My guesses are that the Avenger will be the divine striker, its extra damage ability will be entitled "Divine Vengeance" or something similar, he'll focus on 2h weapons, and one of his Channel Divinity powers will allow him to add a bit of extra damage.
The Invoker, I have fewer ideas for. It'll probably have more summoning than the cleric (judging from the name), plenty of Old Testament-style zones and AoEs, and maybe use of staves (see Holy Healer's weapon, AV).
Both will get Channel Divinity and some healing abilities.
I bet they both dabble iin leader quality\ies
Avenger- A zealot who utilizes the dogma of the gods to smite infidels with a weapon (bonus damage). How he moves around the battlefield well is beyond me. To be balanced, should not use heavy armor, but I kinda see a rogue when I think of this class in light armor and high dex. Should posses some healing ability.
Invoker- One in high favor of the gods who calls upon miracles to happen. Cloth armor I would presume, but I could see leather and chain being available as well. As for implements, holy symbol obviously, and I would like to see the staff be available, even though it is an arcane implement. Powers with names and flavor like "Ravaging Swarm" and "Divine Providence" should be his jurisdiction. Should posess some healing ability. Should be the Divine version of the wizard not only in terms of AoE's, but also in terms of general utility; just as a Wizard can use magic to do many various things, so should the Invoker.
To be balanced, should not use heavy armor, but I kinda see a rogue when I think of this class in light armor and high dex.
Actually, this could be the heavily armored striker. I could see Avengers being proficient in mail and relying on strength/charisma with wisdom for secondary effects, a bit like a paladin. This would likely be the striker for the dwarves in my campaign, since they get to live in a theocracy (speaking of race, what do you think would be effective for these classes? My money is for dwarf, deva, elf
, and, obviously, human).Avenger- A zealot who utilizes the dogma of the gods to smite infidels with a weapon (bonus damage). How he moves around the battlefield well is beyond me. To be balanced, should not use heavy armor, but I kinda see a rogue when I think of this class in light armor and high dex. Should posses some healing ability.
why no heavy armor? I could see a chain mail striker...maybe even a scale striker...infact it could be a striker variant off of paliden...more moble more damage, no mark...
Avenger- A zealot who utilizes the dogma of the gods to smite infidels with a weapon (bonus damage). How he moves around the battlefield well is beyond me. To be balanced, should not use heavy armor, but I kinda see a rogue when I think of this class in light armor and high dex. Should posses some healing ability.
Invoker- One in high favor of the gods who calls upon miracles to happen. Cloth armor I would presume, but I could see leather and chain being available as well. As for implements, holy symbol obviously, and I would like to see the staff be available, even though it is an arcane implement. Powers with names and flavor like "Ravaging Swarm" and "Divine Providence" should be his jurisdiction. Should posess some healing ability. Should be the Divine version of the wizard not only in terms of AoE's, but also in terms of general utility; just as a Wizard can use magic to do many various things, so should the Invoker.
The Divine Controller class (Invoker) will probably be partially inspired by classes like the Cloistered Cleric or Archivist from 3E. In short, he's more of the robed, sagely priest rather than the armored crusader Cleric. Implements will probably include holy symbols, staves, and something else (daggers? scepters?). Spells will likely include plagues and divine smiting of enemies, as well as summoning servants of their deities.
Perhaps the class will include some darker-flavored powers, to cover the demon-summoning cultist as well as the divine prophet of vengeance. A possible guess for builds is a smiting invoker (WIS/INT or WIS/CON) and a summoning invoker (WIS/CHA).
The Divine Striker (Avenger) is a bit harder to imagine, but may be a sort of divinely-appointed hunter that strikes down enemies of his faith. His Striker damage boost may increase when fighting undead, devils, or demons. (Some of his channel divinity feats may give him boosted vengeance damage against other enemies of his god, like chromatic dragons for a Bahamut-worshipper).
Wait, why didn't the quote work?
You didn't close the brackets.
Averger: I see them getting chain, martial melee weapons, and they gank the smite ability from the paladin. Probably less damage than strikers now but with AC and DEF (even to hit) penalties added on the smite mechanic.
I don't think either of them should get healing abilities, I don't really want to see every divine class get shoehorned into being the healing guys, if I am playing the Avenger (striker) and I chose it because I want to lay on damage, not because I want to watch my allies hp and off-heal.
I think that if you need a healing type effect on the divine power source as a whole I would rather see the Avenger at least not heal damage but maybe grant saves with (or without) a bonus. Something other than just making divine classes all healing batteries, lets leave the healing to the leaders.
You might argue that the Paladin has healing powers too but it is pretty clear that he has his minor in leader, I want to see some diversity on these classes.
Since the Primal we've seen seems to love at-will temp HP, a definate splash into Defender, I find it easy enough to expect the trend to continue.
The Invoker as well may be similar in basic build to a Devoted Cleric with perhaps less armor, and a spell selection that in flavor seems similar to a Lazor Cleric, but in gameplay is similar to a Wizard.
We shall see.
Avenger: I am envisioning a Sword and Board striker. Someone who is out for vengence, divinely smitin their way through the battlefield. I would love them to be kind of a glass cannon: High defenses, terrible hitpoints. Also, I would love to see their extra damage come through the route of a Favored Weapon. When they deal damage in a round with their weapon, they get their Vengeful Strike damage off, or whatever. Make them have two builds, Con based and Wis based, with Int being their third stat. You are on a mission from God, and drive on through perseverance, either in themselves, or in their Deities.
My two cents.
A judgment would be a standard-action attack where the avenger calls down the wrath of its god against a foe. Kinda like turning. This would be a Will attack that weakens a target, rendering it vulnerable to being heavily damaged by the avenger's strikes.
As for invokers, I think the 'invoke' part is going to be taken seriously, and that we'll see plenty of conjurations and summoned forces. There may even be an option for an invoker to create its own avatar, and use it as a companion in battles.
Assuming there is an Avenger class, it is Divine, and it is a Striker, maybe it has extra damage dice that key off of damage being dealt to itself or allies. Since this occurs a lot, I'd guess +1d6. And maybe some variations on something like:
Wis vs Will, Immediate Reaction, Trigger: You or an ally within 5 squares is dealt damage, Hit: Deal damage to the enemy equal to the damage it dealt with the triggering attack. This damage ignores resistance.
I wrote that in the PHB2 confirmation thread. I really think the retribution flavor suggested by the class name could play well, I would put extra damage at +1d6 if it triggers off of any ally taking damage in an area (5 or 10 squares) and applies to any attack the Avenger makes, and maybe higher (1d8?) if it is only useful against the same enemy who damaged an ally and in a smaller radius.
As for the striker mobility aspect of Avengers, I could easily see something that lets them shift or move towards allies that take damage. An immediate reaction encounter power that lets you charge without OAs when an ally in range takes damage, for example, could work at level 3 or so.
Invokers are a little tough, but I imagine between Invokers, Druids and Shamans we will see more conjuration and zone effects. Maybe their at-wills or class features create an aura like effect and they can be sustained. "Invoker" doesn't suggest to me that they will be summoning anything, I would leave that to the Shaman. Damaging walls and area burst attacks are also expected. Radiant, fire, force, and thunder damage seem most likely, maybe Divine Power will give us some customized options like lightning damage attacks for Kord Invokers and necrotic for Vecna or whatever, but I don't expect that level of detail from the PHB2.
The Divine Striker (Avenger) is a bit harder to imagine, but may be a sort of divinely-appointed hunter that strikes down enemies of his faith. His Striker damage boost may increase when fighting undead, devils, or demons. (Some of his channel divinity feats may give him boosted vengeance damage against other enemies of his god, like chromatic dragons for a Bahamut-worshipper).
This helped it finally click in my mind what Avenger could reasonably be. By reasonably, this is what I mean:
D&D classes all have some sort of fantasy archetype that is fairly universal. In addition, most of them have an archetype that is D&D traditional. Each version of the game adds a couple more, but the only ones that tend to get added (and definitely the ones that stick) are ones that follow a fantasy archetype. Take Sorcerer. It fit archetypes well and was significantly different than wizard in that department. Warlock, same thing. Favored Soul...not so much--hence it's lesser popularity. With 4E being a bit more likely to incorporate more of the contemporary evolution in fantasy archetypes that we see in MMOs and anime, we may see a bit of stretching, but I don't think it will be much (and it shouldn't be) otherwise it's D&Dness get's diluted too much for the flavor of 4E.
New 4E classes, to be successful (and it looks like the developers are putting a good effort into it) are going to fit fantasy archetypes well. Yes, that means you are unlikely to see your favorite "Holy Undead-Smiting Backstabbing Perpetual-Twilight Shifting-Doomslayer Ardent Scholar-Lord of Ao" obscure prestige class show up as a base class in 4E. And that is a very good thing.
The only two classes that don't seem to hit a strong fantasy archetype so far are the Warden and the Avenger (assuming the Invoker is the holy miracle worker we all think he probably is). If warden is essentially half of the druid (the shapeshifting half, for instance) I can see it potentially working.
Avenger (assuming divine striker), however, hasn't seemed to fit for me. It can't just be Paladin-striker. That's not a new archetype, that's a variant class. It can't reasonably be a striker version of the assumed Invoker-controller either. I'm going to guess what I think it is.
I'm thinking the basic theme will be the theme of the dedicated demon-hunter *type* of character. Also think vampire-hunters, etc. Imagine these folks from the movies. Generally I'm referring to the kind of demon/vampire/etc hunter without any inherent special powers, although the class will get some of course. The kind of character who probably isn't heavily armored, and who tries not to get into a stand up fight, but who uses things like crosses, holy water, stakes, special weapons, etc, to set up favorably conditions to *kill* those monsters as quickly as possible. He can't just wade into melee with them, but he catches them off-guard and uses something that burns them bad.
Now, assuming that I'm right, what I wonder is how well they are going to bring that into D&D. With the divine power source, all powers will be magical in some way, although a simple prayer before stabbing at something may work for at-will attacks. My best guess is that they are going to have to go with quite a bit more flash than the archetype would normally possess. What I sincerely hope is that it keeps the essence of the archetype. It should make one think "demon-hunter" or "vampire-slayer" rather than "holy magic blaster".
Well, that's my 2 cents on it. They seem to be doing a good job with the classes so far, and hope they will keep it up with the new "mystery" classes for PHBII.
Evil party of Shar, could be all from Nethril (mix of Shadar-kai and human)
Good party of Torm (humans and Dragonborn probably) Chessenta/Tymanther
Unaligned Undead hunters of Kelemvor (all races)
I love the rolls will be hashed out.
Invokers I see as cloth armor, maybe leather but unlikely. They will focus on control spells and blasts like the wizard. While the avenger gets up close and personal to smite his god's foes the invoker calls down the wrath of their god on their enemies from a distance.
You didn't close the brackets.
Thanks.
The Aura of Despair and Command Undead features could easily be adapted into a Channel Divine feature, with some re-flavouring, and the Sneak Attack striker feature could be given a more vengeful smite feel. I suspect the Avenger will also have access to Lay on Hands.
As for the Avenger, having a Holy Retribution sort of ability, where he deals extra damage to enemies who have dealt damage to allies, would be VERY nice, but might set him up to be a Defender... As for Chain armor proficiency and lower-than-striker-HP, I could dig that too.
Here's to hoping for some crossbow loving from him, too. If ever there was a class to use a crossbow, this would be it.
I am definitely digging this Van Helsing image for the Avenger.
Seconded. The only questions he'll ever have will be "What am I dealing with, and how do I kill it?":D
Now that I think about it a all divine party worshiping the same diety sounds like RP fun.
Evil party of Shar, could be all from Nethril (mix of Shadar-kai and human)
Good party of Torm (humans and Dragonborn probably) Chessenta/Tymanther
Unaligned Undead hunters of Kelemvor (all races)
I love the rolls will be hashed out.
no imagin the Rp of a group of 5 divine power characters all whoshiping DIFFRENT gods...the argueing is fun.
no imagin the Rp of a group of 5 divine power characters all whoshiping DIFFRENT gods...the argueing is fun.
ESP in Eberron, where gods don't matter anyway!
Anyway, I'm starting to dig the Van Helsing "hunter of what lurks in the dark" sort of character.
no imagin the Rp of a group of 5 divine power characters all whoshiping DIFFRENT gods...the argueing is fun.
Right a paladin of Torm, an avenger of Selune, an invoker of Amaunator and a cleric of Corellon
We'll have invoker playtest next month, Dec 15th.
Echt? (Translation: Really?)
Invokers AND Druids in one month!! Wow!! December is going to be awesome!
Especially looking forward to the invoker......right now clerics are so lackluster compared to all the other classes. If you pick a Devoted cleric, there are only 2 powers per level to choose from....same with a STR cleric.
I really wish there was a Class Acts for clerics as out of all the classes, they have had the least love.
Aside from the names, and the playtest on the horizon, where are people getting their information about the new classes? Did I miss an editorial somewhere?
the Warden was mentioned as a favored class of the Minotaur in the Dragon article with the full PC-write up for minotaurs.
A WotC staff's pics of his character sheet to show off the Character builder listed a couple of his travelling companions as a Deva Invoker and a Deva Avenger.
Also apparently the new 2009 catalog sent out to retailers lists Arcane Power as covering: Cleric, Paladin, Invoker, and Avenger.
Also now with the Dec. Editorial Calendar up we see 4 playtests for December:
Druid
Invoker
Mercykiller
Adventurer's Vault 2
Also apparently the new 2009 catalog sent out to retailers lists Arcane Power as covering: Cleric, Paladin, Invoker, and Avenger.
You mean Divine, right? (Emphasis mine)
, Primal and Divine."Playtest: Mercykillers"??? Is that a new class??
There's a lot of speculation on what they mean by Mercykillers, but Mercykillers are one of the factions in Planescape. So it might be that faction, but whether it's a class (or a multiclass only class), a new mechanic for organizations, or something else isn't known.
There's a lot of speculation on what they mean by Mercykillers, but Mercykillers are one of the factions in Planescape. So it might be that faction, but whether it's a class (or a multiclass only class), a new mechanic for organizations, or something else isn't known.
Thanks KoboldAvenger for the info!
I am not sure if this is anything but crazy, but it atleast some food for thought...
Imagin and Avenger set up as a hybrid Swordmage/Paliden the control aspect of the Swordmage, and the leader qualities of paliden...maybe a holy burst like sword burst, and a channel divinity that pushes or slides targest...
Imagin an Invoker who channels Kords Str, or Pelors Brilliance into melee strikes as there "extra damage", and Daily powers that "invokes" angle like powers.
I think we're going to see divine having two leaders (like martial having two strikers, and arcane having two controllers) and either striker or controller will be blank.
One of them has to be a striker. The other could possibly be a leader, but there is no good reason for it.
I think we're going to see divine having two leaders and either striker or controller will be blank.
Actually both will probably be filled in the PHB II: Invoker (controller) and Avenger (striker)
I think we're going to see divine having two leaders (like martial having two strikers, and arcane having two controllers) and either striker or controller will be blank.
I doubt this, reeks of the forced symmetry they are explicitly avoiding.
I doubt this, reeks of the forced symmetry they are explicitly avoiding.
Yes, even more so than filling all roles for each power source.
Haha, get it?
It's a joke.
Captain America?
Eh?
I hate my life.
I doubt this, reeks of the forced symmetry they are explicitly avoiding.
EDIT: Misread the context of this quote, sorry!
Show
Yes, they're avoiding forced symmetry, but neither divine strikers nor divine controllers are forced. They are naturally emergent from the power source's fluff: delivering a deity's vengeance up close and personal, and bringing down the wrath of the heavens on the hordes.
And if you can shape all four roles with evocative fluff and distinctive powers without bending over backwards to do so (martial controller, I'm looking at you!) then why not?
Notice, for example, that the arcane power source filled out all the roles before doubling up (wizard as controller and warlock as striker in PHB, then artificer as leader in Dragon, then swordmage as defender in FRPG).
And if you can shape all four roles with evocative fluff and distinctive powers without bending over backwards to do so (martial controller, I'm looking at you!) then why not?
Notice, for example, that the arcane power source filled out all the roles before doubling up (wizard as controller and warlock as striker in PHB, then artificer as leader in Dragon, then swordmage as defender in FRPG).
Before we learned the mystery classes (Invoker, Avenger) there was a "T" in the PHB2 class list, which I figured represented the Theurge.
Therefore, I submit the Theurge has been re-branded 'Invoker' and you can preview some Theur...er, Invoker powers by flipping through H2 and seeing what other Divine Controllers can do...
And I'm hoping the Avenger is a divine striker.
He was actually arguing against the post that suggested that there would be two Divine Leaders before anything else. I think that poster is in agreeance with having a divine class of every role if it works without force.
Huh, you're right...must have rearranged some posts/words in my mind!
I bet the Avenger is a WW2 Nazi fighter who specializes in throwing shields.
Haha, get it?
It's a joke.
Captain America?
Eh?
I hate my life.
or he could be encased in crimson and gold armor, or wields a returning warhammer, or dresses in purple shooting shock arrows, or he could shrink to the size of an ant and controls insects, or he could be a green and red android, or............................
You mean Divine, right? (Emphasis mine)
Yeah, my bad, think it was near the end of the day and I was rushing to get the response in before catching a bus lol.
I'm going to guess that the invoker will use a summoning build with WIS/CHA as the main stats, and a smiting build with WIS/INT. It will probably be limited to cloth armor and use staffs and holy symbols as implements.
Based off this new information, I'm going to guess the Avenger is a striker. Some of the previews we've heard so far indicate that the barbarian won't be the only striker class.
For a moment I had thought the Avenger could have been a Primal Striker. After all we only have Barbarian who is a melee striker so we could have a ranged striker like we have Rogue and Ranger. Plus, "Avenger" was a Druid kit back in 2e days (I remember you could also play it in Baldur's Gate 2). It was a magic-heavy Druid with access to things such as Chain Lightning and other damaging spells.
However, having seen the Druid already has some elemental damaging spells, my bet is now Divine Striker as everyone else. BUT... I don't like it. They better come out with something really good and unique, I don't want to see one of the most common and worst errors of class designing coming from WotC: making classes for character types that other previous classes could already well describe.
However, having seen the Druid already has some elemental damaging spells, my bet is now Divine Striker as everyone else. BUT... I don't like it. They better come out with something really good and unique, I don't want to see one of the most common and worst errors of class designing coming from WotC: making classes for character types that other previous classes could already well describe.
I agree with you in general, but I do think that 4e design philosophy is curing most of that problem. Say what you will about power sources, but they have effectively segregated character types into specific classes.
My guess is that there will be some superficial rogue similarities, but that they will be overwhelmed by differences. I predict heavy armor (chain, specifically), a lot of explicitly magical effects, and a new and unique system for boosting damage into the Striker range.
But my worry is that I don't have an image of a divine striker in my mind that doesn't overlap with Paladin and Rogue. I can see a divine assassin, I can see a Smiting warrior. Maybe there could be a smiting caster ... but that's already relatively covered by the cleric as is.
So yeah, I'm currious and worried about the Avenger.
I still find a bit too much of overlap with rogues and paladins, but at least I think they will be unique in flavor. I hope. Many kids will love them, this I'm sure about: can't you picture all the love they have for dark goth assassins calling themselves "dark angels" and sporting big black raven wings and impossibly big blades? :D
Well, Van Helsing, dark angel, demon/witch hunter....they're all pretty close. I was trying to think which two fit under which broader one (which is a completely unnecessary thought exercise, btw). Slayer might be an even more catch-all concept name than any of those. In the end, I think because of bada$$ery heroics Van Helsing wins out. Just MHO at the moment.
Yeah, I'm thinking the best 'niche' for a Divine Striker (which the Avenger might be) is the monster slayer. His 'extra damage' ability might have extra effect against 'creatures of darkness' like undead, devils, and demons (maybe dealing 2d6 instead of 1d6 damage). In any case, it would be broader in scope than the 3rd edition ranger's favored enemy skill, so it would have less problems with being effective when outside this bubble.
There might also be paragon paths like 'Undead Slayer' that give the avenger a 'turn undead'-like ability and/or extra damage with radiant damage powers.
Alternatively, the 'extra-damage' feature on the avenger might trigger when his allies are damaged by the enemy in question, though this seems more like a defender-type ability.
I can think of two archetypes.
1. The monster hunter. This guy has a trench coat, a crossbow, and a sword, and abilities that help him use divine power to defend himself and punish his foes.
2. The holy assassin. Think of the guy from Assassin's Creed, except in chainmail. I think this is more likely- it has some precedent from 3e, and the monster hunter doesn't feel like it necessarily even has to be divine.
I think its very unlikely that the divine striker will receive some kind of blanket "do bonus damage against enemies of Type X" ability. I think those are pretty disfavored in 4e. I think its more likely that he'll just have some abilities that involve radiant damage. That gets you half the way there, without being annoyingly situational.
I can think of two archetypes.
1. The monster hunter. This guy has a trench coat, a crossbow, and a sword, and abilities that help him use divine power to defend himself and punish his foes.
2. The holy assassin. Think of the guy from Assassin's Creed, except in chainmail. I think this is more likely- it has some precedent from 3e, and the monster hunter doesn't feel like it necessarily even has to be divine.
I agree with Cadfan second idea. The Avenger should be the Holy Assassin, the one who kill really evil people in the name of the Church. They can give him an ability to be able to be stealthy in heavy armor like a 3.5 prestige that I cannot recall its name.
I think on Altair from Assassin's Creed when I think of this Avenger Class.
Whatever damage spike the hypothetical/forthcoming divine striker has, it needs to be distinguished from Hunter's Quarry, Warlock's Curse, and Sneak Attack, as well as the paladin's smite powers. Maybe some sort of fearsome "Divine Wrath" or something.
or he could be encased in crimson and gold armor, or wields a returning warhammer, ................
Something like this?
However, I don't think anyone could've foreseen them ditching Holy Symbols for Rods though.
If the divine controller wears chain, the divine striker will definitely wear at least chain. I think that heavy armor is becoming a design characteristic of divine classes.
I think the Invoker preview all but guarantees that the Avenger will wear heavy armor.
If the divine controller wears chain, the divine striker will definitely wear at least chain. I think that heavy armor is becoming a design characteristic of divine classes.
I hope not, and I think not. At least if their avoidance of useless symmetry is true.
It would look rather stupid with chain, especially because it would mean that with two feats you would have a sneaky plate-clad man, which is ridiculous.
Don't get me wrong, I'm for the "everything is possible in fantasy" party, but it's ridiculous from a game-design perspective, because it would differentiate it even less from the paladin.
I personally think that a divine avenger could have way more means of raising his/her AC to even high levels.
In fact, it would actually be more fantastic if it did. With some kind of protective divine magic, maybe given by a permanent class feature, or by class specific feats.
A divine avenger would basically be an assassin who uses divine power to get the job done: giving it heavy armor makes it much more a martial character, since this sneaky+heavy combination is much more evocative of a physical training than of divine investiture.
HOWEVER... The very existence of this Avenger is a first (or among the first) sign(s) of forced symmetry in game design, so I too see as more probable a chain armor proficiency.
I wasn't so sure they would go as hardcore as a "divine assassin" concept until I saw the invoker preview. I still don't think the concept would be allowed to completely trump the flavor of troubleshooter and monster hunter; I think it'll be all of those things rolled into one. Van Helsing, Assassin's Creed, exorcist, Buffy, et al will be examples of the "dark loner with a mission" that is the Avenger.
Also, I think that sort of The Crow feeling will help distinguish the Avenger from the Rogue, for those who are worrying about this class forcing Divine power source symmetry.
I hope not, and I think not. At least if their avoidance of useless symmetry is true.
It would look rather stupid with chain, especially because it would mean that with two feats you would have a sneaky plate-clad man, which is ridiculous.
But the paladin can take Stealth as a new skill with only one feat.
And there's no guarantee the avenger is even sneaky. Its a striker, sure, but so's the barbarian. The barbarian isn't particularly sneaky.
HOWEVER... The very existence of this Avenger is a first (or among the first) sign(s) of forced symmetry in game design, so I too see as more probable a chain armor proficiency.
I don't think that's a conclusion you can draw until you actually see the class.
Mobility - Temporary Flight, often equal to Wis or Cha bonus. There is at least one paladin ability that does this.
Damage - Some sort of radiant smite. Maybe applied opposite of warlock curses - i.e. a minor bonus at first (say, -1 to AC) that has a greater effect when encounter or an at-will can expend it.
Gimmick - Daily powers that equate to damaging auras.
Just my guess.
But the paladin can take Stealth as a new skill with only one feat.
And there's no guarantee the avenger is even sneaky. Its a striker, sure, but so's the barbarian. The barbarian isn't particularly sneaky.
I don't think that's a conclusion you can draw until you actually see the class.
Yes, I know, I intended being sneaky as having better Stealth bonus than a paladin trained in Stealth, something like bonuses in powers and/or classes features to compensate the armor penalty.
I only said that even considering all the elements, I still think it's probable that they'll have chainmail, but speaking about these kinds of things and probability, of course nothing is in terms of conclusions...
A) Light armor only and both builds use either Dex or Int as a secondary stat (unlikely)
B) Light armor only and some incentive for non-Dex/Int secondary builds to stay that way
or
C) Chainmail proficiency
Who knows, maybe WotC will break the pattern and make the Avenger a primary Int class.
For all we know the Avenger is a ranged based striker like the Warlock and doesn't even have Stealth on its class skill list (though I could be wrong as I haven't been following all the speculation).
Who wants to bet that 29th level daily power of the Invoker includes the ability to summon either a god or an aspect of a god?
Could be interesting, but I don't think so, or at least not the "full" version. My bet is no. Winner gets a cookie?
If you have a religion that wants to send assassins after someone in secret, there is already a class for that--it's called rogue.
If you have a religion that wants to send some divinely empowered champions to take down a great evil, you already have classes for that--they are called paladins and clerics, and they'll probably come with a group of other adventurers. Most honorable good sorts of religions would frown on sending secret assassins anyway, and go this route instead.
If you want to give it a more explicitly dark spin--you don't need a new class for that role. I honestly don't see an evil religion sending an unholy-charged mortal assassin. I see them sending regular rogue-assassins, or undead, or devilish creatures.
As far as the idea of an angel-type person...I mean, as a *CLASS*? These are for mortal adventurers here. You don't learn to be an angel the way you learn to be a warrior, or even a wizard.
So I'm not at all looking forward to this class if it's a "holy assassin" or "mortal angel".
However, since Wizards has managed to pleasantly surprise me with the other PHB2 classes by sticking with D&D archetypes instead of MMO and Anime inspired themes, I'm still holding out hope for a Divine Striker that feels like D&D to me.
I'm guessing it will probably end up as the "holy assassin" type, but I *really* don't want it to. I don't like the concept at all.
If you have a religion that wants to send assassins after someone in secret, there is already a class for that--it's called rogue.
If you have a religion that wants to send some divinely empowered champions to take down a great evil, you already have classes for that--they are called paladins and clerics, and they'll probably come with a group of other adventurers. Most honorable good sorts of religions would frown on sending secret assassins anyway, and go this route instead.
If you want to give it a more explicitly dark spin--you don't need a new class for that role. I honestly don't see an evil religion sending an unholy-charged mortal assassin. I see them sending regular rogue-assassins, or undead, or devilish creatures.
As far as the idea of an angel-type person...I mean, as a *CLASS*? These are for mortal adventurers here. You don't learn to be an angel the way you learn to be a warrior, or even a wizard.
So I'm not at all looking forward to this class if it's a "holy assassin" or "mortal angel".
However, since Wizards has managed to pleasantly surprise me with the other PHB2 classes by sticking with D&D archetypes instead of MMO and Anime inspired themes, I'm still holding out hope for a Divine Striker that feels like D&D to me.
I agree in part. The whole "secret sect of assassins" thing in a good religion as well as the already quite handy presence of rogues.....those are reasons why I think "holy assassin" will probably be able to fit the class but will not be the actual core of the class.
On the angel thing, I thought the idea presented on this thread was metaphorical.....an "avenging angel" figure, not a literal "angel." More The Crow than an actual "Angel of Death" ranked in a divine hierarchy. Possibly like a superhero swooping in to save the day.
Someone mentioned the Avenger as possibly a Striker, secondary: Leader. That does sound kinda interesting.
Well, IMHO, Clerics get their power through their faith, Paladins choose to represent a certain aspects of their God (like honor for Bahamut's paladin), and Invokers seem to be chosen by Gods.
Maybe the Avenger is a hero that didn't feel any aspiration to become a Paladin or a Cleric, hasn't any particuliar affinity with Gods like Paladins, Clerics, and Invokers do, but a particuliar event in his life (family destroyed by undeads, or a wife that has been seduced by a devil, or one of his offspring turned necromancer etc.) made him look toward Gods, and then he decided to take a vow/pledge/oath to destroy what he thinks is evil. He'd certainly dedicate his whole life to this task, but without dedicating it to religion (unlike other Divine classes)
To resume, IMHO, Paladins choose to represent their God and defend an ideal ; Clerics choose to serve their faith and their God ; Invokers don't really choose anything ; and Avengers would choose to follow an divine oath.
So just a plain fighter only interested in dealing a lot of divine damage (aka Striker), and relying on his divine power source to help him in this task !
I'd love to see that kind of guy (kinda like repurgators in Mordheim/warhammer) !
From what I've read, and given the fact that class was supposed to be called "inquisitor",
That isn't a fact, it is only speculation.
I'm sorry for the mistake then !
Anyway, it would really set the Avenger apart from the Paladin and the Divine-Assassins (to me, it's more a paragon path - we already have one : Raven Queen Agent, from Martial Power)
I though the info about the first letter of the upcoming class was a fact more than speculation.
I'm sorry for the mistake then !
Anyway, it would really set the Avenger apart from the Paladin and the Divine-Assassins (to me, it's more a paragon path - we already have one : Raven Queen Agent, from Martial Power)
No the first letters were fact when they were given. However we already have a class that begins with an I(Invoker). The class letter that changed was a T. As such there is no evidence that says that the Avenger was ever called an Inquisitor.
No the first letters were fact when they were given. However we already have a class that begins with an I(Invoker). The class letter that changed was a T. As such there is no evidence that says that the Avenger was ever called an Inquisitor.
...that's interesting. Perhaps we shoud be trying to figure out what they renaned it FROM. Templar?
...that's interesting. Perhaps we shoud be trying to figure out what they renaned it FROM. Templar?
Yup, that was my guess.(before the Avenger info, of course)
or he could be encased in crimson and gold armor
Paladin in plate armor who's undergone Paragon multiclassing into Warlock, gaining Eldritch Blast as an At-Will Power.
or wields a returning warhammer
Fighter multi-classed into Wizard armed with a Thundergod Throwing Hammer.
or dresses in purple shooting shock arrows
Ranger with a multitude of different magic arrows.
or he could shrink to the size of an ant and controls insects
...Druid, maybe?
or he could be a green and red android, or............................
Warforged.
Heh, sorry, but this reminds me of a silly idea I had a while back for playing in a Palladium Fantasy campaign. Namely, I wanted to run a campaign which used Mutants & Masterminds rules and featured "The Society of Justice". Palladium Fantasy analogues of members of the Justice Society (with team members like the Hour Knight, the Green Knight, and the Star Knight, Garrick Swiftfoot, Lady Kateri Hawke, etc).
Incidentally, thanks to my nifty Throwing Shield, I am now the D&D version of Captain America. :D
From what I've read, and given the fact that it was speculated there would be a class named "inquisitor", I see the Avenger as a Divine Melee Warlock/Fighter : a melee striker that relies on debuffs and divine-powered "curses", and who gets his power by signing a "pact" with a divine entity (maybe more like a vow, a pledge, or an oath).
Well, IMHO, Clerics get their power through their faith, Paladins choose to represent a certain aspects of their God (like honor for Bahamut's paladin), and Invokers seem to be chosen by Gods.
Maybe the Avenger is a hero that didn't feel any aspiration to become a Paladin or a Cleric, hasn't any particuliar affinity with Gods like Paladins, Clerics, and Invokers do, but a particuliar event in his life (family destroyed by undeads, or a wife that has been seduced by a devil, or one of his offspring turned necromancer etc.) made him look toward Gods, and then he decided to take a vow/pledge/oath to destroy what he thinks is evil. He'd certainly dedicate his whole life to this task, but without dedicating it to religion (unlike other Divine classes)
To resume, IMHO, Paladins choose to represent their God and defend an ideal ; Clerics choose to serve their faith and their God ; Invokers don't really choose anything ; and Avengers would choose to follow an divine oath.
Cool! With all the ideas everyone is bringing up, each feeling (IMHO) like a different angle on the same core concept, I think we must be on to the right character archetype for the Avenger. Well, or else we are all going wrong in the same general direction. :P
Does anyone remember that elven oath bow thing?? The command phrase for the item was something like, "Swift defeat/death to my enemies" and an oath to slay a particular target and then you get like +4 attack or something. (Edit: I think I just remembered the command phrases..."Swift defeat to my enemies!" and "Swift death to those who have wronged me!") The above reminded me of that. Maybe the Avenger has a "Divine Oath" as his/her damage booster.
Incidentally, thanks to my nifty Throwing Shield, I am now the D&D version of Captain America. :D
Is there really a throwing shield in AV??
...that's interesting. Perhaps we shoud be trying to figure out what they renaned it FROM. Templar?
It's also possible that the original Divine Controller was called a Theurge, and the Invoker was the Divine Striker. However, maybe the name didn't fit the class as it evolved, and the name 'invoker' was instead given to the controller.
We'd have to see what the Avenger is like before we can figure things out, though.
I'm gonna laugh when the Avenger turns out to be a plate clad, medium speed, knight swinging an oversized greatsword.
If it really was going to be Templar, that's a distinct possibility.
If it really was going to be Templar, that's a distinct possibility.
Not only is it a distinct possibility it's a very reasonable possibility, and not terribly divergent from the archetypes brought up earlier in the thread. Hell, there's old DnD art that has Paladins swinging massive, impossible "animoo" swords.
The only reason I find it funny is because there's a lot of people in this thread who seem to be skirting around the possibility, if not outright dismissing it, while latching onto a VanHellsing knockoff, which doesn't really fit the trend of Divine classes to date, especially now that we know the Invoker is a medium/heavy armor class.
Stripping Oversized Weapons off Minotaurs would make sense if they have a class coming that uses Oversized weapons. Stacking them is obviously a no-go.
Favored Enemy: meh, it'd be bad to see it come back, same reasons as why it's good that SA is universally applicable: things swing heavily based on wether the right monsters are available or not.
Favored Weapon: might as well build in a flat damage bonus (oversized, or just higher at-wills al la Barbarian) since it's uncommon for any class to ever be using an unfavored weapon.
Not only is it a distinct possibility it's a very reasonable possibility, and not terribly divergent from the archetypes brought up earlier in the thread. Hell, there's old DnD art that has Paladins swinging massive, impossible "animoo" swords.
The only reason I find it funny is because there's a lot of people in this thread who seem to be skirting around the possibility, if not outright dismissing it, while latching onto a VanHellsing knockoff, which doesn't really fit the trend of Divine classes to date, especially now that we know the Invoker is a medium/heavy armor class.
Stripping Oversized Weapons off Minotaurs would make sense if they have a class coming that uses Oversized weapons. Stacking them is obviously a no-go.
Favored Enemy: meh, it'd be bad to see it come back, same reasons as why it's good that SA is universally applicable: things swing heavily based on wether the right monsters are available or not.
Favored Weapon: might as well build in a flat damage bonus (oversized, or just higher at-wills al la Barbarian) since it's uncommon for any class to ever be using an unfavored weapon.
I have two questions.
1) What do you mean when you say the Invoker is a "medium/heavy armor" class?? I'm not a combat master, but to my eyes chainmail is just one of three heavy armors, so it doesn't really seem to be at the forefront of the class's features. Even if it is, wouldn't applying heavy armor to all divine characters be just another form of symmetry?
2) The character idea above brings to (my) mind that 2e pic of the knight with the huge sword covered in blue lightning fighting the green dragon. Anyone remember that one?? That could be a cool character. The reason I personally don't feel enthusiastic about that concept for the Avenger so far is it seems too much like a generic "knight".....a paladin or fighter is just fine for being a dragon slayer with a greatsword. At the very least, a Van Helsing/Slayer/Man on a Mission/Oath-bound character seems more concrete. So I guess my question is, what type of character would this heavy armored Avenger really be??
A Templar was traditionally fairly equivalent to a paladin. Exactly what would differentiate it in D&D? It seems to me that it would be ridiculous to make such a class. The holy knight smiting down enemies is a paladin. It's right there in PHB1. Historically, the Knights Templar were dedicated to defending rather than being aggressive anyway, so any such class should make more sense as a defender than a striker.
I still find it baffling that there could even be such a class that is thematically different from a paladin. Wizards is not going to make classes that are mechanically different but thematically nearly the same. It isn't going to happen. Sorry if I'm coming off as overly critical of the speculation so far. I'm suffering from insomnia and just in the mood to speak my mind--no personal affront to anyone intended.
Now, as far as the likelihood of heavier armor proficiency...giving Invokers chainmail (boggle) makes that a very probable outcome.
He was playing an unreleased class.
It was a Striker.
It had high strength.
But not a lot of charisma.
His character was also an Eladrin who spent 50 years studying somewhere.
The studying suggests it isn't a barbarian. Avenger?
I've been thinking for a while that Divine would end up being the least distinct power source in terms of class-to-class distinction. Already what really divides the Paladin from the cleric? Laser cleric option is about it beyond the types of bonuses. Thing is that the paladin archetype fills every single role, so the arcetype ends up getting cut into smaller, less distinct pieces. I've got a really strong feeling that the big difference between a str cleric, a str paladin, and an avenger will be the riders on their abilities. All three are heavily armoured, all three have greatswords, just one hands out bonuses to her allies, one hands out penalties to her opponents, and one hands out pain. If we built all of these into their parent holy-knight arcetype then the resulting class would be OP to the max. Given that the paladin trades a lot of damage for her extra leader abilities I think the Avenger is meant to be a more satisfying option for those looking to smite in the name of their god. Not punish, defend, intervene, or mediate: just cut muthaf*****s up with a big-ass sword, possibly even trading mobility options for even more damage.
Cadfan, can you point us to the info you read?
From what I read however, he says it's an awesome class, and I don't think someone intelligent as he seems to be would say so if the class is as similar to the Paladin as many are saying. Mike Mearls said in his blog that the PHb2 is his best work so far, would he say so if it included a class with such big problems as being just a striker paladin? Because I hope you're with me if I say it's the worst error in class designing: making a class that portrays a character type which can be portrayed by previous classes.
In short, I think we're missing something, and that this Avenger is going to be something really new and satisfying.
probably. High strength pretty much rules out a ranged attacker, so unless there's ranger type split in the class there goes crossbows out the window.
I've been thinking for a while that Divine would end up being the least distinct power source in terms of class-to-class distinction. Already what really divides the Paladin from the cleric? Laser cleric option is about it beyond the types of bonuses. Thing is that the paladin archetype fills every single role, so the arcetype ends up getting cut into smaller, less distinct pieces. I've got a really strong feeling that the big difference between a str cleric, a str paladin, and an avenger will be the riders on their abilities. All three are heavily armoured, all three have greatswords, just one hands out bonuses to her allies, one hands out penalties to her opponents, and one hands out pain. If we built all of these into their parent holy-knight arcetype then the resulting class would be OP to the max. Given that the paladin trades a lot of damage for her extra leader abilities I think the Avenger is meant to be a more satisfying option for those looking to smite in the name of their god. Not punish, defend, intervene, or mediate: just cut muthaf*****s up with a big-ass sword, possibly even trading mobility options for even more damage.
Ahhh, I see. I think I see where it can go now. :D
I found a reference to this playtest in Wil Wheaton's article about 4e, but it says nothing about the race he played or the stats.
Cadfan, can you point us to the info you read?
From what I read however, he says it's an awesome class, and I don't think someone intelligent as he seems to be would say so if the class is as similar to the Paladin as many are saying. Mike Mearls said in his blog that the PHb2 is his best work so far, would he say so if it included a class with such big problems as being just a striker paladin? Because I hope you're with me if I say it's the worst error in class designing: making a class that portrays a character type which can be portrayed by previous classes.
In short, I think we're missing something, and that this Avenger is going to be something really new and satisfying.
QFT.
Btw, are y'all talking about Wil Wheaton from Star Trek??????????
Ahhh, I see. I think I see where it can go now. :D
QFT.
Btw, are y'all talking about Wil Wheaton from Star Trek??????????
Hah, had to google for that acronym... Yes, I think he's that Wil Wheaton, found some references. I don't know him, still.
I look rather ignorant in this post, haha...
Paladin and Str cleric aren't far from each other in concept or look, but they play different for sure. Same spread on laser cleric and invoker. Give it the right party dynamic and class features and fluff "striker paladin" can be distinct.