all, "arcane energy" is a justification created after the Arcane Power Source was already created. Power Sources aren't really about where the power comes from, they are about what tropes and archetypes unify a set of classes. The only thing unifying Arcane classes is that they follow the loosely defined archetype of traditional fantasy magic.
This kind of wordplay and justification are pretty meaningless. Power sources are about tropes and archetypes above all else, and the basic archetypes underlying psychic power and ki are very different.
Most psychics in various forms of fiction share several distinct qualities:
1) Psychic power tends to be an innate gift that people either have or don't, and tends to be rare.
2) Psychic power only requires thought in order to be used, not physical action, and thus doesn't require any physical training.
3) There exists a pretty distinctive list of psychic powers commonly seen in various forms of fiction, including pyrokinesis, telekinesis, empathy, telepathy, precognition, and teleportaion.
Examples of this kind of psychic power: Most Science fiction, including Star Trek and Babylon 5. The Dragonriders of Pern and Heralds of Valdemar series. Much more.
On the other hand, Ki (as I have been arguing for) is also dominated by several tropes:
1) Ki power is something that anyone can use with the right training.
2) Ki is connected strongly with physical training and the martial arts, and is often used as part of unarmed and weapon attacks.
3) Common Ki powers include punches charged with energy, energy blasts, and a burst of energy released from a palm strike that disrupt internal organs.
Ki itself is a collection of tropes originating in Wuxia, other Hong Kong Kung Fo movies, and Japanese anime like Dragon Ball Z, Yu Yu Hakusho, and Bleach. Note that the specific term "Ki" is rarely used, and other substitutes like "spirit energy" are common used.
So I don't think Ki and Psychic power have anything in common at all.
Fair enough. I can see where Ki and Psionic are both different and similar from your posts and those of others. But...I don't care. I mean to say, I don't care if they're different or similar. The problem wasn't that Ki as a source couldn't be described differently, it was that they couldn't make the classes for it different enough to Ki classes instead of part of other power sources. Whether or not they wanted to avoid turning Ki into "the asian power source" is mostly irrelevant to me, also.
The only reason Ki now needs to be described as similar to other power sources (I mention the possibility of multiple power sources because there will be other former Ki classes that end up in power sources OTHER than psionic) is because too many people are completely dissatisfied with the idea that the Monk is now Psionic. So people try to describe both as internal energy, citing that psyche translates to "breath" or something like that (I didn't really pay attention, because it's irrelevant).
As far as I'm concerned, the monk used to be solely martial, then it became spiritual, and now it is mental. Any of the three are fine with me. I don't care why they do what they do, only that it works. I can come up with plenty of stories no matter what. Now...soulknife I'm unwilling to budge on putting in a different power source...but it wouldn't surprise me since incarnum stole it's trick, sort of. I could live with it being an option for all psionic classes, or even just the monk. But it'd better be awfully good in that case.
The Monk is Psionic because the Ki power source proved untenable. The article didn't say that the power source was in any way inappropriate for the Monk class, and that's why the Monk ended up as Psionic; the power source itself is called "untenable." That means that it's not going to happen for any class.
I don't think people are having any problem with the possibility of a power source being called "untenable" just that the stated reasons that Ki was declared untenable were not enough. Declaring Ki untenable because the Full Discipline mechanic wasn't working out as an umbrella just doesn't sound right.
Anubis_Reynard, why specify "more TWF" for Fighter samurai? Armored samurai using a single sword or spear or other single melee weapons certainly existed historically, and the idea persists.
Indeed, I was remiss to limit it. Fighter, Ranger, and Warlord all have different interpretations that al work with samouri, with some tweaking, and Rogue, Avenger, and Paladin can be tweaked to fill specific architypes.
That tweaking will be provided in the Samouri article. Not one samouri class, but 6, just as there was more than one assasin class.
I don't think people are having any problem with the possibility of a power source being called "untenable" just that the stated reasons that Ki was declared untenable were not enough. Declaring Ki untenable because the Full Discipline mechanic wasn't working out as an umbrella just doesn't sound right.
My post was primarily about Ki as a power source being dead, because some people seem to be hoping that the article was just saying that the Monk being Ki wasn't working out, and that other classes could still belong to the Ki power source.
As for the 'umbrella power' thing... well, it was a long article, and they had more reasons than that spelled out. Lack of a unifying concept beyond Asian-ness is a big one. Intellectual proximity to other concepts is another. So why not scrap it?
As for the 'umbrella power' thing... well, it was a long article, and they had more reasons than that spelled out. Lack of a unifying concept beyond Asian-ness is a big one. Intellectual proximity to other concepts is another.
Unifying concept? Simple. Mystical Martial Artists.
Proximity/Overlap with other power sources? Is the problem really in Ki or is it in overly broad power sources like Psionics and Arcane?
I don't think people are having any problem with the possibility of a power source being called "untenable" just that the stated reasons that Ki was declared untenable were not enough. Declaring Ki untenable because the Full Discipline mechanic wasn't working out as an umbrella just doesn't sound right.
Seconded.
None of the problems with Ki seem to be insurmountable. Just because Full Discipline didn't work doesn't mean that it wasn't possible to create a unifying theme for Ki. Heck, Full Discipline is still around inside Psionics. That would seem to imply that Psionics won't have a strong unifying mechanic, if one of its first classes uses a mechanic from a discarded power source.
Furthermore, the claim that Ki was too narrow to produce enough classes for a power source isn't very plausible. Look at Divine; in previous editions, only the Cleric and Paladin existed, and we now have the Avenger and Invoker because the developers challenged themselves to create more classes that fit in the power source.
I think part of the problem is that WotC may have put all of their ideas for Ki into one class, the Monk, and didn't leave any room for themselves to take some of those ideas and expand them into full classes.
And some would argue that Samurai should be proud, horse riding, scale-mail wearing archers because it is more historic.
I don't really see how this counters anything I said...
Sure, you could build a Samurai class that includes an "armored archer" concept alongside horsemanship and katana use. I think I talked about how that would be a good idea for a possible Martial Samurai class at some other time. I would much rather see the name Samurai given to something distinct like that rather than to a multiclass-only class.
However, I really don't see why we would need to argue over which class concept deserves the name Samurai the most, if we both seem to agree that there is enough unique ideas within the Samurai name for a full class.
If anything, a thread like this shows the problems Des&Dev have with something like the Ki power source and ideas like Samurai and Ninja. They mean too many different things to different people. By not providing a concrete "ruling" on subject matter they allow people the freedom to house rule in material as needed to fit the conception at the gaming table.
I don't buy this argument at all. I really think you are a bit too obsessed with names, and not thinking enough about the substance behind the names.
I mean, the word "ninja" has been used for all kinds of different concepts throughout history and pop culture. Different people would have very different expectations for what a "ninja" class would be. Many of those expectations are easily satisfied by the Rogue class. There are other expectations, though, that are not satisfied by any existing class, and could only be satisfied by a class that specifically tries to do so. The "magical ninja" is one of those. Trying to create an "add-on class" in order to create as many kinds of ninja as possible would not fulfill that need, so it actually excludes more ideas of the "ninja" than it would create.
The samurai is in a similar boat. Sure, you could create a workable "samurai" that embodies some significant fraction of different concepts for the "samurai" with a multi-class class, but you would not be able to cover them all, and it might lead to some ideas never appearing.
One could build Swordmage to do what TwinBahamut describes and say, "He uses Ki instead of Arcane."
It doesn't work. I'll admit that I have not actually seen the Swordmage class myself, but I know that the class is essentially a wizard who carries a sword around, with all of its powers being about pure magical effects like flight and fireballs that use a sword as an implement, rather than actual physical attacks and sword techniques, so it is nothing at all like what I want to see. Just replacing a word doesn't change the fundamental difference.
Sounds suspiciously like an Avenger to me.
- Unarmored, high mobility = Check!
- supernatural skill with weapons (Oath of Enmity) = Check!
- energy shockwaves, close bursts: Implement powers Check!
Doesn't work.
Area Weapon attacks at range are too much stepping on the ranged strikers' and controllers' toes. (but mind, the 3rd level avenger encounter already
Knowing from experience that even a Close Burst 1 attack with a Waraxe can be devastating, I don't like the thought of what an Area Burst 1' in 10 attack with a Mordenkrad can do. Implement Powers are there for a reason, y'know.
Why would what is essentially a ranged striker or controller be "stepping on ranged strikers' and controllers' toes"?. Are you saying that the mere fact that it is a class that uses a sword as its main weapon means it has to be a melee defender or striker? That is the glory of the Ki power source idea; it allows classes to both be heavily weapon focused but still break free of the real-world limitations of said weapons.
To be perfectly honest, I always imagined the high-mobility air-slash swordmaster class to be a Ki Controller.
Also, I simply don't agree with the Implement limitation. Implements exist almost more for flavor reasons than for balance reasons, since Weapons targeting AC is mostly equivalent to an Implement targeting some other defense. Implements exist so that non-weapon users can keep up with the magical weapon "+x" modifiers that weapon-using classes get, not to make AoE attacks balanced.
You do know that the Samurai Image in pop culture encompasses way too much to be merely defined by a smattering of anime tropes? So, I 'm afraid what your suggestions disqualified themselves.
What on Earth is "your suggestions disqualified themselves" supposed to mean? Seriously...
Anyways, you are applying a completely meaningless and unnecessary requirement for a "samurai class". A class with the name Samurai doesn't need to embody every possible iteration of the "samurai ideal" any more than the Wizard needs to embody every iteration of the "wizard ideal". Considering that the 4E Wizard is far less all-encompassing than any previous version of that class, I don't think encompassing everything with a single class is exactly an important 4E class design goal. I mean, the so-called Monk class certainly doesn't encompass every idea of what it means to be a monk. It doesn't even cover the central idea of what it means to be monk, since it has absolutely no connection to people who undertake ascetic vows in order to dedicate themselves to religion!
Even more, for every Anime Samurai, you 'd have to include a historical Samurai for the history nuts (or even a couple of them depending on the period), a Ronin for the Samurai movie fans, a Samurai based very closely on actual martial arts for the people who practice said martial arts, and maybe even a western Christopher Lambert/Sean Connery Immortal Samurai for the Highlander Fans. Hence why I understand that the Samurai will be some sort of Multiclassing mechanic available for many a class 'cos it 's either that or a bleedin' entire Power Source called "Samurai" to appease the myriad of Samurai Fans.
Many of those are covered by existing classes, others don't require base classes (I mean, Highlander obviously involves an Epic Destiny
), and the others are just you splitting hairs. Seriously, anyone who thinks that ronin and samurai are different at the class level is putting too much emphasis on names and not enough on substance.I just don't buy the idea that you need to have a samurai class in order to play a samurai, any more than you need a common farm boy class in order to play a hero who starts as a farm boy. I don't buy the idea that having a samurai class limits someone from playing a "samurai" with some other class, any more than having a Barbarian class stops someone from creating a Bard from a savage background.
The 'air slash' that I see most in anime is with most all sword-wielding anime characters, samurai or not.
Actually I usually see it more with the non-samurai fighters: Inuyasha, kendo masters, Soul Reapers. It seems to be a staple of anime sword fighting, not of samurai in particular.
And why wouldn't you have air slashes with a 4e fighter, though they'd likely be paragon or epic level powers. That might even be a power granted with the Samurai MC feat tree, extending the reach of the base class weapon powers by 1-2 squares.
You know, this post reminded me that some of this air slash discussion is getting a little off track.
The important part isn't that the air slash is linked to samurai in particular. The important part is that the air slash is a cool trick that I want to see in D&D, but pretty much has no chance at all of appearing outside of the Ki power source. It isn't going to show up in Martial, it is a bad fit for Arcane, Divine, or Primal, and I doubt it will fit with Shadow or Elemental. Sure, the Monk is integrated with Psionics now, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we would see something like the air slash in a Psionic class. If they do the word Psionic any justice at all, then a weapon-oriented Psionic class is more likely to telekinetically crush his opponents as a ranged attack than attack with an air slash.
With Ki gone, the concept itself really doesn't have anywhere to go, samurai class or not.
You know, this post reminded me that some of this air slash discussion is getting a little off track.
The important part isn't that the air slash is linked to samurai in particular. The important part is that the air slash is a cool trick that I want to see in D&D, but pretty much has no chance at all of appearing outside of the Ki power source.
I'm sad that you can't see some of the Fighter's powers from the PHB work like this. It only improves with other classes, like Swordmage.
I'm sad that you can't see some of the Fighter's powers from the PHB work like this. It only improves with other classes, like Swordmage.
Can you point out any of the Fighter powers that do stuff like air slashes? I'm sorry but I couldn't find one Fighter power that worked that way.
Can you point out any of the Fighter powers that do stuff like air slashes? I'm sorry but I couldn't find one Fighter power that worked that way.
That's the point, none of them are described that way.
But the mechanics never translate, word-per-word, into something in the D&D world. It's "magical tea party"; most of them can work that way, despite not being described that way.
Unifying concept? Simple. Mystical Martial Artists.
Proximity/Overlap with other power sources? Is the problem really in Ki or is it in overly broad power sources like Psionics and Arcane?
Compared to Ki, Psionics and Arcane do indeed seem overly broad. That's because Mystical Martial Artists is a rather narrow concept. Enough for a class? Sure. For a whole power source? Not so much.
I'm sorry but I'm not seeing that. The "average" air slash tends to be a ranged attack that hits targets that are 20 to 30 feet or more away.
Have you seen the various reach builds? There's a bard who gets a reach of 7 or 8 squares by epic...
...
It doesn't work. I'll admit that I have not actually seen the Swordmage class myself, but I know that the class is essentially a wizard who carries a sword around, with all of its powers being about pure magical effects like flight and fireballs that use a sword as an implement, rather than actual physical attacks and sword techniques, so it is nothing at all like what I want to see. Just replacing a word doesn't change the fundamental difference.
As a person who is sad to see the Ki power source go I agree with most of what you said, but this last part is wrong. It would require significant refluffing to switch the Swordmage power descriptions from Arcane to Ki thematics but it is doable. The Swordmage is not a Wizard with a sword instead of a wand; most of the Swordmage's powers are weapon based, even the ranged ones, with very few if any effects along the lines of flight and fireball so it is possible to do such a refluff. That said, it would be a lot of work and still would not match the image I have of a fantasy Samurai.
I could easily create a character out of a Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, or Warlord that would fit the bill for a real-world Samurai (though the Rogue is a bit of a stretch); thematically and power wise I just don't look at the Paladin or the Avenger and think Samurai. While I can accept a feat based addendum for Samurai to try and get the more fantastic elements into one of the martial classes, I worry that it will be too limited.
And I support the need for a full Ninja class. The real-world Ninja can be built with a Rogue, but the fantasy Ninja can not; the fantasy Ninja is not just a Rogue with one or two special effects. I feel somewhat the same way about the Samurai and the martial classes, but the fantasy Ninja is almost entirely about special effects where as the fantasy Samurai generally seems more martial with only a few flashy special effects.
That is not a very good argument. It is like saying that the Ranger should never have been made because another lightly armored Martial Striker already existed, the Rogue. Or that the Invoker shouldn't exist because he already have the Wizard. Or that the Avenger shouldn't have been made since we already had the Swordmage.
Just because there are similarities to currently existing classes doesn't mean that it isn't possible to create an interesting new class.
Au contraire, mon ami, I was trying to point out to TwinBahamut that his suggestions are for a Samurai Class is actually a lot of things which an Avenger already does. Just like another person's samurai could created with a Paladin, another with a Swordmage and so on. All in all, I found that said ideas do again nothing but proove the point that the Samurai as a class is an obsolete idea...
A Close Blast 3 with a Weapon versus AC and a Close Blast 3 with an Implement versus Reflex are pretty much equivalent. There is no good reason that every AoE power should be an implement power mechanically speaking. For the most part it is just a flavor issue.
Not really, as you 'd have to factor in which weapon is being used. A weapon isn't about damage alone, special abilities such as brutal, high crit also play a significant role and other sources for bonus damage/abilities such as magic items and feats. Just compare 3 military heavy blades, the longsword, the scimitar and the kopesh. A close blast 3 with a longsword doing might seem balanced, but with a scimitar, more attack rolls mean more chances to score a crit, while a Khopesh increases the damage output a bit, but compared with the former two it seems a bit impractical to use, as its bonus would only trigger situationallly.
Regarding superior weapons, the scaling of damage for blasts and bursts can be trickier in higher levels than. It's far easier to keep a power balanced by using a fixed number and the implement keyword rather than a Weapon keyword.
Cheers!
Captn M.
Doesn't work.
Explain. Mechanically, it 's close to what you want.
Why would what is essentially a ranged striker or controller be "stepping on ranged strikers' and controllers' toes"?. Are you saying that the mere fact that it is a class that uses a sword as its main weapon means it has to be a melee defender or striker? That is the glory of the Ki power source idea; it allows classes to both be heavily weapon focused but still break free of the real-world limitations of said weapons.
To be perfectly honest, I always imagined the high-mobility air-slash swordmaster class to be a Ki Controller.
Well, you should have said.
[sarcasm]Sorry, I be such a dense olde pirate that I couldn't spy that your Samurai has nothing to do with melee. 'Tis strange, I must have gotten an entirely wrong impression of a Samurai 's supposed to be.'onestly, I always they was wavin' them katanas about to stab and disembowl people in close quarter combat...[/sarcasm]
Again, that shows that your Samurai ain't gonna work, mate. Stop imposing your anime tropes on the entire Samurai label, please.
Also, I simply don't agree with the Implement limitation. Implements exist almost more for flavor reasons than for balance reasons, since Weapons targeting AC is mostly equivalent to an Implement targeting some other defense.
See my reply to SkyOdin. Implements aren't only there for saving the designers the effort of having to add a line like "Attack: Stat +2 in 5th level, Stat+4 in 11th level,..." These powers are like they are for a balance reason, even more so if you consider than many close burst/blast or area attack Swordmage implement powers are fluffed as the attack being some sort of sword slash...
What on Earth is "your suggestions disqualified themselves" supposed to mean? Seriously...
Just a german/austrian figure of speech I picked up. Essentially, it 's more pointed way to say that "What you're saying/doing/making..." - (your suggestions for a Samurai class in this case) - "... speaks for itself and it's no good."Anyways, you are applying a completely meaningless and unnecessary requirement for a "samurai class". A class with the name Samurai doesn't need to embody every possible iteration of the "samurai ideal" any more than the Wizard needs to embody every iteration of the "wizard ideal". Considering that the 4E Wizard is far less all-encompassing than any previous version of that class, I don't think encompassing everything with a single class is exactly an important 4E class design goal.
Well, if there were a class then it should be at least readily recognizable - which your samurai class objectively is not.I mean, the so-called Monk class certainly doesn't encompass every idea of what it means to be a monk.It doesn't even cover the central idea of what it means to be monk, since it has absolutely no connection to people who undertake ascetic vows in order to dedicate themselves to religion!
Now, if we consider that the Monk Label is attached to the Mystic Martial Artist of earlier D&D editions, then the Samurai has, likewise, to be a Lawful Fighter with 2 weapon fighting shticks and an obession for honour.Many of those are covered by existing classes, others don't require base classes (I mean, Highlander obviously involves an Epic Destiny
3.5 Complete Warrior. There's a split:
Samurai = lawful to the bones
Ronin = nonlawful samurai, like an expaladin, Prestige Class
Well, I 'm glad that WotC decided to put less emphasis on weird "substances" for every "name" or trope they come across.I just don't buy the idea that you need to have a samurai class in order to play a samurai, any more than you need a common farm boy class in order to play a hero who starts as a farm boy.
This is where we agree, but the conclusion you jump to (i.e., a Samurai being a ranged Ki melee-weapon-based controller) is where your reasoning gets weird.I don't buy the idea that having a samurai class limits someone from playing a "samurai" with some other class, any more than having a Barbarian class stops someone from creating a Bard from a savage background.
But, there's always the fact that if you define Class X based on trope Y in a RPG, the rules for X - even if they only share the name, because someone didn't do the research - will often influence how a class X is perceived. Were your suggestions implemented as you outlined, some Samurai Fans would probably look at the class and wonder what the designers were on while creating the class.
Cheers!
Captn M.
PS: Not to mention that the cultural implications of eastern classes are often essentialized media images that might reflect poorly on the western creators of the game. I remember a discussion about an Asian Power Source where non-Chinese/Japanese posters wondered where their own culture was represented in the rules.
I'm sorry but I'm not seeing that. The "average" air slash tends to be a ranged attack that hits targets that are 20 to 30 feet or more away.
So it needs to be a minimum range of 4 squares? Are you expecting this power to be easily accessed at first level, or developed over the course of training (i.e., High-heroic, or Paragon)? Of course, it deals weapon damage, but are you talking about the "Air Slash"es that go out in a burst, blast, or a straight line? Multiple opponents, just the nearest one, or attack around people?
I was just talking about the ability to attack with a weapon at more than one opponent, or one opponent at a further distance than normal. My understanding can be done in the first three levels, and improves with level. If there is something specific you think "Air Slash"es are, then give me an expectation to fulfil.
So it needs to be a minimum range of 4 squares? Are you expecting this power to be easily accessed at first level, or developed over the course of training (i.e., High-heroic, or Paragon)? Of course, it deals weapon damage, but are you talking about the "Air Slash"es that go out in a burst, blast, or a straight line? Multiple opponents, just the nearest one, or attack around people?
I was just talking about the ability to attack with a weapon at more than one opponent, or one opponent at a further distance than normal. My understanding can be done in the first three levels, and improves with level. If there is something specific you think "Air Slash"es are, then give me an expectation to fulfil.
The basic air slash tends to be a low cost easily repeatable single target ranged attack gained at low levels (in a 99 level rpg it is usually gained within the first 5 levels if the character does not start with it). More powerful versions can deal elemental damage, hit multiple targets in a straight line, end in multitarget blasts, avoid unwanted targets, as well as other things.
The Star Ocean version(Dias starts using it :43 seconds into the video) is perhaps the best visual example there is.
Au contraire, mon ami, I was trying to point out to TwinBahamut that his suggestions are for a Samurai Class is actually a lot of things which an Avenger already does. Just like another person's samurai could created with a Paladin, another with a Swordmage and so on. All in all, I found that said ideas do again nothing but proove the point that the Samurai as a class is an obsolete idea...
Your argument that the Avenger can be refluffed into a Samurai isn't very convincing when you consider that the Avenger is built using very specific flavor, and most of its powers strongly reflect that. While there are a few superficial similarities, the bulk of the Avenger's powers are distinctly Divine and keyed into the general Avenger concept of "someone who makes and oath to God to kill an opponent". Calling down divine fire and locking your opponent in an divine cage match are hardly the kinds of things a samurai would typically do.
Not really, as you 'd have to factor in which weapon is being used. A weapon isn't about damage alone, special abilities such as brutal, high crit also play a significant role and other sources for bonus damage/abilities such as magic items and feats. Just compare 3 military heavy blades, the longsword, the scimitar and the kopesh. A close blast 3 with a longsword doing might seem balanced, but with a scimitar, more attack rolls mean more chances to score a crit, while a Khopesh increases the damage output a bit, but compared with the former two it seems a bit impractical to use, as its bonus would only trigger situationallly.
Regarding superior weapons, the scaling of damage for blasts and bursts can be trickier in higher levels than. It's far easier to keep a power balanced by using a fixed number and the implement keyword rather than a Weapon keyword.
Cheers!
Captn M.
First, I would like to point out that there are quite a few area of effect weapon attacks already. Look at the Rogue for example: Blinding Barrage, Rogue Daily 1 is a Close Blast 3, Cloud of Steel, Rogue Encounter 7, is a Close Blast 5, and Steel Entrapment, Rogue Encounter 23, is another Close Blast 5.
So I don't think any of the issues you cite actually prevent there being Weapon Close and Area attacks. If there are some problems, it should be pretty easy to work around them.
Compared to Ki, Psionics and Arcane do indeed seem overly broad. That's because Mystical Martial Artists is a rather narrow concept. Enough for a class? Sure. For a whole power source? Not so much.
I can throw out several different Mystical Martial Artist archetypes that would each make a fine class.
- The mystical ninja (despite some posters dislike of Naruto and other anime ninjas they are still an archetype)
- The fantasy samurai we have been talking about
- An archer who fires supernaturally enhanced arrows
- A Ki blast firing monk
The Star Ocean version(Dias starts using it :43 seconds into the video) is perhaps the best visual example there is.
So does this mean you are fine with the mechanic saying Ranged 10, minimum Ranged 5?
Air Slash Samurai Attack 1
At-Will * Ki, Weapon
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs AC
Hit: 1[W]+Strength modifier damage.
Increase damage to 2[W]+Strength modifier at 21st level.
Explain. Mechanically, it 's close to what you want.
No, its not. I don't think I should have to point out that it is a Divine class with a Holy Symbol Implement, the Channel Divinity power, an "Oath of Enmity" ability that is both very flavorful (in a manner that doesn't lend itself to being a "samurai" class) and extremely central to the class, and a set of at-wills that more about radiant damage and holy retribution than being anything I would remotely call a "master ki swordsman". Seriously, when I say it doesn't work, it means that it doesn't work.
Well, you should have said.
[sarcasm]Sorry, I be such a dense olde pirate that I couldn't spy that your Samurai has nothing to do with melee. 'Tis strange, I must have gotten an entirely wrong impression of a Samurai 's supposed to be.'onestly, I always they was wavin' them katanas about to stab and disembowl people in close quarter combat...[/sarcasm]
Again, that shows that your Samurai ain't gonna work, mate. Stop imposing your anime tropes on the entire Samurai label, please.
You can cut the sarcasm a bit. You are just being rude.
Seriously, I never said it had "nothing to do with melee". However, saying that just because it has reasonable ranged power it can't be melee, or that just because it has strong melee power it can be ranged, is nothing more than a false dichotomy you are creating yourself.
Also, when have I ever said or even implied that my idea of a ki swordmaster class that might be a good match for the Samurai class name is even remotely connected to the "entire Samurai label"? I have flatly said the opposite several times, and I even said right from the start that this ki swordmaster idea is only one possibility for a dedicated samurai class. Of course, it is not like there is even a "entire Samurai label" that applies equally to all samurai in the first place, even when talking about historical samurai, let alone fictional ones...
See my reply to SkyOdin. Implements aren't only there for saving the designers the effort of having to add a line like "Attack: Stat +2 in 5th level, Stat+4 in 11th level,..." These powers are like they are for a balance reason, even more so if you consider than many close burst/blast or area attack Swordmage implement powers are fluffed as the attack being some sort of sword slash...
Would you actually explain what this "balance reason" is? You keep asserting that there is one, but you have not demonstrated the need.
Just a german/austrian figure of speech I picked up. Essentially, it 's more pointed way to say that "What you're saying/doing/making..." - (your suggestions for a Samurai class in this case) - "... speaks for itself and it's no good."
So you are prejudiced against anime tropes or something. I get it. It doesn't mean that you are making a reasonable argument.
Well, if there were a class then it should be at least readily recognizable - which your samurai class objectively is not.
Why not?
Now, if we consider that the Monk Label is attached to the Mystic Martial Artist of earlier D&D editions, then the Samurai has, likewise, to be a Lawful Fighter with 2 weapon fighting shticks and an obession for honour.
3.5 Complete Warrior. There's a split:
Samurai = lawful to the bones
Ronin = nonlawful samurai, like an expaladin, Prestige Class
Well, I 'm glad that WotC decided to put less emphasis on weird "substances" for every "name" or trope they come across.
Just because there were a ton of forgettable garbage classes and PrCs churned out in 3E doesn't mean the same should be done now... Seriously, weren't you just arguing that you didn't want to see a ton of samurai classes?
Besides, the entire Samurai/Ronin split was based on a mix of a really stupid tradition in older version of D&D that assumes Asian = Lawful, combined with the Lawful/Chaotic divide and classes that assumed certain alignments. At the very least, the latter assumptions are gone, since even the Paladin no longer has any alignment restrictions, making classes like the Antipaladin or the old Blackguard redundant and meaningless (which is why we have not seen them).
And also, the very fact that the several different versions of the 3E Samurai and the 3.5E Samurai were all totally different classes (and were all pretty much hated) shows that tradition isn't exactly the most defining aspect of what goes into a D&D class. Of course, I suppose the great differences between the 3.5E Fighter, Wizard, Ranger, and Barbarian and their 4E versions should have made that clear already.
This is where we agree, but the conclusion you jump to (i.e., a Samurai being a ranged Ki melee-weapon-based controller) is where your reasoning gets weird.
There you go adding a "should" where I did not. I basically said it "could" be a Ki melee-weapon-based controller. I also am fine with the Samurai being a Martial class built around armor and archery. Maybe it could be something else. My biggest points, though, are that there is enough to the Samurai to make a full class, rather than merely a multi-class only class and that the Ki power source allows cool concepts that are both fun and don't work in other power sources, such as a melee/ranged hybrid swordmaster controller (no matter what the name).
But, there's always the fact that if you define Class X based on trope Y in a RPG, the rules for X - even if they only share the name, because someone didn't do the research - will often influence how a class X is perceived. Were your suggestions implemented as you outlined, some Samurai Fans would probably look at the class and wonder what the designers were on while creating the class.
There is no such thing as a "samurai fan". There are Kurosawa movie fans, fans of the Sengoku era historical samurai, fans of the samurai as described by Musashi's The Five Rings, fans of over-the-top anime samurai, fans of more subdued and realistic anime samurai, and fans of various videogames that happen to contain samurai. There is a lot of crossover, but there are as many different fandoms as there are versions of the samurai, and there are many versions of the samurai. For many of these ideas and fandoms, you couldn't possibly create a character class that actually embodied the ideals of what it means to be a "samurai", since those ideas have nothing to do with mechanics. For others, classes like the Fighter and Warlord work well enough as-is. Some might say that you couldn't possibly fit a samurai into D&D. And for some, the only way to actually play the samurai they want to play is to have a completely over the top Ki swordmaster class.
There is going to be someone who is unhappy no matter what you do, so the best thing to do is to try to appease the people who can actually be pleased by something that is within your power. That is how I see things, at least.
PS: Not to mention that the cultural implications of eastern classes are often essentialized media images that might reflect poorly on the western creators of the game. I remember a discussion about an Asian Power Source where non-Chinese/Japanese posters wondered where their own culture was represented in the rules.
First off, there is no "Asian Power Source". It makes me sick to my stomach every time someone talks about Ki in such a way, because that is the single worst angle from which to look at it. That seems to be the perspective WotC used to claim it is "untenable", after all.
Second, the realm where "media images" becomes the most problematic is probably in terms of describing asian-inspired cultures, or associating particular classes with particular game cultures that are directly modeled on real world asian cultures. I am not really a fan of either. I would rather see Karrnathi Samurai and Viking Dwarf Ninjas than classes that are only found in an analog to historical Japan.
The kind of stuff I am suggesting, the kind of stuff I truly want to see in D&D, has almost nothing to do with "portrayals of asian culture", and has a lot more to do with the kinds of cool things you see ninjas and samurai do in Japanese anime and Japanese videogames. I don't think it is remotely fair to find fault with someone who merely copies tropes that originate in the same culture that created ninja and samurai in the first place (and many of these tropes date back quite a distance).
No, its not. I don't think I should have to point out that it is a Divine class with a Holy Symbol Implement, the Channel Divinity power, an "Oath of Enmity" ability that is both very flavorful (in a manner that doesn't lend itself to being a "samurai" class) and extremely central to the class, and a set of at-wills that more about radiant damage and holy retribution than being anything I would remotely call a "master ki swordsman". Seriously, when I say it doesn't work, it means that it doesn't work.
I have to disagree. Point by point...
Divine class: powersource is fluff. Until Divine power comes out, you won't have anything decent that uses that keyword, that that would be the same whatever your powersource.
Holy Symbol implement: What kinda avenger bothers with a holy symbol? I exagerate, but an avenger's implement powers are very forgettable. Ignore it and call yourself a weapon-user.
Channel Divinity: Rename it to Channel Ki- One ally gets more accurate against your target, or for a feat you can get a critical strike. (RRoT)
Oath: This can easilly be refluffed to a dueling focus- if you only have one foe to concentrate on, you can seek out weakpoints and slip the enemie's parries.
At-wills: Even without divine power , it's easy to make an avenger with no radient powers
In fact, I just went and made one for you.
Names have been changed to protect the innocent
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
level 1
Half-Elf, Mystic Swordsman
Avenger's Censure: Scorpion School
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 14, Dex 16, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 10.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 12, Dex 16, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 8.
AC: 16 Fort: 13 Reflex: 14 Will: 14
HP: 28 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 7
TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +6, Athletics +5, Acrobatics +8, Perception +8
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +1, Bluff, Diplomacy +2, Dungeoneering +3, Endurance +2, Heal +3, History +1, Insight +5, Intimidate, Nature +3, Stealth +3, Streetwise, Thievery +3
FEATS
Level 1: Critical Strike encounter power
POWERS
Avenger at-will 1: Rout the craven
Avenger at-will 1: False opening
Avenger encounter 1: Flash Step
Avenger daily 1: Soul Charge
Half-Elf: Air Blades
ITEMS
Falchion
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Can you name those powers?
I have to disagree. Point by point...
...
Can you name those powers?
How are we exposed to figure out what your exact build is if you changed the names of everything?
What is your exact point anyways? That WotC shouldn't bother making a Swordsage or Samurai class because we can already kind-of make one by reflavoring half of the Avenger while cutting out everything that makes the class distinctive and interesting, including well more than half of its powers? If you are just trying to say that if we want to play a Samurai, we can just reflavor a current class, that doesn't actual solve anything.
There are two big reasons to want a Samurai class. The first one is that someone wants a Samurai class made so that they can play a Samurai. The second reason is that someone finds some inspiration from watching some anime or playing some videogames for a class that does something unique and interesting, and decides to name the class Samurai in order to pay homage to their inspiration.
I feel fairly comfortable saying that for me and TwinBahamut (and possible others), our reason is the latter of the two. I could care less if the class has the name Samurai or not, or if it is filled with powers with vaguely Asian names. If I wanted to play a character whose social rank was samurai, I could just play a Fighter or a Ranger. But what I would like to see is a class that can Air Slash or do some kind of Quick Draw (Iaijutsu) attack. Hey, thinking about it, Iaijutsu wouldn't be a bad means of doing extra Striker damage...
Anyways, as for the Avenger as Samurai itself, it doesn't really work. Despite what you said, flavor does matter. When the game designer who made the Avenger sat down to write it, he had in mind that it was going to be a Divine class. That is apparent not just in the fluff text for the class, but its mechanics as well. Anytime you have to advise on ignoring more than half of a classes powers to fit a concept, the class is probably a poor fit.
If you really want to know. I could see this as a viable air slash power:
Air Slash Samurai Attack 1
At-Will * Ki, Weapon
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs AC
Hit: 1[W]+Strength modifier damage.
Increase damage to 2[W]+Strength modifier at 21st level.
That was pretty much what I was thinking when I starting trying to figure out what an Air Slash would look like stat-wise. The only exception is that I was thinking it would be just 1[W] damage or maybe something fixed like 1d6 + Str damage. Of course, exact damage is probably best figured out in playtesting.
How are we exposed to figure out what your exact build is if you changed the names of everything?
Because you're supposed to actually look at the class, and try to wrap your mind around a different fluff. There's only 4 powers per level... it's not THAT hard to figure out what I'm referring to.
That was pretty much what I was thinking when I starting trying to figure out what an Air Slash would look like stat-wise. The only exception is that I was thinking it would be just 1[W] damage or maybe something fixed like 1d6 + Str damage. Of course, exact damage is probably best figured out in playtesting.
Once you're willing to accept fixed damage, you've opened the door to re-flavouring implements as katanas.
When any of us hear the word Samurai we each get a different image in our head, every Samurai concept is unique and at the same time iconic; and there is no other word that will conjure the same image in our head, which makes Samurai a very powerful word.
So I think it would be inappropriate to take the one word that would be used for the archetype and make into a class. Although it's in a somewhat superficial way, a Samurai class robs current classes of the archetype and limits itself to the archetype; and I think WotC feel the same way.
I would rather have a class like Ardent or something, that can have the Samurai archtype aplied to it for a classic anime Samurai.
When any of us hear the word Samurai we each get a different image in our head, every Samurai concept is unique and at the same time iconic; and there is no other word that will conjure the same image in our head, which makes Samurai a very powerful word.
So I think it would be inappropriate to take the one word that would be used for the archetype and make into a class. Although it's in a somewhat superficial way, a Samurai class robs current classes of the archetype and limits itself to the archetype; and I think WotC feel the same way.
Not this argument again! Mcnancy, no matter how many times you try using this argument it will not work. Once again:Barbarians do not have a lock on barbaric warriors and Warlords do not have a lock on warriors who lead armies, so Samurai will not have a lock on honorable swordsmen who wield katana.
So I think it would be inappropriate to take the one word that would be used for the archetype and make into a class. Although it's in a somewhat superficial way, a Samurai class robs current classes of the archetype and limits itself to the archetype; and I think WotC feel the same way.
Proof:
Wizards that make pacts with devils for their powers? "oh, you mean warlock"
A roguish highwayman, wielding a longsword who only takes money from the rich. "actually, it's a fighter-class"
Honorable warrior who receives bursts of strength by opening chakras in his mind. "why does it say barbarian on your sheet?"
Proof:
Wizards that make pacts with devils for their powers? "oh, you mean warlock"
A roguish highwayman, wielding a longsword who only takes money from the rich. "actually, it's a fighter-class"
Honorable warrior who receives bursts of strength by opening chakras in his mind. "why does it say barbarian on your sheet?"
Well I think it's ok to flavor a class as another, as long as you 'meet the requirements' sort to speak; If a character made a pact with a devil for arcane powers, then he would be considered a Warlock story wise, eventhough his sheet says Wizard.
To an extent, in the minds of some people, a Samurai class would apply the same sort of requirements to being a Samurai.
Not this argument again! Mcnancy, no matter how many times you try using this argument it will not work. Once again:
Barbarians do not have a lock on barbaric warriors and Warlords do not have a lock on warriors who lead armies, so Samurai will not have a lock on honorable swordsmen who wield katana.
I'm not saying it's a rule, and I'm not saying it's to the same extent with all classes, some classes ignore it all together; but IMO in the case of Samurai, it would be quite harmful to the archetype. Samurai have a very iconic and hard to describe style about them, and making a class for them is the wrong choice.
Once you're willing to accept fixed damage, you've opened the door to re-flavouring implements as katanas.
What? There is a big logical gap there. How does not having a problem with a Weapon keyworded having fixed damage lead to katanas = implements?Because you're supposed to actually look at the class, and try to wrap your mind around a different fluff. There's only 4 powers per level... it's not THAT hard to figure out what I'm referring to.
For some of the things on the list, you didn't leave much in the way of clues. You renamed the Censure, but there is no way of telling which of the two Censure abilities you picked, so we only have a 50/50 chance of guessing which one is "Scorpion School". For the two At-Wills it is pretty easy to exclude Radiant Vengeance and Bond of Retribution, but that only leaves us to guess which one is "Rout the Craven" and which one is "False Opening" (why did you pick these names anyway?).
Flash Step can easily be either Angelic Alacrity or Whirlwind Charge, since they both do regular weapon damage and allow movement before the attack. The only obvious one is Aspect of Might = "Soul Charge", since it is the only Level 1 Daily that doesn't use teleportation, lightning damage, or radiant damage. And I have no way of guessing what "Air Blades" is supposed to be, since it could be from any class list.
I still don't see what the point of this exercise is supposed to be. To me, all you have proven is the futility of trying to strip away the Divine flavor from the Avenger. In order to do so, you need to delete more than half of its powers, including many of its coolest and most evocative abilities. And after doing so, it still doesn't really look like a Samurai class.
I am still convinced that flavor matters to class construction.
What is your exact point anyways? That WotC shouldn't bother making a Swordsage or Samurai class because we can already kind-of make one by reflavoring half of the Avenger while cutting out everything that makes the class distinctive and interesting, including well more than half of its powers? If you are just trying to say that if we want to play a Samurai, we can just reflavor a current class, that doesn't actual solve anything.
There are two big reasons to want a Samurai class. The first one is that someone wants a Samurai class made so that they can play a Samurai. The second reason is that someone finds some inspiration from watching some anime or playing some videogames for a class that does something unique and interesting, and decides to name the class Samurai in order to pay homage to their inspiration.
I feel fairly comfortable saying that for me and TwinBahamut (and possible others), our reason is the latter of the two. I could care less if the class has the name Samurai or not, or if it is filled with powers with vaguely Asian names. If I wanted to play a character whose social rank was samurai, I could just play a Fighter or a Ranger. But what I would like to see is a class that can Air Slash or do some kind of Quick Draw (Iaijutsu) attack. Hey, thinking about it, Iaijutsu wouldn't be a bad means of doing extra Striker damage...
This.
Please count me in that second group as well. I want this kind of mystical swordsman archetype. What it is actually called isn't all that important, though it would seem a silly waste to me not to use the "samurai" name when it is both the obvious inspiration and the most recognizable name that could be attributed to the concept.
When any of us hear the word Samurai we each get a different image in our head, every Samurai concept is unique and at the same time iconic; and there is no other word that will conjure the same image in our head, which makes Samurai a very powerful word.
So I think it would be inappropriate to take the one word that would be used for the archetype and make into a class. Although it's in a somewhat superficial way, a Samurai class robs current classes of the archetype and limits itself to the archetype; and I think WotC feel the same way.
Actually the word samurai represents at least two major archetypes to me, each with 3 to 5 sub-archetypes. Yet I still see enough common threads linking them all together to build a fundamentally unique class around.
Also, as myself and others have tried to point out to you, repeatedly, a samurai class robs nothing. A class's name is nothing more than a convenient label for players/DMs to use as a reference. It need have no in-game meaning. If you and the people you play with like to do so, that's your problem. As for me; I'm fine using avengers, barbarians, fighters, paladins, rangers, swordmages, and warlords as samurai and that won't change just because some class named samurai is released.
A class's name is nothing more than a convenient label for players/DMs to use as a reference.
That is the goal of a class name, yes, but in some cases it's an inconvenient label, such is the case with Samurai.
Also, the same could be said about power names and power sources as well, so why can't you just take that logic and reflavor an Avenger or Barbarian to make a samurai? That way the rest of us can have classes based on mechanics instead of style.
That is the goal of a class name, yes, but in some cases it's an inconvenient label, such is the case with Samurai.
Also, the same could be said about power names and power sources as well, so why can't you just take that logic and reflavor an Avenger or Barbarian to make a samurai? That way the rest of us can have classes based on mechanics instead of style.
Mcnancy, no class is based on mechanics. They are all based on style!
Mcnancy, no class is based on mechanics. They are all based on style!
Indeed.
- Paladins and battle clerics are basically two different styles of divine soldier, while invokers and devoted clerics are basically just two different styles of divine spellcaster.
- Warlocks, wizards, and sorcerers are all pure arcane spellcasters, their fundamental difference is purely one of style in how they acquire their power (one makes a dubious bargain with extraplanar beings, another devotes himself to the study of dusty tomes, and the third is merely a naturally gifted savant).
- Druids, shamans, and wardens are all just aspects of what used to be the old druid. Each reflects a distinct style that the druids of old were played in (though wardens also inherited some of the elements that the new barbarian couldn't keep).
Slippery Slope
Level 30 Obstacle
Trap 19,000 xp
The more something leans in one direction the more likely it'll start to carry on a life of its own and mow over everything in its way.
Trap: The triggering subject steamrolls over everything and everyone in its path
Perception
[INDENT][*]DC 10: The observant can see that the subject is nearing the slippery slope[/INDENT]
[INDENT][*]DC 15: Those without sight of the subject are also aware it's nearing a slope[/INDENT]
Trigger:The subject attempts to go in a direction that someone doesn't like
Attack:
Free Action Close burst special
Target: Any person who has contact with the subject
Attack: Special vs Will
Hit: The subject takes out hte person and gains a +1 on all further attack rolls and increases its burst size by 1
Miss: The subject gets a -1 on all further attack rolls and decreases its burst size by 1. if the burst size drops to 0 than it stops.
Special: The initial attack bonus is equal to 5 minus the lowest Wisdom modifier of anyone in it's initial burst radius. The initial burst radius is equal to how many people are adjecent to the subject when it triggers.
Countermeasures:
[INDENT][*]Insight (DC 10 + Attack Bonus of subject) standard action Each person outside the burst radius may make an Insight check to reduce the subject's attack bonus and burst size by 1. Each person may only make one such attempt and if they fail their check by more than 5 the subject instead gets a +1 to attack bonus and burst size.[/INDENT]
Sure all of the above classes have unique mechanics, but that is only because it was decided that they each represented a sufficiently unique style as to warrant being developed into a unique class. Every class is fundamentally based on a concept/style first, the mechanics come second as a way of developing that concept into a distinct class.
Allow me to step aboard this little Samurai/Ninja logic train that seems to going full speed theese days and show you where it's headed:
[fanboy rant] We should make a Pirate class! It would be an Elemental Striker who has power over the water and air elements; he could summon storms, turn into water and shift across the... whatever, you guys don't need an explanation, It's a Pirate, nuff said. The true Pirate class would be for those of us who want to play a mystic Pirate but are too lazy to flavor something that's not called Pirate! And I know some of you are going to say that it would be cheesy to make a Pirate class, but Pirate is the most convenient(and by convenient I mean you would be stuck with a premade character concept, but who wouldn't want to be a Pirate!) label for the class, trust me i've spent like no time whatsoever on thinking of a better name and I plan on ignoring any better suggestions. [/fanboy rant]
:P
Allow me to step aboard this little Samurai/Ninja logic train that seems to going full speed theese days and show you where it's headed:
[fanboy rant] We should make a Pirate class! It would be an Elemental Striker who has power over the water and air elements; he could summon storms, turn into water and shift across the... whatever, you guys don't need an explanation, It's a Pirate, nuff said. The true Pirate class would be for those of us who want to play a mystic Pirate but are too lazy to flavor something that's not called Pirate! And I know some of you are going to say that it would be cheesy to make a Pirate class, but Pirate is the most convenient(and by convenient I mean you would be stuck with a premade character concept, but who wouldn't want to be a Pirate!) label for the class, trust me i've spent like no time whatsoever on thinking of a better name and I plan on ignoring any better suggestions. [/fanboy rant]
:P
Okay, that was just rude. Haven't most of us made it pretty clear that the exact name "samurai" is not as important to us as the basic concept behind a "mystical swordsman" class? We have produced several examples of things that are not sufficiently covered by current power sources and classes, yet we would like to see in D&D. So how is calling us unimaginative, lazy, samurai/ninja fanboys add to productive discussion?
Okay, that was just rude. Haven't most of us made it pretty clear that the exact name "samurai" is not as important to us as the basic concept behind a "mystical swordsman" class? We have produced several examples of things that are not sufficiently covered by current power sources and classes, yet we would like to see in D&D. So how is calling us unimaginative, lazy, samurai/ninja fanboys add to productive discussion?
If you would be fine with a class like Ardent or something, that can be used to make a Samurai, then that wasn't directed at you.
[fanboy rant] We should make a Pirate class! It would be an Elemental Striker who has power over the water and air elements; he could summon storms, turn into water and shift across the... whatever, you guys don't need an explanation, It's a Pirate, nuff said. The true Pirate class would be for those of us who want to play a mystic Pirate but are too lazy to flavor something that's not called Pirate! And I know some of you are going to say that it would be cheesy to make a Pirate class, but Pirate is the most convenient(and by convenient I mean you would be stuck with a premade character concept, but who wouldn't want to be a Pirate!) label for the class, trust me i've spent like no time whatsoever on thinking of a better name and I plan on ignoring any better suggestions. [/fanboy rant]
:P
Hurhurhurhur!* Well put, matey! This is exactly the problem with the airslashing samurai that I had.
Okay, that was just rude. Haven't most of us made it pretty clear that the exact name "samurai" is not as important to us as the basic concept behind a "mystical swordsman" class? We have produced several examples of things that are not sufficiently covered by current power sources and classes, yet we would like to see in D&D. So how is calling us unimaginative, lazy, samurai/ninja fanboys add to productive discussion?
But the S-word got the whole discussion going, remember, hurhur...*
Seriously, when I read the PHB the first time, and then again later when I read Martial Power, I found that many powers that the Martial Classes use have a certain Anime/Eastern flavour to them or would at least be easily represented as such, like some of the cinematic charge attacks (those requiring acrobatics or athletics), those that require focussing or some close burst "whirlwind" attacks. And then, there's the Kensai PP (which, incidentally, would turn a Ki Controller Samurai as suggested into a veritable damagedealing machine)
But to address another issue in this thread:
Regarding Area and Burst weapon attacks: Of both ranged martial classes, only the rogue is blessed with a couple of close blasts at easily accessible levels. But these I find balanced with the fact that they are limited to the rogues' weapon selection - at best, such a burst could do 1d10 per [w] damage if you use a superior crossbow. But the Swordsage Samurai with his/her area attacks might perform these attacks with a fullblade doing d12 damage per [w] and high crit on top of it - all for the cost of one feat. A Greatbow Ranger on the other hand would only do d12 damage with no additional riders, and their close attacks are spread thin in the books, while their attack mechanic for targeting multiple is multiple ranged attacks rather than area attacks.
High Crit and multiple attacks is a mighty fine combo, mark my words. The 2 waraxe wielding, close burst attack spamming Dwarf Fighter DMPC who rounds out our slightly undersized group thaught me that. Indeed, the combo could have been even better with the Dwarf wielding an Execution axe instead.
Speaking of brutal weapons, that's another can of worms regarding Area attacks made with melee weapons, even a meagre Brutal 1 romps up the average damage you put out statistically, despite being a bit circumstancial.
Also, if you speak of weapons you have to consider feats: What about using area attacks with hammers or scimitars and hammer rythm/scimitar dance? Using a throwing hammer with a close blast attack offsets the bonus of Hammer Rythm, but if a Samurai/Swordsage does that with a Mordenkrad, it's an entirely different story.
Also, I wouldn't think that the designers didn't try that before with the SwordMage.
@Twin bahamut:
First off, there is no "Asian Power Source". It makes me sick to my stomach every time someone talks about Ki in such a way, because that is the single worst angle from which to look at it. That seems to be the perspective WotC used to claim it is "untenable", after all.
Second, the realm where "media images" becomes the most problematic is probably in terms of describing asian-inspired cultures, or associating particular classes with particular game cultures that are directly modeled on real world asian cultures. I am not really a fan of either. I would rather see Karrnathi Samurai and Viking Dwarf Ninjas than classes that are only found in an analog to historical Japan.
The kind of stuff I am suggesting, the kind of stuff I truly want to see in D&D, has almost nothing to do with "portrayals of asian culture", and has a lot more to do with the kinds of cool things you see ninjas and samurai do in Japanese anime and Japanese videogames. I don't think it is remotely fair to find fault with someone who merely copies tropes that originate in the same culture that created ninja and samurai in the first place (and many of these tropes date back quite a distance).
This is where we agree, to some extent. It is indeed necessary but what constitutes the Ki Power Source then? Honestly, eastern concepts like Ki/Chi, samurai, ninja and what not carry a lot of baggage - same as with Pirates and treasure, rum, stabbing your buddy in the back (historically speaking, that's mostly untrue) and walking the plank.
Thus, I do not agree with your view that WotC's only or main reason of axing Ki has been the cultural baggage. The more I think about it and read about it, I find that many aspects of Ki/Chi can be found in other classes (See above). Also, tropes are NOT a good source to base a class on. If anything, tropes found in one genre should merit their own sub-gaming system. So, if you go more Anime with your SwordSage/Samurai, it would only be fitting to theme an entire setting around them.
To conclude with another Pirate example: I can't force an entire crew of average D&D players to play my type of Pirate game, can I? Including lots of Anime Stuff would be like dropping treasure galleons, black powder weaponry, annoying speech habits, and even more annoying pets** onto an unsuspecting bunch of Dungeoncrawlers who signed up in for some remotely medival hack'n'slashing.
Trust me, it is indeed most wise to keep Dungeons&Dragons at a basic level, on which everybody can expand their personal game into a certain direction, no matter if your game or campaign is based on fantasy novels, accurate research, some general or specific cultural ideas, just a couple of tropes, or whatever else you make of it. Nothing wrong with either approach, but there's little reason to include that all into one big game, 'cos just as with the Samurai, you can't please all fans. That is true for going into a single direction too much - taking too much from Tropes in this instance - for it would alienate a part of the customer base. You yourself said that the Samurai of previous editions didn't work...
Cheers!
Captn M.
*Important note: I 'm not into smileys!
**Oh, wait, Anime is guilty of that, too.
Allow me to step aboard this little Samurai/Ninja logic train that seems to going full speed theese days and show you where it's headed:
[fanboy rant] We should make a Pirate class! It would be an Elemental Striker who has power over the water and air elements; he could summon storms, turn into water and shift across the... whatever, you guys don't need an explanation, It's a Pirate, nuff said. The true Pirate class would be for those of us who want to play a mystic Pirate but are too lazy to flavor something that's not called Pirate! And I know some of you are going to say that it would be cheesy to make a Pirate class, but Pirate is the most convenient(and by convenient I mean you would be stuck with a premade character concept, but who wouldn't want to be a Pirate!) label for the class, trust me i've spent like no time whatsoever on thinking of a better name and I plan on ignoring any better suggestions. [/fanboy rant]
:P
Wow, rudeness aside, that is one of the worst analogies I have seen in a while...
First, the air-slash using, mobile "mystic swordsman" archetype is something that actually exists in pop culture, whereas your waterwalking pirate does not. Second, no one here is calling it the "true Samurai", unlike your made up pirate fanboy. Third, you are just throwing a bunch of garbage rhetoric about being too lazy to change other things, the fanboys thinking they are better than everyone else and ignoring what anyone else has to say, and other such nonsense. It certainly shows that you have not been paying close attention to what everyone has been arguing. Seriously, this is pretty pathetic, since you don't even have much of a coherent point, other than to be offensive.
Wow, rudeness aside, that is one of the worst analogies I have seen in a while...
First, the air-slash using, mobile "mystic swordsman" archetype is something that actually exists in pop culture, whereas your waterwalking pirate does not. Second, no one here is calling it the "true Samurai", unlike your made up pirate fanboy. Third, you are just throwing a bunch of garbage rhetoric about being too lazy to change other things, the fanboys thinking they are better than everyone else and ignoring what anyone else has to say, and other such nonsense. It certainly shows that you have not been paying close attention to what everyone has been arguing. Seriously, this is pretty pathetic, since you don't even have much of a coherent point, other than to be offensive.
Well, with the news about the PH3, it's starting to look like we're going have more classes in 4E than anyone thought, If they keep this pattern there'll be at least somewhere over 40 some classes; so if we're going to have that many classes, then I guess I don't really care if you guys get a Samurai class based on just one or two powers.
Regarding Area and Burst weapon attacks: Of both ranged martial classes, only the rogue is blessed with a couple of close blasts at easily accessible levels. But these I find balanced with the fact that they are limited to the rogues' weapon selection - at best, such a burst could do 1d10 per [w] damage if you use a superior crossbow. But the Swordsage Samurai with his/her area attacks might perform these attacks with a fullblade doing d12 damage per [w] and high crit on top of it - all for the cost of one feat. A Greatbow Ranger on the other hand would only do d12 damage with no additional riders, and their close attacks are spread thin in the books, while their attack mechanic for targeting multiple is multiple ranged attacks rather than area attacks.
High Crit and multiple attacks is a mighty fine combo, mark my words. The 2 waraxe wielding, close burst attack spamming Dwarf Fighter DMPC who rounds out our slightly undersized group thaught me that. Indeed, the combo could have been even better with the Dwarf wielding an Execution axe instead.
Speaking of brutal weapons, that's another can of worms regarding Area attacks made with melee weapons, even a meagre Brutal 1 romps up the average damage you put out statistically, despite being a bit circumstancial.
Also, if you speak of weapons you have to consider feats: What about using area attacks with hammers or scimitars and hammer rythm/scimitar dance? Using a throwing hammer with a close blast attack offsets the bonus of Hammer Rythm, but if a Samurai/Swordsage does that with a Mordenkrad, it's an entirely different story.
This isn't directed towards me, but I may as well respond...
Why are you assuming that the swordmaster class wouldn't have similar weapon restrictions to the Rogue's in order to maintain this balance? Or that they might simply have fewer multiples of [w] damage in order to balance the differences out? Or any other mechanism at their disposal in order to maintain the flavor of the class and mechanical balance? There is no reason that the class that has been argued for would be unbalanced where the Rogue was balanced, especially if Close attacks are an important part of its role and design.
@Twin bahamut:
This is where we agree, to some extent. It is indeed necessary but what constitutes the Ki Power Source then? Honestly, eastern concepts like Ki/Chi, samurai, ninja and what not carry a lot of baggage - same as with Pirates and treasure, rum, stabbing your buddy in the back (historically speaking, that's mostly untrue) and walking the plank.
The Ki power source should be comprised of the various tropes and trappings of a particular genre of stories in which fighters possess supernatural powers, as is seen in various anime, Hong Kong action movies, videogames, and the like. It is undoubtably inspired by asian cultural elements, but that does not mean it either comprises all ideas inspired by asian cultural elements or has to be linked to in-game equivalents to asian cultures.
And yes, such ideas carry a lot of "baggage", but that is not necessarily a problem. A lot of it comes down to how it is written out and presented, after all.
Thus, I do not agree with your view that WotC's only or main reason of axing Ki has been the cultural baggage. The more I think about it and read about it, I find that many aspects of Ki/Chi can be found in other classes (See above).
First, no, that was not necessarily my view. My view is that WotC axed Ki becuase they started with the wrong perspective (Ki is the Asian Power Source), rightfully discarded that idea, but failed to properly look for and find a more solid foundation for the Ki power source, even though I think it isn't that hard to get a grasp on.
Also, I will agree that there are various things in other classes that can be described as "ki", but that doesn't mean that such things fulfill the kinds of tropes and ideas that I want to see fulfilled. You can say that every Martial class uses ki to some extent or another, but I simply think it is more fun if you reserve the idea of "ki" for swordmasters who unleash air slashes and martial artists who can shoot beams of energy from their palms.
Also, tropes are NOT a good source to base a class on. If anything, tropes found in one genre should merit their own sub-gaming system. So, if you go more Anime with your SwordSage/Samurai, it would only be fitting to theme an entire setting around them.
I will flatly disagree. There is no real basis for any D&D class other than genre tropes of differing kinds. Also, mixing together and permitting different genres to exist side by side is another great strength of D&D. Trying to limit D&D to one genre is impossible, since it already has taken so much inspiration from so many different genres (epic fantasy, mythology, sword and sorcery fantasy, Lovecraftian horror, pulp, noir, science fiction, mystery, etc).
To conclude with another Pirate example: I can't force an entire crew of average D&D players to play my type of Pirate game, can I? Including lots of Anime Stuff would be like dropping treasure galleons, black powder weaponry, annoying speech habits, and even more annoying pets** onto an unsuspecting bunch of Dungeoncrawlers who signed up in for some remotely medival hack'n'slashing.
This makes no sense at all. The existence of a class inspired by Hong Kong action movies in no way forces the game to resemble a Hong Kong action movie. The existence of a Samurai class does not force the game to look like either a Kurosawa film or a random anime. The existence of a pirate class does not turn the game into Pirates of the Caribbean.
Also, stop using the word "anime", since you simply are not using it in the right context. Anime is not a genre. Anime is not some toxin filled with assumptions that would change D&D in the slightest. The air slash swordsman idea is probably more thoroughly inspired by various Japanese videogames that rip off of D&D more than they do anime anyways. The entire anime thing is not really related to the discussion at hand at all.
Trust me, it is indeed most wise to keep Dungeons&Dragons at a basic level, on which everybody can expand their personal game into a certain direction, no matter if your game or campaign is based on fantasy novels, accurate research, some general or specific cultural ideas, just a couple of tropes, or whatever else you make of it. Nothing wrong with either approach, but there's little reason to include that all into one big game, 'cos just as with the Samurai, you can't please all fans. That is true for going into a single direction too much - taking too much from Tropes in this instance - for it would alienate a part of the customer base. You yourself said that the Samurai of previous editions didn't work...
The samurai of previous editions did not work because they were bland and devoid of anything interesting. The 3e Samurai failed because it was just a Fighter without all the bonus feats and a trick that let you build up a mundane weapon into a magical one. It had honor (which ended up being unimportant to the mechanics of the class entirely) and an "ancestral daisho" (not something I would consider a central part of a samurai class) and not much else. The 3.5e samurai failed because it was built around mundane two-weapon fighting, so it was neither flashy and interesting or terribly loyal to history. Basically, both failed because they didn't really appeal to anyone, not because they were designed to appeal to a certain fanbase.
Also, I will always hold that the best way to make D&D a game that can appeal to everyone is to give people the tools they need to turn D&D into anything, not to keep D&D bland and generic. And I like 4e so much in part because it embraces the idea of creating so much that has specific flavor and strong ideas, rather than old approach of assuming everyone had a bland group of a generic Fighters, Rogues, Wizards, and Clerics. Really, if you the game to appeal to a lot of people, it is better to say "that class is not for me, but it is probably good for someone" when confronted by a class with flavor and mechanics you don't like, rather than to say that the class should not exist.
Also, I will always hold that the best way to make D&D a game that can appeal to everyone is to give people the tools they need to turn D&D into anything, not to keep D&D bland and generic. And I like 4e so much in part because it embraces the idea of creating so much that has specific flavor and strong ideas, rather than old approach of assuming everyone had a bland group of a generic Fighters, Rogues, Wizards, and Clerics. Really, if you the game to appeal to a lot of people, it is better to say "that class is not for me, but it is probably good for someone" when confronted by a class with flavor and mechanics you don't like, rather than to say that the class should not exist.
This, so very very this.
What I can't stand about most samurai/ninja (or any other theoretical class) haters is that they seem to be all about telling other people what can't be in D&D. They act as if the existence of a single class would ruin the entire system. If you don't like a class than don't play it and if you're the DM ban it, but don't stand in the way of those of us who are just in interested seeing the game expand into new territories.
This, so very very this.
What I can't stand about most samurai/ninja (or any other theoretical class) haters is that they seem to be all about telling other people what can't be in D&D. They act as if the existence of a single class would ruin the entire system. If you don't like a class than don't play it and if you're the DM ban it, but don't stand in the way of those of us who are just in interested seeing the game expand into new territories.
I think the case is that where you see "expanding" some of us see "spiraling".
I think you need to be willing to compromise; the Samurai and Ninjas we all want will be represented as well as other concepts similar to Samurai and Ninja that are just as important regardless of what the classes are called, I think it would be much more liberating and sensical to many more players to have a class that relates to the cosmology of D&D more so than it does RL Japan.
I think it would be much more liberating and sensical to many more players to have a class that relates to the cosmology of D&D more so than it does RL Japan.
Right because it's not like there aren't already names relating to numerous cultures. Paladin and Druid are distinctly European in origin. Deva and Rakshasa are Indian. We even already have an aspect of Japanese myths in the form of Oni. There are probably numerous other examples. None of these bog the game down with needless cultural baggage and instead take on forms that are uniquely D&D. Why should it be any different with the names Samurai and Ninja?
Like it or not D&D has always drawn upon cultural myths from all over the world.
Right because it's not like there aren't already names relating to numerous cultures. Paladin and Druid are distinctly European in origin. Deva and Rakshasa are Indian. We even already have an aspect of Japanese myths in the form of Oni. There are probably numerous other examples. None of these bog the game down with needless cultural baggage and instead take on forms that are uniquely D&D. Why should it be any different with the names Samurai and Ninja?
Like it or not D&D has always drawn upon cultural myths from all over the world.
We also have the kensai as a fighter paragon path. Which supports both yours and McNancy's views about the samurai and ninja. They could be done via MC feats, Paragon Path, full class, or not at all. They might also get renamed to remove some stigmas in the way the aasimar became the deva, or the druid was split into multiple classes so all the archetypes tied to druid were covered without making one large bulky OP/UP class (the fate of the older edition bard and druid).
Paladin and Druid are distinctly European in origin. Deva and Rakshasa are Indian.
Yep. And when they all first showed up in D&D, they all had way too much cultural baggage; but they got to stick around because after awhile they ditched their RL roots and took on their own meanings within D&D, mostly because nobody was too attached to their cultural backround in the first place. Samurai's been around awhile to, but it's also been on TV and comics the whole time, so it never got away from it's cultural roots, Samurai's cultural origin is part of what makes it so popular. Samurai has never been able to readapt to D&D, because nobody really wants it to loose it's meaning, and we keep getting reminded about it's meaning everytime it shows up on TV or comics. D&D can not adopt Samurai as it's own because it still has a huge fanbase and other media outlets, unlike the Paladin or Druid
Consider this, these days the words Druid or Paladin have way more history and meaning in D&D and D&D inspired fantasy then they do in real life, TV, comics or anime. The same cannot be said for Samurai or Ninjas.
One side is saying there should be a samurai class, and the other is saying that samurai should be concept you can build with any of a few select classes? Right?
What's wrong with both? Samurai can be a class...it was before (albeit a terrible ripoff of the paladin at the time), and there's nothing wrong with it being a proper 4e class this time around. But even so, what would be wrong with other styles of samurai being expressed through variant builds of other classes? It wouldn't make those builds LESS samurai, it would just make them different, uniquely so.
There's the traditional samurai
The musashi samurai
The various styles of anime samurai
The movie samurai such as The Last Samurai or Shogun
There's a lot of room in each of those too. The same is true of most archetypes, really.
Everyone has the same occupation...adventurer. Role is the department in which you work. Your position is determined by the manner in which you fulfill the needs of your department. In 4e, it's largely irrelevant how you do so. A samurai-styled fighter, ranger, or anything else is no less valid than a true samurai class...assuming reasonable power options exist for the fighter to be a samurai.
Here's the rub. Samurai may not be able to have powers that separate them from Fighters or whatever...but there can be class features that make a samurai class completely and totally distinct from any other melee class...no matter which style of samurai you use. So what to do? You could make samurai a build of fighter, but you'd never be able to play a musashi-style samurai that way...you'd need a ranger for that.
That's the real problem I think. How to go about making something like that viable for multiple classes (if they don't make a straight samurai class), and cutting off the homebrew stupidity that would otherwise inevitably flood the boards. I mean, let's face it, the vast majority of the homebrew people put out on these boards just...well, sucks. It's very often overpowered, redundant, uninteresting, throwbacks to 3.x, overcomplicated, and/or just plain unnecessary in any reasonable way. So, instead of forbidding homebrew classes, make it so there's just no need for them.
If there were a samurai class with a few different stylistic builds, as well as stylistic samurai build options for the few classes appropriate to it, why would anyone ever homebrew a samurai except to be a munchkin...or some equally pointless individual?
This is crap...now I wish WotC would do just that...but I know they won't. Oh well.
What's wrong with both? Samurai can be a class...it was before (albeit a terrible ripoff of the paladin at the time),
Er, which one? As I recall, there were THREE different classes with the name Samurai. I'd like a bit of creativity in naming, please?
Mcnancy, no class is based on mechanics. They are all based on style!
A samurai-styled fighter, ranger, or anything else is no less valid than a true samurai class...assuming reasonable power options exist for the fighter to be a samurai.
This, I think, is the crux of the matter. Should these ideas that have been mentioned (anime samurai, fantasy ninja, etc.) be a full class, a class subset, a multiclass feat chain, a paragon path, or an epic destiny? Ultimatecalibur stated that no classes are based on mechanics - it would be more proper to say no archetype/character is based on mechanics. Classes are the mechanics imposed to fit an archetype into the game system. Yes, one could be a barbarian without the Barbarian class but if you wanted a benefit in game for turning general-******-off-ness then you'd need the Rage mechanic provided by said class. A character is how you use those mechanics to tell the story of your character. This is where LuciferNietzsche's comment comes in: I -and this is an opinion- think that there are already enough mechanical elements to play what's been mentioned. For example:
I'll admit that I have not actually seen the Swordmage class myself, but I know that the class is essentially a wizard who carries a sword around, with all of its powers being about pure magical effects like flight and fireballs that use a sword as an implement, rather than actual physical attacks and sword techniques, so it is nothing at all like what I want to see. Just replacing a word doesn't change the fundamental difference.
-words in bold are mine-
Such a class would be capable of essentially teleporting see below and attacking at long range with a sword by launching out energy shockwave slashessee below. I like the idea of even giving close burst sword strikes and other area of effect attacks with melee weaponssee below plus the class has even more. This class would have nothing but powers with the "Weapon" keyword, not use an Implement at all swordmages can use their weapon as an implement.
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
level 3
Half-Elf, Samurai (Swordmage)
Uncanny Parry (Swordmage Aegis - bonus to AC when lightly armored or nor armor): Quick Step (Aegis of Assault - mark a target, teleport to target if they attack someone else)
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 15, Con 14, Dex 13, Int 16, Wis 11, Cha 10.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 15, Con 12, Dex 13, Int 16, Wis 11, Cha 8.
AC: 14 Fort: 13 Reflex: 14 Will: 13
HP: 41 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 10
TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +9, Intimidate +6, Athletics +8, Endurance +8
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +2, Bluff +1, Diplomacy +3, Dungeoneering +1, Heal +1, History +4, Insight +3, Nature +1, Perception +1, Religion +4, Stealth +2, Streetwise +1, Thievery +2
FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Bastard sword)
Level 2: Quick Draw
POWERS
Swordmage at-will 1: Sword Burst - Close Burst, you hit everyone around you (think those moments when the cool character is surrounded by ruffians, thumbs his blade slightly out of the sheath and then you have screen flash and all the ruffians collapse).
Swordmage at-will 1: Luring Strike - hit, shift back, they follow (The samurai smoothly positions his enemy).
Swordmage encounter 1: Chilling Blow - hit and they take damage when they attack until the next turn (You channel your ki as you strike and do internal damage; when the enemy moves to attack they cough blood).
Swordmage daily 1: Dimensional Thunder - teleport and attack, plus damage to adjacents ("capable of essentially teleporting")
Half-Elf: Reaping Strike (Even though the enemy dodges, your channeled ki hits them) or Thunderwave (you slash forward as your ki explodes from your sword and carries your enemies with it)
Swordmage utility 2: Eldritch Speed - bonus to initiative and speed in the first turn of combat (The samurai does some of that fancy stuff with speed lines)
Swordmage encounter 3: Unseen Gauntlet - ranged attack that damages and immobilizes ("attacking at long range with a sword by launching out energy shockwave slashes.")
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
One could just have easily taken two-weapon fighting, or the multiclass Ranger feat, and then pick up the other multiclass feats and take some two-weapon slashing attacks in order to make a different samurai type.
One side is saying there should be a samurai class, and the other is saying that samurai should be concept you can build with any of a few select classes? Right?
What's wrong with both? Samurai can be a class...it was before (albeit a terrible ripoff of the paladin at the time), and there's nothing wrong with it being a proper 4e class this time around. But even so, what would be wrong with other styles of samurai being expressed through variant builds of other classes? It wouldn't make those builds LESS samurai, it would just make them different, uniquely so.
This has actually always been my point. In fact, it seems to me that most of the supporters of samurai/ninja as classes also acknowledge that they are also concepts that can be built with multiple classes. Were as the opponents to samurai/ninja as classes seem to think that the mere existence of such classes would somehow interfere with the ability to create those concepts using any other class.
Then their are those that just seem to hate concepts for cultural reasons, who I really don't understand. There's just no point in being a hater. If one hates the concepts because one thinks D&D should be purely western tropes than just don't use the classes. If one hates the concepts because the they dislike overzealous fan-boys than not having the classes won't change anything, such fans will never be deterred merely by the fact that a class by said names doesn't exist.
This, I think, is the crux of the matter. Should these ideas that have been mentioned (anime samurai, fantasy ninja, etc.) be a full class, a class subset, a multiclass feat chain, a paragon path, or an epic destiny? Ultimatecalibur stated that no classes are based on mechanics - it would be more proper to say no archetype/character is based on mechanics. Classes are the mechanics imposed to fit an archetype into the game system. Yes, one could be a barbarian without the Barbarian class but if you wanted a benefit in game for turning general-******-off-ness then you'd need the Rage mechanic provided by said class. A character is how you use those mechanics to tell the story of your character. This is where LuciferNietzsche's comment comes in: I -and this is an opinion- think that there are already enough mechanical elements to play what's been mentioned.
Thank you for clarifying my point about class origins, but don't agree with your opinion that the forth coming and already existing classes and mechanics cover all of what we wish to see so the creation of a Samurai class is unnecessary. I have no problem with you having that opinion, but I do not believe arguing over which of these sides is what this thread should be about. The point I want and hope to prove is that WotC's decision to call the Ki power source untenable was poorly made and that publishing a book including Ki classes is a viable if not highly profitable option for WotC (or a 3rd party publisher).
This has actually always been my point. In fact, it seems to me that most of the supporters of samurai/ninja as classes also acknowledge that they are also concepts that can be built with multiple classes. Were as the opponents to samurai/ninja as classes seem to think that the mere existence of such classes would somehow interfere with the ability to create those concepts using any other class.
I agree that you can play a "concept" that bears the name of one class with an entirely different class, e.g. playing a Tactician who is a Wizard by class or a trickster rogue who is actually a Warlord.
But, the name still influences choice. Not having a Pirate/ Ninja/ Samurai/ Airbender/ Jack Sparrow class makes you think: "What can I use?" whereas the existence of said classes will have most people pick the one with the label they fancy.
I had a young player - tho' not in my regular group - who wanted to play a Ninja, so we took the books to find how we can make the Ninja work. This approach was more fun and gave him more insight into the game than just picking a Ninja class would have been.
All in all, back to the issue of cultural baggage, I can naught but quote Mcnancy's statement regarding Paladins and Druids for its truth:
And when they all first showed up in D&D, they all had way too much cultural baggage; but they got to stick around because after awhile they ditched their RL roots and took on their own meanings within D&D, mostly because nobody was too attached to their cultural backround in the first place.
Samurai's been around awhile to, but it's also been on TV and comics the whole time, so it never got away from it's cultural roots, Samurai's cultural origin is part of what makes it so popular.
Indeed, nobody thinks of a Paladin as a Teutonic Knight or Knight Templar anymore, nor do most people link the Druid to their celtic origins anymore. With 4E, even the bleedin' mistletoe got scrapped, and that's a bloody good thing too.
If you don't mind a short anecdote, I have had players to whom any type of Cleric meant Roman-Catholic Priest: One of them even played a Priest of Kord, 4E's God of Warfare, in a 4E game like that before switching to Pelor. So, with this and similar instances in mind, Mcnancy's point regarding the cultural background of the Samurai holds even more true.
What we are arguing here, is that some concepts carry more weight than others, which makes it harder to incorporate into a "generic" setting. Even more so, if there 's the question whether a concept can't be represented with what 's already here.
Also, as I said before, the existance of such concepts can give the game a different spin or feel, which, I believe should be up for the tastes of a group to decide. Having had a couple of naval themed stories in my 3.5 campaign irritated some of the players (especially the guy who later played the Roman-Kordolic Priest), but then I warned them beforehand.
Houseruling something "in" is a better method than houseruling something "out" in my experience.
Cheers!
Captn M.
PS: There is a distinct line between Trope and Archetype. Tropes are an overused breed of clichées, whereas an archetype is a concept that carries more universal value.
PPS: Tom Cruise is NOT a good example of what a Samurai class should be about.
If there were a samurai class with a few different stylistic builds, as well as stylistic samurai build options for the few classes appropriate to it, why would anyone ever homebrew a samurai except to be a munchkin...or some equally pointless individual?
Samurai overkill is not what D&D needs. If it's a class and a build for other classes, you 'd need the same for each and every other class out there... Also, you can be a perfect munchkin what 's in the books - hurhurhur! (just me lil joke, savvy?)
But, the name still influences choice. Not having a Pirate/ Ninja/ Samurai/ Airbender/ Jack Sparrow class makes you think: "What can I use?" whereas the existence of said classes will have most people pick the one with the label they fancy.
I had a young player - tho' not in my regular group - who wanted to play a Ninja, so we took the books to find how we can make the Ninja work. This approach was more fun and gave him more insight into the game than just picking a Ninja class would have been.
That's nice. But the mere existence of a class by the appropriate name still doesn't have to stop that. Players can, and should, always decide what a concept means to them personally and then look for the best class to represent that concept. All the existent classes can already be seen to create presumption issues for those who judge them only by name, whether it's that all barbarians are dumb brutes, all paladins are self-righteous zealots, or all rogues are thieves. Fighter is a pretty big offender since it's name suggests an offensive class, but it is actually a defensive class.
A classes name is often going to be the first thing players, especially new one, look at when building a character. Good players will read on from there in order to decide if the class actually fits there own personal concept and good DM will encourage and help new players to do so.
All in all, back to the issue of cultural baggage, I can naught but quote Mcnancy's statement regarding Paladins and Druids for its truth:And when they all first showed up in D&D, they all had way too much cultural baggage; but they got to stick around because after awhile they ditched their RL roots and took on their own meanings within D&D, mostly because nobody was too attached to their cultural backround in the first place.
Samurai's been around awhile to, but it's also been on TV and comics the whole time, so it never got away from it's cultural roots, Samurai's cultural origin is part of what makes it so popular.
And yet that doesn't have to be the case. Back in 3.5, two friends I play with used the ninja class (one in a homebrew setting and the other in Eberron). In neither case was there a part of the world with overt Japanese cultural overtones. Neither character behaved in a stereotypical Japanese fashion. In fact no other references to Japan or Japanese concepts were ever made. They just played as sneaky rogue-like characters with some cool magical abilities. Is that kind of maturity and ability to distinguish between genres really so rare?
Most people who want a Shadow Striker, whether they call it assassin, ninja, or shadowdancer are all talking about the same thing (a rose by any other name). The exact name used really doesn't matter in the end. I support ninja over assassin because it is more obviously mystical nature and has fewer villainous connotations. I support ninja over shadowdancer because it has wider recognition outside of long time D&D gamers.
Is that kind of maturity and ability to distinguish between genres really so rare?
As I 'ave naught but me experiences of 16 years o' gamin' on that matter t' share, I 'd say ye been verrry lucky thar, matey.
Besides, I 'm no Samurai Hater, and I agree that you could play a Samurai with little cultural overtones, I still find more difficult to pull off than with a Paladin or Druid. Wenders and Whitaker got it right in "Ghostdog: Way of the Samurai" to a large extent but it also showed that you can't seperate the Samurai entirely from their origins. Still, while I like the movie a lot, I 'm afraid that for every Ghostdog Forest Whitaker out there you 'd get dozens of Last Samurai's Tom Cruise or even worse.
The things I outlined here are some of the reasons why I find it difficult to incorporate such content-ladden names into the game as a full-fledged class. I 'd have the same problems with the Paladin or Battle Cleric if the class were called Knight Templar or Teutonic Knight. I 'd really like to see a special built in the game that allows to create a Samurai character and helps a character to include multiple builds for exactly the Samurai they want.
Cheers!
Captn M.
PS: As for naming a Shadow Striker class, I 've got nothing against Ninja, but I like the other two better. Regarding the Assassin, I like its style and I 'd like to see its evil overtones getting thrown overboard - especially due to its RL connotations - while I prefer the Shadowdancer as a concept (even tho' it was horribly implemented before) and for the name, as it already is a special concept in D&D. However, I concur that both names don't have much traction.
Still, while I like the movie a lot, I 'm afraid that for every Ghostdog Forest Whitaker out there you 'd get dozens of Last Samurai's Tom Cruise or even worse.
I actually enjoyed Last Samurai, though it's certainly nothing to base a samurai class on, but nothing based on real life samurai (however loosely) would ever be. For a samurai class to ever be distinct from the fighter it would likely need to be based mostly, if not entirely, on fantasy presentations of samurai.
I 'd have the same problems with the Paladin or Battle Cleric if the class were called Knight Templar or Teutonic Knight.
I actually would love to see a templar class (Divine Strike that wears heavy armor). Though maybe that just because of my "lucky" play experience.
Regarding the Assassin, I like its style and I 'd like to see its evil overtones getting thrown overboard - especially due to its RL connotations
What real life connotations would those be? It's my understanding that assassin are seen in just as bad a light, if not worse, in real life. If you're were trying to make reference Hashshashin, it is my understanding that the Avenger class is commonly considered to fill that archetype.
That's nice. But the mere existence of a class by the appropriate name still doesn't have to stop that.
And yet that doesn't have to be the case.
You keep saying "doesn't have to"; none of us are saying that this is the way it should be, I for one do not advocate closed mindedness. A player doesn't have to use a rule book or have rules to play D&D, and if we all were perfectly sound minded players the rulebook would only get in the way; but thats not the way it work.
Samurai and Ninjas in D&D should be like the patriarchal ideology of America: we have it, we use it, it works great, but we can only enjoy and prosper from it as long as we don't make it an offical rule; if it was offical woman couldn't do much, and if we didn't have it at all the country would be disorganized(unless we were perfectly sound minded people), it works best when only implied. ;)
You keep saying "doesn't have to"; none of us are saying that this is the way it should be, I for one do not advocate closed mindedness. A player doesn't have to use a rule book or have rules to play D&D, and if we all were perfectly sound minded players the rulebook would only get in the way; but thats not the way it work.
Are you seriously going to go with, "the majority of D&D players are too ignorant and stupid", as your argument why there can't be a samurai or ninja class?
Seriously, if that's the entire foundation of your argument, I just feel sad for you. Sad that you are that pessimistic and sad if that's is somehow the only kind of people you've ever gamed with.
I think the Warlord is the closest we have to a real world samari....however I would love to see a mixed Warlord Avengr/swordmage class coem out.
Role: Leader, Second in Stiker or Defender baased on build
Prime stat Str...secondary Int or Cha
build 1: Injitsu/Anime master quick draw for free
build 2 General/Warrior scholor toughness for free
I think it would be great...
"the majority of D&D players are too ignorant and stooped"
I never said that. Ignornace has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
I'm saying that the preconceptions and stereotypes around Samurai and Ninjas are just like any other preconceptions and stereotypes, they're not going to go away simply because they should.
It's not something that's going to ruin the game, it's just not a path we should go down.
I have said it before and I will say it aagin...
I think the Warlord is the closest we have to a real world samari....however I would love to see a mixed Warlord Avengr/swordmage class coem out.
Role: Leader, Second in Stiker or Defender baased on build
Prime stat Str...secondary Int or Cha
build 1: Injitsu/Anime master quick draw for free
build 2 General/Warrior scholor toughness for free
I think it would be great...
here is like an hour and a half with it, and I alreaady have two builds...not that I think they are perfect, but I might try to post this ove on the hombrew board, becuse I do knid like it...
mysticswordsman
Mystic Swordsmen
You do not just face me, but 200 years of my ancestors behind me
Class Traits
Role: Leader. With inspiration and the spirits of those that came before you, you rally the troops, and maneuver the field of battle. You are a leader of men, and spirits at once.
Source: Primal. You channel the spirits of your ancestors to the point of your weapon.
Key Abilities: Wisdom, Intelligence and Dexterity
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth Armor, Leather Armor, Hide Armor
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple Melee, Simple Ranged, Military Melee, Military Ranged plus katana, unarmed strike
Implement: Light blades, Heavy Blades, Staff, and unarmed
Bonus to Defense: +1 Fortitude, +1 Will
Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 5
Healing Surges: 7 + Constitution modifier
Trained Skills: History plus others. From the class skills list below, choose more trained skills at 1st level.
Class Skills: Athletics (Str), Diplomacy (Cha), Endurance (Con), Heal (Wis), History (Int), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Nature (Wis), Religion (Int)
Build Options: Injitsu Swordsman, Shielding Swordsman
Class Features: Mystic Focus, Spiritual Leader, Word of the ghost, Counsel of the Elders
You are one with the spirit world, and at the same time walk in ours. You have trained not only with the best swordsmen of your time, but the spirits of the best swordsmen ever
MYSTIC SWORDSMEN OVERVIEW
Characteristics:
Religion:
Races:
Creating a Mystic Swordsmen
Injitsu Swordsman
You minor in Striker; you focus your willpower to the point of your blade. You can out duel almost any swordsmen alive.
Suggested Feat: Focus Expertise
Suggested Skills:
Suggested At-Will Power: Injitsu Strike, Spirit Strike
Suggested Encounter Power: Strike like the wind
Suggested Daily Power: Spirit of War
Shielding Swordsman
you minor in defender; You focus your time not on slaying, but defending, each sword blow puts you instead of your allies in harms way.
Suggested Feat: Durable
Suggested Skills:
Suggested At-Will Power: Defensive Strike, Materialize Ancestor Spirit
Suggested Encounter Power: Saving Slash
Suggested Daily Power: Spirit of Speed
Mystic Swordsmen Class Features
Every Mystic Swordsmen shares these class features.
Mystic Focus
You channel your focus into one of the two options. You only gain these abilities in light or no armor.
Injitsu Focus
You add your Dexterity modifier to damage with all encounter and daily powers. You Also gain Quick Draw as a bonus feat
Shielding Focus
You gain Toughness as a bonus feat. You add a +1 per tier to your AC, Any adjacent Ally also gains this as a Power bonus to there AC
Spiritual Leader
You have a knack for empowering all of your allies
Iron Mind
You and each Ally within 10 squares gain a +2 power bonus to Insight and Perseption.
Word of the ghost
Using this power, Mystic Swordsmen can bond their comrades with spirits of dead warriors adding resilience and Strength.
Counsel of the Elders
You may enter a trance like state that allows you to commune with your Ancestor spirits. You may do this once perday on an extended rest. It takes 1 hour. You ask a single question of mysterious, extraplanar presences about matters beyond your ken. Make a Wisdom check with a +10 bonus instead of an Arcana or a History check to uncover a clue, remember a bit of lore, or otherwise gain information about the world around you. The ritual grants you a single piece of information. That information can take the form of a word, a name, a phrase, or even a brief story, depending on what exactly you’re looking for. You can learn the name of the usurper who ended the Katerran Dynasty a thousand years ago, the burial rites of the Crimson Wolf clan, or the weaknesses of the shadow assassins who have been dogging your steps. The ritual can’t uncover information beyond the ken of the most learned sages. It’s of no use if you’re trying to find the magic word that unlocks the vampire’s crypt, because only the vampire knows the word. Nor can the power tell you definitively where great stores of treasure are, but the Ancestors could tell you where a specific empress kept her treasury in ancient times or whether the treasure was looted when her empire fell.
Mystic Swordsmen Powers
Class Features
Word of the Ghost Mystic Swordsmen Feature
_______________________
Encounter ✦ Primal, Healing
Minor Action Close burst
Target: You or 1 Ally in Burst
_______________________
Effect: The target can spend a healing surge and regain an additional 1d6 hit points. The amount of additional hit points regained is 2d6 at 6th level, 3d6 at 11th level, 4d6 at 16th level, 5d6 at 21st level, and 6d6 at 26th level.
Special: You can use this power twice per encounter, but only once per round. At 16th level, you can use this power three times per encounter.
Powers
Defensive Strike Mystic Swordsmen Attack 1
_______________________
At-Will ✦ Primal, Weapon
Standard Action Melee
Target: 1 creature
Attack: Wis Vs AC
_______________________
Hit: 1[w]+ wis mod Increase to 2[w] at epic
Effect: Creature is marked by the mystic swordsman
Shielding Swordsman: IF the enemy attack does not include the swordsman then he takes pychic damage equal to the swordsman’s Int score (add +1d4 at 15th level and +2d4 at 25th)
Injitsu Strike Mystic Swordsmen Attack 1
_______________________
At-Will ✦ Primal, Weapon
Standard Action Melee
Target: 1 creature
Attack: Wis Vs AC
_______________________
Hit: 1[w]+ wis mod +1d6 Increase to +2d6 at paragon, and 2[w]+3d6 at epic
Injitsu Swordsman: You may use this as an immediate interrupt in any surprise round, the trigger is an enemy attacks you with a close or melee attack.
Materialize Ancestor Spirit Mystic Swordsmen Attack 1
_______________________
At-Will ✦ Primal, Conjuration
Standard Action Ranged 5
_______________________
Effect: One enemy within range is flanked until the end of the Mystic swordsmen’s next turn
Spirit Strike Mystic Swordsmen Attack 1
_______________________
At-Will ✦ Primal, Implement, Psychic
Standard Action Ranged 5
Target: 1 creature
Attack: Wis Vs Will
_______________________
Hit: 1d8+Wis mod, Increase to 2d8 at epic level
Effect: Any allies adjacent to the target may shift 1 square as a free action
Saving Slash Mystic Swordsmen Attack 1
_______________________
Encounter ✦ Primal, Weapon
Immediate Interrupt Melee
Trigger: A creature attacks an ally within 3 squares
Target: Triggering enime
Attack: Wis Vs Fort
_______________________
Hit: 2[w] and push 2 squares
Effect: Ally that was being attacked may shift 1 as a free action
Strike like the wind Mystic Swordsmen Attack 1
_______________________
Encounter ✦ Primal, Weapon
Standard Action Melee
Attack: Wis Vs AC
_______________________
Hit: 2[w]+ wis mod
Effect: You may shift 2 and repeat the attack against a new target
Spirit of Speed Mystic Swordsmen Attack 1
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Daily ✦ Primal, Weapon
Standard Action Melee
Target: 1 creature
Attack: Wis Vs Ref
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Hit: 2[w]+ wis mod
Miss: repeat the attack, but if this one hits only 1/2 damage
Effect: You or an ally within 5 assumes the spirit of speed, until the end of the encounter they gain +2 to speed, and +1 to all defenses, along with the ability to as a minor action once per round shift 1 square.
Spirit of War Mystic Swordsmen Attack 1
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Daily ✦ Primal, Weapon
Standard Action Melee
Target: 1 creature
Attack: Wis Vs Ref
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Hit: 2[w]+ wis mod
Effect: You or an ally within 5 assumes the spirit of War, until the end of the encounter they gain resist weapon 3, and resist all 1, along with the ability to as a minor action once per round make a melee basic attack.
You do not just face me, but 200 years of my ancestors behind me
Class Traits
Role: Leader. With inspiration and the spirits of those that came before you, you rally the troops, and maneuver the field of battle. You are a leader of men, and spirits at once.
Source: Primal. You channel the spirits of your ancestors to the point of your weapon.
Key Abilities: Wisdom, Intelligence and Dexterity
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth Armor, Leather Armor, Hide Armor
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple Melee, Simple Ranged, Military Melee, Military Ranged plus katana, unarmed strike
Implement: Light blades, Heavy Blades, Staff, and unarmed
Bonus to Defense: +1 Fortitude, +1 Will
Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 5
Healing Surges: 7 + Constitution modifier
Trained Skills: History plus others. From the class skills list below, choose more trained skills at 1st level.
Class Skills: Athletics (Str), Diplomacy (Cha), Endurance (Con), Heal (Wis), History (Int), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Nature (Wis), Religion (Int)
Build Options: Injitsu Swordsman, Shielding Swordsman
Class Features: Mystic Focus, Spiritual Leader, Word of the ghost, Counsel of the Elders
You are one with the spirit world, and at the same time walk in ours. You have trained not only with the best swordsmen of your time, but the spirits of the best swordsmen ever
MYSTIC SWORDSMEN OVERVIEW
Characteristics:
Religion:
Races:
Creating a Mystic Swordsmen
Injitsu Swordsman
You minor in Striker; you focus your willpower to the point of your blade. You can out duel almost any swordsmen alive.
Suggested Feat: Focus Expertise
Suggested Skills:
Suggested At-Will Power: Injitsu Strike, Spirit Strike
Suggested Encounter Power: Strike like the wind
Suggested Daily Power: Spirit of War
Shielding Swordsman
you minor in defender; You focus your time not on slaying, but defending, each sword blow puts you instead of your allies in harms way.
Suggested Feat: Durable
Suggested Skills:
Suggested At-Will Power: Defensive Strike, Materialize Ancestor Spirit
Suggested Encounter Power: Saving Slash
Suggested Daily Power: Spirit of Speed
Mystic Swordsmen Class Features
Every Mystic Swordsmen shares these class features.
Mystic Focus
You channel your focus into one of the two options. You only gain these abilities in light or no armor.
Injitsu Focus
You add your Dexterity modifier to damage with all encounter and daily powers. You Also gain Quick Draw as a bonus feat
Shielding Focus
You gain Toughness as a bonus feat. You add a +1 per tier to your AC, Any adjacent Ally also gains this as a Power bonus to there AC
Spiritual Leader
You have a knack for empowering all of your allies
Iron Mind
You and each Ally within 10 squares gain a +2 power bonus to Insight and Perseption.
Word of the ghost
Using this power, Mystic Swordsmen can bond their comrades with spirits of dead warriors adding resilience and Strength.
Counsel of the Elders
You may enter a trance like state that allows you to commune with your Ancestor spirits. You may do this once perday on an extended rest. It takes 1 hour. You ask a single question of mysterious, extraplanar presences about matters beyond your ken. Make a Wisdom check with a +10 bonus instead of an Arcana or a History check to uncover a clue, remember a bit of lore, or otherwise gain information about the world around you. The ritual grants you a single piece of information. That information can take the form of a word, a name, a phrase, or even a brief story, depending on what exactly you’re looking for. You can learn the name of the usurper who ended the Katerran Dynasty a thousand years ago, the burial rites of the Crimson Wolf clan, or the weaknesses of the shadow assassins who have been dogging your steps. The ritual can’t uncover information beyond the ken of the most learned sages. It’s of no use if you’re trying to find the magic word that unlocks the vampire’s crypt, because only the vampire knows the word. Nor can the power tell you definitively where great stores of treasure are, but the Ancestors could tell you where a specific empress kept her treasury in ancient times or whether the treasure was looted when her empire fell.
Mystic Swordsmen Powers
Class Features
Word of the Ghost Mystic Swordsmen Feature
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Encounter ✦ Primal, Healing
Minor Action Close burst
Target: You or 1 Ally in Burst
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Effect: The target can spend a healing surge and regain an additional 1d6 hit points. The amount of additional hit points regained is 2d6 at 6th level, 3d6 at 11th level, 4d6 at 16th level, 5d6 at 21st level, and 6d6 at 26th level.
Special: You can use this power twice per encounter, but only once per round. At 16th level, you can use this power three times per encounter.
Powers
Defensive Strike Mystic Swordsmen Attack 1
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At-Will ✦ Primal, Weapon
Standard Action Melee
Target: 1 creature
Attack: Wis Vs AC
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Hit: 1[w]+ wis mod Increase to 2[w] at epic
Effect: Creature is marked by the mystic swordsman
Shielding Swordsman: IF the enemy attack does not include the swordsman then he takes pychic damage equal to the swordsman’s Int score (add +1d4 at 15th level and +2d4 at 25th)
Injitsu Strike Mystic Swordsmen Attack 1
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At-Will ✦ Primal, Weapon
Standard Action Melee
Target: 1 creature
Attack: Wis Vs AC
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Hit: 1[w]+ wis mod +1d6 Increase to +2d6 at paragon, and 2[w]+3d6 at epic
Injitsu Swordsman: You may use this as an immediate interrupt in any surprise round, the trigger is an enemy attacks you with a close or melee attack.
Materialize Ancestor Spirit Mystic Swordsmen Attack 1
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At-Will ✦ Primal, Conjuration
Standard Action Ranged 5
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Effect: One enemy within range is flanked until the end of the Mystic swordsmen’s next turn
Spirit Strike Mystic Swordsmen Attack 1
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At-Will ✦ Primal, Implement, Psychic
Standard Action Ranged 5
Target: 1 creature
Attack: Wis Vs Will
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Hit: 1d8+Wis mod, Increase to 2d8 at epic level
Effect: Any allies adjacent to the target may shift 1 square as a free action
Saving Slash Mystic Swordsmen Attack 1
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Encounter ✦ Primal, Weapon
Immediate Interrupt Melee
Trigger: A creature attacks an ally within 3 squares
Target: Triggering enime
Attack: Wis Vs Fort
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Hit: 2[w] and push 2 squares
Effect: Ally that was being attacked may shift 1 as a free action
Strike like the wind Mystic Swordsmen Attack 1
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Encounter ✦ Primal, Weapon
Standard Action Melee
Attack: Wis Vs AC
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Hit: 2[w]+ wis mod
Effect: You may shift 2 and repeat the attack against a new target
Spirit of Speed Mystic Swordsmen Attack 1
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Daily ✦ Primal, Weapon
Standard Action Melee
Target: 1 creature
Attack: Wis Vs Ref
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Hit: 2[w]+ wis mod
Miss: repeat the attack, but if this one hits only 1/2 damage
Effect: You or an ally within 5 assumes the spirit of speed, until the end of the encounter they gain +2 to speed, and +1 to all defenses, along with the ability to as a minor action once per round shift 1 square.
Spirit of War Mystic Swordsmen Attack 1
_______________________
Daily ✦ Primal, Weapon
Standard Action Melee
Target: 1 creature
Attack: Wis Vs Ref
_______________________
Hit: 2[w]+ wis mod
Effect: You or an ally within 5 assumes the spirit of War, until the end of the encounter they gain resist weapon 3, and resist all 1, along with the ability to as a minor action once per round make a melee basic attack.
I'm saying that the preconceptions and stereotypes around Samurai and Ninjas are just like any other preconceptions and stereotypes, they're not going to go away simply because they should.
Your right that such preconceptions won't just go away just because they should, however, that's no reason to concede defeat to them either. The only way such preconceptions will go away is through conscious effort. Step one is for WotC to use the name separate from any cultural baggage, something they have proved able to do (introduction from 3.5's Complete Adventurer).
[INDENT]Ninjas move through the shadows, striking down the unwary and vanishing again with ease. Ninjas walk where others cannot. They blend their training in stealth and assassination with a focused mind. Their rigorous preparation sharpens their minds and bodies, giving them supernatural abilities of stealth and making them phantoms in the eyes of many. Although ninjas in battle lack the staying power of martial characters such as fighters or barbarians, they excel at making combat occur on their terms---appearing and disappearing seemingly at a whim.
Historically, ninjas came from clans of assassins and guerrilla warriors in Japan. In a fantasy setting, they blend a gift for stealth and infiltration with devastating surprise attacks and supernatural means of avoiding blows. Although the specific abilities of the class differ from those attributed to the historical ninja , they mirror the ninja's fearsome reputation as a spy, assassin, martial artist.[/INDENT]
The first paragraph reads culture neutral and the word ninja could be replaced with anything else (such as shadowdance) without making a difference. The second paragraph is less neutral, but primarily serves to make a point that the class, while based on the name's history, is also its own distinct concept within the framework of D&D. Considering that 4e classes have substantially less flavor text than 3.5 classes, it should be even easier to present a ninja that is free of any cultural baggage (save what the reader brings to it, but WotC cannot be held responsible for the reader's preconceptions)
It's not something that's going to ruin the game, it's just not a path we should go down.
Nothing ever gets fixed unless people try.
For me a samurai is embodied in Kurasawa's "Seven Samurai". Very much a martial class.
I don't really have a set concept for Ninja, a rogue-like class incorporating teleports, shadow powers and misdirection.
Bel
The only way such preconceptions will go away is through conscious effort.
Yes, but keep in mind that TV, Movies and Comics have been making a conscious effort to use those stereotypes and we would be working against what they're creating when they use the word Samurai or Ninja.
The only way the preconception can start to go away is if the samurai and/or ninja fade into obscurity, when they stop showing up in movies, TV and comics, only then could D&D start to adopt them as something fresh and malleable.
They're way too popluar and overdone within other media; the stereotypes attached to the name are too strong at this point in time, a bit in the flavor text can't dispell them.
They're way too popluar and overdone within other media; the stereotypes attached to the name are too strong at this point in time, a bit in the flavor text can't dispell them.
The fact that they are popular and overdone is exactly why D&D should use the names. They have traction, they will catch eyes, by mere presence they will draw new players into the game. Further more, because they are popular and overdone people are used to seeing them in a variety of interpretations, from realistic to fantastic, from stealthy to flashy, and everything in between. Shadow striker might not fit everyone's primary interpretation of what a ninja is but it will likely fit at least one image that most are likely to at least be familiar with. Sure there will always be narrow minded fanatics unwilling to compromise, but in general people will be willing to except whatever WotC presents as being the D&D definition of a ninja.
As for the stereotypes, so what? WotC can and likely will write such classes as culturaly neutral as all the other 4e class that have come before. The preconceptions that any reader bring with them should be of no concern. Let those who want to shackle the name to a culture do so, for the rest of us it can just be another addition to the ever expanding world of Dungeons & Dragons.
The fact that they are popular and overdone is exactly why D&D should use the names. They have traction, they will catch eyes, by mere presence they will draw new players into the game. Further more, because they are popular and overdone people are used to seeing them in a variety of interpretations, from realistic to fantastic, from stealthy to flashy, and everything in between. Shadow striker might not fit everyone's primary interpretation of what a ninja is but it will likely fit at least one image that most are likely to at least be familiar with. Sure there will always be narrow minded fanatics unwilling to compromise, but in general people will be willing to except whatever WotC presents as being the D&D definition of a ninja.
Adding in popular concepts and archetypes from TV, Movies and Comics to attract more players; maybe while were at it we can make a Spiderman class and a Jonas Brother race. Those are not the kind of things we should be trying to draw in new player with, Pop culture should be something players choose to add to their game through flavoring.
You think players should be smart enough to ignore all the problems that come with a Samurai or Ninja class; well I think players should be smart enough to make a samurai or ninja using the mechanics that WotC provides for us without needing them to actually be called Samurai or Ninja, so I don't think we should bother calling them that.
You say I don't give players enough credit, that I underestimate them; yet you seem to think that a class is better off having more "traction" so that the direction of the character has already been picked for you.
What's funny about the word "traction" is that it means 'no wiggling', 'set in it's ways' or in other words 'it only doe's one thing'. I like a little wiggle room in my classes.
What's funny about the word "traction" is that it means 'no wiggling', 'set in it's ways' or in other words 'it only doe's one thing'. I like a little wiggle room in my classes.
I do not think this word means what you think it means.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/traction
Adding in popular concepts and archetypes from TV, Movies and Comics to attract more players; maybe while were at it we can make a Spiderman class and a Jonas Brother race. Those are not the kind of things we should be trying to draw in new player with, Pop culture should be something players choose to add to their game through flavoring.
Now you're just being ridiculous. Your contrived examples are specific characters appearing only in their own media. Concepts like ninja and samurai appear in numerous fictional sources, and have long been staples of fantasy RPG video games.
You think players should be smart enough to ignore all the problems that come with a Samurai or Ninja class; well I think players should be smart enough to make a samurai or ninja using the mechanics that WotC provides for us without needing them to actually be called Samurai or Ninja, so I don't think we should bother calling them that.
I fully support players finding their own way to represent their favorite archetypes. I don't support a ninja class because I think its the only way to portray the archetype. I support a ninja class because I think it's the best name for a particular power source + role combination (shadow striker).
You say I don't give players enough credit, that I underestimate them; yet you seem to think that a class is better off having more "traction" so that the direction of the character has already been picked for you.
I'm not trying to straight-jacket anyone. When I say that I want a shadow strike called ninja, I am largely referring to the same concepts other people mean when they say assassin or shadowdanace. I support the name ninja because I feel it has the widest appeal.
What's funny about the word "traction" is that it means 'no wiggling', 'set in it's ways' or in other words 'it only doe's one thing'. I like a little wiggle room in my classes.
Except that "traction" in this type of conversation means something closer to "interesting" or "memorable", particularly across a wide audience. It's a term that the folks at WotC have been using quite a bit when discussing how they decide what to include in 4e.
interesting or memorable comes from things that you haven't seen before, things you make yourself or something with the potential to be either.
Overdone anime versions of Samurai or Ninjas are anything but interesting or memorable, they're cliches and IMO they have plenty of outlets already both inside and out of D&D and giving them their own classes would be going down a multitude of slippery slopes.
You seem to be missing a major point. Why are concepts like ninja and samurai overdone? Because they are memorable. Because people enjoy them. Because people want to see them again.
You also seem to be taking an overly negative stance towards anime and video games. The truth is that anime and video games are major media outlets, especially among D&D's target audience. It would be foolish for WotC to not tap them for every thing they can.
interesting or memorable comes from things that you haven't seen before, things you make yourself or something with the potential to be either.
New things can be interesting or memorable, but it's sort of hit or miss (usually with a lot more miss). I'm not saying that WotC shouldn't expand in new directions, it's important to explore new territory. However, it is equally important to acknowledge and accommodate the stuff they already know will work.
Air Slash = Farslayer Sword
Have fun.
Have fun.
I intend to.