You put fluff in Primal Power. Not the sidebar fluff. I really don't mind those. I'm talking about the
fluff about the primal spirits and the two pages at the start of each class.
Most, or all, of this fluff was boring and a blatant attempt to fill the book with useless material
rather than feats.
Do we really need half a page describing the barbarian's rage as angry if you want it to be but you
can also go with a calm fury too!?
I didn't think so. Primal Power was a mistep when it comes to the amounts of fluff that I am content with. Please take it back to Martial Power, Arcane Power, and Divine Power levels in your future X
Power supplements.
Or at the very least, make the fluff worth reading.
Much thanks.
Typical DnD fanbase... people keep complaining the core book lack fluff and ask for more, saying its easier to remove than make up, and when we DO get it somebody else rise up and bemoan the fact we get fluff!
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divine Power had more fluff than Martial Power and Arcane Power and both Divine Power and Primal Power were really interesting books.
The fluff in Primal Power was AWESOME!
Typical DnD fanbase... people keep complaining the core book lack fluff and ask for more, saying its easier to remove than make up, and when we DO get it somebody else rise up and bemoan the fact we get fluff!
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divine Power had more fluff than Martial Power and Arcane Power and both Divine Power and Primal Power were really interesting books.
This. Without interesting fluff, there's literally no reason to by the books. I subscribe to DDI so I get the crunch anyway. And I get more crunch every couple days. I'm glad Dragon doesn't have too much fluff, but I enjoy sitting down with the books and just reading them.
I mean, look at Adventurer's Vault 1 & 2. The second book is 2/3rds the size of the first one, and another 1/3rd of that is fluff. I don't at all mind adding interesting stuff to the book to make it more worth buying for DDIers, but if you're going to give us less and less stuff that's actually USEFUL to a player, while keeping the price the same... screw that.
Its gotten to the point where i just skip all the fluff text altogether and just look for feats/powers/weapons/monsters anyway, so the less fluff the book has, the more likely i am to pick it up.
This is a good sign.
Power gamers will probably hate it, but for those of us who roleplay any at all, it's manna from heaven. Makes the D&D world (and therefore our personal D&D worlds) that much more deep.
The primal power fluff (and some of the art) actually made me want to play a warden.
Agreed. I also particularly loved the Primal Backgrounds. Especially the Background ones. They fluff out the outlying lands of the wilds, and I love it.
And therefore buying a book that's all crunch and no interesting fluff is a waste of my money, since I'm already paying for all that info.
Also, when the first of the power series was released WotC needed to cram them full of mechanics, because those books were somewhat ment as capstones, however, after Martial Power 2 was green lit (as well as after the decision to include new divine and primal options in PH3) the role of this series changed. No longer are such books to serve as the be-all-end-all, now they are only individual installments in an ever expanding structure.
............just another tabletop combat game.....
Its not.....
Dungeons and Dragons is a game based on fluff. Its the beef 'n tatters of the hobby.
While fluff is important, I do think you're over emphasizing it. Mechanics are the MEAT of the game. Fluff is more like sauce, or maybe a side dish. Fluff is important because it adds flavor, but without the mechanics you don't have a meal to begin with.
That said fluff could also be compared to food preparation. The mechanics might be the main dish, but without the right amount of fluff all you've got is a pile of RAW meat. Still though, even by that analogy mechanics remain central and most important. All the best culinary skills in the world won't do a lick of good without any food to prepare.
Dungeons and Dragons is a game based on fluff. Its the beef 'n tatters of the hobby.
While fluff is important, I do think you're over emphasizing it. Mechanics are the MEAT of the game. Fluff is more like sauce, or maybe a side dish. Fluff is important because it adds flavor, but without the mechanics you don't have a meal to begin with.
That said fluff could also be compared to food preparation. The mechanics might be the main dish, but without the right amount of fluff all you've got is a pile of RAW meat. Still though, even by that analogy mechanics remain central and most important. All the best culinary skills in the world won't do a lick of good without any food to prepare.
And I believe that the fluff should be something the DM and the players create for themselves. I don't want to see paragon paths become like prestige classes did in late 3rd, taking up four or five pages with one page of crunch and four pages of crap that doesn't even make sense.
And I believe that the fluff should be something the DM and the players create for themselves. I don't want to see paragon paths become like prestige classes did in late 3rd, taking up four or five pages with one page of crunch and four pages of crap that doesn't even make sense.
True, but it can help to have a default starting point. Especially when new groups first get together, or when new concepts are first introduced to the game.
Also, we're still a long way from late 3.5 prestige class fluff levels. So far WotC is sticking pretty strongly to the format that each paragon path occupy exactly 1 page. Furthermore, unlike 3e fluff, most 4e fluff tries to be vague and/or flexible. It isn't meant to control/limit your imagination but to inspire it.
More fluff for me please WotC!
I'd also like to say that while crunch may be the meat of the dish, and fluff the vegetables, in Newfoundland, the meat is used to flavour the vegetables - rather than the other way around.
Dungeons and Dragons is a game based on fluff. Its the beef 'n tatters of the hobby.
While fluff is important, I do think you're over emphasizing it. Mechanics are the MEAT of the game. Fluff is more like sauce, or maybe a side dish. Fluff is important because it adds flavor, but without the mechanics you don't have a meal to begin with.
That said fluff could also be compared to food preparation. The mechanics might be the main dish, but without the right amount of fluff all you've got is a pile of RAW meat. Still though, even by that analogy mechanics remain central and most important. All the best culinary skills in the world won't do a lick of good without any food to prepare.
There will always be mechanics in the books, so thats not an issue. Mechanics don't require an entire power book for what wotc releases. But if you remove the fluff completely, it won't be D&D anymore. D&D has always been about the story. The fluff of unique settings and the fluff of the core rules and the example fluff in the books. It makes the books worth buying and worth reading.
People claim that the DM should make up the fluff, but thats not always a good idea if your DM has little to no creativity and just buys books for mechanics (like some posters on this forum). I fail to see a reason in playing a game without a backstory. The books give us enough backstory and history that old fans like myself are semi happy reading it (very happy when its good) and new D&D fans get to experience and learn what D&D is about. (more than just a +6 sword you got on a raid)
For example, the story about the primal spirits and the spirit way, are very useful and it would have been a shame to rob those of us who buy the books for BOTH fluff and crunch, of a part of the books we enjoy.
Thats like wotc releasing a 4e deities and demigods, packing it full of mechanics and no fluff at all. I want to read up on the "offical" fluff on anything they release. Its interesting to me and many others and just because some folks don't like it, doesn't mean it shouldn't be in there. Maybe they shouldn't put mechanics in the books anymore, since some people don't really care about the rules. Maybe the books shouldn't include artwork anymore since some people don't like the 4e art/recycled art. Or maybe wotc shouldn't publish 4e anymore since some people don't like 4th edition.
Just because one group or one person doesn't like something doesn't mean jack. The rest of us might. I want a balance of crunch and fluff in the books I spend my money on. I want an interesting story as a lead -in and then balanced mechanics to use once I'm inspired.
If people don't like game books with fluff in them, then those people picked the wrong game to play. Its always been like that and probably always will, unless wotc screws up.
As has been said, if you're anti-fluff in books, you're best served with a DDi subscription now.
Aside from the 'taking books with you places' aspect. Not all of us have laptops/netbooks. The portability issue still provides decent reasons to purchase books.
And apparently I'm a freak, as I'd rather read and mull over the mechanics of a feat or power entry than fluff. I guess I like reading technical stuff.
And apparently I'm a freak, as I'd rather read and mull over the mechanics of a feat or power entry than fluff. I guess I like reading technical stuff.
Which is fine, because its still in there, there is still tons of stuff to read over about feats and powers, no lack there! But you can't get too much out of a book with tons of mechanics, you can only write so much about how this feat gives you bonuses to this or that.
I prefer to create my own worlds but I value the fluff given as it gives me ideas, even if I can't use it directly.
Basically anything I can use to make a better campaign, be from from WotC or some of the creative and devious minds on the forums, is all good for me.
This. Without interesting fluff, there's literally no reason to by the books. I subscribe to DDI so I get the crunch anyway. And I get more crunch every couple days. I'm glad Dragon doesn't have too much fluff, but I enjoy sitting down with the books and just reading them.
+1
Not much to add here, but I really liked PP, even though I have no particular use for it right now.
As has been said, if you're anti-fluff in books, you're best served with a DDi subscription now.
Aside from the 'taking books with you places' aspect. Not all of us have laptops/netbooks. The portability issue still provides decent reasons to purchase books.
And apparently I'm a freak, as I'd rather read and mull over the mechanics of a feat or power entry than fluff. I guess I like reading technical stuff.
I hear you. The thing for me is that i don't have a laptop and I don't always have easy access to a computer, so its simply impossible for me to always bring digital versions of whatever rules i want to use. The less fluff is in the books, the more actual rules i can physically carry with me to the table, thus im not looking for tomes with 50+% of the pages that i can't use. Besides, while the search aspect is useful, referencing the compendium is an absolute pain in the ass compared to flipping through a book when you are trying to look at full list class powers or compare monsters.
The main issue though, is that DnD is a creative outlet for me and, when i DM, world building is most of the fun of the experience. I simply don't care for books with too much fluff because ill never use it: the reason im playing the game is to make that stuff up, not use someone else's. Other folks don't have the time, desire, or ability to come up with a bunch of stuff though and i get that. YMMV.
And I believe that the fluff should be something the DM and the players create for themselves. I don't want to see paragon paths become like prestige classes did in late 3rd, taking up four or five pages with one page of crunch and four pages of crap that doesn't even make sense.
OK, I lied.
I see exactly where you are coming from, but I loved the fluff from PP because it was so open-ended.
I hate the idea of buying a pre-packaged adventure and playing it word for word. I'm a scavenger. I'll 'comandeer' ideas from wherever I can and splice them into an interesting, customized story.
The Fluff from Primal Power is a veritable GOLD MINE for that exact situation. Lots and lots of little blurbs that get me thinking. Lots and lots of little details to squeeze into an existing plot. Lots of jumping-off points if my players decide to go gallivanting off into the sunset, ignoring my previously planned material.
Personally, I think Primal Power was a home run with the fluff/crunch ratio, though I am somewhat disappointed with the Druid's focus on Beast Form powers, and any kind of PP or ED that emphasized a balance between the two themes. They all emphasized "omg ur better in beast mode" or vice verca, which basically forces you to choose at some point.
:/
I would personally prefer the books to simply supply the crunch. I can invent for myself using the power of imaginaaaation the fluff. What I can't do is create 200+ new elements to the D&D environment that are playtested and coordinated thematically and thoughtfully composed. Thus, I need crunch, not fluff.
However, I will not stir in riot should the books turn towards fluff in an attempt to give flesh to the books. I understand the interest in the fluff for the younglings. And we still got a good deal of crunch regardless.
I'm very happy with Wardens since Primal Power. I'm more happy with the distinctions between the different builds of Barbarians. The Thaneborn, the Whirling, the Rageblood, and the Thunderborn feel VERY different, fluff-wise. They didn't come off that way immediately crunch-wise. That's the sort of thing that really resonates.
The Spirit Way and the various reverance patterns were also well written, and helps Shinto-out the Primal evocations and rituals and spirtualism. It feels VERY different from Divine now, which is good, because it felt in this odd place between Divine, Arcane, and Elemental.
Finally, the Geography Backgrounds were really, really nice in fluffing out different extreme regions of wilderness that tribes might live in. I found regions of my world setting that I've already made resonating with these geographical backgrounds, and actually empowered and expanded by them. It was fun to read about these wild and dangerous places, and made me more excited to visit the similar places in my own campaigns. Also, the other backgrounds were golden.
There was a lacking of PPaths and EDests in places, however, so I can see some people's worries about fluff and cruch balance. I feel for the most part it was very well balanced, though there were some cases that I just couldn't find the right EDest or PPath for a character concept I had.
This was especially bad for the warden who had no real class fluff in PHB2.
Crunch is probably the least interesting reason to buy a book.
It's only really useful IF you're playing a character that can use it and is only useful while the edition is active. No one will give one-shake for Martial Power in six or so years when 5e drops because the entire book, grounded in mechanics, will be useless. Fluff heavy books will survive an edition change better and might have more lasting reading value.
The less fluff is in the books, the more actual rules i can physically carry with me to the table, thus im not looking for tomes with 50+% of the pages that i can't use.
If maximum transportational efficiency is your goal then DDi really is the best solution. For the cost of 1 year's worth of D&D books you could probably afford a decent mini-laptop plus a 1 year subscription to DDi. A mini-laptop is as portable as any 1 book, but can contain the combined information of an entire library. Best of all, while the initial investment is the same as a year's worth of books, subsequent years only require you to maintain the cost of your DDi account so you save money in the long run.
The less fluff is in the books, the more actual rules i can physically carry with me to the table, thus im not looking for tomes with 50+% of the pages that i can't use.
If maximum transportational efficiency is your goal then DDi really is the best solution. For the cost of 1 year's worth of D&D books you could probably afford a decent mini-laptop plus a 1 year subscription to DDi. A mini-laptop is as portable as any 1 book, but can contain the combined information of an entire library. Best of all, while the initial investment is the same as a year's worth of books, subsequent years only require you to maintain the cost of your DDi account so you save money in the long run.
A 300$ laptop sounds like more trouble that its worth.
Plus you can probably get them for even less these days. And, unlike your 4e books, they're as useful for the next RPG you´ll play as they are for this one.
For me; more fluff please. It gets my imagination rolling, which I find more interesting then crunch (I can up with my own fairly easily, if I need any)
A 300$ laptop is the value of what? 7 books? And it does so much more, since it contains what you consider the relevant part of every book, plus handy DMing tools, campaign notes, dice rollers... it's seriously a good investment if you only want the crunch.
Indeed, and if one is willing to make a somewhat more long term investment (say the cost of two years worth of books) one can get a very good laptop. For those that think having a laptop at the table is distracting or takes up too much table space, that is why I suggested a mini-laptop. Not only are they fairly inexpensive, but they take up little space and are easy to see over.
I dream of the day that I can finally convince my entire group to purchase these so that we can give up all the clutter created by piles books, character sheets, and note cards. I still enjoy flipping through actual books, the visceral feel of paper between my fingers, but books take up far too much table space come game night.
I'd enjoy it if the books had larger page counts, so they could fit more in. I'd also enjoy a novel line based on the core fluff, like the dawn war, the birth of the abyss, the fall of " He who was", the rise of the ravenqueen, the death of Io and anything else I could get my hands on.
As a DM, its my job to provide lots of fluff for adventures, and while my players are often entertained by it, its not fun for ME to read, since I'm the author. I also don't like playing my own adventures for the same reason. I already know what happens, whats going to happen and what started it all. Nothing new or suprising. But when I read fluff from OTHER people, it entertains me.
The fluff of 4e is new, different and as exciting as fictional stories can be. Then again, I'm the kind of person who read all the fluffly little description text on my magic cards, ten times over. IMO, if D&D was nothing but mechanics, I'd be playing warhammer FB or 40k, because without the fluff, D&D would be very boring as an rpg or a badly done wargame.
*shifts away from opportunity comments*
*shadowsteps out of thread*
As has been said, if you're anti-fluff in books, you're best served with a DDi subscription now.
Aside from the 'taking books with you places' aspect. Not all of us have laptops/netbooks. The portability issue still provides decent reasons to purchase books.
And apparently I'm a freak, as I'd rather read and mull over the mechanics of a feat or power entry than fluff. I guess I like reading technical stuff.
I wasn't saying that you should necessarily give up books altogether. All I was saying was that, for the first time in the history of the game, you have an option to get a "crunch only" delivery of content.
Your desire to read mechanics don't make you a freak any more than my desire to read tons of fluff. We just have different tastes. Fortunately, both of our tastes can legitimately be served.
--------------------------
Without quoting everyone in the thread, here's a general answer. I understand the desire for lots of crunch. Fortunately, both sides of this discussion can legitimately get what they want. There is enough room in the books for both crunch and fluff.
I've heard the arguments for books solely composed of crunch, but come on, be reasonable. It's "our" game, meaning varied interests need to be served. There is a lot of crunch in these books. There's nothing wrong with serving those who want/need fluff. Keep in mind, WotC is trying to bring new blood into the hobby as well as satistfy old customers. Just because "you" have all the fluff you'll ever need from previous editions doesn't mean everyone does.
I understand the desire for lots of crunch.[...]
There is enough room in the books for both crunch and fluff.
I've heard the arguments for books solely composed of crunch, [...]
There is a lot of crunch in these books.
What's ``crunch``? What's ``fluff``?
Keep in mind, WotC is trying to bring new blood into the hobby as well as satistfy old customers.
So, WotC is trying to ``bring new blood`` to your hobby too?
Well, I have no idea why there was a link to this thread from where I was, but I play Magic. And this ``bringing in new blood`` thing I really don't mind. But why is it that I have links to where ever I am now on the Magic pages?
Dunno, don't care. I just hope this is more ``crunch`` than ``fluff``. (If those terms mean what I think they could mean)
I understand the desire for lots of crunch.[...]
There is enough room in the books for both crunch and fluff.
I've heard the arguments for books solely composed of crunch, [...]
There is a lot of crunch in these books.
What's ``crunch``? What's ``fluff``?Keep in mind, WotC is trying to bring new blood into the hobby as well as satistfy old customers.
So, WotC is trying to ``bring new blood`` to your hobby too?
Well, I have no idea why there was a link to this thread from where I was, but I play Magic. And this ``bringing in new blood`` thing I really don't mind. But why is it that I have links to where ever I am now on the Magic pages?
Dunno, don't care. I just hope this is more ``crunch`` than ``fluff``. (If those terms mean what I think they could mean)
Mechanics/rules are crunch. Everything else is fluff. (story)
A 300$ laptop is the value of what? 7 books? And it does so much more, since it contains what you consider the relevant part of every book, plus handy DMing tools, campaign notes, dice rollers... it's seriously a good investment if you only want the crunch.
Sure, a laptop is a good investment but i could never settle for one as cheap as the price i pay for a year's worth of books. Ive known a few people with cheap laptops and they really seem like more trouble than they are worth.
Really though, im not looking for only the crunch. I just don't want reference books where over half of the page count isnt useful for me at the table (like the new Draconomicon). The Primal Power book is actually a pretty decent balance of fluff (or "prose" as one of my players more kindly puts it) and crunch, though i prefer the Martial Powere ratio.
And as i said before too, i find looking up some things in the compendium to be a pain in the ass. Comparing power list of entire classes or contrasting groups of monster blocks is much less frustrating with a hard copy IMO, thus i usually prefer to whip out the dead-tree product when im perusing new rules.
They are made specially to be used as portable browsers, PDF-readers, type-writers, etc.
One of my colleagues has one and they are awesome for what they were made to do.
Check: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netbook
I'm not suggesting buying a cheap second hand laptop, but a machine specially made for what it is you want, a portable reference document
I've been noticing that the books are starting to come in more uniform page counts so you can expect a power source book, player's guide to a setting, or at this point new item books to be about 159 pages, the campaign guides, new player's handbooks and maybe the yearly dragon are going to be larger. If more people buy the new fluff ratio books then that will be trend, if sells drop then there will be a shift to something else.
As for the fluff in primal power I enjoyed reading it and it has great revisiting potiential as I can look how to intergrat the fluff into a character or a campaign. As for martial power I think I have only cracked the book open 3 times for myself in the last 5 months or so am I am playing a ranger with most of my encounter powers and half my dailies from the book.
If WoTC can keep the fluff ingaging and fresh as Primal Power (PP) I would not complain one bit, however that being said PP has set the bar very high for the next book. And the second set of power sources books are going to have a lot of work to make the new model work, without direct power creep. I can see martial power 2 being more like PP for fluff as there are not that many concept build I can think of right away that are not already covered.
Also, while I was already a big fan of the primal classes in the PHB2 actually reading about what they kept referencing really put some of the PP and Daily powers into perspective.
As a quick note, for people that keep saying they don't want to pay for the insider membership to just use the compendium for the crunch aspect, there are also plenty of people that can't/won't pay the money or have no access to the "fluff" articles that WOTC puts out. Some people out there need the fluff in the books to help with their games more then the crunch.
The new edition Netbooks aren't actually low-budget laptops (which is probably what you are thinking about) but high-quality, low performance machines.
They are made specially to be used as portable browsers, PDF-readers, type-writers, etc.
One of my colleagues has one and they are awesome for what they were made to do.
Check: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netbook
I'm not suggesting buying a cheap second hand laptop, but a machine specially made for what it is you want, a portable reference document
Would one run the character builder?
Is there a way i'm not aware of to access the compendium on the fly with no internet access without a pirated bootleg version? The store my group usually plays at has no wifi and is also in the middle of a reception dead-zone.
If i could get something cheap that runs the character/encounter/monster builders, that might be pretty sweet though.
As much as I'd enjoy some story to go along with the mechanics however, I simply can't justify the cost of a D&D hardcover for some backround fluff. Being a D&D Insider has it's drawbacks for me; I'm buying less books now and I'm less inclined than ever to 'splurge' on stuff I can already view as part of the Character Builder.
I'll have to be content to rely on D&D Insider articles for fluff, or develop my own. The last few months have been very crunchy however. Lots of shorter articles, focusing on feats, powers, etc; very little story to speak of. I'm still a huge fan but I hope for a swing in the other direction soon; I hope a balance can be found.
I'm going to look into the netbook idea.
Is there a way i'm not aware of to access the compendium on the fly with no internet access without a pirated bootleg version? The store my group usually plays at has no wifi and is also in the middle of a reception dead-zone.
If i could get something cheap that runs the character/encounter/monster builders, that might be pretty sweet though.
I would personally suggest going the distance and getting a cheap laptop. Not cheap as in crappy. You can find good laptops on sale or lowered priced around, pretty easily. Upgraded stuff comes out and they sell off older stock, which is still perfectly fine for everything except the cutting edge tech.
I got a laptop for 350 bucks and it lasted for 4 years. I used it daily and normally it was on for 12+ hours a day. The only reason it finally died was due to viruses. The thing ran like a champ. Compaq laptop of all things. Then go out and buy an external hard drive. (150 gigs - 300 gigs would be perfect and not to pricey) My buddy just got a 80 gig laptop (sony) and a 150 gig external for less than 300 bucks and the thing runs great. Shop around at retail stores like frys, best buy and places like that, but don't neglect the small computer outlet shops, which tend to have unbeatable deals sometimes.
I'm not a fan of netbooks. My ex had one. It would overheat quickly, didn't have a cd try, was way to small and very breakable. Plus, you couldn't do half the things with it, that you can with a laptop. But some of my friends love their netbooks, so it might be perfect for you.
No harm in looking around for the best option at the best deal, though.
Fluff is good. Fluff grants news ways of looking at material the looking at crunch doesn't always provide - insight other people had for the builds.
In fact, I'm happy that there's been more and more fluff with each power book. Fluff helps flesh out the points of light setting. It can give players an idea of how a character in their chosen class might interact with the rest of the world (such as avengers sometimes being considered heretics by the official church). It can help give quest ideas for the DM. Even if you don't necessarily use the fluff when building your character, it's useful to have a baseline understanding of what the designers expected your class to be/do. Fluff is great! Fluff is your friend.
I'd rather the fluff be used to inspire ideas not as a space filler. A lot of the fluff should be kept to the campaign or upcoming racial books. This is not to say all of the fluff in Primal Power was bad - the fluff for the Warden and Shaman classes was spectacular, but almost everything else seemed like it was a waste of space that wasn't evocative at all. Seemed like it was more of a chore to slug through, and why should D&D be a chore?
Keep the fluff to five or six pages and then to the sidebars, not to 30% of the book like it's been in Primal and Divine Power. 4E used to be about letting us decide on our fluff, let's keep it that way instead of returning to the days of late 3.5 please.
Fluff is great. Crunch is great. Fluff is great when it empowers the crunch. Fluff is great when it can be reused in the future as well. Crunch can't be reused as much. Even small fluff, like the reappearance of Goodberry in Primal Power, gives a sense of "Oh, I know what this feels like and is all about!"
If you want very little fluff, the Compendium and the Character Builder are your best friends, because they include only the fluff necessary to make the most basic of choices, and don't give you all that information about the story of the classes and the Power Source. Congratulations! You don't NEED to buy the books. It's really worth the investment of a laptop. Even though I don't have a Windows laptop (I have a Macbook), having the Compendium on hand is an enormous benefit to my games. And Macbooks rarely die so easily. Put a good $1,000 investment in a Macbook, plus $60 in a membership, and you're paying for everything that's come out thus far. That's right. You might as well have not bought a single book since Spring 2008, because they've payed for it by this point. And we're only two years into the edition, with plenty more to come.
They didn't return to 3.5e. It was less than 30% of the book either. The fluff was where it counted: Giving us an understanding of the differences between Divine and Primal reverence, giving us glorious backgrounds, and making the classes flow better. This is nothing like the copious amounts of fluff dedicated to each Prestige Classes and the 10% of actual crunch material put in those books.
Fluff is great. Crunch is great. Fluff is great when it empowers the crunch. Fluff is great when it can be reused in the future as well. Crunch can't be reused as much. Even small fluff, like the reappearance of Goodberry in Primal Power, gives a sense of "Oh, I know what this feels like and is all about!"
If you want very little fluff, the Compendium and the Character Builder are your best friends, because they include only the fluff necessary to make the most basic of choices, and don't give you all that information about the story of the classes and the Power Source. Congratulations! You don't NEED to buy the books. It's really worth the investment of a laptop. Even though I don't have a Windows laptop (I have a Macbook), having the Compendium on hand is an enormous benefit to my games. And Macbooks rarely die so easily. Put a good $1,000 investment in a Macbook, plus $60 in a membership, and you're paying for everything that's come out thus far. That's right. You might as well have not bought a single book since Spring 2008, because they've payed for it by this point. And we're only two years into the edition, with plenty more to come.
Marandahir, it's not crunch I hate. It's the popcorn crunch that WoTc is employing. The stuff that looks good at first but upon further inspection is a bore to read through and is simply there for page filler. They kept it to the sidebars in Martial and Arcane Power and have brought it back in the last two powers. 3.5 was riddled with it. The last two monster manuals, most of the later prestige classes, etc. all had pages and pages dedicated to low quality fluff that very few people actually went through or enjoyed. This is not to say all fluff is bad. WotC can do good fluff. They did it in the environmental books. They did it in almost all of their Eberron supplements.
They aren't doing it with Primal or Divine Power. They are returning to popcorn fluff and I'm just requesting that they keep it to sidebars rather than dedicated 16 - 30 pages of it that could easily be more feats, paragon pathes, and epic destinies like we enjoyed in Martial Power. It's not an unreasonable request, so please tone down the harshness in your future replies.
They aren't doing it with Primal or Divine Power. They are returning to popcorn fluff and I'm just requesting that they keep it to sidebars rather than dedicated 16 - 30 pages of it that could easily be more feats, paragon pathes, and epic destinies like we enjoyed in Martial Power. It's not an unreasonable request, so please tone down the harshness in your future replies.
Except that's little more than a subjective pinion. Plenty of folks in this thread have chimed in that they enjoyed the fluff in Primal Power. You claim that the fluff is little more than popcorn filler, I could just as easily claim that most of the feats and powers in Martial Powers were popcorn filler. Yes because it had more fluff Primal Power had less TOTAL crunch, but it seems to me that it still had just as much QUALITY crunch, and that most of what was trimmed were the junk options no one ever takes (save the occasional oddball build).
PLAY STYLE: 'KEEP lT SlMPLE'
Playing a barbarian can be straightforward fun. You aren't
necessarily expected to study the situation and choose
the optimal path. You can say, "Look, I know there might
be excellent tactical things to do, like feeding so-and-so
a healing potion or using my second wind. But that's not
me. I'm just going to hit this guy really hard." Everyone
around the table nods because hey, you're the barbarian.
If you don't hit the enemy hard, who will?
"Hey, Howard, mind giving me a healing potion? I'm about to die. Joe there can take out that bugbear you're fighting on his turn, and if I can't launch so-and-so spell by next round we're ****ed."
"No! I am a Barbarian! I must smash! If I don't, who will?"
"Oh, all right. I guess that's conducive to the rest of the group having fun."
The group nods sagely.
Oh, WotC.
Honestly, wtf? How is that good fluff? At all?
I don't want all fluff gone. I want the stuff that is used as filler to be kept to the sidebars. Will people quit insinuating that i'm not a roleplayer just because I don't want horrible fluff?
For the record, Martial Power does indeed have good fluff in it, specifically in the Paragon Path write-ups. IMO, Arcane Power has the weakest fluff.
Arcane Power is my favorite so far but yeah, it's weakest in the fluff.
As is, the Power series is solid I think. If they're looking to shake things up a bit however, they can't go wrong with some quality fluff. The trick is to keep a balance.
Marandahir, it's not crunch I hate. It's the popcorn crunch that WoTc is employing. The stuff that looks good at first but upon further inspection is a bore to read through and is simply there for page filler. They kept it to the sidebars in Martial and Arcane Power and have brought it back in the last two powers. 3.5 was riddled with it. The last two monster manuals, most of the later prestige classes, etc. all had pages and pages dedicated to low quality fluff that very few people actually went through or enjoyed. This is not to say all fluff is bad. WotC can do good fluff. They did it in the environmental books. They did it in almost all of their Eberron supplements.
They aren't doing it with Primal or Divine Power. They are returning to popcorn fluff and I'm just requesting that they keep it to sidebars rather than dedicated 16 - 30 pages of it that could easily be more feats, paragon pathes, and epic destinies like we enjoyed in Martial Power. It's not an unreasonable request, so please tone down the harshness in your future replies.
I'm sorry if I sounded harsh. I didn't mean to, so please don't take it to heart. However, it seems that many people here enjoy the fluff in the book. I mentioned a lot of the great fluff - more backgrounds than any other Power Book led to fluff about the wilderness that is in the game. Those backgrounds were good fluff. Most of the 2-3 page Class discussion fluff is very flavourful and enjoyable. Playing simple doesn't mean that you ruin the party. Someone else can heal the person, and you might be closer to death, but you can rely on your Leader to heal you. The Barbarian is primarily a bit hitter, and he needs to hit hard. It's a valid roleplay option, it just means that the party needs to support you more. It doesn't necessarily harm the party.
The fluff is solid, not cookie cutter, in my opinion. There are many who agree with me. I understand you dislike some of the fluff. This is unfortunate, but in no reason means that you don't roleplay, and people who critise you thus are being odd. Many players (myself included) find the fluff as something that allows us to see things in ways that we didn't before, and open up new options. You said you liked the fluff in Martial Power and Arcane Power. I felt that it wasn't enough fluff, though it was solid. Many people won't buy Martial Power because virtually the entire book is in the Compendium; everything save the sidebars. The class and PPath and EDest fluff is all in the Compendium, so that fluff is accessible without the books. I have a subscription, so this is what I'm primarily paying for when I buy each book. I aggree that making the fluff tip-top is ideal and of importance, because better fluff means better inspiration.
So please, please don't bite for constructive criticism. I didn't mean any harm, and apologise for making you uncomfortable, but I stand by my opinions.
I don't want all fluff gone. I want the stuff that is used as filler to be kept to the sidebars. Will people quit insinuating that i'm not a roleplayer just because I don't want horrible fluff?
I guess I misinterpreted what you said. But the example you gave of the play the barbarian simple fluff, was probably directed at newer players to remind them that it's ok to be simple. I like the expanded fluff, if I got the point in the first paragraph I could move on, if I didn't I'd keep reading. Some of it was enthralling, other not so much. I wash the warden sidebars had had something besides the groups, I don't need that many but it's there in an easy to ignore spot so whatever I got the structure if I decide to use them if not, oh well.
Now, before anyone lashes out with a tantrum, I love 4e. But, I still see its flaws and lacking fluff, the very spirit of D&D, is a flaw. You can play D&D with any ruleset. But without the D&D story, backing up the rules, its not D&D, its just another game.
Wotc has done a good job with 3x and 4e IMO. But they're far from perfect and can improve in many ways. They've given a reasonable amount of fluff in the books, any less and it wouldn't be worth my money. But I would enjoy a more "D&D" feel to 4e beyond the vanity and brand name. It looks and feels like D&D, but when you gut the creature that is 4e, you see it has very little inside.
The game needs more fluff, not less and this opinion (my opinion) is coming from a 4e fan who spends money on the product.
Also, the quality of the fluff they include is subjective. One person's trash is anothers treasure. Some hate the primal power fluff, while others love it. Thats a perfect example. Just because someone hates something or finds it low quality does not translate to fact.
There's much more in there than I realized from merely browsing the book in-store. I absolutely love Chapter 5 Primal Options. From page 116 to 129, there's a description of the 'Spirit Way' and 'Primal Spirits'.
I've developed some of my own fluff concerning the 'Old Faith' (as I call it) but this is much more polished than my homebrew efforts. I especially enjoy the section on The people, which talks about followers of the spirit way being essentially a great tribe. I had tried to bring that same concept out in my own hobbyist writing and never quite achieved it.
I'm very satisfied and hope this indicates a trend with future Power books (and others series, where appropriate). As long as they can maintain a balance (in my eyes at least), I'll keep buying D&D hardcovers like this.
More fluff is good. I'd like to see at least a page of pure fluff with each class and race in the future. I'd like to see several pages of fluff on power sources in each power source book. Primal Power is the first 4e book I've actually wanted to read in quite some time, barring DMGII's chapter on Sigil.
I'm all for adding to the history and background of the PoL setting, just so long as it's added to a book made for that purpose. The Points of Light Campaign Setting, let's call it.
I'm all for adding to the history and background of the PoL setting, just so long as it's added to a book made for that purpose. The Points of Light Campaign Setting, let's call it.
Except that PoL isn't a settings, it's a thematic style that sets the base line assumptions of all campings (small/isolated pockets of civilization amid a vast untamed/unexplored wilderness.
Furthermore, the fluff in the core books isn't meant to describe a setting. It has no ture history, no detailed geography, and only the vaguest of details. Rather default world is little more than an outline meant as an example of how all the various mechanical aspects of the game can come together, and is best used as a springboard to inspire players and DMs. In this respect the fluff of Primal Power shouldn't be a problem. Yes it describes a default world, but the concepts of spirits, primal manifestations of the natural world, is something that can exist in all worlds. The names of those spirits, and their role in the history of the world might vary from setting to setting, but ultimately there is a place for the basic concept of the spirits themselves in all worlds.
Could Primal Power describe the thematic uses of the primal spirits without resorting to stories set in a default world? Maybe, but humans tend to remember information conveyed by a story far more than information convey like a technical manual. Long after 4e is just another entry in the history of gaming, its mechanics considered archaic and obsolete, it is the fluff that will stand the test of time and be remembered. Maybe not in all of its limited details, but in its fundamental essence.
Openended fluff is fine for most gamers.
The only ones who complain are the ones whod rather have mechanics fill that space. But there seems to be a balance of mechanics and fluff that most gamers can live with.
Regarding those who want more fluff, the Dragon articles are great.
Regarding those who want more crunch, the Compendium is awesome.
A D&DI account is money well spent.
One of the people laid off was responsible for the abomination of fluff in Primal Power. I'd like to say I was happy, but people getting laid off is never a joyous occasion. They couldn't have just did something to his voicebox or something?
wow... just wow.
One of the people laid off was responsible for the abomination of fluff in Primal Power. I'd like to say I was happy, but people getting laid off is never a joyous occasion. They couldn't have just did something to his voicebox or something?
wow... just wow.
Seriously. That's one of the stupidest things I've ever read here, and that's saying a lot.
Except that PoL isn't a settings, it's a thematic style that sets the base line assumptions of all campings (small/isolated pockets of civilization amid a vast untamed/unexplored wilderness.
Then I'm really not understanding the nature of the fluff in Primal Power, apparently. See, I read that and I see the interaction between some specific characters (spirits, primordials, and dieties) that does not happen in the other settings (Eberron, Faerun, etc.) nor is it appropriate to make that assumption for any homebrewed settings.
And I see the same thing in Divine Power. Unless you're saying that Eberron, Faerun, Dark Sun, and all the other settings had a Dawn War, then that event is setting-specific. The specific setting being Points of Light.
Now, I can understand that the original idea was to create a feel for the new edition and that the term "Points of Light" was a name coined for this open-ended pre-setting. But it seems as though they're changing their minds about this pre-setting framework and trying to give it its own specific history (referring to the Dawn War, again, among other things). In which case, I'd just prefer they keep it to its own setting, independent of the setting-neutral books (Martial Power had it right, IMO).
One of the people laid off was responsible for the abomination of fluff in Primal Power. I'd like to say I was happy, but people getting laid off is never a joyous occasion. They couldn't have just did something to his voicebox or something?
That is one of the rudest things I have ever read. Come on Khyber show some restraint.
I agree with Tectormans assessment. Keep the Core rules setting-neutral. Turn all nonopenended specific settings into 'alternative worlds', like FR, Eberron, Darksun, etc.
Then I'm really not understanding the nature of the fluff in Primal Power, apparently. See, I read that and I see the interaction between some specific characters (spirits, primordials, and dieties) that does not happen in the other settings (Eberron, Faerun, etc.) nor is it appropriate to make that assumption for any homebrewed settings.
Again, the themes of the primal spirits is told as a story because that is what generally makes it easiest for most people to understand and remember. The exact identities of the parties involved or the history of their interactions isn't what's important.
And I see the same thing in Divine Power. Unless you're saying that Eberron, Faerun, Dark Sun, and all the other settings had a Dawn War, then that event is setting-specific. The specific setting being Points of Light.
I can't speak for every setting, but Eberron certainly has themes that echo the Dawn War.
In the beginning there were the three great progenitors. Syiberys, the dragon above (associated with the astral sea); Khyber, the dragon bellow (associated with the elemental chaos); and Eberron, the dragon between (associated with the natural world). The three progenitors worked together to create every thing that is, but Khyber grew jealous of Siberys and so slew the dragon above. To prevent Khyber from unmaking everything, Eberron embraced the dragon bellow sealing away both their powers. Thus Eberron became the world, with Khyber bound in its darkest depths, while the remains of Siberys formed a starry shroud in the heavens.
A conflict between astral and elemental powers at the dawn of creation, ultimately resolved by the intervention of the natural world, sounds a lot like the Dawn War to me. It differers in the exact details, but the basic theme is there.
Edit: Forgotten Realms also has the Dawn War, at least the 4e version of the realms. Except in that setting the gods and primordials reached a compromise. They split the world in two, with the gods ruling over Toril, while the primordials ruled the world of Abier. These worlds were separated for eons, until the events of the Spellplague caused portions of each to be traded between the twin worlds.
Now, I can understand that the original idea was to create a feel for the new edition and that the term "Points of Light" was a name coined for this open-ended pre-setting. But it seems as though they're changing their minds about this pre-setting framework and trying to give it its own specific history (referring to the Dawn War, again, among other things). In which case, I'd just prefer they keep it to its own setting, independent of the setting-neutral books (Martial Power had it right, IMO).
Again, points of light is not a setting. It is only a theme. It has nothing to do with any of the fluff presented in any of the core materials. It is instead the guiding theme by which 4e adventures are built (that of a isolated pockets of civilization separated a vast untamed wilderness). All settings in 4e are designed around the points of light thematic model.
There is also fluff, and that fluff describes an assumed/default setting. Some people mistakenly believe that the name of that setting is Points of Light, but that presumption is in error. The default setting has no name, not does it truly even possess a history or geography. Places exist, but where they are in relationship to each other is left intentionally vague. Historical events exist, but when they happened in relationship to each other is left intentionally vague. All of the vagueness is intentionally so because not only does it allow the DM to fill in the details to suit their own homebrew setting, but it also allows DMs to port aspects to any official setting as well.
Then I'm really not understanding the nature of the fluff in Primal Power, apparently. See, I read that and I see the interaction between some specific characters (spirits, primordials, and dieties) that does not happen in the other settings (Eberron, Faerun, etc.) nor is it appropriate to make that assumption for any homebrewed settings.
Again, the themes of the primal spirits is told as a story because that is what generally makes it easiest for most people to understand and remember. The exact identities of the parties involved or the history of their interactions isn't what's important.And I see the same thing in Divine Power. Unless you're saying that Eberron, Faerun, Dark Sun, and all the other settings had a Dawn War, then that event is setting-specific. The specific setting being Points of Light.
I can't speak for every setting, but Eberron certainly has themes that echo the Dawn War.In the beginning there were the three great progenitors. Syiberys, the dragon above (associated with the astral sea); Khyber, the dragon bellow (associated with the elemental chaos); and Eberron, the dragon between (associated with the natural world). The three progenitors worked together to create every thing that is, but Khyber grew jealous of Siberys and so slew the dragon above. To prevent Khyber from unmaking everything, Eberron embraced the dragon bellow sealing away both their powers. Thus Eberron became the world, with Khyber bound in its darkest depths, while the remains of Siberys formed a starry shroud in the heavens.
A conflict between astral and elemental powers at the dawn of creation, ultimately resolved by the intervention of the natural world, sounds a lot like the Dawn War to me. It differers in the exact details, but the basic theme is there.Edit: Forgotten Realms also has the Dawn War, at least the 4e version of the realms. Except in that setting the gods and primordials reached a compromise. They split the world in two, with the gods ruling over Toril, while the primordials ruled the world of Abier. These worlds were separated for eons, until the events of the Spellplague caused portions of each to be traded between the twin worlds.
Now, I can understand that the original idea was to create a feel for the new edition and that the term "Points of Light" was a name coined for this open-ended pre-setting. But it seems as though they're changing their minds about this pre-setting framework and trying to give it its own specific history (referring to the Dawn War, again, among other things). In which case, I'd just prefer they keep it to its own setting, independent of the setting-neutral books (Martial Power had it right, IMO).
Again, points of light is not a setting. It is only a theme. It has nothing to do with any of the fluff presented in any of the core materials. It is instead the guiding theme by which 4e adventures are built (that of a isolated pockets of civilization separated a vast untamed wilderness). All settings in 4e are designed around the points of light thematic model.
There is also fluff, and that fluff describes an assumed/default setting. Some people mistakenly believe that the name of that setting is Points of Light, but that presumption is in error. The default setting has no name, not does it truly even possess a history or geography. Places exist, but where they are in relationship to each other is left intentionally vague. Historical events exist, but when they happened in relationship to each other is left intentionally vague. All of the vagueness is intentionally so because not only does it allow the DM to fill in the details to suit their own homebrew setting, but it also allows DMs to port aspects to any official setting as well.
Depends. They have recently announced some novels based in the setting aluded to in the default books. It was in this months dragon. The wording could go either way, but there are going to be novels based on PoL.
What does this mean to D&D, you ask? It means that these archetypes fit in almost ANY campaign, because these are universal archetypes, and with minor story refluffing (or ignoring the Dawn War fluff), you can utilise them in whatever game you want. I'm adding a host of my own, or modifying the list, and Primal Spirits are great about that, because there's so many of them that you can add as many as you want and STILL remain within the core fluff.
I wouldn't be surprised if we get an article in a Dragon or Dungeon magazine a couple months down the road adding info on major Primal Spirits in Eberron or in Faerûn. I would have preffered it if the Elf Relgions were actually Primal reverence (ancestor worship feels a lot more Primal than Divine), but that ship has sailed.
Depends. They have recently announced some novels based in the setting aluded to in the default books. It was in this months dragon. The wording could go either way, but there are going to be novels based on PoL.
True but that setting still isn't named Points of Light. In fact the anouncment made no mention of the setting have any name at all.
Quote: Ampersand, Dragon 382
including a new series of Dungeons & Dragons novels set in the world established in the core roleplaying game.
Now, whether or not this new series will fleshout the setting in any detail, however, even if it does that will not invalidate the vague qualities of the way fluff is used in the core material.
Really all I am saying is that Fluff can provide a new way of looking at the class, provide a baseline idea of class/race/whatever interacts in a general sense, and I feel the need to reiterate, gives people who CHOOSE NOT TO RUN HOMEBREW guidance on running these elements in appropriate setting.
Just saying
So instead of D&D the roleplaying game, you folks just want a 4th edition ruleset called D&D? Without the fluff, its not D&D. Simple as that. Fluff has always been part of the game. A big part. Infact, for a lot of us long time fans, its more important than mechanics.
That's the opposite of what I want. I feel that if they are going to take out space for crunch and replace it with fluff, they should make it good fluff and not fluff that justifies an atmosphere that allows for the barbarian (or druid, or any single one of the party) player to have fun at the expense at everyone elses.
Especially not half a page of "It's okay for you to bust down the door!" when it should only take a sentence.
So instead of D&D the roleplaying game, you folks just want a 4th edition ruleset called D&D? Without the fluff, its not D&D. Simple as that. Fluff has always been part of the game. A big part. Infact, for a lot of us long time fans, its more important than mechanics.
That's the opposite of what I want. I feel that if they are going to take out space for crunch and replace it with fluff, they should make it good fluff and not fluff that justifies an atmosphere that allows for the barbarian (or druid, or any single one of the party) player to have fun at the expense at everyone elses.
Especially not half a page of "It's okay for you to bust down the door!" when it should only take a sentence.
Please explain to me how one paragraph from half a sidebar = half a page? Seven sentences. Seven sentences on why it's okay for you to just go up ahead and burst down the door. No, it's not one sentence. One sentence would remove any room for an explanation for why you should be able to do something like that as a Barbarian. That one sentece would be wasted space, in that regards. It also says it "can be straight forward fun." Not that you can't play it with tactics in mind. The Whirling Barbarian and the Thaneborn Barbarian have been said time and time again that they should be less about rage and more about the calm within a storm of emotions and power. Thaneborn is one of the most tactically minded builds in the game. This Play Style: Keep It Simple sidebar is simply an example and explanation that while you're playing the Barbarian, it's alright to go ahead and be reckless more, especially if you're a high HP Rageblood, which leans itself more towards that play style, as it invokes the original form of the Class from past editions.
Are you telling me you're invalidating an entire book for 7 sentences? Is seven sentences, that is, half a sidebar, really replacing necessary crunch or fluff that could make the Barbarian MOAR AWESOMAR!! ?
Being reckless is a feature of a handful of class builds – the Bravura Warlord, the Chaos Sorcerer, the Rageblood Barbarian as well. Especially for the Barbarian, who has the HP to be reckless, and the power to let that recklessness pay off, it's okay.
Now, if you'd give examples of OTHER fluff in this book that you think it garbage, I'd gladly justify them as well. Because while you mentioned the Druid, the only fluff you seem dead-on enough to attack right out is one teenie sidebar. Half of one actually. Less room than you could fit a single Power. maybe a small background could have replaced it, but they're likely to be bad fluff too, right?
Please tell me what you do or do not like, since I loved this book. The fluff seemed dead on, and I'd love to hear your opinions on the REST of the book, since you don't seem to agree with me. And please don't take offence to ^, I meant it half in jest. I usually enjoy reading what you have to say, Lord of Khyber.
Personally I think the 'mortal warlord' bit was invented by Bane to hit on the Raven Queen at a Divine mixer :p
The fluff itself isn't very precise. One sidebar in Divine Power mentions that Bane is Kord's brother, while another one say that Bane was a mortal who killed and replaced the previous god of War! Two different stories!
Personally I think the 'mortal warlord' bit was invented by Bane to hit on the Raven Queen at a Divine mixer :p
Incorrect. Nothing in Divine Power says that Bane was Kord's brother. That was Bane's Deities & Demigods article, which apparently was retconned through Divine Power, since he's now a mortal king who usurped Tuern's godhood, rather than Tuern and Kord's brother, and Kord is now the son of Khala. This is probably because the war against Khala was fleshed out, and Kord was needed there.
It's irksome though, that that great article was completely retconned, and nothing has been said of it.
It's irksome though, that that great article was completely retconned, and nothing has been said of it.
That's 'cuz it wasn't retconned.
Mortals don't know the true stories of the gods (and in fact, even the Bane article says that it might be the true history). Some myths claim that Bane was Tuern's brother; some that he was a mortal warlord. I personally prefer the former--having written it and all
--but I'm always a proponent of having multiple possibilities when there are things that nobody can/should know for certain.It's irksome though, that that great article was completely retconned, and nothing has been said of it.
That's 'cuz it wasn't retconned.
Mortals don't know the true stories of the gods (and in fact, even the Bane article says that it might be the true history). Some myths claim that Bane was Tuern's brother; some that he was a mortal warlord. I personally prefer the former--having written it and all --but I'm always a proponent of having multiple possibilities when there are things that nobody can/should know for certain.
Now this is what I wanted to hear. One of the writers giving me a sound position on the official material. Thank you Ari Marmell!
The fluff itself isn't very precise. One sidebar in Divine Power mentions that Bane is Kord's brother, while another one say that Bane was a mortal who killed and replaced the previous god of War! Two different stories!
Personally I think the 'mortal warlord' bit was invented by Bane to hit on the Raven Queen at a Divine mixer :p
Incorrect. Nothing in Divine Power says that Bane was Kord's brother. That was Bane's Deities & Demigods article, which apparently was retconned through Divine Power, since he's now a mortal king who usurped Tuern's godhood, rather than Tuern and Kord's brother, and Kord is now the son of Khala. This is probably because the war against Khala was fleshed out, and Kord was needed there.
It's irksome though, that that great article was completely retconned, and nothing has been said of it.
You're right... I dunno why I thought it was in Divine Power oO