I think Kalashatar will likely appear in the PHB with Psionics. They'll make a great tie in with the psionics rules, and it will tie the book in with the campaign setting, which will hopefully cause more people to buy them both.
Well, the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide had two new races in it - Drow and Genasi. I think following that example, the Eberron Player's Guide will have Warforged and Changeling presented as the two new races. We already have Shifters, who may get an expanded write up as well.
I think Kalashatar will likely appear in the PHB with Psionics. They'll make a great tie in with the psionics rules, and it will tie the book in with the campaign setting, which will hopefully cause more people to buy them both.
I don't see how they will make changelings any different from dopplegangers using 4E rules. I hope they don't follow the FRPG layout and just give us more shifter types, kalashtar, warforged, and maybe even the daelkyr halfbloods. The latter being unlikely but watev.
I don't see how they will make changelings any different from dopplegangers using 4E rules. I hope they don't follow the FRPG layout and just give us more shifter types, kalashtar, warforged, and maybe even the daelkyr halfbloods. The latter being unlikely but watev.
I agree with this guy.
I don't see how they will make changelings any different from dopplegangers using 4E rules. I hope they don't follow the FRPG layout and just give us more shifter types, kalashtar, warforged, and maybe even the daelkyr halfbloods. The latter being unlikely but watev.
I know I'd LIKE to see more in the book, but I'm not sure we will. 4th Edition doesn't seem to be about giving us options within a campaign setting, so much as it is about spreading the old campaign setting options out among the general books. This isn't really a complaint, by the way. We've got Shifters in PHB2 - I don't think we'll see a reprint of them, but we might see more options. Maybe. Warforged are pretty much the core of what we can expect - They're the Big Thing of Eberron. After Warforged and Shifters, I'd say Changeling are the next likely thing - Yes, Dopplegangers are in the MM, but so are Shifters, Gnomes, etc. A full race write up would be great.
Something like the Daelkyr Halfbloods... Are far too small scale to really merit being included, I think. They're not really a big thing in Eberron at all. Most games probably never see one.
I also wonder what the kalashtar fluff will be like for the implied setting of the core rules.
I think it would make more sense, from a fanboy standpoint, to put warforged & kalashtar in the PGtE and doppelgangers in the PH3. However, it might make more financial sense to put the lesser-known race (kalashtar) in the PH3, so the PGtE is all the more attractive to general players.
I also wonder what the kalashtar fluff will be like for the implied setting of the core rules.
Despite what might be said by unnamed, less civil, possibly sarcastic posters, I think you make a good point there.
One thing that I think we do need to remember is that "everything is core." The warforged already got a full article in Dragon. Wizards might consider that to be their full write-up and just give us more character options for them in the PGtE. I don't think I'd consider that the most likely scenario, but I do see it as possible.
Silly OP, Kalashtar already exist! They're called Devas now.
I was wondering if that might be the case, too. There's a very different flavor to them, though. I don't know how much they'd reflavor them for the sake of the campaign settings (although this is Eberron, with Hot Topic elves and dinosaur-riding halflings). I also recall seeing mention of a plane of dreams somewhere, I think MotP. They could tie kalashtar into that in the core setting.
Well, the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide had two new races in it - Drow and Genasi. I think following that example, the Eberron Player's Guide will have Warforged and Changeling presented as the two new races. We already have Shifters, who may get an expanded write up as well.
I think Kalashatar will likely appear in the PHB with Psionics. They'll make a great tie in with the psionics rules, and it will tie the book in with the campaign setting, which will hopefully cause more people to buy them both.
One thing that might not have been considered for the Eberron book - additional Shifter races? Maybe Beasthide Shifter (CON/WIS) and Dreamsight Shifter (CHA/WIS). It's not as likely, though.
I was wondering if that might be the case, too. There's a very different flavor to them, though.
Less than you might think. The only real differences are that kalashtar souls only half-reincarnate, and devas can't have kids.
Silly OP, Kalashtar already exist! They're called Devas now.
I don't quite get this. Reading the deva description, nothing other than the reincarnation business even remotely feels like kalashtar (kalashtar don't really reincarnate, anyways, they're just born with memories from their quori spirit). Their prime racial ability was mind-linking the party. The immortal origin and resistances don't make any sense for kalashtar, either. Finally, they look nothing at all alike; as someone at the Ebby Lore boards mentioned, WotC isn't going to make both deva minis and special Eberron deva minis.
I wonder if the 'core' kalashtar will actually be flavored more like elans (altered humans with psionic abilities). Not too far removed, there, as kalashtar are the descendants of altered humans.
Silly OP, Kalashtar already exist! They're called Devas now.
This.
they're just born with memories from their quori spirit).
This is why Deva = Kalashtar.
dragon mark like multiclass or bloodline?
Spellscar?
This is why Deva = Kalashtar.
Actually, there's a significant difference there. I believe that kalashtar are born. Devas, on the other hand, just pop back into existence.
The deva is very divinely-flavored, whereas the kalshtar is much more psionic. As far as stats, though, I could see the devas stats being used for a race like the kalashtar. I also could see the deva being replaced by the kalashtar in Eberron due to the greater vagueness surrounding the gods and the divine. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that deva=kalashtar without some noticeable reflavoring of the kalashtar within the Eberron setting.
One thing that might not have been considered for the Eberron book - additional Shifter races? Maybe Beasthide Shifter (CON/WIS) and Dreamsight Shifter (CHA/WIS). It's not as likely, though.
Doubtful, at least I hope so. We don't need subraces to rear their ugly heads again.
Silly OP, Kalashtar already exist! They're called Devas now.
Not this again...
Kalashtar and Devas are about as similar as hobgoblins and humans (both militaristic, expansionist humanoid races), there's no need to merge them. The concepts are entirely distinct. Kalashtar don't have memories of past lives, they have vague memories of Dal Quor (not other kalashtar) associated with an alien consciousness inside their own. And that isn't even their main shtick, it's a side note.
Deva = angelic beings who are constantly reincarnated.
Kalashtar = psychic ex-humans playing host to a creature from the dreamscape.
There's no reason for them to share stats apart from laziness.
Not to mention Devas are a strong concept to include in Eberron on their own.
Unless they get a whole visual makeover to support "we're dream creatures!" cheese, I'm really not going to be impressed.
I think changelings have a whole lot of potential, and I hope that wizards doesn't pass up the chance to play something really fun.
My Speculation: There won't be Shifters, because those were just published in a hardcover book two months ago -- PH2. (If you want Shifters -- and you should -- buy PH2.) Warforged are in, because they're iconic to the setting; any book called "Eberron Player's Guide" needs to have rules for playing Warforged characters. (An Eberron book without Warforged is like a Star Wars movie without lightsabers.) "Changelings" are now Doppelgangers, and they're a shoe-in for inclusion in EPG; that's one new PC race. I speculate the other new PC race will be Kalashtar, though there's little evidence yea-or-nay at this point.
Also, let me refute two further points, ASAP -- despite that they already have been refuted, numerous times on these boards:
[indent]1.) Kalashtar don't need the Psionic power source to be a fully playable race. Elves didn't need the Primal power source in order to be playable, Genasi didn't need the Elemental power source in order to be playable, so why would anyone think that Kalashtar need the Psionic power source to be playable?
2.) Kalashtar and Deva are not at all similar, neither in term of look, nor outlook, nor capabilities, nor background. Their similarities are totally superficial; to call them the same is like saying that a Dwarf and Gnome are the same.[/indent]
>doctorhook> I doubt that WotC will reprint This article released last june. They might add new feats and a paragon path that doesn't already exist, however that's about all I see them doing.
I always felt that Kalashtar were shells, devoid of any real living essence of their own.
Nah, those are the Inspired. Humans who are bred and trained specifically to be optimal hosts for the Dreaming Dark. Absolute devotion, there.
Now while the Changeling (now Doppleganger) was, if you read the design notes for the system, originally called doppleganger and at the time WotC didn't want to change the monster or keep the pc race the same name to confuse people. Now, the changeling is no more and has become the doppleganger as originally intended in Ebberon - the default 4e doppleganger is what Eberron intended to have. Honestly, the monster had the same ability as the player race. The only thing it really had different was a whole bunch of attribute bonuses, and the ability to detect thoughts - something I bet we'll see the current doppleganger get in a racial paragon path. In fact I bet the racial paragon path will try to make the player race more like the monster race of 3.x, though there is very little needed to thematically make them more similar.
Now, why did I go into all the above for the doppleganger? One to give a bit of information, and because two, I believe that the doppleganger will NOT be in the Eberron Players guide. I believe this because there is, like the shifter, a very strong case (in my opinion of course) to make the a setting neutral player race, and because of the detect thoughts which could have a psychic leaning, that they are a great idea for the PHB3 which I believe will have he psychic power source. Essentially creating a psychic flavoured race that can imitate enemies by reading their thoughts. If incorporated into a racial paragon path you could make the doppleganger have some combat ability of mimicing a foe, a la Shang Sung for Mortal Kombat, if you need an example.
Now, another reason why this is my theory is that there is nothing in Eberron that screams dopplegangers are here and a major part of the world. There are no communities to my knowledge, no Major NPC's that dopplegangers to my knowledge. Nothing linking the races to be integral to the world such as Genasi and Drow are to the forgettable realms. Dopplegangers can be added to ANY setting both existing and homebrew incredibly easily because, cue dramatic music, they could have been there all along! They're very secretive don't have a kingdom, keep to themselves and have the natural ability to blend in so you'd never know they are there. Honestly, by their very nature of existence, very generic and unassuming - perfect for a PHB3 entry which is meant to exist in pretty much any setting.
Now, as to the warforged being reprinted - I expect just that because, the reason they got an article is because they are so INTEGRAL to Eberron, and WotC wanted people to start converting their 3.x games over to 4e as soon as possible, so they gave the stats for Warforged a very popular race option in the Eberron world. Kalashtar, got left out of the cold, and while thematic to the world, were not as important as warforged, so as to be printed in an article. I do feel that they are important enough to be their own race, but not enough to be given stats a year ago when 4e came out. Basically it was in WotC's best interest to get everyone possible to convert from 3.x to 4e as quickly as possible and the warforged article helped, I'm sure, many a group that plays Eberron to convert their existing campaign, or start new ones in the World of Eberron. Similar reason as to why the Artificer came out a very long time ago, when DDI was still free I do believe - it was that extra little incentive to switch Eberron to 4e NOW, rather than keep playing 3.x.
So, if there is to be 3 races in EPG - which is entirely possible, since it is not a give that setting books have to only include 3 races, and we make the assumption that both Warforged and Kalashtar will be 2 of those three what is left, if we also go with my changeling theory, to make up the third race?
* Inspired? They were mentioned before, but the fact that you can be possessed and placed in DM control at anytime seems to make them a poor choice.
* half-daelkyr? Probably best done as a feat tree similar to the Dhampyr.
* The dar? You don't know the Dar? Oh, I bet you do. In fact there are three distinct types of dar. Ghaal'dar, Ghul'dar, and Golin'dar. To use their non-Dhakanni names, Bugbear, Hobgoblin, and goblin. Of course, if only one of those three can exist as a player option, I'd suspect the Ghul'dar (Hobgoblin) to be an option. If you want to know why I think they have a good chance of appearing, read Don Bassingwaite's novel, The Doom of Kings of the Legacy of Dhakaan trilogy, set in the Eberron world and taking place around Dhakaan - a goblinoid nation, with several main characters of the story being Hobgoblins. Hobgoblins in Eberron are cool. I mean very, very cool. They even would have their own bard paragon path for Dur'kala - singers of the dirge which would require being bard, hobgoblin, and very possibly female. Hobgoblins in Eberron also play the bagpipes and ride tigers. Tigers, man. TIGERS. Also, people are clamoring for the inclusion of many a monster race, and hobgoblins might just help sell the book to non-Eberron players, in a way like the swordmage, genasi and drow did for the forgettable realms. Now, as much as regular goblins and bugbears go, they don't lend themselves as easy to player races, in Eberron even, as hobgoblins do. First off, bugbears are still very aggressive and the least common members of Dhakanni society. Goblins, are in the lowest position in Dhakanni society, and while numerous, they are limited to the majority of the non-military/notable professions, they are the farmers/peasants, lackeys, and all around generally not military but needed logistically, people of the goblin empire. Think of hobgoblins like Samurai, and goblins (and bugbears) as the peasants present in the empire. The samurai get more screen time, and all the prestige. Don't get me wrong, I want all three races to be in the book, but, if I have to choose only ONE of the 'dar, it will be the Ghul'dar
* Beyond that, there aren't any races that scream 'Needed in Eberron!'
So, my prediction (or perhaps baseless hope) is we will get stats for Warforged, Kalashtar, and Hobgoblin in the Eberron Player's Guide. This would, of course, make me have a geekgasm.
Actually, there's a significant difference there. I believe that kalashtar are born. Devas, on the other hand, just pop back into existence.
The deva is very divinely-flavored, whereas the kalshtar is much more psionic. As far as stats, though, I could see the devas stats being used for a race like the kalashtar. I also could see the deva being replaced by the kalashtar in Eberron due to the greater vagueness surrounding the gods and the divine. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that deva=kalashtar without some noticeable reflavoring of the kalashtar within the Eberron setting.
This is exactly backwards. Kalashtar are reflavoured Devas.
The only race feature that doesn't fit perfectly is the resistance to radiant damage, and that may fit once we know more about psionics.,
Devas are a strong concept to include in Eberron on their own.
Yeah, it's not like Angels in Eberron aren't divine. And there are no gods. And Rakshasa have a role that defines the setting, completely seperate to the Deva backround. Oh Wait...
As for the Deva & Kalashtar similarities, I could live with that. As written, I feel that the Deva is too divine and not psionic enough for the Kalashtar. However, having INT and WIS bonuses seems right for a psionic-friendly race. If it's true, I hope
1) that they take great steps to artistically distance the core look of devas from Eberron,
2) Give them feats to simulate their psionic background. Resist Psychic would seem more right than Necrotic or Radiant.
Sooo, you guys seriously can't see the similarities between "the humanoids who possess the knowledge of immortals" and, well, the other humanoids who possess the knowledge of immortals?
Well, when you consider this is the difference between 'knowledge of many past lives on the material plane' and 'vague memories of an immortal on the plane of dreams,' it isn't that similar.
The only race feature that doesn't fit perfectly is the resistance to radiant damage, and that may fit once we know more about psionics.
Well, just for comparison's sake, here are the kalashtar's 3e abilities:
* No ability modifiers.
* They are Humanoid (Psionic).
* Racial bonus on saves against mind-affecting spells and possession. "The kalashtar's dual spirits help them resist spells that target their minds."
* Racial bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate. "Kalashtar are masters of social interaction, influencing others through their commanding presence and subtle psychic powers."
* Immune to any spell that requires the target being able to dream. "Kalashtar sleep but they do not dream."
* Extra power points.
* Minklink. "You forge a telepathic bond with another creature...You can communicate telepathically through the bond even if you do not share a common language."
---
Conversely, we've got devas:
* Bonus to two mental stats.
* Immortal
* Racial bonus to History and Religion.
* Better at dodging attacks by injured creatures.
* Resistant to necrotic & radiant damage (not even psychic, btw).
* Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes "The dreamlike memories of your previous lives lend insight to aid you."
Yeah, it's not like Angels in Eberron aren't divine. And there are no gods. And Rakshasa have a role that defines the setting, completely seperate to the Deva backround. Oh Wait...
I think you're a bit misinformed...there's no proof the gods don't exist. If you consider the connection between the Rakshasa and the Silver Flame in Eberron, devas fitting in almost as-is isn't too far-fetched.
I always felt that Kalashtar were shells, devoid of any real living essence of their own. They weren't dream creatures, they were hosts. There was mention of the Dreaming Dark and Dal Quor by association appearing in the Eberron Campaign Guide in the Previews for may and beyond, which you can get to without being subscribed to DDI.
>doctorhook> I doubt that WotC will reprint This article released last june. They might add new feats and a paragon path that doesn't already exist, however that's about all I see them doing.
Unfortunately, they have in fact said they will be putting in a full Warforged write-up into the EPG, and that it will have differences from the Dragon article version. I say unfortunate because I think it's a space waster when we already have the article, but whatever.
Unfortunately, they have in fact said they will be putting in a full Warforged write-up into the EPG, and that it will have differences from the Dragon article version. I say unfortunate because I think it's a space waster when we already have the article, but whatever.
Yes, WotC SHOULD screw over people that play D&D but may not have regular access to the internet to download the article. Or people who don't have a lapttop or a printer. Sure, these people are in the minority, but lets give a whole bunch of paragon paths, feats for the races and not include the races. That's not going to bother anyone out there is it?
Really, I love the attitude: 'I have this, so everyone else should too'. Such a god damn arrogant position, if you ask me. Lets NEVER cater to people that are just getting into the hobby. In fact, lets do everything in our power to alienate them so they won't buy the product and WotC can close up shop and NO one gets any support of the god damn game.
I always felt that Kalashtar were shells, devoid of any real living essence of their own. They weren't dream creatures, they were hosts. There was mention of the Dreaming Dark and Dal Quor by association appearing in the Eberron Campaign Guide in the Previews for may and beyond, which you can get to without being subscribed to DDI.
>doctorhook> I doubt that WotC will reprint This article released last june. They might add new feats and a paragon path that doesn't already exist, however that's about all I see them doing.
Respectfully, that article is more than a year old, and at this point, it deserves an update. (Remember that it appeared the very day that 4E was released, meaning that it's not exactly current.) Furthermore, while signs indicate that the Warforged PC race will probably appear in Eberron Player's Guide, comments were made which indicate that the EPG Warforged may or may not have different abilities from those presented in Dragon Magazine.
As TBS pointed out, it doesn't make much sense to assume that players have access to a year-old .PDF file, even if it was available for free. More significantly, though, is the point I made before: given the iconic status of Warforged within the Eberron setting, what would a book called "Eberron Player's Guide" be if it didn't provide rules for playing Warforged characters? To most Eberron fans, the answer is, "A rip-off."
Well, when you consider this is the difference between 'knowledge of many past lives on the material plane' and 'vague memories of an immortal on the plane of dreams,' it isn't that similar.
Well, just for comparison's sake, here are the kalashtar's 3e abilities:
* No ability modifiers.
* They are Humanoid (Psionic).
* Racial bonus on saves against mind-affecting spells and possession. "The kalashtar's dual spirits help them resist spells that target their minds."
* Racial bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate. "Kalashtar are masters of social interaction, influencing others through their commanding presence and subtle psychic powers."
* Immune to any spell that requires the target being able to dream. "Kalashtar sleep but they do not dream."
* Extra power points.
* Minklink. "You forge a telepathic bond with another creature...You can communicate telepathically through the bond even if you do not share a common language."
---
Conversely, we've got devas:
* Bonus to two mental stats.
* Immortal
* Racial bonus to History and Religion.
* Better at dodging attacks by injured creatures.
* Resistant to necrotic & radiant damage (not even psychic, btw).
* Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes "The dreamlike memories of your previous lives lend insight to aid you."
...there's no proof the gods don't exist. If you consider the connection between the Rakshasa and the Silver Flame in Eberron, devas fitting in almost as-is isn't too far-fetched.
I completely agree, A_G, though I think you undersell the matter by comparing the mechanical differences of a 3.5E race and a 4E race which haven't yet ever appeared together in the same edition. (Though, I see the point you're trying to make.) From a flavour perspective as well, the differences between Deva and Kalashtar are obvious: Deva have a unique appearance, while Kalashtar appear Human; Deva reincarnate, while Kalashtar reproduce; Deva each have one soul, while Kalashtar each have two; Deva souls move on to new bodies after death, while Kalashtars' human souls face oblivion. Add to this the exceptional point you made about Kalashtar and Deva each having a perfect place to fit into the setting, entirely separate from one another. (Axiomatic Badger: what the hell do gods have to do with anything? Deva are Angels, not deities.)
I can only conclude that folks who feel Deva and Kalashtar are the same are woefully ignorant of at least one of those races.
Do you really think they're going to give us the Dreaming Dark without Kalashtar?
I remember at the Secrets of Eberron seminar back at Gen Con last year someone asking what are they going to do with kalashtar since they'll be out before psionics. Someone (can't remember if it was Keith Baker, James Wyatt, Stephen Schubert, or Jeremy Crawford who said it). That they don't see that as a problem. They spoke of the Path of Light, that this philosophy/religion would be expanded upon and mentioned that kalashtar would also make strong divine classes. Also I'll direct you here and this...
How will kalashtar work in the absence of psionics?
They are given a psionic flavor without confining them to a psionic class, much as current powers have a psionic flavor, dealing psychic damage.
This all seems to strongly indicate that yeah, Kalashtar will be a race appearing in Player's Guide to Eberron... I also wouldn't expect it to be Deva.
Respectfully, that article is more than a year old, and at this point, it deserves an update. (Remember that it appeared the very day that 4E was released, meaning that it's not exactly current.) Furthermore, while signs indicate that the Warforged PC race will probably appear in Eberron Player's Guide, comments were made which indicate that the EPG Warforged may or may not have different abilities from those presented in Dragon Magazine.
As TBS pointed out, it doesn't make much sense to assume that players have access to a year-old .PDF file, even if it was available for free. More significantly, though, is the point I made before: given the iconic status of Warforged within the Eberron setting, what would a book called "Eberron Player's Guide" be if it didn't provide rules for playing Warforged characters? To most Eberron fans, the answer is, "A rip-off."
As I mentioned in my previous post, why would WotC reprint an article that already covered the Warforged. I will note that the information from the article can also be found in the compendium(for those of you who are subscribed to DDI) and covers the same information either way. The Warforged will likely only get Feats & Paragon paths.
This is, however, derailing the thread so this is the last I will say about it.
As I mentioned in my previous post, why would WotC reprint an article that already covered the Warforged.
Respectfully, I'm pretty certain I answered that several times already, but here it is once more: Because Warforged are too important to the brand-identity of Eberron to not be included in the book.
I will note that the information from the article can also be found in the compendium(for those of you who are subscribed to DDI) and covers the same information either way. The Warforged will likely only get Feats & Paragon paths.
You may yet turn out to be correct, but at the moment, all official hints suggest that you will be wrong.
This is, however, derailing the thread so this is the last I will say about it.
I can appreciate that, and thank you. If you feel like responding to my post, please fork the thread.
I completely agree, A_G, though I think you undersell the matter by comparing the mechanical differences of a 3.5E race and a 4E race which haven't yet ever appeared together in the same edition.
Normally I wouldn't have done that, either, but the guy I was responding to said that all the deva abilities fit the kalashtar perfectly, save one. This seemed particularly odd, as other races ported over retained at least SOME of their old abilities.
I predict kalashtar will get a +2 in Bluff and Diplomacy, a mind link power that may do something beyond communication (allow you and the ally to flank an enemy without being on opposite sides?), resistance to psychic damage, a bonus on saves against charms and domination, and at least one racial feat that will make them extra-good at psychic attacks (the same way gnomes got racial feats to make them awesome at illusions).
I completely agree, A_G, though I think you undersell the matter by comparing the mechanical differences of a 3.5E race and a 4E race which haven't yet ever appeared together in the same edition. (Though, I see the point you're trying to make.) From a flavour perspective as well, the differences between Deva and Kalashtar are obvious: Deva have a unique appearance, while Kalashtar appear Human; Deva reincarnate, while Kalashtar reproduce; Deva each have one soul, while Kalashtar each have two; Deva souls move on to new bodies after death, while Kalashtars' human souls face oblivion. Add to this the exceptional point you made about Kalashtar and Deva each having a perfect place to fit into the setting, entirely separate from one another. (Axiomatic Badger: what the hell do gods have to do with anything? Deva are Angels, not deities.)
I can only conclude that folks who feel Deva and Kalashtar are the same are woefully ignorant of at least one of those races.
.....Yes because there has never been a race that has drastically changed from one setting to another. Incidently have you met my friends the drow?
They are from Forgotten Realms(and PoL) and are the cursed elven followers of the Spider Goddess Lolth who caused them rebel against Corellian many generations ago. Their dark skin is the sign of their curse. They live underground in a matriarchical society where backstabbing is expected and kindness is the easiest way to get killed. They seek to kill off all of their surface kin.
I have some other friends who by some random chance are also named the Drow. They are from Eberron. I don't know them too well, but from what I understand they are a tribal people who live in jungles. They're a lot like elves, but they aren't really related and they don't really hate each other or anything. They worship some scorpion diety.
I wonder how they are going to stat up the Eberron Drow? I mean the two clearly aren't the same and since they have very little in common and all races are identical accross all campaign settings. It sure is going to be interesting to have two races called Drow in Eberron. I mean they can't change the names or anythign like that.......okay that's enough sarcasm for one post(assuming there can be such a thing).
Things change between campaign settings, and mechanically a good argument can be made that Deva stats could work for Kalashtar. Is that what they are going to do? *shrugs* But it does work. Personally, I think Kalashtar would probably work better as a bloodline feat, but meh that's just my opinion.
And before someone tries to argue that they don't change names between settings, jsut remember that FR High Elves are Eladrin in most other settings.
So don't expect 4th edition Eberron to be radically different from 3.5 Eberron.
Now don't get me wrong, Eberron likes to mess with things, look at what it did to the drow, no Lloth, live in jungles...
But Eberron will stay internally consistant.
And before someone tries to argue that they don't change names between settings, jsut remember that FR High Elves are Eladrin in most other settings.
High Elves are not Eladrin in most other settings. . . High Elves became Eladrin in all of Dungeons and Dragons. In personal settings you may still refer to them as High Elves, but according to the FRCG and FRPG there is no such race as High Elves.
When I remember looking forward to Eberron in 3.x, I was excited about the Kalashtar, Warforged, and the Shifters not so much about the changeling. Now here we are in 4e and we have Shifters in the PH2, and Changelings and Warforged in the MM. All I am missing is the Kalashtar.
The Deva have a perfect fit and connection to the Silver Flame, as posted above, and their ties to Rakshasa. I see there origin being flavored a little to fit the setting a little better, just as the Drow were re flavored from the FRs Underdark Drow.
I forsee the Kalashtar being in the Eborron Players Guide.
-Nerp
I've been thinking about releasing them before psionic classes are released, and I think now that it's a good idea. They can have stats that will be good for psionic classes without feeling shoehorned into psionic roles from the beginning. Instead, those classes will come along and the kalashtar will happen to fit them well, like what dwarves and elves got in PH2.
I'd expect them to get a bonus to Wisdom, if only because I expect monks will use Wisdom (we'll see soon!). I'd also expect the other attribute to be mental (perhaps Charisma, to differentiate them from the devas, and because of the social/mindlink aspect of their psionic powers) because they don't seem, as a race, to be physically exceptional in any area.
One thing that might not have been considered for the Eberron book - additional Shifter races? Maybe Beasthide Shifter (CON/WIS) and Dreamsight Shifter (CHA/WIS). It's not as likely, though.
Highly unlikely. Beasthide is already done as a feat in the PHB2 rather than a full different shifter "race."
Warforged may very well be in there with updated rules since the Warforged article, especially in regards to component and embedded items.
The MM Doppleganger is a changeling and not the old style doppleganger. If it shows up it will simply be a full PC write up to replace the NPC write up in the MM.
I think Kalashtar are likely to be in the EPG as opposed to leaving them to whichever PHB has Psionics in them.
If i were to bet money, I would say Warforged and Kalashtar would be in the EPG. Dopplegangers would likely either get a "Playing Dopplegangers" Dragon article or they would show up in a future PHB.
Or they may surprise us with 3 races in the book.
.....Yes because there has never been a race that has drastically changed from one setting to another. Incidently have you met my friends the drow?
They are from Forgotten Realms(and PoL) and are the cursed elven followers of the Spider Goddess Lolth who caused them rebel against Corellian many generations ago. Their dark skin is the sign of their curse. They live underground in a matriarchical society where backstabbing is expected and kindness is the easiest way to get killed. They seek to kill off all of their surface kin.
I have some other friends who by some random chance are also named the Drow. They are from Eberron. I don't know them too well, but from what I understand they are a tribal people who live in jungles. They're a lot like elves, but they aren't really related and they don't really hate each other or anything. They worship some scorpion diety.
I wonder how they are going to stat up the Eberron Drow? I mean the two clearly aren't the same and since they have very little in common and all races are identical accross all campaign settings. It sure is going to be interesting to have two races called Drow in Eberron. I mean they can't change the names or anythign like that.......okay that's enough sarcasm for one post(assuming there can be such a thing).
Things change between campaign settings, and mechanically a good argument can be made that Deva stats could work for Kalashtar. Is that what they are going to do? *shrugs* But it does work. Personally, I think Kalashtar would probably work better as a bloodline feat, but meh that's just my opinion.
And before someone tries to argue that they don't change names between settings, jsut remember that FR High Elves are Eladrin in most other settings.
Ranadiel, I know you're a cool dude, so don't take this personally:
I highlighted the part you didn't need to say, because it was obvious; you don't know Eberron Drow very well.
Drow in Eberron look the exact same as Drow from other settings, except that they dress differently and ritually tattoo themselves. In Eberron, other races dress differently too; for example, Eberron Dwarves usually trim their beards into the latest styles, Eberron Elves often paint their faces to resemble corpses, and Eberron Halflings like to wear masks made from dinosaur bones. None of this makes these races into different races.
Drow in Eberron behave similarly to Drow in other settings, except insofar as the setting discards alignment assumptions -- like every other race in Eberron, an individual Drow is as likely to be good as he is evil. Eberron Drow are often treacherous, manipulative, and deceitful, even when they aren't malicious or hostile; this behaviour is very similar to that of Drow in other settings. In Eberron, other races manifest their "racial personalities" in a uniquely Eberron manner as well; for example, Eberron Orcs are often as "uncivilized", "savage", and "primitive" as they are in other settings, but rather than manifesting this as rampaging members of a horde, they're often devoted followers of druidic and shamanic Primal traditions who defend Eberron at least as often as they threaten it. Neither Orcs nor Drow are presented as distinct races because of this.
Vulkoor versus Lolth? You're going to use the fact that Eberron Drow are obsessed with scorpions instead of spiders as "proof" that they're separate races? That's a cultural difference, and nothing more.
(Note that what we've established here is that the differences between Eberron races and their "normal" setting counterparts are limited and superficial. At their core, Drow are the same race in both FR and Eberron. This is an example of Deep Similarities, Superficial Differences.)
Since we've established that you really don't know much at all about Eberron Drow, why should anyone believe that you know much at all about Kalashtar, a uniquely Eberron race? The answer is that we shouldn't, Ranadiel, because you've already proven how little you understand Kalashtar.
Did you notice in our discussion above how none of the races are physiologically any different between their "normal" version and their Eberron version? Let's start by comparing those between Deva and Kalashtar:
- PH2 pages 8 and 9 explicitly says that Deva are immortal, and that upon death, they are reborn. Pages 16 through 18 of 3E's Eberron Campaign Setting detail the Kalashtar race, and across those three pages, not only does the word "immortal" never appear, but also the text never even implies that Kalashtar are immortal.
- PH2 says that Deva do not have children, and that when they die, Deva are simply reborn in a new adult body at some holy site. ECS says that Kalashtar are a "race that breeds true".
- PH2 says that Deva are most distinguishable from humans by the patterns of light and dark colour that naturally appear on their skin. ECS says that Kalashtar appear Human, with subtly more angular features.
Hmm, so they aren't very similar physically. Perhaps their racial abilities are similar?
- PH2 says that Devas have a single soul -- an Angel's soul -- which simply reincarnates into a newly-formed Deva body upon death. ECS tells us that Kalashtar have two souls -- one Human soul and one soul of an aberrant horror from the plane of Dal Quor -- which are permanently merged into a single spirit, and suggests that both souls pass on to oblivion upon death of the body.
- PH2 says that Deva gain a bonus to a single roll once per encounter, thanks to their memories of past lives. ECS says Kalashtar can forge a telepathic link with another willing, intelligent creature within 30 feet for 1/round per character level of the Kalashtar, through which the two creatures can communicate even without a common language, thanks to the Kalashtar's natural psionic ability.
As you can see, there's hardly any deep similarities between Deva and Kalashtar. One could call a comparison of Deva and Kalashtar an example of Superficial Similarities, Deep Differences.
Add all this to the fact that Kalashtar and Deva can each fill their own interesting, totally unique, and utterly unfilled niche in Eberron; Kalashtars' niche in the setting is well established, and Deva can not only fill all the roles that Aasimar used to serve, but also strongly develop the nature of Eberron's interactions with the Angels (and Angels vs. Rakshasas angle) that exist within the setting, whose own role was never deeply elaborated upon.
Or they may surprise us with 3 races in the book.
Preliminary signs point to this, but FWIW, I dig your picks!
Ranadiel, I know you're a cool dude, so don't take this personally:
I highlighted the part you didn't need to say, because it was obvious; you don't know Eberron Drow very well.
Drow in Eberron look the exact same as Drow from other settings, except that they dress differently and ritually tattoo themselves. In Eberron, other races dress differently too; for example, Eberron Dwarves usually trim their beards into the latest styles, Eberron Elves often paint their faces to resemble corpses, and Eberron Halflings like to wear masks made from dinosaur bones. None of this makes these races into different races.
Drow in Eberron behave similarly to Drow in other settings, except insofar as the setting discards alignment assumptions -- like every other race in Eberron, an individual Drow is as likely to be good as he is evil. Eberron Drow are often treacherous, manipulative, and deceitful, even when they aren't malicious or hostile; this behaviour is very similar to that of Drow in other settings. In Eberron, other races manifest their "racial personalities" in a uniquely Eberron manner as well; for example, Eberron Orcs are often as "uncivilized", "savage", and "primitive" as they are in other settings, but rather than manifesting this as rampaging members of a horde, they're often devoted followers of druidic and shamanic Primal traditions who defend Eberron at least as often as they threaten it. Neither Orcs nor Drow are presented as distinct races because of this.
Vulkoor versus Lolth? You're going to use the fact that Eberron Drow are obsessed with scorpions instead of spiders as "proof" that they're separate races? That's a cultural difference, and nothing more.
(Note that what we've established here is that the differences between Eberron races and their "normal" setting counterparts are limited and superficial. At their core, Drow are the same race in both FR and Eberron. This is an example of Deep Similarities, Superficial Differences.)
You didn't establish that. The core identity of the Drow is that they are the cursed cousins of elves/eladrin who live under ground. They have a different identity in Eberron. Who cares if they look the same? Did you notice that 3ed Genasi and 4th edition Genasi don't look identical? That haflings gained about a foot during the edition change? Does that mean that they are different races?Since we've established that you really don't know much at all about Eberron Drow, why should anyone believe that you know much at all about Kalashtar, a uniquely Eberron race? The answer is that we shouldn't, Ranadiel, because you've already proven how little you understand Kalashtar.
Did you notice in our discussion above how none of the races are physiologically any different between their "normal" version and their Eberron version? Let's start by comparing those between Deva and Kalashtar:
- PH2 pages 8 and 9 explicitly says that Deva are immortal, and that upon death, they are reborn. Pages 16 through 18 of 3E's Eberron Campaign Setting detail the Kalashtar race, and across those three pages, not only does the word "immortal" never appear, but also the text never even implies that Kalashtar are immortal.
- PH2 says that Deva do not have children, and that when they die, Deva are simply reborn in a new adult body at some holy site. ECS says that Kalashtar are a "race that breeds true".
- PH2 says that Deva are most distinguishable from humans by the patterns of light and dark colour that naturally appear on their skin. ECS says that Kalashtar appear Human, with subtly more angular features.
Hmm, so they aren't very similar physically. Perhaps their racial abilities are similar?
- PH2 says that Devas have a single soul -- an Angel's soul -- which simply reincarnates into a newly-formed Deva body upon death. ECS tells us that Kalashtar have two souls -- one Human soul and one soul of an aberrant horror from the plane of Dal Quor -- which are permanently merged into a single spirit, and suggests that both souls pass on to oblivion upon death of the body.
- PH2 says that Deva gain a bonus to a single roll once per encounter, thanks to their memories of past lives. ECS says Kalashtar can forge a telepathic link with another willing, intelligent creature within 30 feet for 1/round per character level of the Kalashtar, through which the two creatures can communicate even without a common language, thanks to the Kalashtar's natural psionic ability.
As you can see, there's hardly any deep similarities between Deva and Kalashtar. One could call a comparison of Deva and Kalashtar an example of Superficial Similarities, Deep Differences.
Add all this to the fact that Kalashtar and Deva can each fill their own interesting, totally unique, and utterly unfilled niche in Eberron; Kalashtars' niche in the setting is well established, and Deva can not only fill all the roles that Aasimar used to serve, but also strongly develop the nature of Eberron's interactions with the Angels (and Angels vs. Rakshasas angle) that exist within the setting, whose own role was never deeply elaborated upon.
Reread my post I never said that the fluff between the two races was similair. I said that the stats could work as a way to mechanically represent Kalashtar. I never said it was the best or the only way way, only that it would be a valid way. The stats of the Deva appear to be ones good for psionic classes, and the racial ability of memory of a thousand lifetimes works well. Only for them it will come from their second soul rather than from their past incarnations. As for the telepathic link? Just because a race had an ability for 3rd edition doesn't mean they will or will not have it in 4th edition((half)- elvish immunity to sleep anyone?).
Really I think if nothing else you can expect one of the following three to be what happens to Kalashtar:
-They simply use Deva stats(no idea on what their appearance becomes)
-They are a unique race, but their appearance is totally redone to make them have a more unique look(from the images and the description I can find they seem to have as unique of an appearance as 3rd edition Aasimar)
-They are turned into a bloodline feat
Yes, WotC SHOULD screw over people that play D&D but may not have regular access to the internet to download the article. Or people who don't have a lapttop or a printer. Sure, these people are in the minority, but lets give a whole bunch of paragon paths, feats for the races and not include the races. That's not going to bother anyone out there is it?
Really, I love the attitude: 'I have this, so everyone else should too'. Such a god damn arrogant position, if you ask me. Lets NEVER cater to people that are just getting into the hobby. In fact, lets do everything in our power to alienate them so they won't buy the product and WotC can close up shop and NO one gets any support of the god damn game.
And I find the attitude that I have to pay for something I already got for free just as arrogant. Not to mention blowing the whole thing out of proportion, and getting belligerent for no reason. Do calm down, mkay?
[*]PH2 says that Deva do not have children, and that when they die, Deva are simply reborn in a new adult body at some holy site. ECS says that Kalashtar are a "race that breeds true".
Actually, Deva do have children. Just not with each other.
Actually, Deva do have children. Just not with each other.
Where did you come by this information? I have not seen anything to suggest they can breed at all, from my readings I infered they were sterile as a race. Which is a major re-fluf, more so then underdark spider drow to forest Scorpion Drow, seeing as the main concept of Kalasthar is the fact that they have an ancinent soul that is fractured and living on in all its desendants. When they breed with non Kalashtar if the child shares a sex with the Kalashtar parent then they are Kalashtar if they don’t they are the other race.
Where did you come by this information? I have not seen anything to suggest they can breed at all, from my readings I infered they were sterile as a race. Which is a major re-fluf, more so then underdark spider drow to forest Scorpion Drow, seeing as the main concept of Kalasthar is the fact that they have an ancinent soul that is fractured and living on in all its desendants. When they breed with non Kalashtar if the child shares a sex with the Kalashtar parent then they are Kalashtar if they don’t they are the other race.
Ecology of the Deva, Dragon #374. Deva can have children with non-Deva, and the descendants of such unions have a semi-celestial heritage, resulting in a Bloodline feat like the Dhampyr.
Ecology of the Deva, Dragon #374. Deva can have children with non-Deva, and the descendants of such unions have a semi-celestial heritage, resulting in a Bloodline feat like the Dhampyr.
How did I miss that, I thought I read that entire article, I guess I got to go back and read it again. Sorry, well taking that in to account the Deva are just a little closer to being Kalashtar.
I still feel they will be unique and not just reflavored Deva.
Sidenote: I wonder if 4Eberron will push the whole Vulkoor thing that hard, as it seemed to me that Vulkoor was just one of many "spirits" that the drow tribes revere, and it got special attention in 3e because of all the insectile Lolth-reliant mechanics.
That is true in Eberron, too.
The difference is that Drow were created by the Giants rather than by Lolth.
And although the Vulkoori don't live in the Underdark, there are drow that do: the shadow-worshipping Umbragen. And besides, I'd consider the 'cursed elves' thing much more important to drow than 'living underground'.
I said that the stats could work as a way to mechanically represent Kalashtar. I never said it was the best or the only way way, only that it would be a valid way.
I disagree that it is valid.
While the stat bonuses of Devas work for Kalashtar, and Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes can fit (sort of), their other abilities make no sense for Kalashtar.
Looking at them one by one:
+2 Int/+2 Wis: No problems here.
Languages: No connection to Kalashtar fluff at all
Skills Bonuses: Again, no connection.
Astral Majesty: Kalashtar have no astral connection, nor angelic presence. Nothing at all about the race suggests they become more intimidating when the chips are down.
Astral Resistance: Even worse than Astral Majesty. No connection can be made here.
Immortal Origin: Kalashtar aren't immortal or even otherwordly.
Memory of A Thousand Lifetimes: Takes a brief comment about kalashtar 'dreams' and elevates it to the position of most-important-racial ability. While the fluff can be changed to make it work, it is a far too prominent position to represent the ability to see Quori memories in their sleep.
And that's not including racial feats, some of which make even less sense.
Meanwhile, we're lacking two things which pretty much define what a kalashtar is all about:
-Representation of a kalashtar's strong personality and ability to influence people.
-Representation of a kalashtar's innate psychic powers, particularly with telepathy.
So it's completely inadequate.
If this EPG did take this route, it'd have to spend so long reflavouring everything (and often in extremely convoluted ways), that they might as well just print a new kalashtar race.
Githzerai stats work much better than Deva stats, but no one seems to be suggesting that Kalashtar should be reflavoured giths. If you think about why, you'll realise why so many people are against reflavouring Devas.
So let's look at the Deva again.
Show
Ability Bonuses: No problems here.
Languages: No reason not to have them. Completely fluff-neutral.
Skills: History comes from longevity. Religion comes from them having created thier own religion, of which every member of the race is a follower.
Astral Majesty: Fluff-neutral. No problems.
Astral Resistance: Okay, this is a bit of a problem. Could be a side effect of the Path of Light, or if the Quori use Radiant/necrotic damage then all the better. I can also see a sidebar swapping this for resist Psionic.
Immortal Origin: Works if we make a single assumption: That Quori Are Immortals. If this is true, then Kalashtar simply inherit the type. Once again, a sidebar could give them a maximum age, but since 3.5 kalashtar are long lived in any case, this could be refluffed anyway.
Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes: Can be refluffed as either memories from the Quori, memories from the Quori's other hosts, or simple psionic ability.
It also covers the 3.5's bonuses to skills/saves.
Ability Bonuses: No problems here.
Languages: No reason not to have them. Completely fluff-neutral.
Skills: History comes from longevity. Religion comes from them having created thier own religion, of which every member of the race is a follower.
Astral Majesty: Fluff-neutral. No problems.
Astral Resistance: Okay, this is a bit of a problem. Could be a side effect of the Path of Light, or if the Quori use Radiant/necrotic damage then all the better. I can also see a sidebar swapping this for resist Psionic.
Immortal Origin: Works if we make a single assumption: That Quori Are Immortals. If this is true, then Kalashtar simply inherit the type. Once again, a sidebar could give them a maximum age, but since 3.5 kalashtar are long lived in any case, this could be refluffed anyway.
Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes: Can be refluffed as either memories from the Quori, memories from the Quori's other hosts, or simple psionic ability.
It also covers the 3.5's bonuses to skills/saves.
Skills: History comes from longevity. Religion comes from them having created thier own religion, of which every member of the race is a follower.
Kalashtar come from an extremely isolationist society, and as a culture unto themselves have existed for a mere fraction of the time of the other races. They are a young race, and shouldn't be well clued on the history of the world. Longevity of individuals isn't enough - even elves don't get a bonus.
As for the religion, if everyone follows the same one, shouldn't that make them less well educated on religion in general? Why would a kalashtar be more likely to know something about the Sovereign Host?
Astral Resistance: Okay, this is a bit of a problem. Could be a side effect of the Path of Light, or if the Quori use Radiant/necrotic damage then all the better. I can also see a sidebar swapping this for resist Psionic.
But not all kalashtar follow the Path of Light, so that explanation doesn't work. Guess we'll have to wait and see about the quori stats.
[/SBLOCK]
Devas used to be angels, kalashtar used to be dreams. Again, a minor difference.
You don't think there's a major difference between angels and dreams?
So what we have here is a pair of races with fluff and abilities that are 95% identical. All we need is for the EPG to provide the final 5%.
They're clearly not 95% identical. You said yourself that at least two of the deva's major abilities, as well as its looks, need to be reflavoured. That's not even to mention cultural differences. Much, much more than 5% if you ask me.
Apply MoaTL to diplomacy, bluff ect. Suddenly they're very good at influencing people.
Yep, fair point.
Still leaves out telepathy, though.
Umm, no, they really don't.
Sure they do. In fact, I can do it with less reflavouring than you did for the deva:
Githzerai:
Ability Scores: No problems here. Kalashtar are both highly perceptive (though psychic ability), and have a long history of acrobatic traditions, since they live in a martial monastic culture and practice the Path of Shadows.
Languages: Quori might speak Deep Speech in 4E, so it might work. If not, then change it to whatever language Quori speak.
Skill Bonuses: Fine. See 'ability scores', coupled with the fact that kalashtar appear as physically perfect humans.
Danger Sense: No changes needed, not even to fluff. Precognition is a psychic ability, after all.
Iron Mind: No changes needed, not even to fluff.
So instead of a sidebar needing to refluff and rename MoaTL and astral majesty, as well as changing astral resistance and explaining how a creature with the immortal origin actually isn't (so that's all four the Deva's abilities that need addressing), all I need is a note changing 'Deep Speech' for 'Quori'.
Your side bar will be almost as long as a new racial entry itself!
Now think about the fluff for githzerai.
Githzerai have extraplanar origins (created by Mind Flayers vs. created by Quori), are monastic (Adaran traditions in Kalashtar), live in a largely hostile environment (Adar within Sarlona for Kalashtar), and have a long standing conflict with a race of similar physiology, but evil (Inspired!).
You can't tell me there's no connection there.
But has it not been inferred by the Infernal one that Kalashtar are confirmed for
First of all, comparing racial features between editions is mostly pointless. I mean, Aasimar had a bonus to Cha and could cast light.
And Aasimar sucked so hard they got kicked out of the playground and were replaced by Devas. Which leads me to another question - if devas are replacing the aasimar in (probably) all D&D settings, why would they also be used as kalashtar in Eberron? Aasimar were a part of Eberron, about as much as the gith.
And Aasimar sucked so hard they got kicked out of the playground and were replaced by Devas. Which leads me to another question - if devas are replacing the aasimar in (probably) all D&D settings, why would they also be used as kalashtar in Eberron? Aasimar were a part of Eberron, about as much as the gith.
But they aren't replacing the Aasimar, they are replacing the niche of a "race that is born" that the Aasimar used to fill. Aasimar are probably best represented in 4th edition through the bloodline feat that was introduced in the Deva article in Dragon last month.
That is true in Eberron, too.
The difference is that Drow were created by the Giants rather than by Lolth.
And although the Vulkoori don't live in the Underdark, there are drow that do: the shadow-worshipping Umbragen. And besides, I'd consider the 'cursed elves' thing much more important to drow than 'living underground'.
The Drow weren't created by Lolth. Not in any setting. They were corrupted/changed by Lolth, but they already existed as normal Elves.
The Drow weren't created by Lolth. Not in any setting. They were corrupted/changed by Lolth, but they already existed as normal Elves.
That doesn't count as creation?
Lolth created the drow by corrupting and changing regular elves.
Eberron's giants also created the drow by corrupting and changing regular elves.
I wasn't trying to imply creation from nothing, in fact the point is that both drow in Eberron and drow in other settings were created from elves by a corrupting force, though I guess I could have been clearer.
Kalashtar do NOT have "two souls, one of which reincarnates" They have one soul composed of two entities...one of which is shared with all other kalashtar of that bloodline. Nothing about them reincarnates...ever...at all (unless you used reincarnate on them like anyone else).
A group of Quori fled Dal Quor and did the Trill Joining thing on a psychic level instead of a physical one. The result is that they're really one soul with two parts, in a way. When the recipient humans began to make babies, the quori spirits began to "thin out" among their decendants, even though each "human part" of the soul was brand new. The don't have any sort of real memory of the quori's previous life in Dal Quor, nor can they commune with their collective bloodline quori spirit...without special training anyway. The quori are too "diluted"
The inspired are possessed by the other evil quori, but they're not "shells" per se. They have spirits and wills of their own, they're just specially breed and taught to accept the possession with no difficulty. Unlike the kalashtar, there's no merging at all. But, even an unpossessed inspired is still far more intelligent and dangerous than any normal human.
Nothing at all about either race has ANYTHING in common with the Deva...save the social specialty that a few other races have in common already. If those races haven't gotten merged or replaced, then the Kalashtar aren't going to be merged or replaced. They're pretty iconic to Eberron, along with the Warforged. Heck...goblinoids are more important in Eberron than Changelings. Changelings were a side-note race, with no actual purpose. The only thing that made them unique was that it gave people a chance to play watered-down doppelgangers...which are available now anyway. The closest there will be to merging is that Kalashtar, Elan, and Inspired might all end up basically the same, and therefore get merged and that's it.
Oh...and they aren't likely to change physical appearance from setting to setting...just the culture. You're not going to find settings where dragonborn females finally don't have boobs...all dragonborn finally have tails instead of tieflings...and deva finally stop being that sissy purple color, even though they should never have been, because Donut and Doc are bad enough.
Kalashtar = Deva? Nevermind...
@ Doctorhook: What "Angels vs Rakshasas" angle? In eberron they are Completely unrelated. Angels inhabit the plane of the sky, rakshasas are the primal force of evil in the world, mixing the worst parts of demons and primordials. Add to this the fact that there's nothing whatsoever stopping angels from wandering around the world (Rendering the Deva's pact with primal spirits pointless), and the deva suddenly has no reason to exist.
The fact that there's no expressed relationship between Angels and Rakshasa is precisely my point. In Eberron, Rakshasas are ubiquitous, and given the relationship between Rakshasas and Devas, this allows for a natural place for Deva to fit into the setting. In Eberron, Angels also have the potential to be fairly common, thanks to Syrania, Radiant Idols, and the manifest zone in Sharn -- though the exact role that these elements play in Eberron was never detailed in depth in 3.5E; thus Devas could also naturally fill a niche as "earthbound angels" within Eberron. Given both of these huge story angles upon which Eberron Devas could be based, (to make no mention of Aasimar's former role in the setting, nor to the celestials of Shavarath, whose fate in 4E is currently unknown), why should Devas also replace an entirely separate race whose fluff is both highly developed and fundamental to the setting concept?
To suggest replacing Kalashtar is heresy to Eberron fans. One might as well suggest to a Forgotten Realms fan that Drow are redundant with Shades and Shadar-Kai -- they're both shadowy, evil-ish, and dark-skinned, right?
The fact that there's no expressed relationship between Angels and Rakshasa is precisely my point. In Eberron, Rakshasas are ubiquitous, and given the relationship between Rakshasas and Devas, this allows for a natural place for Deva to fit into the setting. In Eberron, Angels also have the potential to be fairly common, thanks to Syrania, Radiant Idols, and the manifest zone in Sharn -- though the exact role that these elements play in Eberron was never detailed in depth in 3.5E; thus Devas could also naturally fill a niche as "earthbound angels" within Eberron. Given both of these huge story angles upon which Eberron Devas could be based, (to make no mention of Aasimar's former role in the setting, nor to the celestials of Shavarath, whose fate in 4E is currently unknown), why should Devas also replace an entirely separate race whose fluff is both highly developed and fundamental to the setting concept?
To suggest replacing Kalashtar is heresy to Eberron fans. One might as well suggest to a Forgotten Realms fan that Drow are redundant with Shades and Shadar-Kai -- they're both shadowy, evil-ish, and dark-skinned, right?
Don't bring up what happened to FR...or how much the butchering of the Kalashtar would infuriate Eberron fans. That'll just bring the FR fanboys out howling for exactly that sort of revenge.
Personally, I don't think they "needed" the spellplague or to bring back Abeir. But, the did need to get rid of Maztica and the lands like it...they needed to rework the cosmology...and they needed to make magic in FR function like magic in every other setting. That's just how 4e is. The spellplague and a 100 year advancement with the partial return of Abeir just seemed to them the easiest and most convenient way to do it.
In Eberron's case, it was already the closest to 4e of anything anyway. It and the TOB are probably the very foundations of the desire to create 4e. Eberron is already going to get the core cosmology, and that's going to mess things up enough as it is. I'm not certain what will happen to Eberron's gods. FR had some deific overlap with other settings, whereas Eberron's pantheon was completely unique.
Ya know...it just occured to me...if you people think RRoT is a bad feat, just wait til you get a load of whatever they cook up for the Silver Flame. That's just begging to be a broken-as-hell Channel Divinity power.
Don't bring up what happened to FR...or how much the butchering of the Kalashtar would infuriate Eberron fans. That'll just bring the FR fanboys out howling for exactly that sort of revenge.
Personally, I don't think they "needed" the spellplague or to bring back Abeir. But, the did need to get rid of Maztica and the lands like it...they needed to rework the cosmology...and they needed to make magic in FR function like magic in every other setting. That's just how 4e is. The spellplague and a 100 year advancement with the partial return of Abeir just seemed to them the easiest and most convenient way to do it.
In Eberron's case, it was already the closest to 4e of anything anyway. It and the TOB are probably the very foundations of the desire to create 4e. Eberron is already going to get the core cosmology, and that's going to mess things up enough as it is. I'm not certain what will happen to Eberron's gods. FR had some deific overlap with other settings, whereas Eberron's pantheon was completely unique.
Ya know...it just occured to me...if you people think RRoT is a bad feat, just wait til you get a load of whatever they cook up for the Silver Flame. That's just begging to be a broken-as-hell Channel Divinity power.
You make a good point about FR and Eberrron-revenge.
As far as Eberron's pantheons go, I can't see any reason they need to change at all, although given a some of the new races, I wonder if some of the peripheral religions will receive more or less attention than they did in 3.5E. (I hear that The Reforged are appearing in the Eberron Campaign Setting, for example.) Regarding the cosmology though, I'm curious to see what will happen; I almost want most of the planes to be Astral Dominions (or better yet, just "Dominions" of wherever they fit; "Elemental Dominions", "Shadow Dominions", "Fey Dominions", and "Aberrant Dominions"). Eberron's cosmology is an important part of the setting, so I really hope they treat it with care.
Change between editions is the same as change between settings now? My point was that Drow do have the same identity in Eberron as they do in core; they're dangerous, hostile, arachnid-worshiping elf-cousins who live in the dark -- the facts that the arachnids they worship are scorpions instead of spiders and that the darkness they live in is deep, dark, magical jungle rather than deep, dark, magical underground is immaterial and superficial.
...It's pretty clear to me that you and I aren't talking about the same things, because I don't understand what you're trying to say here, nor do I think you understood what I meant with my post. Regardless, it's not so important anymore because there are other points to make, R.
Reread my post I never said that the fluff between the two races was similair. I said that the stats could work as a way to mechanically represent Kalashtar. I never said it was the best or the only way way, only that it would be a valid way. The stats of the Deva appear to be ones good for psionic classes, and the racial ability of memory of a thousand lifetimes works well. Only for them it will come from their second soul rather than from their past incarnations. As for the telepathic link? Just because a race had an ability for 3rd edition doesn't mean they will or will not have it in 4th edition((half)- elvish immunity to sleep anyone?).
Really I think if nothing else you can expect one of the following three to be what happens to Kalashtar:
-They simply use Deva stats(no idea on what their appearance becomes)
-They are a unique race, but their appearance is totally redone to make them have a more unique look(from the images and the description I can find they seem to have as unique of an appearance as 3rd edition Aasimar)
-They are turned into a bloodline feat
When you advocated that Kalashtar be represented as Deva, you implied that they would share fluff; you didn't have to say it explicitly. As for Kalashtar's appearance in 4E, you're absolutely right that it could change -- but changing to look like Deva is highly unlikely IMHO.
Overall Ranadiel, your points in the paragraph above aren't necessarily invalid, but they do overlook an important aspect that keeps getting you into arguments about this with Kalashtar fans: you (and other "Deva = Kalashtar"-ites) implicitly undersell the importance of Kalashtar to Eberron. Warforged are iconic to Eberron, but Kalashtar are at the core of Eberron's original concept, so to suggest that Kalashtar be replaces or supplanted by anything is tantamount to suggesting, for example, that we combine Elf stats to represent Dwarves -- it's out-and-out heresy to anyone familiar with the setting, and not even a subtle, peripheral heresy, because it betrays a total misunderstanding of a major facet of the Eberron setting.
Would Deva make good Kalashtar? Maybe, and if that's the point you're trying to make, I think I can see where you're coming from. However, the notion that Kalashtar should lose any of their identity to being replaced by Deva is what's offensive, especially when one notes the strong potential role that Deva could play in Eberron entirely separate of Kalashtar. Why amalgamate two races who each fill a dramatically separate role in the setting?
I'm still firmly of the opinion that anyone suggesting that Deva and Kalashtar should be combined entirely misunderstands at least one of those races.
I can't understand why anyone would want deva and kalashtar to merge, anyway. Surely another racial option, particularly when it would take up no extra space in a book, can only be a good thing?
Wise words, doc.
I can't understand why anyone would want deva and kalashtar to merge, anyway. Surely another racial option, particularly when it would take up no extra space in a book, can only be a good thing?
Thanks, Trolls!
for your thoughts.I think Kalashtar are likely to be in the EPG as opposed to leaving them to whichever PHB has Psionics in them.
If i were to bet money, I would say Warforged and Kalashtar would be in the EPG. Dopplegangers would likely either get a "Playing Dopplegangers" Dragon article or they would show up in a future PHB.
Or they may surprise us with 3 races in the book.
Ooo... I was so close! They surprised us with three. Kalashtar, Warforged and Dopplegangers are in the EPG.
Guess I lost my own bet. :P
Ooo... I was so close! They surprised us with three. Kalashtar, Warforged and Dopplegangers are in the EPG.
Guess I lost my own bet. :P
Technically, it wasn't totally a surprise, Dragon. Earlier this year they hinted that the EPG would have rules for "two new races, not including Warforged"; the smart bet was always on those two other races being Kalashtar and Doppelgangers. You were spot on, except that you missed this hint that there probably would be three races.
Worse than this stupidity about Kalashtar being Deva though, I'm also glad we're done with the silliness of, "w3 aLr3aDy H4v WARFROGEDZ!! w3 dUn n33D +h3M pU81i5hed aGaYn!1!" I'm almost actually offended by the notion that anyone would think that it's a good idea to publish a book called "Eberron Player's Guide" without including rules for playing Warforged characters; I can't honestly imagine that anyone who knows anything about Eberron would suggest that.
Thank goodness that's all over with!