It's not a bad race, I just think it's lacking something unique that other races don't offer is all.
They look too much like Shifters and they have weak fluff IMO, I could easily make a Warforged who was a creation of the feywild to protect it against the far realm.
I think they would be cooler if they're primal spirits; manifestations of the earth's body and soul, nature's will given form that has it's own thoughts and personality but is still connected to all other spirits of the earth. something more symbolic and at the same time conceptually flexable.
They need a more unique look:
Notice how she looks almost immaterial, asthough she was just a trick of the eyes.
Does anyone else think they lack in player appeal?, Is anyone excited to play one?, or does anyone have a better idea about the fluff or have a cool picture that they think would make a better Wilden.
I think it's going to be great to have a more exotic race. We have more than enough humans but with pointy ears. What I'm not excited about are its mechanics. Mechanically, it's just boring, and I think a great way to fix that would be to remove that defense boost they don't need and give them something that's actually interesting and unique.
They look too much like Shifters...
Are you high?
How in the world do plant people with flowers and Venus flytraps on their heads at all resemble furry cat-people or wolf-people?
They need a more unique look:
Is that not basically how they look now?
Except that they're not so overly sexualized as that. Of course, plant people have no excuse to be sexy to us, so that's a good thing, IMO. I'm sick of female everythings needing to have big boobs and conform to human standards of beauty. Just let them not be human like they're supposed to not be.
Just let them not be human like they're supposed to not be.
Double negative means THE WORLD EXPLODES. No, I don't actually care about that. :P
But yeah, the art in the article was very early design, and they said that they were working on their look still. So, I'd expect them to look about what you showed; they're plant people.
And how are they any different from the description you gave about Primal spirits?
Anyways, I'm certainly excited about them. Dwarves make great Divine Classes, but they just feel weird for all the Primal classes they're good at. Having a real "primal" race with a bonus to Wisdom will be fantastic. And I expect even more Primal classes that they're good at in the PHB3, which should be cool.
(I know other races use Wisdom too, obviously, but none of them feel really primal enough (the elf is close, but the wilden will be full-on nature attack!). And the dwarf feels hardly nature-y, despite having the Wis/Con stats that make him an ideal shaman, as well as a good druid.)
Are you high?
How in the world do plant people with flowers and Venus flytraps on their heads at all resemble furry cat-people or wolf-people?
Have you not seen the new art from the CB?
They look like furry cat-people to me.
Except that they're not so overly sexualized as that. Of course, plant people have no excuse to be sexy to us, so that's a good thing, IMO. I'm sick of female everythings needing to have big boobs and conform to human standards of beauty. Just let them not be human like they're supposed to not be.
Fair enough, how's this
A sort of "Forest spirit" is basically the look I'm going for.
I just think if they looked more elemental and ghost like and were more spirit like in nature and mechanics, then they would have a little more to offer.
Have you not seen the new art from the CB?
They look like furry cat-people to me.
"As the concept art accompanying this article shows, we’re still working on the look of the wilden. We’re aiming to play up both their fey origin and their plant nature, working toward a look that’s both sprightly and feral."
Yeah. The concept art for the article was very vague and sketchy. And the Character Builder art is almost exactly the same, but instead of black and white, they colored it orange. Why orange? I don't know. But it's probably not how they're going to look in the PHB3.
The article also says that early in life, they're a rich green. Later, they reach a darker summer green. Then when they get really old, they turn orange and brown like autumn.
Trust me, they'll look a lot more plant-like in the finished version.
They look alot more animal like in the character builder than they do in the article, in the article they looked like plant/bug/cat/alien, now they just look like cats
On the other hand though, Minotaurs and Githzerai sound like they're full of possibilities, providing that they finally come up with a Minotaur mechanic that doesn't suck. Third time's the charm, right?
Have you not seen the new art from the CB?
Reminds me of Wolverine... :P
first the wilden themselves don't grab me...so I would not be excited to play one
Second the idea of the wilden is something new and something that breaks the mold...that excites me. I don't think everyone will play each 'new' idea, but the mor enew ideas we get the mor epeople will play them overall...
Personally, I'll probably disallow every race in PHB3, especially if they do goblins or kobolds.
Don't you think that's a little self-centered of you? Just because you don't like them doesn't mean you have to ban them. Maybe your players will love them and create great characters with them. On the other hand, if all of your group doesn't like them, then there's really no reason to ban them, is there? :P
I don't like the look of them, personally. It would've been better if they looked more like dryads, or even mini-ents maybe.
And through the power of reflavoring, they can look like that in your campaign/when you play one. Thus, no problem.
Every class in the Primal power source leaves me cold, so its racial embodiment does the same. I'm just not an outdoorsy kinda guy.
I'm not outdoorsy either, or religious for that matter, but there's something about the Primal and Divine classes that tickle my fancy!
I'm not outdoorsy either, or religious for that matter, but there's something about the Primal and Divine classes that tickle my fancy!
I'm nonspiritual and nonreligious. I'll take martial and arcane, you can have primal and divine. Everybody's happy!
. They remind me of entlings/treants or awakened trees (Eberron), so they have a history in D&D they can draw upon.I guess we'll see cool artwork for them (hopefully by Michael Komarck and/or Steve Argyle), some mechanical streamlining, and possibly a different name (Wilden Name Poll).
Do I think the concept is unique? Possibly, but I'm not sure; 4E's Wilden seem to be a slightly watered down version of Killoren.
I'm very excited! But then again, I'm always excited about new options. Bring 'em on, I say.
+1. I dont know if Ill ever play one but they look cool and its something different than human with pointy ears.
I like the idea and actually think the racial encounter powers are pretty good.
hunter: free immediate reaction shifting +1d6 extra damage? great (really great for ranged classes)
destroyer: free melee attack that DAZES if someone hits or misses you or an ally? great
ancients: free teleporting and CA for you and the rogue(best case situation)? great (really good for wardens, melee druids and others)
I do agree that the +1 to one NAD is pretty weak. some kind of wilderness shifting bonus would fit really well(like the elves' wild step. heck they're more in tune with nature than the elves, they ARE nature
). I'm building a wilden bear shaman and him going to be using the hunter free shifting to help make up for his craptastic AC(and hopefully not getting attacked at all:P)
Always wanted to play a killoren in 3e( mostly played living greyhawk and my home game DM liked the base races only) and and i think that this pretty much works as a close replacement for them.
So am I exited about the race? yes. Am I excited about the name? nope. they need a new name.;)
I love the idea, but I wish they were mechanically closer to their Killoren ancestors.
How much closer mechanically do they have to be?
How much closer mechanically do they have to be?
I liked them better when they weren't called wilden.
"W" seems to be the favorite letter of 4E.Cheers,
Cam
Also, the information given in "Playing a Wilden" is conducive to creating an interesting, believable, and unique character. That's gold in my book.
I liked them better when they weren't called wilden.
Cheers,
Cam
Look on the birght side though. They weren't renamed to be the Warren or Waroren. :P
Don't you think that's a little self-centered of you? Just because you don't like them doesn't mean you have to ban them. Maybe your players will love them and create great characters with them.
I don't think it's too self-cetered of them. Afterall, it's entirely possible that WoTC will release something that simply just does not fit the types of games/worlds somebody runs.
So sure, maybe the players could create some great characters with certain option - in another campaign.
I don't think it's too self-cetered of them.
Well then we disagree. :P
There are too many threads going on about this already, so I'll just leave it at that.
Also,
I'm sick of female everythings needing to have big boobs and conform to human standards of beauty. Just let them not be human like they're supposed to not be.
I totally agree. I'm still not sure why dragonborn have breasts. Are they mammals? Are they Dragons? Do they hatch from eggs?
And through the power of reflavoring, they can look like that in your campaign/when you play one. Thus, no problem.
I am aware that I can reflavour how they look. I have done so on many occasions with other classes and races. That doesn't mean that my complaint about their appearance isn't valid. I simply don't like how they look at all.
I'm still not sure why dragonborn have breasts. Are they mammals? Are they Dragons? Do they hatch from eggs?
Dragonborn are mammals, and they do hatch from eggs.
There was an article in Dragon about them that mentioned their mammalian status.
As for the Wilden, I understand that a lot of people want something "different" or "alien" available for play. Not that I'm saying that's bad, just that sort of thing appeals to a lot of people.
The catch is, for all their "different" or "alien" appearance, WotC hasn't shown any art of them wearing armor, bracers, gloves, boots, etc, like they will inevitably end up wearing. Their naked-leafiness is one of the main things that separates them from the other races, but when they're totally decked out in adventuring gear, they're going to look a lot less "different" or "alien."
So, you're basically trading in "humans with pointy ears" for "humans with leafy heads."
Now, I can really appreciate their fluff. In fact, that's what draws me to races. I hate to see when a player chooses an exotic looking race and then basically plays it like a human. I'd much rather play a "human with pointy ears" whose personality was unique and clearly different from your average human.
So hooray for the fluff, meh for the look, and boo for the accursed PC dependence on gear.
And thanks for the Dragon article. I'll look that up.
I'm nonspiritual and nonreligious. I'll take martial and arcane, you can have primal and divine. Everybody's happy!
You can be a Swordmage and I can be a Druid...and we'll fight crime!! :P
I love the idea, but I wish they were mechanically closer to their Killoren ancestors.
I don't know anything about Killoren, educate me please! What were their mechanics like?
I do wish they'd change Wilden from fey to natural, and specifically say they come from The World, and are primal spirits incarnate. It fits much better with their fluff.
Undrave, Killoren were in the 3e Races of the Wild book. Rather than being the Cool New Race (tm) for that book, like Goliaths were for Races of Stone, Killoren were relegated to the back of the "other races" chapter.
They were given about 5 pages of space while the "Cool" New Bird People Raptorians had an entire chapter devoted to how much exactly like humanoid birds they were.
Suffice to say, Killoren were much more interesting than the Raptorians... as evidenced by the Wilden being in 4e.
I don't know anything about Killoren, educate me please! What were their mechanics like?
As far as I remember, the Killoren had the same mechanics as the Wilden. They had the bonuses to Knowledge(Now just called Nature) and Move Silently(now absorbed by Stealth). They had Nature's Aspect, which allowed them to choose one of three aspects each day.... Pretty much like the Wilden are now IMO. The only thing that I think changed is their racial ability modifiers.
rqshades, gear can always be fluffed to look different. At least that's what I always do with basically everything. My Minotaur Fighter will certainly not wear a Helm of Opportunity. He will wear a Cowboy Hat of Opportunity. :D But humor aside, a Wilden is certainly capable of keeping its alien look even decked out in adventuring gear. All you need is some imagination.
Yeah, my Warforged Warden *technically* wears hide armor, but I say he's just got a thick layer of moss and vines covering up his weaker areas. I like the idea of "Hey, is that a walking suit of armor?" better than "Hey, why is that suit of plate armor wearing hide armor?"
He doesn't even have pouches, he uses a gold compartment. Which is good, because the bard has tried to steal from him when he's unconscious...
As for the Wilden, the name could be more appealing... W does seem to be a favorite letter (Warden, Warlord, Warlock, Wizard, Warforged; that's a large percentage of things) :P
And I love their racial powers, I just wish they had something else going for them. Anything. It's kinda like how it is for shifters; they have their power, and nothing else, and that feels kinda boring...
Do we really need another fey race? how do they expect me to excited about a fifth fey race?
I do wish they'd change Wilden from fey to natural, and specifically say they come from The World, and are primal spirits incarnate. It fits much better with their fluff.
Agreed, that way they truely would make the best race for Shaman and Druid; because being Fey, the Wilden would have just as much of a connection to the natural world as Gnomes do
I think they would be much more appealing if they were less alien; afterall they were created to fight aliens, so shouldn't they feel and more natural and not so creepy?
Does anyone here have any character concepts in mind for the wilden or are you just excited to see new things?
Do we really need another fey race? how do they expect me to excited about a fifth fey race?
Hmm which would be more new and interesting, a 5th fey race or a 17th natural race... I wonder? Seriously you're irritated by the race's origin, that is meaningless fluff that you could throw out on a whim and you want to say that that turns you off of them? If I've heard a flimsier excuse before it would surprise me. Now sure some shadow races would be nice or some more entertaining less generic elemental races but more fey won't hurt, certainly has the potential to be more interesting than yet another natural race.
<>
Does anyone here have any character concepts in mind for the wilden or are you just excited to see new things?
I want a Wilden Warden named Warren. :D
Bel
I want a Wilden Warden named Warren. :D
Bel
I have a Dwarf Bear Shaman named Berend whose bear is named Baern.
Hmm which would be more new and interesting, a 5th fey race or a 17th natural race... I wonder? Seriously you're irritated by the race's origin, that is meaningless fluff that you could throw out on a whim and you want to say that that turns you off of them? If I've heard a flimsier excuse before it would surprise me. Now sure some shadow races would be nice or some more entertaining less generic elemental races but more fey won't hurt,
I'm really sick of people telling me so stop fussing over fluff, is it wrong to have standards when it comes to the products I buy? The writing is there for a reason; it there to inspire the player and create a conventional sense of things. It's the whole reason you buy these books; because if you really believed the fluff was "meaningless" you could just reflavor anything in the PH to be what you want, so don't tell me it's "meaningless".
certainly has the potential to be more interesting than yet another natural race.
This is the kind of thinking I'm "irritated by" people who think in order for something to be different it just has to have the right keywords; WotC made Wilden Fey for no other reason than to make people like you say "ooh they're from another plane of existence, they must be interesting" even though it makes no sense for them to be Fey. My point was not that we needed more natural races, my point was that we needed more unique races and being from the Feywild does not equal uniqueness.
I don't care how flimsy you think my problems with Wilden are, it's still better than buying a sub-par product with a smile on my face like some sort of tool.
This is the kind of thinking I'm "irritated by" people who think in order for something to be different it just has to have the right keywords; WotC made Wilden Fey for no other reason than to make people like you say "ooh they're from another plane of existence, they must be interesting" even though it makes no sense for them to be Fey. My point was not that we needed more natural races, my point was that we needed more unique races and being from the Feywild does not equal uniqueness.
Excuse me? Did you even bother reading the Wilden's fluff? They were created by nature. All things created by nature, as avatars for nature, are FEY.
I don't care how flimsy you think my problems with Wilden are, it's still better than buying a sub-par product with a smile on my face like some sort of tool.
That's right, go ahead and insult everyone by calling them a tool just because they disagree with if it'll make you feel better. Won't make you any allies though.
Wilden are a terrible version of playable dryads. Dryads themselves, found in the Monster Manual on page 96, have almost the exact same fluff as the Wilden. They simply have better mechanics. Why would you be excited for a crappy knock off of something that's been around since... well, since the game itself?
Because we don't have dryads. And look at the picture for 4e dryads; it's not what it was for Pre-4e. Trust me, they're not the same thing.
I want a Wilden Warden named Warren. :D
I'd rather go with my Warforged Warden/Warlord named Warren.
(alright. He isn't called Warren. But the rest is true ;))
I'd rather go with my Warforged Warden/Warlord named Warren.
(alright. He isn't called Warren. But the rest is true ;))
Multiclass Warlock and give yourself the title of "the Wandering Warrior".
Wilden are a terrible version of playable dryads. Dryads themselves, found in the Monster Manual on page 96, have almost the exact same fluff as the Wilden. They simply have better mechanics. Why would you be excited for a crappy knock off of something that's been around since... well, since the game itself?
What Dryad mechanics? Dryads don't have a PC race write up.
You mean Teleport to a tree and turn into a sexy elven chick?
I like the Wilden, though I do agree giving them a few fluffy abilities (like being able to ignore difficult terrain for exemple or a random weapon proficiency) would be more fun.
Maybe make the bonus to one of the skill be dependant on the aspect you are in? Like Aspect of the Destroyer gets +2 Intimidate, Aspect of the Hunter gets +2 Stealth and Aspect of the Ancient gets +2 Heal or something.
Excuse me? Did you even bother reading the Wilden's fluff? They were created by nature. All things created by nature, as avatars for nature, are FEY.
Where did you come up with that? Where is that written?
Here's what the Monster Manual says:
Fey [Origin]: Fey creatures are native to the Feywild.
Natural [Origin]: Natural creatures are native to the natural
world—the world of humans, dwarves, elves, halflings, and
dragons. Most natural creatures breathe, eat, and sleep.
Natural creatures with the construct or undead keyword are
exceptions.
Nope, not there. All that seems to say is that Fey are from the Feywild and Natural creatures are from the Natural world
Shambling Mound
Large natural animate (plant)
Vine Horror
Medium natural humanoid (plant)
Hmmm, creatures made out of nature itself yet they are not Fey.
All being Fey means is that they are alien from another plain called the Feywild, The Primal power source relates to the Primal Spirits that only exist in the Natural World because they are a part of the Natural World's origin. So I don't see how a Fey creature like Wilden has any more connection to the Primal power source than a Dwarf or Deva does, in fact, Devas, who's existence is from a pact between angels and primal spirits, have way more of a Primal flavor than some alien Fey.
Where did you come up with that? Where is that written?
Hags
Arcana Check 15:
Hags are living manifestations of nature's ugliness, much as eladrin and elves embody nature's beauty.
Hags and eladrin are medium fey humanoids.
Anyways, as much as things in the Feywild may represent parts of nature, the plane itself is based around ARCANE magic, not Primal magic (that's from the natural world ... go ahead and roll Nature checks to see, fellas). This is why Eladrin make great Wizards and Elves (their natural world counterparts) make good Druids.
In short, due to the fluff of the wilden, it makes sense for them to be from the Feywild ... but that really ought to mean that they're better at Arcane magic than Primal. Frankly, if they want to have a Primal focus they ought to be from the Natural world instead, where the power source comes from. After all, Gnomes and Eladrin both come from the Feywild, which is why they rock at Arcane magic.
Well. There it is.
Sincerely,
Lord Dreadman
Options are good. I don't need more human/elf/dwarf variations at this moment...
RAW disagrees with you.
Where exactly is this written?
Hags are living manifestations of nature's ugliness, much as eladrin and elves embody nature's beauty
That does not mean much, it does not say that come from the Natural World, so as far as I can tell they're Fey because they're magical beings from the Arcane Feywild.
There's also the part where several sources like Dragon articles list Primal Spirits as members of the Arch-Fey
I'm not sure I have seen this, where is this from?
Theoretically a Natural being can become an Arch-fey, and an Alien being can become a Primal Spirit; so a being could be both, but that does not mean they're the same thing.
The Wilden are supposed to be beings created by nature to fight beings created by the far realm; they are supposed to symbolize 'adaption' and 'nature fighting back', they're nature's defense mechanism.
A racial concept can only be done once without becoming redundant, regardless of plane the second one's from; so it needs to be done right the first time, they should be from the plane that makes the most sense.
Races are varied by their concept as a whole, not by what plane their from.
and I'll point out fey is not a keyword
I was more referring to things like how some people think that the Warden is a unique concept simply because there are no other Primal Defenders, they just focus on the labels and not the concept as a whole.
But there's so much more to a race concept than what plane it comes from.
The Wilden are supposed to be beings created by nature to fight beings created by the far realm; they are supposed to symbolize 'adaption' and 'nature fighting back', they're nature's defense mechanism.
A racial concept can only be done once without becoming redundant, regardless of plane the second one's from; so it needs to be done right the first time, they should be from the plane that makes the most sense.
Races are varied by their concept as a whole, not by what plane their from.
I thought I could get you to do this, you've pretty much defeated your own original arguement. Being fey doesn't change anything nor does it really matter as far as the races concept, so why should them being a "5th fey race" make you less enthusiastic (or more) about them?
I thought I could get you to do this, you've pretty much defeated your own original arguement. Being fey doesn't change anything nor does it really matter as far as the races concept, so why should them being a "5th fey race" make you less enthusiastic (or more) about them?
Filled with win. You, sir, get a cookie.
I wanted to make it bigger, but I have a very very small oven.
Where exactly is this written?
Most sources talking about the Feywild or Primal Spirits.
That does not mean much, it does not say that come from the Natural World, so as far as I can tell they're Fey because they're magical beings from the Arcane Feywild.
And the Feywild is the magical reflection and manifestation of the natural world.
I'm not sure I have seen this, where is this from?
Most recently Dragon 376, the Sarifal article. I was slightly mistaken - it instead lists Arch-Fey as a source for Primal characters to receive their powers. It still establishes a connection between the Fey and Primals.
I think the Wilden have a lot of potential to be a very cool race, but it definitely needs to be worked on.
I saw Dryads mentioned earlier, and it made me think of a changeling in my game (strange but true, read on)
The changeling has assumed the form of the most common humanoids in the area, the Shadar-Kai, so as to blend in (obviously), but also to facilitate relations with the locals. Now...
Something interesting to do would be to give Wilden the ability to assume a more humanoid guise, an alternate form for communicating with the common folk of its area. Such a guise would still have alien qualities, but be much more anthropomorphic than its original form. Each form could have inherent traits that are only able to be used whilst in that form. Minor action to switch.
Voila, a bit of shapechange, keeps its alien look but has another form, some more interesting stuff to go with...
Just a thought anyway, what do ya think?
Foul Deliverer, Fair Destroyer - a wilden summoned/created by a powerful "earth warden" (druid). She looks like a petite human woman with green skin and hair, with eyes of cold black flint, and the strength of primal beasts. She's illiterate, animalistic, and full of wrath. She'd be a warden/barbarian with an axe weapon made of stone (likely flint). :D
Seems like they can't decide if the Feywild is Arcane and Primal, just Arcane, or just Primal. It sounds like a concept invented early on when Elves were just elves and enveloped into one race that had all the nifty powers of every type of spiritual, magical, mental glory combined.
They have never stated it one way or the other.
Bel
Two things.
1) I hate the name. Wilden basically comes down to "them wild things", which is great and all, but it isn't specifically plantlike. Taken together with the very hawklike art (which might change, I know), the first thing that comes to mind is another kind of beast-man, not a creature of the photosynthesizing subset.
2) Which brings to mind the second thing- the art better not suck. The warforged are very wooden already, and these critters need to be distinct. I know they're shopping around for a better look, so I have to reserve judgment. I'm rather hoping it's something that isn't just people + green and leaves, nor a dryad ripoff, but something...nifty. Ahh, well, wait and see, wait and see.
They have never stated it one way or the other.
Bel
On the contrary. While their statements are foggy at best and confusing at worst, they have, in fact, made statements, nonetheless. Let us take a look.
Concerning Primal Power: (PH2 pg 5)
"Characters who use the primal power source stand firmly rooted in the world ...."
"A primal character's greatest concern is with creatures and forces that threaten the stability of the world and the balanced cycles of nature."
Although, it is important to mention that it also says that the primal power source has "some affinity with the native inhabitants of the Feywild." On the other hand, later on it states why wielders of the primal power source also have an affinity to gods and divine characters.
All in all, while they allow for immortal and fey creatures to use the Primal power source, they make it fairly plain that it rests, primarily, in the natural world.
Concerning Arcane Power: (PH, Manuel of the Planes, and DMG)
(PH, pg. 54) "Arcane: Drawing on the magical energy that permeates the cosmos, the arcane power source can be used for a wide variety of effects ...."
(Manuel of the Planes, pg. 34, concerning the Feywild) "Mortals come to this perilous realm to tap into the arcane powers that course like unseen rivers through the wild landscape." (There are numerous references similar to this in the next few pages.)
It is important to note that the forests of the Feywild are often described as "primal," however, they are also called "primordial" a number of times. We, therefore, can assume that this is merely flavorful. (Unless you insist that this is conclusive proof that the Elemental power source also originates from the Feywild, of course.)
(DMG, pg. 161) "Arcane magic flows through [the Feywild] like streams of crystal water."
Therefore, while Arcane power permeates the cosmos, it is, primarily, centered in the Feywild.
I know its a long read, but people like to ask where I get my information from, so here it is. I don't just state things on the forums. Usually, I have a good basis. Now, if you want to provide sources (with page numbers, please) indicating where it "doesn't state anything about arcane or primal" or, perhaps, where it "states that primal power comes from the feywild," that would be awesome. ... Also, good luck with that.
Well. There it is.
Sincerely,
Lord Dreadman
2) Which brings to mind the second thing- the art better not suck. The warforged are very wooden already, and these critters need to be distinct. I know they're shopping around for a better look, so I have to reserve judgment. I'm rather hoping it's something that isn't just people + green and leaves, nor a dryad ripoff, but something...nifty. Ahh, well, wait and see, wait and see.
Doesn't matter. In your game, your Wilden can look like whatever you want it to.
I know its a long read, but people like to ask where I get my information from, so here it is. I don't just state things on the forums. Usually, I have a good basis. Now, if you want to provide sources (with page numbers, please) indicating where it "doesn't state anything about arcane or primal" or, perhaps, where it "states that primal power comes from the feywild," that would be awesome. ... Also, good luck with that.
Well. There it is.
Sincerely,
Lord Dreadman
Dragon #376, an official, core source, states on page 61 that Primal characters can receive their abilities from the Arch-fey. No luck needed, just facts.
Relevant quotes:
Characters who use the primal power source venerate
beast lords and archfey in a manner not unlike
divine worship.
Other sources for primal evocations include, but
are not limited to, the following primal spirits and
archfey:
Dragon #376, an official, core source, states on page 61 that Primal characters can receive their abilities from the Arch-fey. No luck needed, just facts.
Relevant quotes:
Isn't that from a FR article? So the possibility exists that it is a campaign specific aspect.
Dragon #376, an official, core source, states on page 61 that Primal characters can receive their abilities from the Arch-fey. No luck needed, just facts.
Relevant quotes:
Arch-fey != Feywild. Arch-fey are fey creatures so old and powerful they have become in essence primal spirits.
Arch-fey != Feywild. Arch-fey are fey creatures so old and powerful they have become in essence primal spirits.
Which certainly suggests a relationship between the two ideas.
Not that this is particularly surprising, given the nature of the Feywild.
Dryads are the classic example- they are part of the forests of the Prime Material, yet are definitely Fey entities. They are an embodiment of life, particularly of the arboreal variety.
Likewise, some of the undead you might find across the world occur....well I wouldn't use the term naturally, but they aren't originating from the Shadowfell. You have ghosts, very mortal in nature, just as you have those cool shambling monsters(apologies, the name escapes me) that were the personification of defiled natural areas, things like burnt forests and fouled rivers.
Just because something has unnatural traits doesn't make it not-of-this-world. One might encounter an earth elemental in the underdark, a dryad in a grove, or a wrathful spirit in a crypt, and these beings could definitely have been born of the Prime.
Dragon #376, an official, core source, states on page 61 that Primal characters can receive their abilities from the Arch-fey. No luck needed, just facts.
Just so the audience isn't confused, the article Mutt is talking about is called "Realmslore: Sarifal" and is a Campaign Setting specific article. It is found on page 59 of the named Dragon issue.
Now, at first, I was willing to say, "well done." After all, that looked like a good source to me ... but now ... it's just too campaign specific. I mean, on adjoining pages it describes "moonwells" (yeah, moonwells
) as the way druids communicate with their primal guardians, the homes and lives of winged elves, and how shifters worship a "Cat Lord."In short, I'd be happy to hear any other examples you can find, but this can't be taken as design cannon for 4E. If we start delving into CS material, we're just going to find contridictions since those stories are meant to be different.
Well. There it is.
Sincerely,
Lord Dreadman
Dragon #376, an official, core source, states on page 61 that Primal characters can receive their abilities from the Arch-fey. No luck needed, just facts.
Also, isn't that place a sort of merger between the Feywild and the Natural world? I believe it uses the term "junction".
And the Earthmother that's in the article, the Archfey/Primal Spirit that grants primal powers; she's typed as a Natural being. It speaks about the Archfey granting primal powers as though it's a special case, it even give a short list of the one's who can do it.
I believe in a normal setting, when an Archfey grants someone powers; it's Arcane power, like how Feylocks are Arcane.
The Feywild is an echo of the natural world, so they are connected; but the Feywild is not the power of nature itself, and does not have a will of it's own. The Natural World is a living entity, it has a will of it's own and a lifeforce of it's own; Primal spirits are a part of the natural world's lifeforce and they serve it's needs, thats why Wilden would make more sense if they were Natural Primal Spirits given form.
Also, isn't that place a sort of merger between the Feywild and the Natural world? I believe it uses the term "junction".
And the Earthmother that's in the article, the Archfey/Primal Spirit that grants primal powers; she's typed as a Natural being. It speaks about the Archfey granting primal powers as though it's a special case, it even give a short list of the one's who can do it.
I believe in a normal setting, when an Archfey grants someone powers; it's Arcane power, like how Feylocks are Arcane.
The Feywild is an echo of the natural world, so they are connected; but the Feywild is not the power of nature itself, and does not have a will of it's own. The Natural World is a living entity, it has a will of it's own and a lifeforce of it's own; Primal spirits are a part of the natural world's lifeforce and they serve it's needs, thats why Wilden would make more sense if they were Natural Primal Spirits given form.
I don't think a hard distinction between 'fey' and 'natural' works really well. If it did, I don't think this would be a good or correct one. I've always viewed the Feywild as the source of all that was natural, wild, fierce and unpredictable about the wilderness, and thus very much the source of Primal power. Couldn't back it up with a page number or anything, and it probably isn't exactly what the writers intended, because my reading material switches from Exalted to 4E and back again, so my version of the Feywild is substantially more Wyld than most probably are. And I like it.
Then how about Manual of the Planes, where Arch-fey are described exactly the same way as Primal Spirits are? They are linked as far as the core is concerned.
I wouldn't say it's exactly the same way, they are about as similar to each other as the two planes they hail from are, the Feywild is an arcane mirroring of the Natural World, it's existence was inspired by the Primal nature of the Natural World, but it's nature is very much Arcane. Arch-fey are Arcane beings, there is a bit right below where you are talking about where it talks about how Arch-fey are the source of Arcane Fey pacts.
In a sense, there is really nothing natural about the Feywild, the Fey adore nature and there home mimics it's beauty, but the Primal World invented nature, it influences, inspires and in a sense empowers the magic of the Fey World to be an extreme imitation of nature, but it is very much not nature.
The Wilden claim to protect all that is natural, when they themselves are not. I think it would be much more simple, more appealing and allow more room for character concepts if the Wilden were just Primal Spirits given form to fight that which threatens the Natural World; because that's what many Primal Spirits are for, the Natural World doesn't need the Feywild looking after it when it has it's own power to draw from, and the natural world is a lot more likely to have such an extreme response to a threat like the far-realm because it is a living, adapting, wrathful force.
Then how about Manual of the Planes, where Arch-fey are described exactly the same way as Primal Spirits are? They are linked as far as the core is concerned.
Exactly right. They are described so similar as to almost be identicle ... except for one thing. When someone connects to the Primal spirits, we get a druid. When someone connects to the Arch-fey, we get a Fey Pack Warlock.
Do me a favor and find ONE druid working for any of the Arch Fey described in core material. On the other hand, several instances exist to describe warlocks working for Arch Fey. For example, the Player's Handbook. Another example is in Dragon 374 "Prince of Frost" (pg. 62).
I understand why people have the concept that Fey = Primal, after all, in 3E that's what it basically was. Unfortunately, people are going to have to let this thing go and understand that, while they can say whatever they want in their own games, core D&D says that Fey = Arcane. This is why Eladrin teleport and Gnomes become invisible. This is why EVERY source ties the Feywild to Arcane Magic.
So you found ONE source that ties Primal characters to Arch Fey (in a CS specific article)! So what?! EVERY other source says differently!
Okay ... that was a bit of a rant. I appologise. This "I forget the page number" thing is getting old, though. I have bothered to look things up for you; you can, certainly, extend me the same courtesy.
By the way, Mcnancy FTW.
Well. There it is.
Sincerely,
Lord Dreadman
The Wilden claim to protect all that is natural, when they themselves are not. I think it would be much more simple, more appealing and allow more room for character concepts if the Wilden were just Primal Spirits given form to fight that which threatens the Natural World; because that's what many Primal Spirits are for, the Natural World doesn't need the Feywild looking after it when it has it's own power to draw from, and the natural world is a lot more likely to have such an extreme response to a threat like the far-realm because it is a living, adapting, wrathful force.
Well, since it's a playtest article, did you write in and suggest this?
Exactly right. They are described so similar as to almost be identicle ... except for one thing. When someone connects to the Primal spirits, we get a druid. When someone connects to the Arch-fey, we get a Fey Pack Warlock.
Do me a favor and find ONE druid working for any of the Arch Fey described in core material. On the other hand, several instances exist to describe warlocks working for Arch Fey. For example, the Player's Handbook. Another example is in Dragon 374 "Prince of Frost" (pg. 62).
I understand why people have the concept that Fey = Primal, after all, in 3E that's what it basically was. Unfortunately, people are going to have to let this thing go and understand that, while they can say whatever they want in their own games, core D&D says that Fey = Arcane. This is why Eladrin teleport and Gnomes become invisible. This is why EVERY source ties the Feywild to Arcane Magic.
So you found ONE source that ties Primal characters to Arch Fey (in a CS specific article)! So what?! EVERY other source says differently!
Okay ... that was a bit of a rant. I appologise. This "I forget the page number" thing is getting old, though. I have bothered to look things up for you; you can, certainly, extend me the same courtesy.
By the way, Mcnancy FTW.
Well. There it is.
Sincerely,
Lord Dreadman
Please, do quote me where I said I forgot the page number, or asked for one. I'll wait.
The facts are there - there is a connection between the Fey and Primals, Primal Spirits can be Fey and vice versa, and the Fey can serve as a source for Primal abilities. Denying it is not only fruitless, it's counterproductive.
Please, do quote me where I said I forgot the page number, or asked for one. I'll wait.
The facts are there - there is a connection between the Fey and Primals, Primal Spirits can be Fey and vice versa, and the Fey can serve as a source for Primal abilities. Denying it is not only fruitless, it's counterproductive.
I know that it may be difficult for you to grasp, but, since you did provide page numbers for your argument, it stands to reason that I wasn't referring to you in that sentence. Just a thought. Go ahead and think it over. I'll wait.
As to the "proof" or "facts" that you've offered, you gave us a Campaign specific article and pointed out that Primal Spirits and Arch Fey are really similar. Frankly, I hardly find this to be a compelling argument. Let me rebuff your "facts":
There less of a connection between fey and primals than there is between natural creatures and primals. In fact, given that immortals have more background with primals than fey do, they have more connection than do fey, in my opinion. The fact that fey have an affinity for primal magic is where your argument ends, but, as it turns out, ANY race can use primal magic, regardless of plane, so I don't find that terribly convincing.
I don't know how else to say this, so: Primal spirits CANNOT be Arch Fey. From page 5 of the PH2: Primal spirits are "the spiritual expression of the world itself," not powerful fey who really like a certain season. In fact, the only fey who could be Primal spirits are mortals who join the primal spirits when they die, like, perhaps, an eladrin or gnome adventurer.
Hmmmm ... Arch Fey as sources of Primal abilities ... let me consider that ... you do make such a convincing argument there ... hmmm ... no ... no, I'm gonna call BS. On the other hand, I'm still waiting for your non-FR specific proof that this is the case. Or, oh wait, are we talking about your specific game, your own little fantasy world? Oh yeah, in that little space you have, go ahead and make a fey pact - oops, I mean primal agreement with the Lords of the Feywild. Good luck with that.
Sincerely,
Lord Dreadman
They need a more unique look:
I'm not sure about anyone else here, but this looks less unique to me.
Also like she's taken ecstacy.
-Wild + en? Foul + Spawn? Be more poetic in your word choice.
-another W? When will X and Q feel the love? ;)
Don't get me wrong; I prefer "Wilden" to "Killoren"; Maybe I'll just call them "green men" or "grove children" or some such in my world.
On another note, I don't know why people are arguing over which power source birthed the Feywild; one can channel Arcane power from all over the place, as the Warlock and Sorceror show; why should any world be made up of only one power source, and why would the Feywild not have Primal spirits?
I know that it may be difficult for you to grasp, but, since you did provide page numbers for your argument, it stands to reason that I wasn't referring to you in that sentence. Just a thought. Go ahead and think it over. I'll wait.
As to the "proof" or "facts" that you've offered, you gave us a Campaign specific article and pointed out that Primal Spirits and Arch Fey are really similar. Frankly, I hardly find this to be a compelling argument. Let me rebuff your "facts":
There less of a connection between fey and primals than there is between natural creatures and primals. In fact, given that immortals have more background with primals than fey do, they have more connection than do fey, in my opinion. The fact that fey have an affinity for primal magic is where your argument ends, but, as it turns out, ANY race can use primal magic, regardless of plane, so I don't find that terribly convincing.
I don't know how else to say this, so: Primal spirits CANNOT be Arch Fey. From page 5 of the PH2: Primal spirits are "the spiritual expression of the world itself," not powerful fey who really like a certain season. In fact, the only fey who could be Primal spirits are mortals who join the primal spirits when they die, like, perhaps, an eladrin or gnome adventurer.
Hmmmm ... Arch Fey as sources of Primal abilities ... let me consider that ... you do make such a convincing argument there ... hmmm ... no ... no, I'm gonna call BS. On the other hand, I'm still waiting for your non-FR specific proof that this is the case. Or, oh wait, are we talking about your specific game, your own little fantasy world? Oh yeah, in that little space you have, go ahead and make a fey pact - oops, I mean primal agreement with the Lords of the Feywild. Good luck with that.
Sincerely,
Lord Dreadman
You don't know how not to be insulting, do you? Fair enough, I'm fine with you acting like an angry child.
At any rate, FR is still core. It states that Arch-Fey can grant Primal Evocations. If you have a problem with that, don't use it. But is still official, still core.
At any rate, FR is still core.
Not really. In fact, FR and Eberron are the only things in 4th Edition that are explicitly not core.
It states that Arch-Fey can grant Primal Evocations
It states that one's on the list it provides can, because they're from some sort of "junction" between Toril and Auril (Or whatever they're called)
By the way, Mcnancy FTW
The current topic is not quite the dialog I was hoping for, but it's dialog, and dialog is good.
Well, since it's a playtest article, did you write in and suggest this?
It is done.
The most powerful of fey spirits are godlike avatars of their chosen aspect of nature. Some are noble eladrin so old and powerful that they have transcended the bounds of mortality, such as Tiandra, the Summer Queen, or the Prince of Frost. Some are the awakened spirits of mighty forests, mountains, or rivers, such as the Green Lord Oran or Scamander, the guardian spirit of the river of the same name. Others are the sentient incarnations of different types of animals, such as the Cat Lord or the Monkey King. A few arch-fey are fey of other races who have achieved great age and power—for example, the hag Baba Yaga or the satyr prince Hyrsam. Few of these beings are as strong as a deity or even a demon lord, but within their own demesnes, few other entities could hope to best them.
That sounds more than a little like the natural spirits that are the Primal power source. And it's core.
That sounds more than a little like the natural spirits that are the Primal power source. And it's core.
If one is going to use that as proof that Fey are the source of Primal power, then one could also say that it proves that they are gods, because it uses the word godlike, and thus they're are the source of Divine power.
How can people ignore all the parts of the PH2 that explains how the Primal power source works, not to mention ignore that the power given to mortals by Fey is Arcane power (Fey Pact)
If one is going to use that as proof that Fey are the source of Primal power, then one could also say that it proves that they are gods, because it uses the word godlike, and thus they're are the source of Divine power.
Very flimsy argument. That word refers to the magnitude of their power. The nature of their power, on the other hand, makes them very much the same thing as these 'primal spirits'.
How can people ignore all the parts of the PH2 that explains how the Primal power source works, not to mention ignore that the power given to mortals by Fey is Arcane power (Fey Pact)
Yeah, you're right. Because the differences between two power sources are always so well defined. For instance, all Arcane magic isn't actually Divine magic in a setting with a god of magic because... something. Similarly, a god of nature doesn't govern the Primal power source for well-explained and definite reasons. And feats of physical strength, dexterity, toughness, or skill are definitely limited to the Martial power source only.
Anyway, I'd like to see a page number on that claim that the fey are limited to providing only one sort of power.
Very flimsy argument. That word refers to the magnitude of their power. The nature of their power, on the other hand, makes them very much the same thing as these 'primal spirits'.
Exactly my point.
The nature of their power is imitation, it's just made to look like the same thing; don't worry, your not the first person to be tricked by the Fey.
Yeah, you're right. Because the differences between two power sources are always so well defined. For instance, all Arcane magic isn't actually Divine magic in a setting with a god of magic because... something. Similarly, a god of nature doesn't govern the Primal power source for well-explained and definite reasons. And feats of physical strength, dexterity, toughness, or skill are definitely limited to the Martial power source only.
They're plenty defined, your just reading what you want to, allow me to explain how the entire multiverse works to you then: Arcane magic does not come from the gods, it's the fabric of power that flows through all things, even the elemental chaos(which was around before the gods). the gods of nature don't govern the Primal power source because the Divine spark that created life on the Natural world is only a part of the process, the Gods' power represents that connection but there is very much more to the Primal world that is beyond the gods' influence, the Natural World is just as much a child of the Elemental Chaos as it is a child of the Gods.Anyway, I'd like to see a page number on that claim that the fey are limited to providing only one sort of power.
I'm afraid you have a lot more reading to do than just one page my friend. Stop trying prove something, and actually read some of how this setting works.
No. If that's the argument you want to make, you have to put down some references.
Yeah, no. You don't get to do that. "I'm right, because the setting works the way I say it does, and I don't have to bother backing up my statement because I'm just cool like that."
No. If that's the argument you want to make, you have to put down some references.
Well I wouldn't have to post an argument if you had references to back up your statements now would I?
You argue(this is a "argument" after all) that power sources are not well defined, if that's the argument you want to make, you have to put down some references.
The arcane = Feywild debate really breaks down with the sorceror, who is either draconic (and its mentioned dragons are partially elemental), chaotic (tied to the slaads and such of the elemental chaos), storm (more loosely elemental, though there seem to be alot of stormy primordials), and cosmic (attuned to the stars which are in the astral sea). The sorceror, being a person who is naturally talented in arcane power...draws nothing at all from the feywild.
Well I wouldn't have to post an argument if you had references to back up your statements now would I?
You argue(this is a "argument" after all) that power sources are not well defined, if that's the argument you want to make, you have to put down some references.
My argument is that the definite boundaries of these power sources don't exist. There are no page numbers, because no one has come right out and said "we aren't spelling out where one ends and the next begins." If you want to argue that such things do exist, you're going to have to provide some evidence. I began with citing the Manual of the Planes and its outright statement that archfey become avatars of nature. Your turn.
You can come up with whatever fluff you want to justify your position, but it's not official.
Arcane: Drawing on magical energy that permeates the
cosmos,
PH 173:
Every spell is part of some far superior
working, evoking just a minuscule fraction of that
ultimate formula... the study of the ultimate arcane
formula, the Demispell, whose hyperplanar existence
encompasses all the lesser spells there ever were or
ever will be.
PH 156:
Wizards tap the
true power that permeates the cosmos,
MotP 12: on how the world is product of both divine and elemental
The world is
therefore the fulcrum where elemental forces and
divine forces meet.
MotP 62: on how the elemental chaos predates gods
Elemental Chaos is the raw material
of creation, that from which the universe arose.Untouched by the stabilizing divine influence that
formed the world into a more or less permanent state,
PH2 5: on Primal Spirits having been a product of the earth and not some god (just read the whole page)
In the last days of the war, a new force made itself
known in the cosmos: the spiritual expression of the
world itself. These primal spirits declared an end to
the conflict, asserting that the world would no longer
be a battleground for the two opposing forces. The
gods and the primordials were banished to their
home planes, and the primal spirits of the world
decreed a balance: The world would remain a place
where matter and spirit mingled freely, where life
and death proceeded in an orderly cycle, where the
seasons changed in their unending wheel without
interference. The gods and the primordials could still
influence the world, but they could not rule it.... Characters who use the primal power source
stand firmly rooted in the world, between the divine
power of the Astral Sea and the primordial churning
of the Elemental Chaos.... Many primal characters do hold the gods in great
respect. Without the gods’ intervention, the primordials
would have left the world in an ever-changing
state not much different from the Elemental Chaos,
hostile to natural life... As god of the
wilderness, Melora is sometimes seen as an ally of the
primal spirits.
So as you can see, the Gods' relationship with primal and arcane power is quite defined. Arcane power is something that permeates even in places where the gods have no power or influence. And Primal Spirits see nature gods only as allies and not as makers.
Here's some stuff on how the Feywild is not at all natural.
PH2 5: on Primal Spirit's relation to Fey
They have some affinity
with the native inhabitants of the Feywild, who share
their love and respect for the natural world.
There you have it right there, they like each other, thats it.
PH 171: on the Feywild's arcane nature
This links your use of arcane power firmly to the
Feywild
MotP 32:
In this world, arcane power thrums
through every tree and rock. All existence is magical.
MotP 34:
Mortals come to this perilous realm to tap into the
arcane powers that course like unseen rivers of magic
through the wild landscape.
MotP 38: Arch-fey manifest ,ore than just aspects of nature
Sparked by the arcane influence within the Feywild,
some archfey manifest more abstract qualities than
seasons or living nature. Many are associated with
dreams, darkness, stars, twilight, dusk, and other such
nocturnal phenomena,
MotP: they ain't natural 6
heroes might encounter creatures native
to other planes, such as the fey panther, the magma
claw, or the spined devil. At higher levels, heroes
encounter progressively more powerful planar beings
abroad in the mortal world—beings such as vrocks,
efreets, or sorrowsworn. Each is clearly an outsider, a
creature that does not arise within the natural order.
I began with citing the Manual of the Planes and its outright statement that archfey become avatars of nature. Your turn.
You mean "avatars of their chosen aspects of nature" the aspects of nature that are "echoed" or "paralleled" in the Feywild that they "love and respect"
Why does any of this argument matter? Whether or not the Feywild is primal in nature is up to the group, in the end, regardless of what the books say. As does the label of "Natural" or "Fey." It does not effect the race in any way. So, WHY are we arguing about it?
on how the world is product of both divine and elemental
on how the elemental chaos predates gods
Okay, so... this matters why?
Why is the Warlock the only one who draws his Arcane power from the Fey, and equally likely to draw power from devils, the stars, the Shadowfell, or "the remnants of powerful forces and entities that once exercised great authority or demonstrated awful capabilities"? If the power of the fey is inherently arcane due to the evidence of one class, then there's no need for a Shadow power source, is there? And the Vestige pact being Arcane has some very bizarre implications in your strange construct.
Yes, you illustrated the point that magic is everywhere, and the Feywild is no exception. That helps your point how?
on Primal Spirits having been a product of the earth and not some god (just read the whole page)
Notes a close relationship between Primal and Divine, and fails to explore other relationships. It's a quick summary.
There you have it right there, they like each other, thats it.
As a trait of the whole plane. Not surprising, considering how incredibly close their relationship is, what with the greatest of them becoming avatars of nature and all.
So as you can see, the Gods' relationship with primal and arcane power is quite defined. Arcane power is something that permeates even in places where the gods have no power or influence. And Primal Spirits see nature gods only as allies and not as makers.
Yeah, I don't think the word "defined" means what you think it means. "Sketchily implied" is a bit closer to the truth. Awful hard to have gods of magic and nature when they can't have any sort of control over magic or nature, isn't it?
And no one ever said that the fey aren't more than natural.
Would you consider splitting it off into it's own thread so the Wilden thread can continue uninterrupted?
The Wilden;
Pros:
plant based race
fey origin
a defensive reaction to the Far Realms invasion.
Cons:
needs a new name
needs defining artwork
Bel
Why is the Warlock the only one who draws his Arcane power from the Fey, and equally likely to draw power from devils, the stars, the Shadowfell, or "the remnants of powerful forces and entities that once exercised great authority or demonstrated awful capabilities"? If the power of the fey is inherently arcane due to the evidence of one class, then there's no need for a Shadow power source, is there?
First of all Warlock is not th only one, the Wild magic sorcerer has ties to it and I took one of those quote from Wizard of the Spiral Tower. Secondly, because in the scope of all things Arcane, the Fey are only a small portion. Also, the Dark Pact does not draw it's power from the Shadowfell, It was invented by the Drow because they were too lazy to learn wizardry.
Yes, you illustrated the point that magic is everywhere, and the Feywild is no exception. That helps your point how?
You are one who said Power sources are not defined with a beginning or an end, I was trying to clear that up for you.
Notes a close relationship between Primal and Divine, and fails to explore other relationships.
READ THE FREAKING CHAPTER AND STOP ACTING LIKE YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT IT SAYING, If there is any chance of you getting a clue about this setting, you are going to have to forget all this 3E nonsense and whatever other ideas your stuck on and read about how D&D does things on your own and stop telling people to read it for you. The chapter says that the Spirits of nature were spawned out of defiance to the warring of the Gods and Primordials, their relationship to the Gods is the same as their relationship with Primordials.
Awful hard to have gods of magic and nature when they can't have any sort of control over magic or nature, isn't it?
Mortals don't seem to have any trouble having control over it, Wizards and Shamans control it all the time. It's one thing to control, it's another to have complete ownership of. Corellon taught mortals the art of magic, this is why he's the god of magic, but he is not the source of magic itself.
As a trait of the whole plane. Not surprising, considering how incredibly close their relationship is, what with the greatest of them becoming avatars of nature and all.
You have begun to paint yourself into a corner, this is a statement of pure closed-mindedness; we have given you more than enough information to prove that Fey and Primal are not same thing, I can't help you any further so I'm just going to have to ignore your ramblings.
Back on topic:
I think the Wilden should be more defined by their opposition to the far-realm, they should contrast aberrant creatures as much as possible; aberrants are unsettling to look at and so Wilden should be almost comforting to look at, like how a peaceful nature setting is calming to the senses.
...The Wild magic sorcerer has ties to [fey]...
No. There is nothing right about this statement. Wild Magic has ties to the Elemental Chaos, and that's about it.
My favorite bit is how he quoted from page 34 of the Manual of the Planes about the arcane power, deliberately ignoring the paragraph just before about the plane's relationship to the natural world. That's just flat dishonesty.
He means this one:
Some eladrin sages claim that the Feywild is the dream of the natural world itself. The Feywild is in many ways indistinguishable from the natural world. However, like a dream, the Feywild is a dangerous, vibrant reflection of the familiar. The geography of the Feywild parallels that of the mortal realm, if loosely. Various mountains, rivers, and seas on the natural world are found on the Feywild. However, the distances between landmarks in the Feywild—and the landmarks themselves—are often distorted.
It is not accurate to say that the Feywild is the plane of arcane magic (The Elemental Chaos, Feywild, and Shadowfell are all identified by the arcana skill), for arcane sources are numerous and diverse. Nor is it correct to say it is super-nature, for there is certainly a distinct magical influence. I would guess it is more accurate to describe the feywild as nature enhanced by arcane, brightening the bright, darkening the dark, freezing the cold and warming the hot. It is the extreme reflection of the natural world, just as the shadowfell is the dull, sapped, and lessened reflection. Nature on drugs, if you will.
Some eladrin sages claim that the Feywild is the dream of the natural world itself. The Feywild is in many ways indistinguishable from the natural world. However, like a dream, the Feywild is a dangerous, vibrant reflection of the familiar. The geography of the Feywild parallels that of the mortal realm, if loosely. Various mountains, rivers, and seas on the natural world are found on the Feywild. However, the distances between landmarks in the Feywild—and the landmarks themselves—are often distorted.
Okay, so a blurry picture of a battery can power electric devices? I don't feel like I have to point out how retarded that notion is, but some people can apparently make an analogous claim with a straight face.
Okay, so a blurry picture of a battery can power electric devices? I don't feel like I have to point out how retarded that notion is, but some people can apparently make an analogous claim with a straight face.
I don't think you quite grasp the intent of this passage.
Okay, so a blurry picture of a battery can power electric devices? I don't feel like I have to point out how retarded that notion is, but some people can apparently make an analogous claim with a straight face.
It's not a blurry battery; distorted is used in a metaphorical sense, not the literal sense
It's just a different, maybe a stronger battery. Like instead of a AAA, it's a AA.
But the point is that Archfey don't start off as Primal Spirits and are not analogous to them on a whole. Some of them just join with their CHOSEN aspect of nature (as in they picked it themselves) so thorougly they transcend into becoming Primal Spirits.
Heck there's a Epic Destiny for becoming a Primal Spirit! A powerful Archfey that is also a primal spirit could just be an Eladrin who was so powerful he managed to have TWO Epic Destiny at once!!!
No. There is nothing right about this statement. Wild Magic has ties to the Elemental Chaos, and that's about it.
Your right, I must have gotten it mixed up with Swordmage, it's doe's not change that I'm right about the Warlock not being the only Arcane class that has ties to the Feywild.
My favorite bit is how he quoted from page 34 of the Manual of the Planes about the arcane power, deliberately ignoring the paragraph just before about the plane's relationship to the natural world. That's just flat dishonesty.
Actually I was thinking about using that quote as well; a dream of the natural world is a good way of putting it, because a dream is not real, a dream is a mockery of reality and the Feywild is a mockery of the Natural World. The same things that quote says about the Feywild could be said about the Shadowfell, because the Shadowfell is also just an echo of the Mortal World.
It's one thing to distract from the topic with these notions of yours, but don't try to attack me just because you've ran out of options
does anyone have any art suggestions?
Okay, so you're having a 'spirited' discussion on the 'nature' of the cosmos.(all puns intended)
Would you consider splitting it off into it's own thread so the Wilden thread can continue uninterrupted?
The Wilden;
Pros:
plant based race
fey origin
a defensive reaction to the Far Realms invasion.
Cons:
needs a new name
needs defining artwork
Bel
Actually, I'd kind of put the 'plant based race' bit in the Con column.
Actually I was thinking about using that quote as well; a dream of the natural world is a good way of putting it, because a dream is not real, a dream is a mockery of reality and the Feywild is a mockery of the Natural World. The same things that quote says about the Feywild could be said about the Shadowfell, because the Shadowfell is also just an echo of the Mortal World.
In a way, you're right. Nature++ is not the same thing as Nature at all. Just because they have so much in common that they actually frequently overlap when the Nature is Natural enough to be Fey, that doesn't mean they're actually the same. Just because the examples of Nature's guardian spirits that already exist in the game, like the dryad, are Fey, that's no reason to assume that further creatures of the same type would also be Fey.
It's one thing to distract from the topic with these notions of yours,
Because the question of whether or not Fey spirits and Primal ones were the same thing was raised by me, and not in the OP at all, right? Waaaait.
but don't try to attack me just because you've ran out of options
Yes. I ran out of options. Either you're being deliberately dishonest, or amazingly obtuse, and I have no idea how to actually get this across to you.
Anybody ever saw Spirited Away? Haku was the spirit of a river that no longer existed, but he still existed. I think it would be cool if Wilden were similar, if they were the soul of a piece of the natural world (like an ancient tree or a wooded hill, etc) that got destroyed and as a reaction formed a body in the Feywild instead of departing toward the Shadowfell.
Sweet idea.
Anybody ever saw Spirited Away? Haku was the spirit of a river that no longer existed, but he still existed. I think it would be cool if Wilden were similar, if they were the soul of a piece of the natural world (like an ancient tree or a wooded hill, etc) that got destroyed and as a reaction formed a body in the Feywild instead of departing toward the Shadowfell.
I really like the Idea of them once being a part of nature that was destroyed, that's cool. They could actually be born from the very spot they once inhabited; when a river, grove, mountain or something like that is destroyed by unnatural forces that part of the World's life force is given a new form and a will of it's own, sometimes they're dark vengeful beings and sometimes they retain their peaceful nature and only wish to prevent it from happening again.
But in the same spot in the world is also a cool idea. There appearance could also show signs of what happened, like burn marks when a forest was burned down and so on.
In a way, you're right. Nature++ is not the same thing as Nature at all. Just because they have so much in common that they actually frequently overlap when the Nature is Natural enough to be Fey, that doesn't mean they're actually the same.
Where are you getting the Idea that Fey nature is some how more Natural than the Natural world's nature?
Nature++, you mean like a dire bear? because that's a natural creature. Or do you mean like a Cyclops, because I fail to see how Cyclopses are awsome embodiments of nature.
Just because the examples of Nature's guardian spirits that already exist in the game, like the dryad, are Fey, that's no reason to assume that further creatures of the same type would also be Fey.
Dryad protect nature, yes, they love nature; and there is no reason why Wilden couldn't be Fey who love nature and want to protect it, other than it's just redundant. But Dryads are still unatural alien creatures, and so are Wilden at this point.
I think you are getting nature confused with the Natural World, just because the Feywild has a lot of nature in it does not make it Natural.
You have interpreted one or two sentences wrongly, and refuse to acknowledge all the contradictary material; the Fey are not Primal in nature, they are Arcane in nature, the Feylock alone should be proof enough for you.
Back on topic:
I relate Primal Spirits with Kami; and the Idea of Wilden once being a part of nature, like a river or something, just makes me wish they were Primal Spirits even more than before.
One thing for sure I would have them consider the Primal Spirits as their brethren.
Where are you getting the Idea that Fey nature is some how more Natural than the Natural world's nature?
Manual of the Planes. Read the whole section. In the deep wilderness, where everything is still untouched by humanoids, the Feywild and the natural world overlap.
Dryad protect nature, yes, they love nature; and there is no reason why Wilden couldn't be Fey who love nature and want to protect it, other than it's just redundant. But Dryads are still unatural alien creatures, and so are Wilden at this point.
If dryads are unnatural, then every possible spirit is. There is no such thing as something more natural than a dryad. It's only "unnatural" in that it isn't an actual plant or animal. I mean... Dryad.
I think you are getting nature confused with the Natural World, just because the Feywild has a lot of nature in it does not make it Natural.
That's not even close to what I've said.
You have interpreted one or two sentences wrongly, and refuse to acknowledge all the contradictary material; the Fey are not Primal in nature, they are Arcane in nature, the Feylock alone should be proof enough for you.
It's not contradictory or misunderstood at all. The Feywild is everything you're willing to admit it is, as well as the stuff you're saying it's not.
Back on topic:
We're discussing something you brought up in the OP. We're very on topic.
Maybe we should drop Wilden being only plants and have a race of incarnated Kami that can have river themed powers or mountain themed ones... though at that point it would feel too much like Primal Genasis ^^; the aspects are pretty cool so maybe its just the appearance that could change. The River and Mountain variations don't look the same but each has the three aspects within them.
Yeah pretty much, I like the aspects when you think about them as Kami. I like the idea of them shifting from a beautiful friendly nature spirit to a dark angry nature spirit (like if they're plant like, they would become black and scraggly like a burned up tree)
We're discussing something you brought up in the OP. We're very on topic
CelticMutt was the first to say that Fey = Primal Spirit. At this point you seem to be the only one who thinks that's an idea worth defending.
I think they would be cooler if they're primal spirits; manifestations of the earth's body and soul, nature's will given form that has it's own thoughts and personality but is still connected to all other spirits of the earth. something more symbolic and at the same time conceptually flexable.
Sound familiar?
And yes, it is pretty much played out. The only thing separating the two concepts is your own obstinate refusal.
Sound familiar?
And yes, it is pretty much played out. The only thing separating the two concepts is your own obstinate refusal.
What are you talking about? What does that have to with anything? I was talking about the changes that I would make to Wilden.
CelticMutt was the first person to say that wouldn't be a change, he was the one who called the relationship into question, not me. and now you are the only one still making it an issue, everyone else seems to be on the same page, thus you are holding up the discussion by questioning what everyone else knows and attacking people for trying to explain it to you.
So unless you have any real proof to back up your claims, I suggest you let the topic die.
Back on topic:
does anyone have any art suggestions?
Well, the wilden in the playtest article looked a bit insectoid to me. Like a praying mantis. I'd like to see a mix of insect and plant features in the art when the PHB3 comes out. That way they'd represent not only flora but also fauna.
Orcs manliest
Half-orcs manlier
Humans- humany
Half-elves girlier
Elves girliest
Eladrin Super-duper girliest
Wilden Super-duper-mini-cooper girliest
What are you talking about? What does that have to with anything? I was talking about the changes that I would make to Wilden.
CelticMutt was the first person to say that wouldn't be a change, he was the one who called the relationship into question, not me. and now you are the only one still making it an issue, everyone else seems to be on the same page, thus you are holding up the discussion by questioning what everyone else knows and attacking people for trying to explain it to you.
So unless you have any real proof to back up your claims, I suggest you let the topic die.
You made the statement I quoted above in your opening post. CelticMutt rebutted. Addressing a statement in the OP is not bringing up something new. If you didn't want to bring it up for discussion, you shouldn't have posted it on a forum.
I'm having problems seeing this chorus of voices in agreement with you, Mcnancy, so don't act like I'm the lone outlying naysayer here. Nobody else is arguing your point. With good reason.
I really don't know why I bothered looking in other books for justification, as the simple truth is within the Wilden race itself. The devs created it to be a Primal-themed race. And it is Fey. If you argue that it's not Primal because it's Fey, then you're claiming that you know better than the devs. Is that it? Do you know more about the setting than the people who wrote it?
/thread
You made the statement I quoted above in your opening post. CelticMutt rebutted. Addressing a statement in the OP is not bringing up something new. If you didn't want to bring it up for discussion, you shouldn't have posted it on a forum.
Bring what up for discussion, exactly?
I'm having problems seeing this chorus of voices in agreement with you, Mcnancy, so don't act like I'm the lone outlying naysayer here. Nobody else is arguing your point. With good reason.
Allow me.
But the point is that Archfey don't start off as Primal Spirits and are not analogous to them on a whole. Some of them just join with their CHOSEN aspect of nature (as in they picked it themselves) so thorougly they transcend into becoming Primal Spirits.
Okay, so a blurry picture of a battery can power electric devices? I don't feel like I have to point out how retarded that notion is, but some people can apparently make an analogous claim with a straight face.
Nor is it correct to say it is super-nature, for there is certainly a distinct magical influence. I would guess it is more accurate to describe the feywild as nature enhanced by arcane, brightening the bright, darkening the dark, freezing the cold and warming the hot. It is the extreme reflection of the natural world, just as the shadowfell is the dull, sapped, and lessened reflection. Nature on drugs, if you will.
I actually agree with Mcnancy's explanation of the cosmos and powers, its mostly whats said in the DMG. The arcane is more his interpretation, as it is never really stated what it is (perhaps maybe at the start of arcane power which i just get through the awesomeness of the CB), though i would say his interpretation is fairly apt.
There less of a connection between fey and primals than there is between natural creatures and primals. In fact, given that immortals have more background with primals than fey do, they have more connection than do fey, in my opinion. The fact that fey have an affinity for primal magic is where your argument ends, but, as it turns out, ANY race can use primal magic, regardless of plane, so I don't find that terribly convincing.
I don't know how else to say this, so: Primal spirits CANNOT be Arch Fey. From page 5 of the PH2: Primal spirits are "the spiritual expression of the world itself," not powerful fey who really like a certain season. In fact, the only fey who could be Primal spirits are mortals who join the primal spirits when they die, like, perhaps, an eladrin or gnome adventurer.
]I really don't know why I bothered looking in other books for justification, as the simple truth is within the Wilden race itself. The devs created it to be a Primal-themed race. And it is Fey. If you argue that it's not Primal because it's Fey, then you're claiming that you know better than the devs. Is that it? Do you know more about the setting than the people who wrote it?
The Wilden are Primal themed yes, most Fey things are Primal themed, but that does not mean they're Primal. The Wilden have an affinity for Primal power, but they're not born of it. Where in the Wilden race itself does it say that they themselves are Primal?
Actually, I'd kind of put the 'plant based race' bit in the Con column.
Why? Of all the PC races only the Wilden would be plant based, which is better than another human type, or as some claim another elven type. It's all about variety, right?
Bel
Why? Of all the PC races only the Wilden would be plant based, which is better than another human type, or as some claim another elven type. It's all about variety, right?
Bel
It's subjective, really. Some people don't want to stray too far from the 'classics', and some people find the classics to be tiresome and worn out.
Anyway, to answer the title question, I do know someone who's quite excited about the Wilden ... which didn't surprise me, as he's a huge primal-source fan and a fairly fervent environmentalist.
CelticMutt was the first to say that Fey = Primal Spirit. At this point you seem to be the only one who thinks that's an idea worth defending.
No, I think it's worth defending. I just got tired of arguing with a brick wall. :P
Bring what up for discussion, exactly?
The subject you're trying to say is off-topic. You brought it up initially.
Allow me.
Oh, right. How silly of me. Five pages of posts, and only those that agree with you count. Where are these posters now?
The Wilden are Primal themed yes, most Fey things are Primal themed, but that does not mean they're Primal. The Wilden have an affinity for Primal power, but they're not born of it. Where in the Wilden race itself does it say that they themselves are Primal?
most Fey things are Primal themed,
MOST FEY THINGS ARE PRIMAL THEMED,
Gee, you don't think that might imply some sort of connection, do you?
The subject you're trying to say is off-topic. You brought it up initially.
What exactly do you think that subject is? And what does it have to do with my OP?
Oh, right. How silly of me. Five pages of posts, and only those that agree with you count. Where are these posters now?
um... count towards what exactly?
I'm having problems seeing this chorus of voices in agreement with you, Mcnancy, so don't act like I'm the lone outlying naysayer here. Nobody else is arguing your point. With good reason
.
You said you were having trouble finding people who agreed with me, I was only trying to help by pointing out some.
Gee, you don't think that might imply some sort of connection, do you?
I never said their was no connection, In fact, I have posted several quotes from D&D books that talk about how they are connected.
The Arcane Feywild imitates the Primal Natural World, Fey admire and mimic Primal beings, A Fey hero might have a Primal class because of the affinity that Fey often have for the Primal Spirits and the Natural World, and even in some cases they might even become Primal Beings due to their service and love of the Earth.
But they are not the same thing, Primal Spirits are not Fey, the terms have never been interchanged in the chapters that speak about them, in fact they're spoken about as two different things
If you truly believe that Arch-fey and Primal Spirits are synonymous, then why on that piece in the FR article, the one about the juncture between the FR fey realm and the natural world and how the Arch-fey from that juncture could grant Primal invocations) were there two separate lists of patron Spirits and Fey, one listing patron Arch-fey and the other listing patron Primal Spirits; Why was there two lists if they're the same thing?
I don't think you quite grasp the intent of this passage.
I grasp it just fine. I just didn't add the things I wanted to believe to the interpretation.
It's not a blurry battery; distorted is used in a metaphorical sense, not the literal sense
It's just a different, maybe a stronger battery. Like instead of a AAA, it's a AA.
No, it's a blurry photo of a battery. It's a distorted reflection of the world and nowhere does it say anything analogous to a primal spirit exists anywhere in the Feywild. The Feywild has archfey and I'm pretty sure that's it (aside from the other, less powerful fey). Archfey are never stated to be able to grant anything but a pact with warlocks. The picture, in other words, looks like a battery but is completely devoid of the power the real thing brings to the table.
If you truly believe that Arch-fey and Primal Spirits are synonymous, then why on that piece in the FR article, the one about the juncture between the FR fey realm and the natural world and how the Arch-fey from that juncture could grant Primal invocations) were there two separate lists of patron Spirits and Fey, one listing patron Arch-fey and the other listing patron Primal Spirits; Why was there two lists if they're the same thing?
... Your reading comprehension issues apparently extend past the books. We are not saying they are absolutely, completely, 100% synonymous. We, or at least I, am saying that some are, some aren't, but enough are for there to be a major connection. More importantly, I am saying that Arch-Fey that are not Primal Spirits are fully capable of bestowing Primal evocations.
I grasp it just fine. I just didn't add the things I wanted to believe to the interpretation.
No, it's a blurry photo of a battery. It's a distorted reflection of the world and nowhere does it say anything analogous to a primal spirit exists anywhere in the Feywild. The Feywild has archfey and I'm pretty sure that's it (aside from the other, less powerful fey). Archfey are never stated to be able to grant anything but a pact with warlocks. The picture, in other words, looks like a battery but is completely devoid of the power the real thing brings to the table.
Except, you know, in the sources that state otherwise.
I grasp it just fine. I just didn't add the things I wanted to believe to the interpretation.
Except, you know, in the sources that state otherwise.
Other than the bit in that FR article in Dragon, what are you talking about?
Because yes, that article gave a short list of specific Arch-fey from a specific place in a specific setting.
But I think Matukal was speaking in general; there is always a few exceptions to the rules.
We are not saying they are absolutely, completely, 100% synonymous.
So what exactly are the differences?
Other than the bit in that FR article in Dragon, what are you talking about?
The ... article ... ? Since, you know, it's still core. Everything is core, except setting info. The ability for Arch-fey to bestow Primal evocations is not setting info.
Except, you know, in the sources that state otherwise.
Back this up. None of the quotes you already provided could be rationally interpreted in the way you claim.
The ability for Arch-fey to bestow Primal evocations is not setting info.
It's in a setting-specific book. Everything in it is setting-specific unless otherwise noted. Or, apparently if you say it is, but I'm hesitant to believe that.
Back this up. None of the quotes you already provided could be rationally interpreted in the way you claim.
Actually, they can in fact rationally be interpreted that way, since that is exactly what I quoted said.
It's in a setting-specific book. Everything in it is setting-specific unless otherwise noted. Or, apparently if you say it is, but I'm hesitant to believe that.
Article, not book. And no, not everything in it is setting specific.
Actually, they can in fact rationally be interpreted that way, since that is exactly what I quoted said.
Article, not book. And no, not everything in it is setting specific.
Do you not like substantiating your claims or do you believe anybody is dumb enough to just take your word for it? I await your reply.
Do you not like substantiating your claims or do you believe anybody is dumb enough to just take your word for it? I await your reply.
I've substantiated it. You refuse to listen. I don't feel like bothering further.
I've substantiated it. You refuse to listen. I don't feel like bothering further.
*Facepalm*
I'm not so sure I'm the one being difficult here. It's entirely reasonable to demand to be convinced and I'm not convinced. Any problem you have with critical thinking is not my fault.
*Facepalm*
I'm not so sure I'm the one being difficult here. It's entirely reasonable to demand to be convinced and I'm not convinced. Any problem you have with critical thinking is not my fault.
See, your problem is you don't want to be convinced. I tried, it didn't go through, I'm not trying again. I don't care. I'm satisfied with knowing I'm right and that the books and articles prove it. You believe otherwise? Whatever. Just don't whine when WotC continually puts out things like the Wilden that prove me right.
See, your problem is you don't want to be convinced. I tried, it didn't go through, I'm not trying again. I don't care. I'm satisfied with knowing I'm right and that the books and articles prove it. You believe otherwise? Whatever. Just don't whine when WotC continually puts out things like the Wilden that prove me right.
Yeah, I think no matter what we do, these guys are going to continue making distinctions WotC never intended, and then complaining when things end up on the wrong side of an imaginary divide. Shall we threadquit?
Yeah, I think no matter what we do, these guys are going to continue making distinctions WotC never intended, and then complaining when things end up on the wrong side of an imaginary divide. Shall we threadquit?
Sounds good to me.
So what is true for FR is not necessarily true for Core. You just can't take something like that out of context.
I'm wondering if Wilden will get some kind of camouflage rules.
Bel
See, your problem is you don't want to be convinced.
Wrong. The only thing you do is say "I've substantiated it" over and over like saying it more makes it more true. To you there is no possibility that I may have, you know, missed it. Oh no. Nor is it that the problem just might be on your side. If you have documented your claim, you should have no problem directing me to it, but apparently you cannot muster enough respect for your fellow man to consider that his ignorance of your proposed truth might be involuntary.
Your behavior would get you laughed out of any academic circle.
I'm wondering if Wilden will get some kind of camouflage rules.
Bel
They get a +2 to stealth, that's good enough for me, I wouldn't want too much of the race's mechanics spent on camouflage
Does anyone else think Voyage of the Ancients is a little to circumstantial to be useful.
They get a +2 to stealth, that's good enough for me, I wouldn't want too much of the race's mechanics spent on camouflage
Does anyone else think Voyage of the Ancients is a little to circumstantial to be useful.
They made a power for each type of attack (Ranged, Melee, Area/Close). So no, I don't. If you don't often make those types of attacks, you don't often go into the ancient form.