First off, We need to define what the Ki power source is, and to do that we need to look at the poster boy of Ki classes, the Monk. A Monk is simply a mystical martial artist who fights with fists, feet, improvised weapons and farm tools. What is a mystical martial artist? A person who due to understanding of their own body and soul can perform acts that go beyond the natural (Martial) and verge on being supernatural (Arcane, Divine, Primal, etc). So Ki is the power source of Mystical Martial Artists
What Ki can do:
- Setting people on fire with an upper cut.
- Firing a blast of energy from your open palms.
- Charge a punch with electricity.
- Generating a cool battle aura that actually freezes things.
- Paralyzing someone with a light tap on the arm.
- Running on water and air through pure speed.
- Leaving an after image because you move so fast that the eyes of others can't keep up.
- Generating a shock wave that can cut things by slashing a sword.
- Shooting an arrow through a wall.
- Heal by properly redirecting a persons internal energy.
What Ki can not do:
- Meld and shape the physical manifestations of moral and ethical forces.
- Shape soul-energy into physical forms.
- Tap into the power of magical beasts.
So if your looking to play an Incarnate or Soulborn play a divine class; read their descriptions: they were clerics and paladins with new mechanics. Or if you want to play a Totemist play a primal class; the Warden would be perfect for what you want. Just don't think that any of these classes should be Ki just because a designer said that Ki classes draw power from the soul.
Note: Ki is not being the Asian power source does not mean classes such as the Samurai and Ninja will not appear in it. It just means that classes such as Taoist Priests, Miko, Wu-Jen, Onmyoji and Shugenja will not be in it.
I can't remember a thread that actually suggests the Incarnate as a Ki class - the usual sentiment is for Ki and Incarnum to be merged.
I actually like your definition of ki as mystical martial arts--be they eastern or western.
Personally, I hope the samurai doesn't make it in as a separate class, though I could see paragon paths for fighters, paladins, rangers, and similar classes to better represent the samurai concept. Samurai is one of those ideas that fits into extant classes, IMO.
I'm with you, ultimatecalibur. I think people are assigning Incarnum to Ki because they're just manically stacking 3e material into 4e wherever it can fit. I'd be pretty surprised if Incarnum even makes it to 4e.
Actually most people who I've seen putting Incarnum into Ki is because they don't want Ki to be the AZN power source. Seeing as how the basis of incarnum is to utilize the energy of souls and the basis of ki is to utilize the power of your soul, incarnum is the easiest thing to merg into the ki power source to accomplish that goal.
WotC will need a Ki power source that gives them enough conceptual space for 4-6 classes, each with 3-4 variants. If cribbing some Incarnum concepts helps with that, they're gonna do it.
I can't remember a thread that actually suggests the Incarnate as a Ki class - the usual sentiment is for Ki and Incarnum to be merged.
But what is there to crib from Incarnum?
The Totemist is about as Primal as they come. It doesn't matter what he used in previous editions. And the other two really lack an identity that can be easily separated from their mechanics, other than "guys who make their own magic items."
Personally, If incarnum returns in 4e I would like to see it do so as a series of hybrid power sources for PHB5 and beyond. A few examples being...
- Incarnate and Soulborn: Divine + Ki
- Totemist: Ki + Primal
- Necrocarnate: Ki + Shadow
While I find the arguments of those who suggest that incarnum should be folded into the Ki power source have some reasonable arguments, I can't agree with them. For me Ki is about harnessing the power of one's own inner soul power. Incarnum was about tapping into the ambient soul energy of the universe. However, since the Ki power source is still an undefined wild card my interpretation may be entirely off base. Should WotC decide that Ki and Incarnum should be the same thing in 4e I will most likely be willing to adjust my perspective.
Personally, If incarnum returns in 4e I would like to see it do so as a series of hybrid power sources for PHB5 and beyond. A few examples being...
- Incarnate and Soulborn: Divine + Ki
- Totemist: Ki + Primal
- Necrocarnate: Ki + Shadow
Your interpretation seems solid to me regarding both what Ki is going to be and what Incarnum was. However personally speaking when I suggest that Incarnum should be rolled into Ki, I think that it should be more of the ideas behind the mechanics then the flavor.....if that makes any sense to you.
To try to explain it better, what I mean is that there should be a class or two for ki that craft their own soul into forms similair to the melds from Magic of Incarnum. And perhaps a single class which is able to tap into the ambient soul energy of the universe, similair to how the Invoker channels the raw magic of the gods themselves. However I don't think that such a class would work well with melds.
氣 can literally mean 'air' or 'gas' or 'energy', and energy flows from all over, it's no more internal than kinetic energy (motion) is internal. And Qi can come from within as well as from the outside.
The practice of Feng Shui is about redirecting external Qi/Ki energy within a place, but generally a Feng Shui geomancer won't make a good character class though. Taking this into a fantasy world, there's a lot of room in Ki for Incarnum.
Players shouldn't be asked to accept that the guy who runs across the top of still water and punches you so hard your lungs come out, and the guy who channels the unborn souls of future babies into a snazzy hat, are somehow getting their abilities from the same place. They aren't.
"I know exactly what the Ki power source is because I have heard of one unrealeased class and have not heard anything about all the others, but I can assume that they are all exactly the same concept. Here is why Incarnum is not the thing I made up."
Ki is supposed to be the "Soul" power source. It is not the Mystical Martial Artist" source. It's seriously hilarious that you got your entire therory of what all the classes in the source will be because of one class that they said they would realease. Not only that, your theory also hinges on that single class being exactly how you personally picture it, even though you have never seen it. At the same time, you completely ignore the official line of what the source will be ("Classes that use the power of the Soul").
Because no one but martial artists harness the power of their souls.
I personally have no idea what Incarnum is. But if it works off of the power of the users soul, then it is a fit for the Ki power source.
Players shouldn't be asked to accept that the guy who runs across the top of still water and punches you so hard your lungs come out, and the guy who channels the unborn souls of future babies into a snazzy hat, are somehow getting their abilities from the same place. They aren't.
But they are getting it from the same place. The power of their Soul. How they use it is different.
The problem is that you and the OP went on the assumtion that the power source will be entirely defined not by it being "the power of the soul", but on ever class being wire-fu martial artists, simply because that is what you assume a single member of the source will be.
This is like if you saw the Ranger, and therefore declare that the Martial power source is the "Hunter" power source, and therefore the Fighter should not be lumped in with it, as it should clearly be placed in the "Clanky weapon user" power source.
Players shouldn't be asked to accept that the guy who runs across the top of still water and punches you so hard your lungs come out, and the guy who channels the unborn souls of future babies into a snazzy hat, are somehow getting their abilities from the same place. They aren't.
Yeah! This is just like saying that the guy who consorts with devils in order to send people into the flames of hell is getting his power from the same place as the guy who is singing in the middle of battle in order to inspire his allies on to greater glory! They aren't! That would mean that power sources are robust and diverse, and we all know that they are actually single concepts with no variation in them.
So, this thread can be boiled down to:
"I know exactly what the Ki power source is because I have heard of one unrealeased class and have not heard anything about all the others, but I can assume that they are all exactly the same concept. Here is why Incarnum is not the thing I made up."
Ki is supposed to be the "Soul" power source. It is not the Mystical Martial Artist" source. It's seriously hilarious that you got your entire therory of what all the classes in the source will be because of one class that they said they would realease. Not only that, your theory also hinges on that single class being exactly how you personally picture it, even though you have never seen it. At the same time, you completely ignore the official line of what the source will be ("Classes that use the power of the Soul").
Because no one but martial artists harness the power of their souls.
I personally have no idea what Incarnum is. But if it works off of the power of the users soul, then it is a fit for the Ki power source.
This argument is silly. It presumes that "ki" is defined solely by Wizards of the Coast, without reference to real world mythology or popular fantasy.
A "ki" class should be recognizably "ki." It shouldn't require some convoluted explanation of how "ki" isn't really "ki," but is actually something that encompasses the channeling of astral soulstuff into one's clothes.
This argument is silly. It presumes that "ki" is defined solely by Wizards of the Coast, without reference to real world mythology or popular fantasy.
A "ki" class should be recognizably "ki." It shouldn't require some convoluted explanation of how "ki" isn't really "ki," but is actually something that encompasses the channeling of astral soulstuff into one's clothes.
Hmmm, so wait 'ki' which is analogous to soul only in Chinese cannot be used to represent things which use 'soul' or some other form of 'inner spirit' as their power source only for cheap anime knock offs?
I think while note racist, the above comments are certainly narrow minded. After all you have a plethora of western concepts that are almost indentical to the actual Ki, like say Chutzpah or that-thing-the-French-used-to-charge-machine guns.
Limiting Ki to eastern tradition needlessly shoehorns them, and furthers stereotypes that there is something 'different' between us and them. Incarnum Do fit the Ki classes, if they make a return it will be a Ki power source, and I am willing to stake money on it.
Now, I didn't say that ki should be only asian. People keep saying that I'm saying that, but I'm not saying that.
I am, however, saying that Ki should be Ki and not "stuff we smushed into ki that no one would possibly recognize as ki unless we explicitly sit them down and explain that ki isn't really the ki they know, its some new thing we invented, and a lot of what we put into it has little or no correlation with real world mythology or popular fantasy encompassing ki."
That's where incarnum as ki power falls. No one, not even fans of incarnum from 3e, would possibly come up with the idea of incarnum as a form of ki energy on their own.
I do think its a little rough to get non asian themed classes into the ki power source. Its important that a power source be recognizably, well, itself, and ki tends to be found primarily in asian originated or asian themed source material. I think its doable- I just think that packing incarnum into ki in order to stop ki from being the asian power source is a terrible idea.
Thank you for barely not calling me a racist.
Now, I didn't say that ki should be only asian. People keep saying that I'm saying that, but I'm not saying that.
I am, however, saying that Ki should be Ki and not "stuff we smushed into ki that no one would possibly recognize as ki unless we explicitly sit them down and explain that ki isn't really the ki they know, its some new thing we invented, and a lot of what we put into it has little or no correlation with real world mythology or popular fantasy encompassing ki."
Thats the thing, the popular fantasy Ki IS pure Oriental in appearance its an Oriential word. It means literally 'Air' but figuratively is a concept that is identical to Soul. If we limit Ki to how it appears in popular fantasy, then we by nature pigeonhole Ki power source to Asian flavored classes. Which is at the least bigoted. After all, if we limit Psionic the same way, we are stating that soul knives and psychic warriors both Cannot exsist under 4E as neither one is encountered in popular fiction.
Me I would rather stick the vague concept of 'ki is soul' than pigeon hole ANY powersource to a racial style even if it is how that powersource is most commonly portrayed
.
That's where incarnum as ki power falls. No one, not even fans of incarnum from 3e, would possibly come up with the idea of incarnum as a form of ki energy on their own.
I do think its a little rough to get non asian themed classes into the ki power source. Its important that a power source be recognizably, well, itself, and ki tends to be found primarily in asian originated or asian themed source material. I think its doable- I just think that packing incarnum into ki in order to stop ki from being the asian power source is a terrible idea.
Incarnum - Uses the powers of its soul to do X
Shinobi (Mystic Ninja) - Uses the powers of its soul to do X
Mystic Monk - Uses the powers of its soul to do X.
While its a slight generalization its none the less true.
I kinda have a reply to that not something that big or anything, but if Incarnum WAS different from ki in 3.x, and they want it to be COMBINED now, wouldn't that imply they're NOT making it like 3.x? It's a change after all.
Anyhow, as I trust the designers to make it make sense at least a little bit, I wont be annoyed by anything like that really.
Like seriously, in game, if you wanna make swords from the souls of babies, and for some reason that class's power source is Lollipop, who cares? You're still doing what you wanna do.
other than feats and paragon paths and such, I dont think power source really effects all that much.
I would, however, like to hope that some elements of Incarnum get placed in Ki. Not the essentia mechanics directly or the fluff of using ambient soul energy, but what about an Incarnate or Soulborn that channels their own soul energy, like the Monk?
The Incarnate had that aura they could share with allies, for one thing, which would be a very good leader ability.
The Soulborn may be too much like the Paladin to warrant his own class, and the Totemist is almost definitely too much like the Warden.
The Soulmelds probably don't fit, and Essentia doesn't fit either, but the classes themselves are practically custom-fit for working with Ki (under the definition of Ki as the power source that uses Soul - I'm not going to get into discussing the specific definitions of the Kanji.)
I guess my real point is, yes, Incarnum as written doesn't fit into Ki probably. However, there's no reason that some of the classes from Incarnum (specifically the Incarnate and possibly the Soulborn) can't be reworked to fit into the Ki power source.
That said, I guess I fall somewhere in between. I don't want the incarnum classes back. I thought the concept was awesome, but the classes were stupid. On the other hand, I don't want Ki to just be "magical martial arts."
I want Ki to be soul magic. I don't care how that happens. Internal, external, future babies, whatever. But if its just martial arts, I will have to karate kick someone at WotC in the nut sack.
Of course, I wish the Ki striker was called anything but the Monk. The monastic stuff is now irrelevant to what the class really is, especially because I'd wager a good potion of the Ki classes will have similar backgrounds.
I don't really know what Ki is going to actually be. I just hope its recognizably "ki." If that means martial arts through and through, then fine. If it covers other areas, that's fine too, as long as they make sense. I can't think of anything off the top of my head that makes sense as "ki" other than martial arts, but I'm willing to listen to suggestion. Just not incarnum. I listened to that suggestion, but it was a lousy suggestion.
This is insane. You are calling it bigoted to correlate elements of asian mythology with other elements of asian mythology. Its like being angry that movies about vikings are also movies about swedes.
No I am calling it bigoted to regulate classes from the far east to Ki source saying no one else EVER uses internalized trainings to achieve things beyond the normal mien. Its kinda like forcing western european godly ideals onto the Divine Power.
If I was saying as you say, I would be opposed to the monk being Ki and I am not. I am opposed to anything non Oriental that uses soul power NOT being Ki, as that forces stereotypes. Which is what bigotry is about.
Sure, you can sig me.
I don't really know what Ki is going to actually be. I just hope its recognizably "ki." If that means martial arts through and through, then fine. If it covers other areas, that's fine too, as long as they make sense. I can't think of anything off the top of my head that makes sense as "ki" other than martial arts, but I'm willing to listen to suggestion. Just not incarnum. I listened to that suggestion, but it was a lousy suggestion.
This HERE is exact problem I am talking about, even Ki defined by the Japanese covers A LOT more ground then just martial arts, and is MUCH more analogous with spiritualism in the west. Its a narrow minded view to force Ki into 'martial arts'. Just as its narrow minded view to force Divinity into a leadership role or to force arcane into just book studying or to force martial into just meleers in heavy armor.
To take culture's spiritualism and dilute to 'fighting unarmed' is a joke.
No I am calling it bigoted to regulate classes from the far east to Ki source saying no one else EVER uses internalized trainings to achieve things beyond the normal mien. Its kinda like forcing western european godly ideals onto the Divine Power.
No, its more like you came around and insisted that the Divine Power source should cover animism, because its a religious kinda thing and we shouldn't typecast, and I argued in response that animism probably fits better under Primal, and you called me a bigot for not letting animism into the Divine power source. That would be a far better analogy.
This HERE is exact problem I am talking about, even Ki defined by the Japanese covers A LOT more ground then just martial arts, and is MUCH more analogous with spiritualism in the west. Its a narrow minded view to force Ki into 'martial arts'. Just as its narrow minded view to force Divinity into a leadership role or to force arcane into just book studying or to force martial into just meleers in heavy armor.
Its true that this shows exactly the problem in this thread. What's being shown, though, is that you have a reading comprehension problem.
I repeatedly and clearly state that I'm completely cool with the Ki power source covering more than martial arts as long as what it covers is actually Ki and not something else forced into the Ki power source like a round peg through a square hole.
You repeatedly and unclearly allege that this is bigotry.
Bigotry against... against soul energy, I guess.
The worst part about all of this is that, instead of me being a bigot, you're trying to colonize eastern mythology with western concepts. And, other than Incarnum and things that blatantly do not fit, I'm mostly cool with that. Which maybe makes both of us a bit bigoted, but in the opposite way that you think, and in a way you... probably won't understand.
No I am calling it bigoted to regulate classes from the far east to Ki source saying no one else EVER uses internalized trainings to achieve things beyond the normal mien. Its kinda like forcing western european godly ideals onto the Divine Power.
If I was saying as you say, I would be opposed to the monk being Ki and I am not. I am opposed to anything non Oriental that uses soul power NOT being Ki, as that forces stereotypes. Which is what bigotry is about.
Well in general, divine is looked unto like it's own element, the element holy. Or light. or, well, divine. Asian Divinity is elemental and stuff, so channeling elements is kinda arcane... not really your soul or whatever... I mean a good reference even is the sorcerer, as the power is from within himself. Whats his source? Arcane...
And if you're saying you are opposed to other types of soul-users not being ki... isnt that kinda a form of biggotry? Its like you're saying anything having to do with the soul HAS to be Ki, no exceptions. it's like forcing Asia on the east.
and really, that doesnt matter. Power sources DO generally vary from place to place.
Last time I checked though, there isn't an actual Asia or Europe in DnD, nor does being a monk say you have to be asian or anything like it... Of course images of monks and stuff are typically asian, well guess where the most monks are?
Not being a biggot or anything, just being realistic...
I for one dont give a crap what power source they're finally assigned, as long as they have effects that do what the class should do, they can get it from the lollipop source as I've stated earlier, so why is it so important to you of having it be Ki?
Last time I checked though, there isn't an actual Asia or Europe in DnD, nor does being a monk say you have to be asian or anything like it...
There were and still are analogues to these settings in Dnd, with Euro centric setting being the dominate one.
And the version of the monk presented is the archtypical Oriental version of the monk.
Of course images of monks and stuff are typically asian, well guess where the most monks are?
Asia if you go by demographics.
Western monk are a totally different thing entirely, even in archtype. ( Paladins are the western fighting monk in archtype.)
"Monks harness the power of their soul energy (or ki)"
Incarnum classes in 3.5 used soul energy differerntly. But as long as they are still using the power of souls, (theirs or others- Don't forget the contrast between Sorcerers, who have inborn talent, with Warlocks, who made a deal with the devil) I don't see a problem with them being in the Ki source.
So, my vote is to either switch the name to the Spirit power source and continue the more neutral Occidental feel, or keep the word "Ki" and acknowledge that the very choice of this particular word means that a decision is being made to keep the Oriental flavor of the power source.
than about some shaolin/kong fu guy
The Player's Handbook says:
"Monks harness the power of their soul energy (or ki)"
The people who are trying to shoe horn Incarnum into Ki are misparsing the word ki in this sentence. They are reading the sentence as if it said the following:
Monks harness the power of their ki.This ends up giving ki the definition of generic soul energy.
When it should be read as the following:
Monks harness the power of ki.This way gives the definition of ki being personal soul energy.
Incarnum classes in 3.5 used soul energy differerntly. But as long as they are still using the power of souls, (theirs or others- Don't forget the contrast between Sorcerers, who have inborn talent, with Warlocks, who made a deal with the devil) I don't see a problem with them being in the Ki source.
They may use a form of soul energy, but they are not using ki. The Arcane classes all cast spells. The way they learned how to cast spells(self taught (sorcerer), academically (swordmage or wizard), or from a powerful being (warlock)) and what those spells do may be different but in the end they all cast spells.
And why shouldn't there be classes that allow a guy to, say, use his ki to form a blade out of nothingness? I see nothing wrong with that being a ki-source class.
The psionic fans want to have a word with you.
They have pitchforks.
After all, if we limit Psionic the same way, we are stating that soul knives and psychic warriors both Cannot exsist under 4E as neither one is encountered in popular fiction.
Psylocke of the X-men (and other related works) would most likely qualify as a soulknife, and X-men is inarguably popular fiction.
The word ki originates from the Chinese character chi, which means breath, air, or energy. If the creators of the game were purely interested in this concept but not the Asian baggage, they would have changed the power source name. In English we have a Latin root word that means the EXACT same thing. The Latin spirare, which means breath, air, or energy, became the English word "spirit." We get many other pertinent words from this root, such as inspiration (a breath/energy that enters into us), expire (the leaving of the breath/energy from us), respiration (the return of the breath/energy to us), aspire (turning the breath/energy toward some goal). Also, this term naturally encompasses the western spiritualism that others have mentioned earlier.
So, my vote is to either switch the name to the Spirit power source and continue the more neutral Occidental feel, or keep the word "Ki" and acknowledge that the very choice of this particular word means that a decision is being made to keep the Oriental flavor of the power source.
But there already is a spirit power source, Primal. This discussion reminds me of the primal debates before we saw any of the classes. Then they surprised us with the world spirit concept.
I see them expanding the Ki concept in a similar way, much like the Force, which I see as more spirit than psychic, that only certain individuals can sense and shape using their own soul as an instrument. In this way you can have your air type source as air is all around you and have it produce effects like the soulblade, etc. You could even have it encompass not the souls of the unborn, but the souls(spirits) of the ancestors, as I see the pc races as having a different type of force.
Bel
I repeatedly and clearly state that I'm completely cool with the Ki power source covering more than martial arts as long as what it covers is actually Ki and not something else forced into the Ki power source like a round peg through a square hole.
And you've also stated that to you to you martial arts is ki. So you are creating a circular argument. What you consider as ki however, is not neccesarily what it is going to be.
The word ki originates from the Chinese character chi, which means breath, air, or energy. If the creators of the game were purely interested in this concept but not the Asian baggage, they would have changed the power source name. In English we have a Latin root word that means the EXACT same thing. The Latin spirare, which means breath, air, or energy, became the English word "spirit." We get many other pertinent words from this root, such as inspiration (a breath/energy that enters into us), expire (the leaving of the breath/energy from us), respiration (the return of the breath/energy to us), aspire (turning the breath/energy toward some goal). Also, this term naturally encompasses the western spiritualism that others have mentioned earlier.
So, my vote is to either switch the name to the Spirit power source and continue the more neutral Occidental feel, or keep the word "Ki" and acknowledge that the very choice of this particular word means that a decision is being made to keep the Oriental flavor of the power source.
Their choice of the word ki is hardly a recognition of the power source being "asian" flavored. They chose it, or at least they could have, simply because the word suggests the purpose of the power source without making it confusing. I mean few people would get it if they called it the spirare power source. And if they called it the spiritual power source then it would have created tremendous amounts of confusion with the divine power source.
The ki power source is one of the three internal power sources, each of which utilizes one of the three components of the body that make up a living sentient creature; the body, the soul,and the animus. As long as the person is utilizing their soul to create their effects, that person is utilizing the ki power source. Just as anyone who is utilizing the superhuman skill of their body created by constant training is using the martial power source. It doesn't matter if the martial character is using a dagger, a two hander, or a bow, they might not look identical but they are using the same power source.(Sorry I think I sopped responding to your post about halfway through, but I liked where I was going and I feel it flows best here)
The people who are trying to shoe horn Incarnum into Ki are misparsing the word ki in this sentence. They are reading the sentence as if it said the following:
They may use a form of soul energy, but they are not using ki. The Arcane classes all cast spells. The way they learned how to cast spells(self taught (sorcerer), academically (swordmage or wizard), or from a powerful being (warlock)) and what those spells do may be different but in the end they all cast spells.
In 3.X incarnum classes did utilize an external source of souls, but that doesn't mean that they have to in 4ed. Simply have them create similair effects using only their own soul. It is a slight fluff change that makes incarnum completely compatible with ki.
The psionic fans want to have a word with you.
They have pitchforks.
No they don't have pitchforks. I've been suggesting for months that the Soulknife should be a ki class and about the worst that I've gotten from the psionic fans is that the soulknife should never be seen as a class again. There really isn't too much resistance to the idea that I can see.
Psylocke of the X-men (and other related works) would most likely qualify as a soulknife, and X-men is inarguably popular fiction.
.....Kuwabara from YuYu Hakusho would also qualify as a soulknife. Although I think he fits the ki idea of them slightly more then the psionic one. :p
The ki power source is one of the three internal power sources, each of which utilizes one of the three components of the body that make up a living sentient creature; the body, the soul,and the animus. As long as the person is utilizing their soul to create their effects, that person is utilizing the ki power source. Just as anyone who is utilizing the superhuman skill of their body created by constant training is using the martial power source. It doesn't matter if the martial character is using a dagger, a two hander, or a bow, they might not look identical but they are using the same power source.(Sorry I think I sopped responding to your post about halfway through, but I liked where I was going and I feel it flows best here)
One of the 3 internal power sources? Where has a designer ever mentioned much less talked about that? The mind/body/soul<->psionic/martial/ki trinities and the planar<->power source links are all fanon justifications. Just because some people see a pattern does not mean that it was intentional put there.
In 3.X incarnum classes did utilize an external source of souls, but that doesn't mean that they have to in 4ed. Simply have them create similair effects using only their own soul. It is a slight fluff change that makes incarnum completely compatible with ki.
Ranadiel, have you ever actually read Magic of Incarnum and looked at the classes?
The Incarnate and Soulborn where just champions of the various 3.X alignments. They were even described as having similar archetypes to those of the Cleric and Paladin, just with different mechanics. In fact I would bet that the Soulborn and Incarnate were testbeds for the 4E Divine classes. Considering that alignments no longer mechanically exist are the archetypes these classes cover even necessary?
The Totemist draws all of its power from the souls of magical beasts. I don't know what that sounds like to you, but for me it sounds like a perfect example of a primal class. After they previewed the Warden, I compared the two classes, and immediately saw that they were based the same exact archetype.
On the other hand, Chakras could be folded into Ki, only they already exist in it! In fiction and some philosophies, the Chakras are the places where ki is created, shaped and controlled.
So considering all this, what does Incarnum have that Ki would gain if Incarnum was absorbed into it that Ki does not already have?
No they don't have pitchforks. I've been suggesting for months that the Soulknife should be a ki class and about the worst that I've gotten from the psionic fans is that the soulknife should never be seen as a class again. There really isn't too much resistance to the idea that I can see.
Psionics and Ki end up covering a lot of similar ground in modern fiction. Take the archetype of a warrior who pushes his body beyond natural human limits due to his own understanding of it. In western fiction his ability to do so would be attributed to having and using psychic powers, while in eastern fiction controlling ki would be the explanation.
Going of the information released about the Psionic power source I would not be surprised if the Enchanter, Empath, Psion and Wilder all ended up in the Psionic power source while the Soul Knife and Psychic Warrior ended up absorbed into the Ki power source.
.....Kuwabara from YuYu Hakusho would also qualify as a soulknife. Although I think he fits the ki idea of them slightly more then the psionic one. :p
I agree with you there, but then again he is a mystical martial artist who in the manga is externalizing his ki in the form of a sword.
One of the 3 internal power sources? Where has a designer ever mentioned much less talked about that? The mind/body/soul<->psionic/martial/ki trinities and the planar<->power source links are all fanon justifications. Just because some people see a pattern does not mean that it was intentional put there.
Well I got the three components of Body, Soul, and Animus from World and Monsters and Open Grave. I believe that martial being the power of one's own body is pretty well spelt out, and ki is referred to as the power of one's soul.......I mean I can sort of see an argument against my assertation that psionics come from the animus but that hardly is relevent to this discussion. So I guess you could argue with the number I said, but I'm not really sure why that is relevent. I mean I guess you could also disagree with my assertation that ki is from your own soul, but I thought that was part of your argument.
Ranadiel, have you ever actually read Magic of Incarnum and looked at the classes?
The Incarnate and Soulborn where just champions of the various 3.X alignments. They were even described as having similar archetypes to those of the Cleric and Paladin, just with different mechanics. In fact I would bet that the Soulborn and Incarnate were testbeds for the 4E Divine classes. Considering that alignments no longer mechanically exist are the archetypes these classes cover even necessary?
The Totemist draws all of its power from the souls of magical beasts. I don't know what that sounds like to you, but for me it sounds like a perfect example of a primal class. After they previewed the Warden, I compared the two classes, and immediately saw that they were based the same exact archetype.
On the other hand, Chakras could be folded into Ki, only they already exist in it! In fiction and some philosophies, the Chakras are the places where ki is created, shaped and controlled.
So considering all this, what does Incarnum have that Ki would gain if Incarnum was absorbed into it that Ki does not already have?
I read Magic of Incarnum a long time ago. I admit I've forgotten most of the little mechanical details about it. But I'm hardly arguing that they should make a new totemist, soulborn, or incarnate class(although I'm not opposed to reuing any of the names). I just think that the flavor of having people make temporary items out of spiritual energy(for the 4ed update their own spiritual energy) would be a good way to add some interesting diversity to the ki power source.
I agree with you there, but then again he is a mystical martial artist who in the manga is externalizing his ki in the form of a sword.
He's more of a street brawler than a martial artist. As I recall we almost never see him do any kind of actual training at least in the traditional sense of the word.:P Also they refer to him(and basically every other powered human in the world) as a psychic as I recall although that mioght have just been a poor translation.
One of the 3 internal power sources? Where has a designer ever mentioned much less talked about that? The mind/body/soul<->psionic/martial/ki trinities and the planar<->power source links are all fanon justifications. Just because some people see a pattern does not mean that it was intentional put there.
I don't really care about the main subject of this thread, it's all a lot of hot air as far as I'm concerned.
But how do you deny that the 5 "planar" power sources have links that are right there in the RAW? OK, nowhere do they lay out a big pattern in a diagram, but each individual power source of this type has been unequivocally correlated to a plane.
As for the other 3, 2 of those have the same level of verification. Only the body<=>martial link has not been made explicit.
Now I will give you that the assumption some seem to make since Open Grave introduced the "animus" concept that animus=mind is nowhere near being verified. Given the existing material it seems likely, but things may change with future publications.
I don't really care about the main subject of this thread, it's all a lot of hot air as far as I'm concerned.
But how do you deny that the 5 "planar" power sources have links that are right there in the RAW? OK, nowhere do they lay out a big pattern in a diagram, but each individual power source of this type has been unequivocally correlated to a plane.
They have not been "unequivocally" been correlated, this is especially true for Arcane and the Feywild. Most of Arcane's links to the Feywild are tenuous at best, and for each link Arcane has to the Feywild it has an equally strong link one or more other planes.
Divine and the Astral Sea isn't much better. The only reason they are linked is the fact that most but not all of the gods hang out there. If the gods where hanging out on another plane then people would be correlating Divine with that plane.
As for the other 3, 2 of those have the same level of verification. Only the body<=>martial link has not been made explicit.
My problem is not with the fact that some power sources can be linked to planes or concepts, but with people thinking that because they can be linked they have to be and that all power sources have a corresponding concept or planes.
If anything the Ki power source should be about harnessing internal energy(soul) to enhance your abilities(body) by understanding oneself(mind).
Now I will give you that the assumption some seem to make since Open Grave introduced the "animus" concept that animus=mind is nowhere near being verified. Given the existing material it seems likely, but things may change with future publications.
Animus was original talked about in Worlds and Monsters when the designers introduced a new 4th concept to help them explain undead better. Animus is the energy that allows things to move, Body is the physical form, Mind is what allows something to think and have intelligence, and a Soul is what allows something to have a personality.
Now I will give you that the assumption some seem to make since Open Grave introduced the "animus" concept that animus=mind is nowhere near being verified. Given the existing material it seems likely, but things may change with future publications.
Technically speaking, using the material present in Worlds and Monsters, the animus does not equal the mind. The mind is an aspect of the soul. However we also know that an exact copy of the mind present in the spirit is left behind in the animus when the body dies. So the mind is sort of the space shared between the soul and animus(which in and of itself is the binding point between the body and soul). However it is both easier and less confusing to just say that psionics simply come from the animus.:P
Animus was original talked about in Worlds and Monsters when the designers introduced a new 4th concept to help them explain undead better. Animus is the energy that allows things to move, Body is the physical form, Mind is what allows something to think and have intelligence, and a Soul is what allows something to have a personality.
It was the third component. Mind isn't one of the components discussed in Worlds and Monsters. Mind is an aspect of the soul that can manifest through the animus. It is not a independent component.
Well I got the three components of Body, Soul, and Animus from World and Monsters and Open Grave. I believe that martial being the power of one's own body is pretty well spelt out, and ki is referred to as the power of one's soul.......I mean I can sort of see an argument against my assertation that psionics come from the animus but that hardly is relevent to this discussion. So I guess you could argue with the number I said, but I'm not really sure why that is relevent. I mean I guess you could also disagree with my assertation that ki is from your own soul, but I thought that was part of your argument.
I think I answered this best in my response to Bolongo.
I read Magic of Incarnum a long time ago. I admit I've forgotten most of the little mechanical details about it. But I'm hardly arguing that they should make a new totemist, soulborn, or incarnate class(although I'm not opposed to reuing any of the names). I just think that the flavor of having people make temporary items out of spiritual energy(for the 4ed update their own spiritual energy) would be a good way to add some interesting diversity to the ki power source.
The thing that gets me is that people miss the fact that the idea of using ki to change the qualities of or form new real world objects already exists in fiction.
He's more of a street brawler than a martial artist. As I recall we almost never see him do any kind of actual training at least in the traditional sense of the word.:P
The difference between a street brawler and a (classically trained) martial artist is the same as the difference between a Sorcerer and a Wizard in 4e: One is self taught the other learned it from a teacher. Both street brawlers and "martial artists" are martial artists just like how both Sorcerers and Wizards are spellcasters.
Also they refer to him(and basically every other powered human in the world) as a psychic as I recall although that might have just been a poor translation.
It is sort of. A more technically accurate translation is "spiritually attuned." This is actually a pretty good example of the muddy dividing line between psychic/psionics and ki I was talking about.
Animus was original talked about in Worlds and Monsters when the designers introduced a new 4th concept to help them explain undead better. Animus is the energy that allows things to move, Body is the physical form, Mind is what allows something to think and have intelligence, and a Soul is what allows something to have a personality.
If this is still true from the developer's standpoint, then we have been arguing a mute point. Under this model Ki is synonymous with Animus, not with Soul. And if Incarnum is powered by the soul/personifying force, than it would not be of the same power source as Ki.
This jump, of course, is predicated on the debated conclusion that the power sources correlate to different planes and human/"worldly" aspects.
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Also they refer to him(and basically every other powered human in the world) as a psychic as I recall although that might have just been a poor translation.
Just to chime in on this one, the word most often used to refer to Yuuyuu Hakusho character's power is reiki. This word breaks down into rei-, which comes from the character that is typically translated as spiritual, and -ki, which is the topic of our whole debate. If you want look into the etymology of the rei character, to see its implications to the Japanese mind, we can. The traditional/pre-1910's version of the character photographically represented a pyre with offerings being burnt and the essence/ki floating up through the air to the clouds.
Because these concepts do not necessarily have a clean Western equivalent, the translator chose psychic.
It was the third component. Mind isn't one of the components discussed in Worlds and Monsters. Mind is an aspect of the soul that can manifest through the animus. It is not a independent component.
Ranadiel, we have already argued this before but I will say it again. The Mind is separate from the Body, Animus and Soul. Just because it was not mention in W&M does not mean it does not exist. Mindless and Minded undead have existed in D&D for a long time.
The thing that gets me is that people miss the fact that the idea of using ki to change the qualities of or form new real world objects already exists in fiction.
The what the heck are we arguing about?
The difference between a street brawler and a (classically trained) martial artist is the same as the difference between a Sorcerer and a Wizard in 4e: One is self taught the other learned it from a teacher. Both street brawlers and "martial artists" are martial artists just like how both Sorcerers and Wizards are spellcasters.
That was a tounge in cheek response, hence the :P .
If this is still true from the developer's standpoint, then we have been arguing a mute point. Under this model Ki is synonymous with Animus, not with Soul. And if Incarnum is powered by the soul/personifying force, than it would not be of the same power source as Ki.
This jump, of course, is predicated on the debated conclusion that the power sources correlate to different planes and human/"worldly" aspects.
Except that ki in D&D is defined as a person's soul energy.
monks harness the power of their soul energy (or ki)
Ranadiel, we have already argued this before but I will say it again. The Mind is separate from the Body, Animus and Soul. Just because it was not mention in W&M does not mean it does not exist. Mindless and Minded undead have existed in D&D for a long time.
No the mind is part of the soul. It is fairly well spelt out in Worlds and Monsters. The soul is the source of both sentience and consciousness. Undead that have "minds" but no souls are clearly stated in Worlds and Monsters as having a larger amounts of energy applied to their animus allowing them to recall memories from when they were living.
Last time I checked though, there isn't an actual Asia or Europe in DnD, nor does being a monk say you have to be asian or anything like it... Of course images of monks and stuff are typically asian, well guess where the most monks are?
Actually the catholic church boasts some million and half cloistered priests, another couple hundred thousand Jesuists and about a half million fransician monks. I don't know the numbers for hindu Akashics, but it too is probably higher than the number of Sho Lin monks. Oh and last time I checked there were a couple hundred thousand orthodox cenobites.
Not being a biggot or anything, just being realistic...
I for one dont give a crap what power source they're finally assigned, as long as they have effects that do what the class should do, they can get it from the lollipop source as I've stated earlier, so why is it so important to you of having it be Ki?
Because, if Ki is regulated to things of oriental feel, then its a narrow minded view point which is one of the things I most hope for in terms of change.
Wizards: Could you give us your definition of incarnum? Is it considered arcane, divine, psionic, a combination, or a new form of magic entirely?
JW: Incarnum is energy drawn from living, dead, and preincarnate souls. It is magic, but it doesn't fall into any of the above categories. Spellcasters of all sorts, as well as psionic manifesters and warlocks, can all make use of it with the proper training. In short, incarnum is not a type of magic -- it is a substance that people can learn to manipulate.
Wizards: What are the differences among the three new core classes, and between these classes and say, a wizard or sorcerer? Are these three classes arranged in a set in the same manner as the psion/psychic warrior/soulknife trio (that is, full user, partial user, and harnesser of power in unusual ways)? Will members of these new classes be eligible for other magic-using prestige classes, or are they restricted to incarnum-using prestige classes?
JW: Here are the three new core classes in a nutshell.
Incarnate: This powerful meldshaper embodies the precepts of good, evil, chaos, or law. (This one is a full user; think cleric.)
Soulborn: This meldshaper is a martial character who wields incarnum in the cause of one of the four extreme alignments. (A soulborn is a martial user; think paladin.)
Totemist: This meldshaper wields the energy of nature's souls, revering magical beasts as totem creatures and mimicking their powers. (This one is a full user; think druid.)
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20050909c
As presented in Magic of Incarnum, incarnum is misty, radiant blue energy made up of the souls of all beings -- living, dead, and even those yet unborn.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070808
Wotc: Why did Wizards of the Coast start out with expanding the martial power source? What other power sourcebooks are being planned; and, for that matter, what other power sources are being planned? (What, for instance, is the difference between the martial and ki power sources?)
RH: Starting with your parenthetical question and working backwards, the ki power source will have some very marked differences from the martial power source because there is a lot that can be done with the special effects and power flavors of martial arts movies that’s different from our current martial power source. But I’m not telling you now what the differences are going to be.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4spot/20081112a
I get two things from this.
First, the quote about Ki and the soul probably means that Ki energies comes from the soul, not that souls in some general cosmic "background soul radiation harnessable by meldshapers" sense are ki power.
Second, Incarnum is not and has not ever been related to anything remotely resembling Ki.
And from my own perspective, bring on Ki: The Wuxia Power Source. The way that WOTC should be avoiding making Ki: The Asian Power Source is just by accepting that Ki has long since entered into popular culture and popular fantasy, and by making classes that fit those popular, now universal archetypes. For example, a class that merges weapon mastery with The Matrix-style aesthetics.
Beyond that, applicants are welcome. But that's the thing about applicants: some get rejected.
I've got a hate on for Ki, largely because most people want it to be the dumping ground of all things AZN, and on the internet AZN is basically synonymous with OverPowered. Seriously, just look at one of the twenty dozen Katana threads (it's called a Bastard Sword, get over it) or peoples' idea of what the Ninja class should do (it's called a Rogue, get over it.)
Hell, at this point I'd say Li Mu Bai would be better represented as an Avenger. Lightly armored, highly mobile, spiritual swordsman?
Seriously, they need to do something along the lines of roll Incarnum into Ki else they'd be better off folding Monks into Divine, Primal, or Martial.
Ki means "soul," more or less, thus its explanation as such in the PHB. No further explanation was given there, and as such, we have more reason to beleive that Ki will be "AZN Martial" than Incarnum (because that was the latest word on it).
A power source must be broad. I'm not just talking big, I mean downright behemothic. Titanic. Gargantuan. Freakin-huge. They are not archetypes. They are portfolios, the things in which archetypes are filled and categorized.
So step back.
Let's say I presented you with a character. He shoots fire out of his hands. What power source does he use?
Primal? Using the spirits of fire within nature to hurl forth the essence of the flaming forest, the scorching desert sands. Arcane? Tapping into the essence of fire, speaking the words that bind the energy together. Elemental? Damn obvious, take fire, hurl fire. Divine? Channeling astral fire through your divine connection and throwing it forth. Martial? Yes, I said martial. Through speed and technique, perhaps you can generate so much friction that you literally ignite the air around you. Psi? Vibrate those air molecules, baby, vibrate them hard and fast. Shadow? Pluck the dissipating heat from the bodies of the dead, or hurl an illusion so very real that it scorches reality itself. Ki? Form your vital essence into a ball of energy, ignite, throw.
Okay, some of them are a stretch, and a damn ugly one at that. But here's the point. A certain set of actions, no more, no less do not define a source of power.
Power sources are the means by which you flavor your powers.
And sometimes, they overlap.
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I do not mean to sound offensive, OP, but your list of "What Ki can and cannot do" doesn't really define anything. I could call it Arcane, saying that all the attacks are spells, and the healing is just like the bard. Or I could call it primal, the wind and water pushing you along, the energies of the earth charging your strikes, the manipulation of the primal body to harm or heal. Or, if you give me enough tequila, I could call it all martial, just in the epic sense.
I support the inclusion of Incarnum in Ki, but not in the way you think. I don't want a bunch of people running around with their shiny objects molded out of souls, all with silly names and even worse fashion sense. Nor do I want every ki user to rely on the power of the color blue.
But I do want Ki to be the essence, the aura, the spirit of the world.
Arcane is All Magic, the connections between things, the energies, the manipulation of the laws of physics. Primal is the All Nature, the environments of the multiverse and all that exists within them. Psi is the All Mind, the thought and knowledge and workings of psyches of all things. Martial is the All Body, the prime essence of technique and physical mastery. Divine is the All Godly, the heavens and hells, morals and musings of all that is celestial. Shadow is the All Darkness, the unknown, the mysterious, the illusionary, even the unliving. And Ki could become the All Soul, the essense, the spirit of everything.
But the Essence has a Mind, within a Body, in an Environment full of Magic that stands between the Celestial and the Darkness.
So what's the point of this mad raving? Don't worry too much about what a power source does and does not due. Worry more about making sure that every power source is broad, flavorful, and fitting to the world, enriching the whole. One should not try to place martial arts monasteries in every world of the multiverse, just as one shouldn't try to make every arcane character use a spellbook, or every divine character require a specific deity, or primal casters to love forests. Instead, focus on how characters of different power sources approach their abilities, how they train, how they initiate, how they pass on their teachings, how their abilities reflect a portion of the greater world. How does a divine character's relationship with an external deity or belief flavor their abilities? What does the study of magic mean for learning, for further growth? What forces interests the primal spirit, and how do they connect to the rest of the world, for good or ill? How do different psionic concepts and ideas shape their powers?
A monk can use Ki. But Ki should be much, much more. Quit arguing about the powers. Find the Source.
Thats the thing, the popular fantasy Ki IS pure Oriental in appearance its an Oriential word. It means literally 'Air' but figuratively is a concept that is identical to Soul. If we limit Ki to how it appears in popular fantasy, then we by nature pigeonhole Ki power source to Asian flavored classes. Which is at the least bigoted. After all, if we limit Psionic the same way, we are stating that soul knives and psychic warriors both Cannot exsist under 4E as neither one is encountered in popular fiction.
Me I would rather stick the vague concept of 'ki is soul' than pigeon hole ANY powersource to a racial style even if it is how that powersource is most commonly portrayed
The Martial Power source is almost entirely inspired by European fantasy. Divine similarly by religion, and if you can call WoTC racist for releasing a power source inspired by the flavour of a particular culture's martial styles than certainly you can find something to complain about in the prejudice demonstrated in the way clerics and Paladins work. Of course, our clerics and paladins throw fire from their finger tips and fight demons for a living, but the flavour behind these much more closely matches a western concept then say, any of the Indian religions.
The fact of the matter is the concept of Ki, though it literally means air, is much more than that which I'm sure you well know. Literal meanings of words, especially translated from other languages can be misleading. Ki is a unique concept which, yes, applies to many things Asian and few things otherwise. While both Samurai and Ninjas can be created without any problems using just the fighter and the Rogue, I can also create almost ANY class out of ANY other class that share's the same role by adapting flavour and in a few cases minor mechanics changes.
Are they needed? Not strictly speaking, by neither is the invoker, or especially the sorcerer. They can both be created using classes which came before them, yet they will be coming out and add to the game.
Furthermore, most of the people complaining about it being racist really don't seem to understand what racism is. Sorry guys, but you don't.
You seem to mistake it for the oversensitivity of being politically correct (an easy thing to do, given western society's insane obsession with it). Does it separate Asian ideas from western ideas? Well, yes, yes it does - they are different. There's nothing wrong with this. We're not all the same and we don't all have the same ideas. If these were people we were forcing all into one place and segregating, sure I'd be ******. But we're not. What WoTC is doing with them is organization. If I want to develop a culture in my world with Asian similarities I don't want to have to for one buy 3 different books, or have to flip through them.
Furthermore, to me Incarnum just isn't an interesting or really, even a good enough concept to be worthy of inclusion in 4th edition. No offense to those who like incarnum, to each their own, but it just doesn't fill any void like most of the other classes do/could.
There's no such thing as magic, yet we don't see people going super-ranty-head-asplode over 'magic must be this, it can't be that, Arcane is the EURO power source blah blah blah ad nauseum'.
I cannot understand why people get so up in arms over something so utterly unimportant.
Evangelion pillages Christianity with no concern for the integrity of the original texts and they call it amazing. A westerner adopts and expands a chinese word and it's heresy? The Asians don't seem to think it's a big deal, so why should we?
Plus the double/triple meanings behind the characters isn't even remotely close to special. Just because the character for Ki means a bunch of things isn't any more significant than the thousands of other Chinese characters that also have two, three, or more, meanings.
And Primal draws analogues in Shinto, Druidism, Native American, and African religions. Heck, you could do a find/replace totem with loa and suddenly primal becomes hoodoo.
I just think its dumb to have a "ki" power source that means something that isn't recognizably "ki." What's the point of calling a class "ki" if it isn't actually? You could have called it something else. What was gained?
It doesn't make any real sense to put Incarnum under the Ki power source. The basic concept behind Incarnum was fairly weak. It really was little more than a halfhearted derivation of some of the ideas you see in Final Fantasy 7 and 8 which were mixed together with some random eastern mystic terms and a whole lot of flavor for the sake of justifying mechanics. Just about every strong, flavorful idea in the entire book has already been stolen for 4E already. The new classes of the Primal power source more closely resemble the Incarnum Totemist than the old Druid. And we are not going to see a return of the old Incarnum mechanics, either. Honestly, I am not really sure there is anything in Incarnum that even can be ported over to the Ki Power Source other than the basic idea of "glowy soul stuff", which Incarnum almost certainly already borrowed from the same pool of eastern pop culture than the Ki Power Source is most likely going to be rooted in.
Honestly, I don't see the point in trying to make the Ki power source "non-asian". I mean, I really don't want to see it be "Martial, except with Asian names", since that would really be pointless, but if it is actually based on ideas common to eastern philosophy and pop culture than they might as well just give it a dose of asian flavor. The power source already has a Japanese name, so why try to pretend that it is not rooted in asian culture?
Really, it is not like giving basing Ki classes on Japanese or Chinese archetypes is going to limit their usefulness in the game. I doubt many people would let the French name and generally European flavor of the Paladin get in the way of letting a player in an Asian-themed campaign play an armored warrior devoted to the gods, so I don't see why the reverse would be a problem.
I just want a version of ki where barehanded fighters can cause things to explode with a punch, swordsmen can release energy shockwaves from their swords, and archers can turn their arrows into crackling bolts of light. I really don't think that is too much to ask.
Personally I feel there is a lot of crossover between the flavors of the Ki and Psion power sources. Those two being rolled in together would work for me. The meaning of psyche that lead into the term psionics has a very similar meaning to Ki/Chi. This would be the power source of internal mastery and enlightenment, leading to control over the self and finally the world around you. This could be adaptable to Western, South Asian and Far Eastern mysticism. With this I would propose Psychic as a leader with Empath and Precognition builds. Monk as the defender with Weapon Master (I like my big sword and sohei monks too!) and Unarmed. I would prefer a different name but Martial Artist sounds connected to Martial. Psion as the striker with Psychokinesis and Psiblade builds. Mystic as the controller with things like Numerology and True Name builds. Obviously room for tweaking to taste but just how I would like to see it.
Honestly? If it's the Oriental power source, I would expect something like this:
Monk - Ki Striker
Samurai - Ki Defender
Shugenja - Leader
Wu Jen - Controller
However, I personally would rather they refluffed/changed the Incarnum classes to put them into Ki, so that Shugenja and Wu Jen can go where I think they should be - the Elemental power source. This might look like this:
Ki
Monk - Striker
Samurai - Defender
Soulborn (possibly renamed) - Defender
Incarnate (also possibly renamed) - Leader
Elemental
Shugenja - Leader
Wu Jen - Controller
Unknown
Unknown
This leaves Ki, like Martial, without a controller. I also can't think of any possible names for other Elemental classes.
Honestly? If it's the Oriental power source, I would expect something like this:
Monk - Ki Striker
Samurai - Ki Defender
Shugenja - Leader
Wu Jen - Controller
My bet is on:
Monk (Striker) [Obviously]
Wuxia, Xiake, or Sohei (Defender) [I'm really hoping they don't use Samurai, as they are basically just fighters or rangers]
Avatar (Either Controller or Leader) [Yes, like the cartoon]
Geomancer (The other, either Leader or Controller) [Feng Shui style]
A bunch of humans running about, arguing with everyone about Dwarven rights, calling people speciest (like racist, but against non-humans), arguing about the definition of lengths, etc...
The Dwarves, meanwhile, are busy working instead.
We stand here, fighting about what's acceptable applications of Ki, acceptable powers for martial artists, etc.
Meanwhile, Asian authors are busy making "Kung Fu Hustle", "Bleach", "Naruto", "Streetfighter", and about a billion other things where Ki/Chi/Qi/Aardvark/Che/Qui/Channukkah can be used for everything from flying, to shooting laserbeams, to repairing wooden chairs, to spontainous regeneration and cloning...
Sooo, yeah.
My bet is on:
Monk (Striker) [Obviously]
Wuxia, Xiake, or Sohei (Defender) [I'm really hoping they don't use Samurai, as they are basically just fighters or rangers]
Avatar (Either Controller or Leader) [Yes, like the cartoon]
Geomancer (The other, either Leader or Controller) [Feng Shui style]
I'd say that's pretty close to the mark. Most of the ki classes will likely be lightly armored (with boosts to AC where appropriate) and mobile. My picks would be:
Monk (Ki Striker): The mystical martial artist. Uses either a more offensive STR/WIS or a defensive DEX/WIS build.
Sohei/Wuxia/Samurai (Ki Defender): The mystical swordsman or weaponmaster who infuses ki into his attacks to produce powerful techniques (A armored, mundane Samurai would probably be Martial). Will probably use STR, DEX, and CHA.
Geomancer/Channeler/Incarnate (Ki Leader): A channeler of soul energy that draws energy from the environment and enemies and channels it into allies (feng shui and the like). Not sure what stats this would use.
Ninja (Ki Controller or Ki Striker): Some will argue that a rogue can already represent a ninja well enough, and a ninja-themed paragon path would be sufficient. Therefore, this would be an outright mystical ninja, channeling his ki to use "ninja magic" and disappear from view. Stats may include DEX/INT and DEX/WIS.
An Avatar-inspired class is a good idea, but I think it would probably be Elemental instead of Ki. Perhaps a future Elemental Striker class may resemble something like this.
Wuxia, Xiake, or Sohei (Defender) [I'm really hoping they don't use Samurai, as they are basically just fighters or rangers]
I have to step in here and once again bring up the point that fighter (and to a lesser extent rangers) makes a reasonable stand-in while there is no samurai class, however, samurai are more then just Japanese fighters. Saying that samurai should just be a fighter with different flavor is the same as saying that PALADINS are just fighters with different flavor.
Historically samurai may have only been skilled swordsmen, but historically paladins were just knights in service to the church. D&D is not historical. Paladins get to channel the power of divine faith to smite the enemies of their god. So I don't see any problem with samurai being mystical warriors who train with a particular weapon (not necessarily a katana) until they are as one with it and the weapon has essentially become an extension of their own soul.[/rant]
I have to step in here and once again bring up the point that fighter (and to a lesser extent rangers) makes a reasonable stand-in while there is no samurai class, however, samurai are more then just Japanese fighters. Saying that samurai should just be a fighter with different flavor is the same as saying that PALADINS are just fighters with different flavor.
Historically samurai may have only been skilled swordsmen, but historically paladins were just knights in service to the church. D&D is not historical. Paladins get to channel the power of divine faith to smite the enemies of their god. So I don't see any problem with samurai being mystical warriors who train with a particular weapon (not necessarily a katana) until they are as one with it and the weapon has essentially become an extension of their own soul.[/rant]
Just to step in, on a historical basis:
Paladins as presented by PHB most closely resemble the warrior-monks, who DID have mystical elements ascribed to them not unlike the class. (Mostly the Templars, but all three of the big organizations (Templars, Hospitalars, and Teutonic)). Samurai meanwhile mostly are ascribed with being very adept with their weapons.
Which is a fighter.
Just to step in, on a historical basis:
Paladins as presented by PHB most closely resemble the warrior-monks, who DID have mystical elements ascribed to them not unlike the class. (Mostly the Templars, but all three of the big organizations (Templars, Hospitalars, and Teutonic)). Samurai meanwhile mostly are ascribed with being very adept with their weapons.
Which is a fighter.
For one thing, Samurai were historically linked with the practice of archery, with the bow being one of their most iconic and important weapons of war (at least in the days when samurai actually fought wars). There is no armored archer class, so technically an important niche linked to the samurai can not be covered by existing classes.
Another thing, though, is that there is no class built around the modern pop-culture image of a samurai who wears no armor, uses Iaijustsu fast-draw attacks (thus specializing in one-handed weapons with the Versatile property), and is generally linked with superhuman feats of swordsmanship such as shooting shockwaves off a sword, incredibly feats of high-speed movement, and such.
The former is a Martial class, the second is a Ki class, and both (or some hybrid) could feasibly be called a Samurai. Some ideas of the samurai could indeed be lumped in with the Fighter or Ranger classes, but not all of them can, so there is still room for a dedicated Samurai class.
Well, the Monk's been confirmed as a Striker.
Honestly? If it's the Oriental power source, I would expect something like this:
Monk - Ki Striker
Samurai - Ki Defender
Shugenja - Leader
Wu Jen - Controller
However, I personally would rather they refluffed/changed the Incarnum classes to put them into Ki, so that Shugenja and Wu Jen can go where I think they should be - the Elemental power source. This might look like this:
Ki
Monk - Striker
Samurai - Defender
Soulborn (possibly renamed) - Defender
Incarnate (also possibly renamed) - Leader
Elemental
Shugenja - Leader
Wu Jen - Controller
Unknown
Unknown
This leaves Ki, like Martial, without a controller. I also can't think of any possible names for other Elemental classes.
Why do you need to put Incarnum into Ki in order to justify moving the Wu Jen and Shugenja over to Elemental? Why can't you just leave Ki as is, and move the Wu Jen and Shugenja over to Elemental because they don't fit in Ki? Because, seriously, I don't think the Wu Jen or Shugenja belong in Ki any more than Incarnum classes do. The Wu Jen and Shugenja are magical and elemental in focus (making them a great match for the Elemental Power Source), and most good ideas for the Ki Power Source (like the Monk) are not.
If it were up to me, the list of asian-inspired classes would look more like this (forgive the lack of imagination in naming):
Martial
Samurai 1: Armored Archer or mythical Martial Controller (reverse Warlord type)
Divine
Monk/Miko: A class that properly matches some of the flavor and abilities of the traditional Buddhist monks and Shinto shrine maidens you see in Chinese/Japanese pop culture.
Ki
Monk 1: A barehanded combat striker (powerful punches, quick Naruto-style "gentle fist" spiritual punches)
Monk 2: A barehanded combat controller (ki blasts and the old Setting Sun discipline)
Samurai 2: Swordsage-like superhuman swordmaster in cloth armor. Don't care about role.
Ki Archer: A Ki-based archer. Can fire arrows charged with spiritual energy and cause arrows to fall over a whole area like rain.
Elemental
Wu Jen: Controller
Ninja: Striker, embodying the most magical image of the Ninja possible.
How would this armored bow user be different than a ranger who takes armor feats?
There are probably countless ways. The ranger is far from being the end-all, be-all of archery. The focus on armor probably would radically alter it away from being as highly mobile as the ranger, and it may not even be a striker. It could probably be fused with another concept that both meshes with the image of a "samurai" and provides an alternative build that further differentiates it from the ranger.
In what way would this lightly armored, 1 handed blade-wielding, superfast warrior be different than a reflavored swordmage?
I don't have access to the Swordmage class, so I am not sure if I can get into specifics, but as far as I am aware that class throws fireballs and uses magic in order to create barriers that protect allies. The similarities to the concept I am advocating are minor and superficial. If nothing else, the Swordmage is a Defender, and the superfast swordmaster concept doesn't have to be (I imagine it more as a Striker or Controller).
Just to step in, on a historical basis:
Paladins as presented by PHB most closely resemble the warrior-monks, who DID have mystical elements ascribed to them not unlike the class. (Mostly the Templars, but all three of the big organizations (Templars, Hospitalars, and Teutonic)). Samurai meanwhile mostly are ascribed with being very adept with their weapons.
Fighter with Skill Training (religion) and Ritual Caster, and maybe multi-classed into cleric would be more then enough to represent the rather low grade divine abilities attributed to a classical paladin. Then again, if we stick to an entirely historical presentation we wouldn't even have clerics or wizards, just martial classes and even those classes would probably need to be toned down.
The same is true for a samurai. For a realistic historical archetype fighter and/or ranger are probably enough, but D&D is fantasy. In fantasy samurai mystically and have more in common with classes like the monk then with fighters.
How would this armored bow user be different than a ranger who takes armor feats? In what way would this lightly armored, 1 handed blade-wielding, superfast warrior be different than a reflavored swordmage?
The biggest problem with the ranger in heavy armor approach is that it's inefficient. The high DEX needed to make an archery ranger function typically makes heavy armor unnecessary and thus it becomes wasteful to waste the feat slots.
As for the swordmage, they are far more overtly magical then what a samurai would likely be. Swordmage are about channeling elemental magic through a blade. They are arcane gishes and the ultimate blending of swords and sorcery. A samurai's swordplay, while mystical, is less magical. The might cut the air creating tornado or vacuum like effects, but they usually aren't throwing around lightning and fire.
As I see it samurai should be a Ki Defender. Their should be both an armored build and unarmored build. The armored build would be a sub-controller; focusing on abilities similar to those of previous D&D samurai classes such as "shouts" which would give them close burst fear effects. The unarmored build would be more in line with modern pop-culture samurais and would function as a sub-striker, focusing on speed and mobility. Both builds would use STR as a Key stat, armored samurai would also use CHA, while unarmored samurai would use DEX.
As for an archery samurai, I think that it would initially be enough to just to make sure they have proficiency with military ranged weapons. Later, in Ki Power, I could see some potential in an archery build. Maybe using WIS as its attack stat (like 3.5 Zen Archery) so as to synergize better with heavy armor.
[INDENT]Afterthought: Maybe they should use wisdom as their key attack stat for melee attacks as well. The zen like flavor can apply their just as well. I probably only selected Strength as a key stat initially because WIS+CHA armored samurai would have worse NADs then STR+CHA, but if the laser-cleric and Charismadin are fine with that combination then I suppose samurai would be fine as well.[/INDENT]
Given the little blurbs about the chi power source and it using souls for its energy, I think it's safe to assume we'll see even a little incarnum in it; I'm glad for that
The psionic fans want to have a word with you.
They have pitchforks.
Formed by their brains.
Ye see, I think the best way to make a distictive Ki power source is to make it a mirror to Psionics.
Ki becomes "Mind over Body" compared to Psi's "Mind over Matter".
Whilst I can see Incarnum being folded into Ki, it shouldn't be more than a single "Incarnate" class, who uses Ki via spells/artifacts instead of training.
Oh, and Incarnum did actually use the Meldshaper's personal soul-energy; they called it essentia.
And everything is more powerful when imbued with blue.
And everything is more powerful when imbued with blue.
But does red paint make it go fasta?
These discussions always remind me of the "Campaign for Equal Heights" from Terry Prattchetts Disc World Novels.
A bunch of humans running about, arguing with everyone about Dwarven rights, calling people speciest (like racist, but against non-humans), arguing about the definition of lengths, etc...
The Dwarves, meanwhile, are busy working instead.
We stand here, fighting about what's acceptable applications of Ki, acceptable powers for martial artists, etc.
Meanwhile, Asian authors are busy making "Kung Fu Hustle", "Bleach", "Naruto", "Streetfighter", and about a billion other things where Ki/Chi/Qi/Aardvark/Che/Qui/Channukkah can be used for everything from flying, to shooting laserbeams, to repairing wooden chairs, to spontainous regeneration and cloning...
Sooo, yeah.
Pretty much.
Don't forget, Ki can be used to turn a Soccer Game into WWII.
Last time I checked though, there isn't an actual Asia or Europe in DnD, nor does being a monk say you have to be asian or anything like it... Of course images of monks and stuff are typically asian, well guess where the most monks are?
I don't know about you, but it seems like there's plenty of Catholic monks in Europe and the United States... in fact I'd wager they outnumber Buddhist and Taoist monks, or at the very least, the numbers run close.
edited in more responses without double posting:
Historically samurai may have only been skilled swordsmen, but historically paladins were just knights in service to the church.
Actually as I understand it, paladins were historically knights in service of Charlemagne. Roland the Paladin is where the original stories and myths of paladins came about. IIRC.
Psylocke of the X-men (and other related works) would most likely qualify as a soulknife, and X-men is inarguably popular fiction.
You know, you're right, actually. Although her powers are described as psionic, they're really hardly psionic at all, but more ki-ish. I've never given it that much thought before.
They should rename her Kilocke.
But there already is a spirit power source, Primal. This discussion reminds me of the primal debates before we saw any of the classes. Then they surprised us with the world spirit concept.
I see them expanding the Ki concept in a similar way, much like the Force, which I see as more spirit than psychic, that only certain individuals can sense and shape using their own soul as an instrument. In this way you can have your air type source as air is all around you and have it produce effects like the soulblade, etc. You could even have it encompass not the souls of the unborn, but the souls(spirits) of the ancestors, as I see the pc races as having a different type of force.
Bel
That's a fantastic idea, as far as the Force, which I've always seen as analogous to Ki anyway. Problem is, we have the Swordmage. What's left to do with the Force? (Honest question-- I'm not a huge Star Wars fan.)
Might I define a single problem with the issue?
A power source must be broad. I'm not just talking big, I mean downright behemothic. Titanic. Gargantuan. Freakin-huge. They are not archetypes. They are portfolios, the things in which archetypes are filled and categorized.
So step back.
Let's say I presented you with a character. He shoots fire out of his hands. What power source does he use?
Primal? Using the spirits of fire within nature to hurl forth the essence of the flaming forest, the scorching desert sands. Arcane? Tapping into the essence of fire, speaking the words that bind the energy together. Elemental? Damn obvious, take fire, hurl fire. Divine? Channeling astral fire through your divine connection and throwing it forth. Martial? Yes, I said martial. Through speed and technique, perhaps you can generate so much friction that you literally ignite the air around you. Psi? Vibrate those air molecules, baby, vibrate them hard and fast. Shadow? Pluck the dissipating heat from the bodies of the dead, or hurl an illusion so very real that it scorches reality itself. Ki? Form your vital essence into a ball of energy, ignite, throw.
Okay, some of them are a stretch, and a damn ugly one at that. But here's the point. A certain set of actions, no more, no less do not define a source of power.
Power sources are the means by which you flavor your powers.
And sometimes, they overlap.
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I do not mean to sound offensive, OP, but your list of "What Ki can and cannot do" doesn't really define anything. I could call it Arcane, saying that all the attacks are spells, and the healing is just like the bard. Or I could call it primal, the wind and water pushing you along, the energies of the earth charging your strikes, the manipulation of the primal body to harm or heal. Or, if you give me enough tequila, I could call it all martial, just in the epic sense.
I support the inclusion of Incarnum in Ki, but not in the way you think. I don't want a bunch of people running around with their shiny objects molded out of souls, all with silly names and even worse fashion sense. Nor do I want every ki user to rely on the power of the color blue.
But I do want Ki to be the essence, the aura, the spirit of the world.
Arcane is All Magic, the connections between things, the energies, the manipulation of the laws of physics. Primal is the All Nature, the environments of the multiverse and all that exists within them. Psi is the All Mind, the thought and knowledge and workings of psyches of all things. Martial is the All Body, the prime essence of technique and physical mastery. Divine is the All Godly, the heavens and hells, morals and musings of all that is celestial. Shadow is the All Darkness, the unknown, the mysterious, the illusionary, even the unliving. And Ki could become the All Soul, the essense, the spirit of everything.
But the Essence has a Mind, within a Body, in an Environment full of Magic that stands between the Celestial and the Darkness.
So what's the point of this mad raving? Don't worry too much about what a power source does and does not due. Worry more about making sure that every power source is broad, flavorful, and fitting to the world, enriching the whole. One should not try to place martial arts monasteries in every world of the multiverse, just as one shouldn't try to make every arcane character use a spellbook, or every divine character require a specific deity, or primal casters to love forests. Instead, focus on how characters of different power sources approach their abilities, how they train, how they initiate, how they pass on their teachings, how their abilities reflect a portion of the greater world. How does a divine character's relationship with an external deity or belief flavor their abilities? What does the study of magic mean for learning, for further growth? What forces interests the primal spirit, and how do they connect to the rest of the world, for good or ill? How do different psionic concepts and ideas shape their powers?
A monk can use Ki. But Ki should be much, much more. Quit arguing about the powers. Find the Source.
/bow
We stand here, fighting about what's acceptable applications of Ki, acceptable powers for martial artists, etc.
Meanwhile, Asian authors are busy making "Kung Fu Hustle", "Bleach", "Naruto", "Streetfighter", and about a billion other things where Ki/Chi/Qi/Aardvark/Che/Qui/Channukkah can be used for everything from flying, to shooting laserbeams, to repairing wooden chairs, to spontainous regeneration and cloning...
To be fair on the side of Asian authors, Street Fighter has tons of non-Asian characters (probably outnumbering the Asian characters in fact) that all use Ki. The same is true for a lot of the things you mention. It seems clear to me that Asians, in general, don't feel that THEY are the only ones who can harness Ki.
Oh and Ken is my favorite Street Fighter. I'll beat your Chun Lis, Vegas, M. Bisons, and Akumas any day of the week with my Ken.
Actually as I understand it, paladins were historically knights in service of Charlemagne. Roland the Paladin is where the original stories and myths of paladins came about. IIRC.
Having just checked wikipedia you would appear to be correct, however, that hardly changes the fact that from a historical perspective paladins would just be fighters with a specific flavor. So my point still stands, if Paladin has become a distinct enough concept to warrant it's own class then samurai likely has as well.