"The monk ended up where it did because the ki power source proved untenable and psionics is the next best fit."
This means that Ki classes, as they were an Asian Ghetto anyways, are being incorporated into other Power sources, and Samurais are going the ways of Gladiators and Assassins, as later detailed in the article. What's really important is that this will change the make-up of PH3.
So, what does everybody think about how PH3 will be?
I'm suggesting 4 Psionic / 2 Shadow, and thus still splitting Shadow halfway along with Elemental in PH4; and filling in the gap-space with Hybrid Classes. Alternatively, they could release all of Psionic and nothing else, or all of Psionic and all of Shadow, or all of Psionic and all of Elemental, or some weird mixture. What are everybody's thoughts?
I could see Shadow either having 4 or 3 thus. Hmm...Hybrid Classes will take up a fair amount of room, but I dunno how much. Also, could maybe see stuff like the Gladiator articles in PHB instead as well?
I would not be surprised with a 4/4 or 5/3 scheme if only because it gives them two more "complete" power sources with enough classes to publish more "power books".
Of course, it is possible as many have said they are only having the 5 confirmed power sources and folding all the other classes into them. Elemental and arcane certainly seem to overlap somewhat, though I still think shadow could be a unique form.
Those are both very viable classes to fit to Elemental, and they don't seem to necessarily have anything to do with Primordials. In fact, Wu Jen, with all it's taboos, makes me think of the Githzerai who make their homes in the Elemental Chaos and yet have a rigid monastic structure; as does the Void Adept PG for the Shugenja from 3.5e, which had some of the more balance elements of the Githzerai's reason for being in the Chaos.
For instance, Elemental might be the next source to go. Between the Arcane and Primal sources, there isn't much of an unique niche left for the Elemental source to fall into. The prior two sources cover most of the elemental attack powers, as well as summoning and elemental transformation. What would be left for the Elemental source to do?
That leaves us with:
- Martial: Training the human(oid) potential beyond its upper limits.
- Divine: Power gained through pledging oneself to a deity.
- Arcane: Discovering arcane secrets through study, bargains, or inborn ability.
- Primal: Communing with the spirits of the natural world.
- Psionic: Unlocking the power of the mind through sheer will.
- Shadow: Harnessing the secrets of dark entities of the shadows.
Shadow seems unique enough to remain as a power source. There's at least three classes it could cover (Illusionist/Beguiler, Necromancer, Assassin/Ninja), which are somewhat archetypical.
I also can't really see Shadow being its own source. Same deal as Ki; there are a few classes that could be classified as Shadow, but Shadow in and of itself isn't broad enough to encompass several classes of different roles.
Thus, the PHB3 will either essentially be the "Psionics Handbook 4.0," or more classes from existing sources will be added. I hope it's the latter.
For Psionic classes, Monk is our Striker. The Psion will almost certainly be the Psionic controller, minus the Empath (which was a specialized Psion in 3.x). Empath will be the leader. The Psychic Warrior will most likely be the Defender. It would be really cool if the Soulknife showed up as a Paragon Path that any Psionic class could take (though it'd be pretty useless to the Psion...unless you want another controller like the Druid that can do both melee and ranged). I don't see the soulknife showing up as another Psionic striker, and to make it a defender would be way too reminiscent of the Swordmage.
Not sure about other classes from existing sources, but I doubt we'll see any more arcane classes since we already have 6 (Wizard, Warlock, Swordmage, Sorcerer, Bard, and Artificer). Conceptually, I feel like the Martial source is pretty much tapped out (unless WotC really wants to please everyone who wants a Martial controller, despite the fact that it doesn't make much sense). So perhaps two more Primal and two more Divine? Or if they want to equalize the numbers a bit more (which I don't condone if the concepts aren't there), they could go one Primal, one Divine, one Martial, and a fifth Psionic (either the Wilder, the Soulknife as its own class, or another class that was formerly lumped up into the Psion).
And that's if we assume that they stick with 8 classes per PHB.
Alternatively, they could throw us a curveball and make a basic class that mixes sources like the Mystic Theurge.
Or not.
EDIT (because I was ninja'd):
Shadow seems unique enough to remain as a power source. There's at least three classes it could cover (Illusionist/Beguiler, Necromancer, Assassin/Ninja), which are somewhat archetypical.
I disagree. The Wizard already has a very effective Illusionist build, and the Fey Beguiler is already a Gnome Racial PP. Plus Warlocks kind of do this too.
The Necromancer could easily be fit into either Arcane or Divine.
Assassin/Ninja, IMO, is a specialized Rogue. Could get some Dragon coverage to flesh it out, but I don't see this as being its own class.
Conceptually, I feel like the Martial source is pretty much tapped out (unless WotC really wants to please everyone who wants a Martial controller, despite the fact that it doesn't make much sense).
Maybe, but with Martial Power 2 announced as part of the 2010 release schedule there is definite fuel to contemplate that martial will indeed return with more classes in PHB3.
Plus, Ninja needs somewhere to move to, and they already made a statement that they've moved it: none of the other power sources created fit it, save Martial, where it would be called Rogue. No, only Samurai of the four "Ki" (or rather Asian) Power Sourced classes is getting class-scrapped in favour of a feat build a la Gladiator and Assassin. My theory is Ninjas are these "True Assassins" spoken of in the Assassins article, which also heavily emphasised Shadow.
Shadow will be decidedly easier. Shadowcasters, Illusionists, Beguilers, Necromancers, Ninjas, Shadowdancers, Blackgaurds, etc. Any mystical dark or deceptive class could potentially be Shadow. All you need is 4 classes, and you don't even need to fill all the roles (Martial has 2 strikers, a leader, and a defender).
Could Duskblade or Hexblade function as Shadow strikers? Also, is Dark pact warlock sort of Shadow (or did I miss something in the FRPG)?
Monk in Psionic is awesome, especially for Githzerai monks.
I agree with the Psion, Empath, Monk, Psychic Warrior model, although I think Nomads would be a cooler leader. Yay short range teleportation for allies and screwing up enemy positions!
Or they could just make Elocator a paragon path.
-Drillboss
Monk - Psionic Striker:
We know this one already.
Psion/Mentalist/Esper - Psionic Controller:
Key Stats: Constitution, Intelligence, Charisma
The basic psychic class. Will probably focus on two main builds: a psychokinetic/pyrokinetic (CON/INT) and a telepath (CON/CHA).
Empath - Psionic Leader:
Key Stats: Charisma, Wisdom, Dexterity
Not sure what powers the empath would have, but it may focus on channeling mental energy to others.
Soulblade - Psionic Defender
Key Stats: Intelligence, Strength, Dexterity
A fusion of the psychic warrior and the soulknife. Channels psychic energy into a mental blade, and utilizes mental disciplines to aid his combat prowess. May end up resembling a fantasy version of a Jedi.
Ninja - Shadow Striker
Key Stats: Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom
May combine elements of a planned "Ki Ninja" class with the "true assassin" described in the assassin article.
Necromancer - Shadow Controller
Key Stats: Intelligence, Wisdom, Strength
A shadow controller focused on summoning undead and "death spell" attacks.
Beguiler/Shadowcaster/Illusionist - Shadow Controller
Key Stats: Intelligence, Dexterity, Charisma
The sneaky, subtle mage focused on befuddling his enemies with the power of shadow.
Elementalist - Primal Striker or Controller
Key Stats: Constitution, Wisdom, Charisma
If they can't find any more elemental classes to fill out an elemental source, the Elementalist might get moved to Primal (which sort of fits since elementalists could be based on channeling elemental spirits rather than natural spirits). The elementalist may end up eating the Shugenja and/or Wu Jen and absorbing their capabilities.
Just throwing down a few concepts.
I hope they wouldn't do Shadow, Elemental, or any of those other half-baked ideas. Shadow is more of a theme, and doesn't leave enough room for a full range of classes; it'd be pretty contrived. As for Elemental, at this point, they can't do it, because it would inherently leave out Sorcerer, which is a HUGE discrepancy.
Let's see 4 psionic classes (maybe even 5!), hybrid rules, tons of races, and something new altogether.
As for Psionic classes, all I can really speculate to is the following:
Wilder- Leader
Ardent- Defender
Monk- Striker
Soul Knife- Second Striker
Psion- Controller
EDIT: Actually, I'm no psionic expert, but I'm pretty sure that's a pretty darn good looking list.
I'm hoping that all the psionic classes will be distinct, as the monk is. I don't want to see a "psion" class, with a "big tuff psion" and a "helpy good psion" added as after thoughts. Forget that!
I wouldn't at all be surprised if shadow was kept. I'm guessing elemental won't, and I am also thinking illusionist isn't going to be a class (wouldn't it be an arcane class anyway???) I think they'll probably come up with a surprising new source at some stage too, but who knows? I sure don't :P
I'm really liking the look of the new Monk, after all. Every new class they bring out seems to be more interesting and distinct than the ones before.
That idea is completely stupid, because I would never allow psionics in my game, but I still want monk, samurai, ninja...
GP
If true, that's too bad, since I've always considered psionics as optional rule system in previous editions. As a DM, I've never allowed psionics. I have always considered Ki, core to the game. If "ki" is being dumped, and psionics replacing Ki, then, I guess I'm done with 4e.
That idea is completely stupid, because I would never allow psionics in my game, but I still want monk, samurai, ninja...
So what exactly is it you don't like about Psionics? I can somewhat understand disliking it in previous editions, because it was a whole new system with new mechanics bolted on to the core system. In fact, 3e kind of went overboard with that sort of thing.
But in 4e? There is absolutely nothing in the Monk playtest that can't be re-fluffed for a houseruled Ki power source. Actually, you don't even need to change the fluff at all, just do a search-and-replace swapping "psionic" for "ki". The whole look and feel of the class is perfectly consistent with any conceptualization of "ki" that I can think of.
If true, that's too bad, since I've always considered psionics as optional rule system in previous editions.
But it isn't a rule system. Its a few classes tied together thematically.
They havent' said (at least in the article mentioned), that Ki is dead or gone, just that Monks aren't Ki.
Can I just point out that they haven't stated that "Ki is dead" just that the Monks being Ki powered didn't fit when compared to a Psionic Monk.
They havent' said (at least in the article mentioned), that Ki is dead or gone, just that Monks aren't Ki.
Uhhh, you have to stretch what they're saying there reeeaaally far to come up with "Ki is still alive and kicking".
They don't just say the Monk isn't Ki, they also go on to say that the shugenja, the wu jen, the ninja, and the samurai aren't Ki either. What's left?
Incarnum, Soul Knife and other Soul powered classes could still be on the cards.
Monks weren't justifiable as being Ki powered, that's it.
Can I just point out that they haven't stated that "Ki is dead" just that the Monks being Ki powered didn't fit when compared to a Psionic Monk.
They havent' said (at least in the article mentioned), that Ki is dead or gone, just that Monks aren't Ki.
Untenable = dead
You would have to make difference between FIRE and ELEMENTAL FIRE. Or any of the other elements
One can light a candle, cast burning hands, summon a fireball all with the FIRE keyword.
But bending the Prims or even the Efreeti and controlling the element of fire speaks of more of a worldly/planer power source.
I could see it as a "HYBRID" power source that one would specialize in and gain a token benefit at Heroic, small benefit at Paragon, and then benefit at Epic.
I guess I always looked at Elemental as something like Elder Evil.
Untenable = dead
No, it means undefendable, unjustifiable.
Ki power wasn't suitable. That's all it says.
Thinking a manifestation to pierce the heavens. Even in a grave, I can think on.
And if I can break through, it's my victory!
Who the hell do you think I am?
I'm Psionics. Not my bro, Ki.
I am myself! Psionics the Manifester!
Certain kill!
GIGA... MIND... CRUSHER!
Can I just point out that they haven't stated that "Ki is dead" just that the Monks being Ki powered didn't fit when compared to a Psionic Monk.
They havent' said (at least in the article mentioned), that Ki is dead or gone, just that Monks aren't Ki.
They said at this stage they can't work out how to have Ki as a power source which is why they moved the Monk. They did say if they ever come up with a great concept for Ki they'll use it.
However if they couldn't work out how to make Ki interesting in time for the Monk class, I don't see them ever working it out in 4th ed.
Anyway...I won't be sorry to see it go if this turns out to be the case...I was never fond of the idea of having an ethno-source.
Besides the idea of Ki/Chakra/Anima what have you is thematically similar enough to psionics to meld them into one universal idea.
No, it means undefendable, unjustifiable.
Ki power wasn't suitable. That's all it says.
Now you're being (even more) facetious. If Ki wasn't suitable for the Monk, where are they going to find a use for it?
That's a rhetorical question, BTW. :P
Ki is dead. It is no longer here. However, on my name, within my mechanics, it continues to live on!
Thinking a manifestation to pierce the heavens. Even in a grave, I can think on.
And if I can break through, it's my victory!
Who the hell do you think I am?
I'm Psionics. Not my bro, Ki.
I am myself! Psionics the Manifester!
Certain kill!
GIGA... MIND... CRUSHER!
You...
you killed your Bro?
(EDIT: I have GOT to stop watching this show. I bought the glasses at ACEN.)
it says nothing about what's happening to Ki power source or any classes.
There are a lot more questions that needed to be answered.
They've never stated Samurai and Ninja as previously promised classes, they're addressing those archetypes and saying how Ki doesn't fit them.
There's nothing that says Ki won't be used for other classes, it just won't be used for the Monk and other Asian classes (of which Wu-Jen and Shugenja particularly fit other power sources better).
It would be nice to know what current plans there are for the PHB3, people were expecting at least Ki and Psionics, now we only know about Psionics.
We could still see Ki classes of a different kind, the subject of Ki and what it can represent has been discussed on this forum. All we know about it is that it represents the power of the soul. Given that description, Monk doesn't fit Ki and Psionics is the next best fit (but only because of some powers which don't fit martial).
They could still do Ki and associated classes. They have not said Ki is dead, just why certain archetypes didn't fit.
DICTIONARY
Untenable
adjective
(esp. of a point of view) not able to be maintained or defended against attack or objection: this argument is clearly untenable.
DERIVATIVES
untenability noun
unteably adverb
THESAURUS
these untenable explanations are not helping your case
INDEFENSIBLE, insupportable, unsustainable, unjustified, unjustifiable, flimsly, weak, shaky.
-Oxford American Dictionary
Sounds pretty DEAD to me.
You can still do the elemental power source.
You would have to make difference between FIRE and ELEMENTAL FIRE. Or any of the other elements
One can light a candle, cast burning hands, summon a fireball all with the FIRE keyword.
But bending the Prims or even the Efreeti and controlling the element of fire speaks of more of a worldly/planer power source.
Like a class that's essentially nothing but a pyrokineticist? Fairly limited in scope if you ask me. I can see a class that can go multiple paths with the elements, but then again, the Wizard/Sorcerer/Swordsage already do that too.
No, it really doesn't. It only says Ki didn't suit Monks.
it says nothing about what's happening to Ki power source or any classes.
There are a lot more questions that needed to be answered.
They've never stated Samurai and Ninja as previously promised classes, they're addressing those archetypes and saying how Ki doesn't fit them.
There's nothing that says Ki won't be used for other classes, it just won't be used for the Monk and other Asian classes (of which Wu-Jen and Shugenja particularly fit other power sources better).
It would be nice to know what current plans there are for the PHB3, people were expecting at least Ki and Psionics, now we only know about Psionics.
We could still see Ki classes of a different kind, the subject of Ki and what it can represent has been discussed on this forum. All we know about it is that it represents the power of the soul. Given that description, Monk doesn't fit Ki and Psionics is the next best fit (but only because of some powers which don't fit martial).
They could still do Ki and associated classes. They have not said Ki is dead, just why certain archetypes didn't fit.
If I were one of the designers, it would be people like you that would drive me insane.
Does WotC really have to spell everything out in big, bold letters EVERY time they do ANYTHING?
The article is pretty clear, it's your comprehension that needs some work.
"the ki power source proved untenable" - DesDev
DICTIONARY
Untenable
adjective
(esp. of a point of view) not able to be maintained or defended against attack or objection: this argument is clearly untenable.
DERIVATIVES
untenability noun
unteably adverb
THESAURUS
these untenable explanations are not helping your case
INDEFENSIBLE, insupportable, unsustainable, unjustified, unjustifiable, flimsly, weak, shaky.
-Oxford American Dictionary
Sounds pretty DEAD to me.
Its true. According to any tenable interpretation of the english language, the statement that the "Ki power source proved untenable" is a pretty clear indication that the Ki power source is GONE. And thank god. Because really, I'm not all about my D&D having cognitive cultural ghettos. I think the move for monk from Ki to psionic, and the removal of the ki power source, is probably one of the best things I have seen to date. 4e continues to not disappoint. Best development team ever.
That being said, with the much heavier focus on psionic classes in the PHB 3, I think its becoming more and more clear that the 3rd setting is going to be Dark Sun. :D Hell, without the need to include a Ki power source, that 3rd power source can now be elemental.
"The monk ended up where it did because the ki power source proved untenable and psionics is the next best fit."
Untenable for the monk; I don't necessarily read that as meaning they're declaring the Ki power source unworkable at all.
You're probably right, but I think WotC will keep their options open.
"the ki power source proved untenable" - DesDev
DICTIONARY
Untenable
adjective
(esp. of a point of view) not able to be maintained or defended against attack or objection: this argument is clearly untenable.
DERIVATIVES
untenability noun
unteably adverb
THESAURUS
these untenable explanations are not helping your case
INDEFENSIBLE, insupportable, unsustainable, unjustified, unjustifiable, flimsly, weak, shaky.
-Oxford American Dictionary
Sounds pretty DEAD to me.
Maybe you should look up the word dead.
If you read the article, and the full paragraph, and the full article again, you'll see they are refering to the Monk, its powers and how those related to the Power source.
The Ki power source was unjustifiable as the power source for Monks, but the Psionic power source was.
That's it, it then dismisses 4 other supposed classes as being suitable for Ki or better suited to appear in some other form.
None of this says anything about Ki or any classes related to it. Or that Ki is being dumped.
It does sound like Ki is being dumped completely, which IMO is a mistake, but it doesn't say its dead as a power source.
I've stated this on the relevant response topic for the article, but it would be nice to hear what's happening to Ki as it does sound like its being abandoned.
However, we could see another class that forms the centre of Ki power, but they won't be Samurai's Monks, Ninjas, Wu-Jen or Shugenja's.
Psionics is such a cleaner way of doing it.
Now they just need to get rid of Elemental; let's face it, thats just an extension of Arcane in disguise.
It feels weird that the monk is going to be a Psionic class. I thought monks were all about enlightenment and martial arts, not throwing refrigerators with your mind. Sine when was the Buddha a psychic?
Since when was Buddha a martial artist?
They've also implied that psionics will be different to what you expect, hence Monk fitting psionics more than Ki.
blablablablablabla
Right, that's it. I'm done feeding the troll.
Instead of looking at the Monk and saying "this is Ki" and attempting to disperse those elements amongst the other Ki classes, it'd have been smarter to define Ki so that it incorporates the Monk's niche without being limited to it. Sure, the Monk is fast, flurries his blows, and fights unarmed, but would all Ki classes have to use those elements? Of course not! Not all arcane classes use spellbooks and not all divine classes are healers or turn undead, so why should ki by any different?
IMO, Ki is best defined as internal power gained by achieving the balance of mind, body and soul in one person. Yes, this is an Asian concept, but given the widespread popularity of Japanese animation and comics amongst WotC's target audience, it is by no means exclusively Asian anymore. Maybe it is just where I live, but my bookstore keeps its shelves of Manga right next to its shelf of D&D and other RPG stuff. Today's kids understand this concept, at least superficially.
As far as classes go, you'd have the obligatory Monk and Ninja (the mystical variety, since the traditional non-mystical variety is well-represented by the Rogue), but what else could fit into the Ki box?
The Crusader (aka the Kensei or Swordsaint or "Jedi"), who uses Ki through his weapons in a manner not-unlike the Book of Nine Swords' classes. Fills the desire some have for the 'mystical samurai' while using a distinctly non-Asian name. Ki Defender.
The Sage, whose understanding of balance is so great that she can upset the balance of the world around her in powerful ways. Translate that into cool attack powers and you have a Ki Controller.
That's four Ki concepts already and there's still room for a Ki leader.
Despite what I said, I don't think the designers are stupid. They've made a cool game that I like and I applaud them for it. On this, though, it just feels like they got hung up on the idea that "MONK = KI" and couldn't think their way past it in time for PH3... and punted.
* - I base my statement upon this excerpt: "As we worked on concepts for the monk, we found that the ki power source grew thinner and thinner. The monk's central, mechanical conceit, full disciplines (more on those later), didn't lend itself well as the umbrella mechanic for a power source. It functions better for a class that likes to move around in interesting ways, but that doesn't necessarily point to an entire source. Instead, it points to the striker role. That's not a good leg for an entire power source to stand on."
Why would the "full disciplines" and how they work need to be the "umbrella" for ki? This is back asswards thinking, IMO.
Since when was Buddha a martial artist?
Since when was Buddha a D&D character?
"I wouldn't hold your breath on it, but I never say never."
http://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/1760423007
Since when was Buddha a D&D character?
About three weeks ago.
:D
For what it's worth, Mike Mearls, when asked about this (is Ki dead) via twitter said:
"I wouldn't hold your breath on it, but I never say never."
http://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/1760423007
I accept this.
PH1: Arcane/Divine/Martial: 2/2/4
PH2: Arcane/Divine/Primal: 2/2/4
My prediction:
PH3: Martial/Primal/Psionic: 2/2/4
or
PH3: Divine/Martial/Primal/Psionic: 1/1/2/4
I'm saying Martial because there has yet to be a Martial Controller.
I'm saying Primal because of the Wilden.
I'm saying Psionic because of the Monk.
The chart based on PHs only (I'm not including the Player's Guides):
Arcane: Controller/Defender/Leader/Striker: 1/0/1/2
Divine: Controller/Defender/Leader/Striker: 1/1/1/1
Martial: Controller/Defender/Leader/Striker: 0/1/1/2
Primal: Controller/Defender/Leader/Striker: 1/1/1/1
Please feel free to disagree.
I'm saying Martial because there has yet to be a Martial Controller.
I don't believe there will be one, myself. I've never seen a concept for them that works.
This is more of a wishlist of what I want to see in PHB3 than a guess list:
4 Psionics classes, 1 for each role.
1 Primal Striker, not because we don't have enough strikers, but because I think there is design space for a stealthy primal striker like a hunter focusing on heavy thrown weapons like javelins and axes (tomahawks) and a few daily polymorph powers.
1 Primal Leader, because there is design space for a front line primal leader.
1 Martial Controller, while I don't know how this would be different than a monk..
1 Martial Defender, again, there is design space here for a light armored martial defender who is less bent on striking than the fighter, but leaning toward controller or leader depending on power choices.
The addition of 2 Primal and Martial classes would also generate more material for Primal Power and MP2, not that I have any idea what the release schedule is like.
The big question is: what is the second source? Shadow would have necromancers and likely some version of illusionists (or shadow/shade masters). Elementals would likely have wu-jen and other related elementalists (geomancers, pyromancers, etc).
Which is more desirable? Probably shadow. So it'll likely be elemental to save the next big source for PHB4 so people'll buy that.
So we'll have monks and psions in the one book. That's heavy.
The big question is: what is the second source? Shadow would have necromancers and likely some version of illusionists (or shadow/shade masters). Elementals would likely have wu-jen and other related elementalists (geomancers, pyromancers, etc).
Which is more desirable? Probably shadow. So it'll likely be elemental to save the next big source for PHB4 so people'll buy that.
Shadow would possibly also give us ninjas.
The list I would like:
Monk - Psionic Striker
Empath\Telepath - Psionic Leader
Egoist (I hate this name but can't think of a better one) - Psionic Controller
Soulblade - Psionic Defender (subsumes psionic warrior abilities)
Ninja - Shadow Striker
Shadowcaster - Shadow Striker
Illusionist - Shadow Controller
Necromancer - Shadow Leader
I do not know why, but I associate illusions with shadow more than arcane. And I really liked the concept behind the ToM shadowcaster even if I did not like the mechanics.
but where the heck do you guys the term 'ki' came from?
Daoism.
Chi = Ki = Ch'i = Qi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%27i
The 'monk' is traditionally a Buddhist title (Shaolin Monastery = Buddhist)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaolin_Monastery
having said that though...
Daoism and Buddhism are so intertwined in Chinese / Japanese (Korean?) culture, I still think it's stupid you guys think it's appropriate for Monks to be more about psionics than about Ki.
With this new information, here's some ideas for future classes.
I like your predictions. Allow me to refine them a bit.
Monk - Psionic Striker:
We know this one already.
Psion - Psionic Controller:
Key Stats: Constitution, Intelligence, Charisma
The basic psychic class. Will probably focus on two main builds: a psychokinetic/pyrokinetic (CON/INT) and a telepath (CON/CHA).
Empath - Psionic Leader:
Key Stats: Charisma, Wisdom, Dexterity
This class would focus more on empathy (as opposed to telepathy) to enhance and heal his allies, with a splash of psychoportation to maneuver himself/allies and reposition his enemies.
Soulblade - Psionic Defender
Key Stats: Intelligence, Strength, Dexterity
A fusion of the psychic warrior and the soulknife. Channels psychic energy into a mental blade, and utilizes mental disciplines to aid his combat prowess. May end up resembling a fantasy version of a Jedi.
Ninja - Shadow Striker
Key Stats: Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom
May combine elements of a planned "Ki Ninja" class with the "true assassin" described in the assassin article.
Necromancer - Shadow Controller
Key Stats: Intelligence, Wisdom, Strength
A shadow controller focused on summoning undead and "death spell" attacks. Cold, poison, and necrotic attacks are his specialty.
Beguiler - Shadow Leader
Key Stats: Intelligence, Dexterity, Charisma
The sneaky, subtle mage focused on befuddling his enemies with the power of shadow. This has the dual purpose of hindering his enemies and/or improving his allies capabilities. Some "misdirection of the senses" could provide some healing.
Elementalist - Primal Controller
Key Stats: Constitution, Wisdom, Charisma
If they can't find any more elemental classes to fill out an elemental source, the Elementalist might get moved to Primal (which sort of fits since elementalists could be based on channeling elemental spirits rather than natural spirits). The elementalist may end up eating the Shugenja and/or Wu Jen and absorbing their capabilities.
Beguiler - Shadow Leader
Key Stats: Intelligence, Dexterity, Charisma
The sneaky, subtle mage focused on befuddling his enemies with the power of shadow. This has the dual purpose of hindering his enemies and/or improving his allies capabilities. Some "misdirection of the senses" could provide some healing.
Sounds good, but I would put the Charisma as the primary stat and Intelligence as the secondary. Both stats are appropriate, but it comes down to a matter of persuasion to me; you use intelligence to make an illusion realistic, but it is your ability to adapt and convince your foe to be misdirected which makes illusion a viable option in combat (as opposed to a ritually created, placed illusion).
Elementalist - Primal Controller
Key Stats: Constitution, Wisdom, Charisma
If they can't find any more elemental classes to fill out an elemental source, the Elementalist might get moved to Primal (which sort of fits since elementalists could be based on channeling elemental spirits rather than natural spirits). The elementalist may end up eating the Shugenja and/or Wu Jen and absorbing their capabilities.
I just don't see this. The primal power source deals with primal spirits, but nothing in the fluff so far gives any indication of elemental spirits. And in a way that goes against the point of primal back story; the primal spirits forced out the creatures from the elemental chaos and the astral sea to create a demilitarized zone.
I believe the elemental power source is still viable and should not be shoehorned or killed off so readily. Then again I think that with the old incarnum classes, and a few other concepts, the ki power source still has traction just not for monks.
And they can still add more power sources if they come up with good ideas, Incarnium is still floating around there.
Really it seems just as "What would they possibly do with it" as Ki if not more so.
At least Ki had the "Azn Martial!" going for it. Elemental doesn't even have that.
I forsee a return of the Psionic Warrior in some form; given some new snappy name like Warsage (or hopefully something better sounding) and marketed towards all those Githyanki, Jedi, Sohei and Samurai fans.
I'm not sure about Soulknife; beyond having a energy blade coming out of their hand, they're not much different from Psionic Warriors. Maybe Psionic energy blades and bows could be something done with feats for Monks, Psionic Warriors and other classes.
And I'm still waiting for a class that has a dynamic aura feature.
Expect Githyanki and Githzerai - the artwork in the monk playtest hint at these races.
I expect to see 4 Psionic, 2 Primal (as they have the WIlden in the book) and 2 Martial as Martial Power II is on the way and it has been a while since we saw new martial stuff).
I feel like it represents the last unrepresented aspect of the game, which is the primordials. We know that the gods and the primordials fought before, and that the primal powers of the world came in and slapped them both, but the divine powers won.
There are still free primordials, at least from what I recall from the "Mual-Tar" article in dragon magazine, so it would make sense that players could draw from this aspect of the world as well. Also, as far as I'm concerned, the primordials are not evil, just beings of chaos, which is why they are normally considered dangerous. They're just unpredictable and fickle.
I mean, just because players use arcane to create energy does not mean that players should not be able to draw from the primordial forces in the world, transforming into flaming archons, controlling wild uncontrollable forces, etc. I'm still very much hoping the figure out some way to make it work. It's like the overlap between avenger/rogue and paladin/fighter and barbarian/ranger. They do the same things, but use different means to accomplish their goals. It's all about the path they chose in life.
I hope that elemental is not gone, myself.
I feel like it represents the last unrepresented aspect of the game, which is the primordials. We know that the gods and the primordials fought before, and that the primal powers of the world came in and slapped them both, but the divine powers won.
Yeah, I'm really hoping they:
A) keep Elemental.
B) replace Ki with some Far Realm-type power source.
Ki is dead. It is no longer here. However, on my name, within my mechanics, it continues to live on!
Thinking a manifestation to pierce the heavens. Even in a grave, I can think on.
And if I can break through, it's my victory!
Who the hell do you think I am?
I'm Psionics. Not my bro, Ki.
I am myself! Psionics the Manifester!
Certain kill!
GIGA... MIND... CRUSHER!
/thread
Since when was the Buddha a psychic?
Well, according to Buddhist Mythology, the Buddha possessed several psychic/miraculous powers. It might not come up often, since the Buddha frowned on using magic/miracles as "flashy advertising" so to say.
In fact, I found a page comparing the Buddha to the Fantastic Four with a simple google search.
Any given power source is only going to have 4 PHB classes total. Other classes will be released in setting Player's Guides, just like the Swordmage and Artificer. If the PH3 is anything, it will be 4 psi, 4 shadow...or 4 psi, 2 shadow...along with hybrid rules. Heck, maybe it'll be 2 psi, 2 shadow...just so they can pump out one or two more PHBs. The power source "well" is otherwise dry though after that.
maybe they will just go and say screw it and combine elemental and shadow and call the combo planar power source
They didn't can Ki, they moved Monk to Psionic. It's entirely possible that Ki is still around.
In the accompanying 'Design and Develpment' article, they said the reason that they moved monk to psionic is because they found the ki power source 'too thin'.
I presume that means it had to little to differentiate it from other power sources and either way, it sounds like ki is gone for good.
I for one am happy WotC wizened up before they went and did something stupid.
Why does nobody think of Sha'ir when they mention Elemental?
I did in my post or at least a hint of it.
Like a class that's essentially nothing but a pyrokineticist? Fairly limited in scope if you ask me. I can see a class that can go multiple paths with the elements, but then again, the Wizard/Sorcerer/Swordsage already do that too.
Might want to read my post again.. this time more slowly.
I also stated you would could to this with Earth, Air, and Water as well and the 5th if you wanted to as well. I just use the fire as an example.
Your W/S/SS example is using fire keyword not the element keyword. That is where the difference has to come in or it is just already done.
I gave a little bit of a hint in my post.
I can't wait to hear about them when they come out, though.
Also, I always think of sub-power sources.
Martial
Martial (Agility)
Martial (Leadership)
Divine
Divine (Invocation)
Arcane
Arcane (Pact)
Arcane (Instrumental)
Arcane (Artificial)
Primal
Primal (Spirit)
Primal (Nature)
Psionic
Psionic (Ki)?
Martial (Agility)
Martial (Leadership)
Divine
Divine (Invocation)
Arcane
Arcane (Pact)
Arcane (Instrumental)
Arcane (Artificial)
Primal
Primal (Spirit)
Primal (Nature)
Psionic
Psionic (Ki)?
That being said, here's what I'd like to see:
Assassin- Shadow Striker: A more culturally neutral name that will capture the archetype of the stealthy supernatural killer. Mystical ninja would be able to be made by this class, as would a variety of other concepts.
Beguiler-Shadow Controller:A class filled with illusions and deceptive magic that would control the battlefield by creating realistic illusions, changing appearances to turn enemies against one another, and engaging in other sorts of magical trickery. Would eat the Beguiler and the Shadowcaster from 3.5.
Necromancer-Shadow Controller:A class that would have undead minions, and a wide variety of cold, poison and necrotic spells. Would control through the placement of a permanent minion much like the Ranger's Beast (albeit not so reliant on the necro) and through temporarily summoned minions and zones of necrotic energy. Might have a leader sub-role through distributing drained life energy to allies.
Hexblade-Shadow Defender: A strikery defender who uses curses that give foes attack penalties that intensify if they attack one of the hexblade's allies. (for example it might give a -2 to all attacks until the curse ends, which increases to -3 when it attacks an ally of the hexblade). Would be an expert at manipulating probability for attack and defense.
Telepath-Psionic Controller:A class that would manipulate the battlefield through the use of mental control. Might have a reverse version of commander's strike (an enemy makes a melee attack against an ally within it's reach) as one of it's at wills.
Empath-Psionic Leader:A class that would support it's companions through morale effects. Would most likely provide large amounts of saving throw bonuses, temporary HP, and attack bonuses.
Kineticist-Psionic Striker: Would be a psionic character who uses the power of their mind to tear apart enemies, set foes on fire, throw objects etc. Essentially the more overt and direct Psion. Might eat the wilder and have the ability to go into a risky "wild surge" state. Would evoke images of Carrie and similarly powerful and perhaps even wild psionicists.
Monk-Psionic Striker:Confirmed
Elemental isn't going to survive. Elementally oriented damage...Arcane does that. Transumutation (or conjuration, summoning, or polymorph?) of any kind...arcane (and divine?) does that. So...what's going to separate Elemental from the rest? Nothing that I can see.
Any given power source is only going to have 4 PHB classes total. Other classes will be released in setting Player's Guides, just like the Swordmage and Artificer. If the PH3 is anything, it will be 4 psi, 4 shadow...or 4 psi, 2 shadow...along with hybrid rules. Heck, maybe it'll be 2 psi, 2 shadow...just so they can pump out one or two more PHBs. The power source "well" is otherwise dry though after that.
I would expect that elemental would be somewhere between Arcane and Primal in its behavior.
Have you seen show "Avatar: The Last Air-Bender?" It shows a lot of very physical elementalism that isn't covered in Arcane or Primal effects. Things like surfing on a small hill that you brought forth from the ground and using it to charge someone with a spear of ice, or taking an enemy's elemental-flavored area attack and changing it and redirecting it back at them or turning it into a weapon of some sort.
Honestly, I want all the psionic classes to be completely different from what they were...and finally ACTUALLY be psionically flavored...instead of all that stupid crystals and ectoplasm crap slopped on top of poorly refluffed arcane classes.
Psions NEVER make things go boom, and they never should have. No teleportation, no energy balls, no shapeshifting or that junk.
Psionics is the power of the mind...affecting the MINDS of others. Throw in some push, pull, slide, and shift powers to give back the psychokinesis flavor. If anything, Psionics should be the "far realm" and "dream plane" power source.
PHB3 - Psionic 4 / Elemental 2 / Shadow 2
PHB4 - Elemental 2 / Shadow 2 / OTHER 4
I expect them to hold with the 4/2/2 format. Reason: They've done it twice. They could easily have gone with a different format in PHB2, but they didn't. They're running 4 base classes for each source, 8 classes per PHB, and 3 sources per PHB. This gives a good diversity of play styles and elements.
I expect they will drop a new 8th power source. I expect they will have a 9th, 10th, & 11th power source ready to 4/2/2 by 2012 for PHB 5. Reason: You don't stop milking the cash cow unless you're an imbecile. You milk it dry, and then give a few more tugs, just to be sure. In everything where they discussed future power sources, they referred to them as "The First Power Sources," or "The First Eight Power Sources." They've implied, very strongly, from the beginning that Martial, Divine, Arcane, Primal, Elemental, Shadow, Psionic, and (the defunct) Ki are not the only power sources they're going to do. They were just the ones ALREADY ON THE SLATE when PHB 1 came out.
So, I expect we will see 8 full classes in PHB 3 and PHB 4, without repeating power sources past 4 classes.
After all, there's no good reason that PHB 3 can't be as long as PHB 1. Since we don't need to rehash combat rules, maybe we can use some of that page count for Hybrid classes, Eh?
Also, I really can't see hybrid classes taking more than 1 page per class, and AT MOST 3 pages of general info.
So, if they cut material to make room for Hybrid Classes in PHB 3, I'll be annoyed.
If soulknives die, wilders better go with them. Besides, Sorcerers already ate wild mages AND wilders...since wilders were never anything more than psionic wild mages anyway.
Honestly, I want all the psionic classes to be completely different from what they were...and finally ACTUALLY be psionically flavored...instead of all that stupid crystals and ectoplasm crap slopped on top of poorly refluffed arcane classes.
Psions NEVER make things go boom, and they never should have. No teleportation, no energy balls, no shapeshifting or that junk.
Psionics is the power of the mind...affecting the MINDS of others. Throw in some push, pull, slide, and shift powers to give back the psychokinesis flavor. If anything, Psionics should be the "far realm" and "dream plane" power source.
I don't think you really understand psionics and it's history in sci-fi/fantasy beyond D&D if you really believe that. Hell, even in D&D for that matter.
Can I just point out that they haven't stated that "Ki is dead" just that the Monks being Ki powered didn't fit when compared to a Psionic Monk.
If the Monk isn't Ki, then nothing could possibly be Ki. The Monk is Ki, at its most basic.
It's like if they had the Primal Power Source, and they made the Druid a Divine class. Purely and utterly ridiculous.
I can't see any point to elemental - its just a more specific Arcane.
Not a fan of Shadow then?
At their basics, nearly all magical settings have elemental attacks wielded by nearly all magic-users. And Arcane is already supposed to be the default magic category. And Primal is supposed to be the default nature category.
In other words, if you have a fantasy setting with magic, you're ALWAYS going to have elemental spells as part of the basic magic system. Much less so with necromancy.
It just seems like Elemental is just Arcane + Primal or the best part of Arcane.
Psions NEVER make things go boom, and they never should have. No teleportation, no energy balls, no shapeshifting or that junk.
Psionics is the power of the mind...affecting the MINDS of others. Throw in some push, pull, slide, and shift powers to give back the psychokinesis flavor. If anything, Psionics should be the "far realm" and "dream plane" power source.
I completely agree, except I think crystals could stay. Psionics needs to stay far, far away from being copies of arcane classes. Give me telepathy, telekinesis, and maybe a few illusions if you want to get wacky. Casting 'psionic' fireball should be right out. An Empath could share or absorb the pain of allies, though.
I completely agree, except I think crystals could stay. Psionics needs to stay far, far away from being copies of arcane classes. Give me telepathy, telekinesis, and maybe a few illusions if you want to get wacky. Casting 'psionic' fireball should be right out. An Empath could share or absorb the pain of allies, though.
Pyrokinesis has long been associated with Psionics, not just in D&D. It'll probably be back in 4e.
I just want to point out... not that this means anything, because I don't think D&D needs to justify the fluff; as it's a fantasy world they're creating...
but where the heck do you guys the term 'ki' came from?
Daoism.
Chi = Ki = Ch'i = Qi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%27i
The 'monk' is traditionally a Buddhist title (Shaolin Monastery = Buddhist)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaolin_Monastery
having said that though...
Daoism and Buddhism are so intertwined in Chinese / Japanese (Korean?) culture, I still think it's stupid you guys think it's appropriate for Monks to be more about psionics than about Ki.
When you look at the more fantastic/bogus claims for what a "master" can do by channeling his ki/chi/prana – levitation, striking without touching, changing the structure of the body to make it tougher, affecting life functions of himself or others, etc. it is clear that in terms of its mechanical effects, ki and psionics are synonyms. Or more accurately, ki is a vehicle for psionic power. IMO there never was any room for ki to be its own power source.
In this light, psionics IS the perfect fit for the monk.
If it is a problem, have your monk call the source of his power "ki" and there will be no discrepancies. It will fit perfectly.
Elemental isn't going to survive. Elementally oriented damage...Arcane does that. Transumutation (or conjuration, summoning, or polymorph?) of any kind...arcane (and divine?) does that. So...what's going to separate Elemental from the rest? Nothing that I can see.
I've been saying this for a while (as soon as I saw the sorcerer used Wild magic and wasn't elemental.), but the biggest response some people said is that the PHB said elemental will be a power source. Now it seems Ki is dead, so that point isn't valid anymore :D
Well suck that nay-sayers!
I still want someone who can be ryu from street fighter... without multi-classing to warlock... or wizard... or sorceror... and still can throw a punch. Where is that going to be?
Uh, naked Barbarian with enchanted skin?
It makes no sense to me how Ki can't be worked in. You tap spirit energy. Sounds pretty unique. One could make the case about Arcane and Primal being similar because they both draw on outside forces. Or even Arcane and Elemental. Yes, I know, the differences are quite clear. I'm merely playing devil's advocate, but still, one could make that case.
I know I'll come off like an arrogant dink for saying this, but maybe Wizards should hire me.
Wizards, you're REALLY not impressing me. How is it that one person can make a viable ki-based class (ninja) and yet you guys, with your enite team of testers can't even make a playtested Ki Monk? That's pretty pathetic.
They could. Just substitute the word "Psionic" for "Ki" and there you go.
I've been saying this for a while (as soon as I saw the sorcerer used Wild magic and wasn't elemental.), but the biggest response some people said is that the PHB said elemental will be a power source. Now it seems Ki is dead, so that point isn't valid anymore :D
Well suck that nay-sayers!
Mike Mearls says you're wrong.
Thread here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1188810
Thread where he states it: http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?p=10346424#post10346424
Wizards, you're REALLY not impressing me. How is it that one person can make a viable ki-based class (ninja) and yet you guys, with your enite team of testers can't even make a playtested Ki Monk? That's pretty pathetic.
It makes no sense to me how Ki can't be worked in. You tap spirit energy. Sounds pretty unique. One could make the case about Arcane and Primal being similar because they both draw on outside forces. Or even Arcane and Elemental. Yes, I know, the differences are quite clear. I'm merely playing devil's advocate, but still, one could make that case.
I know I'll come off like an arrogant dink for saying this, but maybe Wizards should hire me.
Actually...arcane and elemental aren't different. I fully expect to see elemental get the axe. Like I said somewhere else...damage types based on elements, already done in arcane AND divine...transmutation or polymorphing of any sort, already done in arcane and divine, and primal too. Elemental's got nothing.
As for ki and psionic...I still don't see a difference between spirit and mind. Honestly, in D&D, there isn't a difference between the soul and the mind. Conscious thought is the mind, and when you die, your consciousness moves on to the afterlife. So...what's the difference between the soul and the mind?
If nothing else, ki's dead, that probably won't change now.
They could. Just substitute the word "Psionic" for "Ki" and there you go.
Meh. I'm just not very keen on learning Jean Grey's going to be wearing a monk's suit. I don't envision monks as telepathic, telekinetic, or psychometric. That's a psionicist's job, not a monk's.
Mike Mearls says you're wrong.
Thread here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1188810
Thread where he states it: http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?p=10346424#post10346424
Yeah...Elemental's around for now. PH4 is a long way off yet, I expect it won't make it anyway. Sorry, but unless they come up with something so utterly new and never done before, there's no POSSIBLE way to make even one unique elemental class, let alone 4. And if they use the Shugenja, Wu-Jen or anything like them, then the Elemental source is out of my games. Those classes are just arcanists with an elemental affinity, and nothing more. Now...having said that, it would be more beneficial to the argument for the Elemental power source if someone suggested a methodology for a elemental classes that didn't include damage types based on elements, or transmutations, or polymorphs as the basis. Other power sources do such things in abundance. Unless of course...people are willing to say that martial controllers can do what other controllers can do without magic? Then I'm sure we can reach an accord.
Meh. I'm just not very keen on learning Jean Grey's going to be wearing a monk's suit. I don't envision monks as telepathic, telekinetic, or psychometric. That's a psionicist's job, not a monk's.
Jean Grey wouldn't be putting on a monk's suit. She'll still be a psion (or whatever they end up calling a psion). Just because monks are psionic now doesn't mean all psionic characters will be monks. Dunno why you'd think that.
Jean Grey wouldn't be putting on a monk's suit. She'll still be a psion (or whatever they end up calling a psion). Just because monks are psionic now doesn't mean all psionic characters will be monks. Dunno why you'd think that.
Because really, the only core character concepts for Ki and Psionic powers are a martial artists and a generalized psychic. Making a Psychic Swordsman, a Psychic Archer, a Psychic Brawler, etc. just seem kind of silly.
Yeah...Elemental's around for now. PH4 is a long way off yet, I expect it won't make it anyway. Sorry, but unless they come up with something so utterly new and never done before, there's no POSSIBLE way to make even one unique elemental class, let alone 4.
Who says Elemental won't be in PH3 now? And we don't even really know what Psionics or Shadow will do still, so it's short-sighted to flat out say there's no way for Elemental to be different.
Who says Elemental won't be in PH3 now? And we don't even really know what Psionics or Shadow will do still, so it's short-sighted to flat out say there's no way for Elemental to be different.
No, it's reasonable to say Elemental can't be different until someone proves it can be. Not one suggestion for the Elemental source has been even remotely unique.
But anyway...
Ya know what I just thought of as a prime reason for the monk as psionic and for ki being totally folded into psionic?
Wicked City.
All I keep on thinking of is that one scene in Golden Sun where an NPC tells you that psychic powers and Ki are total opposites and only an idiot would be otherwise mistaken. : /
Because really, the only core character concepts for Ki and Psionic powers are a martial artists and a generalized psychic. Making a Psychic Swordsman, a Psychic Archer, a Psychic Brawler, etc. just seem kind of silly.
Generalized psychic? Huh?
There's the Seer, the Telepath/Empath, the Mover, the Teleporter, the Warrior/Soulknife, etc.
Or in other words, Jean Grey is not Psylocke is not Cable is not Xavier is not Pyro is not Blink is not Mastermind etc.
If true, that's too bad, since I've always considered psionics as optional rule system in previous editions. As a DM, I've never allowed psionics. I have always considered Ki, core to the game. If "ki" is being dumped, and psionics replacing Ki, then, I guess I'm done with 4e.
That idea is completely stupid, because I would never allow psionics in my game, but I still want monk, samurai, ninja...
GP
Can I have your books and stuff?
The movie about rapist demons?
Yup, that's the one. Except that's kind of missing the point. From the perspective of that movie, psychic and spiritual powers were one and the same...with a much stronger leaning both in implementation and flavor toward psionics than spirituality.
No, it's reasonable to say Elemental can't be different until someone proves it can be. Not one suggestion for the Elemental source has been even remotely unique.
But anyway...
Ya know what I just thought of as a prime reason for the monk as psionic and for ki being totally folded into psionic?
Wicked City.
Ok, Druids and Wizards are exactly the same. I mean, come on - they both use tons of elemental spells, amiright? Absolutely no difference. Oh, and Avengers and Barbarians? Pffft, just two different wild and crazy guys. And Bards and Warlords are totally the same.
Nope, you're absolutely right, it's totally impossible to make Elemental different.
Or in other words, Jean Grey is not Psylocke is not Cable is not Xavier is not Pyro is not Blink is not Mastermind etc.
It depends on what version of Jean Grey.
There's the Seer, the Telepath/Empath, the Mover, the Teleporter, the Warrior/Soulknife, etc.
So, what applications would a class that specializes in precognition and clairvoyance have? Epic warning powers?
I don't see how an entire class could be based around teleportation.
Mind Control and Psychokinesis I could see divided into two paths, at the very least.
Warrior/Soulknife still just seems like taking an existing melee striker and saying "See? Now he's psychic!"
Ok, Druids and Wizards are exactly the same. I mean, come on - they both use tons of elemental spells, amiright? Absolutely no difference. Oh, and Avengers and Barbarians? Pffft, just two different wild and crazy guys. And Bards and Warlords are totally the same.
Oh, Monks use the power of the mind somehow, probably!
Warrior/Soulknife still just seems like taking an existing melee striker and saying "See? Now he's psychic!"
Just like the Avenger, Swordmage, and Barbarian, right?
Just like the Avenger, Swordmage, and Barbarian, right?
Actually, yes. I think the concept of the Avenger as a medieval Divine Batman is the goofiest class I've ever seen in a mainline sourcebook. And don't even get me started on Swordmages. And I was never really clear what the difference between a Barbarian and a Warrior would be, besides hygiene.
Ok, Druids and Wizards are exactly the same. I mean, come on - they both use tons of elemental spells, amiright? Absolutely no difference. Oh, and Avengers and Barbarians? Pffft, just two different wild and crazy guys. And Bards and Warlords are totally the same.
Nope, you're absolutely right, it's totally impossible to make Elemental different.
HOW a wizard and druid use their spells is really quite different. Wizards are the most basic with their abracadabra nonsense. Druids in human form generally do that also (one of the reasons I've actually felt Arcane and Divine overlap far too much), but with wild shape and the powers that can ONLY be used in beast form, what they do is completely different from any other controller, let alone class.
Avengers and barbarians likewise deal their additional damage under entirely different circumstances through entirely different methods. Avengers get to roll twice to hit, or they get bonuses to damage depending on whether their enemy tries to flee, or the enemy's pals try to beat you down. Barbarians enrage themselves under specific circumstances that allow for additional damage in certain situations.
Bards and warlords...I might have to let you have that one though, but then, I've never liked bards.
That still doesn't address at all the issue of suggestions as to what way elemental could be different. That whole post was...well I have no idea what it was. It made no point of any sort, nor did it directly refute anything I said. If you want to convince people, suggest a way in which elemental can stand by itself as a power source. Don't just say, "well elemental should be a power source because these other things are also similar in [only the most superficial ways imaginable]," and expect everyone to agree with you. I pointed out that the suggestions for Elemental so far mechanically make it nothing more than another version of the arcane power source, for the most part. Now others get to suggest other ideas that won't fall into that.
I'm saying Martial because there has yet to be a Martial Controller.
gonna say this in caps and big font sizes...THERE IS NO GRID, NOT EVERY ROLE WILL BE COVERED IN EACH POWER SOURCE.
Jeesh.
HOW a wizard and druid use their spells is really quite different. Wizards are the most basic with their abracadabra nonsense. Druids in human form generally do that also (one of the reasons I've actually felt Arcane and Divine overlap far too much), but with wild shape and the powers that can ONLY be used in beast form, what they do is completely different from any other controller, let alone class.
Avengers and barbarians likewise deal their additional damage under entirely different circumstances through entirely different methods. Avengers get to roll twice to hit, or they get bonuses to damage depending on whether their enemy tries to flee, or the enemy's pals try to beat you down. Barbarians enrage themselves under specific circumstances that allow for additional damage in certain situations.
Bards and warlords...I might have to let you have that one though, but then, I've never liked bards.
That still doesn't address at all the issue of suggestions as to what way elemental could be different. That whole post was...well I have no idea what it was. It made no point of any sort, nor did it directly refute anything I said. If you want to convince people, suggest a way in which elemental can stand by itself as a power source. Don't just say, "well elemental should be a power source because these other things are also similar in [only the most superficial ways imaginable]," and expect everyone to agree with you. I pointed out that the suggestions for Elemental so far mechanically make it nothing more than another version of the arcane power source, for the most part. Now others get to suggest other ideas that won't fall into that.
Uh, the entire point of the post was that any similarities were superficial. The same would hold for Elemental. And Psionics. And Shadow. Seriously, it's not hard to figure out. The mechanics are going to be what sets things apart.
No, I can't come up with ideas for how that will happen. That's because I'm not a creator. That doesn't mean it can't be done. But the fact that WotC is doing means it can and has been done, and we are going to see it at some point.
gonna say this in caps and big font sizes...THERE IS NO GRID, NOT EVERY ROLE WILL BE COVERED IN EACH POWER SOURCE.
Jeesh.
For once I gotta agree with you. There doesn't have to be a Martial Controller, unless WotC finds something that really works. They have clearly decided there are more important things to do, like making sure Elemental is a viable source, than filling out some imaginary all important grid.
So the Monk is the new Physic Warrior. I like it.
Uh, the entire point of the post was that any similarities were superficial. The same would hold for Elemental. And Psionics. And Shadow. Seriously, it's not hard to figure out. The mechanics are going to be what sets things apart.
No, I can't come up with ideas for how that will happen. That's because I'm not a creator. That doesn't mean it can't be done. But the fact that WotC is doing means it can and has been done, and we are going to see it at some point.
No, the similarities with elemental would NOT be superficial. If it bases most of its powers on doing elemental damage...it's literally not ANY different form the wizard or sorcerer (depending on role). If it's powers are all about transmuting things or chaos...it might have a shot, but that's awfully thin to try and make 4 classes out of. Mixing them together won't even get 4 worthwhile classes. Someone mentioned that having Fire = striker, Earth = defender, Water = Leader, and Air = Controller would basically be Avatar or or Captain Planet. Which is right. So, what's left?
You're right, it's not impossible. But it's unlikely enough that I'd never place even a small wager on it. And there so far isn't room for any sort of mechanic that would fit a strictly elemental flavor AND not blatantly copy other power sources and classes. Could it be done...who knows really? But it's unlikely enough to be written off. At best, one could say, it's possible. But even with what Mearls said, the odds are against it. They were all sure Ki would be around to, now look at it.
You're not the creative type, and that's fine. I'm not really telling you that you have to write off the elemental power source. I'm just saying that I feel it's a lost cause. So, quit telling me I'm wrong for it. We disagree, that's that. I can come up with reasons why elemental wouldn't be different, and how those same reasons are what make other sources different from each other. Find someone or some article that describes the elemental source in a fashion that keeps it unique, and I might change my mind. Til then, we just have to agree to disagree.
* - I base my statement upon this excerpt: "As we worked on concepts for the monk, we found that the ki power source grew thinner and thinner. The monk's central, mechanical conceit, full disciplines (more on those later), didn't lend itself well as the umbrella mechanic for a power source. It functions better for a class that likes to move around in interesting ways, but that doesn't necessarily point to an entire source. Instead, it points to the striker role. That's not a good leg for an entire power source to stand on."
Why would the "full disciplines" and how they work need to be the "umbrella" for ki? This is back asswards thinking, IMO.
This.
This statement cannot be overstated. It really does seem like the designers were over focused on the monk as and so lost sight of all the potential that could have been ki.
I also agree that Ki power source isn't dead. It's just looking for a new expression.
I am so happy that Ki is gone. I thought it was a terrible pigeonholing of Asian inspired classes.
Ummmm why? Have you ever seen Dragonball Z? Ki and Psionics are not the same thing. Psionics are the power of the mind, Ki is the substance that surrounds all living things, it's Chi basically. Ki to thin? I think it's the designers at WoTc whos brains and ideas are becoming to thin. Ki has so much potential, but once again WotC cops out and just shoves it with something else. These people continue to grow lamer by the minute.
They just proved it with the monk, which is equally monk-like in the ki and psionic power source.
Power sources just make for filler classes designed to cover all the roles. No matter how interesting the mechanics of the invoker or warden or shaman are they're just not as interesting as the traditional classes. And, occasionally, to make the new classes stand out you have to diminish the classic classes.
Since when have they told us that Elemental comes from the elemental chaos? Since when do we know that Shadow comes from the Shadowfell? I never heard these things. They might be, they might not be. Thus, I don't think "Planar" is a likely power source (to replace Elemental and Shadow, anyway. It might be cool on its own.)
I can't wait to hear about them when they come out, though.
Well, divine is essentially gods and the astral plane and related beings, so elemental might be tied to primordials and other elemental beings.
I am so happy that Ki is gone. I thought it was a terrible pigeonholing of Asian inspired classes.
They talked about that in the article. When they were deciding what should be the ki source, they looked at the wu jen, shugenja, samurai, monk, and ninja. After carefully contemplating how this power source would pan out, they finally decided "this is stupid" and threw the ideas out lol.
I think the power source idea has run its course and has failed. They don't add anything but mild and often ignorable thematic elements (typically used in the design of powers). But more often than not what makes a class special and unique is its role and its own personal flavour.
They just proved it with the monk, which is equally monk-like in the ki and psionic power source.
Power sources just make for filler classes designed to cover all the roles. No matter how interesting the mechanics of the invoker or warden or shaman are they're just not as interesting as the traditional classes. And, occasionally, to make the new classes stand out you have to diminish the classic classes.
I gotta say, that this seems to be the case from what I can see.
Considering there was little to no way to make "ki" a unique power source that wasn't just Martial, racist, or Incarnum, this decision is a good thing.
I for one am happy WotC wizened up before they went and did something stupid.
100% Amen.
Ummmm why? Have you ever seen Dragonball Z? Ki and Psionics are not the same thing. Psionics are the power of the mind, Ki is the substance that surrounds all living things, it's Chi basically. Ki to thin? I think it's the designers at WoTc whos brains and ideas are becoming to thin. Ki has so much potential, but once again WotC cops out and just shoves it with something else. These people continue to grow lamer by the minute.
So because you don't like the idea of psionics in DnD its a horrible idea. You have a badly preconceived notion of what a monk HAS to be and of course you dislike 4E so I really don't think you even get to have an opinion here.
Ummmm why? Have you ever seen Dragonball Z? Ki and Psionics are not the same thing. Psionics are the power of the mind, Ki is the substance that surrounds all living things, it's Chi basically. .
First off, if Dragonball z is the best you can muster for defense of ki, then I'm glad it's done - to use dragonball z as the representation of ki you might as well call it the monologue power source.
Also, if ki is the substance that surrounds all living things, that sounds a lot like the force. And Jedi can move things with their mind, read emotions/thoughts, have telepathy, and put ideas into others heads. All things that psionicists could do. So, your example 'proves' that ki is just a reflavouring of psionics.
Ki to thin? I think it's the designers at WoTc whos brains and ideas are becoming to thin. Ki has so much potential, but once again WotC cops out and just shoves it with something else. These people continue to grow lamer by the minute
If you don't like WotC, why don't you do everyone a favour? That is shut up, leave, and don't buy the product. Oh, and while you're at it, since you won't be playing WotC's lame D&D, put your money where your mouth is and design your own RPG and put WotC out of business. Surely this is an easy task since you have such a keen insight on design philosophy.
Granted, I'm kind of a traditionalist and was hoping to see KI as a power source, since it is still what makes the most sense for monks, but WotC made the right decision, and narukagami is right, ki would have been hard to do without being racist. There's been a lot of heat on these forums about how ki does NOT equal asian, especially since when people discuss "Asian" fantasy it's almost always China/Japan centric, completely ignoric the fact that those two nations are not the be all end all of Asia.
I agree that nothing about a samurai or a ninja makes them so wildly different from fighter and rogue (respectively) that they deserve their own class, let alone their own place in a different power source. I would like to see Dragon articles like the gladiator or assasin one to make Samurai or Ninja characters.
And to cut off the inevitable Ninja argument before it starts and I hear "Nuh-uh! Ninjas can teleport and create smoke screens and be almost invisible!" I will say this: Those arts on the part of ninja were craeful trickery and manipulation. Misdirection and sleight of hand, of the kind you would get from a stage magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat. A good rogue can do all of that, just because he doesn't wear a black sock over his face doesn't make him less capable.
CTSShaw, Somoflange, some advice:
Xun is a well known troll on these forums, his threads are full of 4e hatemongering and what I would call a CRIMINAL abuse of syntax. To his credit, in his post on this thread he did not use 3 question marks every single time one would have sufficed, but do a search of how many threads this guy has started, and then count how many of them have been shut down.
His arguments about DBZ illustrate the quality of argument you are going to get from him.
Please, don't feed the trolls.
Also, if ki is the substance that surrounds all living things, that sounds a lot like the force. And Jedi can move things with their mind, read emotions/thoughts, have telepathy, and put ideas into others heads. All things that psionicists could do. So, your example 'proves' that ki is just a reflavouring of psionics.
Baaaad example, since Jedi are a prime reason this shouldn't be done in Dungeons and Dragons.
Jedi are a melding of eastern Ki users and western psychics, and that was one of the things that made Star Wars unique. By aping what Star Wars is doing, the Monks have been changed to martial artists to Jedi in all but name, and instead of being either the power of the mind or the body, Ki and Psionic powers are now just The Force.
These people continue to grow lamer by the minute.
speaking of lame....
If they actually did can ki, could I get one of thosee cans and literally open up a can of whoop*** on someone?
No, that's from the "Alcohol" Power Source.
No, that's from the "Alcohol" Power Source.
I totally get all my powers from the alcohol power source. Not my characters, me.
I have a first level encounter power called "10 Foot Tall and Bulletproof". It's all I need.
No, that's from the "Alcohol" Power Source.
Actually, the Alcohol power source has been absorbed by Psionics now. Didn't you see the Drunken Monkey first level power? ;)
And to cut off the inevitable Ninja argument before it starts and I hear "Nuh-uh! Ninjas can teleport and create smoke screens and be almost invisible!" I will say this: Those arts on the part of ninja were craeful trickery and manipulation. Misdirection and sleight of hand, of the kind you would get from a stage magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat. A good rogue can do all of that, just because he doesn't wear a black sock over his face doesn't make him less capable.
Wrong!
In our real world all the fancy tricks ninja are famous for is just smoke & mirrors, however, D&D isn't REAL, it's FANTASY. In a fantasy setting a "ninja" really does have mystical powers that set it apart from the rogue. Fortunately the power source for the mystically inclined ninja, shadow, seems to have remained intact.
Let's look at previous PHs.
PH1: Arcane/Divine/Martial: 2/2/4
PH2: Arcane/Divine/Primal: 2/2/4
My prediction:
PH3: Martial/Primal/Psionic: 2/2/4
or
PH3: Divine/Martial/Primal/Psionic: 1/1/2/4
I'm saying Martial because there has yet to be a Martial Controller.
I'm saying Primal because of the Wilden.
I'm saying Psionic because of the Monk.
I'll be surprised to see Martial classes in the same book as the Monk. Although it would help explain Martial Power 2.
I agree we'll see see Psionic and Primal. But I think it more likely the 3rd power (and I do believe there will be a third) is either Elemental or Shadow. I know this doesn't follow the PHB2 formula, but I think its likely they won't be limiting themselves to 1 new power source per PHB.
I don't believe there will be one, myself. I've never seen a concept for them that works.
Funnily enough the current build for Monk is pretty close to a Controller. It would have made perfect sense to get rid of the psionic fluff and have the Monk be a melee Martial Controller.
Ummmm why? Have you ever seen Dragonball Z?
Thankfully no. Not for more than 30 seconds or so. :D
Ki and Psionics are not the same thing. Psionics are the power of the mind, Ki is the substance that surrounds all living things, it's Chi basically.
These are your (limited) definitions, but most people who claim to have psychic ability claim the same things that those who claim to cultivate chi do. That they are tapping into something larger than themselves. Though I must admit that I'm not basing my thinking on something as important and authoritative as Dragonball Z, but instead on my practice of Aikido and my amateur interest in parapsychology.
I'm here to discuss things I enjoy, you're here to discuss things you don't enjoy. Think about that.
Anyway, the best thing about the scrapping of Ki continues to be that it will no longer be there to be a dumping ground for Asian inspired classes and concepts. The second best thing is that it doesn't continue to set up cosmological changes in the implied setting of 4E. The Primal power source ended up introducing beings of sufficient cosmological importance to challenge both the gods and the primordials. While I think the Primal power source is cool and all, I didn't like that big historical/cosmological change and am glad that we will not be seeing one in the form of some "ki" force energy or whatnot.
Can I have your books and stuff?
Now I've already digressed on the subject and will see how the psionic monk works out. I'm not happy, but move forward just the same. Besides I still have all my 2e books, even though I haven't played that in over 15 years, and I'm not giving those to you either. :evillaugh
GP
The idea of a mystical energy source that flows invisibly through the world and all things within it is Arcane in D&D. The concept of an animating force present in all living things, but distinct from the soul, is called the 'animus' in D&D (see OG). The idea of a perfect melding of body and mind, brought about through rigid discipline, is apparently going to be part of the Psionic power source, which makes perfect sense to me.
There's still room for a 'soul energy' power source (which could be called 'Ki', though there's no real reason to use that name), but it would have nothing to do with the monk class. Monks don't channel the power of their soul; they use mental and physical disipline. Personally, I suspect that manipulation of 'soul energy' will end up being part of the Shadow power source.
I mean, Ryu, and for that matter half of the cast of street fighter have that whole "I can throw something at you" be it a hadouken, kouken, sonic boom, yoga flame, whatever, and the playtest so far is devoid of any of that.
Maybe because it would be overpowered and unbalanced? Dunno, just throwing it out there... :P
Baaaad example, since Jedi are a prime reason this shouldn't be done in Dungeons and Dragons.
Jedi are a melding of eastern Ki users and western psychics, and that was one of the things that made Star Wars unique. By aping what Star Wars is doing, the Monks have been changed to martial artists to Jedi in all but name, and instead of being either the power of the mind or the body, Ki and Psionic powers are now just The Force.
All we're going to get soon is copy-catting anyway. The creative wells are drying up in all genres and media. The have been for almost two decades, but now it's really getting bad. That's one of the two reasons that "reality" TV is so popular and prevalent now...the other reason for it is common stupidity...
While I'm looking forward to the new Star Trek movie...there was just NO reasonable purpose at all to having made it...aside from money and a lack of original ideas. The same is true of nearly ever "big" movie coming out this year. Terminator, G.I. Joe, Woverine, Transformers. They didn't turn to comics and novels and classic cartoons because they wanted to. They ran out of ideas. They only picked THOSE most popular ones because they're the most likely to make the most money.
All writers are drying up...and that stupid Seinfeld was just the beginning (much as I like the Soup-Nazi).
Now...having said that, I really don't mind a slew of remakes and adaptations, and cross-overs. There's nothing wrong with jazzing things up or giving them a different direction. Like I said, I'm looking forward to most of the "big" movies this year. Heck, I even liked the remake of The Day The Earth Stood Still...it was horrible garbage compared to the original, but on its own it really wasn't that bad.
I just think they should've been doing more of that the whole time, instead of trying to do everything NEW, NEW, NEW til there were no really GOOD new ideas left. Spreading it all out would've allowed for greater appreciation of worthwhile work, with less force-fed crap, and plenty of intriguing reimaginings of classic ideas. But, society's obssession with instant gratification and entitlement has screwed that pooch good.
But...that's just me I suppose.
In all honesty, it wouldn't surprise me if the accusations of racism that get brought up in fear of "Ki" being the catchall Asian power source was an unspoken factor in their decision to scrap it as a power source.
I hope not. There may have been fools that saw it that way, but for some of us Ki was its own unique concept and not some generic dumping ground for all the "Asian" classes.
Still there are statements in the Design & Development article that make me worry that was how WotC was treating the ki power source, causing them to dump it for all the wrong reasons. I normally have a lot of respect for the folks at WotC, but this recent development has left me questioning that trust.
People who hate Elemental and can't see how they'd be different, just look at either Oriental Adventure's or at least Complete Arcane / Divine and check out the Wu-jen and Shugenja, they are different to Wizards / Clerics and Druids.
Elemental - Deals with manipulating elements and transforming into elements. Unlike Primal which tranforms into aspects or channels primal energies. Elemental focuses on the elements exclusively to generate effects.
Some ideas:
Wu-Jen: An elemental controller who primarily focuses on all the elements and manipulating them, he has a side focus on a particular element but is the prime manipulator of all elements. Has a good selection of transformation powers and a lesser focus on summoning.
Shugenja: Elemental Leader, focuses on direct elements and infusing spirits with elemental power. Fire to boost attacks, Earth to boost defences, Air to boost movement and Water to heal.
Elemental Striker: Focuses on a particular element (or two) and integrates them into combat. An elementaly focused striker, mixing ranged and melee combat arts mixed with elemental power. Think Naruto styled Ninja
Elemental Defender: Uses elemental transformations to power his attack, probably too similar to the Barbarian or Warden and Swordmage, but still made distinctive by elemental transformations rather than primal ones and his style of attacks being more controller focused?
As for Ki, its still a mistake to sideline it. I see two possible ways for it progress.
1) Martial with extra soul.
Mostly martial, but with their soul poured into their actions, big focus on aura's eminating from the character.
So we'd see:
Crusader: Ki Defender/Leader, self rigtheous Paladin, no deties just him and his cause. People around him feel more confident, his enemies feel oppressed, a heavy armoured warrior. Many powers generate an aura that aids and bolsters his allies defences.
Troubadour: The none Arcane Bard, and the Ki Leader. With more focus on weapons or chants to lift peoples spirits this troub still plays differently to the bard. Less focus on trickery and more focus on direct support and bolstering allies. Also features Aura powers, mostly beneficial kinds. The Troub isn't combat afraid, but has different preferences to the Bard. More inherently focused on ranged weapons and sidelines.
Archer: The Ki Controller, beyond what a Ranger can achieve the Archer (WTO) shoots arrows to control the battlefield, with a watchful eye on the full field he snipes at people from a distance and can catch out people by paying particular atttention to an area.
Monk: Ki Striker, like the 4E Monk... but Ki instead of Psionic...
Otherwise, we could see Ki as an actual energy that's projected. It deals with the soul, Ki characters focus on manipulating people and their energies more than other classes.
Ki Defender: Hex Blade, curses a persons soul, dehibilitating them. Uses a weapon in combat with Hexes as their marking mechanic. Hex Blades focus on inhibiting people and applying penalties, whilst subdueing them with weapon techniques.
Ki Striker: Soul Thief, similar to the Spell Theif from CA, the Soul Thief directly impacts a persons ability to act. Redirecting their actions, taking their powers with a sideline in debuffs, a stealthy warrior who infects a persons soul.
Ki Controller: Channeller, Channels Ki into blasts, again - focuses on debuffs rather than terrain control. Also manipulates people's actions.
Ki Leader: Karmic - directs spiritual force within people. Bolstering his allies beyond what they can normally achieve. Manipulates fortunes towards the benefit of his allies, whilst causing misfortun to befall his enemies.
I still like the idea of Ki classes, especially the Crusader, Troubadour and Hexblade (with Crusader and Troub being needed classes).
I think Elemental has some potential for interesting ideas, even though mine steal a little from Primal, there's still a massive scope of difference in Elemental and what it achieves and how different it is.
Elemental, however, can easily exist.
Thematically, Elemental classes bind elementals. Either as servants, or too items.
Mechanically, I think elementals powers will have thier damage types unspecified.
The controller's at-wills would be summons, each corresponding to an elemental type. His encounters and dailies would deal the damage type appropriate to the summon currently active.
The Defender would bind an elemental to his flesh in his extended rests. He would pick one damage type per tier, and his powers would deal those damage types.
The Striker would wear heavy armour and bind elementals to it and his weapon in short rests. When he hits someone, the elemental is released for a round or two.
It was also the only reason we where not gonna inlclude them in a collabritive camapaign setting project we are doing. Which now means we will.
Good riddance Ki.
All we're going to get soon is copy-catting anyway. The creative wells are drying up in all genres and media. The have been for almost two decades, but now it's really getting bad. That's one of the two reasons that "reality" TV is so popular and prevalent now...the other reason for it is common stupidity...
I put it more on stupidity. There have been some great fresh shows out there but they don't last for more than a season because most people like to stay in their formulaic comfort zone. Firefly, Pushing Daisies, not to mention some that are on the bubble right now. It's not that the creativity isn't there, rather that when it rears it's head it gets slapped down by the ratings.
While I'm looking forward to the new Star Trek movie...there was just NO reasonable purpose at all to having made it...aside from money and a lack of original ideas.
Money and a huge fan base of Star Trek that would love to see the movie (ties into money). Even with the questionable quality of the ones that were made, you can't tell me you wouldn't want to see a well written, good production D&D movie if one came down the pike.
The same is true of nearly ever "big" movie coming out this year. Terminator, G.I. Joe, Woverine, Transformers. They didn't turn to comics and novels and classic cartoons because they wanted to. They ran out of ideas.
That's really stretching things. It's a bit specious to say that the reason they're making these movies is because they ran out of ideas. All of these were someone's idea. Movies have a long history of adapting other art forms into a movie format. If it's something they can make money from, then of course they'll follow that it. They'd be stupid not to. Many of these are, as is common in movie adaptations, "re-imaginings." Taking an existing property and retelling it. Terminator is simply a continuation of the story set up int he original trilogy. Is R.A. Salvatore out of ideas because he continues the story of Drizzt? Is Terry Goodkind out of ideas because he continues the story of Richard Rahl? Is L.E. Modesitt, Jr out of ideas because he continues to expand on the world set forth in The Magic of Recluse?
They only picked THOSE most popular ones because they're the most likely to make the most money.
Can you blame them?
All writers are drying up...and that stupid Seinfeld was just the beginning (much as I like the Soup-Nazi).
You know, Seinfeld was widely considered by many to be groundbreaking in it's genre. Just because you didn't like it doesn't mean that it wasn't a good idea or bad writing.
But...that's just me I suppose.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
This power source is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet its maker! This is a late power source! It's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed him to the game he would be pushing up the daisies! Its metabolical processes are of interest only to historians! It's hopped the twig! It's shuffled off this mortal coil! It's run down the curtain and joined the choir invisible! This.... is an EX-POWER SOURCE!
That out of the way, I think Elemental is still possible. There's a lot of possibilities there still. Heck, you could do a class for each classical element. Striker = Fire
Controller = Air
Leader = Water
Defender = Earth
It's silly, but would be kinda cool. I don't even have to be creative to think it up. Elemental is untammed, but not in the same way Primal is. Primal is about drawing on the power of nature. Elemental powers are literally the building blocks of the world. Elemental could also be like divine in a sense. You draw your power from the Elemental Chaos, just like a cleric draws on their god. Look how many ways Divine power has been used. There's still plenty of options left.
Of course, the creativity wells haven't really dried up just recently. My guess is that we naturally have a biased perspective. We see everything that's being produced today, so we see the glut of unimaginative and uncreative material. Past works seem more creative to us because we experience the creative works. There have been trashy paperback novels since the 1890's, but we never really read them anymore. Why? Because when schools choose historical literature to teach, or bookstores choose books to stock, they'll only stock the ones that are considered good. Which are often the creative ones.
So we only really experience the creativity of the past, and coupled with our experiencing the uncreativity of the present, we could easily develop a biased perspective that present works are less creative overall than past.
That being said, I always hated the idea of making the samurai a ki thing, so this is cool. Ever since I read about the Kalashtar in Eberron, monks seemed so much more psionic. Not telepath psionic, but psychic warrior psionic.
In all honesty, it wouldn't surprise me if the accusations of racism that get brought up in fear of "Ki" being the catchall Asian power source was an unspoken factor in their decision to scrap it as a power source.
WotC was actually the one that brought up the fear in the first place. And they did so quite a while ago.
This is what I'd like to see:
Show
4 Psionic/2 Shadow/2 Elemental
Monk - Psionic Striker:
We know this one already.
Psion - Psionic Controller:
Key Stats: Constitution, Intelligence, Charisma
Will probably have two builds: a telekinetic (INT/DEX) and a telepath (INT/CHA).
Empath - Psionic Leader:
Key Stats: Charisma, Wisdom, Dexterity
Will probably use psychic empathy powers to buff/heal allies.
Psychic Warrior - Psionic Defender
Key Stats: Intelligence, Strength, Dexterity
The Psychic Warrior will probably be a defender-y version of the weapon wielding Monk.
Ninja - Shadow Striker
Key Stats: Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom
The "True Assassin", probably focusing on teleports/phasing for strategic positioning and dealing shadow/poison damage over time.
Necromancer - Shadow Leader
Key Stats: Intelligence, Constitution, Charisma
Focused on summoning undead and necrotic/cold/poison magic attacks. There should also be a focus on buff spells, either by first damaging an enemy, then draining some of it's life and giving it to an ally, or by making allies more like undead.
Wu Jen - Elemental Controller
Key Stats: Wisdom, Intelligence, Charisma
Whatever WotC has decided is the Elemental Power Source's shtick, this is the controller.
Shugenja - Elemental Leader
Key Stats: Wisdom, Dexterity, Intelligence
Whatever WotC has decided is the Elemental Power Source's shtick, this is the leader.
Then an Oriental setting for the 2010 release, with the Samurai as the Multiclass-only class. I'm not sure what base class would be included.
Monk - Psionic Striker:
We know this one already.
Psion - Psionic Controller:
Key Stats: Constitution, Intelligence, Charisma
Will probably have two builds: a telekinetic (INT/DEX) and a telepath (INT/CHA).
Empath - Psionic Leader:
Key Stats: Charisma, Wisdom, Dexterity
Will probably use psychic empathy powers to buff/heal allies.
Psychic Warrior - Psionic Defender
Key Stats: Intelligence, Strength, Dexterity
The Psychic Warrior will probably be a defender-y version of the weapon wielding Monk.
Ninja - Shadow Striker
Key Stats: Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom
The "True Assassin", probably focusing on teleports/phasing for strategic positioning and dealing shadow/poison damage over time.
Necromancer - Shadow Leader
Key Stats: Intelligence, Constitution, Charisma
Focused on summoning undead and necrotic/cold/poison magic attacks. There should also be a focus on buff spells, either by first damaging an enemy, then draining some of it's life and giving it to an ally, or by making allies more like undead.
Wu Jen - Elemental Controller
Key Stats: Wisdom, Intelligence, Charisma
Whatever WotC has decided is the Elemental Power Source's shtick, this is the controller.
Shugenja - Elemental Leader
Key Stats: Wisdom, Dexterity, Intelligence
Whatever WotC has decided is the Elemental Power Source's shtick, this is the leader.
Then an Oriental setting for the 2010 release, with the Samurai as the Multiclass-only class. I'm not sure what base class would be included.
First off, For those who think Ki is coming back:
This power source is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet its maker! This is a late power source! It's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed him to the game he would be pushing up the daisies! Its metabolical processes are of interest only to historians! It's hopped the twig! It's shuffled off this mortal coil! It's run down the curtain and joined the choir invisible! This.... is an EX-POWER SOURCE!
Thank you for explaining that it has gone the way of John Cleese's parrot
Ummmm why? Have you ever seen Dragonball Z? Ki and Psionics are not the same thing.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek: describing chinese culture using DragonBall reference since 2009.
WotC was actually the one that brought up the fear in the first place. And they did so quite a while ago.
I only recall reading that they didn't want "ki" to be synonymous with "asian". I think all the ridiculous claims of "racism" are purely the product of overreacting posters who don't fully grasp what the term means.
I only recall reading that they didn't want "ki" to be synonymous with "asian". I think all the ridiculous claims of "racism" are purely the product of overreacting posters who don't fully grasp what the term means.
I don't think its racist but I do think Ki would have served to pigeon hole the power source and the classes related to it to at least pseudo asian flavor. I also think that that would go against the fluff lite core book feel.
I only recall reading that they didn't want "ki" to be synonymous with "asian". I think all the ridiculous claims of "racism" are purely the product of overreacting posters who don't fully grasp what the term means.
Or, perhaps you have not looked at ANY of the threads on these forums along the lines of people expressing distaste at that exact implication. Furthermore, not only were people seeing ki=Asian, but they were thinking Asian=Japan/China. There's more of Asia than just 2 countries, and yes, people from places like the Phillipenes, India, Korea, Thailand, Laos, etc. WERE in fact, getting offended.
Seriously, I think that the soulknife will get amalgimated into the psychic warrior or visa versa.
Gotta love monty python
In all honesty, I loved the Soulknife. That didn't stop my fellow players from calling me a Jedi.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek: describing chinese culture using DragonBall reference since 2009.
I have been practicing Tae Kwon Do and Shaolin Chin Na Kung Fu for about 15 years now so I know what it is from a realistic stand point. I used Dragonball Z because it is a good example of Chi/Ki used in an unrealistic fantasy setting.
Or, perhaps you have not looked at ANY of the threads on these forums along the lines of people expressing distaste at that exact implication. Furthermore, not only were people seeing ki=Asian, but they were thinking Asian=Japan/China. There's more of Asia than just 2 countries, and yes, people from places like the Phillipenes, India, Korea, Thailand, Laos, etc. WERE in fact, getting offended.
I don't buy that. If you look at it D&D could offend every culture and religion on the planet.
I have been practicing Tae Kwon Do and Shaolin Chin Na Kung Fu for about 15 years now so I know what it is from a realistic stand point. I used Dragonball Z because it is a good example of Chi/Ki used in an unrealistic fantasy setting.
Dragonball Z is to Ki what Full Metal Alchemist is to Alchemy. Except... Worse. DBZ has almost 0 connection to the real life Ki stuff.
That said... I rather like FMA, and I did like DBZ before it got trashed.
Dragonball Z is to Ki what Full Metal Alchemist is to Alchemy. Except... Worse. DBZ has almost 0 connection to the real life Ki stuff.
That said... I rather like FMA, and I did like DBZ before it got trashed.
Yes thats why I said it represents unrealistic aspects of Chi.
Ummmm why? Have you ever seen Dragonball Z? Ki and Psionics are not the same thing. Psionics are the power of the mind, Ki is the substance that surrounds all living things, it's Chi basically. Ki to thin? I think it's the designers at WoTc whos brains and ideas are becoming to thin. Ki has so much potential, but once again WotC cops out and just shoves it with something else. These people continue to grow lamer by the minute.
You'll notice that in Dragonball Z several characters have telepathic and telekinetic abilities. So even in your example, Ki and Psi are related.
You may also notice that combatants in DBZ all fight in a very similar way. One class does not make a power source.
I have been practicing Tae Kwon Do and Shaolin Chin Na Kung Fu for about 15 years now so I know what it is from a realistic stand point. I used Dragonball Z because it is a good example of Chi/Ki used in an unrealistic fantasy setting.
No offense, but as a student of East Asian History, I've found that more often than not a practitioner of martial arts knows absolutely nothing about the actual culture or history of the place of their art's origin, but have no issues with pretending that they do.
I'm not saying about you directly, I'm just saying I'd question anything a martial arts class teaches you beyond punching and kicking.
I don't buy that. If you look at it D&D could offend every culture and religion on the planet.
There is a difference between "we're going to take ideas from here and there and incorporate them in various ways to the point these aspects clearly only served as an inspiration" and "we're going to take ideas from here and there and incorporate them in various ways to the point these aspects clearly only served as an inspiration, except anything Asian, which we will lump under this label, regardless of what it is, because its Asian."
The latter is what people were afraid was going to happen, and is the definition of cultural prejudice. You might as well call it the "slanty-eyes power source" at that point.
Monks in 4e use intense training and their minds to unlock their body's hidden potential.
... I don't see a difference, really.
No offense, but as a student of East Asian History, I've found that more often than not a practitioner of martial arts knows absolutely nothing about the actual culture or history of the place of their art's origin, but have no issues with pretending that they do.
I'm not saying about you directly, I'm just saying I'd question anything a martial arts class teaches you beyond punching and kicking.
There is a difference between "we're going to take ideas from here and there and incorporate them in various ways to the point these aspects clearly only served as an inspiration" and "we're going to take ideas from here and there and incorporate them in various ways to the point these aspects clearly only served as an inspiration, except anything Asian, which we will lump under this label, regardless of what it is, because its Asian."
The latter is what people were afraid was going to happen, and is the definition of cultural prejudice. You might as well call it the "slanty-eyes power source" at that point.
There is a lot more to martial arts than just punching and kicking. I didn't go to a school where your belt came with your Gi. I take pride in the styles that I learned.
When you take this to the level of fantasy (and monks are fantastic in this version, definitely not Martial when they have powers that deal fire and cold damage), what you get is functionally similar to the things one would expect to see in the psionic power source.
Would all of you Ki loving weaboo have been happier if psionics got the axe and the previously psionic characters got placed in Ki? Soulknives are warriors who focus their Ki so strongly it becomes an energy weapon. Telepaths are mentalists who focus their Ki so strongly their senses extend beyond their body, giving them control of minds. Kineticists are people who focus their Ki so strongly they are able to violently expel it out of their body ...
Personally, if I was still using D&D for my own setting, I would call Psionics "Ki" and be done with it; I have for years. Then again, back in 3E I made a psionic monk (basically it was a blending of the monk and the psychic warrior to create a class that had more flavor and more of a place in my world).
While I had long ago come to terms with Ki being its own power source alongside psionics, I agree that it had the potential to simply be the "asian" power source. It could have been made more broad (such as stealing notions from "Book of Nine Swords"), but when the Monk was the only real placeholder Ki class, it was simply easier to move it and not everything else.
Though, to play devil's advocate, the word "ki" fits traditional fantasy more than "psionics". But D&D really isn't just traditional fantasy, what with mindflayers and other things.
Or, perhaps you have not looked at ANY of the threads on these forums along the lines of people expressing distaste at that exact implication. Furthermore, not only were people seeing ki=Asian, but they were thinking Asian=Japan/China. There's more of Asia than just 2 countries, and yes, people from places like the Phillipenes, India, Korea, Thailand, Laos, etc. WERE in fact, getting offended.
This is exactly what im talking about. None of that deals with actual racism. Some cultures being covered and other ignored (which is what most of those complaints dealt with) doesn't necessarily have anything to do with concepts of "race" or prejudice based on a concept of "race". Its just a bunch of upset people using a hot-button word without understanding what they are talking about.
Shoulda used Kung Fu Hustle instead of Dragonball Z .... ;) :P
If the monk used the Kung Fu Hustle power source, it would be made of pure win.
KIONICS! 
No matter how interesting the mechanics of the invoker or warden or shaman are they're just not as interesting as the traditional classes. And, occasionally, to make the new classes stand out you have to diminish the classic classes.
Says you. I happen to like all 3 of those classes.
Power sources are silly. If a class seems like a good idea, they should design it weather or not it fits in some arbitrary flavor grid.
I partially agree. It's a good flavor to have...but they would've saved themselves a huge amount of trouble if they'd just put a muzzle on arcane and divine magic. Those two are such blanket sources that it makes it near impossible to come up with much outside them that shouldn't be PART of them. Since I hate arcane and divine, I'd rather certain classes not get made than be categorized as either of those.
I don't buy that. If you look at it D&D could offend every culture and religion on the planet.
Except that it wasn't D&D doing the offending, it was the posters on these forums, in postulating their fan wishlists for ki classes, it was apparent that to many of them ki=Asian, and the real bone of contention was that to many Asian=China/Japan. There is more to Asia than China and Japan, and people from those countries, or who trace their ancestry to them find that assumption highly offensive. A lot of people on these boards are guilty of that, even if it wasn't intentional, and I think for most of us it was not.
This is exactly what im talking about. None of that deals with actual racism. Some cultures being covered and other ignored (which is what most of those complaints dealt with) doesn't necessarily have anything to do with concepts of "race" or prejudice based on a concept of "race". Its just a bunch of upset people using a hot-button word without understanding what they are talking about.
WHAT?
So, an overgeneraliztion and dismissal of the uniqueness of different cultures simply because they live in a similar geographic region to another isn't racist and ethnocentric?
What if someone said that all Latin American culture basically only meant Mexican? I guarantee you that people from Argentina, Ecuador, Peru, Panama, etc. would find that highly offensive, and yes, it is racist.
Wrong!
In our real world all the fancy tricks ninja are famous for is just smoke & mirrors, however, D&D isn't REAL, it's FANTASY. In a fantasy setting a "ninja" really does have mystical powers that set it apart from the rogue. Fortunately the power source for the mystically inclined ninja, shadow, seems to have remained intact.
First off, we have no idea what classes are going to be in Shadow power source, other than the numerous blind conjectures on these boards claiming "necromancer" and "ninja". So your last statement is completely nonsensical. Furthermore on that note, the 3.5 Ninja that we had we clearly defined as "ki", and that power source has been canked.
You want a good Oriental-themed Fantasy setting that has ninja, look at L5R (Legend of the 5 Rings). Well done fantasy, can do lots of ninja-like tricks, no "shadow magic". Those ninja are more "Martial" than anything. Just because a ninja is in a fantasy setting doesn't make it anything other than a rogue who wears a black sock on his head.
Not all fantasy ninja have mystical powers, and there's no reason to be so caught up in ninja-fandom to assume that ninja in a fantasy setting HAVE to have them. The whole Ninja-fandom thing is, in a lot of ways like the DBZ thing. People just think ninja are super-BA shadow-warriors who could be invisible, teleport, and kill anything instantly.
Mind you, I'm not rabidly anti-ninja, I just think the ninja who gives the APPEARANCE of doing those things all with skill and deception is much MUCH cooler. But mechanically, that's just a rogue with some cool changes in flavor.
In DBZ, the characters use intense training and their minds to unlock their body's hidden potential.
Monks in 4e use intense training and their minds to unlock their body's hidden potential.
... I don't see a difference, really.
QFT, but I would also add "Psionic characters use intense training and their minds to unlock their hidden potential" to drive the point home.
Why do people keep bringing up L5R. It had "ok" fluff. Their treatment of "shadow" was irritating at best, honor should never be a mechanic of any sort, and the actual system of dice-rolling was completely and unnecessarily overdone.
I dunno why you posted all that... It's gonna be a fanboi-style ninja anyway. That's what makes money.
Why do people keep bringing up L5R. It had "ok" fluff. Their treatment of "shadow" was irritating at best, honor should never be a mechanic of any sort, and the actual system of dice-rolling was completely and unnecessarily overdone.
I regret that you are probably correct. I didn't mind the 3.5 ninja AS much, but I still wasn't a big fan. However, the Design and Development article mentioned that samurai will be handled in a similar manner that the gladiator was, as player options to existing classes. This gives me at least SOME hope that ninja will be handled in a similar fashion.
why does anyone think there will be an elemental power source? In my opinion it seems as untenable as the ki power source.
It was actually covered in the 4e core books, they mention some of the upcoming power sources and listed Primal, Psionic, Ki, Shadow and Elemental.
It was actually covered in the 4e core books, they mention some of the upcoming power sources and listed Primal, Psionic, Ki, Shadow and Elemental.
ok but i still don't really see what they cold do with it that would set it apart from arcane or primal power
First off, we have no idea what classes are going to be in Shadow power source, other than the numerous blind conjectures on these boards claiming "necromancer" and "ninja". So your last statement is completely nonsensical.
True enough, we don't know what classes will be in shadow the power source. However, if I had any point it was more to the course of not all of us automatically assigned every Asian themed class to the Ki power source (or in other words, ki didn't have to be an Asian dumping ground).
Mind you, I'm not rabidly anti-ninja, I just think the ninja who gives the APPEARANCE of doing those things all with skill and deception is much MUCH cooler. But mechanically, that's just a rogue with some cool changes in flavor.
Good for you. For you the rogue is all you need. The rogue's ability to represent a reality based ninja has never been lost on me. That is however no good reason not to also create a class suitable to the concept of a mystically empowered assassin/spy that moves in shadow. Ninja is just an appropriately deceptive label for that concept. Sure other labels might work (like shadowdancer), but few other names carry the kind of instant recognition factor that the word ninja does.
It's the same reason I support the creation of a samurai class. It's not that I think any one class could encompasses everything it means to be a samurai, or that there are not already classes that fit certain samurai-like concepts. Rather instead it is that samurai is to me a fundamental fantasy archetype in and of itself. Sure there are different kinds of samurai over numerous varieties of fiction, but I truly feel that there are enough unifying concepts to serve as the basic foundation of a class.
ok but i still don't really see what they cold do with it that would set it apart from arcane or primal power
They could, for example, associate each element with a different class, rather than create 4 classes with powers from all the elements. I actually think that would work better in creating strong classes with consistent themes. The stone class would be defenders, the air class strikers, etc. They'd have to be careful not to make powers with all the same damage types, but that's really only a danger with fire, as none of the other classical elements has a damage type directly tied to it.
why does anyone think there will be an elemental power source? In my opinion it seems as untenable as the ki power source.
I do have to agree with your statement, with one caveat, of course: If the elemental power source is thought of along the lines of the classical elemental archetypes. Earth, Fire, Wind, Water. Each of these was separate. 4e however, if you look at the elementals, has combined at least two elements drawn from Earth, Fire, Wind, Water and Heart.. err.. Storm I mean. The elements are not separate anymore, not even in their own planes. There is only the elemental chaos.
Now, if I recall correctly, the elemental chaos is the beginning of all creation in the D&D world. Dragons, Demons, the prime material, etc. etc. It all started with the Elemental Chaos.
My bet is that the Elemental power source will be less about manipulating the classic elements, and more about combining, reshaping and possibly creating things by manipulating the new elemental list of Earth, Fire, Wind, Water and Storm. Much of what we have come to be familiar with when it comes to elemental nature has been thrown out the window, and I bet any classes that use the elemental powersouce will be newer concepts of the aforementioned combining, reshaping and/or creating.
If I were doing it I'd create classes that can alter/change up the elements at will. For instance, a defender could alter the battlefield by turning the earth around a target into water, A striker could turn the water inside their foes body into fire, so it burns them from the inside out and such. Of course I haven't fully fleshed out the concept, but it would be a different take. Basically, my idea of the elemental power source is akin to the old transmutation wizard school.
Now, of course, the real trick would be making it feel different from arcane, which is the de facto catch all power source.
Except that it wasn't D&D doing the offending, it was the posters on these forums, in postulating their fan wishlists for ki classes, it was apparent that to many of them ki=Asian, and the real bone of contention was that to many Asian=China/Japan. There is more to Asia than China and Japan, and people from those countries, or who trace their ancestry to them find that assumption highly offensive. A lot of people on these boards are guilty of that, even if it wasn't intentional, and I think for most of us it was not.
I happen to be of a Han Chinese background, and I found those posters to be offensive. Though I may be born in Canada, don't own a super-modified Honda like other Chinese or that I may be capable of drinking more than most Asians, I know most of these posters have no real idea what Asians are like.
And frankly if I was Korean, or Vietnamese or Filipino in background, I'd probably be even more offended by half of their posts.
And I got really sick of them saying that D&D should be like anime X or anime Y. And even if they were to draw from movies, I know of plenty of better ones to base stuff off of.
There is a lot more to martial arts than just punching and kicking. I didn't go to a school where your belt came with your Gi. I take pride in the styles that I learned.
I love it when people ascribe spiritual value to punching others in the face.
I love it when people ascribe spiritual value to punching others in the face.
That's the difference between a fantasy monk and a fantasy martial artist, though. To a monk, it is a religion, a lifestyle. There is more to it than punching others in the face because the whole face punching is just an aspect of their lives. They are generally seeking physical and spiritual perfection; learning to fight is one of the ways they train the body.
When we are talking about a fantasy monk who can throw fire and cold and force around, we're talking about something more than someone who punches people in the face.
If you want face punching, use a fighter or rogue and ask your DM if you can take the monk's unarmed combat ability as a feat; I'd let you.
I have no Idea what they even mean by Elemental; I have a feeling it's going to sort of be similar to Divine in that it draws it's power from a particular group of super beings, that's really the only way I can see it being interesting as a power source.
I don't buy into any of that "each power source has a plane" stuff, it never makes any sense; I believe each power source has concepts, origins and beliefs all to their own and some of those are connected to a plane in some way.
People keep saying that Shadow power comes from the plane of shadow, Divine power comes from the Astral sea, blah blah blah; but so far what I'm seeing is that it's not that each power is the product of each plane, it's that some planes are the product of certain powers.
I don't buy into any of that "each power source has a plane" stuff, it never makes any sense; I believe each power source has concepts, origins and beliefs all to their own and some of those are connected to a plane in some way.
What's more crippling to the theory is that when Ki was still in, you had four as the material plane (Martial, Ki, Primal and Psionic (and Psionic=Far Realm is simply stupid in my opinion)). Now your down to three.
WHAT?
So, an overgeneraliztion and dismissal of the uniqueness of different cultures simply because they live in a similar geographic region to another isn't racist and ethnocentric?
Ethnocentric perhaps, racist, no. Showing undue preference of one culture over another may be a result of cultural prejudice but when people start throwing around the word "racism" when no one is ascribing any behavior or culture to anyone of a particular "race", then they are either using the word "racism" out of ignorance of what it really means or intentionally misusing the term in an attempt to evoke an emotional response.
What if someone said that all Latin American culture basically only meant Mexican? I guarantee you that people from Argentina, Ecuador, Peru, Panama, etc. would find that highly offensive, and yes, it is racist.
Culturally ignorant, yes. Racist, hardly. That would be like saying all americans are just like new yorkers. People from california can be offended all they like but that doesnt mean the view has anything to do with racism since being from a specific place doesn't suddenly make you a specific "race". You seem to be confusing "culture" with "race".
I happen to be of a Han Chinese background, and I found those posters to be offensive. Though I may be born in Canada, don't own a super-modified Honda like other Chinese or that I may be capable of drinking more than most Asians, I know most of these posters have no real idea what Asians are like.
And frankly if I was Korean, or Vietnamese or Filipino in background, I'd probably be even more offended by half of their posts.
And I got really sick of them saying that D&D should be like anime X or anime Y. And even if they were to draw from movies, I know of plenty of better ones to base stuff off of.
Imagine how much the people from England feel about Wizard of the Coast mangling their ancestor's cultural background as well?!
New Topic; Are we only going to get 6 classes now that there's only 7 power sources or will Ki be replaced by a new power source?
Imagine how much the people from England feel about Wizard of the Coast mangling their ancestor's cultural background as well?!
I know that some Scandinavians don't like WotC mangling their ancestor's cultural background.
We only know that we'll have psionics and hybrid classes. We may not see any other new power source in PH3. We know that shadow and elemental are being worked on but no confirmation if they'll be ready for the PH3. I suspect we'll likely only see one new power source at most per PH, with new class options for the other power sources as the rules expand. Only the first PH had more than 1 new power source but that's needed since it's the starting book. PH2 only had one new source, and 2 more classes each for the 2 power sources from PH1 that didn't get 4 classes.
Now that I think about it, it makes more sense for them to do 4&4, 4 Psionic & 4 of something else; If they start out the year with two complete power sources then they can drop Psionic Power and another source book in the same year. Only one new source a year for three years? that's harsh.
I will be surprised if Shadow doesn't make it as a power source because there are already paragon paths which have the Shadow keyword available and because shadow is a big part of the 4E cosmology - Shadowfell. We already have fey based classes which seem to have some sort of connection to the Feywild, so it would seem strange to me if they ignore the other half of the cosmology.
Now that I think about it, it makes more sense for them to do 4&4, 4 Psionic & 4 of something else; If they start out the year with two complete power sources then they can drop Psionic Power and another source book in the same year. Only one new source a year for three years? that's harsh.
4/2/2/0 + 0/2/2/4 = four new complete power sources in 2 years, just like 4/4/0/0 + 0/0/4/4 would be.
That said, I suspect the primary reason for D&D having initially been 4/2/2/0 was that they wanted the four main archetype characters - fighter, wizard, rogue, cleric. Anything less than those 3 power sources would have been pretty lame. Once they'd done that, obviously they had to fill in the gaps, and thus PHB2 had 0/2/2/4.
I don't really see that rationale applying to PHB3. 4/4 per PHB from now on makes sense to me, provided they bring out 8 classes each tie.
Now that I think about it, it makes more sense for them to do 4&4, 4 Psionic & 4 of something else; If they start out the year with two complete power sources then they can drop Psionic Power and another source book in the same year. Only one new source a year for three years? that's harsh.
Depends how quickly you want the books to turn unprofitable. The sooner the books turn unprofitable, the sooner we get a new edition.
I don't know if 1 new power source per PHB would be more profitable then a PHB with nothing but classes for old power sources. But either way, WotC has a decision to make and I doubt they'll be doing whichever is the least "harsh".
That's the difference between a fantasy monk and a fantasy martial artist, though. To a monk, it is a religion, a lifestyle. There is more to it than punching others in the face because the whole face punching is just an aspect of their lives. They are generally seeking physical and spiritual perfection; learning to fight is one of the ways they train the body.
When we are talking about a fantasy monk who can throw fire and cold and force around, we're talking about something more than someone who punches people in the face.
If you want face punching, use a fighter or rogue and ask your DM if you can take the monk's unarmed combat ability as a feat; I'd let you.
I was referring to real life martial arts actually.
If "ki" is being dumped, and psionics replacing Ki, then, I guess I'm done with 4e.
GP
Over react much?
If true, that's too bad, since I've always considered psionics as optional rule system in previous editions. As a DM, I've never allowed psionics. I have always considered Ki, core to the game. If "ki" is being dumped, and psionics replacing Ki, then, I guess I'm done with 4e.
That idea is completely stupid, because I would never allow psionics in my game, but I still want monk, samurai, ninja...
GP
I always considered sprinkles to be an optional topping on desserts, and as a consumer I've never allowed them on my cupcakes. I have always considered frosting to be intrinsic to the whole cupcake experience, but if the local bakery is putting sprinkles on peoples cupcakes, then I guess I am done with cupckaes and from now on will be eating only pickled herring.
I wouldn't be surprised if some elements of Incarnum (from 3E) were put into 4E Psionics.
The only thing I liked about Incarnum was Totemist, and I would rather have Totemist make a return as an Elemental rewrite on The Binder(Elemental class that binds elemental creatures to items as a way to mimic them)
Over react much?
Yes, when I first posted that it was a bit of an over reaction. But the very next day, I recanted all that, and am now convinced Psionics works for 4e monk. So it nolonger applies. I am not happy that Ki is gone, but I understand it.
The problem at the time for me, was I spent a year developing a Japan-based setting and adventure arc for publication, when the decision to nix Ki, greatly affected work, or so I thought, until I placed a line in the Author's note - All references to Ki in the Kaidan setting, applies to the Psionic power source as per PH3, however is still called in Ki in the setting.
That made the problem go away, and nolonger a burden to my effort.
And this applies to Dirk Radhammer's post as well.
Go figure, someone might change their mind, about something they said in the past, I did.
GP
The only thing I liked about Incarnum was Totemist, and I would rather have Totemist make a return as an Elemental rewrite on The Binder(Elemental class that binds elemental creatures to items as a way to mimic them)
I don't think we'll see wholesale conversions of Incarnum classes, but I do feel that there's enough similarity between the concepts of Incarnum and Psionics that there might be some overlap. I don't have my books with my at the moment, but I seem to remember there being an Incarnum class which didn't wear armor or use weapons and magic items in the traditional sense; instead they channeled their inner power to create such things. (They used chakras IIRC.) I suppose it would be a more extreme version of a swordmage if you think about it that way; perhaps almost leaning in the direction of how Jedi use their powers for attack and defense. I could see something like that fitting into 4E's vision.
Well, IF Dark Sun is the 2010 setting, I would bet on psionic and elemental for the PHB3, since elemental clerics and psionics were a big part of Dark Sun.
Honestly, I don't understand how people think that Power Sources have anything to do with Campaign Settings. I mean, while Primal power was important in Eberron, it was by no means the CENTRAL part of the setting. Frankly, the biggest groups on Eberron tend to use either Arcane or Psionic power, making it odd (if you want to look at Power Sources and Campaign Settings as linked) that Primal beat Psionic to the gate.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if Eberron players have to wait for their Kalashtar Psions (or whatever they're called now) then Dark Sun players may have to wait for Elemental Priests.
Not that I'm against Elemental, I can't wait to see it. I just want people to stop making unprecidented connections between PHs and CSs. Thanks!
... Incidentally, whatever the next setting is, I want to find Incarnum there somewhere. Seriously ... that Power Source rocked my socks off.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
I was referring to real life martial arts actually.
So was I, partially. Joe-shmo with a green belt doesn't typically think they are a monk, and a monk would probably not refer to themselves as a "martial artist" (I don't know, the only Buddhists I know are not monks, though one is a martial artist).
The only reason there are spiritual aspects to eastern martial arts is because there are philosophical aspects to eastern martial arts. Philosophy and Religion have very close ties with each other, and I can affirmatively say this as a religious person myself.
Monks might not believe they are getting their power from a deity (which is why they aren't a divine class), but they sure as heck get their power from something more than the martial power source. Unless lifting weights can suddenly let me shoot fire ...
That Ki is dead is disappointing, but not a big surprise. The fact that only a few of the classes in the previous edition could be considered "Ki" while most would go into other power sources like Arcane and such was always in the forefront of consideration.
So lets see, the Shadow Striker can now be the Ninja. That other name can stay in PP and ED offerings.
Shadow controller is the Necromancer. He can use more powers than simple summoning, and might have Illusionist traits if that class is gone like some believe.
Now, before you say "dude, ninja fanboi WTF, hurf durf lulz", hear me out. I wanted the ninja to be Ki because that source has more combat possibilities than Shadow. With Shadow, it's just, "ooh, I cover in darkness". That's just not imaginative or original to me, and it only means the ninja's gonna be a damn assassin again. I HATE the ninja being defined purely as an assassin. To me, it's boring. I wanted it as Ki to allow speed boosts, flashes of light, lightning, small quakes, etc, etc, etc. That sort of thing. With the Shadow source, the ninja gets pigeonholed into that assassin-style role. If that's the case, I would more than happily have the ninja as psionic. In fact, I'm kind of hoping for it.
The only reason there are spiritual aspects to eastern martial arts is because there are philosophical aspects to eastern martial arts. Philosophy and Religion have very close ties with each other, and I can affirmatively say this as a religious person myself.
As a self Identifying philosopher and as a lover of both eastern martial-arts and fiction based on them, I can wholly agree with you from the other side of that relationship.
Now, before you say "dude, ninja fanboi WTF, hurf durf lulz", hear me out. I wanted the ninja to be Ki because that source has more combat possibilities than Shadow. With Shadow, it's just, "ooh, I cover in darkness". That's just not imaginative or original to me, and it only means the ninja's gonna be a damn assassin again. I HATE the ninja being defined purely as an assassin. To me, it's boring. I wanted it as Ki to allow speed boosts, flashes of light, lightning, small quakes, etc, etc, etc. That sort of thing. With the Shadow source, the ninja gets pigeonholed into that assassin-style role. If that's the case, I would more than happily have the ninja as psionic. In fact, I'm kind of hoping for it.
Reasonable points, though I think you're missing another concept that a shadow-ninja can fill, SPY. In fact, I would say that shadow lends itself more to spy than to assassin. Blending with shadows, teleporting through shadow; I expect the shadow ninja to be a highly mobile and equally stealthy class. They're more likely to get their assassin qualities from having the striker role than the shadow power source.
For the flashier elemental attack style ninja that you seem interested in there is presently the swordmage. There might even be room for a more ninja-like concept among the elemental power source, should it truly manage to survive as a power source. Though I think given the most common uses of the term ninja, that the actual name is more suited for a shadow class.
I don't want the "Assassin" stuff either. I really don't want a class named Assassin, any class can be such. (I have said as much in other threads)
To be frank, the rogue represents an excellent real-world version of the ninja. After all, who impresses you more with what they're able to do, Batman or Superman? For me, it always Batman because he relies on training and skill to get by, the very definition of Martial. Of course, that shouldn't close the door for a mystical version of the ninja, either.
Now, before you say "dude, ninja fanboi WTF, hurf durf lulz", hear me out. I wanted the ninja to be Ki because that source has more combat possibilities than Shadow. With Shadow, it's just, "ooh, I cover in darkness". That's just not imaginative or original to me, and it only means the ninja's gonna be a damn assassin again. I HATE the ninja being defined purely as an assassin. To me, it's boring. I wanted it as Ki to allow speed boosts, flashes of light, lightning, small quakes, etc, etc, etc. That sort of thing. With the Shadow source, the ninja gets pigeonholed into that assassin-style role. If that's the case, I would more than happily have the ninja as psionic. In fact, I'm kind of hoping for it.
I'm sorry, I'm sick and tired of Ninja fanboys. Just because you think Ninjas are more Interesting than any other Assassin concept you can come up with, does not mean that anyone would pick being a Ninja over an Assassin. I think it's very narrow minded and self centered to expect everyone else to flavor their various Assassin characters around some intrinsic Ninja archetype of the Shadow striker class.
When it comes to Classes, a gereral and vague default identity is more fun and easier on everyone. You may not like it because you would have to flavor Assassin as a Ninja, but it's really not that hard. It's a lot less fuss to add flavor to a blank canvas than to have to rework a strong identity like Ninja. (and don't say it's not a strong identity, because if it wasn't you would be happy with a Assassin class)
Why do you think it's called Fighter? because it doesn't get anymore vague than that, and thats the way it works best for everyone.
Ninja is the way to go on this, now that Ki is gone.
Dude, you have three different assassin PP's right now, and I don't doubt that more is on the way, but I wouldn't hold my breath for a full fledged class.
Ninja is the way to go on this, now that Ki is gone.
I don't care how many Assassin PPs there are, I'm not married to the name, but it's still a lot better than Ninja.
I don't want to be a Ninja! Ninjas have too much style and culture baggage.
I'm sorry, I'm sick and tired of Ninja fanboys. Just because you think Ninjas are more Interesting than any other Assassin concept you can come up with, does not mean that anyone would pick being a Ninja over an Assassin. I think it's very narrow minded and self centered to expect everyone else to flavor their various Assassin characters around some intrinsic Ninja archetype of the Shadow striker class.
When it comes to Classes, a gereral and vague default identity is more fun and easier on everyone. You may not like it because you would have to flavor Assassin as a Ninja, but it's really not that hard. It's a lot less fuss to add flavor to a blank canvas than to have to rework a strong identity like Ninja. (and don't say it's not a strong identity, because if it wasn't you would be happy with a Assassin class)
Why do you think it's called Fighter? because it doesn't get anymore vague than that, and thats the way it works best for everyone.
Did you read my post? You clearly didn't because I said I didn't want ninja to be defined as assassins. I never said there shouldn't be assassins or that the assassin class is bad; I'm just sick of ninja constantly being classified as assassins. I keep getting this feeling that the ninja will be put in as an assassin, since they did (and are able to do) so much more than kill someone in their sleep. In fact, they never really assassinated anyone, so it makes no sense to put them in that area. It's a broken record.
I guess you could say I'm still irritated about the million and one inaccuracies on Deadliest Warrior.
Honestly, I don't understand how people think that Power Sources have anything to do with Campaign Settings. I mean, while Primal power was important in Eberron, it was by no means the CENTRAL part of the setting. Frankly, the biggest groups on Eberron tend to use either Arcane or Psionic power, making it odd (if you want to look at Power Sources and Campaign Settings as linked) that Primal beat Psionic to the gate.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if Eberron players have to wait for their Kalashtar Psions (or whatever they're called now) then Dark Sun players may have to wait for Elemental Priests.
Except that Psionics really WAS central to Dark Sun because Arcane users were much rarer.
Did you read my post? You clearly didn't because I said I didn't want ninja to be defined as assassins. I never said there shouldn't be assassins or that the assassin class is bad; I'm just sick of ninja constantly being classified as assassins. I keep getting this feeling that the ninja will be put in as an assassin, since they did (and are able to do) so much more than kill someone in their sleep. In fact, they never really assassinated anyone, so it makes no sense to put them in that area. It's a broken record.
I guess you could say I'm still irritated about the million and one inaccuracies on Deadliest Warrior.
The point is that you are not willing to see that Ninjas are all around you; I think the Monk makes a great Ninja, Rogue makes a good Ninja, Swordmage makes a good Ninja, Assassin would make a good ninja and even Avenger is a decent Ninja. You say we need a Ninja class, I say thats a character concept not a class concept.
In fact, they never really assassinated anyone, so it makes no sense to put them in that area. It's a broken record.
Honestly, though I am certainly a fan of Japanese games, classes and history, there is no real evidence regarding ninja. Though they existed, they didn't keep records, nor allow others to record their activities. While it was known that Hatori Hanzo (your namesake) did perform ninja services for the early Tokugawa regime, nothing specific of what he had or had not done was even recorded by the Japanese.
Modern Ninjutsu is really a joke, kind of an implied this is what a Ninja could be. There are no true Ninjutsu schools anywhere, not even in Japan. Most modern practiced martial arts pales in comparison to the real martial arts from the feudal orient. Modern Kendo (katana styled sword play with rattan swords) is more of a dance and physical exercise, than true Japanese martial sword training.
To make a claim that ninjas did or did not do something, is really only a guess, and this is from a guy who has studied Japanese culture and history all my life as it is my heritage.
But I can almost agree that the Ninja was always considered a spy. Perhaps they killed targets, but in accidental combat, not as intentional assassination, as it is known in the west. But one can't claim this as a certainty. Only Western cultures ever practiced true assassination, until modern times. (I count Hashishi assassins in that same cultural group).
Another Ninja myth was that they wore those stupid black pajamas with their eyes peeking out from a mask. 16th century Kabuki theater introduced that idea. Wearers of the black pajamas were the stage handlers for props during a Kabuki play. In order for them to remain invisible to the audience, those black pajamas were worn to distinctualize themselves from the actors of the play. Anyone in black pajamas was a stage handler. When Kabuki plays wanted to show the "magic" of the ninja. One of the stage handlers would whip out a sword and attack a target - then the audience would realize, oh that guys a ninja, since he was "invisible" before. Ninjas wore whatever best disguise was appropriate for infiltration, never did they wear black pajamas - its hard to hide in a crowd when you're dressed like that.
GP
nor allow others to record their activities.
With one exception.
With one exception.
Yeah, I've seen this site before - lots more fluff than fact there as well.
GP
I'm going to guess that most fans know jack about the historical roots of the ninja and are looking for a version that mirrors what their vision of a "ninja" is as influenced by pop-culture. Whether historical ninja assassinated anyone is immaterial because the pop-culture ninja does and that what people will expect to see.
This.
Remember kids (said in jest, I'm only 25 and I'm sure many people in this thread are older than me), no matter what you might hear, real knights could not heal the sick by touching them or sheath their swords in holy radiant light. The Paladin is based off a fantastic interpretation of the chivalrous Knight, just like the Druid is based off a fantastic interpretation of "pagan" priests and the Wizard is based off ... well ... wizards.
Thus, in a game with dragons and wizards and mindflayers, I would prefer if the monk, ninja, samurai, knight, priest ... whatever! ... are based off of fantasy.
If you want a "realistic" ninja, then use the martial power source. Ki was dropped partially because simple Ki (as in things not involving shooting out fire or whatever) can fall into the Martial power source just fine. Heck, the rogue can even double jump for crying out loud!
But, D&D is a combat game. If you want to play a spy ninja who might occasionally poison someone or get into a fight, you probably want to play in a game that is a bit more focused on skills. Yes, you can do this with D&D (as soon as you are proficient in skill challenges; I'm still not), but then you have this pile of attack powers that are going to hardly be used. L5R or something else might better suit that sort of play.
If I play a class called "Ninja", I want it to be a wall running, cloud-of-shuriken throwing, ninja-magic using, teleporting bad-motha'-(Shut your mouth) the likes of Ryu Hayabusa and all my other favorite ninjas from fiction. I don't particularly want Naruto, but that's because they do not really seem like ninjas to me; But, some people do, and you bet a Ninja made in 2010 is going to support it.
Besides, in America D&D is published in English. I'm not being ethnocentric here, but as a native English speaker I have an easier time divorcing a class from any preconceived cultural ties if the name is in English. Monk means someone who lives in a monastery, so I am perfectly fine with it being used for a class. Samurai comes with too much, but if it were called Swordsage or Swordsaint or Dualist or something, I would have been fine with it. I could go on like this for a while, but I am not sure how many people really care; everyone seems fairly set in their opinions.
The point is that you are not willing to see that Ninjas are all around you; I think the Monk makes a great Ninja, Rogue makes a good Ninja, Swordmage makes a good Ninja, Assassin would make a good ninja and even Avenger is a decent Ninja. You say we need a Ninja class, I say thats a character concept not a class concept.
Seriously, why so harsh?
Also, what is it you really want out of an assassin that rogue can't already do. When it comes right down to it an assassin is just a killer. Any class can be a killer. Furthermore, I can't see WotC actually using the name assassin for a class due to negative associations. D&D is a game of HEROIC fantasy and assassin isn't really a heroic archetype.
I'm going to guess that most fans know jack about the historical roots of the ninja and are looking for a version that mirrors what their vision of a "ninja" is as influenced by pop-culture. Whether historical ninja assassinated anyone is immaterial because the pop-culture ninja does and that what people will expect to see.
This.
D&D is a fantasy game. Real world history might be an interesting aside, but its fantasy as presented in modern pop-culture that is much more relevant.
[Indent]Edit: Xeviat-DM, says it better. Except for his last paragraph, which I can't agree with, since for me words like ninja and samurai have been co-opted by the English language and now have meanings in English distinct from their original culture.[/Indent]
Oh, I'm a member of theCBG.org, myself!
GP
The point is that you are not willing to see that Ninjas are all around you; I think the Monk makes a great Ninja, Rogue makes a good Ninja, Swordmage makes a good Ninja, Assassin would make a good ninja and even Avenger is a decent Ninja. You say we need a Ninja class, I say thats a character concept not a class concept.
Are you filtering my posts? When did I ever say other classes couldn't be ninja? I said I DON'T WANT NINJA TO BE ASSASSINS!!!! That's it! Not "Monks can't be ninja", not "Avengers can't be ninja", or even "Bards can't be ninja" (though that might be stretching it a little
), merely, "don't want ninja being assassins". I've already said the rogue makes a great ninja.To be frank, the rogue represents an excellent real-world version of the ninja.
I rest my case.
The ranger could make a great ninja, too. In fact, the next character I'll be running is secretly a member of a ninja clan. He's a rogue, probably multiclassed into ranger (I might forego Master of the Wild a few levels because it's only level 3).
Also, just because I made a ninja class doesn't mean I'm the only one who did it or the first to say there should be a ninja class. I like the rogue, but Wizards was thinking about it before I was, especially since they mentioned Ki in the PHB. I'm still gonna use an Artful Dodger rogue as a ninja because they's mobile and quick, and I'm sure many people associate mobility and quickness with the ninja. Hell, in choosing between my ninja class and the rogue, I'll still take the rogue. If you're wondering why I made the class, it was because I wanted to give it a shot.
what is it you really want out of an assassin that rogue can't already do.
The same could be said about Ninja, or one could even ask the same about Shadow vs. Arcane, or Psionics vs. Arcane
When it comes right down to it an assassin is just a killer. Any class can be a killer.
When it comes right down to what exactly? thats like saying a Fighter is just someone who fights, any class can fight. I'm so tired of people getting hung up on the origins of a word, Assassin works because it's simple and not too specific, just like Fighter.
Any class can be a Ninja, so how is it any better?
Furthermore, I can't see WotC actually using the name assassin for a class due to negative associations.
An issue that the Shadow power source is going to have for most of it's classes.
D&D is a game of HEROIC fantasy and assassin isn't really a heroic archetype.
So now it's an archetype?
Are you filtering my posts? When did I ever say other classes couldn't be ninja? I said I DON'T WANT NINJA TO BE ASSASSINS!!!! That's it! Not "Monks can't be ninja", not "Avengers can't be ninja", or even "Bards can't be ninja" (though that might be stretching it a little ), merely, "don't want ninja being assassins". I've already said the rogue makes a great ninja.
Then why do you even think there will be a Ninja class?
Its pointless to argue that since class X can represent concept Y, that concept Y should not be made into its own class because the titles for all these classes are totally arbitrary. You can argue that a cleric/fighter makes the paladin unnecessary. You can say that a having a broadly powered wizard class makes it pointless to create other spell casters. Ranger and rogue could easily be rolled into one class. Its all totally arbitrary.
Yes, you can argue that other classes make the concept of ninja as class redundant, but you can say that about most of the classes in the game.
Any class can be a "fighter". Does that means that its pointless to have a fighter class? Any class can be a "rogue". Does that mean that there is no need for a rogue class? Any class be a "ninja". Does that mean that there should be no ninja class?
Its pointless to argue that since class X can represent concept Y, that concept Y should not be made into its own class because the titles for all these classes are totally arbitrary. You can argue that a cleric/fighter makes the paladin unnecessary. You can say that a having a broadly powered wizard class makes it pointless to create other spell casters. Ranger and rogue could easily be rolled into one class. Its all totally arbitrary.
Yes, you can argue that other classes make the concept of ninja as class redundant, but you can say that about most of the classes in the game.
Very much so, thank you Ghost. But in the case of Ninja getting it's own class, it would be just as redundant as Assassin but a lot less flexable identity wise, and that's really my whole problem with Ninja.
We should be talking about class concepts, not character concepts.
Except that Psionics really WAS central to Dark Sun because Arcane users were much rarer.
Well ... good. That's what I said, isn't it? You're going to get Psionics in time for Dark Sun whether or not it is next, but you might have to wait for Elemental.
... Pretty sure that's what I said.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
Shadowdancer, hopefully with a new name, should be the base class that way the Ninja PP can have the special ninja powers and not be underpowered for most of the ninja fans out there.
On another note, I think psionics will lose alot of the pseudo-science fluff of the previous editions.
Bel
On another note, I think psionics will lose alot of the pseudo-science fluff of the previous editions.
This is the one thing I really hope doesn't happen. A class here or there that doesn't is fine (like the Monk) but I really hope they have some classes, feats, paragon paths, etc. that keeps that flavour. It was one of the things that made Psionics what it is.
But in the case of Ninja getting it's own class, it would be just as redundant as Assassin but a lot less flexable identity wise, and that's really my whole problem with Ninja.
Ninja is only as inflexible as one chooses to make it. If one ties it to all the cultural baggage from its origin than yes it becomes too specific (though oddly also too broad) a category to function properly as a class. If, however, one starts from the concept of mystical shadow sneak there's no problem. At that point ninja becomes only a convenient name for that concept and a good one as it carries a lot of traction.
Assassin is another name with some nice traction, but that traction is almost exclusively associated with villains. Furthermore, what about the name assassin suggests the shadow power source. In its most typical modern use an assassin is just a sneaky killer, ROGUE. Its roots are somewhat mystical, but more in the direction of the divine power source, AVENGER. Shadow can be implied with the right kind of fluff but most of that would be the same kind of fluff that a non-culturally bound ninja would get, at which point it ninja seems the better choice for both wider audience appeal and lack of implied villainy.
Shadowdancer, hopefully with a new name, should be the base class that way the Ninja PP can have the special ninja powers and not be underpowered for most of the ninja fans out there.
Shadowdancer is actually a pretty good name. It avoids the cultural snags of ninja, but I feel its traction is a little to narrow. It just doesn't carry a lot of weight outside those that played previous editions. Ninja carries a lot more wide spread appeal and more importantly widespread recognition.
As for "special ninja powers", all classes now have " special powers from 1st level forewords, so I don't see that being a problem. Some people have over inflated expectation of what a ninja can do, but there are also people that think wizards should be omnipotent god the bend reality to their will. That doesn't mean low level wizard are unviable or undesirable, and that holds true for ninja. Shadowdancer on the other hand is derived from an old prestige class (forgive me if it's older than that, I never really played 1st/2nd), that implies the higher power of paragon tier.
Primal beat Psionic out the gates because more poeple like Barbarians and Druids than Psions and Psychic Warriors. Or at least that is my opinion of the matter.
So was I, partially. Joe-shmo with a green belt doesn't typically think they are a monk, and a monk would probably not refer to themselves as a "martial artist" (I don't know, the only Buddhists I know are not monks, though one is a martial artist).
The only reason there are spiritual aspects to eastern martial arts is because there are philosophical aspects to eastern martial arts. Philosophy and Religion have very close ties with each other, and I can affirmatively say this as a religious person myself.
Monks might not believe they are getting their power from a deity (which is why they aren't a divine class), but they sure as heck get their power from something more than the martial power source. Unless lifting weights can suddenly let me shoot fire ...
Sorry, but martial has always and will always be about finding new and interesting ways to punch people in the face.
Any philosophical or spiritual value that's placed on that is a delusion.
Any philosophical or spiritual value that's placed on that is a delusion.
Maybe, but since D&D is a fantasy RPG I say delusions go with the territory.
That said, I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of unarmed brawler/grappler build for a martial class, or maybe even a full blow brawler/grappler class.
Maybe, but since D&D is a fantasy RPG I say delusions go with the territory.
That said, I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of unarmed brawler/grappler build for a martial class, or maybe even a full blow brawler/grappler class.
I could see this as a possible Fighter build.
Hell of a way to mark an opponent.
I can see the game shop conversations now:
"Yeah...I'm playing a 12th level man-**** fighter from Martial Power 4...I went with a Goliath for the strength and con bonus...and I have a pair of +3 Bracers of Deliverance...it's pretty sweet"
As for ninja and assassin...
Ninja may appear, but may not be a full class. They could go as an MC class, a PP, or just a new build for an existing class. You have to make them a 'mystical ninja' to differentiate them from a rogue. I would see them more likely as a psionic class than shadow though. Shadow as a power source seems more about necrotic energies and shadow as a substance rather than generic stealh and sneaking around.
Assassin is already in Dragon, as an MC class. The devs seem to hold the view that an assassin is more of a job than a class archetype. They hint at a 'true assassin' and that points to a shadow class or PP with how they describe it. This could be the ninja of 4e, or another class and it may or may not have the Assassin name. The problem with calling it an Asassin (especially as a shadow class) is we already have the Shadow Assassin as a Rogue PP and that would cause a lot of confusion. It could be a Ninja, Shadowwalker, Shadow Dancer, Nightstalker, or something else and still be the 'true assassin'.
Ninja may appear, but may not be a full class. They could go as an MC class, a PP, or just a new build for an existing class. You have to make them a 'mystical ninja' to differentiate them from a rogue. I would see them more likely as a psionic class than shadow though. Shadow as a power source seems more about necrotic energies and shadow as a substance rather than generic stealh and sneaking around.
A psioninc ninja would probably to closely resemble the monk. In fact monks already make good psionic ninja in the same way that rogues already make good martial ninja.
You right that shadow isn't about generic sneakiness, but it's certainly about about more than necrotic energies. I see the shadow ninja being able to blend with shadows (invisibility) and move through shadows (teleport). I should also think that the class would have something resembling the ability to create shadowy doubles. I can also see the ninja as having the ability to partially slip through the shadowfell (gaining qualities such as intangibility and/or phasing while doing so).
The necromancer might be one shadow class, but another proposed shadow class was the illusionist. I see the ninja utilizing shadow more like that later.
Another class I hope they bring back is the shadowcaster. I loved the thematic fluff of this class even if I hated its mechanics (they were cool but way to under powered). I would be really disappointed if they do not bring back a workable version of this class.
mystical shadow sneak
Let's think of this in terms of Marketing.
Mystical shadow sneak; that right there is the class concept, that's gereraly what people are asking for, people call it different names like Ninja, Assassin, Shadowdancer and such but it really all one class concept.
So the best thing to do is make as many people as happy as possible, and if you go too far in one direction it's going to leave others behind.
Mystical shadow sneak is our concept, but thats all we want it to convey. yes Ninja conveys it but it also conveys other stuff like a whole culture and a whole style of doing things as well as another laguage and those are the kind of things players should get to choose to convey(what with it being impossible to choose to unconvey things). Assassin is too evil sounding, focuses too much on the killing and such. Shadowdancer is a little too fruity and obscure.
But we want to cram as many of those concepts into the class as we can. After all we don't want to repeat the issues of 3rd by haveing a class for every concept.
So we need a name that says "mystical shadow sneak" and nothing more, so that way the player can flavor it how ever they want.
You see the point is not to convey anything or to have "recognition"; because if it's recognized as a specific identity then it will be judged and preconcieved as such, and any other identity it could have will be left in the dust.
That's why we have ambiguous class names like Fighter and Rogue, do you think the word Fighter is recognized more than Samurai to people who don't play D&D? I bet not, and do think thats a bad thing? I bet not, so then why would it be bad if the "mystical shadow sneak" class was recognized less than Ninja?
The real question is why would there ever be Ninja class, when a class with a different name, a vague harmless name, would attract more players?
Now can we please stop talking about Ninjas before people start requesting a Pirate class.
Ummmm why? Have you ever seen Dragonball Z? Ki and Psionics are not the same thing. Psionics are the power of the mind, Ki is the substance that surrounds all living things, it's Chi basically. Ki to thin? I think it's the designers at WoTc whos brains and ideas are becoming to thin. Ki has so much potential, but once again WotC cops out and just shoves it with something else. These people continue to grow lamer by the minute.
How is a standard DBZ fighter NOT a crazy strong guy with Telekinesis?
They train hard to harness their internal "energy" that allows them to shatter mountains, fly, teleport, and lob blasts of force from their hands. They create force fields around themselves of mental energy to boot.
Ki IS Psionics. And any martial artist will tell you the same. Psionics is harnessing your mental energy to accomplish something. Ki is harnessing your mental energy to accomplish something. Look at Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. The people fly, can sustain incredible punishment, and hold off a deadly poison for hours through thinking. That's Psionics through and through.
Mystical shadow sneak is our concept, but thats all we want it to convey. yes Ninja conveys it but it also conveys other stuff like a whole culture and a whole style of doing things as well as another laguage and those are the kind of things players should get to choose to convey(what with it being impossible to choose to unconvey things).
I think you overestimating the cultural baggage of the word ninja. I think that for a lot of folks the term has become fairly genericized.
Take for example the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. They're a poor example of shadow sneaks, but a great example of how pop-culture has genericized the term ninja. The fact that they are technically trained in an eastern martial-art, while an important element, has little to no cultural effect. The characters are for the most part typical American teenagers, other than being sewer dwelling mutants that fight crime.
Other examples can be found all throughout various fictions. I've seen sneaky characters in sci-fi stories called space-ninjas without any other references ever being made to Japan. Heck the Transformers franchise has included a few characters that have had their official function listed as ninja, yet they are giant shape shifting robots from another planet.
Even on most internet message boards the term ninja is casually thrown about as a reference whenever two posters make effectively the same response in short succession (the first of the two being said to have ninja'd the second).
Like it or not ninja is becoming a term within the English language, which while still related to its Japanese roots, has its own distinct meanings as well and can be used without any need to be forcibly associated with any cultural baggage.
There is quite honestly no need for words like ninja to be any more culturally specific, within the bounds of a fantasy RPG, than words like druid.
PHB: 4 Martial Classes, 2 Divine Classes, 2 Arcane Classes
FRPG: 1 Arcane Class
Totals: 3A, 2D, 4M
2009:
PHB II: 4 Primal Classes, 2 Divine Classes, 2 Arcane Classes
EPG: 1 Arcane Class
Totals: 6A, 4D, 4M, 4Pr
My predictions for the future:
2010:
PHB III: 4 Psionic Classes, 2 Martial Classes, 2 Divine Classes
New PG: 1 Primal Class
Totals: 6A, 6D, 6M, 5Pr, 4Ps
2011:
PHB IV: 4 Shadow Classes, 2 Psionic Classes, 2 Arcane Classes
New PG: 1 Primal Class
Totals: 8A, 6D, 6M, 6Pr, 6Ps, 4S
2012:
PHB V: 4 Elemental Classes, 2 Shadow Classes, 2 Martial Classes
New PG: 1 Divine Class
Totals: 8A, 7D, 4E, 8M, 6Pr, 6Ps, 6S
2013:
PHB VI: 2 Elemental Classes, 2 Primal Classes, 2 Psionic Classes, 2 Shadow Classes
New PG: 1 Divine Class
Totals: 8A, 8D, 6E, 8M, 8Pr, 8Ps, 8S
2014: 5th Edition
2008:
PHB: 4 Martial Classes, 2 Divine Classes, 2 Arcane Classes
FRPG: 1 Arcane Class
Totals: 3A, 2D, 4M
2009:
PHB II: 4 Primal Classes, 2 Divine Classes, 2 Arcane Classes
EPG: 1 Arcane Class
Totals: 6A, 4D, 4M, 4Pr
My predictions for the future:
2010:
PHB III: 4 Psionic Classes, 2 Martial Classes, 2 Divine Classes
New PG: 1 Primal Class
Totals: 6A, 6D, 6M, 5Pr, 4Ps
2011:
PHB IV: 4 Shadow Classes, 2 Psionic Classes, 2 Arcane Classes
New PG: 1 Primal Class
Totals: 8A, 6D, 6M, 6Pr, 6Ps, 4S
2012:
PHB V: 4 Elemental Classes, 2 Shadow Classes, 2 Martial Classes
New PG: 1 Divine Class
Totals: 8A, 7D, 4E, 8M, 6Pr, 6Ps, 6S
2013:
PHB VI: 2 Elemental Classes, 2 Primal Classes, 2 Psionic Classes, 2 Shadow Classes
New PG: 1 Divine Class
Totals: 8A, 8D, 6E, 8M, 8Pr, 8Ps, 8S
2014: 5th Edition
I really don't think there will be more than 4 classes introduced per power source via the PHBs, PGs may add to the total, but I doubt any more thru the PHBs.
Bel
Here is a question: Do we really need a flood of a million different power sources just for the sake of having them? Does it really add anything to the game at all?
I don't think we need a whole bunch of power sources, but if the designers can come up with interesting, worthwhile, and [hopefully] unique class concepts for additional power sources that do add something to the game, then they should add them.
Power sources are an interesting concept that "organizes" fluff in a way that makes classes feel more distinct from one another. Arcane tends to totally blow that idea out.
It's kind of understandable though. If they'd altered Wizard any farther than they did, and didn't include recognizable equivalents of Sorcerer and Warlock, fanboi's would've exploded in a fit of terroristic nerd rage. Hopefully though, the next edition finally gives arcane its own schtick that's more focused instead of being a blanket for everything.
Now that I think about it...I'm not going to post anymore. I've already suggested what classes I would like to see in the PH3, so anything more would just derail the thread.
It's kind of understandable though. If they'd altered Wizard any farther than they did, and didn't include recognizable equivalents of Sorcerer and Warlock, fanboi's would've exploded in a fit of terroristic nerd rage. Hopefully though, the next edition finally gives arcane its own schtick that's more focused instead of being a blanket for everything.
I think you are just missing the point of Arcane; It's not like it's some little niche for you character to get into, it has no opposite or adjacent power source or even an equivalent. You call it a blanket over everything, well yeah, it's the fabric of the multiverse, it's gonna have it's foot in a few doors.
Like it or not ninja is becoming a term within the English language, which while still related to its Japanese roots, has its own distinct meanings as well and can be used without any need to be forcibly associated with any cultural baggage.
I have seen your examples, and not one of them is free of cultural baggage. TMNT has had a lot of Ninja culture within almost all of it's adaptations.
In both Transformers and TMNT the "Ninjas" do things like meditate, they both attach a lot of japanese sounding word to their specific way of life, they both talk about the "path of the Ninja", they both have a code of ethics, and neither of them are Shadow like at all. This just proves my point further, Ninja is just a character concept.
Do we need a specific ninja class. a. we already have the rogue b. you can always dress your monk up in black clothing c. I hate how overusage on the internet makes things lame; you could have a "ninja" but I certainly wouldn't let my player call it that
Shadowdancer is generic enough that you could make an effective ninja without other players who just want to play a regular shadowy stealth warrior feel their character is lessened by an internet fascination; IMO the word ninja is as watered down as the word lol.
Blackguard will most likely be the shadow defender since shadow doesn't necessarily mean evil.
Illusionist, highly unlikely, at least with that name, it detracts from already existing classes such as the feylock and the illusionist wizard by implying that they are lesser
for a shadow leader, I was thinking Animator, a class that uses the power of shadow to give life to inanimate objects, which could make a necromancer without the negative stigma
for the whole shadow fluff I was thinking it could be some kind of magic lost to time or otherwise forgotten
though id be perfectly happy with the following breakdown
psionic
psychic warrior defender
kineticist controllor
telepath leader
monk striker
shadow
hexblade defender
necromancer controllor
illusionist leader
ninja striker
though i think the elemantalists break down according to the following
water leader
air controllor
earth defender
fire striker
Wizard = studies incantations and 'mini rituals' to tap into magic, hence a spellbook
Warlock = makes pacts with various entitites or remnants of them to gain access to magical energy
Swordmage = a fighter who forgoes in depth combat training to pick up a bit of magical skill but not to the level of depth of the Wizard
Bard = taps into magic through the power of sound, both their voice and music
Sorcerer = via natural talent, bloodline, or accident they find a way to tap into magic directly without having to study archaic methods, make pacts with powerful entities and their remnants, or be musically inclined.
So when we look at new power sources like Psionic, Elemental, and Shadow we have to think not as much in how the powers manifest and if their damage types will be similar to other power sources, but in where the classes get their power from (hence Power Source) and what method they channel it or how they use that power.
The monk trains and studies and blends his mind with his body, much like a Paladin, Swordmage, Warden, or Barbarian blend the base martial abilities of the martial source with their respective power sources and therefore make them non-Martial.
Other psionic classes will have a common element of drawing their power from their own mind/soul rather than relying on tools and weapons (martial) or some outside source (arcane, divine, primal). How that internal power manifests could be very different for each class, much in the way the Arcane classes take very different routes to access their power source. We could see an illusionist class as psionic but it's not likely to be pure illusion but also other forms of mental control.
Shadow if it holds it's ties to the Shadowfell will combine elements of necrotic energy, and 'shadowstuff'. We will likely see a necromancer-type class, something that melds and travels via shadow and probably has necrotic damage attacks, a shadowshaper (illusionist-like) class that not only makes shadow phantoms but tangible very 'real' effects out of pure shadow and again doing a lot of necrotic damage.
Elemental we could see some sort of binder (elementals and demons), a blaster/striker class that tosses around raw elements as well as mixed blasts and maybe even untyped damage related to the pure destructive entropy of the Abyss. We could also see a zone controller whose powers relate to altering the elements of an area into something else rather than just create an element. We could get a summoner/leader who calls up elementals and demons.
Just remember power SOURCE doesn't equal damage type nor does it equal method of access. What power source means is quite literly where the power comes from, no matter how its gotten to or what form it takes when used.
I have seen your examples, and not one of them is free of cultural baggage. TMNT has had a lot of Ninja culture within almost all of it's adaptations.
Maybe in the more modern adaptation that is true, but that is to be expected with the rising popularity of anime. The old 80s cartoon had practically no ninja culture or foreign terminology, and most attempts to incorporate such were laughable jokes at best. Yet, for about a generation they were the most prevalent example of "ninja" in fictional media.
In both Transformers and TMNT the "Ninjas" do things like meditate, they both attach a lot of japanese sounding word to their specific way of life, they both talk about the "path of the Ninja", they both have a code of ethics, and neither of them are Shadow like at all. This just proves my point further, Ninja is just a character concept.
Meditation is not culturally specific (or even class specif). Japanese terminology has crept into the vocabulary of more recent fictions, but again that is thanks to the rise in popularity of anime. As for walking a path, the same could be said of almost any class. Does not a paladin walk "the path of a paladin"?
Yet there were ninja and ninja-like characters dating back to the original Transformers who never uttered a single Japanese-like syllable. Even as recently as Beast Wars, the character of Tarantulas was a ninja. The show might of focused more on him as a mad scientist, but he still showed off his ninja skill with more than the occasional stealth attack.
Lastly, I already stated that I wasn't providing examples of SHADOW ninja with my most recent examples, but rather giving examples of ninja without overtly present cultural baggage. Ninja might be more character concept than class concept, the fact that Rogues make good ninja is proof of that, but that doesn't mean that the name shouldn't be used for a suitable class, or that its use should have to convey any unnecessary cultural baggage. The only cultural baggage will be what WotC writes into the class (I trust the not too) and what the reader brings with them (which seems to be your problem).
In first edition, it was a very unbalanced class that was to powerful and slanted toward instant kills.
It was pushed back for Second Edition, and came out in a soft cover book as TSR flooded the market with tons of material.
It was a (NPC) evil PrC in the DM's guide that, in my mind, was mainly for higher level NPC's to surprise the group with.
So now, in this new edition, we have a few PP's out there and some articles in DDi that talk around the concept. So, here is my take on the whole thing.
Assassins, in a fantasy game such as this, are evil persons that kill for a living. It is assumed that they have skills beyond a mere 1st level character, and have either trained under a master/school, or survived long enough to learn from past mistakes.
Any class can be an Assassin if they had the will to kill simply for the want of gold. It doesn't take a separate class for this to happen.
It doesn't take much imagination to think of the next logical step after an Assassin class... Mercenary. Perhaps they will bring back an Adept class.
Ninja is the way to go here. An Assassin class is not needed.
There is nothing to see here... Move along... Move along...
Any class can be an Assassin if they had the will to kill simply for the want of gold. It doesn't take a separate class for this to happen.
Bob Salvatore has a fun story about this. In the Forgotten Realms, they killed off the god of murder and thus all the assassins had heart attacks. Bob Salvatore had an assassin character at the time, and it was Jeff Grub's job to tell Bob that he had to kill this character. They had a shouting match over the phone which basically amounted to "you have to kill him, because there are no assassins anymore" and Bob "saying I'm not gonna kill him". Finally, they both took a pause, and Bob asked for a specific explanation as to why his character needed to die. Jeff Grubb told him point blank that assassins were out, so none of the fiction could have them in it.
Which is when Bob Salvatore said, "He's not an assassin. He's a Fighter/Thief that kills people for money."
And he got to keep his character.
My point? We don't need an assassin class. we just need Hybrid rules so we can all make Fighter/Rogue classes. :D
My thoughts:
Do we need a specific ninja class. a. we already have the rogue b. you can always dress your monk up in black clothing c. I hate how overusage on the internet makes things lame; you could have a "ninja" but I certainly wouldn't let my player call it that
Shadowdancer is generic enough that you could make an effective ninja without other players who just want to play a regular shadowy stealth warrior feel their character is lessened by an internet fascination; IMO the word ninja is as watered down as the word lol.
I could see a shadowdancer.
Blackguard will most likely be the shadow defender since shadow doesn't necessarily mean evil.
But Blackguard does.
black⋅guard /ˈblægɑrd, -ərd, ˈblækˌgɑrd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [blag-ahrd, -erd, blak-gahrd] Show IPA
–noun 1. a low, contemptible person; scoundrel.
You may have heard it in TV shows, people calling some villainous character "blaggard". Well, that's how you pronounce Blackguard. Not Black-guard, blaggard.
Illusionist, highly unlikely, at least with that name, it detracts from already existing classes such as the feylock and the illusionist wizard by implying that they are lesser
I think we can all rule the Illusionist out now that we have Arcane Power and the Illusionist is a Wizard build.
2010:
PHB III: 4 Psionic Classes, 2 Martial Classes, 2 Divine Classes
New PG: 1 Primal Class
Totals: 6A, 6D, 6M, 5Pr, 4Ps
2011:
PHB IV: 4 Shadow Classes, 2 Psionic Classes, 2 Arcane Classes
New PG: 1 Primal Class
Totals: 8A, 6D, 6M, 6Pr, 6Ps, 4S
2012:
PHB V: 4 Elemental Classes, 2 Shadow Classes, 2 Martial Classes
New PG: 1 Divine Class
Totals: 8A, 7D, 4E, 8M, 6Pr, 6Ps, 6S
Ummm...about that. Martial, Arcane, Divine, and Primal are done, save for the Artificer coming in Eberron book, and any other campaign setting books that may add a new class.
No new martial classes, so no martial controller. The develpoers have said that the release of the _____Power book more or less signifies that they are done making new classes for that power source. Things might appear in a campaign setting, and new OPTIONS for those classes might come out but no new classes, so you might wanna revise your prediction calendar to include no new martial, arcane, divine, or primal.
Where do you get off expecting people to reflavor every aspect of their character because you're too lazy to flavorize a basic class concept as a Ninja. No other class has such a specific backround as a Ninja would, not everyone has such an open mind about what Ninjas are, and those people are not going to bother with a Ninja. And I don't care if you guys think some people are willing to work around the Ninja flavoring, I'm not worried about those who are willing to put up with an archetype being forced apon them, I'm more worried about why anyone of us should even have to do it in the first place. And if you don't think people are going to have preconcieved notions about ninja and have trouble getting around the stereotypes, then you don't know very many people in this country; I feel it's very disingenuous to pretend like Ninja is some kind of mix bag word that has no symbolism to it.
I can tell you don't actually believe in what your saying, because all you do is just throw out the word Ninja and expect us to know what the class would be like; well guess what, we all know exactly what you mean by that word, thanks to that one simple word the whole entire class has been explained to us. Have you ever heard of leaving it to the imagination? Believe it or not, some players actually would rather use creativity and thought to come up with a character concept more than just having some overused archtype handed to them.
Please don't bother responding to this unless you can actually explain how Ninja is a class concept for a Shadow Striker and not just a character concept.
You guys do realize that not everyone who might play a Shadow striker is going to want to be a Ninja, right?
While I don't necessarily disagree with the basic argument you're making, it occurs to me that you could replace every instance of the word 'ninja' in your post with 'paladin' and every instance of 'shadow striker' with 'divine defender' and the exact same arguments would still apply.
Yet WotC have managed to successfully recast the paladin as something other than an always-lawful-good faux-mediaeval-European pseudo-Christian knight class. If they can do it with the paladin, they can do it with the ninja.
Personally, I still don't like the word 'ninja'. But that's no reason not to have a class with that name. I don't like the word 'warden' and I'm not totally sold on 'warlord' either, but that doesn't mean I don't think those classes are cool, or that they don't bring something worthwhile to the game.
IMO, 'shadowdancer' is still the best name anyone has come up with for a shadow striker class. The only downside, IMO, is that it feels a little 'off' to have the power source name included in the class name. It would be like having an arcane class called the 'arcanist' or a divine fortune-telling class called a 'diviner'. The only other criticism I've seen of the name seems to be based on rather juvenile homophobia, TBH. Dancing is "fruity", eh? Really?
You guys do realize that not everyone who might play a Shadow striker is going to want to be a Ninja, right?
This can be said of all the power sources with one role out currently.
Where do you get off expecting people to reflavor every aspect of their character because you're too lazy to flavorize a basic class concept as a Ninja. No other class has such a specific backround as a Ninja would, not everyone has such an open mind about what Ninjas are, and those people are not going to bother with a Ninja.
You seem to assume that there will only ever be one Shadow Striker EVAR!!!! Which based on the fact that there are more strikers than any other role at the moment seems pretty short-sighted. Further there would be a large difference between the highly mobile, stealthy, light blade wielding fighter being suggested, and a equally hypothetical heavily armored debuffer, who's curses leave his enemies open for his necrotic magic and heavy blade to finish off. Both are strikers, both play very differently, both look different on paper.
[If] you don't think people are going to have preconcieved notions about ninja and have trouble getting around the stereotypes, then you don't know very many people in this country; I feel it's very disingenuous to pretend like Ninja is some kind of mix bag word that has no symbolism to it.
With the rising popularity of Naruto, yes, Ninja is becoming a mix bag word with no symbolism to it.
Please don't bother responding to this unless you can actually explain how Ninja is a class concept for a Shadow Striker and not just a character concept.
Can you explain how a Paladin is a class concept for a Divine Defender and not just a character concept? Or a Wizard? Rogue? The word Paladin used to be more specific than Ninja (representing a small group of knights), but is now being used as a Divinely inspired warrior tasked with protecting his lessers.
I could see a shadowdancer.
But Blackguard does.
black⋅guard /ˈblægɑrd, -ərd, ˈblækˌgɑrd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [blag-ahrd, -erd, blak-gahrd] Show IPA
–noun 1. a low, contemptible person; scoundrel.
You may have heard it in TV shows, people calling some villainous character "blaggard". Well, that's how you pronounce Blackguard. Not Black-guard, blaggard.
But you forget! Han Solo is most often considered a scoundrel, and that's why people like him; not necessarily evil. The Blackguard could have either striker secondary or controller secondary or some crazy class feature that let's it pull "cheap tricks"
i fully expect the elemental and shadow to become a single planar power source.
See my post on page 3 of this thread.
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Well, divine is essentially gods and the astral plane and related beings, so elemental might be tied to primordials and other elemental beings.
Very possible. It seems kind of boring to me, but it's very possible.
Some guy (I think he had a half-elf avatar, but I don't remember anything else about him) posted somewhere about a possibility for elemental. He (or maybe she) said that it might be just working with the basic parts of stuff and working with anything that already existed. I know he/she said this:
[Elemental characters] can't hurl a ball of fire, but they can make a group of arrows stand up and dance...
Whoever that was... if you can read this, that is an awesome idea.
-----
I have nothing to say about shadow. 'xcept that I like the illusionist idea.
-----
I like the idea of the Aberrant power source from the far realm. Time source. Incarnum sounds... okay... And, Dream source.
Personally, I still don't like the word 'ninja'. But that's no reason not to have a class with that name.
It is if you can come up with a better one.
I don't like the word 'warden' and I'm not totally sold on 'warlord' either, but that doesn't mean I don't think those classes are cool, or that they don't bring something worthwhile to the game.
I'm not saying that Ninja wouldn't bring worthwhile things to the game, I'm saying it's going to bring a few troubling things to the game, like it's name and all the stereotypes that come with it.
Yet WotC have managed to successfully recast the paladin as something other than an always-lawful-good faux-mediaeval-European pseudo-Christian knight class. If they can do it with the paladin, they can do it with the ninja.
But why should they even bother?
the highly mobile, stealthy, light blade wielding fighter being suggested
Whatever, you seem to understand thats the class we have been talking about; but you forgot dark mystic.
You guys do realize that not everyone who might play a highly mobile, stealthy, light blade wielding, dark mystic fighter is going to want to be a Ninja, right?
With the rising popularity of Naruto, yes, Ninja is becoming a mix bag word with no symbolism to it.
I have never seen Naruto, but I'm pretty sure if you were going to make a class for people who want to play as a Naruto Ninja, it would not be Shadow and it would not be one class. My guess is that they all just use different kinds of Psionics; so that's just one more reason why a Shadow Ninja class would make far less people happy than you think it would.
Can you explain how a Paladin is a class concept for a Divine Defender and not just a character concept? Or a Wizard? Rogue? The word Paladin used to be more specific than Ninja (representing a small group of knights), but is now being used as a Divinely inspired warrior tasked with protecting his lessers.
That was not done over night,, if you look back on the history of the Paladin class, it took decades and multible editions before people started seeing it as something else; it first started out very similar to it's origin and only became a vague overarching title just recently, in 3.5 they could only be lawful good still. The word Paladin has been used and abused so much in D&D for so long that it has evolved into something with very litttle identity.
Also:
Paladin.
Role: Defender. You are extremely durable, with high
hit points and the ability to wear the heaviest armor.
You can issue bold challenges to foes and compel
them to fight you rather than your allies.
Power Source: Divine. You are a divine warrior, a crusader
and protector of your faith.
Rogue.
Role: Striker. You dart in to attack, do massive damage,
and then retreat to safety. You do best when teamed
with a defender to flank enemies.
Power Source: Martial. Your talents depend on extensive
training and constant practice, innate skill, and
natural coordination.
Wizard.
Role: Controller. You exert control through magical
effects that cover large areas—sometimes hindering
foes, sometimes consuming them with fire.
Power Source: Arcane. You channel arcane forces
through extensive study, hidden knowledge, and
intricate preparation. To you, magic is an art form, an
expressive and powerful method by which you seek
to control the world around you.
So why not start now?
Because that was the old way of doing classes; 1st edition had a buttload of classes based on archetypes like Ninja, Pirate, Jester and Paladin, but as you can see only a few of them were able to survive the process of devolving into a batch of mechanics. Ninja has walked the same road that paladin has, and it never got as popular as Paladin because it held to it's roots.
So what would be the point of giving it another chance? Ninja has been an unpopluar class it's whole career, where as Paladin is now almost essential to the PH1. It would be easier on everyone to just come up with something new.
The Ninja has had since 1st edition to get it's act together, and still very few people want to play them as a core class.
So why not start now? If it too decades for nerds and their associations to get that highly Christian Holy Knight into something of a Generalized Divinely powered heavy armor defender of the faith, why not start with ninja? I don't see how that makes it any different.
Decades? Pffft. Quest for Glory 2 did it back in 1990. It just took D&D nearly 2 decades to catch up. :D
While they were sort of forced to include the paladin in the new edition for tradition's sake, the ninja is far, far more popular an archetype in contemporary culture. WotC seems dead-set on gaining new players with 4E and they will attract a lot more potential gamers with a "ninja" class that is nearly universally recognized as opposed to something called "paladin" which your average person on the street can't even identify.
The Paladin class is Just as old as the Ninja class. They started on the job at the same status, but Paladin kept getting promotions and Ninja stayed on the sidelines. If Ninjas was more popular than Paladin, then why isn't it one of all star classes of the PH1? Paladin didn't get where it is today, after being in the biz for just as long as the Ninja, because people felt sorry for it. It's more poplular than Ninja because it apeals to more people due to it's ignorable stereotype.
Explain to me how Paladin became a "tradition" and Ninja never took off even though you say it's a more popular archetype. I'll tell you what I think happened; the same thing that happened to all the all-star classes, they got more popular because of the very fact that they had a less recognizable archetype.
It's simple Darwinism; If a Ninja class could survive without the need for its cultural baggage, it would have.
The past thirtysome years have shown that Ninja is still not very good class concept, yet some of you still think WotC should keep trying to make one; well I'm pretty sure trying to sell D&D players another Ninja class is the same as beating a dead horse.
Star Trek: The Original Series? Wonderful, was going to have a 4th season, but got canceled. Star Wars - Episode I? Faulty, but led to movies that were better, plus the animated Clone Wars. The truth of the matter, good things are often damaged by how people perceive something. For example, some people load up the "Ninja" as some sort of restriction, for some reason being irritable about the cultural aspects. Yet, the best cure to that is to understand the subject material and use that to improve your perceptions.
Fact of the world, is that some ideas are popular and well-known, so it is important to describe them in a way people would recognize. D&D's very own Wizards, Fighters, Clerics, and Rogues are the most basic of these "niches" to make available in the game system. Other classes like the Monk, Ninja, and Barbarian go further to flavor them, adding mechanics and ideas for easy digestion. Anyone can say that Barbarians or Ninjas are insulting, but it is much harder to make something good out of a label. Say, the Rage system used by Barbarians, or the way Warlocks curse people.
I think Wizards needs and deserves the right to name their classes in a way that gets the general meaning across, because they make the classes fun and valuable for the game. D&D is a melting pot of cultures and ideas, so people who believe that the cultural connotations are a bad thing, did not think things out: By accepting races, cultures, and ideas of all kinds, D&D is allowing people of the world to play together and do so in ways that lets them play the role of someone different. Understanding comes through experience, so I feel D&D is doing a service for everyone who wishes to broaden their horizons.
Whatever, you seem to understand thats the class we have been talking about; but you forgot dark mystic.
I was being very general. I could have given a very large number of unique descriptors that not everyone would have agreed on, but could have still been "Shadow Striker" and "Ninja".
You guys do realize that not everyone who might play a highly mobile, stealthy, light blade wielding, dark mystic fighter is going to want to be a Ninja, right?
You do realize you can't please everyone? Some people are going to be vocal whiners anyway.
I have never seen Naruto, but I'm pretty sure if you were going to make a class for people who want to play as a Naruto Ninja, it would not be Shadow and it would not be one class. My guess is that they all just use different kinds of Psionics; so that's just one more reason why a Shadow Ninja class would make far less people happy than you think it would.
It really depends which character you look at. The title character would likely be a psionic character, as would many others. But there are a few of characters that aren't psionic at all. They would fall under Elemental or Shadow power sources better, there's even a couple Martial characters in the series proper. Though if you were going to try and write classes for them you'd end up with something like the Wizard or Shednuja (pardon my horrific spelling, but it's the class that had elemental specializations) with better combat stats.
I was being very general. I could have given a very large number of unique descriptors that not everyone would have agreed on, but could have still been "Shadow Striker" and "Ninja".
Which is exactly what I think we should be looking for in a class concept, very general.
You do realize you can't please everyone? Some people are going to be vocal whiners anyway.
So then we should never try to please anyone? I'm not really sure what your point is with this.
I don't think it's ok to half*** things just because some people are going to be disappointed anyways.
So what would be the point of giving it another chance? Ninja has been an unpopluar class it's whole career, where as Paladin is now almost essential to the PH1. It would be easier on everyone to just come up with something new.
Cite your evidence please, because it's been my understanding that ninja has always been a popular class. What's holding it back isn't popularity, it's the overly sensitive old school grognards who can't stand any non-Tolkienesk ideas intermingling with their preconceived notion that D&D should exclusively cater to medieval fantasy.
D&D is full of pseudo-European elements, no good reason not to mix in some pseudo-Asian elements also, as well as pseudo-African and pseudo-American elements as well. D&D shouldn't be bound by any one culture, but instead should be a melting pot. D&D has always drawn from all cultures, bring us Couatls, Ogre Mages (now called Oni), and even the mighty Tarrasque. Not even the most iconic of monsters, dragons, draw from only a single culture which is why the metallics have fish like features (gold dragons where even depicted as Chinese serpents in 2nd edition).
The Paladin class is Just as old as the Ninja class. They started on the job at the same status, but Paladin kept getting promotions and Ninja stayed on the sidelines. If Ninjas was more popular than Paladin, then why isn't it one of all star classes of the PH1? Paladin didn't get where it is today, after being in the biz for just as long as the Ninja, because people felt sorry for it. It's more poplular than Ninja because it apeals to more people due to it's ignorable stereotype.
Explain to me how Paladin became a "tradition" and Ninja never took off even though you say it's a more popular archetype. I'll tell you what I think happened; the same thing that happened to all the all-star classes, they got more popular because of the very fact that they had a less recognizable archetype.
It's simple Darwinism; If a Ninja class could survive without the need for its cultural baggage, it would have.
The past thirtysome years have shown that Ninja is still not very good class concept, yet some of you still think WotC should keep trying to make one; well I'm pretty sure trying to sell D&D players another Ninja class is the same as beating a dead horse.
Tharag hit most of the points i wanted to make.
The paladin is mostly there because it is a sacred cow and because a lot of people ***** and moan about DnD being western fantasy. Case in point: the monk didn't make it into the 2E core because of the complaining and there was all kinds of moaning about the monk showing up in 3E. Just look at the poor monk now, being relegated to material released 2 years after the basic set.
This is totally beside point i was actually making though. WotC is trying to attract more players and the ninja in infinitely more popular than the paladin in popular culture. Everyone from little kids to grandparents know what a ninja is but i bet most people who've never played a fantasy RPG will stare at you crosseyed if ask them what a "paladin" is. If WotC is trying to sell books, the ninja will do better than a lot of the other left field concepts they could put out as long as the mechanics are good.
D&D is full of pseudo-European elements, no good reason not to mix in some pseudo-Asian elements also, as well as pseudo-African and pseudo-American elements as well. D&D shouldn't be bound by any one culture, but instead should be a melting pot. D&D has always drawn from all cultures, bring us Couatls, Ogre Mages (now called Oni), and even the mighty Tarrasque. Not even the most iconic of monsters, dragons, draw from only a single culture which is why the metallics have fish like features (gold dragons where even depicted as Chinese serpents in 2nd edition).
Well that's true, I agree with that. But that's a whole nother issue.
Sight your evidence please,
The fact that Paladin made the 2nd, 3rd and 4th edition players handbooks and Ninja never made it to any of them.
it's been my understanding that ninja has always been a popular class.
Sight your evidence please.
The fact that Paladin made the 2nd, 3rd and 4th edition players handbooks and Ninja never made it to any of them.
As I said, that's because of stubborn grognards and the false perception that D&D should cater to western medieval fantasy. While those factors become less prevalent with each edition, they are still significant enough that D&D must usually start out supplicating them before being free to explore other cultures.
More importantly, appearing in the first PHB of an edition isn't always a matter of popularity, but of simplicity. It's important that the first batch of classes be generic enough to represent as wide an array of characters as possible. This is why so many concepts being proposed on these boards are seen as unnecessary, as WotC did a very good job of selecting and designing those first 8 classes. Yet they still caught a world of flack for not including long time favorites like the barbarian and the druid.
Now that so many basics are covered, it is only natural that future classes will feature some amount of overlap with the classes that came before them. Sometimes this will take the form of mixing aspects of two or more classes (blending them into a unified whole), other times it will take the form of exploring a singular aspect of an existent class and adding to it (twisting it into something new and unique).
Sight your evidence please.
How about the fact that despite being supposedly unpopular, according to you, the ninja keeps showing up in every edition.
Also, the class also becomes more culturally neutral and thus more uniquely D&D with each incarnation. It wouldn't surprise me if, like the paladin, the ninja is perfected this edition (if not there's always the next edition).
:P
4e is breaking that mold in two ways.
1) Everything printed is now considered core (as is everything put out online via DDi)
2) They've flat out stated that they want all classes to be culturally neutral and not pidgeonholed into a cultural stereotype. That's why the class concepts are broad, with minimal fluff, and don't have some cultural gimmick.
Even the monk has lost most of its Tibetan ascetic/Shaolin Kung-Fu Master feel and is now much more general as just being someone who disciplines their mind do push it past normal limits and because of their lifestyle they don't utilize 'martial' weapons so if they have to defend themselves (it is a dangerous world) they do so with their own body and their mental discipline. While in the real world that's mostly seen in parts of Asia there's no actual trappings of any Asian culture.
The can do that with the ninja should they choose. The only issue that ninja has over monk is that ninja is a word originating in a specific country. Monks are something that various cultures have had and its Europeans who called the ascetics and Shaolin 'monks' because their lifestyle matched that of Catholic monks in Europe at least in a general sense (isolated living, meditation, contemplation, various vows of sacrifice, etc.) if not in detail or a philiosophical/religious sense.
How about the fact that despite being supposedly unpopular, according to you, the ninja keeps showing up in every edition.
Ok so it beat out everything that wasn't good enough to be a class in every edition, that doe's not mean it's especially popular. I will note that it was never really it's own class in 2nd, it was a kit.
Also, the class also becomes more culturally neutral and thus more uniquely D&D with each incarnation. It wouldn't surprise me if, like the paladin, the ninja is perfected this edition (if not there's always the next edition).
I would imagine if WotC did make a Ninja class, it would be better than the one's before it at the very least.
Here's the thing that I don't get about you Ninja fanboys; you want them to make a Ninja class, eventhough the creation of a Ninja class would in very real way restrain and limit the concept of the Ninja. Archetypes are either classes or concepts, you can't have it both ways. When you make something into a class, it becomes somewhat of a technical term; it creates requirments to being a Ninja, Monks and Rogues could no long claim to be Ninjas unless they practiced the specific art of "Ninja magic". For example, a Rogue can call himself an entertainer, and in the real world we could call that a bard, but in D&D Bard has a much more specific meaning, so a Rogue entertainer who doesn't practice "Bardic magic" would be fine concept, but a Rogue bard who doesn't practice "Bardic magic" would just be a liar. The Ninja class would own the Ninja concept, thus screwing over all those Rogues and Monks who don't want to be Shadow mystics.
So ask yourselves, would you rather have Ninja be a free concept for any class, or a Class that brings specific qualifiers to the concept such as using Shadow magic. I say, for the sake of Ninjas everywhere, lets keep all our Ninjas shadow optional.
If you truly love Ninjas, you'll let them go.
Here's the thing that I don't get about you Ninja fanboys; you want them to make a Ninja class, eventhough the creation of a Ninja class would in very real way restrain and limit the concept of the Ninja. Archetypes are either classes or concepts, you can't have it both ways. When you make something into a class, it becomes somewhat of a technical term; it creates requirments to being a Ninja, Monks and Rogues could no long claim to be Ninjas unless they practiced the specific art of "Ninja magic". For example, a Rogue can call himself an entertainer, and in the real world we could call that a bard, but in D&D Bard has a much more specific meaning, so a Rogue entertainer who doesn't practice "Bardic magic" would be fine concept, but a Rogue bard who doesn't practice "Bardic magic" would just be a liar. The Ninja class would own the Ninja concept, thus screwing over all those Rogues and Monks who don't want to be Shadow mystics.
Sorry, but that's a needless restrictive view and already untrue. A character's class is just set of mechanics and need have no bearing on how they are seen by other character within the game.
- I can play any class as a noble crusader devoted to any deity of my choice and call him a paladin, even though there is a paladin class.
- I can play any class as a savage wildman and call myself a barbarian, even though there is a barbarian class.
- I can still play any class as a ninja, even after class by that name is released.
As an aside, I am presently playing a goliath "ranger", however, the class on my character sheet is barbarian. His mentor taught him to revere nature by watching all varieties of beasts and learning to mimic their movements, which is how I flavor his rages. There is nothing supernatural about how I portray him, no primal spirits, just dedicated observation and training.
Ok so it beat out everything that wasn't good enough to be a class in every edition, that doe's not mean it's especially popular. I will note that it was never really it's own class in 2nd, it was a kit.
Guess you didn't see the Complete Ninja's Handbook TSR put out. It had a full class written up in it: the Ninja.
Here's the thing that I don't get about you Ninja fanboys; you want them to make a Ninja class, eventhough the creation of a Ninja class would in very real way restrain and limit the concept of the Ninja. Archetypes are either classes or concepts, you can't have it both ways. When you make something into a class, it becomes somewhat of a technical term; it creates requirments to being a Ninja, Monks and Rogues could no long claim to be Ninjas unless they practiced the specific art of "Ninja magic". For example, a Rogue can call himself an entertainer, and in the real world we could call that a bard, but in D&D Bard has a much more specific meaning, so a Rogue entertainer who doesn't practice "Bardic magic" would be fine concept, but a Rogue bard who doesn't practice "Bardic magic" would just be a liar. The Ninja class would own the Ninja concept, thus screwing over all those Rogues and Monks who don't want to be Shadow mystics.
So we can't have a class that does "ninja magic" because it would cause already complete classes to be less able to fill parts of a shared concept?
So ask yourselves, would you rather have Ninja be a free concept for any class, or a Class that brings specific qualifiers to the concept such as using Shadow magic. I say, for the sake of Ninjas everywhere, lets keep all our Ninjas shadow optional.
So you think that the only characters that can be gladiators are the characters who take the Gladiator multiclass feats? The only characters who can make a deal with a devil is an Infernal Warlock?
If you truly love Ninjas, you'll let them go.
Funny thing is we don't have a hold on ninjas. We are trying to let them in and someone slammed the door on its hand and won't open the door up and finish letting them in.
So then we should never try to please anyone? I'm not really sure what your point is with this.
I don't think it's ok to half*** things just because some people are going to be disappointed anyways.
No my point is, that since you can't please every, do what you want. People are going to ***** anyway, ignore them.
Here's the thing that I don't get about you Ninja fanboys; you want them to make a Ninja class, eventhough the creation of a Ninja class would in very real way restrain and limit the concept of the Ninja. Archetypes are either classes or concepts, you can't have it both ways. When you make something into a class, it becomes somewhat of a technical term; it creates requirments to being a Ninja, Monks and Rogues could no long claim to be Ninjas unless they practiced the specific art of "Ninja magic". For example, a Rogue can call himself an entertainer, and in the real world we could call that a bard, but in D&D Bard has a much more specific meaning, so a Rogue entertainer who doesn't practice "Bardic magic" would be fine concept, but a Rogue bard who doesn't practice "Bardic magic" would just be a liar. The Ninja class would own the Ninja concept, thus screwing over all those Rogues and Monks who don't want to be Shadow mystics.
No it wouldn't. That's the same argument made by the detractors of 4e in general when class x was revealed to not be included in the first PHb. Before the Barbarian class was published you made yourself a fighter, yelled at people and charged into battle and then called yourself a barbarian. Even after the class came out. You can still, make yourself a fighter, yell at people and charge into battle and still call yourself a barbarian, the only people who might oppose you are people who think that the class title means something. It's at best a placemark to identify the skills and combat style of the class to people browsing through. After that the name really means nothing.
So you think that the only characters that can be gladiators are the characters who take the Gladiator multiclass feats?
There is no "Gladiator" multiclass feat, because there is no gladiator class because there is nothing to qualify them as different as fighters.
The only characters who can make a deal with a devil is an Infernal Warlock?
Make a deal with a devil for arcane power? Any class can do that, it all a matter of flavor; but in the world of D&D, those who make deals with devils for power are considered Infernal Warlocks regardless of whats on the character's sheet.
On the other hand, if making a deal with a devil for power is what qualifys you as an Infernal Warlock; then a character of the Warlock class who is flavored as never making any sort of pact would not be considered a warlock by the people within the D&D world.
And if being a Shadow mystic qualifys you as a Ninja, then anyone who is flavored as not using Shadow magic would not be considered a Ninja technically by NPCs.
No my point is, that since you can't please every, do what you want. People are going to ***** anyway, ignore them.
Ok then, I'm going to keep talking about how making a Ninja class is a bad idea, and you can ignore me.
You can flavor your Barbarian or Fighter as any other class you want and be considered to be of that class by it's peers, as long as the class concept is the same as your character concept.
If the party Rogue started calling himself a Cleric of Pelor for just simply worshiping Pelor, within the D&D world he would be a liar and an insult to all Clerics, because eventhough it's a game term it's also a term within the setting.
Sorry, but that's a needless restrictive view and already untrue. A character's class is just set of mechanics and need have no bearing on how they are seen by other character within the game.
- I can play any class as a noble crusader devoted to any deity of my choice and call him a paladin, even though there is a paladin class.
- I can play any class as a savage wildman and call myself a barbarian, even though there is a barbarian class.
- I can still play any class as a ninja, even after class by that name is released.
- I can play any class as a noble crusader devoted to any deity of my choice and call him a barbarian, but I don't think any NPCs are going to call me that.
- I can play any class as a savage wildman and call myself a Paladin, but no real Paladin is going to agree with that claim.
- I can still play any class as a ninja, even after class by that name is released, but nobody is the game world who is familar with real Ninjas are going to give me the time of day.
There is no "Gladiator" multiclass feat, because there is no gladiator class because there is nothing to qualify them as different as fighters.
While it's true there is no specific gladiator MC feat (just a bunch of feats and weapon mastery multiclass feats to make a gladiator), just because a class isn't a "real" class doesn't mean there won't be MC feats for it. See: Spellscar. I doubt it'll be the last of it's kind.
And whether the Ninja is a separate class, or a specific build for the Monk or Shadow Striker (Assassin), it is coming. It's as inevitable as people whining about it's existence.
While it's true there is no specific gladiator MC feat (just a bunch of feats and weapon mastery multiclass feats to make a gladiator), just because a class isn't a "real" class doesn't mean there won't be MC feats for it. See: Spellscar. I doubt it'll be the last of it's kind.
I'm not really seing your point, what are trying to say?
And whether the Ninja is a separate class, or a specific build for the Monk or Shadow Striker (Assassin), it is coming. It's as inevitable as people whining about it's existence.
It's existence is not a problem.
It already exists; it's a character concept covered by some classes. I would love to see a article on Ninjas to add to those classes to help them make better Ninjas.
I can play any class as a noble crusader devoted to any deity of my choice and call him a barbarian, but I don't think any NPCs are going to call me that.
A genasi bard NPC in my campaign would certainly refer to you as a "barbarian", probably adding the words "filthy" and "unwashed" as well. Largely due to you not being a genasi. ;)
If your character is from a barbarian tribe, then most NPCs will be quite happy to refer to you as a barbarian, regardless of your class. Classes are a mechanical contrivance to simplify and fairly delineate what individual characters can do. They don't actually exist as real entities within the fluff of the game world, even though there is often a degree of overlap between class names and titles used within the game world.
A character that calls himself a "cleric", meaning simply that he is part of a recognised religious order, might be (in mechanical class terms) a cleric, an invoker, an avenger, a warlord with a divine multiclass feat, or whatever. If he's an NPC, he might well not even have a class template.
I can play any class as a savage wildman and call myself a Paladin, but no real Paladin is going to agree with that claim.
My paladin of Melora profoundly disagrees.
I can still play any class as a ninja, even after class by that name is released, but nobody is the game world who is familar with real Ninjas are going to give me the time of day.
Maybe in your game world everyone regards classes as a real thing. I think that's very, very silly.
Maybe in your game world everyone regards classes as a real thing. I think that's very, very silly.
So then you must think Forgottten Realms is very, very silly. In FR the term Cleric is like the RL term Doctor, if you don't have the credentials then you don't get to call yourself that. The ordination and/or investiture that a Cleric must go through is not just something handed out to anyone who joins an order, they are earned by the few who dedicate themselves to the responsablities of undergoing them, and those few do not like their title being thrown around by people do didn't earn it the way themselves did.
If your character is from a barbarian tribe...
I would hope that being a Barbarian in the D&D world means more than that, otherwise it's a pretty racist term to give to a character class. In the D&D world, I like to think being a Barbarian has less to do with to whom you're born to and more about what you can do and how you do it.
So then you must think Forgottten Realms is very, very silly. In FR the term Cleric is like the RL term Doctor, if you don't have the credentials then you don't get to call yourself that. The ordination and/or investiture that a Cleric must go through is not just something handed out to anyone who joins an order, they are earned by the few who dedicate themselves to the responsablities of undergoing them, and those few do not like their title being thrown around by people do didn't earn it the way themselves did.
While for the most part I agree with you (namely b/c I detest the "ZOMG! NINJAS CANM KILL ANYTHING INSTANTLY! NOTHING CAN KILL A NINJA THEY ARE SOOO AWESOME!" fanbois).
But the link he quoted was to the point. For example, in L5R, characters of most classes with a high BAB were bushi of their clan and therefore "samurai" in terms of rank and station, even if they were fighters, rangers, or even barbarians (in terms of class features, L5R barbarians would be called "berserkers"). But call a samurai a barbarian and see how he reacts, any gaijin would be called "barbarians" regardless of class, and that's what to poster referred.
I would hope that being a Barbarian in the D&D world means more than that, otherwise it's a pretty racist term to give to a character class. In the D&D world, I like to think being a Barbarian has less to do with to whom you're born to and more about what you can do and how you do it.
Same thing applies here. For example, my 4e barbarian is a gnoll, and character-concept-wise, he is much like a ranger in terms of his venerence for nature, but the nature of his combat style (to call on the totem spirits of his tribe and borrow their power for a short time), makes him a barbarian in terms of class.
While for the most part I agree with you (namely b/c I detest the "ZOMG! NINJAS CANM KILL ANYTHING INSTANTLY! NOTHING CAN KILL A NINJA THEY ARE SOOO AWESOME!" fanbois).
I don't think anyone supporting the creation of a ninja and/or samurai classes in this thread has shown anywhere near that level of ridiculous fanaticism. We don't want ninjas because we think they are some kind of invincible uber killer. What we want are particular archetypes that are not fully represented by the present assortment of classes. We don't want those archetypes because we feel they are superior to the already available classes but because we feel that they are equal to the already available classes.
If anything it seems to me that those opposed to these concepts have shown far more elitist intolerance than the supporters.
So... if we do get a ninja class... does that mean they have to make a pirate class? :D
NO WAY, PIRATES SUCK!!!!!
Just kidding.
Actually, I wouldn't be particularly opposed to a pirate class. Though I personally can't come up with any particularly compelling unifying style that defines what it is to be a pirate that would translate into a set of class mechanics. Especially since the class would have to be capable of embodying the concept of pirate even in a campaign that never involves ships or the ocean.
Actually, I wouldn't be particularly opposed to a pirate class. Though I personally can't come up with any particularly compelling unifying style that defines what it is to be a pirate that would translate into a set of class mechanics. Especially since the class would have to be capable of embodying the concept of pirate even in a campaign that never involves ships or the ocean.
So... if we do get a ninja class... does that mean they have to make a pirate class? :D
I don't think that a pirate class would make too much sense, but something similar to the gladiator or assassin Dragon articles could probably work.
I don't think anyone supporting the creation of a ninja and/or samurai classes in this thread has shown anywhere near that level of ridiculous fanaticism. We don't want ninjas because we think they are some kind of invincible uber killer. What we want are particular archetypes that are not fully represented by the present assortment of classes. We don't want those archetypes because we feel they are superior to the already available classes but because we feel that they are equal to the already available classes.
Those "archetypes" tend to already exist in the whole "NINJAZ ARE TEH PWNZ0RZZ!!1!!" genre. Most fantasy ninja archetypes DO fall for those traps. The 3.5 ninja was more like a monk/rogue hybrid, and was LESS like the worst examples of its kind.
The best point that stands though, is that the ninja really IS too closely tied up in culture-specific baggage. A shadowdancer class I would not be opposed to, have someone play a shadowdancer in an Oriental campaign setting and call himself a ninja? Fine by me. Have a rogue in the same setting, even the same party ALSO say that he's a ninja? Also good. Those are character concepts that exist best as fluff. But a ninja class? It's WAY too specific.
As for other archetypes. Paladin has changed, especially in 4th edition to be a warrior-priest of any religion. This is a bit more broad than the "western code of knighthood warrior-priest" that it used to be. Ninja says "Japanese trained assasin, bound by his own code of honor". Our pop culture (ESPECIALLY gamer culture) is too oversaturated with ninja references to divorce the concept from the specific culture it comes from. Paladins weren't specific to one ethnic background, and thus the idea was more versatile.
It's the same thing with samurai like I said before. A character could have his class be fighter, ranger, or warlord, but fluff-wise be a samurai, because he is a bushi of his daimyo, and a landholding lord. The same thing with ninja. Do I object to a shadow-power source striker that uses stealth, light weapons, and shadow magic? No. Just PLEASE don't call it a ninja.
If anything it seems to me that those opposed to these concepts have shown far more elitist intolerance than the supporters.
Elitist intolerance? just because we're sick of trite, over-done sterotypes? that's elitist intolerance? So, by your logic, every drizzt rip-off, "I'm a good aligned drow rebelling against my evil homeworld, and I just happen to wield 2 scimitars" character is compelling and original and does not deserve ridicule and derision? Because it's the same thing. If you're not one of the ridiculous ninja fanboi people, then good on you. But there ARE people like that, and they are just as irritating as the endless parade of drizzt clones.
Ki is gone and I am pleased.
However everyone is now thinking that a lot of the other power sources will be on the chopping block and I think I have an idea about Wizards plan concerning this.
I think it literally has something to do with the powers' true sources.
Martial from training and physical exercise.
Psionics from mental training and exercise.
Divine from the astral sea.
Primal from the life of the Prime Material Plane.
Arcane from... the Feywild?
This would lead me to believe that:
Elemental from the Elemental Chaos.
Shadow from the Shadowfell.
All that seems to be occurring is that Wizards' is rebuilding the Great Wheel cosmogy but without the need for odd things like the planes of positive and negative energy.
I think that the chances are good that we shall still see Elemental and Shadow because they balance things out.
Ki was dropped, because it's not really a source, more of an interpretation of pre-existing ones, ie martail and psionic.
So then you must think Forgottten Realms is very, very silly. In FR the term Cleric is like the RL term Doctor, if you don't have the credentials then you don't get to call yourself that. The ordination and/or investiture that a Cleric must go through is not just something handed out to anyone who joins an order, they are earned by the few who dedicate themselves to the responsablities of undergoing them, and those few do not like their title being thrown around by people do didn't earn it the way themselves did.
I would hope that being a Barbarian in the D&D world means more than that, otherwise it's a pretty racist term to give to a character class. In the D&D world, I like to think being a Barbarian has less to do with to whom you're born to and more about what you can do and how you do it.
FR is very very silly, yes. Cleric is not a title like Doctor. Cleric is as general and meaningless as Pastor, Priest, Minister, or any other such pointless contrivance. They're all exactly the same thing with different words. All clergy in a church in D&D are clerics, but only the high-ranking or highly dedicated ones actually have powers.
Much as I hate to, I agree to a certain extent about the comment on Barbarians. But...ALMOST no one raised in a "civilized" village will take-up niether the methods, nor the label, of barbarian. Conversely, those born to barbarian tribes will next-to-never take up anything BUT a primal or perhaps elemental (whatever they are, whenever they come out) class' method or label. Sure, for PCs it's perfectly possible, but those barbarian NPCs encountered will almost universally come from barbaric tribes in savage lands. Guess the game is as you had feared...boo hoo.
As for ninja fans, there are certain things I don't want ninjas to bring back. I also don't want some plain-jane mundane ninja mostly because the rogue IS that already, period...and it's boring to make the distinction when you're no different than any other rogue. But, I don't want any Ninja Scroll or Naurto crap either. Much as I like both, it's not what I want in D&D. I think the 3.5 ninja was a good direction, and that with proper (albeit extensive) modification it could be a viable and unique class for 4e. But, it probably WOULD step on the rogue's toes, honestly. I don't really care though, as the coming PH3 seems to indicate that there's about to be a lot of toe-stepping in PHBs from now on anyway. I figure by PH5...martial will be completely invalidated as a power source.
One last thing...I'm no fan, because while I enjoy anime and many other things, they're just not important to me. You, however, strike me as an anti-fan...which to me is absolutely the same thing as a fan. Each side may be separate from one another...but it's still the same coin, and that's all that matters to me. Now, I'm going to go back to my own personal coin that I share with absolutely no one at all.
Cleric is not a title like Doctor. Cleric is as general and meaningless as Pastor, Priest, Minister, or any other such pointless contrivance. They're all exactly the same thing with different words. All clergy in a church in D&D are clerics, but only the high-ranking or highly dedicated ones actually have powers.
In regards to what setting?
In regards to what setting?
Period. I've seen nothing in any setting to indicate otherwise. And if it's true in FR, I couldn't care less. FR is to D&D what anime is to ninja and samurai and so on, IMO. Though, it is nice that FR is finally at least mildly interesting, thanks to 4e.
In regards to what setting?
In regards to most settings actually. Even FR talks about that. More so in 4e than previously as the gods have grown more distant since the Spellplague (more absorbed with the disruptions in the cosmos caused by the Spellplague and apparnetly more cut off from their followers).
Also the point is not all D&D temples and gods have 'clerics' at all. Ao doesn't in FR. In older edition many nature dieties had druid followers but not clerics (as in the PC class).
The novels kind of walked the line with this since they not only wanted to tell a story but also wanted to 'identify' the PCs by their equivalent PC class so naming conventions tend to match the game mechanics more than the world fluff when it comes to terms applied to PC classes at least.
Cleric for example is literally just a member of a clergy and could include lay members that work/live in the church/temple but have no ability to channel divine energy into a 'prayer' power. That's why in 4e they got away from having NPCs requiring PC classes and levels. The PC classes are just that: PC classes. Something for the player to define the capabilities of their character and be setting neutral. It's up to the player and DM to decide how the gameworld NPCs percieve the character and what they'd call them.
In regards to most settings actually. Even FR talks about that. More so in 4e than previously as the gods have grown more distant since the Spellplague (more absorbed with the disruptions in the cosmos caused by the Spellplague and apparnetly more cut off from their followers).
Also the point is not all D&D temples and gods have 'clerics' at all. Ao doesn't in FR. In older edition many nature dieties had druid followers but not clerics (as in the PC class).
The novels kind of walked the line with this since they not only wanted to tell a story but also wanted to 'identify' the PCs by their equivalent PC class so naming conventions tend to match the game mechanics more than the world fluff when it comes to terms applied to PC classes at least.
Cleric for example is literally just a member of a clergy and could include lay members that work/live in the church/temple but have no ability to channel divine energy into a 'prayer' power. That's why in 4e they got away from having NPCs requiring PC classes and levels. The PC classes are just that: PC classes. Something for the player to define the capabilities of their character and be setting neutral. It's up to the player and DM to decide how the gameworld NPCs percieve the character and what they'd call them.
Was there a point to any of that? It all makes sense, and is true, but I don't really see what your trying too say.
actually.
How do you know this?
How do you know this?
It's been discusssed in a variety of sources, many of them the CS settings info for the various campaign settings. Also talked about by devs in varous forums at various times. This covers a variety of editions from 1e up. Heck DL alone had at least one 'religion' that had 'clerics' that had absolutely no powers at all since they worshipped made up gods or no gods at all. That's why Goldmoon's appearance with real healing powers was such a big deal.
Actually, I wouldn't be particularly opposed to a pirate class. Though I personally can't come up with any particularly compelling unifying style that defines what it is to be a pirate that would translate into a set of class mechanics. Especially since the class would have to be capable of embodying the concept of pirate even in a campaign that never involves ships or the ocean.
I'd think that a pirate would just be an altered Rogue using a rapier or saber mixed with possession and wielding of single-fire pistols.
FR is very very silly, yes. Cleric is not a title like Doctor. Cleric is as general and meaningless as Pastor, Priest, Minister, or any other such pointless contrivance. They're all exactly the same thing with different words.
Goign waaaaay off-topic here... but i find this just a wee bit laughable. Saying those "meaningless contrivances" are all the same thing is like saying (to use your Doctor example) that it's pointless to call someone a Radiologist, Oncologist, Endocrinologist, Chemist or Biologist because they're all the same thing. (all doctors, although the chemist and bilogist may not have achieved the Dr. level) Or that a Corporal, Lieutenant, General, and Seargent are all "meaningless contrivances" because they're all the same thing (military members).
Yes, Cleric is a generic term, but the words you call "meaningless" are far from and all denote different ranks or responsibilities or are the same but different denominations.
Goign waaaaay off-topic here... but i find this just a wee bit laughable. Saying those "meaningless contrivances" are all the same thing is like saying (to use your Doctor example) that it's pointless to call someone a Radiologist, Oncologist, Endocrinologist, Chemist or Biologist because they're all the same thing. (all doctors, although the chemist and bilogist may not have achieved the Dr. level) Or that a Corporal, Lieutenant, General, and Seargent are all "meaningless contrivances" because they're all the same thing (military members).
Yes, Cleric is a generic term, but the words you call "meaningless" are far from and all denote different ranks or responsibilities or are the same but different denominations.
I didn't compare clerics to doctors, someone else did. I said they're nothing like doctors and THEN compared them to their closest counterparts in the real world. Take out magic, and the comparison is obvious...they're not healers or warriors of any sort without magic. Give said real-world counterparts magic and you end up with clerics. In which case, the things I stated ARE the same job with different names. But, that's my opinion, and to continue this discussion will only get the thread locked.
I don't want the thread to get locked, so I'll bail.
Give said real-world counterparts magic and you end up with clerics. In which case, the things I stated ARE the same job with different names.
No, they're still very different meanings. (They can all already be called clerics... as a matter of fact, they are all clerics...) They would be different jobs with the same capabilities (magically). It would be better to compare it to the term Doctor, which is a very generic term.
Class names are for Rollplaying.
Don't you mean that they are NOT for roleplaying, seeing how they're meaningless?
Why is this an issue?