Ki is mentioned only twice so far within printed 4e books -- once in Races and Classes, saying that the monk can "channel his ki to heal his wounds", and once on PHB 54, saying "monks harness the power of their soul energy (or ki)". This isn't much to go on, but it's a start. It lets us know a couple things. Everybody has ki -- some, I'm sure, have it more than others, but everyone has it. Ki is a personal thing; it belongs to you and typically affects only you. Mechanically ki can be tied to the wisdom and constitution scores and to a degree the charisma score. Historically it is very similar to incarnum, so similar I expect an incarnum class to appear almost wholesale among the ki-using classes.
Here is an example of how I could see the ki based classes working out:
Monk (Ki Striker): The monk focuses his ki into his martial training, using it to harden his muscles, quicken his senses, and turn his body into the perfect weapon. Out of combat, he lives an ascetic lifestyle, spending every spare moment training not only his combat skills but his ability to harness his abundant ki. In combat, his strikes are both the wind and the landslide, his mind as sharp as a blade and as impregnable as an iron fortress. He flies across the battlefield, his fists in a flurry of blows, striking weak points nobody else even knew existed. This is the power of the monk.
Mechanically, the monk's key attack stat is dexterity with strength and wisdom playing secondary roles. His extra damage feature is Focus, detailed below:
Anyways the monk as a sriker is pretty much a definite.
I'm going to go with an off choice and say that the defender will be a new immigrant to the Ki power source, the Soulknife. The soulknife really makes more sense to me as a Ki class then as a Psionic class because I don't personally see psionics as something that should be generating something like an energy blade. If Ki absorbs Incarnum, then the Soulknife could get some incarnum based traits.
The Ki leader seems like it should be fairly straight forward like a divine leader, although I'm not sure what to call it or how it would be unique. I want to say that it would be something that creates soulmelds that grant bonuses to characters, but I'd just be copying one of the ideas I read for the Artificer healing.
The controller should be comething completely new. It should in a sense create soulmelds with planet by tapping into the universal soul or something like that. Once they create a soulmeld with the planet it creates a zone with some effect, and the controller can destroy the zone as a minor action damaging all enemies within the zone.
Maybe they'll poach some ideas from the Incarnum book.
It's a bit difficult to imagine what sorts of classes will be available in the Ki power source (besides the monk) without falling into the 'token Asian class' trap. Samurai and Ninja are easy concepts to imagine, but may just feel like 'Asian-flavored fighter' and 'Asian-flavored rogue' if the developers aren't careful.
Maybe they'll poach some ideas from the Incarnum book.
You're looking at it the wrong way. Samurai and ninjas are not even remotely related to ki, assuming WotC treats ki as an actual power source and not just a catch-all asian section. Ki is soul energy. How the heck can you get from soul energy to ninjas and samurai? You can't. Those classes are martial classes -- just names tacked on to specific types of fighters and rogues. No amount of ret-conning to add the soul energy useage to those classes would save WotC from the outcry that they flushed a good and cool concept down the toilet.
Incarnum will be incorporated into ki. I have no doubt that there will be a meldshaping class within the ki classes, most likely the defender because it just fits the defender mechanics so well. However, without the actual meldshaping system I doubt there is enough variation to have more than one. And it also isn't a perfect match -- you can't explain the monk's power through meldshaping. This means if it appears, it has to be the exception, not the rule. It has to be that THIS ki class can meldshape, not that all ki classes can meldshape except the monk who doesn't do anything similar. In short, meldshaping is one specific use of soul energy (ki), but isn't the only use, and because of that I'd put money on it that it'll get only one class.
The soulknife would make a perfect port to the ki power source. My only issue is that he would have to be a ki striker. There is nothing defender-y about a guy who's key ability is to form a blade made out of his soul and to change him to be more defender-y would be to render the class almost unrecognizeable from it's 3.5e version. You've already changed the class's power source, don't change it's role too. That said nothing says every power source has to have one class of each role, though -- this could easily be a power source with no controller or no leader but two strikers. Just, if they do port the soulknife to ki, don't expect to see it until PHB4 because they aren't going to put it in the psionic PHB (probably, hopefully PHB3) to avoid confusion.
Ki shouldn't be "martial arts maneuvers" any more than it should be "oriental catchall power source."
As for a Samurai or Ninja class: Can some people not see that the Fighter and Rogue were already written with filling this role in mind? Seriously?
You're looking at it the wrong way. Samurai and ninjas are not even remotely related to ki, assuming WotC treats ki as an actual power source and not just a catch-all asian section. Ki is soul energy. How the heck can you get from soul energy to ninjas and samurai? You can't. Those classes are martial classes -- just names tacked on to specific types of fighters and rogues. No amount of ret-conning to add the soul energy useage to those classes would save WotC from the outcry that they flushed a good and cool concept down the toilet.
Incarnum will be incorporated into ki. I have no doubt that there will be a meldshaping class within the ki classes, most likely the defender because it just fits the defender mechanics so well. However, without the actual meldshaping system I doubt there is enough variation to have more than one. And it also isn't a perfect match -- you can't explain the monk's power through meldshaping. This means if it appears, it has to be the exception, not the rule. It has to be that THIS ki class can meldshape, not that all ki classes can meldshape except the monk who doesn't do anything similar. In short, meldshaping is one specific use of soul energy (ki), but isn't the only use, and because of that I'd put money on it that it'll get only one class.
The soulknife would make a perfect port to the ki power source. My only issue is that he would have to be a ki striker. There is nothing defender-y about a guy who's key ability is to form a blade made out of his soul and to change him to be more defender-y would be to render the class almost unrecognizeable from it's 3.5e version. You've already changed the class's power source, don't change it's role too. That said nothing says every power source has to have one class of each role, though -- this could easily be a power source with no controller or no leader but two strikers. Just, if they do port the soulknife to ki, don't expect to see it until PHB4 because they aren't going to put it in the psionic PHB (probably, hopefully PHB3) to avoid confusion.
Just wanted to say that Ki IS tied in with the samurai and ninja. In kendo/kenjutsu, we have the "kiai" which is, metaphysically, a sudden outburst of ki, physically manifested as a shout. As for the ninja, we have the kuji-kiri (the nine cuts), which was a form of meditation involving ki.
However, this is just me nit-picking, because I, too, don't see much difference, mechanically, between a samurai and a fighter, and between a ninja and rogue.
See, you've already begun doing what you want WotC to avoid. There is honestly no reason for your example Flurry of Blows and Spinning Sweep to not be Martial powers. Especially seeing as we can draw close approximations from already existing Martial powers.
Ki shouldn't be "martial arts maneuvers" any more than it should be "oriental catchall power source."
As for a Samurai or Ninja class: Can some people not see that the Fighter and Rogue were already written with filling this role in mind? Seriously?
A monk is more than a martial character. Martial characters obey the laws of physics -- monks don't have to. They will at first, yes, and for a bit will seem like a martial character, but as they level their abilities will more and more break the limits of what is possible. That's their goal. Their ki is their means, their martial prowess is their ends.
I understand your argument, but the same argument can be made for strength paladins. After all, strength paladins use almost purely martial attacks too. The difference is what allows the strength paladin to hit so hard -- for a martial character it is training, for a strength paladin it is his god's divine might, and for a ki character it is his soul energy reinforcing his body.
Just wanted to say that Ki IS tied in with the samurai and ninja. In kendo/kenjutsu, we have the "kiai" which is, metaphysically, a sudden outburst of ki, physically manifested as a shout. As for the ninja, we have the kuji-kiri (the nine cuts), which was a form of meditation involving ki.
However, this is just me nit-picking, because I, too, don't see much difference, mechanically, between a samurai and a fighter, and between a ninja and rogue.
I stand corrected. I apologize; my research on the samurai and ninja classes is basically none beyond what I know of the 3.5e versions and what is common knowledge.
See, you've already begun doing what you want WotC to avoid. There is honestly no reason for your example Flurry of Blows and Spinning Sweep to not be Martial powers. Especially seeing as we can draw close approximations from already existing Martial powers.
Ki shouldn't be "martial arts maneuvers" any more than it should be "oriental catchall power source."
As for a Samurai or Ninja class: Can some people not see that the Fighter and Rogue were already written with filling this role in mind? Seriously?
I saw that Kensai is a fighter paragon path (and falchions, greatswords, or bastard swords can be reflavored into a katana in a pinch), and shurikens are available as rogue weapons so a decent ninja can be built using a Rogue.
At least there's one class concept (the monk) that can be envisioned for the ki source, unlike the elemental source (which is difficult to find a potential niche for without bumping into the wizard or sorcerer. They might give conjuration to that source, or use some of the non-ki Asian classes like wu jen or shugenja there)
A monk is more than a martial character. Martial characters obey the laws of physics -- monks don't have to. They will at first, yes, and for a bit will seem like a martial character, but as they level their abilities will more and more break the limits of what is possible. That's their goal. Their ki is their means, their martial prowess is their ends.
I understand your argument, but the same argument can be made for strength paladins. After all, strength paladins use almost purely martial attacks too. The difference is what allows the strength paladin to hit so hard -- for a martial character it is training, for a strength paladin it is his god's divine might, and for a ki character it is his soul energy reinforcing his body.
If the bulk of the monk's powers are fairly fantastic things that involve more than "concentrating as you punch" then I can buy it. If only a few powers that should by all means be martial are marked Ki only to fit on to a class that will have a massive amount of legitimately Ki powers I can let it slide. But the argument of "martial character is training, ki character is his soul energy reinforcing his body" doesn't quite fly too well with me on its own, especially if you take a look at the Kensai path for Fighters.
Also, "Martial characters obey the laws of physics" isn't true at all passed level 10. ;)
... elemental source... shugenja ....
I'd love for WotC to abort that improperly named elementalist caster they took from the Legends of the Five Rings game and go back to TSR's shugenja proper. At least the 1st ed OA one was actually based on Shugenja...
But thats not really an issue here.
Attack powers seem like they should involve a lot of shifting, granting statuses like dazed, stunned, and slowed, as well as pushing and sliding enemies. Sure there are martial powers that do these things already, but there are also arcane and divine powers that do too, it seems unlikely that ki powers will operate in an entirely new paradigm of what powers do. One thing we haven't seen before (or that I just can't recall atm) would be Wisdom based attacks with melee range, like Stunning Blow or what have you. Monks could also have a high number of interrupt or reaction based attacks, representing something like grabbing an incoming attacker and flinging him across the room.
Monks' uniqueness will come in their class features. Clearly some kind of unarmored AC bonus is in order. The focus idea above is very cool. I think healing surges also represent remaining energy fairly well, and think it would be cool to give them a high number of surges and more ways to use them. Perhaps similar to Channel Divinity, once or twice per encounter a monk could use a healing surge to increase damage, pass a saving throw, etc.
One of my players had one in my last 3.5 game and it certainly felt that way (like power from within). Always reprensenting effects like if it was a taint on his soul from his trip to hell (didn't mention he was a hellbred?) So he had souls around him instead of inside him... put hey... they came back with him from beyond the grave...
A monk is more than a martial character. Martial characters obey the laws of physics -- monks don't have to. They will at first, yes, and for a bit will seem like a martial character, but as they level their abilities will more and more break the limits of what is possible. That's their goal. Their ki is their means, their martial prowess is their ends.
I don't think that defining the difference between martial and ki using the laws of physics is a good idea. All high level characters, even martial ones go beyond the what could be considered natural. As I see it the difference between martial and ki isn't necessarily how the powers manifest, but rather about how the character disciplining themselves.
A martial character trains like a soldier in boot camp. They exorcise daily push-ups, sit-ups, pull-ups (lots of ups). They run obstacle courses and perform training drills. It's high impact training and very smelly and dirty.
A ki character on the other hand is more about rhythm. Half the training is just learning how to breath. Ki characters learn to quiet their mind and so they can know their inner self. Once the ki wielder as found their inner focus only then do they go about their physical train, but even then its more about controlled purposeful movement. Ki is just as much about spiritual discipline as it is physical discipline.
All that being said, while I think there is a place for mystical ki abilities, such knocking an enemy over with only the wind created by your arm slicing the air or even full-on energy waves (though not the planet destroying DBZ kind), I still think their is plenty of room for powers that are more physically oriented.
It's important to remember that power source is a rather different concept in 4e than it was in 3e. Powers don't have to call upon all new mechanics to justify a new source. In fact power sources are more about fluff than crunch. They're a useful way to group classes together thematically, not a method to divide them mechanically.
Does raise a question for when the system gets going, though. Would there be anything wrong with a class that has a hybrid power source? If the monk ended up as a martial/psionic mix with powers of both sorts, would that really cause in-game problems?
Ki is an asian word, which describes an asian concept tied into asian philosophy and religion. There are Dozens of perfectly good english words for spirit energy to title a Soul power source, including one WotC Created themselves, Incarnum. If Ki were going to be purely a Soul/Spirit power source, they would have called it Spirit or Incarnum.
Calling it Ki makes it implicit that, right or wrong, the power source will posses an asian flavor.
Furthermore, given that Monk has been confirmed to be a Ki power source class, and that the Monk is purely a Shaolin-David-Caradeen-as-Kwai-Chang-Kane-in-Kung-Fu azn flavored class, this FURTHER implies that Ki is going to be an asian flavored power source.
So, that being said, I agree that Monk, Samurai, & Ninja SHOULD be martial classes, and Shugenja/Onmyogi/Etc. SHOULD be Arcane/Divine as appropriate. But I believe they WILL be Ki, regardless of type and nature, because they are asian themed, and Ki is the Asian theme power source.
And please, please, please forgive me when I'm proved right.
And please, please, please forgive me when I'm proved right.
IF. IF you're proven right then I'll lose a great deal of respect for WotC.
Which at this point will probably get me close to the low negatives, really.
So, that being said, I agree that Monk, Samurai, & Ninja SHOULD be martial classes, and Shugenja/Onmyogi/Etc. SHOULD be Arcane/Divine as appropriate. But I believe they WILL be Ki, regardless of type and nature, because they are asian themed, and Ki is the Asian theme power source.
Actually if Ki fails to become fully realized as a unique power source I'd rather see ninja use the Shadow power source. In the shadow power source we could bet a mystical ninja. Rogue already works fine as is for the more mundane variety of ninja.
Forgive me, for I am the eternal devil's advocate, and cannot avoid providing counter arguements.
Ki is an asian word, which describes an asian concept tied into asian philosophy and religion. There are Dozens of perfectly good english words for spirit energy to title a Soul power source, including one WotC Created themselves, Incarnum. If Ki were going to be purely a Soul/Spirit power source, they would have called it Spirit or Incarnum.
Calling it Ki makes it implicit that, right or wrong, the power source will posses an asian flavor.
Furthermore, given that Monk has been confirmed to be a Ki power source class, and that the Monk is purely a Shaolin-David-Caradeen-as-Kwai-Chang-Kane-in-Kung-Fu azn flavored class, this FURTHER implies that Ki is going to be an asian flavored power source.
So, that being said, I agree that Monk, Samurai, & Ninja SHOULD be martial classes, and Shugenja/Onmyogi/Etc. SHOULD be Arcane/Divine as appropriate. But I believe they WILL be Ki, regardless of type and nature, because they are asian themed, and Ki is the Asian theme power source.
And please, please, please forgive me when I'm proved right.
We already have a WotC employee who stated something to the effect that not all of the "oriental" classes will be in the Ki power source. So it won't just be the AZN power source.
And they chose Ki over Incarnum for the name because it is more ingrained in the mainstream's mind(or so I would imagine).
I move this flower to the north wall of the room, improving the flow of energy, and you may spend a healing surge and gain an additional 1d6 HP.
I paint the north door to this room red and you gain a +2 to initiative and +1 on all attacks if you are closer to the door than the enemy attacked.
Could be lots of fun.
I'm all for a feng shway Ki (or chi) leader.
I move this flower to the north wall of the room, improving the flow of energy, and you may spend a healing surge and gain an additional 1d6 HP.
I paint the north door to this room red and you gain a +2 to initiative and +1 on all attacks if you are closer to the door than the enemy attacked.
Could be lots of fun.
Not that I actually want to see the feng shway master class, but I would like to nominate you as the winner of this thread.
Thanky you.
Also, "Martial characters obey the laws of physics" isn't true at all passed level 10. ;)
It's hardly true at 1st level. At later levels, Rogues can turn invisible, jump ridiculous distances and assassinate people. Not to mention a few other tricks.
Not that I actually want to see the feng shway master class, but I would like to nominate you as the winner of this thread.
Thanky you.
Actually I think that a slightly more serious feng shui class could work. Not the whole redecorating idea, but something along the lines of changing the flow of the "universal soul" in order to strengthen the resolve and bodies of your allies.
It's spelled feng shui.
Dang it!:embarrass
I agree I could have flavored the monk a little better. It should have more focus on the ki aspect of his attacks. But, the concept of a character who takes a power source and uses it to enhance his physical strength is perfectly valid. Not only is there an example in PHB1 (strength paladin), the barbarian from PHB2 will be even more so. His whole shtick is that he gets really, really ****** and therefore hits really, really hard. And yes, they will add the whole primal flavor to him and will certainly have one of his paths be decidedly bestial, calling upon animal spirits to aid him in battle and somesuch as opposed to just getting really ******, but the same logic is applicable to monks as well. With proper flavor they will work just fine as a ki class and in three years this whole conversation will be forgotten.
Re: TiwazTyrsfist
Ki may be an asian word, but asia does not have a monopoly on the soul. What I mean is, the concept of soul is (almost) universal among cultures. While not all cultures put the same focus on harnessing the soul energy like asian cultures did, this doesn't mean it isn't present in those cultures. In short, ki is simply the most well known descriptor of this power source, and therefore the one they've used for it.
Re: Ranadiel
About the quote from the WotC employee that ki is not just going to be the AZN power source, do you have a source for that? I've heard it tossed around as fact, but don't begin to know where to look for it. Not that I disbelieve you, it's just that sometimes things can get ingrained into the general forum population as fact because enough people have stated it as fact and I would love for this to not be one of those things.
I'm all for a feng shway Ki (or chi) leader.
I move this flower to the north wall of the room, improving the flow of energy, and you may spend a healing surge and gain an additional 1d6 HP.
I paint the north door to this room red and you gain a +2 to initiative and +1 on all attacks if you are closer to the door than the enemy attacked.
Could be lots of fun.
:heehee Could not stop laughing. Seriously. Win. (Just fix the spelling.)...Chinese or Korean or Thai or Vietnamese...Hworang, or Dao Shi, or Khan, or Gurkha, or Sifu or Ghandarva classes.
Should also be noted: Greek, Nordic, Gaelic, Celtic, and Native American mythology/legends all contain elements of "universal soul" that virtually mirrors the Asian concept.
This all sounds like good stuff!
Khift, good point bringing up the Paladin and Barbarian "drawing strength," but I think it's still fair to say that without an original mechanic of some type the redundancy will get boring. If it's only a matter of fluff and flavoring then it's not a new class.
It would be nice to know for sure that ki won't equal Azn...although that DBZ image (genkidama??) got another laugh from me. Haven't thought of that in forever!
-Joni
Re: Ranadiel
About the quote from the WotC employee that ki is not just going to be the AZN power source, do you have a source for that? I've heard it tossed around as fact, but don't begin to know where to look for it. Not that I disbelieve you, it's just that sometimes things can get ingrained into the general forum population as fact because enough people have stated it as fact and I would love for this to not be one of those things.
Do I have a source? Ha, that is a silly question. I maintain the giant list of sources of information about future releases. So here is the source(mind you it is a podcast and I forgot the exact time it is said).
As I recall, the specific statement is something along the lines of, "We won't release an Oriental Adventures book until after the Ki power source has been released in a PHB. As the Ki power source will contain some of the oriental campaign style classes." It has been a while since I refreshed my memory on the exact wording though.
- The Monk will be, like the Druid, the thematic based of its power source.
- The powers will be called Forms. Form is a martial arts term for a practiced series of choreographed movements.
- Powers will have a mystical flavor and their effects may inflict elemental damage.
- If Ninjas appear in this power source, their abilities may include thing like breathing fire, transforming/summoning/controlling animals such as snakes/toads/snails, launching storms of shuriken, poisoning with a touch and teleportation. They may fill the position of Ki Controller.
- The Ki Defender, be it Samurai, Yojimbo, Swordsage or something else entirely, maybe more of a reactive defender, punishing enemies for entering/staying in the 1 or 2 square burst they control.
- If Ninjas appear in this power source, their abilities may include thing like breathing fire, transforming/summoning/controlling animals such as snakes/toads/snails, launching storms of shuriken, poisoning with a touch and teleportation. They may fill the position of Ki Controller.
I see what you did there.
-Joni
The Monk will be, like the Druid, the thematic based of its power source.
Doesn't bother me.
The powers will be called Forms. Form is a martial arts term for a practiced series of choreographed movements.
Ugh, I pray not. Martial Arts = Martial. Martial arts should in no way be restricted to the "Ki" power source.
But I don't have high expectations for anything Wizards makes these days, so whatever.
Powers will have a mystical flavor and their effects may inflict elemental damage.
Yes, Ki should be more mystical in nature, it should not in any way be "oriental martial."
If Ninjas appear in this power source, their abilities may include thing like breathing fire, transforming/summoning/controlling animals such as snakes/toads/snails, launching storms of shuriken, poisoning with a touch and teleportation. They may fill the position of Ki Controller.
On the powers, sure, why not. On the idea of a "ninja" class, look at the Rogue. Look at it and tell me you cannot see that it was explicitly written with "ninja" in mind. It sneaks, assassinates, turns invisible, evades, strikes swiftly, and gets a bonus to throwing SHURIKEN, of all things.
The Ki Defender, be it Samurai, Yojimbo, Swordsage or something else entirely, maybe more of a reactive defender, punishing enemies for entering/staying in the 1 or 2 square burst they control.
I wouldn't mind seeing a "reactive defender" type class.
If Ninjas appear in this power source, their abilities may include thing like breathing fire, transforming/summoning/controlling animals such as snakes/toads/snails, launching storms of shuriken, poisoning with a touch and teleportation. They may fill the position of Ki Controller.
Naruto is not ninja. The closest thing to ninja right now is the rogue (in fact, as it is now, I would call them ninja, minus the flavor and a few missing weapons). If they do put in a ninja class, though, it should be about subtlety and movement (increasing speed, turning invisible, certain status effects, poison attacks, and gaining concealment). I think movement-based extra damage would be a neat gameplay option, as well.
First of all, in Japanese folklore there are traditionally two types of Ninja. One is a very realistic infiltrator type that can be covered by the Rogue. The other is a far more supernatural mystical ninja. This mystical type is the one I am suggesting for the Ki power source.
Some mystical ninja powers come from the same source as their distinctive black garb: the Japanese Theater.
- Fire Breathing was a common street performance trick that was sometimes used as a special effect in theatrical performances by the black clothed stagehands.
- The doppelganger split comes from a stage technique to act out a character being attacked by an assailant from the shadows. With half a dozen stage hands around him, the actor would not know which of the stage hands would attack; thus allowing him to act out the surprise attack more effectivly.
- Teleportation was achieved by having multiple stagehands interacting with the actors as the same character. A teleportation would occur when the currently active stagehand shifted into backstage mode and another stagehand on the other side of the stage became active.
Other powers, such as Toad/Snail/Snake control, summoning, and transformation, come from folktales such as the Tale of the Gallant Jiraiya, the very place Masashi Kishimoto got the characters Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru from for Naruto.
The powers of the characters in the 1958 novel The Kouga Ninja Scrolls, adapted into the manga Basalisk, came from the various abilities attributed to the Kouga and Iga ninja clans by commoners and nobles alike.
My current guesses for classes:
Monk (Ki Striker) - The most obvious class. Focuses on unarmed strikes and monk weapons (staffs, nunchaku, and so forth).
Swordsage/Samurai (Ki Defender) - A lightly armored warrior who focuses more on weapons than unarmed combat(especially swords and spears), inspired by similar characters in wuxia/anime. Will probably focus on counter-attacks and have a bit more mobility than other defenders.
Ninja (either another Ki Striker or a Ki Controller) - Since the Rogue covers the more 'realistic' ninja, a 'Ki' ninja will probably cover the more mystical versions of the archetype. The shadow power source has also been mentioned as a possible alternative to ki for this type of character.
Channeler/Geomancer (Ki Leader) - If there's a Ki Leader-type class, he'll probably focus on channeling soul energy through his body and those of others. This may be where some ideas from Incarnum come into play.
I'm not sure, but are there any ideas out there for a Ki class which isn't Asian in flavor? The concept (and the name) itself brings that sort of flavor to mind, but others have mentioned that similar concepts have existed in other cultures.
Hanzo187, despite what you intend your name to imply, it seems you know less about Ninja than you think.
First of all, in Japanese folklore there are traditionally two types of Ninja. One is a very realistic infiltrator type that can be covered by the Rogue. The other is a far more supernatural mystical ninja. This mystical type is the one I am suggesting for the Ki power source.
Some mystical ninja powers come from the same source as their distinctive black garb: the Japanese Theater.
Fire Breathing was a common street performance trick that was sometimes used as a special effect in theatrical performances by the black clothed stagehands.
The doppelganger split comes from a stage technique to act out a character being attacked by an assailant from the shadows. With half a dozen stage hands around him, the actor would not know which of the stage hands would attack; thus allowing him to act out the surprise attack more effectivly.
Teleportation was achieved by having multiple stagehands interacting with the actors as the same character. A teleportation would occur when the currently active stagehand shifted into backstage mode and another stagehand on the other side of the stage became active.
Other powers, such as Toad/Snail/Snake control, summoning, and transformation, come from folktales such as the Tale of the Gallant Jiraiya, the very place Masashi Kishimoto got the characters Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru from for Naruto.
The powers of the characters in the 1958 novel The Kouga Ninja Scrolls, adapted into the manga Basalisk, came from the various abilities attributed to the Kouga and Iga ninja clans by commoners and nobles alike.
Actually, these are things I already know. When I first saw Naruto a few years ago, I looked into the material that inspired the series. This includes Tale of the Gallant Jiraiya, but despite the fact the story inspired numerous anime about ninja, there is no mention of Jiraiya actually BEING a ninja. Sure, he's considered one in Kabuki, I suppose, but it's not mentioned in the story. He was part of a robber band, but that doesn't make him a ninja.
There was also a movie called called Goketsu Jiraiya (It's really old, 1921) that portrayed him in a flashy outfit. I would hardly consider that the kind of portrayal a mystical ninja would have. I'm sorry, but a guy in a outfit that sticks out like a sore thumb seems really counterintuitive to the kind of image I feel the ninja should represent.
Most of the Kabuki mysticism I have no beef with, just the fire. Too much light.
Why not ice or flashing light? Maybe diving into the ground or a small earthquake?In addition, some of the other forms of mysticism are things I like, too. Invisibility, making a smoke screen, transformation into another person, pushing your ki into the enemy's body to cause further injury. Just not some of the stuff I see on Naruto. Most of it's flash, not stealth. I think the best example of a ninja in that show is Shikamaru (by virtue of his intelligence, among other things), but that's only my opinion. Everyone's view of mystic ninja is different, but for me, I just say "no huge objects, no summoning, and no fire". It doesn't feel like ninja to me.
Also, my name came from my fascination with the ninja and Austin 3:16 :P. My historical knowledge of ninja improved greatly thanks to a few members on this forum, though it's still a speck compared to them.
Actually, these are things I already know. When I first saw Naruto a few years ago, I looked into the material that inspired the series. This includes Tale of the Gallant Jiraiya, but despite the fact the story inspired numerous anime about ninja, there is no mention of Jiraiya actually BEING a ninja. Sure, he's considered one in Kabuki, I suppose, but it's not mentioned in the story. He was part of a robber band, but that doesn't make him a ninja.
Its the same with adaptions of the tales of a Romano-British warlord that transformed him into a beloved king and knight in shining armor.
There was also a movie called called Goketsu Jiraiya (It's really old, 1921) that portrayed him in a flashy outfit. I would hardly consider that the kind of portrayal a mystical ninja would have. I'm sorry, but a guy in a outfit that sticks out like a sore thumb seems really counterintuitive to the kind of image I feel the ninja should represent.
When a ninja was more likely to have dressed up in the distinct clothing of a festival performer, courtesan, geisha, wandering monk, samurai, or Kabuki actor than the traditional black full body costume to perform their missions, it does make sense.
Most of the Kabuki mysticism I have no beef with, just the fire. Too much light.
Those sound like great options for them.
In addition, some of the other forms of mysticism are things I like, too. Invisibility, making a smoke screen, transformation into another person, pushing your ki into the enemy's body to cause further injury. Just not some of the stuff I see on Naruto. Most of it's flash, not stealth. I think the best example of a ninja in that show is Shikamaru (by virtue of his intelligence, among other things), but that's only my opinion. Everyone's view of mystic ninja is different, but for me, I just say "no huge objects, no summoning, and no fire". It doesn't feel like ninja to me.
And that opinion is fine. Just because those things do no feel like ninja abilities to you does not mean that they don't feel like ninja abilities to others. The ninja should be fine as long as nothing forces those sort of powers to be taken by every ninja.
Also, my name came from my fascination with the ninja and Austin 3:16 :P. My historical knowledge of ninja improved greatly thanks to a few members on this forum, though it's still a speck compared to them.
And that is quite alright. I was just trying to advise you not to act as if you were an expert on a subject (which your name and first reply seemed to imply) without having the information to back it up. If you had replied like you did here the first time, I would have had much less reason to call you on it.
Oh and Omni, that is my position as well.
And that opinion is fine. Just because those things do no feel like ninja abilities to you does not mean that they don't feel like ninja abilities to others. The ninja should be fine as long as nothing forces those sort of powers to be taken by every ninja.
Agreed.
Personally I feel that the Rogue already has the concept of "mundane/real-world" ninja covered. So if wizards does release an actual ninja class I want to see it focus much more heavily on the mystical ninja concept.
Gang do you really think we are going to see an Oriental themed 4E book or a Ki Power source book for 4E or is this all just wishful thinking?
Well we know there is Ki coming out, it will be in a PHB. We know there is Power books for each Power. So there will most likely be a Ki Power book.
There has been talk of perhaps doing a Oriental Adventures book, but it be more setting/fluff oriented then crunch it seems. It most likely wouldn't have new classes.
Because of how well they fit in with existing classes, all Wizards has to do is create a multi-class only class for them, like the spellscarred or the upcoming gladiator class. This would allow Ninja rogues to take powers of a more mystical nature, and would give a variety of possible samurai, fast lightly armored ones based off rangers (the later sort of duelist samurai), heavy armored fighter samurai and warlord samurai, any of which fit the theme depending on the character (possibly even some sort of rogue samurai as a Ronin?)
I would also like to see something similar to this for unarmed combat, not to the exclusion of the monk class, but in addition to it, allowing any of the above classes to become a brawler and opening the monk up to being able to use their traditional weapons (staff, spear, broadsword, longsword), or mc into brawler for unarmed like anyone else. I usually play a monk, and take kung fu in real life and this is the direction I would love to see things go.
Its the same with adaptions of the tales of a Romano-British warlord that transformed him into a beloved king and knight in shining armor.
You mean King Arthur?
When a ninja was more likely to have dressed up in the distinct clothing of a festival performer, courtesan, geisha, wandering monk, samurai, or Kabuki actor than the traditional black full body costume to perform their missions, it does make sense.
If that was their part, that would certainly make sense. That part, I get. I'm just saying it would be really stupid of a ninja to dress up like, say, a priest at a strip club. Basically, the dunbest thing you can think of.
Those sound like great options for them.
Cool. They seem effective, too, especially the quake part. Lots of prone bodies = lots of Sneak Attack for a Rogue/Ninja.
And that opinion is fine. Just because those things do no feel like ninja abilities to you does not mean that they don't feel like ninja abilities to others. The ninja should be fine as long as nothing forces those sort of powers to be taken by every ninja.
Sure. It just feels wierd when you see character in Naruto summon or create creatures that would make the Empire State Building look like a midget. It's like a walking ad saying, "Hi, I'm a ninja."
And that is quite alright. I was just trying to advise you not to act as if you were an expert on a subject (which your name and first reply seemed to imply) without having the information to back it up. If you had replied like you did here the first time, I would have had much less reason to call you on it.
Passion begets overexcitement (and excess emotion). My bad.
As for the rest of the candidates, sometimes I feel like the samurai should go in the Martial category, only because the samurai's skills (both historical and fictional) don't come off as overtly ki. Either power source would work, but for some reason, Martial has a minor edge with me. Gotta think on this one. No questioning it's a Defender, though, at least not in my mind.
I hope the monk gets more flexibility (and synergy) this time around. Ki Striker seems likely, but I'm wondering if the extra damage will come from unarmed strikes or some other area.
Ninja seems most likely a Ki Striker. Shadow's a good power source, too.
What about the Wu Jen and Shugenja? Arcane and Elemental? Could be way off, but those seem possible.
-Incarnate = Ki Controller
-Monk = Ki Striker
-Sohei = Ki Defender
…Leader?
What about the Wu Jen and Shugenja? Arcane and Elemental?
Yeah, maybe the Wu-Jen could be an Elemental Controller.
As for the Ninja, I hope they just make it a paragon path for the rogue, but if not, it would most likely be a Shadow Striker, as the Monk is almost guaranteed to be a Ki Striker, but then again they could have 2 Ki Strikers.
I really hope they don't make the Samurai Ki anything, in fact, a paragon path at most is what I would like.
Soul Hunter - Ki Striker - Like unto the Mind Blade psionic class, the Soul Hunter forms his Ki into a blade of solid spirit energy. Basic power lets him have a Dagger equivalent, but his Utilities later will allow him to manifiest different weapons. Because his attacks are often harming the soul directly, most of his attack powers will hit Will Defense rather than AC or others. His damage add effect won't actually add damage, rather he would have a sneak attack power that adds effects. Heroic-Daze, Paragon-Stun, Epic-Stun aftereffect Daze.
Monk - Ki Defender - Yes, I said Defender. Monks mobility grants him an AC bonus. His unarmed attacks increase in power with level, making his punches just as useful as a sword. Ergo, a Monk starting with Defender life could easily be a defender. Give him the ability to make OA grab/throws as a result of his Mark power. Give him some Wuxia quality flying leaps, catching sword blades in his hands, etc. Make him break faces.
Incarnate - Ki Leader - A normal persons soul is attached to thier form, but seperate. An Incarnate has gained true mastery of his own soul, and so interwoven it into his mortal form that the two are indistiguisable. Or something.
Incarnates get a bunch of bonus healing surges. Something like 9 + Con Mod + Wis Mod Healing Surges per day. The wis mod bonus would be a class feature.
A whole bunch of their powers would involve spending healing surges to heal others or produce other effects.
I don't expect to see any of the Incarnum Meldshapes however. I just don't think it would work in 4e, sadly.
Onmyoji - Ki Controller - Here we would see a combination of the 'over the top' effects from video games/anime & manga/Asian Cinema/traditional asian folk lore. The Ki controller would do things like throw balls of pure Ki, create areas of sudden pressure (slowing/dazing enemies within) by focusing his own ki, and creating short lived minions by animating paper dolls (shikigami).
Possible mechanic for Shikigami - Spend a healing surge, the paper cutout turns into a creature and has your surge value as hit points. Controlling the Shikigami takes your move action each turn.
Just some ideas.
EDIT: Other things I'd like to see, related to things NOT being Ki powersourced.
Wu Jen and Shugenja should both be Elemental powersource when it comes out. Controller and Leader respectively.
Samurai should EITHER be a Martial Defender (alternate class in a Kara-tur/Rokugan 4e) OR a Paragon Path for fighters.
Ninja should EITHER be a Shadow Striker, or possibly a paragon path for Rogues.
Frankly, Given that Rogues can use Light Blades and shuriken, all you really need to do is rename the class and a few of the class features and make Ninja-to a light blade. Give it the exact same stats as a short sword.
Onmyoji - Ki Controller - Here we would see a combination of the 'over the top' effects from video games/anime & manga/Asian Cinema/traditional asian folk lore. The Ki controller would do things like throw balls of pure Ki, create areas of sudden pressure (slowing/dazing enemies within) by focusing his own ki, and creating short lived minions by animating paper dolls (shikigami).
Possible mechanic for Shikigami - Spend a healing surge, the paper cutout turns into a creature and has your surge value as hit points. Controlling the Shikigami takes your move action each turn.
I disagree completely with this. Onmyodo has very little to do with ki at all. Not in any significant way to even be remotely considered for the Ki powersource. If its to be classified in D&D terms it would be far closer to Arcane.
The rest I agree with. Except I really wish people would forget the inappropriately name 3e "shugenja" from Rokugan. If there is to be a 4e shugenja class I really would like it to be like the 1e shugenja/3e shaman and actually HAVE SOME resemblance to shugenja.
The rest I agree with. Except I really wish people would forget the inappropriately name 3e "shugenja" from Rokugan. If there is to be a 4e shugenja class I really would like it to be like the 1e shugenja/3e shaman and actually HAVE SOME resemblance to shugenja.
The Rokugan-esque Shugenja are less boring, the same way the 4E Barbarian is crazy, savage force of nature as opposed to his real life 'shroom-munching counterpart. I read a bit about Shugendo and it strikes me as an intensely lame religion.
Forgive the focus on Japan here, its my field of study and primary knowledge base so its what I'll draw on for my little, er, 'rant' I guess.
Ki is, much like Zen Buddhism, a relatively minor concept thats been vastly overblown in modern times and given a retroactive importance that just simply didn't exist in its (attributed) heyday. In Japanese literature, folklore, and myth, you'd be very hard pressed to find a heroic character who has any of his ability attributed to "great ki." As a matter of fact, the sources of power of various Japanese heroes comes primarily from one of three things: sheer martial prowess, mastery of occult arts, or divine blessings.
Sound familiar? It should, because its the descriptions of the Martial, Arcane, and Divine power sources.
Ki in the martial arts is even a concept that didn't start appearing en mass until the mid-Tokugawa era, when martial forms took a more internal rout and began to concentrate less on battlefield practicality.
Am I against ki classes? By all means NO! I want to see some good, original class concepts and powers that will make my players giggle with glee as they imagine their characters leaping from treetop to treetop as they chase down their foes, clashing swords in midair or shaking the ground with a single stomp of their foot.
But I wanted to throw this out as some food for thought.
The Rokugan-esque Shugenja are less boring, the same way the 4E Barbarian is crazy, savage force of nature as opposed to his real life 'shroom-munching counterpart. I read a bit about Shugendo and it strikes me as an intensely lame religion.
Thats your opinion, which becomes strikingly less valid when you present it in such an offensive manner.
It can kill fun in excess. Remember; a game of FANTASY. Be creative and dare Otherwise.
Opinions don't become less valid based on how they're presented.
The way you present ideas and opinions is important - it can make them more or less accepted, by example.
To make such an example... Galileo was right, and the Church actualy wasn't so opposed to his ideas as we often make it... But he was rather agressive and 'flamey' in the way he presented them - that was the real point. Had he been more humble and calm-headed and rational...
While I wholly agree that we shouldn't completely restrict ourselves to exact historical accuracy, I personally am a fan of cultural authenticity and am a strong opponent of Orientalist stereotyping.
I'm a strong opponent of all stereotyping.
Ki is, much like Zen Buddhism, a relatively minor concept thats been vastly overblown in modern times and given a retroactive importance that just simply didn't exist in its (attributed) heyday. In Japanese literature, folklore, and myth, you'd be very hard pressed to find a heroic character who has any of his ability attributed to "great ki." As a matter of fact, the sources of power of various Japanese heroes comes primarily from one of three things: sheer martial prowess, mastery of occult arts, or divine blessings.
Sound familiar? It should, because its the descriptions of the Martial, Arcane, and Divine power sources.
Ki in the martial arts is even a concept that didn't start appearing en mass until the mid-Tokugawa era, when martial forms took a more internal rout and began to concentrate less on battlefield practicality.
Am I against ki classes? By all means NO! I want to see some good, original class concepts and powers that will make my players giggle with glee as they imagine their characters leaping from treetop to treetop as they chase down their foes, clashing swords in midair or shaking the ground with a single stomp of their foot.
But I wanted to throw this out as some food for thought.
I don't think "authentic" ki is different enough from the Martial power source to warrant a distinction. Mystical Ninja should use the Arcane power source and Shugenja with the Divine power source make sense (and presenting them as ki-users would just be plain racist). Monks using a Ki power source would render many an unarmed warrior build impossible (or at least highly undesirable because of the mental image power sources hammer into people's brains).
I'm sorry, but there is a thing as too much realism and "fidelity" to history/culture.
It can kill fun in excess. Remember; a game of FANTASY. Be creative and dare Otherwise.
I agree wholeheartedly, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't be careful about randomly applying terms to something they're not even remotely related to.
Fun always comes first, after all.
The way you present ideas and opinions is important - it can make them more or less accepted, by example.
To make such an example... Galileo was right, and the Church actualy wasn't so opposed to his ideas as we often make it... But he was rather agressive and 'flamey' in the way he presented them - that was the real point. Had he been more humble and calm-headed and rational...
That's my acid test for a person's rationality. If they react badly, then their approval is neither necessary nor desirable. People that change their viewpoints based on the status of their emotions are fickle and unstable and thus cannot be trusted to make a sound judgment.
Although I could see a very mystical ninja class with a Ki (or Shadow) power source, I'd prefer the MOC rather than a full class because the rogue fills the ninja role quite well already I believe. Same with Fighter and Samurai.
If they decide to do a Wu-Jen class I hope they give it the Elemental power source. I think that would fit it best.
I disagree completely with this. Onmyodo has very little to do with ki at all. Not in any significant way to even be remotely considered for the Ki powersource. If its to be classified in D&D terms it would be far closer to Arcane.
The rest I agree with. Except I really wish people would forget the inappropriately name 3e "shugenja" from Rokugan. If there is to be a 4e shugenja class I really would like it to be like the 1e shugenja/3e shaman and actually HAVE SOME resemblance to shugenja.
So, the name could be changed.
Call it something other than Onmyoji.
I still like the powerset.
I really like the idea posted by MWolfism to make Samurai and Ninja MOCs like the FRPG Spellscars and the Gladiator coming out soon in DRAGON.
Although I could see a very mystical ninja class with a Ki (or Shadow) power source, I'd prefer the MOC rather than a full class because the rogue fills the ninja role quite well already I believe. Same with Fighter and Samurai.
If they decide to do a Wu-Jen class I hope they give it the Elemental power source. I think that would fit it best.
MOCs? I am not up on all the hip terms. Can you help an old man out?
MOCs? I am not up on all the hip terms. Can you help an old man out?
I'm not sure on exactly what that Acronym stands for, but I assume what he means is an alternate class feature/advancement path, like Two Wep Ranger vs Archery Ranger vs Beastmaster Ranger (forthcoming).
EDIT: Oh, I'm dumb. Multi Only Class, MOC.
Like Spellscared, which functions like a class, but is only available via a Multi-class feat, not as a primary class.
Also, the Gladiator (article coming this month) is supposedly the same sort of thing.
Basically it's a list of powers for a class, minus at wills, and no class features.
You take the access feat, and then can take the powerswap feats to change powers out.
Anyways, I wouldn't mind seeing the Ki power source being all about flashy energy attacks, like one would see in a series like Yu Yu Hakusho. The Soul Knife seems like a perfect fit to me. As would Naruto if you consider the Rasengan and wall-climbing/water-walking powers.
Personally I feel that the Rogue already has the concept of "mundane/real-world" ninja covered. So if wizards does release an actual ninja class I want to see it focus much more heavily on the mystical ninja concept.
I am perfectly in agreement with this. We already have a sneaky, shadowy, and silent assassin/spy who is skilled with knives and shuriken. Since the Rogue already covers that entire archetype of ninja, a Ninja class should covers the other archetype of ninja that is skilled in more magical tricks and techniques. I wouldn't mind at all if this Ninja was an Arcane Striker or Controller.
As for the whole idea of a Ki Power Source... I am perfectly okay with the idea so long as it doesn't resemble the Martial Power Source at all, especially in effect.
Before I get into examples, I will say that I don't like applying the name "Monk" to a bare-handed fighting class, so I will just use the term Martial Artist.
A Martial Artist class that, regardless of flavor, does nothing but direct punches or kicks, acrobatic maneuvers, and various forms of "mind over matter" self improvement and endurance should be a Martial class (probably Martial Striker). In order to justify being a different power source, that kind of class needs to do something entirely different. At the very least, such a class needs to be able to do things like deal a crippling injury with just a light touch (much like the "gentle fist" style from the Naruto manga), but such a class should probably go as far as including incredibly flashy and near-magical effects like the kind Joni-san was kind enough to link to above. Either way, in my opinion a "Ki" Martial Artist needs to be able to do things such as striking at long range without weapons. Unless it is over the top, it doesn't justify being anything but Martial.
As another example, let's look at a theoretical Samurai class. If such a class had nothing but direct weapon attacks, styles, stances, and the like, it should be a Martial Class, no question (and probably shouldn't exist for fear of being too similar to the Fighter). However, if it goes over the top and embraces unusual effects, such as the classic long-range energy slash effect (samurai always have these in videogames...), or maybe the ability to fill arrows with spiritual power so that they can seal demons or just explode mid-air, then it deserves to be in a new Power Source. If they turned the Samurai into an armored and weapon-oriented Ki Controller, I would be happy.
As a side note, I hope that a Ki-based Samurai class will be created and that it will focus on using two-handed weapons, especially swords and polearms (like the naginata), as well as bows. Everyone seems to forget it, but the bow was the most important weapon of the Samurai, and one of the most important in Japanese culture. Besides, it will create the "armored archer" class that a few people seem to be clamoring for.
I hope WotC will avoid using words that are not widely known and understood in the US for class names... I can never make heads or tails of names like "Wu Jen", "Sohei", or "Onmyoji".
But in the case of Chinese Ghost Story the character Swordsman Yen, who's a Taoist Priest is probably more of an Arcane character like a Swordmage or multi-classed wizard as he was definitely using spells, it could also be argued he was a Divine character too as we was reciting sutras to fight ghosts. But then again many characters based on Taoist mystics could be argued to be either Arcane (the focus on the understanding of forces), Divine (because it's a religion), Elemental (because of the theories on the 5 elements), Primal (due to the shamanistic/animistic practices absorbed into the religion) or Ki (concept of yin and yang) or whatever depending on what their focus was. Certainly any character that focuses on alchemy is probably an Arcane character.
Other movies like Warlords or Battle of Red Cliff or the Korean movie Musa where the action is more realistic, definitely every character in it is a martial character. Personally I feel for those characters there needs to be more martial powers that focus on the spears and polearms, since those were the primary weapons used. After all the spear was called "the king of weapons" by the Chinese.
I'm not sure on exactly what that Acronym stands for, but I assume what he means is an alternate class feature/advancement path, like Two Wep Ranger vs Archery Ranger vs Beastmaster Ranger (forthcoming).
EDIT: Oh, I'm dumb. Multi Only Class, MOC.
Like Spellscared, which functions like a class, but is only available via a Multi-class feat, not as a primary class.
Also, the Gladiator (article coming this month) is supposedly the same sort of thing.
Basically it's a list of powers for a class, minus at wills, and no class features.
You take the access feat, and then can take the powerswap feats to change powers out.
Yep you got it. MOC = Mulitclass Only Class.
Also because they're mock classes :D :P