"One minatures you can see, plus 4 you can't! Isn't that awesome?!"
WoTC cracked with characters, but they're still forcing you to buy your monsters at random. So don't, go to other companies that make miniatures.
Case and point: Stop buying random miniatures and WoTC will stop producing them.
I wouldn't say no to something like
"Goblin army in a box: featuring a bunch of various goblins"
or the phb heros thing they are doing except that apparently the new minis look pretty bad.
yeah, random is a drag.
I wouldn't say no to something like
"Goblin army in a box: featuring a bunch of various goblins"
or the phb heros thing they are doing except that apparently the new minis look pretty bad.
Not to mention that a few of them are old minis rereleased. [cough]half-elf bard my ass[/cough]
Personally I hate them too, but you won't see me buying any prepainted plastic no matter how great the technology becomes. And I'm not saying the above to tell you to buy random miniatures even though you don't like them- just to add some context. Obviously you shouldn't buy products you don't want. But if your goal is to convince WotC to sell specifically packaged monster miniatures, there are some financial realities that you should take into account.
yeah, random is a drag.
you can buy single minis online and at stores and get the ones you want.
you can buy single minis online and at stores and get the ones you want.
*at extremely inflated prices.
Random miniatures are cheaper and more convenient to sell due to inventory control issues, and the benefits of randomization grow as the product line grows. I imagine that if WotC felt it would be more profitable to sell specific blisters, that's what they'd do. But they apparently feel that they will do better under the present system.
Personally I hate them too, but you won't see me buying any prepainted plastic no matter how great the technology becomes. And I'm not saying the above to tell you to buy random miniatures even though you don't like them- just to add some context. Obviously you shouldn't buy products you don't want. But if your goal is to convince WotC to sell specifically packaged monster miniatures, there are some financial realities that you should take into account.
The financial reality is that this is an issue of greed. By selling random miniatures Hasbro produces more profit because they keep you buying until you get the ones you want. It's a marketing tool, and a deceptive one bend on using the customers. As long as customers lay down and take it, it will keep being used.
*at extremely inflated prices.
These prices are not inflated.
http://store02.prostores.com/servlet/auggiesgames/Categories?category=D%26D+minis
The financial reality is that this is an issue of viability. By selling random miniatures, (WotC) can actually sell them at a reasonable price. It's a strategy that keeps WotC and LGSes everywhere from overflowing with unwanted, unsellable miniatures stock. This way, WotC can actually produce a wide variety of interesting (and sometimes uninteresting) minis and not have to charge $10 each.
FIFY.
It's a marketing tool, and a deceptive one bend on using the customers.
Okay... i think we're drifting off into conspiracy land.
How is it deceptive when they market them and announce them as random packed minis? If it is deceptive (big if) there's a ton of trading card companies that have a lot to answer for...Okay... i think we're drifting off into conspiracy land.
Good point, I used to collect baseball cards so i was deceived by the conspiring card companies when i never got a complet set! :D
Again there not making you buy them and after a month or two there will be single minis in the stores and online that one can buy.
Okay... i think we're drifting off into conspiracy land.
Not really, just basic marketing.
Collectibility and the nerd's obessive gotta-have-'em-all mentality makes it more profitable.
If you can buy 6 packs and get all the non-random minis you'll stop there. If you have to buy 12 packs to get the slightly rarer rust monster to complete your set then WotC makes more money.
Look at the prices of minis online. Some rares are sold for barely more than uncommons. Some are sold for the price of an entire pack of minis. Some are sold for even more.
Why? Some are in high demand and some are very rare. The BIG figure of the line is usually particularly rare (beholders, dragons, Raistlin, etc) to encourage more purchases.
I'll probably pick-up a couple of the new boxes. Mostly because (due to random minis) I have very few ogres and trolls. An aboleth might be fun as well.
But, other than the must haves, I'll stay away simply because of the severe and terrible decline in quality. They say they've improved the painting but they're still using a low-quality paint and the quality is still well below where it was eighteen months ago and worse than when it started. The quality has bell curved noticeably.
Etc.
The tipping point will be when WoTC moves over into 'set' minis' Much like Games Workshop does for their armies. You know what's in the box, but if your running adventure X, you'll need mini's pack A,B,F.
Etc.
That would be preferable to the current madness
Not really, just basic marketing.
Collectibility and the nerd's obessive gotta-have-'em-all mentality makes it more profitable.
Lol... I know that. My conspiracy comment was based of the quoted post that said it was "deceptive marketing."
Good point, I used to collect baseball cards so i was deceived by the conspiring card companies when i never got a complet set! :D
Again there not making you buy them and after a month or two there will be single minis in the stores and online that one can buy.
Actually it was a conspiracy. A few decades ago it was common practice to have sets with non existent cards. Cards would be numbered 345,346,348 and the uninformed would keep buying packs try futilely to find card 347. This practice has stopped long ago though.
Well, I attended a convention yesterday, and the organisers handed out some new monster packs as promos.
From what I saw I couldn't honestly confirm any sort of better look - at all!
I would not have recognised the only "rare" miniature I had in hands (a gythianki warrior of some sort) if it wasn't for the star symbol on the bottom of the base.
--
Thanks and always good gaming,
~Matt Butler
Champions of the Realms Yahoo Group
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/championsoftherealms/
Champions of the Realms Warhorn Site
http://www.warhorn.org/ChampionsOfTheRealms/
To me, the Reaper pre-paints offer a pretty good example of how well this idea works. Very limited selection, quality ranges from decent to lousy (and please, don't post pictures of the master paints from their website), and you pay roughly $5 per mini.
In case anyone missed the subtext to what Mr Quest is saying here, it's that Reaper's prepainted minis are evidence of why this "No random minis!" idea is not as ideal as some of you seem to believe. Additionally, this means a lot more coming from Johnny than from the rest of us; he's a man of knowledge and influence in miniatures circles -- he THE JohnnyQuest! He knows what he's talkin' about!
To reiterate though, Reaper's prepainted minis illustrate what's likely from DDM if it became totally nonrandom. Reaper's prepaints are more expensive, offer dramatically less variety, and aren't necessarily much better painted than WotC's prepaints. (Remember that WotC put out some very nice images of their master paintjobs, too.) Totally nonrandom minis would be cool for DMs, but bad for the product line overall.
This illustrates the problem with random miniatures. Now I'll have to trade my Fire Titan for a friend's Death Titan or what-not; that's assuming that they even have one and are willing to trade it for a Fire Titan that they might also have because of frustrated chances when you only get one of that size in the box, and have so few individual minis to have the random selection from.
This sounds remarkably like Pokémon... oh wait, the American version of the card game used to be liscenced by Wizards too...
I like the fact that they're releasing set figures for the "Player's Handbook Heroes" and such. That should be the direction they take. Release set figures, let me pay money directly to Wizards to get the figures I want and not be frustrated.
Otherwise, they may lose me as a miniatures customer and I'll turn back to the plan of various sizes of spools of thread. That's a cheap and efficient (though not-flashy) way of still working the tactical game.
These prices are not inflated.
http://store02.prostores.com/servlet/auggiesgames/Categories?category=D%26D+minis
Exchange rate + Shipping + Not actually cheap in the first place = Bad.
2. Dungeon Tiles aren't randomized, why should minis be? The reason tiles are standard is because some are more utility driven (generic) and others are more specialized. The same applies to minis and we simply wish that WotC would take the final step toward realizing this.
Taking random out of mini purchasing was actually what I thought was happening. I'm a bit disappointed that some of the minis will still be random. I understand that WotC wants to make a profit, but this is not the right economy for squeezing us for every dime.
I think they would rather sell six packs then none (even if 12 is better). I will say that I'm proud of WotC for moving in this direction, but they aren't quite there yet (I think we can agree on that much). I'm no marketing guru, but I think they will get there after they see how well the PC minis sell compared to the monster minis. Honestly, I'd rather run humanoid heavy games with minis I know then monster heavy games using minis that don't match.
Well, that's my two cents.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
1. If they make every mini to serve a certain purpose (even inserting several in a pack as filler) then they will never end up with one pack selling significantly less than any other.
2. Dungeon Tiles aren't randomized, why should minis be? The reason tiles are standard is because some are more utility driven (generic) and others are more specialized. The same applies to minis and we simply wish that WotC would take the final step toward realizing this.
Taking random out of mini purchasing was actually what I thought was happening. I'm a bit disappointed that some of the minis will still be random. I understand that WotC wants to make a profit, but this is not the right economy for squeezing us for every dime.
I think they would rather sell six packs then none (even if 12 is better). I will say that I'm proud of WotC for moving in this direction, but they aren't quite there yet (I think we can agree on that much). I'm no marketing guru, but I think they will get there after they see how well the PC minis sell compared to the monster minis. Honestly, I'd rather run humanoid heavy games with minis I know then monster heavy games using minis that don't match.
Well, that's my two cents.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
WotC's not "squeezing you for every dime"; you choose to buy their minis.
As for how well the PC minis sell, I can only assume you mean "not very". Who is ever going to buy more than one of each pack of PC minis? They're never, ever going to sell as well as monster packs.
Seriously, I'm tired of random miniatures, and I'm sure most gamers out there who play 4e don't want to spend their money on miniatures they MIGHT be able to use.
"One minatures you can see, plus 4 you can't! Isn't that awesome?!"
WoTC cracked with characters, but they're still forcing you to buy your monsters at random. So don't, go to other companies that make miniatures.
Case and point: Stop buying random miniatures and WoTC will stop producing them.
Weird, when I walk into a game shop, I have never been 'forced' to buy anything. Is there a Wizards employee who forces people to buy things in your game shop???
Weird, when I walk into a game shop, I have never been 'forced' to buy anything. Is there a Wizards employee who forces people to buy things in your game shop???
i no, amirite?
"nau tehyr 4sing us to etc." is lyk mah favorite internetz canard lyk, evar.
These prices are not inflated.
http://store02.prostores.com/servlet/auggiesgames/Categories?category=D%26D+minis
I followed your link, and I'm not impressed. Most of the rares cost more than the entire box, and many of the uncommons are close. I've seen better prices elsewhere.
I will never buy unpainted minis. I don't have the time or the patience or the thousands of dollars to spend on them. And I don't mind random mini packs - it's the nature of the beast. I wouldn't say no to specific sets, though.
I once thought as you did, then I tried my hand at painting just to see how well I could do. As it turns out, I'm not very good at it--but I still do a better job than the WotC prepaints. Doesn't take as long as you'd think, either, maybe half an hour, less if you do several at once so you can do them assembly-line style, and you could probably get it down to 5-10 minutes if you settled for the same quality as the prepaints. Considering that you get pewter instead of plastic, you spend roughly half as much (~$5-$7 each, and I'm still using my original set of $20 paints), and you can choose the colors as you like, I now use pewter minis for all my and my wife's PCs that we don't already have good minis for. I never used minis for monsters anyway.
I would also like some non random. But lets be honnest here, I could not afford reaper minis. (4+$ each...) On top of that my hands shake. TThis means I will NEVER be able to do as good of a job at painting as the worst WotC figure.
I followed your link, and I'm not impressed. Most of the rares cost more than the entire box, and many of the uncommons are close. I've seen better prices elsewhere.
What are the websites with the better prices!
What are the websites with the better prices!
Yes, please share.
I'd rather 'Just say no: to crappy paint job quality on miniatures!':P
This guy. Right here.^
Blah. I bought two boxes of the Against the Giants booster, and I got a Fire Titan as the super-rare huge mini in both of them. I just had to get another Fire Titan. I wouldn't be surprised if I got a third one before the end.
This illustrates the problem with random miniatures. Now I'll have to trade my Fire Titan for a friend's Death Titan or what-not; that's assuming that they even have one and are willing to trade it for a Fire Titan that they might also have because of frustrated chances when you only get one of that size in the box, and have so few individual minis to have the random selection from.
Simple solution, buy in bulk. WotC specifically packs their shipping cases with collectors in mind. Excluding packing errors, if you buy a case then each of the 12 (6 for huge sets) packs inside should have a different rare (huge sets will also have a different huge figure in each pack). This also comes with a nice perk in that most FLGS sell cases at a discount.
Simple solution, buy in bulk. WotC specifically packs their shipping cases with collectors in mind. Excluding packing errors, if you buy a case then each of the 12 (6 for huge sets) packs inside should have a different rare (huge sets will also have a different huge figure in each pack). This also comes with a nice perk in that most FLGS sell cases at a discount.
Some of us aren't upper middle class. We can't buy for our hobby in bulk. It's an occasional splurge.
Some of us aren't upper middle class. We can't buy for our hobby in bulk. It's an occasional splurge.
Some of us aren't upper middle class, but we save up money over time to get the best buy, I.E. a case, instead of impulse buying a single pack every week or two.
or the phb heros thing they are doing except that apparently the new minis look pretty bad.
Actually, bad is a complement. They look awful in so many ways WoTC should be ashamed to even be associated with them. Blech!
I'd rather 'Just say no: to crappy paint job quality on miniatures!':P
[url=
http://www.coolminiornot.com/170316
]Man, if only they could get this guy to work at Wizards, and maybe approve the sculpts & master paints...[/url]
WotC's not "squeezing you for every dime"; you choose to buy their minis.
As for how well the PC minis sell, I can only assume you mean "not very". Who is ever going to buy more than one of each pack of PC minis? They're never, ever going to sell as well as monster packs.
I disagree on both counts.
The first count I disagree on because you're arguing semantics. WotC sells the monster packs randomly because they want to make more money from doing so. The fact that I may refuse to allow them to strong-arm me into purchasing more than I can afford is exactly my point. The ability to choose does not negate intent, good Doctor.
To use an example that is extremely out of proportion (but still scales well), if I have secured myself in a saferoom and an assassin, who is sent to kill me, holds my daughter up to the security camera I am looking through, and demands that I come out or he will kill her, the fact that I can choose to let her die does not change the INTENT of the assassin the kill me.
By comparison, I may choose to use salt and pepper shakers to the exclusion of minis entirely, but the INTENT of WotC is to make extra money off of me by selling the miniatures in randomized packages. There is simply no arguing this fact! Unless, of course, you believe that WotC exists merely to make D&D and not money. In which case, I invite you to cease being nieve.
On the second count, I simply disagree based on an understanding of economics. Given that most consumers will be operating on a stricter budget than in earlier years, I predict that the average consumer will opt to purchase something he knows as opposed to gambling on something that may or may not contain what he or she wants. Simply put, unstable purchases decrease in a suffering economy. The fact that those packs include monsters will allow them to keep up with the PC sales, but not reach nearly the hights they may have otherwise.
Time may prove me wrong, but, given what we know, this is the safest assessment of the situation and the best prediction. We'll see.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
PS: I can hardly wait for your one and a half paragraph hand-waving for this post. They're so adequate. (That's sarcasm, by the way, in case you missed it.)
To use an example that is extremely out of proportion (but still scales well), if I have secured myself in a saferoom and an assassin, who is sent to kill me, holds my daughter up to the security camera I am looking through, and demands that I come out or he will kill her, the fact that I can choose to let her die does not change the INTENT of the assassin the kill me.
Honestly, I don't think it really scales terribly well. Thanks for the extreme hyperbole, though.
Unless, of course, you believe that WotC exists merely to make D&D and not money.
I totally believe that. WotC like all corporations, is here to serve you and your every want and need. I mean, come on, what is this, some sort of bizarre capitalist society we're living in? >.>
In which case, I invite you to cease being naive.
Fixed.
(That's sarcasm, by the way, in case you missed it.)
How kind of you. Clearly we are not intelligent enough to grasp the incredibly clever wordplay of one so superior to us. Please, forgive us our ignorance, I beg of thee.
On the second count, I simply disagree based on an understanding of economics. Given that most consumers will be operating on a stricter budget than in earlier years, I predict that the average consumer will opt to purchase something he knows as opposed to gambling on something that may or may not contain what he or she wants. Simply put, unstable purchases decrease in a suffering economy. The fact that those packs include monsters will allow them to keep up with the PC sales, but not reach nearly the hights they may have otherwise.
ok, please showe me were I can find the compaby that makes non random minis at less then or equal to the price WotC charges...
Price $14.99 so lets call that $15...5 minis...so $3 each...
ok, please showe me were I can find the compaby that makes non random minis at less then or equal to the price WotC charges...
Price $14.99 so lets call that $15...5 minis...so $3 each...
Don't forget variety. WotC is expected to release around 120 to 160 different monster minis per year under the current market plan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordDreadman
To use an example that is extremely out of proportion (but still scales well), if I have secured myself in a saferoom and an assassin, who is sent to kill me, holds my daughter up to the security camera I am looking through, and demands that I come out or he will kill her, the fact that I can choose to let her die does not change the INTENT of the assassin the kill me.
Honestly, I don't think it really scales terribly well. Thanks for the extreme hyperbole, though.
how about this scale:
(this assumes you are a man and fairly normal)
You go out and you buy a four pack of underwear, the box clearly displays one pair of black 100% cotton mens briefs. The box clearly states random assortment of underwear. It also displays other adjectives like "NEW" and "COMFORTABLE". The pair of underwear on the outside is exactly your size and preference, and you know that you will be wearing them very soon.
Then....
You open up said box and you are shocked by what is inside. One pink lace panty, One speedo with heart patterns , and a piece 40-grit sandpaper.
You sit there and ponder the contents of the box...
Well I guess someone could wear the panties but really it would never do you any good, maybe I could find some lady who got black briefs and trade her for the panties....
I guess I could use speedo, if the time was right, and the mood was right, and I had that special someone there. But really it is only going to be good for that one moment when the stars and planets are aligned, then after that it will likely just seem forced and uncormfortable to wear.
and sandpaper.... really....
When would I ever use that for underwear, maybe it has a purpose, but it's not for housing my family jewels.
That is how I feel about random miniature, Maybe you choose the one that is visible for your game, but then it is very likely that the rest are useless, do to rarity of use, not what your game needs, or just a miniature that is entirely something ridiculous and is better served as a door stop than a D&D miniature.
You wouldn't allow this marketing for your clothes, your food or anything else in your life, so why would you take it in the rear for your hobby(I mean honestly these aren't necessity purcheses for most people). Be smart, say no to random miniatures, if you want/need a surprise have someone else buy them for you, wrap them with a bow, and then give them to you. Your arguements will have to be much stronger for me to believe that random miniatures are a good purchase.
Fixed.
How kind of you. Clearly we are not intelligent enough to grasp the incredibly clever wordplay of one so superior to us. Please, forgive us our ignorance, I beg of thee.
I, uh, wasn't talking to you. Thanks for going stark-wild on my post, though. As you may have noticed, while writing your post, yours isn't one and a half paragraphs long. Thus, it really doesn't apply to you. In addition, even as you make fun of me for seeming arrogant, you come across as a pretty uppity fellow yourself. You should be careful with that.
As for the spelling mistake you fixed, I actually appriciate that. It did look wrong to me as I wrote it, but I was too lazy to use spell checker. It's too bad you meant the correction in a malicious way.
In short, I'm sorry we disagree. You seem a decent fellow, I hate to kill you.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
(this assumes you are a man and fairly normal)
I don't think any of us using these forums are even fairly normal. Lawl j/k. (But really, haha)
*stuff about undies*
This was pretty funny, I definitely lol'd. But you would have been better served including perhaps a g-string or something, instead of the sand paper, because randomized mini packs don't include random materials that aren't even similar products. Overall though, I give you a 9 on the snark-scale! =D
Your arguements will have to be much stronger for me to believe that random miniatures are a good purchase.
Luckily, my goal is not to convince you to buy randomized minis!
In addition, even as you make fun of me for seeming arrogant, you come across as a pretty uppity fellow yourself. You should be careful with that.
I'm pretty careless about it. My goal also isn't to be everyone's favorite forumite, to be honest.
Under the current scheme, I'll buy one or two packs just to test my luck, but I will likely fall back to my current plan of scouring the online retailers for minis $1 or cheaper, maybe 2 or 3 for large ones or ones I'd really like to have. As a consumer, random minis are simply not cost-effective for my needs.
I'd be willing to split the difference and have random themed sets of minis. Maybe split them up by origin or other keywords. I wouldn't mind buying a blind box of 8 (or even 7 since the economy is hurting) random minis if I knew each one would be a natural or fey beast, etc.
My issue with random minis is only inflated with this new pricing scheme. I like to use minis that resemble the creature they represent. I need lots of minis for a decent price. If I'm only getting 5 minis, one (the one I saw) might be the only one I want, still. Yes it's better than the total 8 gamble, but it's still a crap shoot. And a needles one since the DDM game is moot.
Yes it's my hobby, but it's a luxury. If the new product provided is deemed too expensive, it will just come down to using our imagination. My experience will be slightly diluted (as I'll feel cheated by it), but I'll survive. But what we as consumers must remember, is that we have a right to feel satisfaction from the products we consume.
And yes wizards is forcing us to buy them, unless you have another solution to acquire these (imho over-priced) products.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the change in pricing. It used to be 8 random minis for $15. Now I have to lose 3 whole minis for the limited benefit of knowing one, and only one of the minis I'm buying. Seems to be a pretty crappy trade, considering a encounter might have easily 2 to 4x the ammount of PCs if loaded with minions.
Now this I can support. I am fairly disappointed in this decision.
I'd be willing to split the difference and have random themed sets of minis. Maybe split them up by origin or other keywords. I wouldn't mind buying a blind box of 8 (or even 7 since the economy is hurting) random minis if I knew each one would be a natural or fey beast, etc.
This also sounds kind of interesting.
But what we as consumers must remember, is that we have a right to feel satisfaction from the products we consume.
And yes wizards is forcing us to buy them, unless you have another solution to acquire these (imho over-priced) products.
I agree that we indeed have the right to feel satisfaction from the products we consume. However, we also have the right to discontinue purchasing products if we are unsatisifed. There are many other producers of miniatures for us to choose from if we don't like WOTC's format. WOTC is not the only game in town.
Even if WotC tried to distribute non-random battle pack sets, there would still be similar distribution issues. Inevitably, some sets would sell better than others, which would again lead to shelves getting clogged with unwanted sets. The only way to try and prevent that would be to make each set a limited run; something that has proven somewhat unpopular with the Dungeon Tiles line and would likely only be more unpopular with minis.
The problems with non-random miniatures have been made evident before. WotC tried non-random miniatures under the Chainmail brand name near the beginning of 3rd edition. The product line was mostly a flop. Individual figures meant the product required significant shelf space (typically a separate hang rack for each figure). Also, because figures were shipped as sets, the popular figures would get bought quickly, leaving the less desirable figures to clog up the shelves. Eventually it got to the point that stores stopped ordering new figures because their shelves were full of seemingly unsellable figures. My local game store still has a significant back stock of Chainmail figures/sets, but no D&D minis packs more than two years old (and often times any set over a year old has a notable mark-up); I think that says quite a lot for the success rate of the randomly packed miniatures.
Even if WotC tried to distribute non-random battle pack sets, there would still be similar distribution issues. Inevitably, some sets would sell better than others, which would again lead to shelves getting clogged with unwanted sets. The only way to try and prevent that would be to make each set a limited run; something that has proven somewhat unpopular with the Dungeon Tiles line and would likely only be more unpopular with minis.
All retailers get stuck with merchandise that doesn't sell as well as others. The responsible party who does purchasing should be informed of the product and have a knowledge of how many units will sell per order period. That is the reason why there are sales and promotions to deal with surplus inventory. As far as wall space is concerned, you either are prepared to sell with the space you have or you're not, this doesn't prevent options like special orders or stock boxing inventory. Why punish the consumer because retailers have bad business practices? Aren't the random miniatures already limited run?
All retailers get stuck with merchandise that doesn't sell as well as others. The responsible party who does purchasing should be informed of the product and have a knowledge of how many units will sell per order period. That is the reason why there are sales and promotions to deal with surplus inventory. As far as wall space is concerned, you either are prepared to sell with the space you have or you're not, this doesn't prevent options like special orders or stock boxing inventory. Why punish the consumer because retailers have bad business practices? Aren't the random miniatures already limited run?
Bad business practices? Even Wal-Mart (likely the most successful retailer to ever exist) has trouble with this sort of thing, as anyone who has ever tried to collect comic book or Star Wars action figure should be able to attest. The stores can't just order X number of Y figure; they come in pre-set assortments. Invertibly some figure sell better than others, the store shelves get clogged whit unpopular figures, and the store puts a hold on new orders until the old inventory clears (even when entirely new assortments of figures are now shipping).
Further more this leads a different variety of rare figure. In that some figures are so popular that they are bought off the shelves almost as fast as they are stocked. It can be an extremely frustrating experience to have to hunt across a dozen or more stores searching for "that one figure"; or worse still nagging an individual store to find out when their next shipment comes in, getting up an hour before they open on that day, and then getting in only to find out that one of the stockman already nabbed the choice figure for his own collection (or worse intends to scalp it online).
Someone posted ( i can not find the post now) that they get rares for 1 to 2 dollars and uncommons for less then the 1 dollar.
Someone post some links to the sites please!
1) Cheap
2) Non-random
3) Wide variety
Pick 2.
You can't have all 3 because of the basic economics of it all.
If it's non-random, and inexpensive, not too many people will choose to buy that grig mini (or whatever 'useless' mini) so it doesn't get purchased, so it doesn't cover it's production cost and so the future minis like that don't get made. So rule #3 gets broken.
Or if you are determined to have non-random and a wide variety, then you have to jack up the cost so that the few copies of the grig (or whatever) you to make cover the cost or production. So rule #1 gets broken.
WOTC chooses to give us 1 and 3 and not #2. Minis are relatively cheap and there are a wide variety of them.
Other companies do it differently. You can go over to Reaper and get plastic minis that are reasonably cheap and non-random... but the selection is VERY limited.
Also, it's been noted that you can buy minis online non-randomly. It was countered that it's expensive. Duh. See above. You get 2&3 but not 1.
*snip*
Mmmm. Mini-math. Delicious. =D
WotC's not "squeezing you for every dime"; you choose to buy their minis.
As for how well the PC minis sell, I can only assume you mean "not very". Who is ever going to buy more than one of each pack of PC minis? They're never, ever going to sell as well as monster packs.
I disagree on both counts.
The first count I disagree on because you're arguing semantics. WotC sells the monster packs randomly because they want to make more money from doing so. The fact that I may refuse to allow them to strong-arm me into purchasing more than I can afford is exactly my point. The ability to choose does not negate intent, good Doctor.
To use an example that is extremely out of proportion (but still scales well), if I have secured myself in a saferoom and an assassin, who is sent to kill me, holds my daughter up to the security camera I am looking through, and demands that I come out or he will kill her, the fact that I can choose to let her die does not change the INTENT of the assassin the kill me.
By comparison, I may choose to use salt and pepper shakers to the exclusion of minis entirely, but the INTENT of WotC is to make extra money off of me by selling the miniatures in randomized packages. There is simply no arguing this fact! Unless, of course, you believe that WotC exists merely to make D&D and not money. In which case, I invite you to cease being nieve.
On the second count, I simply disagree based on an understanding of economics. Given that most consumers will be operating on a stricter budget than in earlier years, I predict that the average consumer will opt to purchase something he knows as opposed to gambling on something that may or may not contain what he or she wants. Simply put, unstable purchases decrease in a suffering economy. The fact that those packs include monsters will allow them to keep up with the PC sales, but not reach nearly the hights they may have otherwise.
Time may prove me wrong, but, given what we know, this is the safest assessment of the situation and the best prediction. We'll see.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
PS: I can hardly wait for your one and a half paragraph hand-waving for this post. They're so adequate. (That's sarcasm, by the way, in case you missed it.)
Since you're waiting so patiently for a response from, I'm happy to oblige.
On the first count, you misrepresent my point. (Twice, in fact). I said that WotC isn't forcing you to buy their miniatures, and it's obvious that they aren't. 4E is perfectly playable with the use of inexpensive substitutes for miniatures. You obviously understand this, because you suggested the use of salt shakers instead of miniatures. Furthermore, I never said that WotC wasn't interested in making money; what I said was that they aren't trying to "squeeze you for every dime". The difference is intent (hey look, it's your favorite word!); WotC's intent is to secure a stable, long-term revenue stream that's significant enough to cover the costs of producing it and can provide for reasonable growth in the future. That's not in-line with what "squeezing [customers] for every dime" means. Basically, my overall point is that WotC's sales strategy for miniatures isn't motivated by greed so much as cost recovery and a desire for stable and sustainable business in a hostile economy.
(Did you note that I just argued against the fact against which you claim, "There's simply no arguing...!"? I argued against it because I think it's BS.)
The second point is speculation. You speculate that people will buy more PC minis packs than monster packs because the PC packs are nonrandom; I speculate that people will buy more monster packs than PC packs because of the limited utility of humanoid miniatures. Time will prove one of us right, but until then we can only speculate.
To restate my position in brief, I don't support totally nonrandom monster miniatures, because I believe it will limit selection and drive up the cost to the consumer, for reasons that have already been discussed elsewhere in this thread.
PS: It's disturbing to me that "assassins threatening to murder your daughter" is the best analogy that you came up with to illustrate choice. Is that the kind of thing you think about?
WotC's intent is to secure a stable, long-term revenue stream that's significant enough to cover the costs of producing it and can provide for reasonable growth in the future. That's not in-line with what "squeezing [customers] for every dime" means. Basically, my overall point is that WotC's sales strategy for miniatures isn't motivated by greed so much as cost recovery and a desire for stable and sustainable business in a hostile economy.
Dr. Hook, you have earned a place on my list of Lurve-Worthy Posters. =D
Even if you insist upon evaluating whether a company is "squeezing" its customers based on the company's intent, you'd have to argue that WotC's intent is to squeeze its customers.
WotC's intent is much more likely to be to sell a product to consumers who want to buy it at a price which maximizes revenue.
If that's an intent to squeeze the customer, then all sales from all companies are driven by an intent to squeeze the customer.
Which might be your point? Maybe you're just leveraging this argument into an attack on the capitalist system as a whole or something? I dunno, I can't see into your mind.
But if your goal was to argue that WotC has some intention that's unusually wrongful or unethical or worthy of condemnation or even slightly unusual or different from other companies, then you kind of lose. You didn't even get started on that argument.
As for your little analogy- we get it. Choices aren't always completely free. If an evil terrorist threatens to kill your child unless you do what you're told, and you choose to do so, on one hand it was your choice, but on the other it was a heavily coerced choice.
But to take that principle, and apply it to a company which refuses to sell you a product unless you pay a particular price? The action in your analogy which was coercive was the threat to kill a child. The action in the scenario under discussion which you argue is analogously coercive was the threat to not give you a product that you did not pay for.
While both are "events" which you might not like, you really can't argue that they're analogous unless you want to broaden your entire argument into a critique on the entire concept of voluntary exchange of goods and services for negotiated prices, including the exchange of luxury commodities and non essentials like plastic toy goblins.
So I guess you get points for having a freshman level understanding of needs as inherently coercive, but you really need to take your argument to its logical conclusion or else admit that it was dumb all along.
*snip*
I heart you. You're on the list now. =D
I disagree on both counts.
The first count I disagree on because you're arguing semantics. WotC sells the monster packs randomly because they want to make more money from doing so. The fact that I may refuse to allow them to strong-arm me into purchasing more than I can afford is exactly my point. The ability to choose does not negate intent, good Doctor.
(snip comparison of random packed minis to trained killers)
By comparison, I may choose to use salt and pepper shakers to the exclusion of minis entirely, but the INTENT of WotC is to make extra money off of me by selling the miniatures in randomized packages. There is simply no arguing this fact! Unless, of course, you believe that WotC exists merely to make D&D and not money. In which case, I invite you to cease being nieve.
The intent of a company to make money isn't "strong-arming" you to "squeeze every last dime" out of you. You may claim it's arguing semantics, but you're using strong language meant to describe being threatened or forced into buying their product. It's a bit melodramatic. They make a product, they put it on the shelves for you to buy if you choose.
I never bought the previous minis, and i never felt strong-armed into buying them, nor did I feel that WotC was trying to "squeeze every last dime" out of me. There's nothing forcing you (strong-arming) to buy the product either in small or "squeezing every last dime out of you" quantities.
On the second count, I simply disagree based on an understanding of economics. Given that most consumers will be operating on a stricter budget than in earlier years, I predict that the average consumer will opt to purchase something he knows as opposed to gambling on something that may or may not contain what he or she wants.
I knew plenty of people who had lower finances than me that bought a metric ton of the previous minis. I don't see that changing in today's economic climate. They didn't call it plastic crack for nothing. :D
I knew plenty of people who had lower finances than me that bought a metric ton of the previous minis. I don't see that changing in today's economic climate. They didn't call it plastic crack for nothing. :D
Indeed, I have a friend who basically works at a gas station convenience store. He still manages to afforded to a box or two of each new M:tG set that gets released (the cost of which is pretty close to that of buying a full case of miniatures) while still having plenty left over for food, rent, and gas as well as additional luxuries beyond M:tG.
Being able to afford miniatures isn't a matter of economic class; it's just a matter of prioritizing your luxury budget. Anyone who can afford the books can probably afford the minis as well, especially if an entire play group pools their resources to buy full cases.
As for paint quality. It's ok for people without time but I am more than happy to repaint mine which means I can create a uniform feel among my goblins and kobolds. Even my heroes have a common standard of painting and obviously I fill and gaps in multipart models with modelling putty (green stuff)
As for price. I find them good value compared to Citadel miniatures where single heroes cost £8 now and 16 plastic skeletons cost £18. I can pick up a pack of 8 random D&D minis for about £10 or if I shop around I can get commons and uncommons for a lot less.
If we could get boxed sets I'd like to see a 'Heroic' set a 'Paragon' set and an 'Epic' set. Each would have a bunch of commons (about 9 in various poses) including old releases as repaints and then a unique leader for that box. Also included in the box would be a dungeon map especially for an encounter with the miniatures in the box. This would help encourage DDM tournament play with new maps. And provide a nice quick and easy starter game for new DMs similar to how they are marketing the new 'Delves'. That way a budding DM can buy a delve set and a hero set and then have their own mini D&D Day experience.
Heroclix had a similar approach but got to it too late. If they had started with superhero teams I think they would have faired much better.
This would help encourage DDM tournament play with new maps.
Except they've scrapped DDM and any tournament play with the minis.
I simply disagree. I believe I've already explained why. The fact that you are interested in arguing simply to prove that something CAN be argued (yeah, that must be another of my favorite words, dill hole) is rediculous, and I refuse to get caught up in your self-validating posts.
As for my example, I said beforehand that it was out of proportion. I appriciate that you share the capacity of a parrot to repeat things already said, but don't quit your day job for anything that requires writing. Maybe you should keep to one and a half paragraph posts after all.
Honestly, I don't know how to respond to your "PS" ... maybe I should remind you that there are a lot of wealthy writers who think of that "kind of thing" all the time, but I get the feeling that entertainment is not your forte.
By the way, for the record, I absolutely believe that WotC is exactly as greedy as any other large buisness. The fact that they love the product doesn't change the fact that the executives want to own a big house and a nice car!
Whew! You almost got me arguing again. I'm just going to stop there. I've spent enough time in Indiana to recognise when people are set in their ways. Later.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
Others have already responded to this, but I still want to take my turn.
Let's be straight: I didn't argue my point simply for the fun of arguing it, but because I know that I'm right -- the fact that you inexplicably claimed my position couldn't be argued is just the proverbial "icing on the cake" to the contrarian in me.
Your analogy was out of proportion, and you did point that out yourself, but neither of those truths change the fact that your analogy is categorically inapplicable to this discussion.
Illustrating the silliness of comparing minis to murder
The Assassin is supposed to be WotC, right? And you, in the saferoom, are the customer? The Assassin (WotC) wants you (the customer) to come out of the saferoom (acquiesce to their randomized minis distribution strategy?) so that he can kill you (sell minis to you). If you (the customer) don't come out of the saferoom (acquiesce to randomized minis distribution) then the Assassin (WotC) will kill you daughter (...ruin your 4E game?). Your analogy is flawed because the daughter doesn't represent anything meaningful; your analogy supposes that you are being coerced into buying miniatures from WotC, when in reality WotC has absolutely nothing it can do to coerce you into buying its miniatures.
Dr. Hook, you have earned a place on my list of Lurve-Worthy Posters. =D
Hey, thanks dude! (Or better yet, dudette!) FWIW, you seem alright too.
I heart you. You're on the list now. =D
Oh.
I see how it is.
...
( :P )