Few questions:
1. Would you want to see Kara-Tur in 4e? What would be required for you to say yes?
2. Did you play the original Kara-Tur under AD&D? Not the 3rd ed Rokugan thing, but the one that actually is based in Abeir-Toril (Forgotten Realms). If you played it, what did you think? What could be carried over to 4e? What would need to be changed?
2. Yes, but before they decided to shoehorn it into FR. That was an afterthought, same with Maztica and a couple others I can't think of.
If they do revive Kara-Tur, they should not make it part of FR. Let it be its own country/continent/world.
Other than re-creating the races (or saying what races can simply be reflavored into what, a la Goliath/Half-Giant in Dark Sun), I don't think you need a whole campaign setting for this. It could easily be a couple of Dragon/Dungeon articles. Any class that can swing a longsword can call itself a samurai, any class that sneaks can call itself a ninja. I can't think of enough mechanical stuff needed to turn this into a whole thing. It's pretty much just regular D&D roleplayed differently.
-DS
-DS
I would buy a theme / faction type book in the style that Neverwinter promises to be but I'd be disappointed if the setting for a year was Kara Tur. Don't think it needs that.
The thing I'd most like to see in a Kara-Tur campaign setting is a description of the actual setting, that is, the places. I'd like to know about the geography, the different nations, the different cities. I'd like to know about the monsters who dwell there (they seem fascinating), as well as some of the people that inhabit the area.
In this discussion so far, I've only noticed people bringing up japanese-themed elements, ie ninjas, samurai, katanas, and even anime lol. According to Kara-tur Wikipedia, that would only account for two of the nations - Wa and Kozakura. What about Shou Lung, Tabot, Koryo or the horse-plains? (How cool would it be to be a mongolian-type barbarian, mounted archers ftw!). What I'm trying to get at is that when I first read about Kara-tur, I didn't imagine a japanese-themed setting, but I'm kinda surprised that is what everybody has fallen back to.
Btw, if they did a Kara-Tur setting, I would hate for it to be in the art to be in an anime style as well. Give me the classic epic D&D art!
I can´t imagine Kara-tur without oriental classes like samurai, sohei (yes, I like idea of sohei class), ninja. If there is a "Heroes of ki" will be published in the year 2013.
But I wonder....Could Hasbro and Cryptic/Beijing Perfect World make a agremeent for a MMO of Kara-tur?
I can´t imagine Kara-tur without oriental classes like samurai, sohei (yes, I like idea of sohei class), ninja.
Oh I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not saying that Kara-tur should not have japanese classes like the samurai etc, I was saying that people had only brought up "japanese themes" like samurai, ninjas, sohei, katanas and anime. I was suggesting that there is a wealth of material to draw from rather that only japanese culture.
Oh and I was also just trying to say that Kara-Tur need not have anime art simply because it is an Asian themed world.
I could acutally imaging Kara-Tur without any new classes, or if following the "one class per setting rule" with some really original class.
Samurai, ninja and Co. should be done either through themes or through new powers for the weapon master, rogue, slayers, ...
I think a "Heroes from Orient" and "Kara-tur campaing setting" like two separated books is more sale and money for WotC.
As to the possibilities of samurai, ninja, and what-have-you: these are better served in 4th edition by themes or even backgrounds than by classes or class builds. I can play a swordmage working as an inqusitive in Sharn, a sorcerer king pact warlock who received his power from Szass Tam, or an artificer in the employ of the Veiled Alliance. What I can't do is play a Balican ninja. Classes and class builds must, for the most part, remain culturally neutral, so that they can be cut-and-pasted into other settings, whether published or homebrewed.
You have seen Dark Sun 4th ed can be played without psionic power from PH3. Haven´t you? I think a campaing like Kara-Tur 4th ed could be played without "Heroes from Orient" but if books about new PC classes and races are better sales... you can´t blame WotC for publishing new "heroes of..".
I simply cannot picture Dark Sun without psionic classes. It's like the Forgotten Realms without arcane magic; the setting is no longer itself. As to new races and classes, I certainly can object to them being published in a "Heroes of..." format (which I won't buy) as opposed to new PHBs (which I will.)
And I had liked the return of ardent/divine mind like psionic class. It has got potential. The lurker from Complete Psionic can be a special theme for rogues.
I have little interest in Kara-Tur. It would probably be too anime. Al-Qadim would be more interesting.
I second this! Al-Qadim would be WAAAY more interesting!
So I'll toss in my two cents here. But first (for the sake of honesty) I have to admit that I've never played Kara-tur, OA or Rokugan, I've only read about them online and they sound fascinating. So the bottom line - I don't know what I'm talking about lol.
The thing I'd most like to see in a Kara-Tur campaign setting is a description of the actual setting, that is, the places. I'd like to know about the geography, the different nations, the different cities. I'd like to know about the monsters who dwell there (they seem fascinating), as well as some of the people that inhabit the area.
In this discussion so far, I've only noticed people bringing up japanese-themed elements, ie ninjas, samurai, katanas, and even anime lol. According to Kara-tur Wikipedia, that would only account for two of the nations - Wa and Kozakura. What about Shou Lung, Tabot, Koryo or the horse-plains? (How cool would it be to be a mongolian-type barbarian, mounted archers ftw!). What I'm trying to get at is that when I first read about Kara-tur, I didn't imagine a japanese-themed setting, but I'm kinda surprised that is what everybody has fallen back to.
Btw, if they did a Kara-Tur setting, I would hate for it to be in the art to be in an anime style as well. Give me the classic epic D&D art!
If you can get hold of the 1E Kara Tur boxed set somewhere then it gives all the setting info you need and as I recall could be used for any edition for the most part (I could be wrong, it's a while since I've read it). The Forgotten Realms Atlas also offers some superb maps of Kara Tur if you can find that.
Unlike most people, I love the idea of the FR as a fantasy mirror of Earth, that's how it was originally conceived and IMO it makes it that much more interesting.
There's a Kara-Tur month coming up in DDI, so says Greg Bilsands twitter feed.
Sigh.
There's a Kara-Tur month coming up in DDI, so says Greg Bilsands twitter feed.
Well, here comes our flavorful setting they previously mentioned. I can't wait!
There's a Kara-Tur month coming up in DDI, so says Greg Bilsands twitter feed.
It was cool to see that. I suspect people will like what Greg has planned.
There's a Kara-Tur month coming up in DDI, so says Greg Bilsands twitter feed.
Well, here comes our flavorful setting they previously mentioned. I can't wait!
I will be amused as **** if 'flavorful campaign setting' means what I think it means ('here's how to reflavor everything for Kara-Tur. No new mechanics').
There's a Kara-Tur month coming up in DDI, so says Greg Bilsands twitter feed.
Well, here comes our flavorful setting they previously mentioned. I can't wait!
I will be amused as **** if 'flavorful campaign setting' means what I think it means ('here's how to reflavor everything for Kara-Tur. No new mechanics').
It would be so dirty if they toss it like that. It'd get a good snicker/cackle from me.
Now I'm actually anticipating this release.
I will be amused as **** if 'flavorful campaign setting' means what I think it means ('here's how to reflavor everything for Kara-Tur. No new mechanics').
Personally, I'd be disappointed, as I prefer to get crunch for my dollar. But we all have our preferences.
I will be amused as **** if 'flavorful campaign setting' means what I think it means ('here's how to reflavor everything for Kara-Tur. No new mechanics').
Personally, I'd be disappointed, as I prefer to get crunch for my dollar. But we all have our preferences.
I'd rather get something I can use, too, which would be 'Not Kara-Tur'. But in the even I am right, the ability to point, laugh, and say 'I told you so' is well worth the price of admission.
I will be amused as **** if 'flavorful campaign setting' means what I think it means ('here's how to reflavor everything for Kara-Tur. No new mechanics').
Personally, I'd be disappointed, as I prefer to get crunch for my dollar. But we all have our preferences.
I'd rather get something I can use, too, which would be 'Not Kara-Tur'. But in the even I am right, the ability to point, laugh, and say 'I told you so' is well worth the price of admission.
I would like to see it succeed so when they look to doing more campaign settings, they don't go "Well, ****, that didn't work with Kara-Tur, we should just throw the rest of this away." I agree that a large portion of this could be straight up refluffing, but they could make some new mechanics. I am not expecting much outside some themes and a few monsters though.
There's a Kara-Tur month coming up in DDI, so says Greg Bilsands twitter feed.
It was cool to see that. I suspect people will like what Greg has planned.
Me too ;). I can't wait
I would like to see it succeed so when they look to doing more campaign settings, they don't go "Well, ****, that didn't work with Kara-Tur, we should just throw the rest of this away." I agree that a large portion of this could be straight up refluffing, but they could make some new mechanics. I am not expecting much outside some themes and a few monsters though.
Seems likely. Races seem like a possibility as well.
1. lankhmar
2. ravenloft
3. birthright
4. planescape
5. spelljammer
*bottom* kara-tur
i might add, i started playing dnd in 3.5e and i only played regular dnd or rokugan. before 4e i was unaware that so many settings existed. any of them would be interesting but OA has a special place in my heart.
Please, please, please with sugar on top, I will playtest it to death, then give it another whirl.
And which are different enough to warrent something other then reflavoring / themes?
I'm sure one of the races: Vanara, Nezumi, Spirit Folk, and some other race could actually be singled out to make a decent race that doesn't have anything equivalent.
I'm sure one of the races: Vanara, Nezumi, Spirit Folk, and some other race could actually be singled out to make a decent race that doesn't have anything equivalent.
A full writeup for kenku would be pretty swank; they already exist in a Monster Manual and they're certainly setting-approriate.
id like to see
1. lankhmar
2. ravenloft
3. birthright
4. planescape
5. spelljammer
*bottom* kara-tur
Lankhmar? That's about the most niche and obscure setting I have ever heard of. I had to Google it. Kalamar was less obscure.
Ravneloft, Planescape and Spelljammer were popular enough to have some support, and Ravenloft was SUPPOSED to happen this year. I, for one, am somewhat glad, because they were promising vampire and werewolf characters, and think RL was more about fighting horror than BEING one.
PS and SJ...there's almost enough material in the MotP and DMG2 to run. I spoke with a FLGS owner who had an inside line to WotC (supposedly), and said his friend told him that Spelljammer was on the calander for 4th quarter 2011. Whether that means articles or products, we don't know.
And birthright...well, I won't argue, but personally I don't see the appeal.
But Lankhmar? REALLY?
There's enough. If they can make a Bladesinger as a full 30 level class, I'm sure there's a class you can place let's say under "cleric" or some other umbrella class that can fit.
I'm sure one of the races: Vanara, Nezumi, Spirit Folk, and some other race could actually be singled out to make a decent race that doesn't have anything equivalent.
Nezumi are a race from L5R, WotC no longer has the rights to them.
Vanara, Hengeyokai, Spirit Folk, Kappa (turtle folk), Kenku (full-race write-up please), and all sorts other races are possible.
id like to see
1. lankhmar
2. ravenloft
3. birthright
4. planescape
5. spelljammer
*bottom* kara-tur
Lankhmar? That's about the most niche and obscure setting I have ever heard of. I had to Google it. Kalamar was less obscure.
Ravneloft, Planescape and Spelljammer were popular enough to have some support, and Ravenloft was SUPPOSED to happen this year. I, for one, am somewhat glad, because they were promising vampire and werewolf characters, and think RL was more about fighting horror than BEING one.
PS and SJ...there's almost enough material in the MotP and DMG2 to run. I spoke with a FLGS owner who had an inside line to WotC (supposedly), and said his friend told him that Spelljammer was on the calander for 4th quarter 2011. Whether that means articles or products, we don't know.
And birthright...well, I won't argue, but personally I don't see the appeal.
But Lankhmar? REALLY?
To be fair, I had to google Lankhmar as well (and promptly slapped my forehead with a big "DUH!"), but I wouldn't dream of saying it shouldn't see an update. I don't really much care what order they do Campaign Setting Month (I seriously want it to be at least an every few months thing), only that they do it.
I really hope that when they do Kara-Tur, that it isn't tied to the Realms. Harken back to its original form and release it for the implied setting (which is a pseudo-Greyhawk, Kara-Tur's original home), and include a sidebar for putting it in the realms.
I totally want Dragonlance to have a Campaign Setting Month, though. A lot of people disagree with me on that though.
The classes contained within are
oriental barbarian = barbarian
bushi = Could be done as a "honor code" theme
kensai = fighter
monk = monk
ninja = Assassin. Though i could see a few more powers.
samurai = Could be done as an "servent to the lord" theme
shukenja = Cleric
sohei = paladin
wu jen = Sorcerer, possibly with a specific element focus options.
yakuza = Rogue.
Races:
Korobokuru = dwarf, with a new racial option.
Hengeyokai = changeling, with a new racial option.
Spirit Folk = wilden, with new racial option.
Definatly some options to be added, but i don't see anything that cries out for a full race/class, as mostly it seems to be normal classes with different RP restrictions.
As for the actual topic: I have played in Kara-Tur in AD&D 2e but have not played the more recent iterations of it. I would like to see it come back, but I don't think it merits being one of the annual settings. As Salla, and others, have pointed out, reflavoring and themes really accomplishes the task of creating an oriental campaign, however I don't see this being a book all it's own. It could be a DDI article, or it could be one chapter in a print book dedicated entirely to reflavoring and themes for oriental settings, arabian nights settings, and others.
As for the actual topic: I have played in Kara-Tur in AD&D 2e but have not played the more recent iterations of it. I would like to see it come back, but I don't think it merits being one of the annual settings. As Salla, and others, have pointed out, reflavoring and themes really accomplishes the task of creating an oriental campaign, however I don't see this being a book all it's own. It could be a DDI article, or it could be one chapter in a print book dedicated entirely to reflavoring and themes for oriental settings, arabian nights settings, and others.
They're appearing in an upcoming Dragon and Dungeon.
There's enough. If they can make a Bladesinger as a full 30 level class, I'm sure there's a class you can place let's say under "cleric" or some other umbrella class that can fit.
I'm sure one of the races: Vanara, Nezumi, Spirit Folk, and some other race could actually be singled out to make a decent race that doesn't have anything equivalent.
Nezumi are a race from L5R, WotC no longer has the rights to them.
Vanara, Hengeyokai, Spirit Folk, Kappa (turtle folk), Kenku (full-race write-up please), and all sorts other races are possible.
I would think that nezumi would be in the public domain, being mythological creatures. WoD having a Vampire game hasn't stopped WotC from printing vampires.
There's enough. If they can make a Bladesinger as a full 30 level class, I'm sure there's a class you can place let's say under "cleric" or some other umbrella class that can fit.
I'm sure one of the races: Vanara, Nezumi, Spirit Folk, and some other race could actually be singled out to make a decent race that doesn't have anything equivalent.
Nezumi are a race from L5R, WotC no longer has the rights to them.
Vanara, Hengeyokai, Spirit Folk, Kappa (turtle folk), Kenku (full-race write-up please), and all sorts other races are possible.
I would think that nezumi would be in the public domain, being mythological creatures. WoD having a Vampire game hasn't stopped WotC from printing vampires.
I was unaware the Nezumi was public domain. Comment retracted.
I totally want a Kappa though.
There's enough. If they can make a Bladesinger as a full 30 level class, I'm sure there's a class you can place let's say under "cleric" or some other umbrella class that can fit.
I'm sure one of the races: Vanara, Nezumi, Spirit Folk, and some other race could actually be singled out to make a decent race that doesn't have anything equivalent.
Nezumi are a race from L5R, WotC no longer has the rights to them.
Vanara, Hengeyokai, Spirit Folk, Kappa (turtle folk), Kenku (full-race write-up please), and all sorts other races are possible.
I would think that nezumi would be in the public domain, being mythological creatures. WoD having a Vampire game hasn't stopped WotC from printing vampires.
I was unaware the Nezumi was public domain. Comment retracted.
I totally want a Kappa though.
I'm assuming so. It IS an assumption, but since there were Nezumi in Magic: The Gathering well after WotC lost the L5R license, and they've been in WoD Sourcebooks before L5R even existed ... and, really, it's just the Japanese word for rat or mouse. I'm not certain one even really can iron down an IP on something like that. It's like dwarves ... they're just out there, everybody can use them.
Edit: Was there a Rat hengeyokai? If so, that's basically a nezumi with the serial numbers filed off, I think, since they had raccoon dog (tanuki) and fox (kitsune) hengeyokai.
There was a rat hengeyokai, but the difference was that nezumi were anthropomorphic rats where as hengeyokai came in human, hybrid, and animal shape depending on how they felt.
I am aware.
If they create all the hengeyokai, however, they might not feel the need to create a separate Nezumi race. The Rat Hengeyokai just call themselves 'nezumi' and be done with it.
Possibly. To be honest, the nezumi weren't all that interesting. Take them out of Rokugan and you basically just goblins that look different. In fact I don't think they were actually native to the Kara-Tur region. I remember spiritfolk and hengeyokai though, and they'd be on top of my list of wants. Hengeyokai in particular.
Nezumi only resemble goblins in the most superficial of manners. There's quite a bit more to their culture than just being dirty (literally) cowards, such as viewing life as a great dream and death as awakening from that dream, and their Name magic.
Possibly. To be honest, the nezumi weren't all that interesting. Take them out of Rokugan and you basically just goblins that look different. In fact I don't think they were actually native to the Kara-Tur region. I remember spiritfolk and hengeyokai though, and they'd be on top of my list of wants. Hengeyokai in particular.
Nezumi only resemble goblins in the most superficial of manners. There's quite a bit more to their culture than just being dirty (literally) cowards, such as viewing life as a great dream and death as awakening from that dream, and their Name magic.
That's right, I completely forgot all of that. I think I was referring to mechanics in my comparison to goblins.
That's right, I completely forgot all of that. I think I was referring to mechanics in my comparison to goblins.
Not a problem, most people don't bother looking deeper. It's been my experience that L5R/Rokugan players tend to disregard the nezumi, whereas they were about the only part of the game I actually liked. It's not even that they're cowards, per se, but they understand that there's a time when retreating is intelligent and practical ... which puts them at odds with the 'honor before reason' guys.
If WotC wants it can create a race of PC rat-men and isn´t illegal.
And I imagine Tengu like a fay PC race of no crow-like people with a long nose (symbol of proud). Crow-like form would be a aditional power. Kenku (crow-like humanoid) is enough
About Hengeyokai... a PC of low level who can became a bird and fly to the window of the tallest tower could be a headache to DM.
I love lungs (oriental dragons)!! and I like bakemono and tasloi. (but I like most of monster PC races).
About Hengeyokai... a PC of low level who can became a bird and fly to the window of the tallest tower could be a headache to DM.
Any PC flight ability would either have a low altitude ceiling, or be an encounter power. In other words, not a problem.
As I recall, there were only three hengeyokai types with a fly speed. None of which would be all that effective in animal form in a combat situation. Cranes are the most dangerous, and they are mostly defensive at best. Sparrows and Chickens are just silly.
In 1e and 2e OA, the hengeyokai subraces were: carp, cat, crab, crane, dog, drake, fox, hare, monkey, raccoon dog, rat, and sparrow. In 3e OA, drake was dropped and the badger and weasel hengeyokai were added, both of which first appeared in Dragon 266. That 2e article also introduced the frog, lizard, panda, owl, octopus, hawk, and lynx hengeyokai (there might be others, I can't remember off the top of my head), but they didn't make it into 3rd edition.
Rat, or wolf thus far.
Also, flying as an encounter power already exisits.
And I imagine Tengu like a fay PC race of no crow-like people with a long nose (symbol of proud). Crow-like form would be a aditional power. Kenku (crow-like humanoid) is enough
Tengu are already a PC race
And I imagine Tengu like a fay PC race of no crow-like people with a long nose (symbol of proud). Crow-like form would be a aditional power. Kenku (crow-like humanoid) is enough
Tengu are already a PC race
No, they're not. They're Kenku, and MM writeups are not intended for PC use.
And I imagine Tengu like a fay PC race of no crow-like people with a long nose (symbol of proud). Crow-like form would be a aditional power. Kenku (crow-like humanoid) is enough
Tengu are already a PC race
No, they're not. They're Kenku, and MM writeups are not intended for PC use.
You're right, I confused Kenku and Tengu. However Kenku are a legal race in LFR
i could see a hengeyokai theme that allows you to choose one animal that you can transform into as your starting feature but... hmm ok maybe even a race with that same ability i dunno, aren't untransformed hengeyokai basically human. i'm just saying a race with like 10 or more options to choose from at character creation seems overly complicated.
would each form have its own racial power? or would it be sort of like a quickchange, where you transform scurry or fly accross the battlefield and then transform back? or is the ability to transform the power and it gives you new statistics until you transform back?
I think the quickchange encounter power is the best option. it could basically be a in combat "teleport" fly, burrow, scurry, squeeze, that allows you to move a long distance and out of combat possibly give you a bonus to a skill check, flyer: perception, burrower: dungeoneering, climber: athletics, etc. it's quick, it's simple, it can be used in combat and skill challenges, no new silly stat blocks for tiny animals...
Personally Here is what I'd want to see:
Week 1: Dragon Magizine- Races of Kara-Tur (with either racial feats for exsisting races or one or two full write ups) and Class Themes, including Samurai, ninja, Sohi, Wu-ji, and Ronin. (races at the begining of the week and themes at the end). Dungeon Magizine- Eye on Kara-tur, all about Shou Lung and it would include both fluff and some NPC stats.
Week 2: Dungeon Magizine- Eye on Kara-tur, all about Wa and it would include both fluff and NPCstats. Monsters of Kara-tur, Kara-tur flavored monsters that were/are specific to the setting.(eye on Kara-tur is at the begining of the week, with monsters being at the end of the week) Dragon Magizine- Equipment of Kara-tur, stats for everything from weapons, to mundane and magical equpiment.
Week 3: Dragon Magizine- Paragon Paths of Kara tur, new paragon paths in the flavor of the setting. Stlye Themes, character themes based on marital arts styles. (paragon paths at the begining of the week, themes at the end) Dungeon Magizine- Eye on Kara-Tur, all about Kozakura, and it would include both fluff and some NPC stats.
Week 4: Dungeon Magizine- Eye on Kara-tur, all about the horse plains, and it would include both fluff and some NPC stats. Adventures in Kara-tur, an adventure module set in heroic tier in Kara-tur its self. (Eye on Kara-tur being at the begining of the week andd the adventure at the end of the week) Dragon Magizine- Epic Destinies of Kara-tur, a couple of epic destinies to take your characters up into 30th level.
This is pretty much what I'd like to see. Also I'd like to see each of those dragon magizines has a smattering of feats (between 2 and 4 per artical). As for the themes I'd like them to be like the iron wolf themes, i.e. a mix of DS style themes and the Generic theme (a power at 1st level, a benefit at 5th & 10th, with being able to swap out attack powers)
my hope would be martial arts style themse... Akido, Karate, Nin jitsu, animal style (I am so sure there is a cool name i am forgeting there), Mu tia.
I have no idea about the rune priest, but a ninja should be pretty hard to do, there are too many ways you could go with it....
a ninja should be pretty hard to do, there are too many ways you could go with it....
Which is why, at most, it should be a theme, then you let the player decide what he thinks a ninja is and build it with the class options available.
If Kanji Runepriest means a Buddhist monk master of sacred sutras or a Daoist Doumyouji (yin-yang master) specialising in sealing and repelling evil spirits (and the repelling would definitely fit for defencive buffs for allies) then I say bring it on, nine hells yes!! (or should I say world of hungry ghosts yes!??)
I'll have some fun reading up on this. Could be fun to get some ideas for what lies 'far to the east' (actually it is west in my campaign world, but what can you say?).
Unless your campaign world isn't round, same thing just further.
Then you can take the Assassins for Martials mc feats and file the serial points off, in my opinion. Works pretty close to the Executioner stuff.
If Kanji Runepriest means a Buddhist monk master of sacred sutras or a Daoist Doumyouji (yin-yang master) specialising in sealing and repelling evil spirits (and the repelling would definitely fit for defencive buffs for allies) then I say bring it on, nine hells yes!! (or should I say world of hungry ghosts yes!??)
Sounds like pure fluff considerations. Runes and kanji are both writing (and thus fluff), sealing and repelling evil spirits is insert-your-favorite-anti-undead CD power, lots of classes give defensive buffs ...
This guy would be a Staff Runepriest (Staff and Seals). Or what about a Miko with a bow?
Yes, but current builds essentially push you to being a Sword Runepriest or a Hammer Runepriest.
This guy would be a Staff Runepriest (Staff and Seals). Or what about a Miko with a bow?
Nothing stopping you from using a staff. Not optimal, perhaps, but not required. And you don't even have to be a runepriest in the first place, just be a cleric and flavor your stuff with kanji. Or Paladin, or wizard, or whatever.
No idea what a Miko is, but I recall someone reading that Seekers work well for that.
At this point, I'm sick of people saying it's either a fluff or Theme consideration. They decided that it didn't have to be, and I'm glad. Cause it doesn't have to be, only those that wish it to be can have it that way. If anything it's just the bad memories of crappy classes and non-functional feats that have prevailed in older editions.
)Ninja and Samurai could definitely be themes. I could definitely ninjafy a ranger.
Samurai and ninja are too good concepts to be only subclass. They deserver being true core classes.
Since my first D&D character was a Ninja, and I loved used 1e Oriental Adventures, I'd love to see a full Kara Tur book, especially since I will never get a DDi subscription. (Dragon died at #359
Ninja and Samurai could definitely be themes. I could definitely ninjafy a ranger.
Perhaps this is Dragon's rebirth?
Nothing stopping you from purchasing only one issue.
Samurai and ninja are too good concepts to be only subclass. They deserver being true core classes.
So play the crap out of them, provide lots of feedback to the appropriate people, and make sure that your player-presence is known; perhaps they'll graduate to something more akin to a class in a later edition?
Samurai and ninja are too good concepts to be only subclass. They deserver being true core classes.
Ummm... No.
Samurai are fighters. The only thing special about him is his code of honer and his lord, not his fighting style. You don't even need new powers for it. A theme or background and your set.
Ninja at least deserves a few options, but hardly a new class. And it's really only cause assassins are a under-supported. Make a new guild that has shrukin, blowgun, and a shortsword attack. Add "Smoke Bomb Escape: Standard action, Create a heavily obscured zone in your space, Enemies within 5 are defened, turn invisible move your speed and make a stealth check", and your set.
But that's for another argument entirely.
I'd be pretty happy with Samurai Sub-class like the Slayer, and I'm happy there's a Ninja Assassin build for the Assassin. In fact, I'm even pleased that there's a Kanji build for the woefully neglected Runepriest.
It's just irks me that we can have fine line distinctions between Slayer, Knight, and Paladin, Cavalier, and so forth, but somehow many of the forumites are dead set against a distinction for the Samurai and Ninja, when WotC will do what they think is going to be thier version of such things. As for the quality of these ideas, those are suspect; but they can flesh them out as much as they need. If they made a Bladesinger, of which many complained was already the swordmage, of which some more complained was a hybrid or MC of Wizard and Fighter, why not these (sub)classes?
Either concept doesn't have to pander to history, pre-concieve historical fantasy, or mass media fantasy, they just have to be fantastic and play to the rule of cool and fulfill a niche that is currently empty (or at least nowhere near as filled as others).
Note: I'm saying that Samurai and Ninja shouldn't be full AEDU classes, in fact at this point it's near impossible to make a new one, and there's a few AEDU classes that I feel could easily be subclasses. These two are good targets for doing so, and shoudn't just be relegated to just Themes.
The issue with this mindset is that it's only based on the very little distinction given to it. A samurai could be more, could be less. The idea is about as fine a line between fighter, paladin, rogue, ranger, and barbarian. All of those classes classes hit things with weapons, I'm not entirely sure why we have more than just the Fighter.
Perhaps you could help us to see the distinction that you see?
Our fellow forumites are against most things until they're proven viable, it's just the nature of our community. If you wish them to see differently, help them to.
What special thing would a Samurai bring to the table the warrants Class treatment as opposed to Theme treatment? Themes are still in their infancy, and they're extremely versatile and comprehensive in their brevity. I'm a lover of Bards, but I believe in the promise of themes so much that I would be considerably happy with one truly solid and encapsulating Bard class and a chapter of themes to differentiate all the great things that can be done with the single archetype. -- I'm straight up saying that you could toss the Virtue builds, basically the entirety of the class as we know it, and skin a whole handful of themes that would more than cover what it took two books and numerous magazine articles to accomplish. That's a bold proposition!
Either concept doesn't have to pander to history, pre-concieve historical fantasy, or mass media fantasy, they just have to be fantastic and play to the rule of cool and fulfill a niche that is currently empty (or at least nowhere near as filled as others).
Your community members have stated, and supported, the assertion that the Samurai concept is a redundant niche. Would doing something outside of history pandering, pre-concieved historical fantasy related and/or mass media influenced still be worthy or appropriate for the "Samurai" name? If there's room for the class, help them to see differently.
Short version: Samurai is a social status and a code of behavior. That's purely a roleplay consideration ('I'm a noble and my character obeys this set of rules'), and thus should not, IMNSHO, be mechanically represented. At most, you need a theme or background to ensure you're proficient with a longsword because of the katana fetish, and if your class already comes proficient in them, you can take something else and still call yourself a samurai.
LOL Salla, Champion of the Direct Approach.
Since my first D&D character was a Ninja, and I loved used 1e Oriental Adventures, I'd love to see a full Kara Tur book, especially since I will never get a DDi subscription. (Dragon died at #359
Ninja and Samurai could definitely be themes. I could definitely ninjafy a ranger.
A ninja wielding two weapons? That's preposterous, who would ever ...
... never mind. :D
I Know Kara-tur is... more... style of story wuxia but Chinese culture is less known by American and European fanboys.
Personaly, the indian subcontinent and around, southern Asia, Persia... should be all explored more too.
(China is less popular than Japan there, but it have fans, and even otakus - look at the fandom for those KOEI games, Romance of the Three Kingdoms...)
You ought to rebember the influence of manga and anime from Japanese culture is very big. And otakus could be potential buyers of a oriental setting rpg.
I Know Kara-tur is... more... style of story wuxia but Chinese culture is less known by American and European fanboys.
Well it's not completely unknown is it? Crouching Tiger....
But I guess what I'm trying to say is that WotC, or DnD for that matter, hasn't needed to simply bank on the expected. It hasn't just delivered the classic rpg settings that we have already consumed in various other forms. For example, Dark Sun. Has a setting like that been already wildly popular for decades? Has the public been primed in expectation for something like that? There is no need to simply rely on what the public is already used to when delivering a new product, and I think this CAN hold true for Kara-Tur as well.
When I first brought up Kara-Tur, everybody's knee jerk reaction was "ninja" and "samurai". Well if everybody can think these things up, why would I need WotC? I'm sure there are half a dozen other games that can supply the exact same thing. What I like about WotC and DnD is their creativity. I'd like to see that put to use towards the greater landscape of Kara-Tur and Asian history/culture in general.
In fact, you can hear how tired everybody is of the same old japanese tropes. Several people raised the point that there didn't need to be new classes for the Samurai and the Ninja, it could all be done with existing classes and adding fluff and roleplaying. I don't disagree with this assertion. We've been there and done that a million times. In fact, when they designed the fighter and the rogue I wouldn't be surprised if the samurai and ninja had been partial inspiration for their structure. It's tired, it's done, we've seen it. If they stick with the same worn out faux-asian tropes then I don't think anybody is going to be impressed or surprised by the new Kara-tur reboot. I'm hoping they bank on their creativity and deliver to us somethign that we haven't seen in the past.
And India is an untapped potential still...
1) People will never be satisfied if you present a new class or subclass, since quite frankly they'll complain it's doable via re-flavoring or something else. I like themes, myself; but if an idea can become a full sub-class let it be. New settings almost always come with very heavy mechanical new toys. Forgotten Realms made the Swordmage, Eberron had the Artificer, Dark Sun introduced the first set of themes and Neverwinter introduced the Bladesinger. Kara-tur needs more than just simple themes.
Note: After all they made the Vampire a full class, same with the Bladesinger. There are some doable Chinese and other asian mystical tropes, and definite re-works of things like Monk, Runepriest, and Seeker that could work, but either they (WotC) don't want to completely re-work those into E style sub-classes or the minor vocal fanbase will cry something about bloody murder (or why bother?).
2) I feel that people won't buy it. There's just something about the niche market of RPG's that it gets even more severely niche that it doesn't play to the standard anglo fantasy tropes. Also, there are significantly better games to go on with the same tropes, like Exalted, BESM, Rokugan.
There is a market for non Japanese stuff.... Look at the popularity of Avatar, which is more based on Chinese stuff for much of it.
And India is an untapped potential still...
Yes I'm pretty sure that there is untapped potential everywhere. But to be clear, I'm not advocating that WotC should attempt to represent every asian culture that exists. Such an attempt would be disastrous. I'm not even recommending that a large number be represented. I'm simply suggesting that there is an upside to breaking away from the unexpected.
I think that the many yawns I heard in response to my first bringing up Kara-tur are indicative of how boring the expected classes are. Many people rightly asked.. do we really need this? I can just role a fighter and "wah lah", now it's a samurai. I don't have a good argument against this. If WotC is really only going to deliver a pale half hearted attempt to deliver exactly what every everybody could already guess, then they are missing out on a lot of potential for kara-tur. I can guarantee you that this will excite nobody. Those who were never interested in Kara-tur will not read it, and OA/rokugan fanboys will be furious because one thing or another was not precisely as they had imagined (I am sure that that samurai and ninja are both heavily trodden debate topics.)
There is an upside to being creative in DnD design.
samurai wont be a class or a build. at least not as far as the next two months of dragon articles are concerned and if it were a theme i'd think they'd go the "Clandestine Noble" and "Ronin Warrior" rout and not mention the word samurai at all. (ya i know there are already three noble themes 4 if you count devil's pawn)
since i didn't see any mention of races i think we're out of luck there but i bet if hengeyokai were to be mentioned at all they could be a theme with a "choose your animal form" at-will.
the setting includes countries that correspond to almost every country in East and South East Asia:
Shou Lung & T'u Lung = China
Kozakura & Wa = Japan
Koryo = Korea
The Northern Wastes = Siberia and Manchuria
The Plain of Horses = Mongolia (and further west are the Hordelands)
Tabot = Tibet
Island Kingdoms = Indonesia, Malaysia, Phillipines
There's also a Khmer analog and I believe a Vietnam analog, but I can't remember their names.
So would anybody like to see playable classes from any of these other cultures? Or Just japanse themed cultures?
We already have them. It's called 'taking what we have and reflavoring it'.
We already have them. It's called 'taking what we have and reflavoring it'.
How would you, personally, reflavor something to be Chinese or Korean for example?
Several. Dodging the 'Orientalism' clichés and all, by example. But also dodging total copies of the same world we have.
Why not doing an orientalesque, but 'new' world, like what was Avatar? Hires scholars if needed...
Why not doing an orientalesque, but 'new' world, like what was Avatar? Hires scholars if needed...
That would be really amazing wouldn't it? Personally I would really enjoy something like this, and I'm sure you would as well. You and I might be the only people who play D&D who would enjoy this unfortunately.
Most people are satisfied with an oriental cliche for a few laughs, but that's about it. Why do you think people are only talking about ninjas and samurai? They already have the chop suey image in their minds and they expect to play that. Even the ideas of ninjas could be reimagined, like Naruto did (quite successfully) for example.
Yes, Kara-tur could conceivably be a vast and fascinating domain and I think WotC has the sufficient strength in creativity to pull it off as well. In fact, I think WotC, in the state that it is now, could make it a masterpiece.
But unfortunately I don't think that your average D&D player is sophisticated enough to understand or appreciate this. If they were planning on creating the setting that you and I would like, they would be putting out a book or a box set, and not just a few articles. Unfortunately most people are of the mindset that they can just take a rogue, slant his eyes and give him buckteeth and now it's kara-tur.
Why not doing an orientalesque, but 'new' world, like what was Avatar? Hires scholars if needed...
That would be really amazing wouldn't it? Personally I would really enjoy something like this, and I'm sure you would as well. You and I might be the only people who play D&D who would enjoy this unfortunately.
Most people are satisfied with an oriental cliche for a few laughs, but that's about it. Why do you think people are only talking about ninjas and samurai? They already have the chop suey image in their minds and they expect to play that. Even the ideas of ninjas could be reimagined, like Naruto did (quite successfully) for example.
Yes, Kara-tur could conceivably be a vast and fascinating domain and I think WotC has the sufficient strength in creativity to pull it off as well. In fact, I think WotC, in the state that it is now, could make it a masterpiece.
But unfortunately I don't think that your average D&D player is sophisticated enough to understand or appreciate this. If they were planning on creating the setting that you and I would like, they would be putting out a book or a box set, and not just a few articles. Unfortunately most people are of the mindset that they can just take a rogue, slant his eyes and give him buckteeth and now it's kara-tur.
Well, according to canon Kara-tur is a part of Toril. And seeing as we are getting another Forgotten Realms book, and a wizard subclass from Al-Qadim in the Elemental source book, I could see a potential Kara-tur campaign book if the articles get heavy traffic. Though it'd probably a limited area such as Shou Lung.
Why not doing an orientalesque, but 'new' world, like what was Avatar? Hires scholars if needed...
Unfortunately most people are of the mindset that they can just take a rogue, slant his eyes and give him buckteeth and now it's kara-tur.
is anyone else really offended by this? just because i think a rouge could be the foundation for a decent ninja doesnt mean I'm a racist! class name is really just words anyway do you really think every assassin wanders around going, "hey guess what i'm an assassin! I kill for a living!!! have you seen my garrotte my mom made it fer me" Do you think that every class from PHB1 has to be a white Caucasian? if you think a rogue is a rogue and an assassin is an assassin and a ninja is a ninja and betwixt the three none shall meet then you'll just have to wait till something calling itself a ninja comes along and I bet you'll still be disappointed.
is anyone else really offended by this? just because i think a rouge could be the foundation for a decent ninja doesnt mean I'm a racist!
woah woah my deepest apologies. That comment came out wrong and was not directed towards anybody on this board. In fact, if you read my previous posts you will know that I actually agree with you, egg_thallid_sandwich. One of my main points for why I didn't want to only see the typical Japanese classes like ninja and samurai is because they really aren't that different from the rogue and fighter (go back a page or two on the thread and you will see that I said this.)
In fact, you can hear how tired everybody is of the same old japanese tropes. Several people raised the point that there didn't need to be new classes for the Samurai and the Ninja, it could all be done with existing classes and adding fluff and roleplaying. I don't disagree with this assertion. We've been there and done that a million times. In fact, when they designed the fighter and the rogue I wouldn't be surprised if the samurai and ninja had been partial inspiration for their structure.
I was actually railing against limiting the Kara-tur being limited to just the cliche faux-oriental themes that we've seen repeatedly. Apparently there is much more to Kara-tur than just japanese themes, and as I've said ad nauseum in my previous posts - WotC has a fantastic opportunity to go far and beyond just the tired old ninja and samurai.
is anyone else really offended by this? just because i think a rouge could be the foundation for a decent ninja doesnt mean I'm a racist! class name is really just words anyway do you really think every assassin wanders around going, "hey guess what i'm an assassin! I kill for a living!!! have you seen my garrotte my mom made it fer me" Do you think that every class from PHB1 has to be a white Caucasian? if you think a rogue is a rogue and an assassin is an assassin and a ninja is a ninja and betwixt the three none shall meet then you'll just have to wait till something calling itself a ninja comes along and I bet you'll still be disappointed.
I am...
A rogue makes a fine Ninja and a fighter (or ranger or slayer or swordmage) makes a fine Samurai... and that comment was horribly un called for.
Personally the bigotted one may be the person who thinks that the archetypes are so "different"
Kanji runeprieest: str primary attack stat, wis secondary. gets a weapon prof of some sort maybe bow if not then designed with staff in mind.
Monk: dex primary, wis second. follows the same format as the PHB3 monk. honestly im not sure if its gona be a new build or just a list of powers you can take regardless of build. imo all three monk builds fit the bill pretty well but a new build would certainly be welcome if that's the case.
ninja assassin: dex primary, cha second. i'd really like to see a new assassin built around dex/wis but i dont see them breaking the assassin mold for this one. i still cant decide if the ninja assassin is gona be an original assassin build, an executioner build or something new all together. i could see an executioner style ninja with the three weapon based at wills. one for the shuriken, one for the ninja-to (or just light blades) and one for ksari-gama.
by the way if they do make stats for new OA style weapons i'm gona make so many jokes about my lucky ninja-to.