Ki (and Elemental) Power Source Speculation - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Ki (and Elemental) Power Source Speculation

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
wizardmon
Nov 13, 2008 15:57:21 The designer for Martial Power, Rob Heinsoo, discusses the Ki power source briefly here.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4spot/20081112a

Interview wrote:
#2
ceiling90
Nov 13, 2008 18:36:46 I'll agree with the possible idea that Elemental is "Asian" Arcane... As a lot of "magic" in Asian fantasy is based more on elements; not to say any thing that western magic didn't have some elemental ideas to it either. But I think it's simply more pronounced in Asian Mysticism.

And the thing is that I agree what Ki is something more than martial, it's a little beyond, bordering on magic.
#3
KoboldAvenger
Nov 13, 2008 20:38:39 Elements seems to be a pretty universal idea. Though the 4 elements is something mainly attributed to Aristotle, while the 5 elements is mainly attributed to Taoism.

I've certainly seen a variety of non-culturally specific elemental mages through out different editions of D&D I've bothered with. Many of those classes are loosely based on very western ideas of elements. And I can think of another RPG where 4 Archangels were each tied to a particular element (Gabriel=Fire, Michael=Air and so on). And then there's the Arabian themed class the Sha'ir back from Al-Quadim which was a very elemental class as well with a lot of stuff involving Genies (even though I have no idea where the Dao actually came from, I've never heard of such them outside of D&D).

I'm one that wants the Incarnate to be a Ki Class, though I'd say they could be controllers rather than leaders, even if the class from Magic of the Incarnum was sort of a cleric stand-in. That book had a lot of neat ideas, even if hardly anyone used Incarnum.
#4
merrikcale
Nov 13, 2008 21:13:29 that would make sense for an "Oriental Adventures"
#5
Pyrate_Jib
Nov 13, 2008 22:07:07 I bet we see the Psionic power book first (not what I want but I bet that is how it rolls out) in 2010.
#6
narukagami
Nov 13, 2008 22:10:16 My 2 cents, elements in T(D)aoism and other "eastern philosophies" seem to be more of a philosophical concept and are fairly different from Aristotle's concept of physical building blocks. They're not entirely elements is the Western sense, really, they're more like labels applied to groupings of common traits.
Ki being anything but "Asian Martial" is a losing battle, I've little doubt ignorance will beat out intelligence with these writers as long as it sells more books to the drooling masses.
But whatever, I've completely given up on Wizards and this community to ever even attempt to properly portray or give respect to Asian cultures. Enjoy your bigoted stereotypes.

God I'm getting crotchety....
#7
Steely_Dan
Nov 14, 2008 3:08:08 While I do not want the Ki power source to be the catch all power for any class with an Asian/Oriental theme/title, I do have a few speculations:

-Monk = Ki Striker

-Sohei = Ki Defender

-Wu-Jen = Elemental Controller
#8
styphathal
Nov 14, 2008 4:05:08
My 2 cents, elements in T(D)aoism and other "eastern philosophies" seem to be more of a philosophical concept and are fairly different from Aristotle's concept of physical building blocks. They're not entirely elements is the Western sense, really, they're more like labels applied to groupings of common traits.
Ki being anything but "Asian Martial" is a losing battle, I've little doubt ignorance will beat out intelligence with these writers as long as it sells more books to the drooling masses.
But whatever, I've completely given up on Wizards and this community to ever even attempt to properly portray or give respect to Asian cultures. Enjoy your bigoted stereotypes.

God I'm getting crotchety....

I for one hope they keep Power Rangers, Naurto, and Dragon Ball out of my game.

I dislike the fact people think that AZN sources need any lipservice whatsoever by a gameing company.....(especially "properly portrayed") how retarded P.C. can you (by you I mean anyone) be?

Do you hear anyone complaining that the Druid, Cleric, or Warlock is not historically correct? Well, they are not and we don't care.........It's a game. I won't buy the AZN book because I don't want to, but I won't call fellow gamers bigots or ignorant if they do.

I'm gonna go hunt a make belive race of Orcs with my Cleric (and my God will love me for it) and slay them because their whole race is "evil". After that I'll take their stuff and get drunk in a bar. I'm just a ignorant american bigot haveing fun. It's great to be a hero.

You can start belittling me now. Tell me my choice of "fun" is wrong. It really hurts me when you do.

Of course this is my opinion I could be wrong.
#9
Steely_Dan
Nov 14, 2008 4:43:13
But whatever, I've completely given up on Wizards and this community to ever even attempt to properly portray or give respect to Asian cultures.

No sweat off our sac, we gave up on you and your Asianator attitude a long time ago, so do us all a favour, and, you know…
#10
merrikcale
Nov 14, 2008 8:48:19
While I do not want the Ki power source to be the catch all power for any class with an Asian/Oriental theme/title, I do have a few speculations:

-Monk = Ki Striker

-Sohei = Ki Defender

-Wu-Jen = Elemental Controller

like it. Wouldn't Samurai be a ki defender?
#11
khift
Nov 14, 2008 9:18:07
like it. Wouldn't Samurai be a ki defender?

My money's on Soulborn.

Please, please, be Soulborn.

Kincarnum for president 2010!
#12
Nemo_the_Lost
Nov 14, 2008 9:40:49
like it. Wouldn't Samurai be a ki defender?

Potentially? But I see where Dan is going with this. Most interpretations of the samurai don't involve ki "powers." Certainly, samurai believed in and made use of the concept of ki in their training and fighting, because they were Japanese warriors, but when it comes right down to their fighting style, they were in no way mystical.

On the other hand, the whole reason for the monk's indestructible hands and damage-resistant skin is their mastery of ki. The sohei takes the same sort of approach to weapon- and armor-based combat. They are spiritual footsoldiers.

And that might in fact be a worthwhile interpretation of the ki power source that I had not considered. It may very well be that ki should not be the Asian martial, but rather the Asian divine -- supporting religions that are not divinity-based, but rather philosophy-based, like Taoism and Buddhism.

This would make shugenja a clear choice for ki controller, and... I dunno, maybe omyouji, for ki leader? And it has nothing to do with them being Asian -- they're just representative of philosophical religious warriors, just like the paladin, cleric, avenger, and invoker are representative of divine religious warriors. It's not the fault of D&D that the Terran East went for philosophy and the Terran West went for gods. I am hard-pressed to come up with a broad western name for a philosophical cleric. We call them priests regardless.

Of course, this isn't the direction Wizards is going in, which is disappointing. But it definitely makes me feel a little better about the whole stupid thing.
#13
KoboldAvenger
Nov 14, 2008 10:05:06
And that might in fact be a worthwhile interpretation of the ki power source that I had not considered. It may very well be that ki should not be the Asian martial, but rather the Asian divine -- supporting religions that are not divinity-based, but rather philosophy-based, like Taoism and Buddhism.

Philosophies like Taoism and Buddhism have been depicted as philosophies in D&D before, as respectively the Sigilian factions of the Transcendent Order (Ciphers) and the Dustmen (though they're mixed with a death cult and little bit of Catholicism).

I know that whatever path they take, no one will ever be truly satisfied. Though I for one would like to see a lot more Chinese influences, as I want to see some of my heritage represented in game (as inaccurate as it may be) much like how some Scandinavian players have mentioned they want to see a little more of their heritage represented in game.

And I personally feel that it's easier to work with Chinese culture in many of the assumed context of a D&D game. China was a more open place that had more to do with rest of the world. And it's much easier to have a set in a place like China, working off killing things and taking their stuff as there have been people like that in China and they've even been depicted heroically in Chinese literature.
#14
Tharag_Bocc
Nov 14, 2008 10:06:17
Potentially? But I see where Dan is going with this. Most interpretations of the samurai don't involve ki "powers." Certainly, samurai believed in and made use of the concept of ki in their training and fighting, because they were Japanese warriors, but when it comes right down to their fighting style, they were in no way mystical.

On the other hand, the whole reason for the monk's indestructible hands and damage-resistant skin is their mastery of ki. The sohei takes the same sort of approach to weapon- and armor-based combat. They are spiritual footsoldiers.

Sorry but I've got to go with Samurai over Sohei for the same reason I go with ninja over Assassin/Shadowdancer. Sohei might be a more accurate description but I can't imagine that the average gamer (especially one new to the game) would have any idea what a Sohei is, but Samurai is instant name recognition for most people. Is it accurate to the historical concept, probably not, but it has a level truth from a philosophically. It seems to me a Samurai might attribute their prowess in battle to their mastery of Ki in the same way a Paladin would attribute their own prowess to divine inspiration. It's important to remember that the conceptual Samurai is as different from a Fighter as a Paladin is. Both could be Fighters in a more mundane setting, but in a fantasy one they have every right to be their own class.
#15
Steely_Dan
Nov 14, 2008 10:07:13
My money's on Soulborn.

Please, please, be Soulborn.

LOVE IT.
#16
Nemo_the_Lost
Nov 14, 2008 10:34:40
Sorry but I've got to go with Samurai over Sohei for the same reason I go with ninja over Assassin/Shadowdancer.

Sohei's got provenance in D&D going back to 1st Edition. I understand what you're saying, but it hasn't been an issue in the past.
#17
Steely_Dan
Nov 14, 2008 10:40:06
Sohei's got provenance in D&D going back to 1st Edition. I understand what you're saying, but it hasn't been an issue in the past.

Exactly, Sohei has been in the 1st and 3rd Ed OA.

As it is a Warrior-Monk (temple guardian type), and the Monk is practically confirmed as the Ki Striker, it would totally make sense for it to be the Ki Defender.

…Not that sense has anything to do with what will show up, but still.
#18
Tharag_Bocc
Nov 14, 2008 10:52:55
Sohei's got provenance in D&D going back to 1st Edition. I understand what you're saying, but it hasn't been an issue in the past.

So have Assassin and Shadowdancer, doesn't make them better choices than Ninja. Sohei is a fine name for a Prestige Class (multiclass only class or Paragon Path) but base classes should have general recognition outside the context of D&D or semi-obscure cultural archetypes. A class's name is for most readers their first chance to understand and paint a mental image of the class. If the average reader's response is "what the heck is that" than the name is probably not a good choice, especially if there is an alternative more broadly recognized name. The name Samurai simply has to much traction in the collective consciousness not to be used.
#19
Steely_Dan
Nov 14, 2008 11:19:13
So have Assassin and Shadowdancer, doesn't make them better choices than Ninja.

For you maybe, I would much prefer a class called Assassin (shadow striker) than Ninja.

And the Assassin has been a class in every edition of this game:

-1st Ed: base class in the PHB.

-2nd Ed: base class in the Scarlett Brotherhood accessory.

-3rd Ed: prestige class in the DMG.
#20
wizardmon
Nov 14, 2008 13:22:48 @Those who here and elsewhere support "historicly" accurate classes:
Dungoens & Dragons is a medieval fantasy-adventure game. As such, I don't want or expect anything to be shown in a D&D book that could or would or did happen in real life. That is one of my favorite things about 4e, is that the flavor has taken a turn for the fantastic.

I don't particularly care for history, but I love fantasy. In a world where "magic" is more than a religious concept, and gods and demons are actual beings which can and do effect the world, I don't really care if the "historical accuracy" of anything else in the game is kept.

In fact, it would be disrespectful to do anything BUT disassociate compelling fantasy concepts from their real world roots; people who's faith actually resemble those presented in a book might get offended if their religion is made to look petty by being in a game's instruction manual. However, if the thing that was included in the book was sufficiently separated from the person in question's faith's history, then no offense would need to be taken, because it would be truly a fictional fantasy.

Therefore, I would really like to see Hero, Kill Bill -esque abilities for the Ki class, because these are compelling fantasy archtypes. I would perfer that Elemental classes were not strictly Asian in theme, but so long as there was a strong enough separation between the Tao concepts and those presented within the classes, I would be OK.

@Incarnum Fans: I really doubt WotC will make a return to Incarnum. There are several fan-based Incarum conversions out there, and I recommend you research those!
#21
griffonheart
Nov 14, 2008 14:14:34 I sincerely hope that the idea of the Incarnate makes an appearance as a Ki class, I love the idea of him as the defender. Frankly I don't care if WotC wants to make every single Ki class asian themed as long as they make a real effort to have them fit properly. I like the idea of a Ki controller being like your typical wuxia spellcaster give them great telekinesis and the ability to bargin with spirits or something and I will be happy to see it. I expect that the elemental classes will end up conforming more to the Greek elements instead of the Asian ones since that (to me at least) seems to have been more the way WotC has gone in the past. I want to see some really fun elemental effects and can't wait to play a character who gets to lash out with pure and barely controlled fire and lightning looking all B.A. while he does it.

Good on WotC for putting these power sources out there and I am sure that they will do something cool with them, them haven't let me down yet.
#22
Nautilus
Nov 18, 2008 20:46:34 I wonder what the chances are of ki powers being called 'jutsus'.

It's highly likely that WotC will make a flashy, supernatural ki power source, and good on them. While 'ki' doesn't really mean a mystical energy that can be channeled into walking up trees or shooting fireballs, 'arcane' doesn't really mean magic either, but no one minds magical effects being attributed to the arcane power source. Both ki and arcane have popular-culture usages that differ from their traditional usages. D&D has always been more aligned with popular culture than tradition.

Here's a left-field choice for the ki controller: the friar. If such a class existed, it would de-emphasise accusations that ki is an 'Asian' power source, and be a natural stablemate of the monk.
#23
Steely_Dan
Nov 19, 2008 5:26:38
I wonder what the chances are of ki powers being called 'jutsus'.

Absolutely nil, as that is too culturally specific (Japan). I for one would like to see more influences from non-Japanese East Asian countries (go Nepal!) in any future Asian/Oriental endeavours D&D takes.
#24
wizardmon
Nov 20, 2008 17:36:35
Absolutely nil, as that is too culturally specific (Japan). I for one would like to see more influences from non-Japanese East Asian countries (go Nepal!) in any future Asian/Oriental endeavours D&D takes.

I feel that the nice English word "Technique" would fit just fine for the source. Not only does it fit the flavor, but it also means the same as the aforementioned Japanese word.
#25
Omni-Wyvernil
Nov 22, 2008 9:03:05
I sincerely hope that the idea of the Incarnate makes an appearance as a Ki class, I love the idea of him as the defender. Frankly I don't care if WotC wants to make every single Ki class asian themed as long as they make a real effort to have them fit properly. I like the idea of a Ki controller being like your typical wuxia spellcaster give them great telekinesis and the ability to bargin with spirits or something and I will be happy to see it. I expect that the elemental classes will end up conforming more to the Greek elements instead of the Asian ones since that (to me at least) seems to have been more the way WotC has gone in the past. I want to see some really fun elemental effects and can't wait to play a character who gets to lash out with pure and barely controlled fire and lightning looking all B.A. while he does it.

Good on WotC for putting these power sources out there and I am sure that they will do something cool with them, them haven't let me down yet.

As for the Elemental source, the tricky part is finding a way to set it apart so that it doesn't feel like the Arcane source with a different coat of paint (similar to using the flashy, fantastic effects to make Ki feel less like "Asian Martial").

Maybe the Elemental source will involve more summoning effects, or more focus on single elements than a mix (unlike the wizard).
#26
Luis_Carlos
Nov 23, 2008 8:21:23 Some ki class will be with western look. (I am thinking about Tome of Battle and Magic of Incarnum). Totemist perhaps will be a primal class.

Assasin class has to be a shadow striker.

Ninja must to be a ki striker (or controller).

Samurai can be a perfect leader..( with a controller power of fright enemies, like 3th ed version from complete warrior).

Sohei is a perfect ki defender.

Possible elemental classes are shi´ar (from al-Qadim), shugenja and wu jen. What is the shugenja role?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 wizardmon Nov 13, 2008 15:57:21	The designer for Martial Power, Rob Heinsoo, discusses the Ki power source briefly here. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4spot/20081112a Interview wrote:
#2 ceiling90 Nov 13, 2008 18:36:46	I'll agree with the possible idea that Elemental is "Asian" Arcane... As a lot of "magic" in Asian fantasy is based more on elements; not to say any thing that western magic didn't have some elemental ideas to it either. But I think it's simply more pronounced in Asian Mysticism. And the thing is that I agree what Ki is something more than martial, it's a little beyond, bordering on magic.
#3 KoboldAvenger Nov 13, 2008 20:38:39	Elements seems to be a pretty universal idea. Though the 4 elements is something mainly attributed to Aristotle, while the 5 elements is mainly attributed to Taoism. I've certainly seen a variety of non-culturally specific elemental mages through out different editions of D&D I've bothered with. Many of those classes are loosely based on very western ideas of elements. And I can think of another RPG where 4 Archangels were each tied to a particular element (Gabriel=Fire, Michael=Air and so on). And then there's the Arabian themed class the Sha'ir back from Al-Quadim which was a very elemental class as well with a lot of stuff involving Genies (even though I have no idea where the Dao actually came from, I've never heard of such them outside of D&D). I'm one that wants the Incarnate to be a Ki Class, though I'd say they could be controllers rather than leaders, even if the class from Magic of the Incarnum was sort of a cleric stand-in. That book had a lot of neat ideas, even if hardly anyone used Incarnum.
#4 merrikcale Nov 13, 2008 21:13:29	that would make sense for an "Oriental Adventures"
#5 Pyrate_Jib Nov 13, 2008 22:07:07	I bet we see the Psionic power book first (not what I want but I bet that is how it rolls out) in 2010.
#6 narukagami Nov 13, 2008 22:10:16	My 2 cents, elements in T(D)aoism and other "eastern philosophies" seem to be more of a philosophical concept and are fairly different from Aristotle's concept of physical building blocks. They're not entirely elements is the Western sense, really, they're more like labels applied to groupings of common traits. Ki being anything but "Asian Martial" is a losing battle, I've little doubt ignorance will beat out intelligence with these writers as long as it sells more books to the drooling masses. But whatever, I've completely given up on Wizards and this community to ever even attempt to properly portray or give respect to Asian cultures. Enjoy your bigoted stereotypes. God I'm getting crotchety....
#7 Steely_Dan Nov 14, 2008 3:08:08	While I do not want the Ki power source to be the catch all power for any class with an Asian/Oriental theme/title, I do have a few speculations: -Monk = Ki Striker -Sohei = Ki Defender -Wu-Jen = Elemental Controller
#8 styphathal Nov 14, 2008 4:05:08	My 2 cents, elements in T(D)aoism and other "eastern philosophies" seem to be more of a philosophical concept and are fairly different from Aristotle's concept of physical building blocks. They're not entirely elements is the Western sense, really, they're more like labels applied to groupings of common traits. Ki being anything but "Asian Martial" is a losing battle, I've little doubt ignorance will beat out intelligence with these writers as long as it sells more books to the drooling masses. But whatever, I've completely given up on Wizards and this community to ever even attempt to properly portray or give respect to Asian cultures. Enjoy your bigoted stereotypes. God I'm getting crotchety.... I for one hope they keep Power Rangers, Naurto, and Dragon Ball out of my game. I dislike the fact people think that AZN sources need any lipservice whatsoever by a gameing company.....(especially "properly portrayed") how retarded P.C. can you (by you I mean anyone) be? Do you hear anyone complaining that the Druid, Cleric, or Warlock is not historically correct? Well, they are not and we don't care.........It's a game. I won't buy the AZN book because I don't want to, but I won't call fellow gamers bigots or ignorant if they do. I'm gonna go hunt a make belive race of Orcs with my Cleric (and my God will love me for it) and slay them because their whole race is "evil". After that I'll take their stuff and get drunk in a bar. I'm just a ignorant american bigot haveing fun. It's great to be a hero. You can start belittling me now. Tell me my choice of "fun" is wrong. It really hurts me when you do. Of course this is my opinion I could be wrong.
#9 Steely_Dan Nov 14, 2008 4:43:13	But whatever, I've completely given up on Wizards and this community to ever even attempt to properly portray or give respect to Asian cultures. No sweat off our sac, we gave up on you and your Asianator attitude a long time ago, so do us all a favour, and, you know…
#10 merrikcale Nov 14, 2008 8:48:19	While I do not want the Ki power source to be the catch all power for any class with an Asian/Oriental theme/title, I do have a few speculations: -Monk = Ki Striker -Sohei = Ki Defender -Wu-Jen = Elemental Controller like it. Wouldn't Samurai be a ki defender?
#11 khift Nov 14, 2008 9:18:07	like it. Wouldn't Samurai be a ki defender? My money's on Soulborn. Please, please, be Soulborn. Kincarnum for president 2010!
#12 Nemo_the_Lost Nov 14, 2008 9:40:49	like it. Wouldn't Samurai be a ki defender? Potentially? But I see where Dan is going with this. Most interpretations of the samurai don't involve ki "powers." Certainly, samurai believed in and made use of the concept of ki in their training and fighting, because they were Japanese warriors, but when it comes right down to their fighting style, they were in no way mystical. On the other hand, the whole reason for the monk's indestructible hands and damage-resistant skin is their mastery of ki. The sohei takes the same sort of approach to weapon- and armor-based combat. They are spiritual footsoldiers. And that might in fact be a worthwhile interpretation of the ki power source that I had not considered. It may very well be that ki should not be the Asian martial, but rather the Asian divine -- supporting religions that are not divinity-based, but rather philosophy-based, like Taoism and Buddhism. This would make shugenja a clear choice for ki controller, and... I dunno, maybe omyouji, for ki leader? And it has nothing to do with them being Asian -- they're just representative of philosophical religious warriors, just like the paladin, cleric, avenger, and invoker are representative of divine religious warriors. It's not the fault of D&D that the Terran East went for philosophy and the Terran West went for gods. I am hard-pressed to come up with a broad western name for a philosophical cleric. We call them priests regardless. Of course, this isn't the direction Wizards is going in, which is disappointing. But it definitely makes me feel a little better about the whole stupid thing.
#13 KoboldAvenger Nov 14, 2008 10:05:06	And that might in fact be a worthwhile interpretation of the ki power source that I had not considered. It may very well be that ki should not be the Asian martial, but rather the Asian divine -- supporting religions that are not divinity-based, but rather philosophy-based, like Taoism and Buddhism. Philosophies like Taoism and Buddhism have been depicted as philosophies in D&D before, as respectively the Sigilian factions of the Transcendent Order (Ciphers) and the Dustmen (though they're mixed with a death cult and little bit of Catholicism). I know that whatever path they take, no one will ever be truly satisfied. Though I for one would like to see a lot more Chinese influences, as I want to see some of my heritage represented in game (as inaccurate as it may be) much like how some Scandinavian players have mentioned they want to see a little more of their heritage represented in game. And I personally feel that it's easier to work with Chinese culture in many of the assumed context of a D&D game. China was a more open place that had more to do with rest of the world. And it's much easier to have a set in a place like China, working off killing things and taking their stuff as there have been people like that in China and they've even been depicted heroically in Chinese literature.
#14 Tharag_Bocc Nov 14, 2008 10:06:17	Potentially? But I see where Dan is going with this. Most interpretations of the samurai don't involve ki "powers." Certainly, samurai believed in and made use of the concept of ki in their training and fighting, because they were Japanese warriors, but when it comes right down to their fighting style, they were in no way mystical. On the other hand, the whole reason for the monk's indestructible hands and damage-resistant skin is their mastery of ki. The sohei takes the same sort of approach to weapon- and armor-based combat. They are spiritual footsoldiers. Sorry but I've got to go with Samurai over Sohei for the same reason I go with ninja over Assassin/Shadowdancer. Sohei might be a more accurate description but I can't imagine that the average gamer (especially one new to the game) would have any idea what a Sohei is, but Samurai is instant name recognition for most people. Is it accurate to the historical concept, probably not, but it has a level truth from a philosophically. It seems to me a Samurai might attribute their prowess in battle to their mastery of Ki in the same way a Paladin would attribute their own prowess to divine inspiration. It's important to remember that the conceptual Samurai is as different from a Fighter as a Paladin is. Both could be Fighters in a more mundane setting, but in a fantasy one they have every right to be their own class.
#15 Steely_Dan Nov 14, 2008 10:07:13	My money's on Soulborn. Please, please, be Soulborn. LOVE IT.
#16 Nemo_the_Lost Nov 14, 2008 10:34:40	Sorry but I've got to go with Samurai over Sohei for the same reason I go with ninja over Assassin/Shadowdancer. Sohei's got provenance in D&D going back to 1st Edition. I understand what you're saying, but it hasn't been an issue in the past.
#17 Steely_Dan Nov 14, 2008 10:40:06	Sohei's got provenance in D&D going back to 1st Edition. I understand what you're saying, but it hasn't been an issue in the past. Exactly, Sohei has been in the 1st and 3rd Ed OA. As it is a Warrior-Monk (temple guardian type), and the Monk is practically confirmed as the Ki Striker, it would totally make sense for it to be the Ki Defender. …Not that sense has anything to do with what will show up, but still.
#18 Tharag_Bocc Nov 14, 2008 10:52:55	Sohei's got provenance in D&D going back to 1st Edition. I understand what you're saying, but it hasn't been an issue in the past. So have Assassin and Shadowdancer, doesn't make them better choices than Ninja. Sohei is a fine name for a Prestige Class (multiclass only class or Paragon Path) but base classes should have general recognition outside the context of D&D or semi-obscure cultural archetypes. A class's name is for most readers their first chance to understand and paint a mental image of the class. If the average reader's response is "what the heck is that" than the name is probably not a good choice, especially if there is an alternative more broadly recognized name. The name Samurai simply has to much traction in the collective consciousness not to be used.
#19 Steely_Dan Nov 14, 2008 11:19:13	So have Assassin and Shadowdancer, doesn't make them better choices than Ninja. For you maybe, I would much prefer a class called Assassin (shadow striker) than Ninja. And the Assassin has been a class in every edition of this game: -1st Ed: base class in the PHB. -2nd Ed: base class in the Scarlett Brotherhood accessory. -3rd Ed: prestige class in the DMG.
#20 wizardmon Nov 14, 2008 13:22:48	@Those who here and elsewhere support "historicly" accurate classes: Dungoens & Dragons is a medieval fantasy-adventure game. As such, I don't want or expect anything to be shown in a D&D book that could or would or did happen in real life. That is one of my favorite things about 4e, is that the flavor has taken a turn for the fantastic. I don't particularly care for history, but I love fantasy. In a world where "magic" is more than a religious concept, and gods and demons are actual beings which can and do effect the world, I don't really care if the "historical accuracy" of anything else in the game is kept. In fact, it would be disrespectful to do anything BUT disassociate compelling fantasy concepts from their real world roots; people who's faith actually resemble those presented in a book might get offended if their religion is made to look petty by being in a game's instruction manual. However, if the thing that was included in the book was sufficiently separated from the person in question's faith's history, then no offense would need to be taken, because it would be truly a fictional fantasy. Therefore, I would really like to see Hero, Kill Bill -esque abilities for the Ki class, because these are compelling fantasy archtypes. I would perfer that Elemental classes were not strictly Asian in theme, but so long as there was a strong enough separation between the Tao concepts and those presented within the classes, I would be OK. @Incarnum Fans: I really doubt WotC will make a return to Incarnum. There are several fan-based Incarum conversions out there, and I recommend you research those!
#21 griffonheart Nov 14, 2008 14:14:34	I sincerely hope that the idea of the Incarnate makes an appearance as a Ki class, I love the idea of him as the defender. Frankly I don't care if WotC wants to make every single Ki class asian themed as long as they make a real effort to have them fit properly. I like the idea of a Ki controller being like your typical wuxia spellcaster give them great telekinesis and the ability to bargin with spirits or something and I will be happy to see it. I expect that the elemental classes will end up conforming more to the Greek elements instead of the Asian ones since that (to me at least) seems to have been more the way WotC has gone in the past. I want to see some really fun elemental effects and can't wait to play a character who gets to lash out with pure and barely controlled fire and lightning looking all B.A. while he does it. Good on WotC for putting these power sources out there and I am sure that they will do something cool with them, them haven't let me down yet.
#22 Nautilus Nov 18, 2008 20:46:34	I wonder what the chances are of ki powers being called 'jutsus'. It's highly likely that WotC will make a flashy, supernatural ki power source, and good on them. While 'ki' doesn't really mean a mystical energy that can be channeled into walking up trees or shooting fireballs, 'arcane' doesn't really mean magic either, but no one minds magical effects being attributed to the arcane power source. Both ki and arcane have popular-culture usages that differ from their traditional usages. D&D has always been more aligned with popular culture than tradition. Here's a left-field choice for the ki controller: the friar. If such a class existed, it would de-emphasise accusations that ki is an 'Asian' power source, and be a natural stablemate of the monk.
#23 Steely_Dan Nov 19, 2008 5:26:38	I wonder what the chances are of ki powers being called 'jutsus'. Absolutely nil, as that is too culturally specific (Japan). I for one would like to see more influences from non-Japanese East Asian countries (go Nepal!) in any future Asian/Oriental endeavours D&D takes.
#24 wizardmon Nov 20, 2008 17:36:35	Absolutely nil, as that is too culturally specific (Japan). I for one would like to see more influences from non-Japanese East Asian countries (go Nepal!) in any future Asian/Oriental endeavours D&D takes. I feel that the nice English word "Technique" would fit just fine for the source. Not only does it fit the flavor, but it also means the same as the aforementioned Japanese word.
#25 Omni-Wyvernil Nov 22, 2008 9:03:05	I sincerely hope that the idea of the Incarnate makes an appearance as a Ki class, I love the idea of him as the defender. Frankly I don't care if WotC wants to make every single Ki class asian themed as long as they make a real effort to have them fit properly. I like the idea of a Ki controller being like your typical wuxia spellcaster give them great telekinesis and the ability to bargin with spirits or something and I will be happy to see it. I expect that the elemental classes will end up conforming more to the Greek elements instead of the Asian ones since that (to me at least) seems to have been more the way WotC has gone in the past. I want to see some really fun elemental effects and can't wait to play a character who gets to lash out with pure and barely controlled fire and lightning looking all B.A. while he does it. Good on WotC for putting these power sources out there and I am sure that they will do something cool with them, them haven't let me down yet. As for the Elemental source, the tricky part is finding a way to set it apart so that it doesn't feel like the Arcane source with a different coat of paint (similar to using the flashy, fantastic effects to make Ki feel less like "Asian Martial"). Maybe the Elemental source will involve more summoning effects, or more focus on single elements than a mix (unlike the wizard).
#26 Luis_Carlos Nov 23, 2008 8:21:23	Some ki class will be with western look. (I am thinking about Tome of Battle and Magic of Incarnum). Totemist perhaps will be a primal class. Assasin class has to be a shadow striker. Ninja must to be a ki striker (or controller). Samurai can be a perfect leader..( with a controller power of fright enemies, like 3th ed version from complete warrior). Sohei is a perfect ki defender. Possible elemental classes are shi´ar (from al-Qadim), shugenja and wu jen. What is the shugenja role?