Summary Notes: (If this is spoiling too much, I'll take it down.)
- Divine Controller, with a minor in Leader or Striker, depending upon build.
- Abilities: Wisdom, then Constitution and Intelligence.
- Chainmail. Simple melee/ranged weapons. Rods and staffs.
- Class bonus to Fort, Ref, and Will defenses.
- Flavoured as wielders of raw divine power, gifted from the gods, rather than as a mere worshiper like a Cleric.
- The Invoker gets Channel Divinity: Rebuke Undead, as well as another CD power determined by the Invoker's choice of Divine Covenant. (Read: The Invoker has a Divine analog of a Warlock's "pact".)
- Two different Covenants to choose from at this point. Each gives a different CD power, and a "Covenant Manifestation" -- a small bonus whenever you use a Divine Encounter or Daily attack power.
- Ritual Caster. Can use "Hand of Fate" once per day without expending components.
- Invokers have a preferred deity, like Clerics. However, they respect all the gods (including the hostile ones), and prefer to antagonize Primordials.
- Must have deity's alignment.
- Five 1st-level At-Will attack prayers to choose from: 3 Ranged, 2 Area; Lightning and Radiant damage are both popular. Two are usable as Ranged Basic attacks.
- Can summon a Medium "Angel of Fire" as a 1st-level Daily! It can be directed to make Standard Action attacks and Opportunity Attacks.
- Gets a Wall-power as one of his 2nd-level Utilities.
Wow. Human Invoker secondary defenses are gonna be ridiculous.
Truth.
The more I read this, the more I wanna make one! They sound supremely BA.
Truth.
The more I read this, the more I wanna make one! They sound supremely BA.
The Invoker. He's one bad mutha.
The Invoker. He's one bad mutha.
Completely. I especially like the part where it qualifies that even though his powers are called "prayers", they aren't supplications so much as they are manifestations of divine energy.
I keep imagining saying to my players when I introduce this class: "So, you want to be the incarnate will of God?"
Should work well with Rogues (and likely Avengers?) due to being able to slow at-will
(Mods: I tried to be vague about mechanics, but if I'm still spoiling too much, let me know and I shall gladdly take it down.)
No overt healing offered by the class, was hoping for a lay-on-hands level healing ability, seems to miss the hallmark of a Divine class, unless they're considering the CD as the hallmark. Would've preferred a 10 class play through than a 3 level.
Should work well with Rogues (and likely Avengers?) due to being able to slow at-will
Good point. I wouldn't say that healing is necessarily the hallmark of Divine characters though, it's just the shtick with which they have for too long been stuck. Obviously, the Invoker is out to blaze new trails for Divine characters, and frankly, I'm impressed with the results so far!
FWIW, he still has reasonably decent ally-buffs attached to some of his powers.
EDIT: Let me revise my last statement: The Invoker has a couple of attack powers which buff allies, and a few more which deal extra damage to enemies near (your) bloodied allies.
Good point. I wouldn't say that healing is necessarily the hallmark of Divine characters though, it's just the shtick with which they have for too long been stuck. Obviously, the Invoker is out to blaze new trails for Divine characters, and frankly, I'm impressed with the results so far!
Note that in 4e, healing is the domain of Leaders, not necessarily the Divine power source... Since the Invoker is a controller, not a leader, it makes sense that they don't heal.
From the flavor, it seems to be more of an update of the Favored Soul than a cloistered cleric, though it could cover both hats with the potential use of INT as a primary stat.
Note that in 4e, healing is the domain of Leaders, not necessarily the Divine power source... Since the Invoker is a controller, not a leader, it makes sense that they don't heal.
Agreed, although I was specifically responding to a comment which suggested that perhaps all Divine classes would have minor healing abilities, like the Paladin (a Defender) has.
Oddly enough, the invoker seems a little less 'squishy' than I expected, with the extra armor proficiencies. It's a little unusual for a class that sounds like most of its attacks are ranged. I suppose that the reasoning is that INT is a secondary instead of a primary stat, unlike the Wizard.
From the flavor, it seems to be more of an update of the Favored Soul than a cloistered cleric, though it could cover both hats with the potential use of INT as a primary stat.
Good observation about the Favored Soul; I had forgotten about that guy! Still, Invoker looks way cooler than Favored Soul ever really did. With the FS, it was way too hard to shake the feeling that you were just the illegitimate mechanical offspring of Cleric and Sorcerer. Good riddance.
Hello, Invoker!
(Note, I am not asking WHAT they are.)
basically the power is unusable until we know what that keyword does. It will dictate weather the thing has defenses or not, how long it persists, how it takes commands. A summoning will be a little like a conjuration I expect.
-INSERT CRAZY THOUGHT-
What if it is not a typo... and the creature lasts forever, until destroyed?
I like the Armor of Wrath feature. (cool visual)
I like the different approach to venerating the gods.
I like the white light/fire raining down in the picture.
The only catch for me was that the flavor text sorta stole the thunder from mere clerics, pallies, and avengers.
Overall, pretty bad*****.
FYI, if the power as the conjuration keyword, then as per the rules, the conjuration normally cannot be attacked. If it can, it has defenses of the same value as the summoner. IDK about HP, but I think that's how it all worked.
-INSERT CRAZY THOUGHT-
What if it is not a typo... and the creature lasts forever, until destroyed?
Then in that case we would need some manner of destroying it, which, like Serphet said, hinges upon us knowing exactly WTF the Summoning keyword means.
FYI, if the power as the conjuration keyword, then as per the rules, the conjuration normally cannot be attacked. If it can, it has defenses of the same value as the summoner. IDK about HP, but I think that's how it all worked.
-INSERT CRAZY THOUGHT-
What if it is not a typo... and the creature lasts forever, until destroyed?
Then some idiot is going to take a month of and summon 30 of the things and take us right back to '2 hours for the guy with his own army to do a single turn' land.
Wow! That really packs some punch!
I like the Armor of Wrath feature. (cool visual)
I like the different approach to venerating the gods.
I like the white light/fire raining down in the picture.
The only catch for me was that the flavor text sorta stole the thunder from mere clerics, pallies, and avengers.
Overall, pretty bad*****.
Naw! Paladins and Clerics just don't have novelty on their side, and Avenger, well, we really don't know anything about him at this point.
it has to do with the summoning keyword I'm sure.
basically the power is unusable until we know what that keyword does. It will dictate weather the thing has defenses or not, how long it persists, how it takes commands. A summoning will be a little like a conjuration I expect.
Right. I figured "summonings" must last until the end of the encounter (as someone mentioned) since there was no duration listed.
I noticed the Wall of Light (utility 2) wasn't a zone and was curious about that.
Except for the triggers, anyone else think the two covenant powers should maybe be reversed??
I like the Concept, Ill wait to see how people play it however.
Naw! Paladins and Clerics just don't have novelty on their side, and Avenger, well, we really don't know anything about him at this point.
Hopefully!!
Rebuke: I thought "rebuke" was a typo at first, but instead it's an interesting blast variant of turning. What sort of tactical impact does that have? And is dazed worse than immobilized??
Wizzy Flavor: Hm...the Seven Sisters and the Wizards of the White Robes flashed through my mind as I was reading the preview. I thought there might be something interesting there.
I suddenly find myself wondering about Invokers running around with Rods which were clearly designed for Warlocks. I haven't got my PH with me; are most of the Rods out there so far mechanically tied to Warlocks?
6 of the 8 rods in the PHB are tied to Warlocks; the standard "magic rod" and the rod of first blood are not. I'm sure there are options in AV, but I don't have it yet.
I suddenly find myself wondering about Invokers running around with Rods which were clearly designed for Warlocks. I haven't got my PH with me; are most of the Rods out there so far mechanically tied to Warlocks?
When the PHB2 comes out I suspect that Rods in there will have a tie to the Invoker in some way. After looking again at the rods available in the Adventurer's Vault I would say that two or three in 10 are not directly tied to the warlock currently.
And is dazed worse than immobilized??
I think dazed is a lot worse than immobilized, myself.
Staff and Rod is awsome by the way...
Staff and Rod is awsome by the way...
Indeed. They comfort me. (Kudos if anyone gets the reference...)
Sorry these guys are going to feel a lot like wizards at low levels, which is a sad thing, as the Druid showed that WotC could produce a Controller that wasn't a blaster.
Angel of Fire seems like it is a Flaming Sphere that uses up your Standard, Immediate and either Move or Minor actions...hurray that... unless Summoning breaks the pattern set by Conjurations and Wonderous Statues (which seems unlikely).
Not that impressed by this class mechanically, though I like the flavour concept.
Yes its a cool concept, but we need to stop treating Controller as another word for Blaster. The classes work far better at controlling the battlefield when they do things other than just damage a bunch of creatures.
at level 21 it goes from not getting any damage bonuses at all (since its not a roll) to getting a D10 and a full sett of bonuses. that could easily triple the damage, and with a staff of ruin it could do 4x the damage in single level.
Indeed. They comfort me. (Kudos if anyone gets the reference...)
That's hilarious! I was wondering why rods, and now I know.
Indeed. They comfort me. (Kudos if anyone gets the reference...)
I was gonna say that.
The Invoker. He's one bad mutha.
Shut yo' mouth!
I don't have a DDI subscription yet, but correct me if I'm wrong, this Invoker's flavor is wielding divine power against the primordials... So why Rebuke Undead?? It should have been REBUKE ELEMENTALS!! This is the needless symmetry fallacy ("all divine characters are good against undead")... I mean, we already have the Cleric being good against undead.
Uh-oh... I think I found a flaw they could have thought about...
I don't have a DDI subscription yet, but correct me if I'm wrong, this Invoker's flavor is wielding divine power against the primordials... So why Rebuke Undead?? It should have been REBUKE ELEMENTALS!! This is the needless symmetry fallacy ("all divine characters are good against undead")... I mean, we already have the Cleric being good against undead.
Rebuke Elementals wouldn't nearly be as useful. Also since Invokers are fighters against cosmic entropy, against all foes who oppose the gods, it would properly be Rebuke Aberrations/Elementas/Demons/Undead.
Angel of Fire seems like it is a Flaming Sphere that uses up your Standard, Immediate and either Move or Minor actions...hurray that... unless Summoning breaks the pattern set by Conjurations and Wonderous Statues (which seems unlikely).
Except that the flaming sphere doesn't fly, make opportunity attacks, or attack everyone adjacent to it when it attacks. :P
Hey its a wizard with a divine powersource *yawn*
Sorry these guys are going to feel a lot like wizards at low levels, which is a sad thing, as the Druid showed that WotC could produce a Controller that wasn't a blaster.
Angel of Fire seems like it is a Flaming Sphere that uses up your Standard, Immediate and either Move or Minor actions...hurray that... unless Summoning breaks the pattern set by Conjurations and Wonderous Statues (which seems unlikely).
Not that impressed by this class mechanically, though I like the flavour concept.
Yes its a cool concept, but we need to stop treating Controller as another word for Blaster. The classes work far better at controlling the battlefield when they do things other than just damage a bunch of creatures.
I think you make a valid comparison to the wizard--even flavor-wise I got a bit of Chosen and White Robes vibe--but your criticism seems a bit heavy handed. If this is only the third Controller we've had, and two of the three are only previews, we and/or the devs have hardly been "treating Controller as another word for Blaster" for any significant amount of time. I am, however, hoping for a good selection of abjuration and wall-type control effects from the invoker, so I'm not completely disagreeing with your call to action!
Uh-oh... I think I found a flaw they could have thought about...
I don't have a DDI subscription yet, but correct me if I'm wrong, this Invoker's flavor is wielding divine power against the primordials... So why Rebuke Undead?? It should have been REBUKE ELEMENTALS!! This is the needless symmetry fallacy ("all divine characters are good against undead")... I mean, we already have the Cleric being good against undead.
Hmmmm....interesting point on the needless divine symmetry, but paladins don't turn undead so I don't see it as quite "forced" yet. Might not have been bad to leave clerics as the ones with undead stuff, though.
As for why undead.......the Open Grave preview links undead to primordials (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20081215). Now that seems a touch forced.
Except that the flaming sphere doesn't fly, make opportunity attacks, or attack everyone adjacent to it when it attacks. :P
And the specifics of the summoning keyword have yet to be revealed
Rebuke Elementals wouldn't nearly be as useful. Also since Invokers are fighters against cosmic entropy, against all foes who oppose the gods, it would properly be Rebuke Aberrations/Elementas/Demons/Undead.
Well the "converting your character article had something similar for archivists. And it didn't have to do with undead at all. I think that this power shouldn't be geared towards undead either. And just for the record, I believe most demons have the elemental keyword.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/20080829a
As for why undead.......the Open Grave preview links undead to primordials (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20081215). Now that seems a touch forced.
Feel free to point out a quote to me, (I'll admit, I'm not always the most careful reader), but I didn't think that article really tied Undead to Primordials at all; wasn't it just explaining how Primordials created the world, and that it's not clear where Undead and Souls really originate from, just that they've been around since the beginning?
Feel free to point out a quote to me, (I'll admit, I'm not always the most careful reader), but I didn't think that article really tied Undead to Primordials at all; wasn't it just explaining how Primordials created the world, and that it's not clear where Undead and Souls really originate from, just that they've been around since the beginning?
Whoa I hadn't read it yet. Good point even if not necessarily related to the Rebuke thing.
Hey its a wizard with a divine powersource *yawn*
I second this notion. I was impressed by a few powers, but the class as a whole is unimpressive.
I noticed the Wall of Light (utility 2) wasn't a zone and was curious about that.
I was too, until someone mentioned that Conjuration was in the PHB. I looked it up, and it's basically a zone that also blocks squares against your enemies (but not your allies). So that makes sense (I was afraid that they had forgotten one keyword and replaced it with another. I need to have more faith :p).
Indeed, Clerics have an at-will Utility 6 conjuration, Holy Lantern. Has anyone noticed that a cleric with that power can create a movable one-square wall that (only effects enemies) whenever they want? That seems pretty handy to me...
Feel free to point out a quote to me, (I'll admit, I'm not always the most careful reader), but I didn't think that article really tied Undead to Primordials at all; wasn't it just explaining how Primordials created the world, and that it's not clear where Undead and Souls really originate from, just that they've been around since the beginning?
"In these earliest days, souls shorn of their bodies simply departed the cosmos, taken to a place beyond all reckoning. When the primordials first crafted the world, they had little regard for the fate of souls. But some among them recognized soul power as a potent force, and they hungered for it. These entities stopped up the passage of souls. With nowhere to go, many souls were either consumed by primordials that had a taste for such spiritual fare, or, finding no further road or final purpose, sputtered out and dissipated, gone forever. Others persisted, becoming undead." (emphasis added)
How about that part...Agree/Disagree? The greedy primordials screwed things up by mucking with the passage of souls, and some of those souls went bad and became undead. Now that the gods are in control, the undead problem is in their hands. That's how I read it my first time through.
"In these earliest days, souls shorn of their bodies simply departed the cosmos, taken to a place beyond all reckoning. When the primordials first crafted the world, they had little regard for the fate of souls. But some among them recognized soul power as a potent force, and they hungered for it. These entities stopped up the passage of souls. With nowhere to go, many souls were either consumed by primordials that had a taste for such spiritual fare, or, finding no further road or final purpose, sputtered out and dissipated, gone forever. Others persisted, becoming undead." (emphasis added)
How about that part...Agree/Disagree? The greedy primordials screwed things up by mucking with the passage of souls, and some of those souls went bad and became undead. Now that the gods are in control, the undead problem is in their hands. That's how I read it my first time through.
It seems to me that the Primordials had and may only have the role of "messing" with the souls. Adding entropy to the system. Undead are a by-product of the mess from what they tell us here, not a direct creation. Of course, though, the mere existence of Orcus tells us that elemental beings may have MUCH to do with undead, that for sure.
You know, they'll never put things in a crystal clear univocal manner, and maybe it's better, because these tricky enigmas about the truths of the whole cosmos, are exactly what they want us to define in our own personal way to add a unique feeling to the campaign.
I'm going a bit too far maybe, but I think that with 4e they added what can be called "meta-flavor" or "meta-setting": something in between our sheer immagination and unique views of things, and the resulting world. In fact, as of today, playing FR or in a near future Eberron with 4e, always means having these three layers: the setting itself with all the tangible material details; our personal unique views, plots and ideas; and in between this "meta-setting" proper of 4e, that partially shapes both the tangible setting (look at all the adaptions that FR needed), and our same unique twists, because instead of creating unique plots from the ground up, we now know that there's the guideline of Primordials VS Deities, Feywild | World | Shadowfell, the Far Realm which can influence things anytime anywhere, and everything. We had those things before, but they were provided without any guidelines, they were only bricks we could use, color, and put together the way we wanted. Now the construction is easier because the bricks are no more, they give us complete prefabricated buildings. But restraining as it may sound, this is still good and useful IMHO (and "IT[H]O") because what matters the most is what you do with the buildings, not how you do them. There's less hard work, more creative thinking. The 4e philosophy. Of course there's less flexibility, but they managed to balance everything in the good way and they know it, and we are starting to know and enjoy too.
Sorry for the monologue, I felt it was partially related to the matter, you'll judge.
it has to do with the summoning keyword I'm sure.
basically the power is unusable until we know what that keyword does. It will dictate weather the thing has defenses or not, how long it persists, how it takes commands. A summoning will be a little like a conjuration I expect.
On your predictions .....
warden = Primal leader
Shaman= Primal leader
Avenger = Divine Defender
Invoker = Divine Controller
Mine are .....
Warden = Primal Defender
Shaman = Primal Leader
Avenger = Divine Striker
Invoker = Divine Controller
That gives us 1 each of Divine Controller, Defender, Leader and Striker. 1 Each of Primal Controller, Defender, Leader and Striker.
I was too, until someone mentioned that Conjuration was in the PHB. I looked it up, and it's basically a zone that also blocks squares against your enemies (but not your allies). So that makes sense (I was afraid that they had forgotten one keyword and replaced it with another. I need to have more faith :p).
Indeed, Clerics have an at-will Utility 6 conjuration, Holy Lantern. Has anyone noticed that a cleric with that power can create a movable one-square wall that (only effects enemies) whenever they want? That seems pretty handy to me...
Read over the errata. They've made quite a few changes to how conjurations work. They no longer occupy squares or prevent movement unless the power states they do.
Anybody else interested in the fact that you HAVE (technically, you can just ignore it but still) to be the same alignment as your god?
Makes sense to me, given the divine covenant and your close relationship to the god that granted you a small bit of their power. And anyway, Paladins are the same way. Clerics are also restricted. Seems to be a fair and consistent feature of divine classes.
Invokers don't get that option.
Last I checked, paladins and clerics had to be the same alignment, OR unaligned. (unless the diety is unaligned, in which case you have a free ride)
Invokers don't get that option.
Paladins have to be the same alignment.
Clerics have to be the same alignment or unaligned, unless their deity is unaligned then they are free to choose whichever they wish.
Anybody else interested in the fact that you HAVE (technically, you can just ignore it but still) to be the same alignment as your god?
Meh, I HRed alignment out of my game. You'll note that the paladin has the same restriction, though.
I think you make a valid comparison to the wizard--even flavor-wise I got a bit of Chosen and White Robes vibe--but your criticism seems a bit heavy handed. If this is only the third Controller we've had, and two of the three are only previews, we and/or the devs have hardly been "treating Controller as another word for Blaster" for any significant amount of time. I am, however, hoping for a good selection of abjuration and wall-type control effects from the invoker, so I'm not completely disagreeing with your call to action!
You might as well get on board: Source: EnWorld
When comparing at-wills for controllers, the wizard has some issues. His at-wills focus more on damage than control. The consensus is that controllers need a little more, well, control in their at-wills than we've handed out so far.
Vanguard's lightning is what I'd see as a baseline controller at-will, with scorching burst slightly *below* baseline. That little extra bit on vanguard's lightning is precisely the kind of thing that makes controllers go - they limit/mess up the enemy's plans.
Now, this may seem pretty annoying - WotC released stuff that was too weak! However, I think it's actually a strength of the meta systems of 4e. We've never before had the ability to so clearly compare classes/roles and, when necessary, make adjustments. It's a lot easier to listen to feedback, gather hard data, and make comparisons between powers when we have a unified power scale.
The interesting thing is that this issue really only rests in the at-wills. Encounter and daily powers are fine for the wizard.
The controller role is perhaps the one that took the longest to really develop. There's a reason why there's only one in the PH. For a long while, the role was defined by its ability to attack multiple foes. That definition never sat well, since it clearly steps on other roles and archetypes. We'd never want to prevent rangers from firing multiple arrows, or a fighter from striking everyone adjacent to him.
Over time, the controller definition morphed into the opposite of the leader. If the leader sets up his allies and encourages teamwork, the controller screws up his enemies and hinders their ability to work together. The area damage aspect of the controller does play into that (it makes bunching up a bad idea) but in practice controllers need a little more to embrace their role.
It's a subtle point, and in the grand scheme of things I don't think a PH 1 wizard is crippled compared to the PH 2 classes, but it is a sign of the subtle adjustments we're likely to make to the game going forward.
(Yes my prior post was heavy handed, I wasn't feeling to touchy feely about it.)
Meh, I HRed alignment out of my game. You'll note that the paladin has the same restriction, though.
It's worth noting that we're still moving forward here. After all, just one short year ago, Paladins really only had one alignment choice at all, no matter who they worshiped.
Now, when we get to 4E Eberron, I think we can expect to see divinity-/faith-based alignment restrictions disappear for that setting, as we did in 3.5E Eberron. The Invoker fluff seems to indicate that other Divine classes rely more upon the power of faith, while the Invoker commands a tiny fragment of divine power directly. In a setting like Eberron, where the gods are entirely a matter of faith, raw divine power isn't really appropriate, and therefore neither is an alignment restriction which uses divinity as its basis.
For a while, I was using a power that summoned an angelic avenger to my aid, which probably had the highest damage output of any of my dailies if I sustained the power long enough.
A-ha! It is a sustained power after all. This probably reaches into the number of actions that the summoner has... I wonder if action points can also be used to grant the creature extra attacks. Still no mention of AC or HP, though--makes me think that the creature is just there as a semi-continuous damage source.
It's worth noting that we're still moving forward here. After all, just one short year ago, Paladins really only had one alignment choice at all, no matter who they worshiped.
Now, when we get to 4E Eberron, I think we can expect to see divinity-/faith-based alignment restrictions disappear for that setting, as we did in 3.5E Eberron. The Invoker fluff seems to indicate that other Divine classes rely more upon the power of faith, while the Invoker commands a tiny fragment of divine power directly. In a setting like Eberron, where the gods are entirely a matter of faith, raw divine power isn't really appropriate, and therefore neither is an alignment restriction which uses divinity as its basis.
I don't disagree on the paladin; I was just pointing out that there's a PH1 precedent for the Invoker's alignment restriction. And for the record, the reason I don't like D&D's alignment system has nothing to do with specific classes having alignment restrictions. I just find that alignment functions as a straitjacket to RP rather than facilitating it. Real-world morality doesn't fall into 5 or 9 easily-definable categories; I'm more interested in having my players come up with a convincing personality for their character than in having them ask me whether a specific action fits within their alignment. That's the last I'll say on the subject in this thread, however, as I don't want to derail it into a debate on the pros and cons of alignment.
A-ha! It is a sustained power after all. This probably reaches into the number of actions that the summoner has... I wonder if action points can also be used to grant the creature extra attacks. Still no mention of AC or HP, though--makes me think that the creature is just there as a semi-continuous damage source.
I wonder if [sustain minor] is part of the rules connected to the summoning keyword. If so I would imagine that the action of sustaining the summoning allows you to move it as well, or possibly make an attack. Precedent from other mechanics leads me to think that the summoner will need to use a minor action to command the summoning to take an action of any type, and that the summoning will be limited to a maximum of one standard, one move and one minor action per round. The potential damage of the daily in question, however, suggests that the summoner must spend a standard action to have the summoning attack.