Now, in the Unofficial Compilation thread it was mentioned that an Arcane bard had been confirmed, and maybe it is my lack of knowlege of EN World but it did not seem to be a very official confirmation. Any explanation or elaboration would be appreciated.
But my real question is... IS ALL HOPE LOST FOR A NON-ARCANE BARD?
First, to clarify I am Pro-4E! I have been excited since it was first anounced and am now a proud 4E DM. Additionally, I am Pro-Bards. Even though it has been an iconically terrible class my love for them has never diminished. The 3E/3.5 Bard was leaps and bounds more useful and interesting than the 2E bard (IMO) and I am looking forward to the next evolution when the 4E Bard is finally released.
The #1 reason that I know in my heart of hearts that the 4E Bard won't suck is Half-Elves. If our friendly neighborhood Wizards could design a non-sucky (let alone DESIRABLE) Half-Elf, then there is no doubt in my mind that they can design a viable and effective bard.
My only concern is speculation/rumors/confirmations?/whathaveyou about the bard being Arcane. It is my deephearted opinion that this is a mistake. I think we have spent three and a half editions watching the bard shoved into boxes where it did not belong. In 2E the bard was essentially a gimped wizard, and in 3.5 it had a much better sense of identity, as a real Bard, but it was lost under the trap of the bard archetypal "Jack of all trades, master of none" and as such stuck in that terrible world between roles.
I think it is clear that the Bard fits extremely well into the leader role. But I ust cannot get behind the idea of a bards powers being referred to as spells. Martial "magic" is called an exploit, Arcane magic is called a spell, Primal magic is called an evocation, and Divine magic is called a prayer, which I fully support. But the aesthetic for the bard is not a physical exploit, just as much as it is not a prayer to the divine or an evocation of primal forces, and just as much as it is not a spell learned from an ancient tome or a dark master.
It is the magic inherent in song, in music. I still support the idea that the Bard should make its home exactly where it belongs, in it's very own powersource. I support a Harmonic (or other similarly named) powersource for the Bard (and for the Bard only). A Bards powers should be called songs, or some have some kind of musical theme such as Chorus for at-wills, Bridge for Encounters, a Scale for utilities, and a Coda for Dailies... or some other assortment of musical terms.
I am not opposed to Bards casting spells, but I think that it should be a part of the "Jack of all trades" motif. I think that giving the Bard a feature similar to the Half-Elves Dilettante power would EFFECTIVELY accomplish this, as opposed to the 3.5 "you can do almost anything, but you kind of suck at it" version.
I think a much more effective restylization of the bard would be to transform the Bard into a "Jack-of-all-Trades, master of One", in that they are very good at their own bardly devices, while still nodding at the "well"-roundedness of bards-past.
This Dilettante-esque feature could (just as it's Half-Elven progenitor) cross not only class lines but also power source lines.
As far as builds are concerned I would very much like to see the Instrumentalist Bard and the Vocalist bard. The Instumentalist would be more caster-like, and would have a secondary role of controller, and the Vocalist bard would have hands free for weapons and be an up-close secondary defender type.
Different instrument groups for bards would be like different in a similar manner to different weapon groups for fighters or beast groups for beastmaster rangers. I would imagine that the instrument would be an implement, and that a vocalist bard would NOT have access to a "voicebox" implement, sacrificing this for the use of weapons.
I think giving bards Linguist as a bonus feat makes a lot of sense, as well as the Jack-of-all-Trades feat (or perhaps the choice between the two...?... one for vocalists and the other for instumentalists?)
Obviously, as a leader they would need some sort of Inspiring Word-like power for healing. I would hope that this is where a Bardic Music-esque mechanic would take effect, but I'm not exactly sure how.
Also, I would like to humbly apologize if all of this has already been suggested, nullified, or just discussed THOROUGHLY during my forum absence.
I'm just trying to do everything that I can to help support the bard and make it the best class that it can be, and seeing as how Wizards has said numerous times that they actually read these things, I thought this would be a good place to start.
But what other class could use said Harmonic power source? It would seem like a power source with only one character class attached it, and i don't see Wizards doing that. Since Bard songs produced "magical" effects it seems only logical that they be Arcane. Anything else would be a complete re-invention of the class.
I have to agree on the power source bit. It's kinda like the "Ki" powersource. It seems to be a powersource made ENTIRELY for one class, the Monk. Either that or the entire powersource will be "Just like other classes, but ASIAN!"
...*Groan*...
Regardless, Bards don't need their own powersource. Really, powersource doesn't even really mean anything. It's just nice little tags for classes. It isn't reallt that big a deal if they label Bards "Arcane". In your game, just describe them using the power of "Harmony" instead. It`s fluff.
But as for it just being fluff... yeah, that's the whole point :D
The superior crunch (IMO) of 4E has opened the door for equivicably superior fluff (.... IMO :D)
Also, not everything that produces a "magical" effect is arcane... like divine magic, or primal magic, or shadow magic... and all of the other magical effects we have yet to see/read rumors about on EN World : D
Finally, I personally have no problem promoting the creation of a power source for the sole class of the Bard. I feel like the Ki powersource definitely has some room for potential classes, but my INTENTION with the Harmonic source was to create a non-grid-filled powersource for the beloved bard. The point was to give the bard a sense of identity, much like the newly crunched Half-Elf seems more like an actual race rather than a weak combination of two other races (like in 3.5). Giving the Bard it's own powersource is just, to me, an acknowlegdement that the bard is just flat out different. He doesn't fit into the other categories because he fits into all categories. He is a Jack-of-All-Trades.
Of course, this is just how I perceive the Bard. It is a personal interpretation of the Skalds of old. The warrior-poets.
... in the end, the Arcane tagline is fine. So long as you jam a crap-load of musical terms into the power names, I will be more than happy.
Looking forward to an updated Dissonant Chord,
-TheWaterBear
Besides. Power sources are pretty much flavor only (with exception to some things being restricted by power source, such as Shape Magic Archmage utility 26). With a little imagination you can re-tool the flavor.
But my real question is... IS ALL HOPE LOST FOR A NON-ARCANE BARD?
The Bard is confirmed as being in Arcane Power. So yes it is arcane(to be precise, arcane leader, but that wasn't your question).
When it comes down to it, Bards being arcane really wouldn't be the end of the world, so long as they are fun and viable just like every other class (which they will be :D).
But as for it just being fluff... yeah, that's the whole point :D
The superior crunch (IMO) of 4E has opened the door for equivicably superior fluff (.... IMO :D)
Also, not everything that produces a "magical" effect is arcane... like divine magic, or primal magic, or shadow magic... and all of the other magical effects we have yet to see/read rumors about on EN World : D
Finally, I personally have no problem promoting the creation of a power source for the sole class of the Bard. I feel like the Ki powersource definitely has some room for potential classes, but my INTENTION with the Harmonic source was to create a non-grid-filled powersource for the beloved bard. The point was to give the bard a sense of identity, much like the newly crunched Half-Elf seems more like an actual race rather than a weak combination of two other races (like in 3.5). Giving the Bard it's own powersource is just, to me, an acknowlegdement that the bard is just flat out different. He doesn't fit into the other categories because he fits into all categories. He is a Jack-of-All-Trades.
Of course, this is just how I perceive the Bard. It is a personal interpretation of the Skalds of old. The warrior-poets.
... in the end, the Arcane tagline is fine. So long as you jam a crap-load of musical terms into the power names, I will be more than happy.
Looking forward to an updated Dissonant Chord,
-TheWaterBear
Man this post and your last one could have been said from the bottom of my heart. :D No serious I can just sign to that.
Also, as something that could be used to suppoprt the Bard's music ties, potentially Songs could go the way of Rages with the Barbarian. The Barbarian's Rages are his Dailies, while all his powers are Evocations, those specifically are Rages.
This is a good point Badger, and hopefully they will take a similar route.
Also, thank you Ranadiel for your direct answer and Nolwelen for your support :D
Maybe we could see the return of and reimagining of Bardic Colleges...?
-TheWaterBear
Bards were arcane in 3rd edition... I don't see why it's that terrible that they will be arcane in 4e.
Yeah, they've been Arcane for a while. There's no reason they shouldn't be Arcane.
But what other class could use said Harmonic power source?
Jazz/Fusion Guitarist
There's no reason they shouldn't be Arcane.
"under Druidical tutelage"
Yeah, they've been Arcane for a while. There's no reason they shouldn't be Arcane.
The only time a bard wasn't arcane was in 1e, where a bard was technically a fighter/thief/druid dual-class abomination with ridiculous stat requirements and basically no payoff. Ever since 2e, though, bards have been arcane.
There is plenty of space within the arcane power source for bards -- sly, tricky spells have always existed and they fit the bard just perfectly. Heck, there's even a pre-made mechanic for the bard's instrument: implements. And when combined with the nature of the leader role, I would honestly say that I expect this bard to be, hands down, the best bard ever printed. I honestly can't wait to try it out, even more than the other classes in PHB2.
In terms of other expectations, I see the two builds working out quite easily:
'Battlesinger', focus on Dex (possibly Str) and Cha, stays in melee while "singing" buffs to his allies. Lightly armored, agile, wily, the archetypal dashing swordsman.
'Arcane Lyricist', focus on Cha and Int (possibly Wis), holds an instrument (read: implement) with two hands and casts spells mixing his instrumental and arcane knowledge to both enhance his allies strengths and weaken and demoralize his enemies. Likely one of the lowest damaging characters in the game, but a very potent combination of leader and controller more than makes up for it.
In terms of other expectations, I see the two builds working out quite easily:
'Battlesinger', focus on Dex (possibly Str) and Cha, stays in melee while "singing" buffs to his allies. Lightly armored, agile, wily, the archetypal dashing swordsman.
'Arcane Lyricist', focus on Cha and Int (possibly Wis), holds an instrument (read: implement) with two hands and casts spells mixing his instrumental and arcane knowledge to both enhance his allies strengths and weaken and demoralize his enemies. Likely one of the lowest damaging characters in the game, but a very potent combination of leader and controller more than makes up for it.
Based off of the Bard info in Ampersand, I'd say the two bard builds are more likely to be Cunning Bard(confirmed), Cha and Int focus, and Valorous Bard, Cha and Con focus.
Based off of the Bard info in Ampersand, I'd say the two bard builds are more likely to be Cunning Bard(confirmed), Cha and Int focus, and Valorous Bard, Cha and Con focus.
Gah! Curse you D&DI! Curse you for offering such a craptacular package, and then tempt me with your exclusive previews!
Revenge shall be mine!... somehow.
Gah! Curse you D&DI! Curse you for offering such a craptacular package, and then tempt me with your exclusive previews!
Revenge shall be mine!... somehow.
Hey check this out, I just built a 10th level Bard!:P
-=Edit: On second thought, I might be teasing you a bit too much, but I just can't resist.=-
The Bard Preview... it's so beautiful
Forget all that harmonic crap... they designed the **** out of the bard and all the fluff matches PERFECTLY and I freakin' LOVE IT!!!!
I can't wait to find a DM! (I'm the only one in my area
)It
Kicks
Ass
Half-Elven Bard baby! I cannot wait!:D
Jazz/Fusion Guitarist
Hilarious.
To answer the question what other ways could harmonics be used:
Specialty wizards (oh please, you know they are coming we've seen the first already).
Most leadership types could probably use a thing or two from harmonics.
Wu Jen, Shaman,
Barbarians (intimidate type powers using the strength of the roar look to African mythos for this type of acoustical barrage),
Ninja's (the absence of sound is as dangerous as sound itself),
Defenders (sort of a sirens call to battle)
Then in terms of enemies Sirens, dragons (not song dragons), orcs, minotaurs (the bray of the minotaur could steel a man's courage and drop him to his knees---taken from Greek legend), elementals (again not song elementals or sound elementals but elementals using sound as a method of attack think of the 5 elements fire, water earth air wood(from chinese myth) which of these doesn't have sound attached to them. When a fire burns it crackles. When water is around it patters, or swirls drains or belches, Air wooshes, and earth thuds. It also booms and cracks and sometimes rumbles.
I think a non-arcane bard is a good choice. Here's why
In certain African rituals the magicians will rub the body down with berries and spirit wine, special waters effused with spirits, then make the warriors drink herb concoctions to prepare them for battle. After all of this is done, drummers begin a rhythm that eventually hypnotizes both the warriors and the non-participants. The magician makes them impervious to attack but the drummers hypnotic drumming activates in them a lack of fear, and a belief in their imperviousness.
The drums prevent fear, sounds sort of leaderish to me, but they do not have magical powers. In fact in those same societies the drummers are often removed from the regular popultion because they are said to be removed from the powers of magic.
My other reasons are game choices. As most have pointed out the term is fluff, so why not? This argument is really a take on zero sum. There are 3000 (not a real number just an example) players clamoring for bards. Ten specifically want them to have powers related to music. If you make the bards with arcane, 2990 are happy they have a bard, and ten are ****** off because the bard is just another wizard. If you made the bard using harmonics or some other power, ten people are really happy, and 2990 are happy they finally have bards. The 2990 aren't going to have a problem but the ten you have changed their mood from angry to super happy. That's a blaringly obvious choice. While most people dismiss fluff, it is what makes an RPG, if we just gave you a set of rulesand made everything generic you'd probably stop playing the game. Instead the names are specific, it's not a blade on a stick instead it's a halberd, its not a guy with a blade, it's a barbarian with a falchion. The fluff terms used in an RPG are as important as the crunchy terms. By calling it arcane you are just encouraging people to call it fluffy-bunny-wizard with no real bite. You call it Sonic, or harmonic or symphonic or acxoustic you suddenly have meaning more than just another wizard version. More importantly having that power type exist does no harm to continuity while it flushes out character classes, sounds like a triple winner to me.
"under Druidical tutelage"
... what do a bunch of treehuggers have to do with a magician with a mandolin?
Lute Hero!!!
With the release of the 4th edition Bard I can now play my favorite in-character mini-game:
Lute Hero!!!
Why not Sitar Hero?
Heck, there's even a pre-made mechanic for the bard's instrument: implements.
+6 banjo of great inspiration, FTW!
+6 banjo of great inspiration, FTW!
No no no...
+6 duelist's banjo
No no no...
+6 duelist's banjo
lol +6 Banjo of Deliverance: It gives a +6 enhancement bonus to sodomy checks.
...That movie kinda sucked.
... what do a bunch of treehuggers have to do with a magician with a mandolin?
it kind fo goes to the historic roots of it all... Bards share the mystic ( arcane , using the literal work, not the fantasy word) powers of the druids. But the bard is not that kind of bard any longer, its basically made itself anew.
Dual-wielded +6 Banjo and Kazoo
Isn't that banjo and Kazooie?
... what do a bunch of treehuggers have to do with a magician with a mandolin?
I don't know, ask the 1st Ed PHB.
I don't know, ask the 1st Ed PHB.
I asked mine, but it didn't answer me. Just kept saying something about 'stuck in a box for years' and 'choking on dust'.
+6 duelist's banjo
Got one better, +6 duelist's fiddle, with a special daily to have bonuses against devils...
anyone?
(cricket, cricket)
Got one better, +6 duelist's fiddle, with a special daily to have bonuses against devils...
anyone?
(cricket, cricket)
Asmodeus went down to Cormyr, he was lookin' for a soul to steal ...
I asked mine, but it didn't answer me. Just kept saying something about 'stuck in a box for years' and 'choking on dust'.
Was it being a coy little bastard? Mine always does that...
But speaking of dusting off the old 1st Ed books, I've been thinking of doing the very same thing (even though mine are still on one of my shelves), as for some reason 4th Ed has given me a hankering to start up a 1st Ed (or maybe even basic) campaign alongside my 4th Ed.