As we have the Martial Paragon Path: Kensai, we might get lucky.
Monks, Ninjas, and whatever else Wizards is going to shove in are going to kill 4th edition. Their inclusion is strictly in the face of the the games internal logic. For instance those two classes are traditionally a martial class with extreme training, everyone understands this, but now they are chi powered. By chi powered I mean magic, there is no way to explain it. They are not disciplined they are powered much like a cleric or a sorcerer, only not because Lawl they are eastern! They have nothing to offer this game and will at worse make a mess of what people want from this game. General heroic tales of western origin that at least make some sense in the context they are given, and this including has nothing to do with that, it is just catering to some weird fascination with japan and asian martial arts only they aren't even martial artists any more, they are magical powered because they are from japan!
Every edition of d&d has had asian classes, is it silly? yes but I do not see how it can harm the game.
like any campaign if you cannot work a class in then exclude it, though in the past I have seen some goos western fluff monk idea's
Bel
Every edition of d&d has had asian classes, is it silly? yes
So it's silly to have classes that are not western in origin/concept?
For instance those two classes are traditionally a martial class with extreme training, everyone understands this, but now they are chi powered. By chi powered I mean magic, there is no way to explain it.
Umm...
From the 3rd edition PHB: "Though monks don't cast spells, they have a magic of their own. They channel a subtle energy, called ki, which allows them to perform amazing feats."
Doesn't look like anything has changed on this score.
So, I'm forced to ask: what the hell are you talking about?
3rd edition monk (starts off mostly martial... gains higher ki abilities as you level):
It could also be argued that flurry of blows (1st level) and greater flurry (11th) are potentially ki powered (using the power of the monk's "inner self" to increase his/her speed to slightly superhuman levels.)
And yes, they are indeed highly trained and disciplined martial characters... in the same sense that Paladins are highly trained martial characters who are then granted divine power by way of power investiture (by ritual in 4e or by direct divine intervention in earlier editions.) Along similar lines, the 4e barbarian is mostly martial at lower levels but gains more and more "primal power" over time (granted by the primal spirits who are the source of the Primal power source.)
And if you think that "ki" and "extreme discipline & training" don't go together then you obviously don't understand the concept.
Frankly I can't wait for the monk, they're a class I've always loved in previous editions of the game, and I know at least one of my regular players is just dying for it come out as well. He's already asked if he can switch characters in the campaign we're running after the playtest version comes out.
This is fantasy. I see no reason why one player should be allowed to summon a large floating disk or fly up a wall while another player isn't allowed to use inner energy to help him run up a wall. I have always felt that the argument that D&D is Eurocentric and that ninja who run up walls were first imagined in Japan is a weak argument. Again, I don't want to play a ninja so that I can make my dragonborn look Japanese; I want to play a ninja so I can do cool things that the rules don't yet allow. Who cares where these ideas first came from. Jean val Jean could scale walls in Les Miserables, does that mean his character is Japanese and shouldn't be in a European fantasy? Let players get their new mechanics and accept that D&D is a world where awesome stuff happens regardless of where the ideas for those awesome things originated.
This might come as a surprise to some, but people who want monks in D&D are not dieing to play a character with darker skin, almond shaped eyes, and a funny accent. What they really want are new mechanics associated with a new class. People who want to play a martial character who can sneak around plunging daggers in the backs of enemies will play rogues. If the same players, however want to play a kick butt warrior who channels his inner energy into his attacks to do great amounts of damage and status effects with his bare fists, then they have to wait until that class is made.
This is fantasy. I see no reason why one player should be allowed to summon a large floating disk or fly up a wall while another player isn't allowed to use inner energy to help him run up a wall. I have always felt that the argument that D&D is Eurocentric and that ninja who run up walls were first imagined in Japan is a weak argument. Again, I don't want to play a ninja so that I can make my dragonborn look Japanese; I want to play a ninja so I can do cool things that the rules don't yet allow. Who cares where these ideas first came from. Jean val Jean could scale walls in Les Miserables, does that mean his character is Japanese and shouldn't be in a European fantasy? Let players get their new mechanics and accept that D&D is a world where awesome stuff happens regardless of where the ideas for those awesome things originated.
Thank you. That's why I believe the developers have been going out of there way to make each power source true to itself, not to an outdated model of who first thought of it.
The Ki power source is the power of calling on your own internal energies and using it to do extrodanary stunts... not the power of being asian.
Playing a paladin means that you're a warrior who has had holy/divine powers invested into him by a church or deity... not a French medieval knight.
The Primal power source is the power of calling on primal spirits for aid in battle (and typically worshipping them as well)... not the power source of being Native American or being a Shinto priest.
etc, etc.
This might come as a surprise to some, but people who want monks in D&D are not dieing to play a character with darker skin, almond shaped eyes, and a funny accent. What they really want are new mechanics associated with a new class. People who want to play a martial character who can sneak around plunging daggers in the backs of enemies will play rogues. If the same players, however want to play a kick butt warrior who channels his inner energy into his attacks to do great amounts of damage and status effects with his bare fists, then they have to wait until that class is made.
This is fantasy. I see no reason why one player should be allowed to summon a large floating disk or fly up a wall while another player isn't allowed to use inner energy to help him run up a wall. I have always felt that the argument that D&D is Eurocentric and that ninja who run up walls were first imagined in Japan is a weak argument. Again, I don't want to play a ninja so that I can make my dragonborn look Japanese; I want to play a ninja so I can do cool things that the rules don't yet allow. Who cares where these ideas first came from. Jean val Jean could scale walls in Les Miserables, does that mean his character is Japanese and shouldn't be in a European fantasy? Let players get their new mechanics and accept that D&D is a world where awesome stuff happens regardless of where the ideas for those awesome things originated.
I also think it's worth noting that the iconic Monk from 3rd edition looked to be of African descent. D&D, and fantasy in general is moving beyond limitations of the culture that spawned any particular idea.
Now if only they'll start taking more influence from Meso-American, North/South/West African, Middle Eastern, Central/South Asian, and Pacific Islander cultures (amongst others).
So it's silly to have classes that are not western in origin/concept?
It's silly to make the root of their power their "orientalness"
I think there is also room within the concept for non historical ideas that have appeared in pop culture including a more mystical ninja or samurai.
I think trying to limit the power source based on some sort of real world association litmus test is wrongheaded in a game of high fantasy.
Let's not get so caught up in where an idea for a class comes from, but let us revel in new mechanics that let us kick butt in forty different shades of awesome.
*They explore Asian countries beyond China and Japan (unlikely officially, but 3PP's may give it a shot)
*They don't put all these concepts into ki simply because of origin.
I like the concept of the ki powersource, and the monk in particular fits the niche. And thanks largely to the githzerai, monks in DnD do not feel like they originated from "the east" anymore. Even FRCG had Dark Moon monks for Shar (think monk with shadow power source), and hardly anyone noticed.
Monks, Ninjas, and whatever else Wizards is going to shove in are going to kill 4th edition. Their inclusion is strictly in the face of the the games internal logic. For instance those two classes are traditionally a martial class with extreme training, everyone understands this, but now they are chi powered. By chi powered I mean magic, there is no way to explain it. They are not disciplined they are powered much like a cleric or a sorcerer, only not because Lawl they are eastern! They have nothing to offer this game and will at worse make a mess of what people want from this game. General heroic tales of western origin that at least make some sense in the context they are given, and this including has nothing to do with that, it is just catering to some weird fascination with japan and asian martial arts only they aren't even martial artists any more, they are magical powered because they are from japan!
So you're saying that D&D will be Ruined FOREVER ?
I apologize if I have trouble taking your little wall of trant serious.
Mastering your chi takes training, extreme training most of the time, nothing to do with the cleric or with the sorcerer and certainly not 'magical because they are from Japan' (is that 'they became magical because they're from Japan' or 'they come from Japan thus they are magical'? I can't tell) and Monks are Chinese anyway ( shaolin monks).
Frankly you sound like a silly xenophobic 'KILL ANIMU!' hater. Put some more thought into your next rant. :D
I have no problem with seeing Asian classes, but I hate the asumption that if a class is asian it HAS to be Ki. Thats a terrible idea that I can't buy into. I would like to see things like a samurai paragon path for fighters, but making a samurai ki class is not really neccessary. I honestly think Ki will NOT be the catch-all for the asian classes, I think it will be more diverse than that easily.
Samurai are just as distinct from Fighters as Paladins are. Both Samurai and Paladins started as culturally distinct warrior archetypes, one from Japan and the other from Europe (more specifically France).
The origin of the term paladin goes back to the knights of Charlemagne, and were only "holy" warriors in that Charlemagne was supported by the Catholic church. However, that origin has little bearing on what has become the paladin archetype in modern popular fiction, that of crusading knight and divine champion.
Likewise, Samurai means more then just warrior from Asia, at least so far as modern popular fiction is concerned. It is an honorable swordsman, often depicted with semi-mystical powers. In many ways a monk with a sword (and sometimes heavy armor).
A re-flavored Fighter can make a reasonable proxy for a Samurai, but they can stand in for a Paladin just as well. Maybe it's just me, but I feel that making Samurai a sub-category of fighter while having Paladins as a distinct class reeks of more racism than having Ki = Asian. At least the later recognizes the concept of non-European archetypes.
There is no way for the Ki power source to be racist. There is a way for it to be stupid, though, and thats what we need to worry about.
"Oh no, I'm from a different country in Asia!"
So? Do you have Ki? No? Then this doesn't concern you.
"Oh no, I'm some white guy who feels guilty and needs to be overprotective of others' feelings."
Yep, so go get your plastic dice recycled and turn your rpg group into a drum circle, hippy, and quit projecting your insecure hate on others.
"D&D is medieval Western fantasy and I don't want Ki in it!"
If the guys who write D&D include non-medieval Western fantasy stuff in their game, then, Surprise! D&D is not actually just medieval Western fantasy. Your game can still exclude those classes/power sources/whatever that you don't like, but then your game isn't D&D as written anymore. Sorry, buddy. No more high ground for you.
"Ninjas are teh awesome kewlness! I want to shoot kamehamehas and be a stealthy assassin in an orange jumpsuit like in the animes I watch on Cartoon Network, thus making me a real anime super fan!"
You probably don't understand what you watch, and besides that, the anime you like all sucks. The good news is, you will probably be able to do the things you want when Ki comes out. Just make sure you shout "Turtle hermit wave!" when you throw energy beams from your fingers, because thats totally cool sounding.
"Samurai are just Fighters."
We'll see about that. Historical Barbarians are also just Fighters, and we know how that went. Samurai, whether I like it or not (and I don't), is a very likely choice for a future class, as the fantasy samurai, much like the fantasy barbarian, is capable of ridiculous things that can't be represented by the current classes.
"But if all the Ki classes are from Asian sources, then..."
It doesn't matter what generalization you're about to make, you're wrong. Utilizing Ki is an Asian concept. Its rooted, really, in Hinduism and Prana, which extended to China through Buddhism. Then, because Japan took, well, pretty much everything cultural from China (as Rome did to Greece in antiquity), they ended up with Ki, too (relax, I'm not claiming Japanese culture is not unique. It diverged quite a bit. Its starting point, however, was China). Korea is weird, because it was in between the two. It got some Ki in its stuff, but, much like Japan, it also had a lot of spirit stuff and is probably mostly Primal. If you want to go south, those countries have Ki, too. Silat masters, for example, are believed to do pretty much all the same crazy crap that Shaolin masters can do. So Indonesia has some word for Ki as well.
"But Europe has Ki too, because the French charged machine guns and..."
No, thats not Ki. Thats confidence. Possibly Faith. Did you know martial arts probably originated in Greece, and spread to Asia through Alexander the Great's conquests? Did you also know that even if thats true, a Ki powered Martial Artist would still be fundamentally "Asian" in implementation? Do you know why?
History Lesson.
The West and East developed differently when it came to religion. Europe moved away from animism and towards a pantheon-style religion pretty early, while Asia never really got there because even where they got pantheons, they still kept the animism. Then the West got some monotheistic religion, and get this, it was a personal deity, one that actually was concerned with you. Meanwhile, the East got Hinduism and Buddhism, whose goal is (in a very simplified nutshell) release from "you." So the West believed that "you" mattered, and the East tried to escape "you." Hmm, see a trend yet? End result?
Crazy, fearless Western guys do awesome stuff because they matter. They have one life. They can be great. Even if they die, they have faith that their personal sacrifice will matter. Its all very "selfish," but thats not the right word, really, because its not bad, just different.
Meanwhile, crazy fearless Eastern guys can do awesome stuff because they do not matter. They have as many lives as it takes to get out. They alone cannot be great. If they die, its ok, because they will have done their duty to the group (be it family, state, or whatever).
This is why Ki is its own power source and why no Western concepts fit in it. Its selfless. Its spiritual without dealing with spirits. Its religious without dealing with the Divine. Its physical without dealing with your own physical prowess. Its, frankly, weird to even describe in a Western language.
Crazy, fearless Western guys do awesome stuff because they matter. They have one life. They can be great. Even if they die, they have faith that their personal sacrifice will matter. Its all very "selfish," but thats not the right word, really, because its not bad, just different.
Meanwhile, crazy fearless Eastern guys can do awesome stuff because they do not matter. They have as many lives as it takes to get out. They alone cannot be great. If they die, its ok, because they will have done their duty to the group (be it family, state, or whatever).
This is why Ki is its own power source and why no Western concepts fit in it. Its selfless. Its spiritual without dealing with spirits. Its religious without dealing with the Divine. Its physical without dealing with your own physical prowess. Its, frankly, weird to even describe in a Western language.
Wow...
mplindustries, despite the fact that I think you probably just insulted almost everyone posting in this thread (and threads like it) with the first half of your post, I think you had some exceptionally good things too say in the second half. I really don't know how to, or even if I should, respond to any of it except for maybe well done.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to head over to the corner behind the flame retardant barricade. Best of luck, you might just need it.
Emphasis:
There is no way for the Ki power source to be racist. There is a way for it to be stupid, though, and thats what we need to worry about.
Right on.
mplindustries expresses it better than I have in here and in other threads. As an Asian with barely any ki concepts in my culture, I find ki to be a cool foreign concept (like DnD in general). I want want to see monks and ninjas and samurai in DnD.
I just don't want them to be ki for the sole reason that they came from the same place. But if explained in a non-geographical way, and instead presented as a cool, unique concept, then I am all for it.
I should leave threads of this nature now, I think. It was nice debating with you all on this topic across three different threads!
Best,
-that guy who came from a different country in Asia
For me, enough's been said on the topic now. I'm waiting for more info before further speculation. It's been fun though. :D @beej: Good show! ;)
It's silly to make the root of their power their "orientalness"
Of course, that was the point of my first post in this thread (see above).
As Ki is Soul magic/power, there are all sorts of interesting ways to go with it, not the catch all power source for any class with an Asian title or origin.
I'm still not sure whether Incarnum (there been a lot of hoopla about it lately) could/should tie in with it in some way.
And yes, mplindustries rocks the free world.
Real World Ki is not 4E Ki. Or even 3E Ki for that matter.
Dispite the fact that he said bugger all about Ki in 4E?
Real World Ki is not 4E Ki. Or even 3E Ki for that matter.
No, but the "real-world" concept of Ki, and all its mythological, literary and pop-culture variations on it, forms the basis and inspiration of D&D's particular fantasy take on Ki.
Just as the D&D wizard comes from western legends and fantasy fiction of the archetype, but the D&D wizard is not Merlin or Gandalf.
In fact, I think part of the problem is some people are trying to equate "real-world" Chi with the D&D Ki. Which is as silly as equating real world, historical paladins with the D&D version, as mplindustries points out.
We don't know how Ki will play out and the Monk will only be one example of that.
Arcane power is applied in any number of different ways across rolls and there are few similarities across class in terms of how that power is applied.
Ki might come out similar to Martial power, but with a supernatural edge.
Dispite that, all the martial characters turn out differently.
All this racism stuff is ridiculous. There's no "Fried Chicken" power source. There's no "Fence Jumper" feat. And Ki classes won't include a penalty to Nature checks made to Ride.
There is no way for the Ki power source to be racist. There is a way for it to be stupid, though, and thats what we need to worry about.
Look up post-colonial orientalism. By making "Asian" the exotic other, that gains its power from its otherness, you exclude the Asian from being able to attain the same status as the west. By then conflating all Asian groups under one essential label, Japanese, you question their validity of identity. You stop them from being able to define their own identity, and instead impose your choice of identity upon them. You are using the orient to orient a western identity. This identity is exclusionary, because you do not allow the orient to become one with the west as a common human culture. Instead, the orient must be an exotic other, an other that is diametrically opposed to the west. God forbid an eastern fighter is just that, a fighter.
I'm not saying that that is what 4e is going to do with the Ki power source. And I like some eastern flavored classes. But the issue that I think most people have is this: are they going to gain their power just from being oriental? Are we going to essentially see an oriental fighter who is a ki class, an oriental rogue who is a ki class, and so and so forth, or will they in fact be a set of "magical" classes much the way all the divine classes are a set of magical classes? Moreover, will every element of ki be flavored as a Japanese class? If not, and the classes all feel magical (and not just Oriental) then I doubt anyone will be upset.
I REALLY don't want to see a Samurai class. A paragon path? Sure, that could be cool. Not a class. I think I might be on the same boat with the Ninja, though a feat that turns unarmed attacks into a form of rogue weapon would be cool. A monk though? Yea, that could make a good class. Stuff that is imbued with mysticism and not just culture makes a good choice for Ki classes.
Given that Ki incoporates Soul power and has a clear distinction seperate from any other representation of Ki, going on about RL Ki has little to do with anything.
We don't know how Ki will play out and the Monk will only be one example of that.
Again, regardless of the D&D Ki's fluff and mechanics, it's still obviously drawing from "real world" Chi as inspiration. And that one example of the Monk using it as a power source further re-enforces the association between the two.
As the roots of D&D Ki are pretty clear, discussion of those roots is entirely relevant.
Personally, I don't care if classes with the Ki power source are based on Japanese/Chinese archetypes. Just as long as they're imaginative and well done. I see no racism or displays of cultural ignorance in it, save for Internet forum discussions like this.
Really, what's the difference between some kid in Topeka, Kansas saying "Cool! I can make a ninja like Jubei in Ninja Scroll!" and some kid in Tokyo, Japan saying "Cool! I can make a wizard like Gandalf in Lord of the Rings!"
I REALLY don't want to see a Samurai class. A paragon path? Sure, that could be cool. Not a class. I think I might be on the same boat with the Ninja, though a feat that turns unarmed attacks into a form of rogue weapon would be cool. A monk though? Yea, that could make a good class. Stuff that is imbued with mysticism and not just culture makes a good choice for Ki classes.
I don't get the dislike for a Samurai, surely if the word Monk can be subverted to a ki powered jumping unarmed martial artist who can teleport and break adamantine with his bear hands and eventually turns into an Outsider, then why on earth is a Samurai so limited in concept.
I can imagine a Samurai being someone who channels Ki through their blade into various attacks, he might be a defender or maybe even a Controller if his attacks are widespread in nature.
How the word is interpreted is down to WotC. If we consider Ki to be related to asthetic principled character relating to inner strength rather than martial power, then Ki can apply to a number of concepts of various origins.
The Ki Leader might be a Bardic type, who focuses on the rousing nature of song alone and pours their soul into their music. It would represent the non-arcane side of the Bard with a stronger focus on song or vocal leadership.
We could have a Souldrinking Ki Controller, who saps the will to live out of people and otherwise resembles the Spell Thief with Power draining abilities, or a Mystic who deals with human Spirit manipulation and may even function like a Seer or such.
It really depends on what Ki is in 4E and what themes we can expect from it.
Given that the Wujen and Sohei may be Elemental classes, clearly Ki doesn't have to be the dumping ground for oriental classes.
Again, regardless of the D&D Ki's fluff and mechanics, it's still obviously drawing from "real world" Chi as inspiration.
Except the only example we have of Ki in any D&D environment is a vague mentioning in the Monk, which has some obvious links to martial arts and oriental flavourings, but isn't limited to such interpretations. Shaolin Monks don't Teleport, Chi doesn't power the ability to punch through concrete or increase your unarmed damage die. A lot of the abilities of 3E Monks was invested.
Naturally we can look at Oriental Adventures and see Chi / Ki again as its part of that campaign setting and its clearly based on an Oriental flavoured campaign, even then - Chi / Ki is applied in numerous non Oriental ways.
Sohei aren't specifically oriental but still use Ki, various people could us Ki but without being like a Monk.
Whats more, if you look at Magic of Incarnum we see different uses of Chakra or Spirit Energy or Ki / Chi again, with no Oriental influences.
And then there's the deffinition of Ki for 4E, which isn't rooted at all in Chi specifically.
I must concede that mplindustries has a good point. It was in no way addressed in a way that I would find polite, but that doesn't change his/her good view on the matter. :D
Hey, the Phillipines are awesome. They just don't make mass market cartoons about their culture like Japan, or put government money into "historical" epics like China, or teach the Beatles how to relax like India. Besides, you're already pretty much covered by Primal and Divine. PS - all your stick fighting martial arts are awesome. If I'm mistaken, and you're not from the Phillipines, I will feel like a total tool.
I really don't know how to, or even if I should, respond to any of it except for maybe well done.
I :inlove: mplindustries.
And yes, mplindustries rocks the free world.
:D
Given that Ki incoporates Soul power and has a clear distinction seperate from any other representation of Ki, going on about RL Ki has little to do with anything.
We don't know how Ki will play out and the Monk will only be one example of that.
We don't have to know how Ki will turn out to know how it won't turn out.
Saving Space
It won't turn out with many, if any, Western concepts in it because the very premise of Ki is rooted in history and philosophy thats only really hit the West in the past hundred years or so, and really, we Westerners still don't really "get it" either.
Just look at the difference between Brazillian Jujitsu and Japanese Jujitsu. The Gracies took all of the knowledge and technique and stripped out all of the philosophy, turning it into a tool rather than a lifestyle. The Japanese dojos are talking about zanshin, mushin, fudoshin, and the philosophy of yielding force...and in the West, the dojos are talking about this totally sweet choke you whip out from rubber guard.
So what does this have to do with the Ki power source? Well, its going to be based on anime/wuxia/anything awesome thats leaked over showcasing martial arts badassery. We know that for sure. So why is a history lesson important? Because that stuff is based on the culture from which it came, and that culture is fundamentally different from Western culture.
Even all the talk about Dragonball training methods and whatnot is indicative of a difference. All those martial arts stories from China/Japan talk about the training and how they got there. Any given martial artsy anime is likely to have at least one full episode dedicated to training. And not usually interesting training either. Its just as often the headstrong young guy being broken by some old master while he sweeps a lot or stands in horse stance for days with water buckets balanced on his arms or something weird like that. Its about giving up self.
Meanwhile, the West doesn't care about the work it took to get you there. Where's Beowulf's training montage? There isn't one, he's just awesome because. Where did Achilles go to school? Did King Arthur ever receive combat training at all or did he just pick up a magic sword and go? Even in the Matrix, which heavily borrowed the style of wuxia/anime, there's no training sequence. He convulses in a chair for 10 seconds, says, "I know Kung Fu," and then we get a cool, effect-laden fight scene.
Now, all that said, while we're going to get stuff like Monk, Ninja, Samurai, Feng Shui dude, and Avatar, what we don't know is how Westernized these very non-Western concepts will get.
My main point is that all the Ki classes will have Asian origins, and at the same time, none of them will be racist.
Just look at the difference between Brazillian Jujitsu and Japanese Jujitsu. The Gracies took all of the knowledge and technique and stripped out all of the philosophy, turning it into a tool rather than a lifestyle. The Japanese dojos are talking about zanshin, mushin, fudoshin, and the philosophy of yielding force...and in the West, the dojos are talking about this totally sweet choke you whip out from rubber guard.
So what does this have to do with the Ki power source? Well, its going to be based on anime/wuxia/anything awesome thats leaked over showcasing martial arts badassery. We know that for sure. So why is a history lesson important? Because that stuff is based on the culture from which it came, and that culture is fundamentally different from Western culture.
Even all the talk about Dragonball training methods and whatnot is indicative of a difference. All those martial arts stories from China/Japan talk about the training and how they got there. Any given martial artsy anime is likely to have at least one full episode dedicated to training. And not usually interesting training either. Its just as often the headstrong young guy being broken by some old master while he sweeps a lot or stands in horse stance for days with water buckets balanced on his arms or something weird like that. Its about giving up self.
Meanwhile, the West doesn't care about the work it took to get you there. Where's Beowulf's training montage? There isn't one, he's just awesome because. Where did Achilles go to school? Did King Arthur ever receive combat training at all or did he just pick up a magic sword and go? Even in the Matrix, which heavily borrowed the style of wuxia/anime, there's no training sequence. He convulses in a chair for 10 seconds, says, "I know Kung Fu," and then we get a cool, effect-laden fight scene.
Now, all that said, while we're going to get stuff like Monk, Ninja, Samurai, Feng Shui dude, and Avatar, what we don't know is how Westernized these very non-Western concepts will get.
My main point is that all the Ki classes will have Asian origins, and at the same time, none of them will be racist.
It won't turn out with many, if any, Western concepts in it because the very premise of Ki is rooted in history and philosophy thats only really hit the West in the past hundred years or so, and really, we Westerners still don't really "get it" either.
4E Chi isn't, 3E Ki was loosely rooted, OA had people who channel Ki, but didn't always use it to generate Monk styled Ki powered attacks.
Weapon Masters are a prime example.
Iaijutsui in OA channels Ki, a Japanese sword technique but the application doesn't require Ki or a Ki powersource, its just something Fighters / samurai's Do.
Feats like Ki Shout supposedly channel Ki, but there's no Ki power source being drawn apon and the classes that can use Ki Shout don't have to be Ki masters or any sort.
Some of these are represented again in the Complete Warrior, which demonstrates some Oriental Influences.
Sohei's were Warrior Monks, that's what the RL word means, but the OA class wasn't specifically Oriental in nature, they don't even exist in Rokugan, they have some Ki abilities but as per the above - Ki has a very different and loose meaning.
So what does this have to do with the Ki power source? Well, its going to be based on anime/wuxia/anything awesome thats leaked over showcasing martial arts badassery. We know that for sure.
We don't know that for sure, you and others only assume that its true because the only Ki powered class we have is the Monk. All we know about the 4E monk is that they "harness the power of their soul energy (or Ki)". Page 54 of the PHB says that much, and there have been other sources (which you can find yourself) that explain that Ki isn't going to be people punching people with martial arts.
The Power of the Soul is key to Magic of Incarnum, its also referenced in other classes in 3E and we do not know how Ki will be applied in 4E.
We don't even know what the 4E Monk will be like, you're assuming it's going to be punching people with unarmed attacks when it may even be projecting Ki as a Force (which again might be considered oriental in flavour but isn't specifically limited to Oriental influence).
Monks, Ninjas, and whatever else Wizards is going to shove in are going to kill 4th edition.
I can't believe we got a two-page thread out of a post that began with that sentence.
Best part: we know NOTHING except that "ki is a power source" and the monk will use it.
4E Chi isn't
Where do you get this assertion from?
4E Chi isn't, 3E Ki was loosely rooted, OA had people who channel Ki, but didn't always use it to generate Monk styled Ki powered attacks.
You're separating "real world ki" from "fantasy ki" and not recognizing that the fantastic constructs were, themselves, based on and products of, cultures with "real world ki."
Weapon Masters are a prime example.
Iaijutsui in OA channels Ki, a Japanese sword technique but the application doesn't require Ki or a Ki powersource, its just something Fighters / samurai's Do. Feats like Ki Shout supposedly channel Ki, but there's no Ki power source being drawn apon and the classes that can use Ki Shout don't have to be Ki masters or any sort.
So? How does that show that fantasy Ki is not based on certain cultures? That just shows that some Ki elements of D&D past have been less fantastic than others. Surely, a 4e Fighter can have faith and believe in god(s), right? He can pray before he swings his blade, and he's no more or less Divine than if he didn't. So too, could a non-Ki source class talk about Ki and believe in Ki and all that jazz without actually being a Ki class.
Sohei's were Warrior Monks, that's what the RL word means, but the OA class wasn't specifically Oriental in nature, they don't even exist in Rokugan, they have some Ki abilities but as per the above - Ki has a very different and loose meaning.
Rokugan was not a catch all for "Oriental Stuff." Rokugan was a specific setting, dealing with the Legend of the Five Rings and a fantasy version of fuedal Japan. The class itself, however, is fundamentally Eastern.
We don't know that for sure, you and others only assume that its true because the only Ki powered class we have is the Monk.
And because a writer described the Monk as having martial arts special effects. I'm sure someone could get you the reference.
All we know about the 4E monk is that they "harness the power of their soul energy (or Ki)". Page 54 of the PHB says that much, and there have been other sources (which you can find yourself) that explain that Ki isn't going to be people punching people with martial arts.
And the existance of Ki meaning something other than punching people is relevant how? I never claimed it would be just about punching people. Wuxia has all kinds of crazy magic in it, nevermind anime and its 18751687 versions of swords made of your soul and all that stuff. That stuff is still coming from non-Wastern cultures, which has been my point all along.
The Power of the Soul is key to Magic of Incarnum, its also referenced in other classes in 3E and we do not know how Ki will be applied in 4E.
Agreed. So...?
We also know that Incarnum borrowed heavily from Indian influences (another non-Western source), so even if its included, my points are not invalidated.
We don't even know what the 4E Monk will be like, you're assuming it's going to be punching people with unarmed attacks when it may even be projecting Ki as a Force (which again might be considered oriental in flavour but isn't specifically limited to Oriental influence).
First of all, we do know it will involve punching people in the face and projecting Ki as a Force or however you want to say it. We know that about the Monk. What we don't know is what the other Ki classes will do beyond just speculation.
And, I would like to point out that the Ki projection is, in fact, rooted in non-Western cultures. I'm not even really sure how you could argue it isn't.
And because a writer described the Monk as having martial arts special effects. I'm sure someone could get you the reference.
anywhere in particular?
You have no evidence for your assumptions.
Your assuming oriental influence equates to a class being Oriental in alignment, any class can take influence from anywhere.
You can't seperate RL meanings from Fantasy applications of those words. Sohei and Ki are descriptions, names and most importantly free for interpretation.
Yes, in 4E, unless you actually use divine power, you're not actually using divine power. Same with Ki, we don't know what it is or what it does or how it'll be applied. We do know it doesn't have to be limited to oriental influences or result in oriental classes.
Projection of Ki / Chi is rooted is of eastern origin, projection of soul energy isn't. We don't know what 4E Ki / Soul energy does. Even if the monk does end up punching people with special effects, we don't know what his special effects will look like or what kinds of martial arts he'll be using or if it'll be unarmed or what. We don't know anything.
Projection of Ki / Chi is rooted is of eastern origin, projection of soul energy isn't.
Projection of soul energy is non-Western. Please describe a Western source for projection of soul energy that is not already better filled by Divine, Primal, or even Arcane.
And further, just to clarify, do you at least agree that the Ki classes will not/cannot be racist?
Look up post-colonial orientalism. By making "Asian" the exotic other, that gains its power from its otherness, you exclude the Asian from being able to attain the same status as the west. By then conflating all Asian groups under one essential label, Japanese, you question their validity of identity. You stop them from being able to define their own identity, and instead impose your choice of identity upon them. You are using the orient to orient a western identity. This identity is exclusionary, because you do not allow the orient to become one with the west as a common human culture. Instead, the orient must be an exotic other, an other that is diametrically opposed to the west. God forbid an eastern fighter is just that, a fighter.
This post makes Ember cry.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/3E_Interview_ToddL_2.asp
Q: Will we see an Eastern or Asian influence on the look of D&D now that monks are back in the game?
A: Given that many of their weapons are derived from Asian types, and that their dress is different from the armor of the Euro-fighter types, they were bound to have something of an Asian influence to their look. But we specifically made NONE of the iconic Monk characters Asian, while also making some of the NON-Monk characters Asian for the same reason: "Monk" is a skill set, not a race or ethnic group. Sam and I were very clear on that from the beginning, and were happy to learn that the R&D guys agreed.
I see no reason to think that any of this has changed.
This post makes Ember cry.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/3E_Interview_ToddL_2.asp
I see no reason to think that any of this has changed.
I agree.
Can we stop it with all this 'The Sky is Falling' bullcrap about the Ki power source now, please?
This post makes Ember cry.
It would only make him cry if I was saying that D&D used orientalized classes. I didn't say that. I was just responding to mplindustries statement that "oriental" classes will never be racist unless you use explicit racism. Implicit racism is also a form of racism, despite it not being explicit. Orientalism is a form of implicit racism. It is very easy to implement orientalist tendencies via the inclusion of "Ki" class, if they are done "wrong," and by wrong I mean in an implicitly racist orientalist manner (in which standard western norms gain "mystical power" for being eastern, and eastern always equates to Japanese).
I agree.
Can we stop it with all this 'The Sky is Falling' bullcrap about the Ki power source now, please?
For the record, just because I got implicated as taking part in the "sky is falling" bullcrap with this last string of quotes, I want to note that I have not. I stated with my very first post on this thread:
Even if every single Ki class is an extreme example of post-colonial orientalism (and is thus both inherently racist, and fairly silly) it still won't ruin D&D. If you don't like the Ki classes, you don't have to use them.
That being said, I seriously hope that the shape/form of the Ki classes in 4e will not be orientalist (and I am not saying it was in 3e).
This might come as a surprise to some, but people who want monks in D&D are not dieing to play a character with darker skin, almond shaped eyes, and a funny accent. What they really want are new mechanics associated with a new class. People who want to play a martial character who can sneak around plunging daggers in the backs of enemies will play rogues. If the same players, however want to play a kick butt warrior who channels his inner energy into his attacks to do great amounts of damage and status effects with his bare fists, then they have to wait until that class is made.
This is fantasy. I see no reason why one player should be allowed to summon a large floating disk or fly up a wall while another player isn't allowed to use inner energy to help him run up a wall. I have always felt that the argument that D&D is Eurocentric and that ninja who run up walls were first imagined in Japan is a weak argument. Again, I don't want to play a ninja so that I can make my dragonborn look Japanese; I want to play a ninja so I can do cool things that the rules don't yet allow. Who cares where these ideas first came from. Jean val Jean could scale walls in Les Miserables, does that mean his character is Japanese and shouldn't be in a European fantasy? Let players get their new mechanics and accept that D&D is a world where awesome stuff happens regardless of where the ideas for those awesome things originated.
Thanks for making my point. Now lets not fuel this idiotic thread any more.
Thanks for making my point. Now lets not fuel this idiotic thread any more.
Why? We still haven't solved anything!
Why? We still haven't solved anything!
What did you expect to solve here?
What did you expect to solve here?
I'm not even sure what the PROBLEM was.
Since I'm tired of the whole, "Katanas can cut through M1 Main Abram Tanks, and render AK-47's absolutely useless and can destroy a claymore sword just by touching it!"
I know a lot of these are the types some of my older relatives might describe all as "silly gwai lo" or what others might call weeaboos.
anywhere in particular?
You have no evidence for your assumptions.
Actually, it's true, one of the designers (Mike Mearls or Heinsoo, I believe) stated that the Ki power source is based on Wuxia type action. I'm sure one of the lovely members of these beards will be able to find the exact quote.
That doesn't necessarily mean that all Ki classes will be Asian/Oriental in theme and title.
Projection of soul energy is non-Western. Please describe a Western source for projection of soul energy that is not already better filled by Divine, Primal, or even Arcane.
OK, this won't do anything for the discussion, but I can't pass on this baited hook. "The Force," as it is described by Yoda, seems to be more soul energy than anything else, but a cheddar monk would probably be more suited as a psionics class than a ki class. Now I know that someone will state that George Lucas got the idea for his movie from Akira Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress, but George Lucas claims that the movie only inspired the point of view from which his movie was told (from the prospective of the lowest beings in society, droids). Anyway, I just wanted to throw that out.
Am I wrong? No. But then again it's easy to misconstrue power source from thematic. That's what's going on here. Play HERO or GURPS. A energy blast isn't just a energy blast, it's a fire bolt, an ice beam, puppies on a stick. But mechanically it's going to be XYZ.
That said, I get a strong feeling we're going to see a lot of Yoga Flame, Hadoken style fun from the KI classes. That, thematically will be sweet.
OK, this won't do anything for the discussion, but I can't pass on this baited hook. "The Force," as it is described by Yoda, seems to be more soul energy than anything else, but a cheddar monk would probably be more suited as a psionics class than a ki class. Now I know that someone will state that George Lucas got the idea for his movie from Akira Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress, but George Lucas claims that the movie only inspired the point of view from which his movie was told (from the prospective of the lowest beings in society, droids). Anyway, I just wanted to throw that out.
I did not intend to bait anyone, but I can respond to this. The Force, honestly, is very much drawn from Taoist influences. In fact, I'd say that the Force is one of the best examples of Westernized Ki. But its still non-Western in origin.
Actually, 'projection of soul energy' isn't non-Western. Well, it's not a Western idea, but it's also not really an Eastern idea either, because ki != soul. Or at least it didn't, until Eastern and Western ideas were rather sloppily shoved into each other fairly recently.
Well, not quite. You're using the western definition of Soul and then comparing it to the Eastern Ki. Historically, the East did not have the same concept of soul as the West. Remember how they were animists until they got Hinduism/Buddhism instead of a monotheistic religion with a personal god that cares? In the East, your soul gets reincarnated, but that soul is not the same as a Western soul that goes to heaven or whatever you believe. I'd say, honestly, that the Eastern concepts of soul and Ki have been entwined for quite some time.
Magic and Ki are similar, but not the same.
Magic is taking external energies and bending, reshaping, and/or building them into what you want them to be (i.e. fireballs, bolts of energy; etc.) Wizards learn from books, Clerics & Paladins are granted powers from divine beings, and Warlocks binds themselves to a higher power.
Ki is learning that there are internal energies inside of you and learning how to bend, reshape, and.or building them into what you want them to be (i.e. fireballs, bolts of energy; etc.) Monks learn through self study and write their truths within themselves, samurai find divine power of a sort in their own souls, and etc, etc...
Where this breaks down is the sorcerer though. Then again, the sorcerer doesn't have control over their energies, so I suppose a sorcerer is born with the power, but doesn't have the self mastery to completely control those energies.
As others have said, I hope Ki doesn't become the "oriental power source." There is a large variety of real world inspiration to choose from for ki such as the various Sutras from Indian mystics, Friar Tuck as an example of a non-Eastern monk/martial artist, and many others. I think the whole picture will look better if we have more colors to choose from; art -martial or otherwise- doesn't come from only one place.
I like that the Force was mentioned. I actually brought up the "Ki Jedi" as an idea for a Ki class in a different thread.
my other post
In that case, I'd say that Psionics will be in the 3rd PHB since (IIRC) it will be coming out around the same time as some of the Eberron stuff. I also think that the Shadow power souce will come along sometime soon since some of the options in Martial Power make reference to the Shadow keyword.
At any rate, I think I agree with the camp that not all Ki classes should be "Asian." Even the monk need not be completely "Asian." I have nothing against Asian culture (I'm actually a rather big fan of some of it); I just feel that there's a wide variety of cultures and ideas to pull from; as such, I'd like to see more variety make it into the Ki concept.
Somewhere along the line someone mentioned Indian culture (India, not Native American.) I'd like to see some of the Ki classes come from there; I could imagine a concept similar to Dhalsim from Street Fighter or perhaps a class which uses various "Sutras" to perform their powers. I suppose that technically India is considered part of Asia, but the way that "Asian" is being used in this thread leads me to assume that "Asian" is somewhat the same as saying Japanese or Chinese in this thread...if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.
I might take some heat for mentioning this, but I also imagine that one of the Ki classes could be similar to a Jedi. They could focus their Ki into a Ki-Blade or something similar.
So, what does that lead me too? hmm...well...
Monk: Ki Striker maybe with some minor control abilities if Grab is opened up a little more.
Ki Controller: This might sound crazy, but I could actually see two versions of the monk. One version would be mainly a striker and minor in controller; the other would be more similar to what I mentioned earlier with Dhalsim. This second version would be a controller via being able to channel their ki into fireballs and various other crowd control abilities and minor in striker. These two classes would be sort of the mirror of each other with one being more physical and one being more mystical. The 3E Elf was split into the 4E Eladrin and 4E Elf to better cover both of the commonly held Elf stereotypes in the game, so why not try doing the same thing with a class? Depending on how you built your monk in 3E, you could wind up with very different characters. Since 4E seems to have a bit more of a narrow focus for what classes can do, I think the idea to make two "monk" classes could work. If someone didn't like the split and wanted both worlds they can always multiclass.
Ki Jedi: My first thought is leader/defender, but I'm not sure if there would be room for another class of that nature since Warlord and Paladin already cover a lot of that area. It could possibly have some striker qualities. PHB 1 had two martial strikers, so there's no reason to think that other power sources won't double up on certain roles. Perhaps the Ki-Blade idea could be a stronger version of Pact-Blades. The Jedi takes time to attune themselves to a blade which allows them to use it as an implement for certain attacks. There would need to be a good way to make this different from the Sword Mage though. Perhaps we could borrow an idea from the Wizard and have different implement masteries; depending on the fighting style which the Jedi uses, there would be different benefits. This could also cover a lot of what the Samurai would be while still being different enough from a Samurai to not shoehorn the class into being purely "Asian."
edit: I was responding to an earlier post, so I didn't see that so many other people had already came to the Indian idea. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who would think that was cool.
There's nothing wrong with the monk, but I don't think its the monk we're worried about.
And honestly, power source barely matters anyway.
You know what my power source is? Puppies. When I cast a Spell? No, I'm throwing puppies at people. When I hit them with a sword? Nope, puppy jaws bitting as I swipe the puppies in my hands past people. Do I sneak better? No, it's the distraction of Puppies that makes people not notice me.
The Dog-Welder from Section 8 wants to have a talk with you.
Well, not quite. You're using the western definition of Soul and then comparing it to the Eastern Ki. Historically, the East did not have the same concept of soul as the West. Remember how they were animists until they got Hinduism/Buddhism instead of a monotheistic religion with a personal god that cares? In the East, your soul gets reincarnated, but that soul is not the same as a Western soul that goes to heaven or whatever you believe. I'd say, honestly, that the Eastern concepts of soul and Ki have been entwined for quite some time.
The connection between 'ki' and reincarnation is basically nonexistant. Mainstream Buddhism completely rejects the idea of a soul at all. (Reincarnation is pretty weird and requires a lot of metaphysical explanation in Buddhism.) Hinduism does not, but the concept is completely distinct from that of ki. But they are Asian, so I guess it's okay to ignore distinctions.
I'm not seeing it.
Ki is an Asian concept. Ki use will probably be used to define some Asian style characters. So what? Play balance in 4e being what it is, I'm sure they will kick just the same amount of posterior that all the martial, divine, arcane, primal, etc. etc. characters do.
Honestly, so what?
I'm not sure what exactly ends up being 'racist' about taking the concept of ki and applying it to oriental type characters. Is there some sort of implication that the classes that use ki are inferior in some fashion? Or is anyone saying that ki source classes will be evil? That they should be wiped off the earth? Perhaps that they should not be allowed in some neighborhoods and need to use separate washrooms, or are all only fit to be used in massive public works programs where they eventually die, but who cares, they're just ki-users?
I'm not seeing it.
Ki is an Asian concept. Ki use will probably be used to define some Asian style characters. So what? Play balance in 4e being what it is, I'm sure they will kick just the same amount of posterior that all the martial, divine, arcane, primal, etc. etc. characters do.
Honestly, so what?
As I said before:
Look up post-colonial orientalism. By making "Asian" the exotic other, that gains its power from its otherness, you exclude the Asian from being able to attain the same status as the west. By then conflating all Asian groups under one essential label, Japanese, you question their validity of identity. You stop them from being able to define their own identity, and instead impose your choice of identity upon them. You are using the orient to orient a western identity. This identity is exclusionary, because you do not allow the orient to become one with the west as a common human culture. Instead, the orient must be an exotic other, an other that is diametrically opposed to the west. God forbid an eastern fighter is just that, a fighter.
Not all forms of racism are explicit. Some are implicit. If the Ki power source is just a bunch of western classes renamed, with some slightly different powers, made exotic via a "Ki power source," and representative only of a single Asian culture which then stands in for all Asian cultures, it will be implicitly racist.
I'm not saying that that is what the Ki power source will be... I think the idea of making it the wuxia power source is very cool personally. But it COULD be done in a racist manner. I'm not saying that it could be done intentionally, that is obvious. I mean that if the writers are not thoughtful of their representation it COULD be done in a racist manner accidentally, due to a lack of forethought of the cognitive consequences of their creation. Its not that this racist manner will be so explicitly racist that it will be offensive. Rather it will be implicitly racist in a manner that has both been documented, and outgrown. Done wrong, the Ki power source will seem very silly. I think that is what people are a little afraid of. They don't want to see it done this way.
Honestly though, 3e was not that bad for this. There were a few elements I found a little problematic, but not in any major way. I think people are worrying a little more than necessary.
I'm not sure what exactly ends up being 'racist' about taking the concept of ki and applying it to oriental type characters. Is there some sort of implication that the classes that use ki are inferior in some fashion? Or is anyone saying that ki source classes will be evil? That they should be wiped off the earth? Perhaps that they should not be allowed in some neighborhoods and need to use separate washrooms, or are all only fit to be used in massive public works programs where they eventually die, but who cares, they're just ki-users?
I'm not seeing it.
Ki is an Asian concept. Ki use will probably be used to define some Asian style characters. So what? Play balance in 4e being what it is, I'm sure they will kick just the same amount of posterior that all the martial, divine, arcane, primal, etc. etc. characters do.
Honestly, so what?
Correction: 'Ki' is a Japanese word for a fairly common concept. It's essentially animism combined with some rudimentary medical "knowledge."
Also, the reason why people don't want the Ki power source to be the Asian power source is pretty simple, and already well detailed.
Shoving a lot of Asian concepts into one power source, regardless of any actual relationship between them, is an example of prejudice. It's a gross oversimplication of several cultures. There are many concepts in Asia that fit very well into Martial, Arcane, Elemental, Shadow, or other power sources, but to dismiss all that and imply that in Asia, Ki is the only way to do things... that could offend some people. Or, worse, be corny and lame and generally result in bad material.
Shoving a lot of Asian concepts into one power source, regardless of any actual relationship between them, is an example of prejudice. It's a gross oversimplification of several cultures. There are many concepts in Asia that fit very well into Martial, Arcane, Elemental, Shadow, or other power sources, but to dismiss all that and imply that in Asia, Ki is the only way to do things... that could offend some people. Or, worse, be corny and lame and generally result in bad material.
This is very well stated.
OK, looking at the classes in 3e Oriental Adventures and guessing at sources...
Fighter-Martial
Monk-Ki
Ranger-Martial
Rogue-Martial
Samurai-Martial/Ki
Shaman-Primal
Shugenja-Elemental/Divine
Sohei-Divine
Sorcerer-Arcane
Wu Jen-Elemental/Arcane
Want more? Prestige Classes?
Battle Maiden-Martial/Primal
Bear Warrior-Primal
Blade Dancer-Martial
Eunuch Warlock-Arcane
Henshin Mystic-Ki
Iaijutsu Master-Martial
Blah blah blah...
I think it's pretty obvious there will be Asian style characters that have no relation to the Ki source whatsoever. I'd bet that if there are any Rokugan-style Ninjas (The ones that were all part of The Living Darkness), they would be Shadow source.
What I do see, however, is that Ki is useable to express a power source for classes with a particularly Asian style that may not fit into other categories, like the Monk, or the Void Disciple.
And I don't see that as racist.
EDIT: Hell, there's only 4 classes I mentioned up there that I see as even remotely 'Ki'. I really don't think you have anything to worry about that Oriental Adventures 4e will come out and every class will be PS:Ki.
The issue is, people have different conceptions of what will fit and what won't. Monk is pretty much the one class people agree on. Samurai and Ninja are occasionally suggested, though some people think they aren't distinct enough from Fighters and Rogues. This issue can be solved by empathizing the "mystical" aspects of these classes (such as ninja magic or creating vacuum waves with sword slashes) to give them a different feel.
Of course, Ninja could also work as a Shadow source class with the proper flavor, so we won't know for sure until we see what they have in mind for the Ki source.
What I do see, however, is that Ki is useable to express a power source for classes with a particularly Asian style that may not fit into other categories, like the Monk, or the Void Disciple.
And I don't see that as racist.
Void Disciple is Elemental, and not really all that inherently Asian. Monk... has been argued extensively already. But there probably are some conceivable concepts that fit into Ki better than anything else. Will they be inherently Asian-flavored? Or will they be as setting-neutral as possible? Or will a bunch of random Asian-themed concepts be shoved into a Ki power source without rhyme or reason, other than the popularity of what amounts to Japanese superhero comics?
Especially long forum threads; I read everything, then I start to write and I just spin off on my own tangent.
/headscratch
The connection between 'ki' and reincarnation is basically nonexistant. Mainstream Buddhism completely rejects the idea of a soul at all. (Reincarnation is pretty weird and requires a lot of metaphysical explanation in Buddhism.) Hinduism does not, but the concept is completely distinct from that of ki. But they are Asian, so I guess it's okay to ignore distinctions.
I specifically talked about the Buddhist idea that there is no self and that their definition of soul is not the same as Western definitions of soul. That was actually my whole argument there. The word "soul" does not have one definition. If you take soul to mean essence or something like that, it applies to Ki quite nicely. Also, I have shown again and again how Ki and Prana are the same thing, and grew out of each other, which absolutely puts India on the list of Ki cultures.
Not all forms of racism are explicit. Some are implicit. If the Ki power source is just a bunch of western classes renamed, with some slightly different powers, made exotic via a "Ki power source," and representative only of a single Asian culture which then stands in for all Asian cultures, it will be implicitly racist.
The "which then stands in for all Asian cultures" is the jump that I've disagreed with. Implicit racism only applies if you read into it. Even if WotC puts Samurai, Ninja, Shugenja, and Wu Jen as the four Ki classes, explain to me how you could make the jump to saying that those four classes represent all of Asia? Thats the crazy part in all of this. Four classes with Japanese names represents, uh, four classes.
I completely believe that all classes in the Ki source will be Asian in origin. However, it is absurd to believe that all classes of Asian origin will be Ki. Just by the simple fact that there are Asian Fighters, Rogues, Barbarians, etc., proves that. Just because all As are Bs does not mean that all Bs are As.
Shoving a lot of Asian concepts into one power source, regardless of any actual relationship between them, is an example of prejudice.
If a class has the Ki power source, it has a relationship with other classes from the same power source.
I specifically talked about the Buddhist idea that there is no self and that their definition of soul is not the same as Western definitions of soul. That was actually my whole argument there. The word "soul" does not have one definition. If you take soul to mean essence or something like that, it applies to Ki quite nicely. Also, I have shown again and again how Ki and Prana are the same thing, and grew out of each other, which absolutely puts India on the list of Ki cultures.
The word 'soul' has a pretty vague definition, but it is, in fact, a definition. The word 'atman' is the equivalent word in Sanskrit used in the Hindu belief system. The word 'anatta' is the Pali word Buddhists use to say that they don't have one. These concepts are not related to qi, chi, ki, hei, khi, gi, or even energeia or elan vital. One is spiritual, and the other is a physical animating force. The willingness to confuse the two is just plain intellectual sloppiness. Unfortunately, WotC has made that error rather publicly. Hopefully they'll correct it when the time comes to do a little background reading.
Basically, what you're saying here is that if you take one word and redefine it as something it doesn't mean at all, it would work. And I agree. Making up your own definitions is a great way to get words to mean what you want.
The "which then stands in for all Asian cultures" is the jump that I've disagreed with. Implicit racism only applies if you read into it. Even if WotC puts Samurai, Ninja, Shugenja, and Wu Jen as the four Ki classes, explain to me how you could make the jump to saying that those four classes represent all of Asia? Thats the crazy part in all of this. Four classes with Japanese names represents, uh, four classes.
I completely believe that all classes in the Ki source will be Asian in origin. However, it is absurd to believe that all classes of Asian origin will be Ki. Just by the simple fact that there are Asian Fighters, Rogues, Barbarians, etc., proves that. Just because all As are Bs does not mean that all Bs are As.
If a class has the Ki power source, it has a relationship with other classes from the same power source.
Hopefully the conceptual relationship is a little deeper than that. Because slopping several Asian concepts into the Ki power source just because they're Asian, with little regard to what those concepts represent, is both offensive and lame.
The "which then stands in for all Asian cultures" is the jump that I've disagreed with. Implicit racism only applies if you read into it. Even if WotC puts Samurai, Ninja, Shugenja, and Wu Jen as the four Ki classes, explain to me how you could make the jump to saying that those four classes represent all of Asia? Thats the crazy part in all of this. Four classes with Japanese names represents, uh, four classes.
Except, if those are the four Ki classes that WotC chooses, then they really are just western classes but "othered" due to their Easterness. The Samurai is essentially a fighter, but eastern and therefore Ki. A Ninja is pretty much a rogue, but eastern and therefore Ki. A Wu Jen is pretty much a wizard, but eastern and therefore Ki. A Shugenja is pretty much a cleric or a shaman, but eastern and therefore Ki. There is nothing about the Ki classes which needs to be represented by a Ki power source. The only thing that would mark those classes as different from their western counterparts is the fact that they are eastern. Choosing to then lump them together because of that is, as someone else has already stated, and example of prejudice.
Shoving a lot of Asian concepts into one power source, regardless of any actual relationship between them, is an example of prejudice.
Doing what you just described would be a prime example of how the Ki power source COULD be made racist through the concept of orientalism. It doesn't matter that in your personal and subjective mind you say, "oh, well, the eastern land could have western classes too!" As the eastern classes you just named are essentially very similar to western counterparts, but then placed in the newly created Ki power source (instead of the martial, divine, and arcane power sources) because they are eastern, you have committed an implicitly racist action. You have stated that everything with explicit eastern flavor must be contained in a single cognitive location, despite the relationship between the various elements contained inside this cognitive location. Meanwhile, western classes are free to be martial, arcane, primal, divine, and the like.
You have done exactly what post-colonial texts that exhibit the practice of orientalism have done. You make "Asian" the exotic other, that gains its power from its otherness, you exclude the Asian from being able to attain the same status as the west. This is because their classes are not allowed to be grouped into the same power sources as the western classes, even when those power sources logically fit their needs. In order to attain the same grouping as the west an eastern figure must give up its easterness and play a western class. You have also conflated all Asian groups under one essential label, and thus you question their validity of identity. To be Asian in flavor one must be Ki. To be Ki they must, essentially, be Japanese. You stop them from being able to define their own identity, and instead impose your choice of identity upon them. They can escape that identity, but to do so they must essentially swear off their easterness and instead play a western class. In many ways, this has historicaly allegorical resonance to the treatment of the Japanese by North American countries during World War Two. Regardless of this resonance, you are using the orient to orient a western identity. This identity is exclusionary, because you do not allow the orient to become one with the west as a common human culture. Instead, the orient must be an exotic other, an other that is diametrically opposed to the west. God forbid an eastern fighter is just that, a fighter. Instead an eastern flavored fighter must be a Ki power source Samurai. And, it is sort of implicit that to be an eastern fighter one must play this class, because now two "fighter" classes exist. The western fighter, and the eastern Samurai. Because both exist, and it is not assumed that all fighters will play a fighter regardless of their national flavor, the result is that one must make a choice: eastern flavor and the othering Ki powersource, or western flavor and the logical martial power source.
Your example was a perfect example of how the Ki power source can be made racist, essentially an intellectual ghetto or concentration camp for classes of eastern flavor. To avoid this all Ki classes must be built around a similar cognitive concept, and this concept can not be their "Asianess." The concept must be their control of the supernatural power of anima that flows through their body. And this concept should not be a thinly painted veneer that covers an essentially western concept, but rather a core feature of the class concept. The monk is a perfect example of a class that SHOULD be a Ki class. Likewise, a Sohei would be another good example of a class that fits this concept. I don't know about Ninja, maybe maybe not, depending on what aspects of the ninja mythology the class focuses on. Samurai, however, should be nothing more than a Paragon Path, and one that should probably be available to fighters. Wu Jen are very clearly an Arcane or Elemental class. Shugunja, likewise, are pretty clearly a Divine, Primal, or Elemental class. To take all such class concepts and then group them into the Ki power source is to turn the Ki power source into an Asian ghetto, and that is racist.
All I want is to see cool classes with interesting power and some flashy ability!
Bravo. You just drove home a point that I've been trying to make since the Ki powersource came to light, but in a much more eloquent way.Cyber-Dave,
No, he talked a lot of PC BS.
Ki is an Eastern concept, and not just Japanese, by the way, it at least encompasses India, China, and some aspects of Korea. There are no Western bases for Ki. So, yes, it may be Westernized, but it will still have origins in Asia.
This whole silly racism thing is about class names.
What about function? If we get a Ki defender that can make melee attacks at range, teleport and hit squares he teleports through, stomp and knock people in a line prone, sheath their weapon in energy, create a whirlwind from his sword, make a very powerful attack that does not actually deal damage until the next round, or any number of other mystical sword stuff, would that satisfy you? Would that not be a good enough Ki class? Now who cares if it gets called Samurai, Swordsage, Sohei, or whatever else? If thats the case, then a Samurai is not an exotic fighter, its the Ki fighter, and its not in any way more or less offensive than the Paladin being a Divine fighter is.
In claiming this stuff is racist, you're assuming Ki won't be supernatural. You're denying the Ki cultures their flavor by claiming they should just use Western things. Furthermore, you're also setting this up as "specifically Asian" and "Specifically Western" rather than "specifically Asian" and "not specifically anything." Fighter, Cleric, Ranger, Rogue, Wizard, Barbarian, etc., etc. are universal, not just Western.
The word 'soul' has a pretty vague definition, but it is, in fact, a definition. The word 'atman' is the equivalent word in Sanskrit used in the Hindu belief system. The word 'anatta' is the Pali word Buddhists use to say that they don't have one. These concepts are not related to qi, chi, ki, hei, khi, gi, or even energeia or elan vital. One is spiritual, and the other is a physical animating force. The willingness to confuse the two is just plain intellectual sloppiness. Unfortunately, WotC has made that error rather publicly. Hopefully they'll correct it when the time comes to do a little background reading.
Sort of. Its also called "syncretizing." There are no English words that really describe those concepts correctly, and so in an effort to relate these concepts to a primarily English speaking audience, they syncretize the concept with something familiar to their audience.
Hopefully the conceptual relationship is a little deeper than that. Because slopping several Asian concepts into the Ki power source just because they're Asian, with little regard to what those concepts represent, is both offensive and lame.
This has been said so many times, and I just don't understand why anyone would think this would be done. What are people expecting here? Eunuch Sorcerers to be Ki just because they're in wuxia? Really? This is absurd. In 3.5, Wu Jen used Arcane magic, Shugenja used Divine magic, Monk used Ki. Why would this change?
No, he talked a lot of PC BS.
Ki is an Eastern concept, and not just Japanese, by the way, it at least encompasses India, China, and some aspects of Korea. There are no Western bases for Ki. So, yes, it may be Westernized, but it will still have origins in Asia.
This whole silly racism thing is about class names.
What about function? If we get a Ki defender that can make melee attacks at range, teleport and hit squares he teleports through, stomp and knock people in a line prone, sheath their weapon in energy, create a whirlwind from his sword, make a very powerful attack that does not actually deal damage until the next round, or any number of other mystical sword stuff, would that satisfy you? Would that not be a good enough Ki class? Now who cares if it gets called Samurai, Swordsage, Sohei, or whatever else? If thats the case, then a Samurai is not an exotic fighter, its the Ki fighter, and its not in any way more or less offensive than the Paladin being a Divine fighter is.
In claiming this stuff is racist, you're assuming Ki won't be supernatural. You're denying the Ki cultures their flavor by claiming they should just use Western things. Furthermore, you're also setting this up as "specifically Asian" and "Specifically Western" rather than "specifically Asian" and "not specifically anything." Fighter, Cleric, Ranger, Rogue, Wizard, Barbarian, etc., etc. are universal, not just Western.
If Western ideas are able to be depicted by using universal mechanics flavored to taste, why do Eastern ideas need their own flavor built into the class? Are they just too weird? Because that, to me, seems questionable. Your conclusion is strange. 'Denying the Ki cultures their flavor' shouldn't be an issue, because they would be the only ones with specially flavored material.
"No Western bases for ki" is false. Animus, energeia, and elan vital are synonymous.
Sort of. Its also called "syncretizing." There are no English words that really describe those concepts correctly, and so in an effort to relate these concepts to a primarily English speaking audience, they syncretize the concept with something familiar to their audience.
I thought I just did that, and more accurately. Life energy, physical animating force, etc. These things don't mean soul, but they describe 'ki' accurately.
This has been said so many times, and I just don't understand why anyone would think this would be done. What are people expecting here? Eunuch Sorcerers to be Ki just because they're in wuxia? Really? This is absurd. In 3.5, Wu Jen used Arcane magic, Shugenja used Divine magic, Monk used Ki. Why would this change?
Because there's never been an explicit power source for each class, nor any need to have several classes for each one. Now, the situation has changed. What concepts are they going to use to pad the Ki power source out, and how?
http://www.critical-hits.com/2008/08/19/critical-hits-podcast-8-interview-with-rob-heinsoo/
You all should really listen to this podcast, about half way into it Rob Heinsoo starts talking about this very topic.
http://www.critical-hits.com/2008/08/19/critical-hits-podcast-8-interview-with-rob-heinsoo/
What I take away from this is that no one really knows at this point. Not unexpected.
Asian martial-artsy stuff is dreadfully overdone in modern pop-culture action movies and television anyway. Additionally, I've always privately thought it was a ever so slightly pathetic when young Westerners play Asian characters--kinda like when you see some scruffy white kid dressed up as a wanna-be "samurai" at an anime convention or something; it just reeks of culture envy, and that's sad. And elves/dwarves/halflings as "monks?" Well, that's just goofy; I can't wrap my mind around such a silly concept. It's just better if I ban D&D "monks" and aall upcoming "Ki" classes from my games altogether.
Asian martial-artsy stuff is dreadfully overdone in modern pop-culture action movies and television anyway. Additionally, I've always privately thought it was a ever so slightly pathetic when young Westerners play Asian characters--kinda like when you see some scruffy white kid dressed up as a wanna-be "samurai" at an anime convention or something; it just reeks of culture envy, and that's sad.
I never got why white kids are like that. I'm Asian and I don't spend all of my time wanting to be black or white. Though maybe one day I'll do the wannabe thing by sitting on a sofa on the front lawn, drinking beer and throwing the cans onto the grass under a big confederate flag covering my window, while threatening to whup that said samurai kid...
No, he talked a lot of PC BS.
I think someone needs to set up a fallacy definition somewhere. As soon as someone states "you just talked a lot of PC BS" they loose an argument automatically, just like someone looses an argument automatically for likening their opponent to Hitler due to the fact that their opponent disagrees with them. Thing is, the "that's a load of PC BS" argument is one that is made by only one group of people, people who have a higher hierarchical position in a socially offensive situation. (The higher position always going to the one who is committing the offense, as any offense is essentially an act of degradation, an act of lowering in a Bakhtinian sense of the word, minus the Bakhtinian implication of regeneration.) It is the argument used once a person no longer has any logical ground on which to defend their statement, but they don't want to change their position, nor do they wish to take into consideration the subjective and emotional positions of those whom they are offending. Based on that statement alone, I think its pretty clear that the Ki power source CAN be constructed as a very implicitly racist power source.
Ki is an Eastern concept, and not just Japanese, by the way, it at least encompasses India, China, and some aspects of Korea. There are no Western bases for Ki. So, yes, it may be Westernized, but it will still have origins in Asia.
You are right. Which is part of the reason why using Ki as the name for an eastern ghetto which is only populated by classes with Japanese names (Samurai, Ninja, Wu Jen, and Shugenja) would be an implicitly racist action. It would use only Japanese flavored classes to represent the flavor of the entirety of the eastern population. You can read my last few posts for reasons behind why this is a racist action.
This whole silly racism thing is about class names.
Racism is, in the linguistic space, always about names and the ability to name things. You are right, it is about class names, and because names and naming is where racism lives in the linguistic space, that is exactly where the producers must be particularly careful during their production of a Ki power source. Named uncarefully, the Ki powersource becomes orientalist and racist.
What about function? If we get a Ki defender that can make melee attacks at range, teleport and hit squares he teleports through, stomp and knock people in a line prone, sheath their weapon in energy, create a whirlwind from his sword, make a very powerful attack that does not actually deal damage until the next round, or any number of other mystical sword stuff, would that satisfy you? Would that not be a good enough Ki class?
Everything except for the "sheathing a weapon in energy." Energy attacks from Ki should be more along the lines of using a weapon to transfer animus from the body to a target using the weapon as a conduit. But yes, those abilities are perfectly acceptable Ki abilities.
Now who cares if it gets called Samurai, Swordsage, Sohei, or whatever else? If thats the case, then a Samurai is not an exotic fighter, its the Ki fighter, and its not in any way more or less offensive than the Paladin being a Divine fighter is.
And here is where your argument falls apart. Obviously people do care whether it is named a Samurai, swordsage, sohei, or whatever else. That is the point. We care. A samurai has certain specific historical connotations. It just means a fighter who is also a noble and who serves as a noble to the emperor. They were not monks. While they studied martial combat, their name does not come with strong connotations of the "mystic supernatural warrior," EXCEPT in orientalist fiction which others and exoticizes eastern figures. Sohei WERE monks. They were warrior monks. So while the name is Japanese, at least it has this going for it. And swordsage is a neutral term with no cultural connotations of any real sort. Its probably the best name for such a class. Both those names are (pretty much) acceptable. But to take the name Samurai and apply it to such a class is to other the historical concept of an eastern (noble) fighter. Once you do this, you use orientalism to create an Asian ghetto through naming, the very nature of linguistic racism. This is far more offensive then having a paladin be a divine fighter. Paladins are fighters who stick to a divine code. The popular and historical connotations of these names imply that. The popular and historical connotations of samurai do not paint them as supernatural warriors EXCEPT in othering and orientalist westernized fiction, or orientalist and westernized readings of eastern fiction.
In claiming this stuff is racist, you're assuming Ki won't be supernatural. You're denying the Ki cultures their flavor by claiming they should just use Western things. Furthermore, you're also setting this up as "specifically Asian" and "Specifically Western" rather than "specifically Asian" and "not specifically anything." Fighter, Cleric, Ranger, Rogue, Wizard, Barbarian, etc., etc. are universal, not just Western.
No, I am stating that taking eastern names that don't have connotations of supernatural ability in eastern fiction, and then making them supernatural due to an orientalist and othering western framework, is racist. That's why careful thought should go into the naming of such classes. And the rest of your argument here is rather silly. Denying an eastern culture by forcing them to take western things? Seriously? Do you not realize that if only ONE culture has something that is flavored "other," and all other cultures have the flavor "universal," you have just othered that one culture, you have just stuck that one culture into a cognitive ghetto? Do you actually not realize this?
What are people expecting here? Eunuch Sorcerers to be Ki just because they're in wuxia? Really? This is absurd. In 3.5, Wu Jen used Arcane magic, Shugenja used Divine magic, Monk used Ki. Why would this change?
If it doesn't I am sure people will be happy. Like I said with my very first post, I am not particularly worried. I have faith that everything will work out well. But to state that people have nothing to worry about, and that even if the producers take the game in the most racist path of development possible it still won't be racist, is a little silly. The Ki power source CAN be done in a racist manner. That doesn't mean it will be done in a racist manner. But some people are so used to seeing eastern things done in a racist manner when it comes to western fiction that they are a little apprehensive. Its understandable... though the original poster's post really isn't.
I'd rather not see D&D wander down this path. You can have it in your games and I won't care, but I don't like Asian-style "monks," samurai, etc. in my D&D.
You don't need to worry. When they release eastern classes, you don't need to allow them into your games.
I'd rather not see D&D wander down this path. You can have it in your games and I won't care, but I don't like Asian-style "monks," samurai, etc. in my D&D.
Asian martial-artsy stuff is dreadfully overdone in modern pop-culture action movies and television anyway. Additionally, I've always privately thought it was a ever so slightly pathetic when young Westerners play Asian characters--kinda like when you see some scruffy white kid dressed up as a wanna-be "samurai" at an anime convention or something; it just reeks of culture envy, and that's sad. And elves/dwarves/halflings as "monks?" Well, that's just goofy; I can't wrap my mind around such a silly concept. It's just better if I ban D&D "monks" and aall upcoming "Ki" classes from my games altogether.
See, this is why I wanted Monks as Martial, and no Ki power source. A Ki-powered Monk will likely be designed with a focus on their supernatural powers, making it much harder to play one as, say, a dwarven bare-fisted berserker, or some other concept that's easier to visualize than the Shaolin Shorty. The 3.5 Monk was designed based on some rather specific folklore, with allowances made for the rules structure, and it didn't turn out well. The 4E Monk needs to be as versatile as possible, and I'm not convinced that the Ki thing won't eliminate a lot of martial artist archetypes. I hope, but we'll see when the time comes.
The Samurai, also, is going to be hard to justify. If there is a Samurai class, it clearly can't be anything remotely approaching a historical version, because we've already got those. So they're likely to have a lot of SOOPER-SWORDSMAN!!! types of abilities based on certain fiction tropes. Unfortunately, such a narrow conceptual focus could very well result in a lack of viable archetypes to play the class with.
Psst, Cyber-Dave while I agree with your posts and I am very grateful for you basically verbalizing my stance much better than I could hope to, I think you do have one thing wrong. At the moment, the indication is that Ki power comes from the soul not the animus. A minor thing for sure, but it is still important to note.
;) :P 
- A Ki power source, but only a tentative concept to associate with it, "soul";
- A number of class concepts with the same origin as Ki, but which are not Ki;
- A game which tries to be culturally neutral, but with an "Asian" subculture represented by a handful of firmly-Japanese ideas (and the occasional Chinese one);
- An obsolete game concept called "Incarnum", which shares the same tentative concept as Ki ("soul"), but doesn't at all resemble Ki;
- Almost no information from the developers on the topic of Ki; and,
- No assumption of real-world historical or cultural accuracy.
All we can do is argue, at this point.
What a prickly problem! We have:
- A Ki power source, but only a tentative concept to associate with it, "soul";
- A number of class concepts with the same origin as Ki, but which are not Ki;
- A game which tries to be culturally neutral, but with an "Asian" subculture represented by a handful of firmly-Japanese ideas (and the occasional Chinese one);
- An obsolete game concept called "Incarnum", which shares the same tentative concept as Ki ("soul"), but doesn't at all resemble Ki;
- Almost no information from the developers on the topic of Ki; and,
- No assumption of real-world historical or cultural accuracy.
All we can do is argue, at this point.
You, good sir, receive a
.Sorry about the bite in it. I could not resist. It is a good cookie!
Psst, Cyber-Dave while I agree with your posts and I am very grateful for you basically verbalizing my stance much better than I could hope to, I think you do have one thing wrong. At the moment, the indication is that Ki power comes from the soul not the animus. A minor thing for sure, but it is still important to note.
Of course, in the almost two years between the time between when that sidebar was written and when when the resulting product sees print, the devs might actually learn what the word 'ki' means. As it has been pointed out, there's a lot of silence on the topic.
It seems that people will call racism if there are no non-Asian Ki source classes.
So I tried to think of some specifically non-Asian classes that would fit a Ki source. At the same time, the class should not hit on a Martial, Arcane, Divine, Elemental, Psychic, Shadow, or Primal style source.
Ki source classes will have to be self reliant much like Martial powers are. I think we can all be pretty certain of the feel of the Psionic classes as well, supposing that they will have a style pretty similar to the Psionic classes of older editions.
This whole thing is pretty tough since most classes can obviously have the names and powers stripped off and they're almost exactly the same... the only real difference is in the small bonuses scattered throughout the classes.
This is a revelation! None of these names matter at all! (Tongue in cheek there)
I can make a class called Skald and assign it to the Ki source. I'll make Skald a Ki source Leader, and give the class heals and the ability to do extra healing at the cost of damaging themselves to a degree. Because I feel like it. My flavour? The Skald's poetry (abilities) draw so deeply on theit own soul that some of their powers actually transfer portions of their own soul's essence to that of their benefactor. What else can the Skald do? Does it matter? I could make Skald a defender and give them defender powers...
Basically all that you say you want is some Ki source classes that are not specifically Asian. Here's five that I have secretly known all along they will be making (ha): Dragoon, Metinuwak, Stoic Sage, Kabbalist, and Soulwarper. There you have it, five Ki source classes that are not Asian.
Done and done.
Seriously, all they have to do to make you happy is come up with some distinctly non-Asian Ki classes for you to be happy about it? These people make new classes like a sheep makes wool. I'm sure they'll come up with something.
"Okay, we've got the Ki power source. Obviously, we've got the Monk already, but we can't have a power source with only one class. What else can we use? Samurai? Sure, let's make that the Defender. Let's see... Wu Jen? Excellent, a controller. Oh, hey, Shugenja! There's our Leader."
The Wu Jen is at least as Arcane as any current Arcane class. Shugenja could be Divine, Elemental, or Primal, but definitely not Ki. There's more like this. Shoving them all into the Ki power source would be ridiculous.
I'm completely awake now, and I've thought about this issue some more...
It seems that people will call racism if there are no non-Asian Ki source classes.
I don't think anyone on this thread actually said that. In fact, I think most people on this thread said something very different: they said they don't want classes that would logically fit into an existing power source other than Ki to be made into a Ki power source class JUST because the class is Asian.
The Ki classes can all be Asian in flavor. However, they should not all be Ki class because they have Asian flavor, but rather because of the manner in which they manipulate power. The connotations of the class names should be either culturally neutral, or should have cultural/historical connotations that directly relates to eastern mysticism (such as the Monk, or Sohei). They should not randomly take eastern names that have little/nothing to do with eastern mysticism, transform it into a mystical class (because it is Asian in flavor), and then dump it into the Ki power source (as if the Ki power source were some sort of Asian ghetto).
...What most of us, I think, are afraid of is that this will happen:
"Okay, we've got the Ki power source. Obviously, we've got the Monk already, but we can't have a power source with only one class. What else can we use? Samurai? Sure, let's make that the Defender. Let's see... Wu Jen? Excellent, a controller. Oh, hey, Shugenja! There's our Leader."
The Wu Jen is at least as Arcane as any current Arcane class. Shugenja could be Divine, Elemental, or Primal, but definitely not Ki. There's more like this. Shoving them all into the Ki power source would be ridiculous.
This.
Except I think there's a good case to be made for the Wu Jen as an Elemental Controller. :P
This.
Except I think there's a good case to be made for the Wu Jen as an Elemental Controller. :P
That'd be acceptable too. Ki, though? Not so much.
I never got why white kids are like that. I'm Asian and I don't spend all of my time wanting to be black or white. Though maybe one day I'll do the wannabe thing by sitting on a sofa on the front lawn, drinking beer and throwing the cans onto the grass under a big confederate flag covering my window, while threatening to whup that said samurai kid...
Culture Envy exists to varying degrees in all cultures. The Japanese for example, have a strong envy of caucasian eyes/skin, as evidenced in anime.
Many cultures are envious of the American, Canadian, British, and/or Australian cultures/lifestyles - lest of all many "white" cultures being envious of Australia/Canada.
I assume the same holds true in the East, although I cannot site specific examples as I am not as familiar with their envy of other cultures, especially other asian/african cultures which they may be envious of.
And here is where your argument falls apart. Obviously people do care whether it is named a Samurai, swordsage, sohei, or whatever else. That is the point. We care. A samurai has certain specific historical connotations. It just means a fighter who is also a noble and who serves as a noble to the emperor. They were not monks. While they studied martial combat, their name does not come with strong connotations of the "mystic supernatural warrior," EXCEPT in orientalist fiction which others and exoticizes eastern figures. Sohei WERE monks. They were warrior monks. So while the name is Japanese, at least it has this going for it. And swordsage is a neutral term with no cultural connotations of any real sort. Its probably the best name for such a class. Both those names are (pretty much) acceptable. But to take the name Samurai and apply it to such a class is to other the historical concept of an eastern (noble) fighter. Once you do this, you use orientalism to create an Asian ghetto through naming, the very nature of linguistic racism. This is far more offensive then having a paladin be a divine fighter. Paladins are fighters who stick to a divine code. The popular and historical connotations of these names imply that. The popular and historical connotations of samurai do not paint them as supernatural warriors EXCEPT in othering and orientalist westernized fiction, or orientalist and westernized readings of eastern fiction.
Wizard, druid, paladin, bard, and more; all these classes bare only the slightest resemblance to their historical use. These class are instead based on modern fantasy archetypes from popular fiction. Historically samurai may only have meant a Japanese noble warrior, but that is no longer its only definition. For every fictional samurai that is a historically accurate figure there are probably just as many based on modern fantasy interpretations.
Names like samurai and ninja simply can't be ignored. They carry too much "traction" as the D&D designers like to call it. People recognize them by name alone. People are also fairly used to different fictions having unique interpretations of these concepts, so it hardly matters what abilities WotC gives them. Some people will complain that the classes are wrong, but most will except them as just being D&D's version of the concept. (...and no, paragon paths are not enough, people want to and deserve to play these popular archetypes from level 1.)
You speak of how making classes named samurai and ninja will cause cultural segregation. That it makes those classes unique only by defining them as exotic. I would contend that by incorporating class names and concepts from other cultures D&D is doing the same thing as all modern mass media. Taking things that are old and redefining them for a modern world.
I for one am perfectly content with using fighter, ranger, rogue, and warlord to represent the historical version of the samurai or ninja, however, I also recognize that those names can also mean something else entirely. I want to play a mystical swordsman who channels the essence of his soul through his blade. I want to play mystical assassin that literaly moves through shadows. Sure we could make up culturally neutral names for those, but why should we when modern popular fiction has already linked those archetypes to the names samurai and ninja.
Culture Envy exists to varying degrees in all cultures. The Japanese for example, have a strong envy of caucasian eyes/skin, as evidenced in anime.
Many cultures are envious of the American, Canadian, British, and/or Australian cultures/lifestyles - lest of all many "white" cultures being envious of Australia/Canada.
I assume the same holds true in the East, although I cannot site specific examples as I am not as familiar with their envy of other cultures, especially other asian/african cultures which they may be envious of.
My Korean teacher and her Japanese students went back and forth every once in a while, about things they liked about the other's culture, things they'd heard, etc. Pretty interesting stuff.
Apparently, in Japan, they think Korean women are better looking. It would've been hard to argue, as the teacher was hot.
That'd be acceptable too. Ki, though? Not so much.
Agreed.
Wizard, druid, paladin, bard, and more; all these classes bare only the slightest resemblance to their historical use. These class are instead based on modern fantasy archetypes from popular fiction. Historically samurai may only have meant a Japanese noble warrior, but that is no longer its only definition. For every fictional samurai that is a historically accurate figure there are probably just as many based on modern fantasy interpretations.
Names like samurai and ninja simply can't be ignored. They carry too much "traction" as the D&D designers like to call it. People recognize them by name alone. People are also fairly used to different fictions having unique interpretations of these concepts, so it hardly matters what abilities WotC gives them. Some people will complain that the classes are wrong, but most will except them as just being D&D's version of the concept. (...and no, paragon paths are not enough, people want to and deserve to play these popular archetypes from level 1.)
You speak of how making classes named samurai and ninja will cause cultural segregation. That it makes those classes unique only by defining them as exotic. I would contend that by incorporating class names and concepts from other cultures D&D is doing the same thing as all modern mass media. Taking things that are old and redefining them for a modern world.
I for one am perfectly content with using fighter, ranger, rogue, and warlord to represent the historical version of the samurai or ninja, however, I also recognize that those names can also mean something else entirely. I want to play a mystical swordsman who channels the essence of his soul through his blade. I want to play mystical assassin that literaly moves through shadows. Sure we could make up culturally neutral names for those, but why should we when modern popular fiction has already linked those archetypes to the names samurai and ninja.
You mean, like they did it in 3.0/3.5? There were several attempts at base classes and prestige classes for both the Samurai and the Ninja. Most of them had little to no relationship to what most people think of when they hear 'Samurai' or 'Ninja'.
That's part of the problem. 'Samurai' and 'Ninja' have a thousand different definitions in modern mass media. Defining them with a class will disappoint most people who wanted them in the first place.
On the other hand, I'd love to see a PH just carmmed full of Samurai and Ninjas and Skinwalkers and Totemists just to drive a thumbtack in the eye of Eurocentric gaming 'tradition'.
I want to play a mystical swordsman who channels the essence of his soul through his blade.
That one's actually Core. Kensai in the PHI.
Except the only example we have of Ki in any D&D environment is a vague mentioning in the Monk,
Actually this isn't true. We have another small example, but it's mixed with psionics. The githzerai (Monster Manuel pages 130-131) "harness the power of mind and soul." If you have trouble finding the quote it's under the DC 20 knowledge check.
Wizard, druid, paladin, bard, and more; all these classes bare only the slightest resemblance to their historical use. These class are instead based on modern fantasy archetypes from popular fiction. Historically samurai may only have meant a Japanese noble warrior, but that is no longer its only definition. For every fictional samurai that is a historically accurate figure there are probably just as many based on modern fantasy interpretations.
And yet, the vast variety of western names used to describe class concepts are spread out over a wide variety of power sources, all of which are culturally neutral. To take every eastern named class and to fit it into a single Ki power source, which is specifically Asian flavored, is to shove a lot of Asian concepts into one power source, regardless of any actual relationship between them, and it is an example of prejudice. To do so is to create a cognitive Asian ghetto. To do so is racist.
Names like samurai and ninja simply can't be ignored. They carry too much "traction" as the D&D designers like to call it. People recognize them by name alone. People are also fairly used to different fictions having unique interpretations of these concepts, so it hardly matters what abilities WotC gives them. Some people will complain that the classes are wrong, but most will except them as just being D&D's version of the concept. (...and no, paragon paths are not enough, people want to and deserve to play these popular archetypes from level 1.)
Why would someone not be a Samurai from level one if they are playing a fighter? Why would someone not be playing a Ninja from level one if they are playing a rogue? But you know what, I am not opposed to a Samurai or Ninja class. However, if all such eastern classes exist in only one power source, the Ki power source, then once again you have shoved a lot of Asian concepts into one power source, regardless of any actual non-cultural relationship between them, and it is an example of prejudice. To do so is to create a cognitive Asian ghetto. To do so is racist.
You speak of how making classes named samurai and ninja will cause cultural segregation. That it makes those classes unique only by defining them as exotic. I would contend that by incorporating class names and concepts from other cultures D&D is doing the same thing as all modern mass media. Taking things that are old and redefining them for a modern world.
And yet it leaves us with an obvious cognitive dichotomy. There are all the other cultural references which are spread out amongst a wide variety of culturally neutral power sources. And then we have the Asian cultural references which would all be segregated to their singular Ki power source. Taking cultural references, making them new, and spreading them out amongst a wide variety of culturally neutral power sources is not racist. Once you have done this, taking every single Asian cultural reference and segregating it to a single power source, whose only common theme is the cultural flavor of its classes, is.
The argument is simple. No matter what Asian named classes you choose to include, they should not all be present amongst a single power source. The Ki power source can be Asian. That is fine. But Asian classes should be located outside of this power source as well, or else universal classes should be used to represent culturally universal concepts. What defines the Ki power source should not be its Asianess, but the nature of the mystical power it uses. This mystical power should not be something that is painted onto names that really have little or nothing to do with such mystical power, except in racist fiction and racist readings of fiction. This mystical power should be something that is a core concept of the class itself.
I for one am perfectly content with using fighter, ranger, rogue, and warlord to represent the historical version of the samurai or ninja, however, I also recognize that those names can also mean something else entirely. I want to play a mystical swordsman who channels the essence of his soul through his blade. I want to play mystical assassin that literaly moves through shadows. Sure we could make up culturally neutral names for those, but why should we when modern popular fiction has already linked those archetypes to the names samurai and ninja.
The question of course would be which examples of popular modern fiction, and what implications does one bring to D&D by using them.
As long as all the Ki classes are actually bound together by a common power source, and not a common culture (which is then sold as a power source with a bit of re-skinning/fluffing), I am sure everyone will be happy (regardless of whether all the Ki classes end up having a common culture or not).
To do so is to create a cognitive Asian ghetto. To do so is racist.
And lame.
You forgot lame.
Except the only example we have of Ki in any D&D environment is a vague mentioning in the Monk
Ever hear of Kara-tur? Ki is not new to D&D, power sources are.
Ever hear of Kara-tur? Ki is not new to D&D, power sources are.
I think that post meant 'in 4E'.
Of course, in the almost two years between the time between when that sidebar was written and when when the resulting product sees print, the devs might actually learn what the word 'ki' means. As it has been pointed out, there's a lot of silence on the topic.
Well I could point out that you don't know for sure it is two years, but instead I'll counter with this.
Some undead are born as a result of sheer force of will. These rare individuals staved off the afterlife by harnessing the great power of their soul(or ki).
Yup they have been totally silent on the matter, especially in the most recent book released.:P
Well I could point out that you don't know for sure it is two years, but instead I'll counter with this.
Yup they have been totally silent on the matter, especially in the most recent book released.:P
... It's okay. They still might learn the difference between the two... Slow, deep breaths...
Monks, Ninjas, and whatever else Wizards is going to shove in are going to kill 4th edition.
Chicken little much?
I'm hoping Monks have powers that make them something akin to Street Fighter characters. But that may be because I've been playign SF4 since it was released... go figure. Chicken little much?
Which Street Fighter characters? Because a standard-sized class, a Ki Power supplement, and the typical feat selection size wouldn't be enough to cover all the SF characters.
If I was to ask a DM, "I want to play a character that's a lot like Inspector Tequila Yuen, I want to be able to lay waste to everything and everyone with two weapons. To literally become a God that way."
The DM would say: "You want a Ranger."
And a Shotgun.
:D (Fine he could be a Ranger too.)
If Western ideas are able to be depicted by using universal mechanics flavored to taste, why do Eastern ideas need their own flavor built into the class?
Because people (not me) want it?
That said, the flavor will be in the powers, and the classes opening paragraphs will get the same bland D&D treatment that nobody should care about in the first place.
"No Western bases for ki" is false. Animus, energeia, and elan vital are synonymous.
I both respect your knowledge, but am disappointed by your obstinance. You are still treating Ki like it was just some physical force, rather than a metaphysical one.
Animus is more psychological than metaphysical, which in 4e has been shown to be separate from soul, which as has been shown, is connected to Ki in other places as well (Open Grave).
Energeia is an ambiguous term whose real meaning is undetermined, and the best guesses I've seen have a more scientific energy meaning than anything else we're talking about.
Elan vital is something that I will admit I had not heard of until today, but looking into it, it seems more like a physical drive, like a genetic impetus to grow and develop and whatnot.
Again, its an entirely physical thing, and 4e has clearly connected Ki to soul. Whether you like it or not, whether you agree with it or not, Ki and soul are connected in 4e, so accept that the definition you're insisting on is not the one they're using and syncretize in a different direction, or walk away, because it does you know good to say, "These people are wrong about the thing they are creating."
Because there's never been an explicit power source for each class, nor any need to have several classes for each one. Now, the situation has changed. What concepts are they going to use to pad the Ki power source out, and how?
Actually, there was an explicit power source for Wu Jen and Shugenja, Arcane and Divine. Arcane magic was clearly delineated from other stuff, as was Divine magic. Later on, Martial Adepts were clearly delineated. There was no Ki power source, but the Monk class had Ki features, including Ki strike and eventually, could turn Stunning Fists into Ki blasts. I don't know how much closer to power sources you can get without defining "power source" like they did in 4e.
I think someone needs to set up a fallacy definition somewhere. As soon as someone states "you just talked a lot of PC BS" they loose an argument automatically, just like someone looses an argument automatically for likening their opponent to Hitler due to the fact that their opponent disagrees with them. Thing is, the "that's a load of PC BS" argument is one that is made by only one group of people, people who have a higher hierarchical position in a socially offensive situation. (The higher position always going to the one who is committing the offense, as any offense is essentially an act of degradation, an act of lowering in a Bakhtinian sense of the word, minus the Bakhtinian implication of regeneration.) It is the argument used once a person no longer has any logical ground on which to defend their statement, but they don't want to change their position, nor do they wish to take into consideration the subjective and emotional positions of those whom they are offending. Based on that statement alone, I think its pretty clear that the Ki power source CAN be constructed as a very implicitly racist power source.
Ok, I guess I'm done with you on this topic. Obviously, instead of just being tired of saying the same things to you and having you say the same things back so I just wanted to gloss over it, that must mean I have no logical stances. I do agree with some of what you said. I am deliberately ignoring subjective, emotional positions because they have no place in logical debate. "Oh, I feel bad because my Chinese-styled soldier character has a Japanese class name." "Ok, suck it up and control your feelings better, because thats illogical. Anyone who wants to play a holy warrior uses a french named class, and anyone who wants to play a primal controller uses a germanic named class, so if you want a ki defender, you can deal, too."Everything gets abstracted, and this will be no different.
Racism is, in the linguistic space, always about names and the ability to name things. You are right, it is about class names, and because names and naming is where racism lives in the linguistic space, that is exactly where the producers must be particularly careful during their production of a Ki power source. Named uncarefully, the Ki powersource becomes orientalist and racist.
Or, you can recognize logically, that words only have power if you give them power, and if a Ki defender is named Samurai, you don't have to say, "Oh, that means its Japanese and now I'm offended," You can say, "Oh, thats just a word that now means Ki defender, and they used it because it had a lot of marketing traction."
Don't get me wrong, I think Swordsage would sound cooler, but if it comes down to it, I'm not going to say, "Oh, the Ki Defender is a Samurai, thats offensive." I'm going to say, "Oh, the Ki Defender is a Samurai, thats lame."
Everything except for the "sheathing a weapon in energy." Energy attacks from Ki should be more along the lines of using a weapon to transfer animus from the body to a target using the weapon as a conduit.
Energy attacks from Ki are going to be whatever they say they're going to be. Animus is not a good word to use because 4e has defined animus as separate from Ki. Likewise, watch some anime, and you will see dozens of ki using fighters sheath their weapons in energy (usually fire or electricity).
And here is where your argument falls apart. Obviously people do care whether it is named a Samurai, swordsage, sohei, or whatever else.
My argument is that they shouldn't care. I don't care if they do. People care about a lot of stuff that they shouldn't.
A samurai has certain specific historical connotations. It just means a fighter who is also a noble and who serves as a noble to the emperor.
And it has a lot of non-historical connotations, too. Just because you have exposed yourself to more historical contexts than mystical does not invalidate the vast amount of mystical samurai stuff thats out there. And its not Westerners doing it either, its the Japanese themselves who make their Samurai into mystical warriors in dozens of media. In fact, I've got to say that I've seen more Western sources demystifying samurai than mystifying it, and the exact opposite coming from the East. The Chinese do the same thing to their fighters, but have no unifying name for them, so Samurai has far more traction.
No, I am stating that taking eastern names that don't have connotations of supernatural ability in eastern fiction
Yeah, if it isn't clear yet, this is what I'm arguing against. They absolutely do have supernatural ability in Eastern fiction. When I was a kid in the 80s watching Ronin Warriors, I thought Samurai were like superheroes, not just boring swordsmen. And that was a Japanese show. There are so many more examples of stuff like that in Japanese culture alone that I can't believe you could argue this point.
Do you not realize that if only ONE culture has something that is flavored "other," and all other cultures have the flavor "universal," you have just othered that one culture, you have just stuck that one culture into a cognitive ghetto? Do you actually not realize this?
No, I don't realize that, because there's no Asia in D&D. So the class powers are going to be flavored/stylized based on Chinese/Japanese/Indian (though I don't think Bollywood does many action movies) media, and the actual class itself will have some setting BS about it that I can't even guess on, because honestly, I won't care one bit. Probably something about the Giths. It doesn't really matter.
That one's actually Core. Kensai in the PHI.
Kensai is a purely martial class. It has an foreign name, but its not mystical whatsoever. Its premised on pure dedication to a single weapon. No mysticism. This is actually already strong evidence that this proposed "oriental ghetto" will not exist.
And yet, the vast variety of western names used to describe class concepts are spread out over a wide variety of power sources, all of which are culturally neutral. To take every eastern named class and to fit it into a single Ki power source, which is specifically Asian flavored, is to shove a lot of Asian concepts into one power source, regardless of any actual relationship between them, and it is an example of prejudice. To do so is to create a cognitive Asian ghetto. To do so is racist.
If that were to be the case the Ki power source would indeed be sad, but we've received multiple quotes from WotC that say Ki will not simply be the dumping ground for all Asian classes. Personally, I'm willing to trust WotC on that.
In case I hadn't made my self clear I do not want or expect any such segregation. I feel that when samurai returns to D&D it should be Ki, but that when ninja returns it should be shadow. Wu Jen and Shugenja, if they return, should probably be elemental, though not having any knowledge of what will define that power source makes it hard to predict what classes might appear.
As for other classes from Oriental Adventures, I can't really say as I never owned the book. Sohei is the only class I have any passing familiarity with, but it seems to me that a monk/samurai multiclass or possibly a refluffed avenger could cover the concept. Why don't I feel Sohei deserves it's own class? Because it has no recognition. I've never heard of them outside of Oriental Adventures and I am unfamiliar with any fiction that identifies any character using the term. Comparatively the terms ninja and samurai are used to identify many characters from a wide variety of fictions.
The question of course would be which examples of popular modern fiction, and what implications does one bring to D&D by using them.
The point is that there are so many varieties of samurai and ninja across so many difrent stories and games that fans have goten used to the terms covering a wide range of possibilities. Of course most people have their own favorates, but I think you underestimate a fans ability to except the concept that the abilities of a future samurai or ninja class only defines what those names mean in D&D. Furthermore, all of the classes we have so far have shown ably to represent a reasnaly wide variety of play styles and I don't expect that to all of a suden stop come PHB3.
And yet, there are not multiple Germanic and French named classes with every Germanic of French named class is stuck inside a single power source.
Everything gets abstracted, and this will be no different.
Or, you can recognize logically, that words only have power if you give them power, and if a Ki defender is named Samurai, you don't have to say, "Oh, that means its Japanese and now I'm offended," You can say, "Oh, thats just a word that now means Ki defender, and they used it because it had a lot of marketing traction."
So, people should just ignore what is offensive? Because, your argument makes it sound a lot like you are saying that it is their fault if they are offended. And, if you take that argument to its logical conclusion, that would indicate that perhaps people are always at fault when they are offended, because they could "just ignore the word." Perhaps we should have some classes named after other choice words then? I can think of one with historical connotations to slavery in America for example. Perhaps that should be a class name? Somehow I doubt even you would think that that was appropriate. And, if its not, and your idea taken to its logical conclusion is not acceptable, then your foundation of logic is not either.
Don't get me wrong, I think Swordsage would sound cooler, but if it comes down to it, I'm not going to say, "Oh, the Ki Defender is a Samurai, thats offensive." I'm going to say, "Oh, the Ki Defender is a Samurai, thats lame."
In this case, its lame because its racist.
Energy attacks from Ki are going to be whatever they say they're going to be. Animus is not a good word to use because 4e has defined animus as separate from Ki. Likewise, watch some anime, and you will see dozens of ki using fighters sheath their weapons in energy (usually fire or electricity).
Fair enough.
My argument is that they shouldn't care. I don't care if they do. People care about a lot of stuff that they shouldn't.
So, people should just ignore what is offensive? Because, your argument makes it sound a lot like you are saying that it is their fault if they are offended. And, if you take that argument to its logical conclusion, that would indicate that perhaps people are always at fault when they are offended, because they could "just ignore the word." Perhaps we should have some classes named after other choice words then? I can think of one with historical connotations to slavery in America for example. Perhaps that should be a class name? Somehow I doubt even you would think that that was appropriate. And, if its not, and your idea taken to its logical conclusion is not acceptable, then your foundation of logic is not either.
And it has a lot of non-historical connotations, too. Just because you have exposed yourself to more historical contexts than mystical does not invalidate the vast amount of mystical samurai stuff thats out there. And its not Westerners doing it either, its the Japanese themselves who make their Samurai into mystical warriors in dozens of media. In fact, I've got to say that I've seen more Western sources demystifying samurai than mystifying it, and the exact opposite coming from the East. The Chinese do the same thing to their fighters, but have no unifying name for them, so Samurai has far more traction.
Here is the thing, an Japanese and Chinese cinema, its not that the warrior is mystical, its that the world is. Everyone jumps around on the tops of trees. Everyone can perform amazing feats with their sword, cutting hundreds of arrows out of the sky. The act is not magical. The world is magical. The warrior is not magical. The world is magical. The act itself, in this world, is skilled. (Obviously there are counter examples to this, but there is usually some sort of mitigating circumstance. Its hard to cover the whole range of cultural interactions with a single paragraph.) And here is the other thing, D&D already accounts for that. That's why anyone, including a fighter, can get to high level and challenge a god. That's why a level 30 fighter can fight an army entirly composed of level 1 minions, and literally win a war single handed.
Now, when you throw extra mystical connotations onto the Asian figure, and slap all the Asian classes into a single power source whose power is its Asianess, we have already gone over what happens.
Yeah, if it isn't clear yet, this is what I'm arguing against. They absolutely do have supernatural ability in Eastern fiction. When I was a kid in the 80s watching Ronin Warriors, I thought Samurai were like superheroes, not just boring swordsmen. And that was a Japanese show. There are so many more examples of stuff like that in Japanese culture alone that I can't believe you could argue this point.
See above.
No, I don't realize that, because there's no Asia in D&D. So the class powers are going to be flavored/stylized based on Chinese/Japanese/Indian (though I don't think Bollywood does many action movies) media, and the actual class itself will have some setting BS about it that I can't even guess on, because honestly, I won't care one bit. Probably something about the Giths. It doesn't really matter.
But there is D&D, and Asia, in the real world. Using Asian names, in D&D, resonates with the players and their space in the real world. The use of such names won't be racist in the D&D world, but it very well might in the real world.
I'm not saying this is the most racist thing in the world. Certainly its not another holocaust or some such. But its still mildly racist, and I would rather even mild racism stays clear of the products I purchase.
That being said, I really don't think WotC handled eastern material in a racist manner in 3e, and I see no reason why they would in 4e. I just find the argument that it is totally impossible to handle such material in a racist manner to be fairly silly. Especially when the example you gave was a perfect example of how it could be handled in a racist manner.
If that were to be the case the Ki power source would indeed be sad, but we've received multiple quotes from WotC that say Ki will not simply be the dumping ground for all Asian classes.
Have we? I only recall one quote that could be seen as doing that and it is only implied(and only weakly) in that case.If that were to be the case the Ki power source would indeed be sad, but we've received multiple quotes from WotC that say Ki will not simply be the dumping ground for all Asian classes. Personally, I'm willing to trust WotC on that.
Oh, I don't actually think WotC will handle it in a racist manner! I have said that a number of times in this thread already. I just find it very short sighted when certain posters say that it is impossible for the subject manner to be handled in a racist manner, especially when they then give an example of exactly how the material CAN be handled in a racist manner. When posters then claim, "well, people shouldn't be offended! Its just a name. Live with it. If you care you are just being PC!" just makes it worse. There is a time and place to not be politically correct. There is some amazing internet poetry that deals with racism, and the effort to make race and culture difficult to consume/obfuscate (in an effort to fight the passive racism present in comodification in corporate culture, especially in terms of certain racist conceptions present in the rhetoric of advertisement that has been used in regards to the internet in the past). There are certain films that deal with racism, and in entering into dialogue with racism they must use certain offensive terms. But I don't see why any RPG should ever offhandedly include racism (passive, implicit, or otherwise). I don't see why anyone should ever choose to ignore it. Thought should be put into a product and what its rhetoric is before it is released. Thankfully, WotC usually does put that thought into its products.
Geki Waza! JYUKEN GATTAI! :p
Because people (not me) want it?
That said, the flavor will be in the powers, and the classes opening paragraphs will get the same bland D&D treatment that nobody should care about in the first place.
I don't see how this answers the question of "why does the East get special treatment, when everywhere else settles for the generic brand?" If WotC was at all interested in consistency on this issue, Asian stuff would have a book rather like the FRCS book, with suggestions on how to take the core stuff and make it feel like the Asian setting of your preference. Possibly some powers for existing classes that are extra-fluffy, a Paragon Path or two... but several classes? It doesn't make sense. No other groups of cultures get such treatment, and if 'masses of classes' was the 4E design approach like 3.5, I'd say that they should. Since it is not supposed to be, I rather think they should make the effort to demonstrate how Asian concepts fit within the existing framework.
I both respect your knowledge, but am disappointed by your obstinance. You are still treating Ki like it was just some physical force, rather than a metaphysical one.
Animus is more psychological than metaphysical, which in 4e has been shown to be separate from soul, which as has been shown, is connected to Ki in other places as well (Open Grave).
Energeia is an ambiguous term whose real meaning is undetermined, and the best guesses I've seen have a more scientific energy meaning than anything else we're talking about.
Elan vital is something that I will admit I had not heard of until today, but looking into it, it seems more like a physical drive, like a genetic impetus to grow and develop and whatnot.
My 'obstinance' is caused, perhaps, by knowing what I'm talking about. I've practiced some rudimentary qi gong, so I've got a better idea than some about what it actually consists of.
The best illustration of what I mean is to point to an instance where the concepts of 'ki' and 'soul' coexist. In Hinduism, the word for soul is atman. The religion fails to mention ki at all, because it is not part of their religion. It was, however, included in the body of what passed for science in the relevant period, by the name of prana.
The atman can not be physically interacted with. It is purely a personal matter. Prana, on the other hand, is supposed to be a physical force. Several martial and medicinal arts were based on the idea of manipulating it, both within yourself and other people, in the same way that you manipulate muscles, bones, etc. That's why I'm treating ki as 'just some physical force' - because that's what it's supposed to be. That is the definition of the word.
4E does, at this point, make a few references to Ki being the same thing as Soul. This is cringe-worthy. We don't know if they did this out of ignorance or conscious decision. If it is the former, there is always the hope that they'll revise the idea when they do some background reading.
Also, by 'animus,' I don't mean 'as defined by Jung.' I, and apparently WotC too, am using the Latin definition, which is very similar to what I described above.
Asian based campaigns can be just as much fun as any other and adding in a new group of powers based on " KI " doesn't mean it's going to ruin anything at all. Nobody said you couldn't use it in your game as something totally different than what it is actually called in the book. Remember, like every other version of this game, if you don't like something because it does not fit into your personal games, don't use it or change it. Thats the beauty of D&D. It's been that way since 1st edition.
We have the Monk, all but confirmed as a Ki Striker, the only other class that would use the KI power source that springs to my mind is:
Sohei
I'd love to hear some ideas.
The common role playing game rogue is essentially an assassin lacking the Bilbo thief aspects. An assassin is a Middle Eastern word that comes from Hashshashin (حشّاشين). In a way even in previous editions we never really played a ninja class we play the legend of the ninja which has gain supernatural status. We have the same western equivalent such as the Ghost Knights of Valkenburg.
The same mysticism surrounds samurai they were simply horse archers until metallurgy improved in Japan. Even then the west still had the same equivalent metalworking techniques called Damascus steel. The west also had very skilled swordsmen that fell under a similar feudalism cast system. A fighter with a long sword or bastard sword and banded armor is basically a samurai. If you want to play up the honorable code bit there was the Knight class out of PHB II.
It is fun to play with the legend of these things but they are really not unique simply exotic reinterpretations that service fanboysim. In the west we called it God in the east they call it chi or ki.
Okay, so aside from the racism war, how about some speculation on Ki classes of not an Asian theme or title?
We have the Monk, all but confirmed as a Ki Striker, the only other class that would use the KI power source that springs to my mind is:
Sohei
I'd love to hear some ideas.
My two ideas for ki classes are the soulknife, a warrior who shapes and reshapes weapons composed of his ki in the middle of battle, and the "persona user"(I really need to come up with a better name), a character who gives physical shape to an entity existing with in their soul that represents some portion of themselves(that may or may not be hidden). I've written much longer posts on both of them, but I have next to no idea as to where they are, and I'm far to lazy to retype them.:P
In no particular order,
1. Ki classes won't be ki because they're "asian powered," they'll be powered up in terms of special effects because character archetypes from anime and asian inspired fantasy tend to have a degree of magical-ness to their martial combat that isn't justified by the current structure of Dungeons and Dragons, and "Ki" is a justification for those sorts of abilities that has a history of being used in D&D and in popular fantasy.
2. Insisting that Ki be filled with wacky non-asian concepts like Incarnum to prevent it from becoming "too asian" isn't even post colonial racism. Its actual colonialism, straight up. Its literally an effort at taking a trope of asian fantasy, and colonizing it so that it won't be too asian.
3. Which would be racist, except that its already happened in a reasonably non-racist way due to the natural evolution and mixing of cultures and fantasy tropes. The monk is an excellent example from D&D: it may have started out with asian influences but its long since been coopted into the general fantasy milieu. The archetypal monks in D&D are the freaking Gith, for crying out loud. Examples exist from outside of D&D as well. Western studios regularly make flicks that are fundamentally wuxia movies. The Matrix was a wuxia movie, and the list goes on.
4. As a result, tropes that maybe once were "asian" are now "originally asian" or "associated with asian styles" at best. The death of Qui-Gon Jinn was the beating heart of Hong Kong cinema torn from its still breathing chest and implanted in the cybernetic hull of a western science fiction movie. And there's one more twist- there are a lot of movies which seem to be fundamentally wuxia films with guns instead of martial arts.
5. That's why I don't care much if the entire Ki power source is filled with ninja, ronin, samurai, and monk archetypes. There's a LOT of material there, and a lot of room for these classes in the game. And I don't consider these tropes to be asian, or at least, I don't consider them very asian. They've long since been coopted in to the general fantasy genre. I just finished reading a book called The Gone Away World, by Nick Harkaway, which is fundamentally a science fiction fusion of western styled vietnam war era storytelling (think Catch 22 by Joseph Heller) with a kung fu epic. And that's not an unusual thing for me.
Now, if we get a ronin who is mechanically and thematically a martial character class, but it has "ki" next to all of its powers for no apparent reason, then we'll talk.
But I see no reason to worry that this is happening.
Much more likely is that we'll get classes which emulate the genre and the cinematography of a style of fantasy that is not presently well covered by D&D. The stylistic differences will be explained away by "ki." There will be a light dusting of asian themed flavor (the class names, perhaps, the names of a few powers, etc), but the overall gist of the class will be universal, or at least universal in modern fantasy. The designers will go out of their way to explain that Ki isn't only used by people who live in pagodas and perform tea ceremonies, and they'll probably emphasize this by assigning a lot of its use to non-human races with no asian trappings.
Meanwhile, people who hate asian character classes will complain about it on the internet.
People who can't, or claim they can't, see the difference between a John Woo film and Lord of the Rings will continue to complain that ki powers are really martial, or they'll claim there's no reason for classes to be made to emulate a Kenshin styled unarmored swordsman, when you could play a fighter in scale with a fullblade, and people like me will continue to be baffled by their arguments.
People with weird historical fixations who refuse to acknowledge popular culture as a valid source for archetypes will complain that the Samurai or the Ninja isn't true to real world samurai or ninja. I'll post five or six times in five or six threads that, if you want to make a samurai themed character who's completely martial, you can STILL make a fighter, even if/though there's a class named samurai.
Eventually I'll get sick of it and start ignoring those threads, and eventually the conflict will die down to background noise.
2. Insisting that Ki be filled with wacky non-asian concepts like Incarnum to prevent it from becoming "too asian" isn't even post colonial racism. Its actual colonialism, straight up. Its literally an effort at taking a trope of asian fantasy, and colonizing it so that it won't be too asian.
Which is why I have repeatedly stated that its not about making the asian power source less asian. Its about not containing every element of asian flavor within the Ki power source.
Now, if we get a ronin who is mechanically and thematically a martial character class, but it has "ki" next to all of its powers for no apparent reason, then we'll talk.
That's actually exactly what I am talking about. That is what would **** me off. But like you:
But I see no reason to [very strongly] worry that this is happening.
Much more likely is that we'll get classes which emulate the genre and the cinematography of a style of fantasy that is not presently well covered by D&D. The stylistic differences will be explained away by "ki." There will be a light dusting of asian themed flavor (the class names, perhaps, the names of a few powers, etc), but the overall gist of the class will be universal, or at least universal in modern fantasy. The designers will go out of their way to explain that Ki isn't only used by people who live in pagodas and perform tea ceremonies, and they'll probably emphasize this by assigning a lot of its use to non-human races with no asian trappings.
And if that is what they will do I won't have any complaints.
The designers will go out of their way to explain that Ki isn't only used by people who live in pagodas and perform tea ceremonies, and they'll probably emphasize this by assigning a lot of its use to non-human races with no asian trappings.
Nice, I'm with ya.
Its about not containing every element of asian flavor within the Ki power source.
Totally, but as we have a Martial Paragon Path: Kensai, I have hope.
Much more likely is that we'll get classes which emulate the genre and the cinematography of a style of fantasy that is not presently well covered by D&D. The stylistic differences will be explained away by "ki." There will be a light dusting of asian themed flavor (the class names, perhaps, the names of a few powers, etc), but the overall gist of the class will be universal, or at least universal in modern fantasy. The designers will go out of their way to explain that Ki isn't only used by people who live in pagodas and perform tea ceremonies, and they'll probably emphasize this by assigning a lot of its use to non-human races with no asian trappings.
This is the way I feel. I hope this is what Wizards will do. I also hope that more players will realize that this in no way ruins "high fantasy," but as long as the group I play with doesn't ban the ki power source, then I can't really complain about what other groups do with their games to make them fun in their eyes.
1. Ki classes won't be ki because they're "asian powered," they'll be powered up in terms of special effects because character archetypes from anime and asian inspired fantasy tend to have a degree of magical-ness to their martial combat that isn't justified by the current structure of Dungeons and Dragons, and "Ki" is a justification for those sorts of abilities that has a history of being used in D&D and in popular fantasy.
Why is this necessary? 'Ki' is typically invoked when there is no other explanation for superhuman stuff. Once you've accepted that physical training and mental focus allow people to perform superhuman feats, it becomes redundant. The only distinguishing feature between 'ki' and other power sources is Asianness.
2. Insisting that Ki be filled with wacky non-asian concepts like Incarnum to prevent it from becoming "too asian" isn't even post colonial racism. Its actual colonialism, straight up. Its literally an effort at taking a trope of asian fantasy, and colonizing it so that it won't be too asian.
I'm somewhat concerned that 4E considers 'ki' to be equal to 'soul', despite the conceptual inaccuracy, so they can shove Incarnum in alongside to pad out otherwise narrow concepts. It's not like we've got a bunch of ideas on Ki archetypes.
Come to think of it, that's rather a point against your previous argument. Most genuinely Ki-based concepts can fit into one, maybe two classes, while anime and other forms of Asian storytelling include far, far more character archetypes.
But yeah, taking the word 'ki' and using it to represent a host of mystical concepts it never has in the past is a colonialist approach.
3. Which would be racist, except that its already happened in a reasonably non-racist way due to the natural evolution and mixing of cultures and fantasy tropes. The monk is an excellent example from D&D: it may have started out with asian influences but its long since been coopted into the general fantasy milieu. The archetypal monks in D&D are the freaking Gith, for crying out loud. Examples exist from outside of D&D as well. Western studios regularly make flicks that are fundamentally wuxia movies. The Matrix was a wuxia movie, and the list goes on.
Which I think is an excellent argument in favor of integrating the concept of 'ki' into existing power sources, instead of having a separate, foreign-flavored one.
4. As a result, tropes that maybe once were "asian" are now "originally asian" or "associated with asian styles" at best. The death of Qui-Gon Jinn was the beating heart of Hong Kong cinema torn from its still breathing chest and implanted in the cybernetic hull of a western science fiction movie. And there's one more twist- there are a lot of movies which seem to be fundamentally wuxia films with guns instead of martial arts.
You're going on about a storytelling and cinematic style, which is rather beyond the scope of classes. That's DM territory.
5. That's why I don't care much if the entire Ki power source is filled with ninja, ronin, samurai, and monk archetypes. There's a LOT of material there, and a lot of room for these classes in the game. And I don't consider these tropes to be asian, or at least, I don't consider them very asian. They've long since been coopted in to the general fantasy genre. I just finished reading a book called The Gone Away World, by Nick Harkaway, which is fundamentally a science fiction fusion of western styled vietnam war era storytelling (think Catch 22 by Joseph Heller) with a kung fu epic. And that's not an unusual thing for me.
I agree. There really does seem to be a lot of conceptual overlap between Ki-based archetypes and what we've already got. They're very compatible. So why is it separate?
Now, if we get a ronin who is mechanically and thematically a martial character class, but it has "ki" next to all of its powers for no apparent reason, then we'll talk.
What will you say in that talk? "I was right"? Because this is what you're endorsing. The difference between the typical anime "ronin" archetype and any other sword-using martial character is that the ronin is so very much more skilled than the others, faster and capable of crazy attacks due to sheer technical superiority. That's not the difference between a Martial character and a Ki character. At least, it shouldn't be. It's the difference between a level 1 character and Paragon-tier character. What you're suggesting is that Martial stuff be dialed up to 11 in awesomeness, and then the numbers scaled back to balance.
But I see no reason to worry that this is happening.
I do.
Much more likely is that we'll get classes which emulate the genre and the cinematography of a style of fantasy that is not presently well covered by D&D. The stylistic differences will be explained away by "ki." There will be a light dusting of asian themed flavor (the class names, perhaps, the names of a few powers, etc), but the overall gist of the class will be universal, or at least universal in modern fantasy. The designers will go out of their way to explain that Ki isn't only used by people who live in pagodas and perform tea ceremonies, and they'll probably emphasize this by assigning a lot of its use to non-human races with no asian trappings.
This is a likely scenario, but it also doesn't exclude the likelihood of Ki being conceptually redundant, but MOAR AWESOME!!! In fact, that's included in your description. "The genre and cinematography of a style of fantasy that is not presently well covered by D&D." The difference between that style of storytelling and D&D's is one of tone, which is a setting issue, and POWER.
Meanwhile, people who hate asian character classes will complain about it on the internet.
And many of those complaints will be legitimate. Some probably won't. But fanboys who insist that Asian = AWESOME will be right there fighting back.
People who can't, or claim they can't, see the difference between a John Woo film and Lord of the Rings will continue to complain that ki powers are really martial, or they'll claim there's no reason for classes to be made to emulate a Kenshin styled unarmored swordsman, when you could play a fighter in scale with a fullblade, and people like me will continue to be baffled by their arguments.
What about the people who feel that an unarmored melee character is perfectly valid, but that the approach you endorse to creating them is bad? Also, there clearly is a difference between a John Woo film and Lord of the Rings. Several differences, in fact. John Woo films don't typically involve a large group of characters with disparate approaches to combat. Characters in John Woo films are generally "high level" in D&D terms. The differences between what they can do and what, say, a level 1 Ranger can do, are primarily those of level, not of fundamental approach to combat. This is why designing classes based on wuxia and anime is a bad approach.
People with weird historical fixations who refuse to acknowledge popular culture as a valid source for archetypes will complain that the Samurai or the Ninja isn't true to real world samurai or ninja. I'll post five or six times in five or six threads that, if you want to make a samurai themed character who's completely martial, you can STILL make a fighter, even if/though there's a class named samurai.
Eventually I'll get sick of it and start ignoring those threads, and eventually the conflict will die down to background noise.
Probably. And people who are fans of a specific fictional interpretation of Ninja or Samurai will be right there beside the history buffs, complaining that D&D can't handle their favorite characters with the classes provided.
My Begonia are looking forward to PHB 3 but the situation is kinda touchy. I have to figure out a way to tell them that as an annual plant they aren't going to live to see PHB 3 come out.
Why is this necessary? 'Ki' is typically invoked when there is no other explanation for superhuman stuff. Once you've accepted that physical training and mental focus allow people to perform superhuman feats, it becomes redundant.
Isn't the same thing often done with "Magic"? The way your arguing the Arcane, Psionic, and Shadow power sources should all be one.
The only distinguishing feature between 'ki' and other power sources is Asianness.
I do not see this as true. 'Ki' is similar to both Martial and Arcane, but still different enough from them to be recognizable.
The designers describe Martial as the most "realistic" power source. While users of it may perform superhuman feats nothing they do is supernatural. While Martial characters can shatter a boulder with a simple punch, they will never be able to remove a handful of stone from a solid boulder leaving the rest intact.1
Arcane is the most "magical" of the power sources. For all of their supernatural abilities, they do nothing superhuman. Everything Arcane characters do is based around casting spells, they don't do things like one finger balances on top of a pole without casting a spell first. Even the Swordmage, the most "martial" of all the Arcane class, is really just a wizard with a different set of spells who uses a sword as a really big metal wand.
Ki characters on the other hand are both superhuman and supernatural. They can run up a wall through shear physical speed and also have flaming punches.
I'm somewhat concerned that 4E considers 'ki' to be equal to 'soul', despite the conceptual inaccuracy, so they can shove Incarnum in alongside to pad out otherwise narrow concepts.
The only ones doing that are posters who think that Ki with be racist or AZN unless something is added.
It's not like we've got a bunch of ideas on Ki archetypes.
I've got four that are strong enough to be their own individual classes.
- Bare handed martial artists who can project blast of energy from their palms and throw flaming uppercuts.2
- Swordsmen who can cut things with their "Ki" even when using a dull weapon or nothing at all.3
- "Zen" archers who fire non-existing arrows.4
- Shadowy infiltrators who use martial arts and elemental techniques.5
Come to think of it, that's rather a point against your previous argument. Most genuinely Ki-based concepts can fit into one, maybe two classes, while anime and other forms of Asian storytelling include far, far more character archetypes.
Could you explain what these one or two classes are?
But yeah, taking the word 'ki' and using it to represent a host of mystical concepts it never has in the past is a colonialist approach.
Can you list these concepts? Besides Incarnum, which I already think doesn't belong, I really want to see what stuff you don't believe to have been attributed to Ki.
I agree. There really does seem to be a lot of conceptual overlap between Ki-based archetypes and what we've already got. They're very compatible. So why is it separate?
Because the Ki classes do stuff that the designers don't want the other power sources doing.
I do.
Why. What reasons do you have to believe that will come to pass?
This is a likely scenario, but it also doesn't exclude the likelihood of Ki being conceptually redundant, but MOAR AWESOME!!! In fact, that's included in your description. "The genre and cinematography of a style of fantasy that is not presently well covered by D&D." The difference between that style of storytelling and D&D's is one of tone, which is a setting issue, and POWER.
If I was making a full scale high end Wuxia epic I would need a lot of special effects equipment, and that is what the Ki classes would be for D&D.
And many of those complaints will be legitimate. Some probably won't. But fanboys who insist that Asian = AWESOME will be right there fighting back.
What sort of complaints would you consider legitimate? And why do you seem to be implying that Asian=AWESOME means Asian=BETTER and not Asian=INTERTESTING.
What about the people who feel that an unarmored melee character is perfectly valid, but that the approach you endorse to creating them is bad?
They can make or use another class that isn't Ki?
Probably. And people who are fans of a specific fictional interpretation of Ninja or Samurai will be right there beside the history buffs, complaining that D&D can't handle their favorite characters with the classes provided.
So the forums as usual.
- Example taken froma Korean manhwa brought over as King of Hell.
- Ryu and Ken from Street Fighter
- Maya Natsume from Tenjho Tenge
- "Arcane" archers from 3.X
- "Mystical" Ninja that Kishimoto based Naruto off of
Isn't the same thing often done with "Magic"? The way your arguing the Arcane, Psionic, and Shadow power sources should all be one.
Not the same thing at all. In most fiction where ki is referenced at all, it's the reason why people can surpass 'realistic' human abilities. By definition, it doesn't coexist with the Martial power source, because it is the Martial power source in those stories. Meanwhile, Arcane, Psionic, and Shadow aren't mutually exclusive, or inherently superior versions of each other.
I do not see this as true. 'Ki' is similar to both Martial and Arcane, but still different enough from them to be recognizable.
The designers describe Martial as the most "realistic" power source. While users of it may perform superhuman feats nothing they do is supernatural. While Martial characters can shatter a boulder with a simple punch, they will never be able to remove a handful of stone from a solid boulder leaving the rest intact.1
This simply makes it clear that Ki is MOAR AWESOME.
Arcane is the most "magical" of the power sources. For all of their supernatural abilities, they do nothing superhuman. Everything Arcane characters do is based around casting spells, they don't do things like one finger balances on top of a pole without casting a spell first. Even the Swordmage, the most "martial" of all the Arcane class, is really just a wizard with a different set of spells who uses a sword as a really big metal wand.
Ki characters on the other hand are both superhuman and supernatural. They can run up a wall through shear physical speed and also have flaming punches.
They can do everything Martial characters can do, but with MOAR AWESOME!
The only ones doing that are posters who think that Ki with be racist or AZN unless something is added.
Check the PHB. And Open Grave, apparently.
Bare handed martial artists who can project blast of energy from their palms and throw flaming uppercuts.2
Like Martial, NOW WITH MOAR AWESOME!
Swordsmen who can cut things with their "Ki" even when using a dull weapon or nothing at all.3
MOAR AWESOME!
"Zen" archers who fire non-existing arrows.4
Why isn't this Arcane, Divine, or Psionic?
Shadowy infiltrators who use martial arts and elemental techniques.5
Shadow and Elemental are power sources too.
Could you explain what these one or two classes are?
Okay, so aside from the racism war, how about some speculation on Ki classes of not an Asian theme or title?
We have the Monk, all but confirmed as a Ki Striker, the only other class that would use the KI power source that springs to my mind is:
Sohei
I'd love to hear some ideas.
Can you list these concepts? Besides Incarnum, which I already think doesn't belong, I really want to see what stuff you don't believe to have been attributed to Ki.
'Incarnum' isn't enough?
Because the Ki classes do stuff that the designers don't want the other power sources doing.
Why does one concept not get powers that another, nearly identical concept does?
Why. What reasons do you have to believe that will come to pass?
Read the rest of the post you're quoting.
If I was making a full scale high end Wuxia epic I would need a lot of special effects equipment, and that is what the Ki classes would be for D&D.
Because high-level Martial, Arcane, Divine, Psi, Shadow, and Elemental powers wouldn't require special effects? ...
What sort of complaints would you consider legitimate? And why do you seem to be implying that Asian=AWESOME means Asian=BETTER and not Asian=INTERTESTING.
Legitimate complaints: The Ki power source bears no resemblance to the source material. The resulting classes bear no resemblance to any of the concepts that people were hoping to play with them. That sort of thing. People saying that they don't want the material included at all? They don't have to include it, so forget them. Legitimate complaints on this subject are the sort that want the material, but want good material.
They can make or use another class that isn't Ki?
Can they? Not without a lot of patching and houseruling, they can't. Classes take up a lot of conceptual room. If a class represents a specific concept, but does so badly, then it ensures there will never be a good representation of that concept.
So the forums as usual.
Yeah, pretty much.
Why is this necessary? 'Ki' is typically invoked when there is no other explanation for superhuman stuff. Once you've accepted that physical training and mental focus allow people to perform superhuman feats, it becomes redundant. The only distinguishing feature between 'ki' and other power sources is Asianness.
Wrong. There's a difference between the "superhuman" of the existing martial classes and the "superhuman" of Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon.
I'm somewhat concerned that 4E considers 'ki' to be equal to 'soul', despite the conceptual inaccuracy, so they can shove Incarnum in alongside to pad out otherwise narrow concepts. It's not like we've got a bunch of ideas on Ki archetypes.
There's absolutely no reason to think that incarnum is part of Ki, except for incarnum involving souls and ki involving your soul. As far as I know, no developer has made any comment about 4e and incarnum and all. I'm pretty convinced that the whole ki/incarnum thing is a forum tempest.
You're going on about a storytelling and cinematic style, which is rather beyond the scope of classes. That's DM territory.
Not particularly. A character's fighting style is heavily related to what I'm going to call its choreography.
The difference between the typical anime "ronin" archetype and any other sword-using martial character is that the ronin is so very much more skilled than the others, faster and capable of crazy attacks due to sheer technical superiority.
I disagree. Its true that part of the wandering swordsman archetype is that the wandering swordsman protagonist wanders about and wins fights because he's so much more awesome than everyone else. But its to be expected that the main character in his own story be pretty awesome. D&D brings together character archetypes that are often protagonists from disparate genres and provides a framework that unifies them and lets them compete with each other on equal terms. You just focus on what the archetype does that's unique, and expand upon that while equalizing the power level with the rest of the classes in the game. You clearly don't believe that there's anything else there except "martial but more awesome,"; but I disagree. And honestly this is the sort of argument that you inevitably get to lose- all it takes for you to lose the debate is for one person to come up with a neat mechanic for a wandering swordsman that doesn't really fit into the martial power source, and you're screwed. Will that neat mechanic cover every single wandering swordsman exemplar from fiction? Probably not. But no class covers everything perfectly. Its enough to just do a good job.
As far as the ability to balance the game goes, I mean, we've got the barbarian, swordmage, paladin, and avenger so far. Each one of them could be described as "fights with a sword like a fighter, but MOAR AWESOME!" And then you'd add in the fact that the barbarian has PRIMAL RAGE!, and can channel the power of the earth to attain supernatural resilience and strength! And the swordmage can channel ARCANE POWERZ!, shooting fire from his sword!. And the paladin can channel the power of GOD ITSELF, smiting and scorching his foes! And the avenger can channel HIS god, teleporting, phasing, and crushing his enemies!
And yet they all balance just fine with the basic martial classes, and all of them work just as plausibly alongside the martial classes. All that's needed for Ki to do the same thing is for someone to come up with something that Ki provides a given class that isn't provided by sheer martial skill, and then for the numbers to be set evenly.
Wrong. There's a difference between the "superhuman" of the existing martial classes and the "superhuman" of Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon.
Point out to me the Martial characters in CTHD. There are none. Because 'ki' has replaced the concept in that series. This is an example of Ki being Martial except MOAR AWESOME.
There's absolutely no reason to think that incarnum is part of Ki, except for incarnum involving souls and ki involving your soul. As far as I know, no developer has made any comment about 4e and incarnum and all. I'm pretty convinced that the whole ki/incarnum thing is a forum tempest.
This is true. However, why have they explained more than once that the animus and the soul are different, and that 'ki' is the soul and not the animus? If they actually know what 'ki' means in the first place, the only reason why they'd redefine it as something else is to merge concepts. Pad them out where they would be rather thin.
Not particularly. A character's fighting style is heavily related to what I'm going to call its choreography.
You were talking about Qui-Gon Jinn's death. I assumed you meant the storytelling. You were talking about that scene's vomit-worthy choreography?
Regardless, I'd like to point out that two characters using the same attack power could describe the action in very different ways. There's your 'choreography.'
I disagree. Its true that part of the wandering swordsman archetype is that the wandering swordsman protagonist wanders about and wins fights because he's so much more awesome than everyone else. But its to be expected that the main character in his own story be pretty awesome. D&D brings together character archetypes that are often protagonists from disparate genres and provides a framework that unifies them and lets them compete with each other on equal terms. You just focus on what the archetype does that's unique, and expand upon that while equalizing the power level with the rest of the classes in the game. You clearly don't believe that there's anything else there except "martial but more awesome,"; but I disagree. And honestly this is the sort of argument that you inevitably get to lose- all it takes for you to lose the debate is for one person to come up with a neat mechanic for a wandering swordsman that doesn't really fit into the martial power source, and you're screwed. Will that neat mechanic cover every single wandering swordsman exemplar from fiction? Probably not. But no class covers everything perfectly. Its enough to just do a good job.
You specifically mentioned Himura Kenshin in your post. Would you agree that he's a pretty good representative of the wandering swordsman protagonist? Because I've watched the entire series, and read some of it, and I'm not seeing anything in there that can't be justified with Martial abilities of sufficient level.
As far as the ability to balance the game goes, I mean, we've got the barbarian, swordmage, paladin, and avenger so far. Each one of them could be described as "fights with a sword like a fighter, but MOAR AWESOME!" And then you'd add in the fact that the barbarian has PRIMAL RAGE!, and can channel the power of the earth to attain supernatural resilience and strength! And the swordmage can channel ARCANE POWERZ!, shooting fire from his sword!. And the paladin can channel the power of GOD ITSELF, smiting and scorching his foes! And the avenger can channel HIS god, teleporting, phasing, and crushing his enemies!
And yet they all balance just fine with the basic martial classes, and all of them work just as plausibly alongside the martial classes. All that's needed for Ki to do the same thing is for someone to come up with something that Ki provides a given class that isn't provided by sheer martial skill, and then for the numbers to be set evenly.
The difference is that the concepts you propose for a ki-based archetype largely approach fighting the exact same way that a Martial character does. The concepts are generally Martial in nature. It's just that they're high-level characters. I just don't see the need for a class that does the same things as a Martial class does, only the fancy things do less damage because they're accessible at a much, much lower level.
Not the same thing at all. In most fiction where ki is referenced at all, it's the reason why people can surpass 'realistic' human abilities. By definition, it doesn't coexist with the Martial power source, because it is the Martial power source in those stories.
I actually know of a series where both "Martial" power source and "Ki" power source characters exist side by side: Tenjho Tenge. Their are two sets of superhuman martial artists in this series: the White Feather families, for example Masataka Takayanagi, and the Red Feather families, for example Souichiro Nagi. While both groups use their "ki" to make themselves superhuman, the White Feather characters are realistic "Martial" characters and the Red Feather characters are supernatural "Ki" characters.
Meanwhile, Arcane, Psionic, and Shadow aren't mutually exclusive, or inherently superior versions of each other.
This simply makes it clear that Ki is MOAR AWESOME.
They can do everything Martial characters can do, but with MOAR AWESOME!
Most people call Tempest and Battlerager Fighters "MOAR AWESOME" than one or two handed Fighters, but they aren't that much better. In previous editions and possibly even now Paladins were just Fighters with "MOAR AWESOME" divine powers. So whats wrong with something being "MOAR AWESOME" as long as things are pretty close to balanced?
Check the PHB. And Open Grave, apparently.
Already did. I have both books and there is no mention of Incarnum in any of them.
Like Martial, NOW WITH MOAR AWESOME!
MOAR AWESOME!
[sarcasm]Oh! So you you think these archetypes are more interesting the Martial archetypes![/sarcasm]
Why isn't this Arcane, Divine, or Psionic?
They would not be mess with reality by casting spells so they are not Arcane. They are not tapping into the power of a god so they are not Divine. We don't know much about the Psionic power source, but what we do know comes from the fact that the Enchanter and Empath Archetypes are supposed to be covered by Psionics, and from that I have to say that it would not be Psionic because it doesn't mess with other peoples minds.
Shadow and Elemental are power sources too.
But what do we know about these power sources?
Shadow will supposedly have classes that cover the Necromancer and Illusionist archetypes. Saying a Ninja should be in here because it plays in shadows is as ill advised as saying the Rouge should be Shadow for the same reasons.
We know nothing of the Elemental power source except for its name. Using the argument that a class should be Elemental because it has powers that do elemental damage would support the Wizard being an Elemental class.
Quoting Steely_Dan
That really doesn't help. Dan didn't say there weren't any just that he could not think of any. I even tossed up four classes (Monk, Soulblade, Zen Archer and Mystical Ninja) that I think would fit well in the Ki power source earlier in my post. What I wanted to know was what were the 1 or 2 class concepts that you said you could see fitting in Ki.
'Incarnum' isn't enough?
I thought you knew of other things that might be shoehorned in. If their isn't that is fine by me.
Why does one concept not get powers that another, nearly identical concept does?
Because one concept does not want powers or does not want the same amount of those powers as the other does.
Read the rest of the post you're quoting.
I did and I'm just not following your logic. What proof, circumstantial or empirical, do you have that WotC plans on making Ki classes mechanically superior to the Martial classes?
Because high-level Martial, Arcane, Divine, Psi, Shadow, and Elemental powers wouldn't require special effects? ...
Sorry my mistake here. It was supposed to be a Movie = D&D Campaign comparison. In short, if a D&D campaign was a movie, the Ki classes would be the wirework equipment needed to make it a high end Wuxia epic.
Legitimate complaints: The Ki power source bears no resemblance to the source material. The resulting classes bear no resemblance to any of the concepts that people were hoping to play with them. That sort of thing. People saying that they don't want the material included at all? They don't have to include it, so forget them. Legitimate complaints on this subject are the sort that want the material, but want good material.
Sounds like the exact position I'm arguing from.
Can they? Not without a lot of patching and houseruling, they can't. Classes take up a lot of conceptual room. If a class represents a specific concept, but does so badly, then it ensures there will never be a good representation of that concept.
How does the existence of a badly done class prevent the existence of a class that pulls the concept of well? There is very little stopping a 3rd party publisher from making a class that covers the concept better.Which Street Fighter characters? Because a standard-sized class, a Ki Power supplement, and the typical feat selection size wouldn't be enough to cover all the SF characters.
Well, in all seriousness, most of the powers are goign to be flavored as X Punch and Y Kick I'm sure. And stances... I woudl assume they woudl have stances. Some limited ranged capabilities (Ki blasts... a hadoken, a kamehameha, a kikkoken, a rasengan or chidori, etc. yes, i know I mixed sources there...
) would round out the monk nicely I think.Then again, I guess I'm just a big Street Fighter and anime geek. :D
Energeia is an ambiguous term whose real meaning is undetermined, and the best guesses I've seen have a more scientific energy meaning than anything else we're talking about.
I think the OP spelled it wrong. I'm sure he meant ENERGON! :D
I actually know of a series where both "Martial" power source and "Ki" power source characters exist side by side: Tenjho Tenge. Their are two sets of superhuman martial artists in this series: the White Feather families, for example Masataka Takayanagi, and the Red Feather families, for example Souichiro Nagi. While both groups use their "ki" to make themselves superhuman, the White Feather characters are realistic "Martial" characters and the Red Feather characters are supernatural "Ki" characters.
The key part is bolded. The actual difference between the family groups is more that the Red Feather families have inborn mystical powers.
Most people call Tempest and Battlerager Fighters "MOAR AWESOME" than one or two handed Fighters, but they aren't that much better. In previous editions and possibly even now Paladins were just Fighters with "MOAR AWESOME" divine powers. So whats wrong with something being "MOAR AWESOME" as long as things are pretty close to balanced?
You're apparently confused. Tempest and Battlerager Fighters have the exact same power selection options as another Fighter. That means they can't be the same thing. Now, if they were capable of SOOPER AWESUM SPETIAL ATAKS! that other Fighters weren't - not necessarily more powerful mechanically, but with extra ninja-flips just because they're so bad*** - then the Tempest and Battlerager would be "MOAR AWESOME" like people are saying the Ki-based classes should be.
Already did. I have both books and there is no mention of Incarnum in any of them.
Once again, they're equating Ki with Soul in those two books. Either they're doing this out of ignorance, or they've made a conscious design decision. My concern is that they're doing this in order to line up Ki and Incarnum to be the same power source.
[sarcasm]Oh! So you you think these archetypes are more interesting the Martial archetypes![/sarcasm]
No. They are simply doing things that Martial archetypes should be able to do, but better. And that's a problem.
They would not be mess with reality by casting spells so they are not Arcane. They are not tapping into the power of a god so they are not Divine. We don't know much about the Psionic power source, but what we do know comes from the fact that the Enchanter and Empath Archetypes are supposed to be covered by Psionics, and from that I have to say that it would not be Psionic because it doesn't mess with other peoples minds.
Let me approach this one another way. Ya know what? I agree that an archer that manifests arrows onto a bow would be a good example of using the power of ki. There's even a very popular example - Ishida Uryu from Bleach. Now, how would this class work? Obviously, they would have to be very good with a bow, as that's their whole shtick. What other class is good with a bow, currently? The Ranger. The Ranger, on the other hand, always requires ammunition. This is a drawback, compared to the hypothetical bow-using Ki class. How, then, do you balance this? Make the class that doesn't require ammunition slightly less powerful in other ways to make up for this disadvantage? Is that really suitable? I mean, this class is shooting special arrows, not actual ones, so surely they'd be at least as powerful. How would you differentiate the two otherwise? I mean, they're both classes that are devoted - or in the Ranger's case, half-devoted - to the use of the bow. Being supremely skilled with the weapon is the thing for both classes, or at least half of the Ranger and the whole other class. They're sharing turf. But with the Ki class being a full class devoted to the bow, and capable of supernatural tricks with it, it would seem pretty clear that it would be seen as better than the Ranger with the bow. It would get all the new bow tricks that the Ranger could have otherwise. In essence, it edges the Ranger out of archery, by virtue of embodying 'archer' better than the Ranger could. Why not just make this a Ranger Paragon Path?
But what do we know about these power sources?
Shadow will supposedly have classes that cover the Necromancer and Illusionist archetypes. Saying a Ninja should be in here because it plays in shadows is as ill advised as saying the Rouge should be Shadow for the same reasons.
We know nothing of the Elemental power source except for its name. Using the argument that a class should be Elemental because it has powers that do elemental damage would support the Wizard being an Elemental class.
You're the one that brought up shadow and elemental powers, not me. You used those exact words. I would think that, if you wanted shadow-and-elemental based powers, you should probably start by looking at the Shadow and Elemental power sources.
That really doesn't help. Dan didn't say there weren't any just that he could not think of any. I even tossed up four classes (Monk, Soulblade, Zen Archer and Mystical Ninja) that I think would fit well in the Ki power source earlier in my post. What I wanted to know was what were the 1 or 2 class concepts that you said you could see fitting in Ki.
Monk, apparently, and Sohei. Nothing else has been suggested that seems particularly appropriate.
I thought you knew of other things that might be shoehorned in. If their isn't that is fine by me.
I don't have any 4E info that other people don't know already.
Because one concept does not want powers or does not want the same amount of those powers as the other does.
Concepts don't have desires. But if I were to guess, I'd say that you mean that some people don't want those powers. Which is fine - powers are optional.
I did and I'm just not following your logic. What proof, circumstantial or empirical, do you have that WotC plans on making Ki classes mechanically superior to the Martial classes?
You seem to be confusing mechanically and thematically.
Sorry my mistake here. It was supposed to be a Movie = D&D Campaign comparison. In short, if a D&D campaign was a movie, the Ki classes would be the wirework equipment needed to make it a high end Wuxia epic.
Once again, why should the other power sources not need special effects?
Every table I've been at has a "no third party material" policy. We're talking WotC material here.
I think the OP spelled it wrong. I'm sure he meant ENERGON! :D
I actually pulled it from a list of synonyms for 'chi'.
Let's say I want to make a character based off of Inigo Montoya from The Princess Bride. The key things I want for him are based off of the movie. I want him to be able to take out four close packed minions in under six seconds (one round). I want him to be driven by something inside of him that lets him do things usually impossible. I want that thing driving him to let him hinder the abilities of others by projecting itself out at others. It'd be even better if he could call on the energy driving him to guide him when he's lost.
I might not be asking too much for a new class to cover this type of character, but the recent debate on this thread seems to be whether or not to use martial power. He seems somewhat martial, but he doesn't wear armor or carry a shield and the above mentioned abilities are beyond what other martial characters do also. I propose that a ki class could cover his abilities where his "soul power" is equated to the desire of revenge driving him beyond martial abilities. When he repeatedly shouts "Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father; prepare to die." that is like a projection of that inner soul power, or kiai as it might be called in Japanese. It seems to have three different effect too. The first time he says it, it makes his opponent run in fear. The second time, it makes him block better (but I'll concede that this might just be because he used a second wind). The last time he says it, his opponent is easier to hit. Seems to be a debuffing ability. When he finds the knot in the tree that leads him to the pit of despair it is because he channels the energy of revenge from within himself to guide him, much like a ki ritual or utility power might be able to do.
In my mind, Inigo Montoya is a great idea for a low level ki controller. Other fictional characters that could also fit into the class are Himura Kenshin from Rurouni Kenshin or Broken Sword from Hero. All three characters had a force driving them to do what they did and that force let them do things beyond the scope of martial powers.
I'm not asking for an overpowered martial class; I'm asking for new mechanics that are on par with other controllers, but let me do cool things I've seen in movies. Call the class samurai, blade master, or ronin; I don't care.
Now Wizards of the Coast might not produce anything like this. They might even stick a class like this into another power source. My point is just that I see this as a possibility for a class that fits the power source without just being a class that makes martial classes feel like a red headed step child. Who knows, maybe Wizards will even end up trying to shoehorn a class like this into the martial power source later on. I just think that there is ample room and opportunity to easily slide this fun idea into a ki class sooner than later.
His name was Temujin, the man who would be known as Chinggis/Genghis Khan.
The key part is bolded. The actual difference between the family groups is more that the Red Feather families have inborn mystical powers.
That is not important. What is important is that there are two groups of martial artists one more grounded in reality and the other supernatural.
You're apparently confused. Tempest and Battlerager Fighters have the exact same power selection options as another Fighter. That means they can't be the same thing. Now, if they were capable of SOOPER AWESUM SPETIAL ATAKS! that other Fighters weren't - not necessarily more powerful mechanically, but with extra ninja-flips just because they're so bad*** - then the Tempest and Battlerager would be "MOAR AWESOME" like people are saying the Ki-based classes should be.
A Battlerager Fighter can handle literal armies of minions without breaking a sweat; can other Fighters do so? No. Tempest Fighters can deal out damage that makes Strikers envious. While they don't pull off so called "SOOPER AWESUM SPETIAL ATAKS!" they are still "MOAR AWESOME" then "plain jane" one and two handed Fighters.
Once again, they're equating Ki with Soul in those two books. Either they're doing this out of ignorance, or they've made a conscious design decision. My concern is that they're doing this in order to line up Ki and Incarnum to be the same power source.
Well I don't think that WotC is planning to do that and that the ones who do believe that WotC should are a little loopy.
Though I do agree with you that Ki and Incarnum shouldn't be merged.
No. They are simply doing things that Martial archetypes should be able to do, but better. And that's a problem.
Let me approach this one another way. Ya know what? I agree that an archer that manifests arrows onto a bow would be a good example of using the power of ki. There's even a very popular example - Ishida Uryu from Bleach. Now, how would this class work? Obviously, they would have to be very good with a bow, as that's their whole shtick. What other class is good with a bow, currently? The Ranger. The Ranger, on the other hand, always requires ammunition. This is a drawback, compared to the hypothetical bow-using Ki class. How, then, do you balance this? Make the class that doesn't require ammunition slightly less powerful in other ways to make up for this disadvantage? Is that really suitable? I mean, this class is shooting special arrows, not actual ones, so surely they'd be at least as powerful. How would you differentiate the two otherwise? I mean, they're both classes that are devoted - or in the Ranger's case, half-devoted - to the use of the bow. Being supremely skilled with the weapon is the thing for both classes, or at least half of the Ranger and the whole other class. They're sharing turf. But with the Ki class being a full class devoted to the bow, and capable of supernatural tricks with it, it would seem pretty clear that it would be seen as better than the Ranger with the bow. It would get all the new bow tricks that the Ranger could have otherwise. In essence, it edges the Ranger out of archery, by virtue of embodying 'archer' better than the Ranger could. Why not just make this a Ranger Paragon Path?
What?! All you just said was that the Woodsman should stay the best archer just because he was first! He's good with the bow because its a common tool used in the wilderness. And 1/2 the class is devoted to the bow? Wrong, its less than 1/3. Most of the Utilities are based around woodland travel.
You are basically arguing that the game doesn't need an Illusionist because the Wizard got some illusion powers in a Dragon article. Necromancer? Many of the Arcane and Divine classes just got a bunch of necromantic abilities. Are you saying that people should not be able to play these classes just because they share ground with already existing classes.
You're the one that brought up shadow and elemental powers, not me. You used those exact words. I would think that, if you wanted shadow-and-elemental based powers, you should probably start by looking at the Shadow and Elemental power sources.
Shadow? Necromancer, Illusionist
Monk, apparently, and Sohei. Nothing else has been suggested that seems particularly appropriate.
You just said that my Zen Archer would work, but you didn't like it because you feel that it would out archer the Ranger.
Concepts don't have desires. But if I were to guess, I'd say that you mean that some people don't want those powers. Which is fine - powers are optional.
So there should be martial powers that let fighters perform long range air slashes, the ranger fire freezing arrows and rogues phase through solid walls?
You seem to be confusing mechanically and thematically.
No I am not. No matter the fluff unless the mechanics back it up no class can be better with a sword than the Fighter who specializes in it.
Once again, why should the other power sources not need special effects?
To continue the allusion, if I wanted to make a movie with Arcane, Psionic, Divine, Shadow or Elemental special effects I would still need special equipment to do them. Fireball throwing mage needs his explosions.
Every table I've been at has a "no third party material" policy. We're talking WotC material here.
That is personal/group preference. Remember Rule Zero always exists as an option and not choosing to use it is as much a choice as using it.
That is not important. What is important is that there are two groups of martial artists one more grounded in reality and the other supernatural.
The character you give as an example for most grounded in reality has the widest variety of ki techniques in the freaking series. Thank you for illustrating my point.
A Battlerager Fighter can handle literal armies of minions without breaking a sweat; can other Fighters do so? No. Tempest Fighters can deal out damage that makes Strikers envious. While they don't pull off so called "SOOPER AWESUM SPETIAL ATAKS!" they are still "MOAR AWESOME" then "plain jane" one and two handed Fighters.
Again, mechanics vs. thematics. I'm not talking about game balance, because that's not even an issue at this point.
What?! All you just said was that the Woodsman should stay the best archer just because he was first! He's good with the bow because its a common tool used in the wilderness. And 1/2 the class is devoted to the bow? Wrong, its less than 1/3. Most of the Utilities are based around woodland travel.
You are basically arguing that the game doesn't need an Illusionist because the Wizard got some illusion powers in a Dragon article. Necromancer? Many of the Arcane and Divine classes just got a bunch of necromantic abilities. Are you saying that people should not be able to play these classes just because they share ground with already existing classes.
No. I'm saying that there shouldn't be a new class that does the exact same thing that an existing class does, but does it better. An archer Ranger is an archer, first and foremost, and who would play one if there was another, better archer?
Also, there are no "woodland travel" utilities, though I'll grant that I didn't factor the Beastmaster Ranger in, so 1/3. Doesn't change the idea that a super-archer would invalidate the everyday archer.
Shadow? Necromancer, Illusionist
And we don't know what else yet. We don't know where a shadow-power themed ninja would fall, but given a choice between Ki and Shadow, I'd guess that shadows will be linked with Shadow.
You just said that my Zen Archer would work, but you didn't like it because you feel that it would out archer the Ranger.
... I don't think you know what 'Zen' means. I'll help you out. It doesn't mean "I shoot arrows made from my life force."
So there should be martial powers that let fighters perform long range air slashes, the ranger fire freezing arrows and rogues phase through solid walls?
Long-range air slashes? Why not? That attack is usually done via the old I-swing-my-sword-so-hard-it-creates-a-vacuum-wave chestnut, and I don't see why the Ki power source would let a person swing their sword harder than another character whose entire point is to be really good with a sword. Freezing arrows, phasing through walls? I'd be more comfortable with those as Arcane or Psi, or as part of a Paragon Path.
No I am not. No matter the fluff unless the mechanics back it up no class can be better with a sword than the Fighter who specializes in it.
So why are you also arguing that a Ki-based character should be able to make attacks based on skill with a sword that a Martial character can't?
To continue the allusion, if I wanted to make a movie with Arcane, Psionic, Divine, Shadow or Elemental special effects I would still need special equipment to do them. Fireball throwing mage needs his explosions.
I'm looking at some high-level Martial stuff right now. Trust me, you're going to need special effects equipment no matter what class you want to put in the movie. And if you tell the story right, it can be a kung fu epic with most of them.
That is personal/group preference. Remember Rule Zero always exists as an option and not choosing to use it is as much a choice as using it.
We're discussing WotC official releases here. I don't care what 3rd party developers do. I don't think WotC wants to take a stance of encouraging people to buy other people's products instead of their own.
Also, SongSooGumbup? You're insane. Inigo Montoya was a definitive Artful Dodger.
Dang, I thought I had left this debate a week ago, but here I am posting twice in one day.
Let's say I want to make a character based off of Inigo Montoya from The Princess Bride. The key things I want for him are based off of the movie. I want him to be able to take out four close packed minions in under six seconds (one round). I want him to be driven by something inside of him that lets him do things usually impossible. I want that thing driving him to let him hinder the abilities of others by projecting itself out at others. It'd be even better if he could call on the energy driving him to guide him when he's lost.
Are you sure you were watching the same movie I was? Because Inigo was great at stabbing people quickly, but that's the only thing that he did that at all resembles what you posted. Though he did make a pretty sweet Intimidate check at the end of his battle with Rugen after he was bloodied.
In the book, it describes Inigo's training in detail. He is an embodiment of all the Martial power source is.
I might not be asking too much for a new class to cover this type of character, but the recent debate on this thread seems to be whether or not to use martial power. He seems somewhat martial, but he doesn't wear armor or carry a shield and the above mentioned abilities are beyond what other martial characters do also. I propose that a ki class could cover his abilities where his "soul power" is equated to the desire of revenge driving him beyond martial abilities. When he repeatedly shouts "Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father; prepare to die." that is like a projection of that inner soul power, or kiai as it might be called in Japanese. It seems to have three different effect too. The first time he says it, it makes his opponent run in fear. The second time, it makes him block better (but I'll concede that this might just be because he used a second wind). The last time he says it, his opponent is easier to hit. Seems to be a debuffing ability.
It's an Intimidate check.
When he finds the knot in the tree that leads him to the pit of despair it is because he channels the energy of revenge from within himself to guide him, much like a ki ritual or utility power might be able to do.
He prays for guidance. He didn't "channel the energy" of anything.
In my mind, Inigo Montoya is a great idea for a low level ki controller. Other fictional characters that could also fit into the class are Himura Kenshin from Rurouni Kenshin or Broken Sword from Hero. All three characters had a force driving them to do what they did and that force let them do things beyond the scope of martial powers.
Force of will is well within the Martial framework. All those characters are doing things because of their extreme physical training and skill, and they are in no way beyond the scope of what Martial powers do, even now.
I'm not asking for an overpowered martial class; I'm asking for new mechanics that are on par with other controllers, but let me do cool things I've seen in movies. Call the class samurai, blade master, or ronin; I don't care.
Now Wizards of the Coast might not produce anything like this. They might even stick a class like this into another power source. My point is just that I see this as a possibility for a class that fits the power source without just being a class that makes martial classes feel like a red headed step child. Who knows, maybe Wizards will even end up trying to shoehorn a class like this into the martial power source later on. I just think that there is ample room and opportunity to easily slide this fun idea into a ki class sooner than later.
This is precisely the sort of idea for a Martial controller that's already been shot down repeatedly. Nothing has changed with you suggesting that it might be a Ki class - it's still a Martial concept, and it's still not a Controller.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWB2jWa1-dM
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnVCYOUB0gY
(off course I'm not expecting a 'Giant Mecha' implement)
I want to wield my life force and will the same way a Martial classes wields a sword or the Wizard wields arcane energy.
I just want something a little different. Is that so wrong?
Oh and here is an exemple of Ki marking! OMG!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCDShOxhjyg
Anyway, if you're looking to use your life force as a weapon, you might just be out of luck. That's the animus, or ki - but WotC has said that Ki will equal Soul. It's uncertain if this is deliberate or out of ignorance. If it's the latter, it's also uncertain if they'll fix the mistake.
The power source in Saint Seiya is pretty complicated, but it's sort of an astrology thing, so the closest you'll get to an actual power source is Arcane. Though Divine sort of fits too. So I don't see why you need a Ki power source for that. It's no closer than any other power source.
Wot?! Complicated? Astrology?
Have you seen/read Saint Seiya?! Its all powered by the Cosmo inside of you! Training hard to make the universe within explode and use that power to attack the atomic structure of matter itself!!
Off course it does blurr the line a little at certain points but in the end the mesure of a Saint's power comes from his resolve and his sense of justice.
Wot?! Complicated? Astrology?
Have you seen/read Saint Seiya?! Its all powered by the Cosmo inside of you! Training hard to make the universe within explode and use that power to attack the atomic structure of matter itself!!
Off course it does blurr the line a little at certain points but in the end the mesure of a Saint's power comes from his resolve and his sense of justice.
So, in the translation you read, it's a combination of the 'willpower' component of the Martial power source and... being God, apparently. Or possibly that's the bit that was emphasized more than the other explanations. As good as any of the others I've heard.
So, in the translation you read, it's a combination of the 'willpower' component of the Martial power source and... being God, apparently. Or possibly that's the bit that was emphasized more than the other explanations. As good as any of the others I've heard.
I read the original Saint Seiya manga and I am currently reading Episode G (got volume 15 last week! WOOT!) and The Lost Canvas (Where the Hades is my volume 3 KUROKAWA!!! GRR!).
The whole thing with cosmo is that we are of the same essence as the universe we live, built from the same building blocks as everything else, thus we are a little universe ourself. The Saints of Athena (and plenty of their rivals like the Poiseidon Sea Generals and Hades Spectres) tap into that universe, into the essence of their life, their souls and make it EXPLODE into an incredible power! The Saints of Athena will not be afraid to burn their very life away if it means victory, if it means protecting someone.
The cosmo is also refered to as the '7th sense' (with psychic powers, the mind, being the 6th) and you can only reach your true pinacle by realizing it is so. In more than one occasion the characters in Saint Seiya lose one or more sense (Ikki even got ALL SIX of his senses taken away at one point) and just like a blind man gets better hearing their cosmo would get stronger.
The cosmo, at least in the case of Saggitarius Aiolos has also be shown to have a link with soul has his cosmo 'remains' with his brother and his spiritual successors, helping them in times of need, plus a Saint sent to the realm of Hades as a soul still has all of his cosmo ability (at least if he has open himself to the 8th sense and can prevent from being a mindless dead as per greek legends).
Suffice to say... I know my Saint Seiya mythos pretty well :D
Nice post MatthiasKaiser.
Okay, if we're going to play that game: nice posts, Cadfan and Ultimatecaliber.
The only distinguishing feature between 'ki' and other power sources is Asianness.
No, it's the magic/power of the soul in 4th Ed, whether you like it or not, so that alone distinguishes it from every other power source.
I never watched Naruto, never really heard of Naruto and really don't care about Naruto. And it's not going to change for me. So why should that get forced down everyone's throat?
Here's another reason why I don't like what half the posters on the other side of the argument are suggesting...
I never watched Naruto, never really heard of Naruto and really don't care about Naruto. And it's not going to change for me. So why should that get forced down everyone's throat?
Because D&D isn't all about you.
There are classes I don't like. I try not to get enraged that they exist.
The character you give as an example for most grounded in reality has the widest variety of ki techniques in the freaking series. Thank you for illustrating my point.
Okay so Takayanagi may not have been the best example, but there are still other "Martial" characters. For example Kagesada Sugano, Bob Makihara, and Bunshichi Tawara as well as others.
Again, mechanics vs. thematics. I'm not talking about game balance, because that's not even an issue at this point.
Why are you even focused on thematics? If a Ki and Martial character of equal level can make 100 foot long jumps what is saying that one is better than the other? If anything it says that the Martial character is better. He did it on pure physical ability, the Ki character needs a special "trick" to pull it off.
I just do not get why you think that thematics will make one class better and one class worse when they do the exact same things equally well.
No. I'm saying that there shouldn't be a new class that does the exact same thing that an existing class does, but does it better. An archer Ranger is an archer, first and foremost, and who would play one if there was another, better archer?
Actually no the archery Rangers is not an archer first and foremost. All rangers are first and foremost wilderness guides, and archer, two-weapon warrior and beastmaster are all different styles of the wilderness guide.
If a player is focusing mostly on the archer aspect, he is pretty much already ignoring the wilderness guide part of the Ranger and a zen archer class may end up fitting his character concept better.
Doesn't change the idea that a super-archer would invalidate the everyday archer.
If there were 2 balanced bow using classes, the difference between a "super" archer and an everyday archer is one of level not class. A level 10 Archery Ranger and a level 10 Zen Archer would both be "super" archers.
... I don't think you know what 'Zen' means. I'll help you out. It doesn't mean "I shoot arrows made from my life force."
Oh I know what Zen means. It refers to a path of reaching enlightenment by pure understanding. But that is neither here nor there. I was using Zen Archer as a place holder name for the class because I feel the concept as presented in the 3.X feat and Order of the Bow Initiate has some decent traction.
Long-range air slashes? Why not? That attack is usually done via the old I-swing-my-sword-so-hard-it-creates-a-vacuum-wave chestnut, and I don't see why the Ki power source would let a person swing their sword harder than another character whose entire point is to be really good with a sword. Freezing arrows, phasing through walls? I'd be more comfortable with those as Arcane or Psi, or as part of a Paragon Path.
While you may feel that way others and WotC does not. Rob Heinsoo talked about this in the Martial Power interview.
Wizards of the Coast: Let’s take a step back into general 4th Edition design philosophy… what can you tell us about the rationale for “power sources”—why were they created, what did you hope to accomplish with them, and how is the “martial” power source best defined?
Rob Heinsoo: Power sources are a way of describing the magical rules and flavor of our world while grouping classes who share some fundamental aspect of their approach to their power. The D&D world already contained the notion that some characters used arcane magic while others used divine magic; we just extended that notion to cover all our characters and to organize our class creation as the game develops over the years.
Martial classes get most of their personal power from skill that may start as innate but increases as a matter of constant training. Compared to all the other power sources, the martial power source doesn’t tend to look or feel magical. But since it’s the type of highly skilled weapon training that occurs in a world that’s full of magic, there are effects created by highly skilled martial characters that would certainly seem magical if they were occurring in our world. Unlike all the other power sources, the powers used by martial characters don’t have obvious magical special effects, no flashing auras, or looming spirits, or rays and bolts, or even after-effect images of an incredibly fast sword. Martial powers look like powers that a warrior or rogue in our non-magical world might use, even if they accomplish things that people in our world would have almost no chance of accomplishing.
So why are you also arguing that a Ki-based character should be able to make attacks based on skill with a sword that a Martial character can't?
Yes. See the interview for why.
I'm looking at some high-level Martial stuff right now. Trust me, you're going to need special effects equipment no matter what class you want to put in the movie. And if you tell the story right, it can be a kung fu epic with most of them.
True, but different equipment helps pull off different stuff easier.
Also, SongSooGumbup? You're insane. Inigo Montoya was a definitive Artful Dodger.
That is only one interpretation. SongSooGumbup's is just a viable as yours. You may not like it, but its still viable.
1) Ki classes are going to exist. I don't think you can stop it.
2) Most likely it's going to for a different feel than martial or arcane or whatever you can try to justify already fills in the niche.
3) Arguing that Ki in fact is nothing by martial awesomeness with the caveat of "moar awesome" is kinda tiring, and at this point is based more on bias than it is on fact or any sort of evidence we have save speculation and heresay.
4) I suspect many of the arguments at this point are thinly veiled jabs of pure contempt against the idea of Ki.
5) It may seem that somewhere, Ki is destroying someone's idea of a good time.
6) I doubt it's actually true; and it's only perceived as such.
7) I reiterate, unless WotC completely crashes from the economic crisis the US is currently suffering, there will be Ki Classes. Learn to accept it.
Here's another reason why I don't like what half the posters on the other side of the argument are suggesting...
I never watched Naruto, never really heard of Naruto and really don't care about Naruto. And it's not going to change for me. So why should that get forced down everyone's throat?
Too bad, it's actually a good series. But that's beside the point. The real point is... what does Naruto have to do with it? There have been mystical martial arts in pop-culture long, loooooooooooong before Naruto. Long before the start of wuxia films. Not even just in asian cultures.
Too bad, it's actually a good series. But that's beside the point. The real point is... what does Naruto have to do with it? There have been mystical martial arts in pop-culture long, loooooooooooong before Naruto. Long before the start of wuxia films. Not even just in asian cultures.
That's precisely the point, there's been a lot of finer examples of what's an Asian film long before that came along. But everyone on the other side of the argument likes to tout it as the be-all and end-all of how all of D&D and all Asian cinema should be.
Here's another reason why I don't like what half the posters on the other side of the argument are suggesting...
I never watched Naruto, never really heard of Naruto and really don't care about Naruto. And it's not going to change for me. So why should that get forced down everyone's throat?
The same reason Tolkein has been forced down other people's throats for years? Because it is popular?:P
The same reason Tolkein has been forced down other people's throats for years? Because it is popular?:P
It may be, but many have pointed out the Howard, Vance, Moorcook, and Lovecraft have more to do with D&D than Tolkien did.
Here's another reason why I don't like what half the posters on the other side of the argument are suggesting...
I never watched Naruto, never really heard of Naruto and really don't care about Naruto. And it's not going to change for me. So why should that get forced down everyone's throat?
What the hell has Naruto to do with anything in the argument really?
Go ready about the Fuuma clan, the old "shinobi" tales from japan. They breath fire, they stormed the seas, they had pointy teeth and white skin, the fantasy ninja has little to no resemblence with that show.
Want to see a fantasy ninja in action? Go play some Tenchu. Even if the game DOES have some "japanese pop culture influences", it does have better references to power and actions.
Also, this will come from a suplement. Don't buy it. It's just that simple.
That's precisely the point, there's been a lot of finer examples of what's an Asian film long before that came along. But everyone on the other side of the argument likes to tout it as the be-all and end-all of how all of D&D and all Asian cinema should be.
Well sure. All things being equal... it's damn good entertainment.
Plus it's current and in the forefront of people's minds.I'm not one to judge though. I simply prefer other shows.
That being said, I still stand by the other things I've said so far.
It may be, but many have pointed out the Howard, Vance, Moorcook, and Lovecraft have more to do with D&D than Tolkien does.
Fixed that statement for you.
Truth is, Tolkien used to have more to do with D&D than those authors did. Now he doesn't. And that makes me very happy. Because honestly, I'm more than a little tired of Tolkien fantasy.
Still, Tolkien is still a major influence on D&D. If not for Tolkien, the core races of D&D would not include dwarves, elves, halflings, or half-elves.
Why Have Ki?
Because regardless of the "real" meaning of Ki, a power source based around the manipulation of the soul/life-force is a valid concept, and Ki is the most easily identifiable name for this concept.
Why is Ki not attached to the Animus?
Most likely because the animus is already used for a power source. Due to the link between the animus and the Undead, I'm willing to bet shadow.
Why is the Monk a Ki class, and not Martial?
Because the supernatural monk is as valid a concept as the kung-fu monk, but the martial power source doesn't allow blatantly supernatural abilities. The opposite is not necessarily true (See Paladin).
Why no Samurai?
Because there's too much fiction about them. Samurai are attributed with 1001 different abilities, with few commonalities. One might empower his blade with the souls of defeated enemies, whilst another is fight with two swords and shouts a lot. The only thing they have in common, and thus the core of the class, is that they're all Japanese Swordsmen. Which are fighters.
What about Incarnum?
Ok, I have to assume that the people who are objecting to Incarnum's inclusion have never actually Read the book. Let me break it down:
The first thing you have to realise is that Incarnum contains TWO power sources. First of all there's "Generic Energy Field 37" which deals with soulmelds, but I'll come back to that in a second.
The second is Essentia.
What is essentia? Why, It's your character's own internal life-force! And if you trained with it (AkA Feats), you could improve your innate abilities! You could improve your Unarmed damage, run faster, fight invisible creatures, and even heal yourself! Any of this sound familiar?
Also notable are the Prestige classes that allowed you to bond with your weapons and armour, letting you use your essentia to increase their effectiveness and grant new abilities.
Then we have the aforementioned Soulmelds; In other words, the ability to form weapons and armour out of soul energy.
The only part of incarnum which isn't already included in Ki is the generic energy field, and this is the part of incarnum which is most disposable. Seriously, it didn't even matter in 3.5. Refluffing soulmelds so that they're made from essentia takes half a second, and doesn't actually change anything in game. Hell, some things make MORE sense that way.
Long story short, Ki with incarnum will be indistinguishable from Ki without incarnum.
Predictions
Ki classes will not care what weapon they use. A chair is as effective in thier hands as a Mordenkrad. Lots of thunder damage.
Classes:
Monk - Uses Ki to enhance his own body. Build options will consist of a choice between Internal and External fighting styles. Will be able to use all proficent weapons as implements, in addition to the Ki default implement.
Avatar - Defender who develops a mystical bond with his weapon. Can use his soul-bound weapon as an implement, nothing else.
Incarnate - Striker who uses Ki to form weapons and armour. Ranged. See here (Start at 3:45) and here (2:10 till 2:44)
Time for my 2cp.
Why Have Ki?
Because regardless of the "real" meaning of Ki, a power source based around the manipulation of the soul/life-force is a valid concept, and Ki is the most easily identifiable name for this concept.
Why is Ki not attached to the Animus?
Most likely because the animus is already used for a power source. Due to the link between the animus and the Undead, I'm willing to bet shadow.
Why is the Monk a Ki class, and not Martial?
Because the supernatural monk is as valid a concept as the kung-fu monk, but the martial power source doesn't allow blatantly supernatural abilities. The opposite is not necessarily true (See Paladin).
Why no Samurai?
Because there's too much fiction about them. Samurai are attributed with 1001 different abilities, with few commonalities. One might empower his blade with the souls of defeated enemies, whilst another is fight with two swords and shouts a lot. The only thing they have in common, and thus the core of the class, is that they're all Japanese Swordsmen. Which are fighters.
What about Incarnum?
Ok, I have to assume that the people who are objecting to Incarnum's inclusion have never actually Read the book. Let me break it down:
The first thing you have to realise is that Incarnum contains TWO power sources. First of all there's "Generic Energy Field 37" which deals with soulmelds, but I'll come back to that in a second.
The second is Essentia.
What is essentia? Why, It's your character's own internal life-force! And if you trained with it (AkA Feats), you could improve your innate abilities! You could improve your Unarmed damage, run faster, fight invisible creatures, and even heal yourself! Any of this sound familiar?
Also notable are the Prestige classes that allowed you to bond with your weapons and armour, letting you use your essentia to increase their effectiveness and grant new abilities.
Then we have the aforementioned Soulmelds; In other words, the ability to form weapons and armour out of soul energy.
The only part of incarnum which isn't already included in Ki is the generic energy field, and this is the part of incarnum which is most disposable. Seriously, it didn't even matter in 3.5. Refluffing soulmelds so that they're made from essentia takes half a second, and doesn't actually change anything in game. Hell, some things make MORE sense that way.
Long story short, Ki with incarnum will be indistinguishable from Ki without incarnum.
Predictions
Ki classes will not care what weapon they use. A chair is as effective in thier hands as a Mordenkrad. Lots of thunder damage.
Classes:
Monk - Uses Ki to enhance his own body. Build options will consist of a choice between Internal and External fighting styles. Will be able to use all proficent weapons as implements, in addition to the Ki default implement.
Avatar - Defender who develops a mystical bond with his weapon. Can use his soul-bound weapon as an implement, nothing else.
Incarnate - Striker who uses Ki to form weapons and armour. Ranged. See here (Start at 3:45) and here (2:10 till 2:44)
Would your vision of the avatar resemble a Jedi at all? curious
Personally, I liked the Incarnum book. Unfortunately, I didn't get to use it before the group stopped playing 3E.
Why no Samurai?
Because there's too much fiction about them. Samurai are attributed with 1001 different abilities, with few commonalities. One might empower his blade with the souls of defeated enemies, whilst another is fight with two swords and shouts a lot. The only thing they have in common, and thus the core of the class, is that they're all Japanese Swordsmen. Which are fighters.
I would contend that monks are no different in the 1001 interpretations department. Some are distinctly martial while others are distinctly mystical, though most fall somewhere in between. Sure Samurai covers a wide set of roles, armored or unarmored, one weapon or two, mystical or mundane, even their weapon of choice can vary from fiction to fiction (though it's most often a sword), but nothing stops a single class from touching on most of these.
The ranger is a great example. Is the ranger a deadly sniper, a whirling dervish, or a bonded animal tamer? The answer is any or even all of the above, depending on how one builds it. The only thing all of these have in common is an affinity for the wilderness, but even so, it is entirely possible to play-down that particular element.
Stop thinking of samurai as a Japanese swordsman and try think of it as a devoted swordsman.
What about Incarnum?
Ok, I have to assume that the people who are objecting to Incarnum's inclusion have never actually Read the book. Let me break it down:
The first thing you have to realise is that Incarnum contains TWO power sources. First of all there's "Generic Energy Field 37" which deals with soulmelds, but I'll come back to that in a second.
The second is Essentia.
Actually I read the 3.5 book, it's one of my favorites, and I am among those that does not want to see inarnum folded into ki, or at least not fully. You make some fairly reasonable points and I suppose that ki and esentia have enough overlap, but the I'd rather see the rest of the incarnum fluff remain distinct. I certainly don't want to see anything resembling soulmelds cluttering up the ki power source and I certainly want "soulknives" to remain psionic and would gladly see them renamed "psi-blades" to avoid future confusion.
Truth is, Tolkien used to have more to do with D&D than those authors did.
No, Gygax always held them in higher regard than Tolkien.
Would your vision of the avatar resemble a Jedi at all? curious
No, not really.
Instead it would cover the "My skill with my weapon is supernatural", "My weapon is legendary" and the "Only I can wield my weapon" tropes. Examples include Ivy from Soul Caliber with chain-sword, Cloud Stife with buster sword, King Arthur with Excaliber and Dak'kon with Zerth blade.
Imho, Jedi are pretty good examples of Psi characters. As far as I remember, 98% of thier abilities fall under Telekenesis, Clairvoyance and Telepathy.
@ Tharag Bocc: I agree that Soulknives should remain psionic but I think there's room for the incarnate without them stepping on each other's toes.
When a soulknife manifests his blade, it generally takes the form of an actual weapon. Sure, it may be made from a force field, or summoned up from the wielders dreams as a reflection of his inner self, but it's still a weapon and the wielder uses it as such.
Worth noting that I think Soulknife should be a feat available to all Psionic characters.
When an Incarnate shapes a weapon, he creates something abstract, like a pair of wings made of knives (Hurray for YouTube!). Even if he creates something that looks like a mundane weapon it's effect has little to do with it's form, and he could use it to create blantantly supernatural effects (Flight ect.)
I don't think I've stated this very well, but I'm tired, so what the hell :D
....Cloud Stife with buster sword, ....
The buster sword is just a slab of metal that Cloud stole when his best friend kicked the bucket. It is hardly legendary. It certainly can be wielded by other people, and on top of all of that it is his weakest weapon. He hardly qualifies in any of the categories you listed. :P
As we have all seen, each power source tends to "lean toward" a role, whatever the primary role of the character is. Whereas Martial leans toward high-damage striker, I see Ki as leaning toward high mobility striker.
Monk, as primary Ki striker, will likely use Flurry of Blows as it's extra Damage mechanic.
Soulblade could be an implement-based melee defender or striker, lifted straight from the Psi handbook.
Sohei, I have never seen, but from descriptions on these boards, it could work as either Defender or Leader.
Avatar would be either a leader or controller, manifesting their soul to directly affect the battlefield.
I have no problem with seeing Asian classes, but I hate the asumption that if a class is asian it HAS to be Ki. Thats a terrible idea that I can't buy into. I would like to see things like a samurai paragon path for fighters, but making a samurai ki class is not really neccessary. I honestly think Ki will NOT be the catch-all for the asian classes, I think it will be more diverse than that easily.
That's right, and I'm living proof. I'm a part-Irish Newfie that can manipulate my own Ki. Why shouldn't the next guy over be able to?
Why no Samurai?
Because there's too much fiction about them. Samurai are attributed with 1001 different abilities, with few commonalities. One might empower his blade with the souls of defeated enemies, whilst another is fight with two swords and shouts a lot. The only thing they have in common, and thus the core of the class, is that they're all Japanese Swordsmen. Which are fighters.
I find it amusing that you list two idea for the Samurai that don't fit into the Fighter class, and then say that Samurai is just a Fighter. Why not have a Samurai who embodies at least one of those different concepts? If you agree that samurai throughout fiction have been given various abilities that are distinct and different from the ability set given to D&D Fighters, why can't you create a class that embodies at least some fraction of those abilities?
What about Incarnum?
Ok, I have to assume that the people who are objecting to Incarnum's inclusion have never actually Read the book. Let me break it down:
The first thing you have to realise is that Incarnum contains TWO power sources. First of all there's "Generic Energy Field 37" which deals with soulmelds, but I'll come back to that in a second.
The second is Essentia.
What is essentia? Why, It's your character's own internal life-force! And if you trained with it (AkA Feats), you could improve your innate abilities! You could improve your Unarmed damage, run faster, fight invisible creatures, and even heal yourself! Any of this sound familiar?
Also notable are the Prestige classes that allowed you to bond with your weapons and armour, letting you use your essentia to increase their effectiveness and grant new abilities.
Then we have the aforementioned Soulmelds; In other words, the ability to form weapons and armour out of soul energy.
The only part of incarnum which isn't already included in Ki is the generic energy field, and this is the part of incarnum which is most disposable. Seriously, it didn't even matter in 3.5. Refluffing soulmelds so that they're made from essentia takes half a second, and doesn't actually change anything in game. Hell, some things make MORE sense that way.
Long story short, Ki with incarnum will be indistinguishable from Ki without incarnum.
I am another person who has both read the book and disagreed that Incarnum works with Ki. Yes, some ideas related to essentia might work well as part of Ki (the name can go, though), but you seem to be mistaken about what is the problem everyone is having. I don't complain about incarnum because it involves "Generic Energy Field 37", I complain about it because I don't like most of the classes and the entire concept and execution of the soulmeld idea.
I mean... Uryu from the Bleach anime is a great example of a Ki character in my opinion. However, he gets his powers from his ability to absorb the "reishi" (spirit things) from the area around him into himself in order to launch his spiritual arrows. This has more resemblance to the energy of Incarnum than the energy of Essentia, but I am fine with it being in Ki whereas I am not fine with the Incarnum classes being in Ki. What Uryu does is distinct from Soulmelds for a number of reasons, and that difference is what I consider to be important. I know that what I just said is a bit vague, but I would have to drag out my copy of the book to be more specific, but that is impossible at the moment so I can't. Sorry.
Predictions
Ki classes will not care what weapon they use. A chair is as effective in thier hands as a Mordenkrad. Lots of thunder damage.
Classes:
Monk - Uses Ki to enhance his own body. Build options will consist of a choice between Internal and External fighting styles. Will be able to use all proficent weapons as implements, in addition to the Ki default implement.
Avatar - Defender who develops a mystical bond with his weapon. Can use his soul-bound weapon as an implement, nothing else.
Incarnate - Striker who uses Ki to form weapons and armour. Ranged. See here (Start at 3:45) and here (2:10 till 2:44)
I don't really agree with much of this at all.
New Keyword: Surge
You can spend a healing surge when you activate powers with the Surge keyword. If you do, you gain the powers listed Surge Benefit.
The buster sword is just a slab of metal that Cloud stole when his best friend kicked the bucket. It is hardly legendary. It certainly can be wielded by other people, and on top of all of that it is his weakest weapon. He hardly qualifies in any of the categories you listed. :P
Okay, my ignorance is showing
I included him because he not only uses a huge hunk of metal bigger than his torso as a weapon, but uses it well, and without major spinal injury to boot! Not everyone can do this.
Perhaps I should have used Ken instead.
Why not have a Samurai who embodies at least one of those different concepts? If you agree that samurai throughout fiction have been given various abilities that are distinct and different from the ability set given to D&D Fighters, why can't you create a class that embodies at least some fraction of those abilities?
But which abilities? Which power set should become the core of the 4e samurai? Regardless what you choose, the vast majority of Samurai fans are going to be severely disappointed. If they choose to use another name, they save themselves and the fans a lot of unnecessary aggrivation.
you seem to be mistaken about what is the problem everyone is having. I don't complain about incarnum because it involves "Generic Energy Field 37", I complain about it because I don't like most of the classes and the entire concept and execution of the soulmeld idea.
Sooo, game mechanics then? I'd agree that they could have been done better, but that doesn't matter as they're incompatible with 4e anyway. The closest we'd get is a spellbook mechanic for incarnate at-wills.
I admit I know nothing about the Bleach series. Research ahoy! :D
I still think Ki classes will have a gimmick where they can spend Healing Surges to fuel special effects. It will represent going beyond the limits of your body :D
No! No no no no NO!
The whole point of healing surges is to prevent players from expending all thier resources in a single fight. This mechanic would herald the return of the 5 minute workday!
No! No no no no NO!
The whole point of healing surges is to prevent players from expending all thier resources in a single fight. This mechanic would herald the return of the 5 minute workday!
So by this we can then extrapolate that, should Ki classes have such an ability, they are union members? :D
No! No no no no NO!
The whole point of healing surges is to prevent players from expending all thier resources in a single fight. This mechanic would herald the return of the 5 minute workday!
That depends upon how such a mechanic is balanced.
If the "Surge" benefits were tied to a characters Second Wind (and were balanced against the benefits of such), all it would provide is additional options for an existing resource.
If we also tie Surge benefits to CON modifier, the "Surge" benefit of any given power will be directly proportionate to what the same character could achieve via Second Wind (SW being X+1/4 CON score).
If we also assume that X class has 12 + CON score Hit Points (+6/level), a 3rd level char of that class will have 24+CON HP (and heals 6 + 1/4 CON HP on a Surge).
Based on those numbers, the "Surge" benefit of a 3rd level power should be the equivalent of 7+CON modifier damage (not accounting for the Defense bonus granted by Second Wind).
CON 12: 36 HP, +9 on a Healing Surge, +8 Surge Benefit
CON 14: 38 HP, +9.5 on a Healing Surge, +9 Surge Benefit
CON 16: 40 HP, +10 on a Healing Surge. +10 Surge Benefit
CON 18: 42 HP, +10.5 on a Healing Surge, +11 Surge Benefit
A sample 3rd level power using the above mechanics:
Wind Strike [Ki Attack 3]
Encounter * Impliment, Surge
Standard * Close Blast 3
Target: One creature in blast.
Surge: If you use your Second Wind, this attack targets all creatures in blast.
Attack: Strength vs. Reflex.
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage and you push the target 1 square.
Surge: Increase damage to 1[W] + Strength modifier + Constitution modifier damage, and the target is also knocked prone.
Miss: Constitution modifier damage, and the target is pushed 1 square [Surge only].
New Keyword: Surge
When you activate a power with the Surge keyword, you can use your Second Wind as part of the powers activation. Instead of gaining the normal benefits from using your Second Wind, you gain the power's Surge benefit instead. You must still spend a healing surge when using your Second Wind in this manner. You must decide whether to use the Surge benefit before making the attack roll.
If we alter the "Surge" Keyword (and powers) in the above manner, the only benefit is that the player gains additional (offensive/utility) options for their Second Wind.
Hardly what I call unbalanced by any stretch.
I would also give Ki Classes the following Channel Ki feature:
Channel Ki: Extreme Effort [Ki Feature]
Encounter * Immediate Reaction, Healing, Personal
Trigger: You use a Power with the Surge Keyword.
Benefit: Your Second Wind recharges.
I'd also like to see some powers you can only use while bloodied or give additionnal benefits when you are bloodied.
I just got the third volume of Saint Seiya The Lost Canvas and in it you got Piscies Albafica, who having trained amongst the poisonous roses he uses as attacks developped a poisonous blood, who got a special attack where he uses his own poisonous blood to strike his foe! That's pretty spiffy.
I have no problem with powers (esp. Immediate Reaction powers) which can only be activated when bloodied - the precedent for such has already been set by a variety of attack/healing powers whose benefits only work when bloodied.
You mean sort of like how Inuyasha can use his "Blades of Blood" power when he himself is first bloodied lol.
I guess.
But the Crimsom Thorn look cooler than anything from Inu Yasha. It looks like a Macross Missile Massacre but with blood :p its used to deliver poison directly to the opponent's body instead of using the deadly perfume of the Royal Demon Roses.
But which abilities? Which power set should become the core of the 4e samurai? Regardless what you choose, the vast majority of Samurai fans are going to be severely disappointed. If they choose to use another name, they save themselves and the fans a lot of unnecessary aggrivation.
Allow me to reiterate...
[INDENT]Sure Samurai covers a wide set of roles, armored or unarmored, one weapon or two, mystical or mundane, even their weapon of choice can vary from fiction to fiction (though it's most often a sword), but nothing stops a single class from touching on most of these.
The ranger is a great example. Is the ranger a deadly sniper, a whirling dervish, or a bonded animal tamer? The answer is any or even all of the above, depending on how one builds it. The only thing all of these have in common is an affinity for the wilderness, but even so, it is entirely possible to play-down that particular element.[/INDENT]
Class are capable of representing a far more diverse set on concepts than I think you give them credit for.
I also think you give the average player far too little credit. Sure there will always be the types that roar and complain about the smallest detail not fitting their vision of how something should be, but the vast majority of fantasy fans are, in my experience, so accustomed to a wide variety of fictional interpretations that they will be able to shrug off any initial dissatisfaction and except any potential Samurai class as merely representative what the term means as a specific D&D concept.
I'd see at least one samurai built focus on iaijutsu/battoujutsu with the Quick Draw feat as bonus feat and some powers that relate to initiative order. Probably a more striker build.
I'd also see one where feints are important with Bluff as a class skill and a class feature to use bluff to get combat advantage more often and more easily (minor action maybe?).
Maybe also a naginata/polearm build and a handful of archery powers thrown in for variety (with an Kyodo master paragon path!). I'd also imagine a Samurai class would give you bonuses for using a versatile weapon... altough that last bit could be used in a Fighter weapon talent alternative feature instead.
Is that asking to much?
I'd prefer invocations or possibly manifestations
As we have Evocations for primal powers, and an Invoker class, I don't see Invocations being used for powers, and if Manifestations is used, it will most likely be for Psionic powers.
I can't imagine a Ki controller using stunts,
Well in the old Dragonfist RPG (A 2nd Ed D&D variant), which was Wuxia based, as is the Ki power source, characters pulled off Stunts, that is why I'm suggesting it
And who's to say there will even be a Ki Controller?
I've noticed how many of the powers mentioned from todays pop culture television shows and books halfway resemble martial arts and halfway resemble fictional Ki powers associated with the mythologies of the different cultures of Asia.
Personally, I can't stand alot of the Wuxia style of play, I much prefer the whole 7 Samurai and Yojimbo Genre. But I also realize alot of the newer D&D players like the Wuxia instead. I think if they brought back the martial arts they could satisfy the wants of both those who want Ki powers and those who don't. Why? because not all martial arts are based out of Asia...This would give them the ability to create cool new powers and not necessarily have to give them an asian flavor. Also imho what they are now calling "martial", while certainly warrior/fighter based, does not convey to me the idea that these fighters/warriors learned anything at all from any kind of school other than a generic one placed somewhere in their generic world setting. If they brought back martial arts then I personally believe it would allow people to build Samurai fighters and Sohei warrior monks and Bushi fighters, and even give more flavor to the Kensai ( which in my humble opinion is not done very well at all in this edition of the game ) and either make them martial art based or Ki based.
For aesthetic purposes it would also make them look as if they went to a different school for learning how to fight then your standard players handbook and martial power martial classes.
I think 'Techniques' would be a cooler word for 'em.
Well in that case I'd prefer Destroyers!
Or maybe we could rename the type of powers instead and call Ki Powers Moves.
At-Will powers become Special Moves
Encounter powers becomes Super Moves
Daily powers become Ultra Moves.
Which would fit the "Ki = Martial arts" rut that some people are still stuck in.
Sounds perfect IMo, even for those Ki powers which have nothing to do with martial arts, as you could easily justify specific breathing/meditation techniques, ritualistic gestures, and incantations as being a type of "Kata".
This is especially true once you consider the fact that at its most basic definition a Kata is nothing more than a formula/recipe, and therefore has much in common with rituals.
Yes, I realise that its narrow definition applies exclusively to a formula of martial arts maneuvers, but who says that you have to use the most restrictive definition of the word?
Would fit the idea of drawing up Spirit power and punching/shooting with it.
I am a part-time karate instructor, and I dont know any kata that could be performed as a standard action. lol I like "techniques" better.
Yeah, I remember when I took Tang Soo Do back in the day, some of those Katas could be very long (they're more like dance routines).
I still think Stunts could be good (the whole Wuxia/Dragonfist action).
Yeah, I remember when I took Tang Soo Do back in the day, some of those Katas could be very long (they're more like dance routines).
Yeah. The shortest kata in the main system is study has 15 or more blocks, depending on the school. Traditional "one point sparring" is more like what we want for 4E powers and as far as i know this sort of training isnt refered to as a "kata".
I still think Stunts could be good (the whole Wuxia/Dragonfist action).
I think Stunts sounds too martial to me. When i hear "stunts" i think of mundane (in the DnD sense) stuntmen or extreme athletes. It would also sound kind of funny to have a healing hands move, ala Mr. Miyagi, or a focusing trance decribed as a "stunt". It almost makes it sound fake to me. (What kind of stunt are you trying to pull!? ;) )
I like "techiniques", not only because that is usally how we describe maneuvers in the school i study, but because it sounds generic enough to apply to things that aren't over-the-top attack powers.
@ Tharag Bocc: Perhaps I am being a bit narrow-minded. Ah well, I concede the point :D
Rampant Speculation:- Fighting Styles as Implements, learnt via enchanted scrolls.
Wizard gets a Wand of Shield +2, Fighter gets a Flaming sword +2, and the monk learns Tiger Claw +2.
Monks, Ninjas, and whatever else Wizards is going to shove in are going to kill 4th edition. Their inclusion is strictly in the face of the the games internal logic. For instance those two classes are traditionally a martial class with extreme training, everyone understands this, but now they are chi powered. By chi powered I mean magic, there is no way to explain it. They are not disciplined they are powered much like a cleric or a sorcerer, only not because Lawl they are eastern! They have nothing to offer this game and will at worse make a mess of what people want from this game. General heroic tales of western origin that at least make some sense in the context they are given, and this including has nothing to do with that, it is just catering to some weird fascination with japan and asian martial arts only they aren't even martial artists any more, they are magical powered because they are from japan!
I think that monks will work out fine. They have a distinctive style different from any of the existent classes. However, I am dubious with regards something like the ninja. It would seem to be a rogue. In fact, there is already a rogue paragon path called shadow assassin (note that the word ninja means 'shadow warrior'). I hope that ninjas are left to be rogues and that the power source 'ki' does not focus on classes derived from Asian history, folklore, and mythology. Samurai, Bushi, Ninja, and Yakuza are Japanese Warlords, Fighters and Rogues.
Of course, if they do come up with a Ninja that is a ki striker with a unique flavor, I would be happy, but the rogue powers are already *very* ninja-esque.
This might come as a surprise to some, but people who want monks in D&D are not dieing to play a character with darker skin, almond shaped eyes, and a funny accent. What they really want are new mechanics associated with a new class. People who want to play a martial character who can sneak around plunging daggers in the backs of enemies will play rogues. If the same players, however want to play a kick butt warrior who channels his inner energy into his attacks to do great amounts of damage and status effects with his bare fists, then they have to wait until that class is made.
This is fantasy. I see no reason why one player should be allowed to summon a large floating disk or fly up a wall while another player isn't allowed to use inner energy to help him run up a wall. I have always felt that the argument that D&D is Eurocentric and that ninja who run up walls were first imagined in Japan is a weak argument. Again, I don't want to play a ninja so that I can make my dragonborn look Japanese; I want to play a ninja so I can do cool things that the rules don't yet allow. Who cares where these ideas first came from. Jean val Jean could scale walls in Les Miserables, does that mean his character is Japanese and shouldn't be in a European fantasy? Let players get their new mechanics and accept that D&D is a world where awesome stuff happens regardless of where the ideas for those awesome things originated.
You know, I felt like posting something, but really I think you did an awesome job at respond to the person's problem against the Ki classes. Thank you! And one thing that kairiroses said, "Ki is about channeling the inner energy to do great things, not the power to be Asian." Okay, not the exact quote but it's the part about "not the power to be Asian." that I really love, because it's true. I mean hell, in a 3.5 game I played a ninja who was black. Not blackinese, but black. Ki power is all about a person's chi and channeling that energy to accomplish great things.
Sure, movies and books embellish it but at it's core it really is harnessing the power of one's chi and the flowing energies of your body. There's nothing wrong with that.
Monks, Ninjas, and whatever else Wizards is going to shove in are going to kill 4th edition. Their inclusion is strictly in the face of the the games internal logic. For instance those two classes are traditionally a martial class with extreme training, everyone understands this, but now they are chi powered. By chi powered I mean magic, there is no way to explain it. They are not disciplined they are powered much like a cleric or a sorcerer, only not because Lawl they are eastern! They have nothing to offer this game and will at worse make a mess of what people want from this game. General heroic tales of western origin that at least make some sense in the context they are given, and this including has nothing to do with that, it is just catering to some weird fascination with japan and asian martial arts only they aren't even martial artists any more, they are magical powered because they are from japan!
Wow, let me just say...wow are you nuts? Okay, that was mean. But seriously what's the deal? You feel that clerics and druids, and wizards are perfectly reasonable but monks and ninjas aren't? Seriously? So a cleric who is blessed by a god to blast enemies with divine energy or use magical divine powers to heal the sick is okay? A druid who embraces the enchantments of the wild, the power of the primal spirit to cast weather and elemental like spells and change their shape into that of an animal, or amorphous mammal like primal spirit? Then there's the wizard, who studies spells and learns to cast then, chanting them to cause powerful actions to occur like shooting fireballs, causing whole areas to be engulfed in an icy storm? Oh and don't forget the warlock, shouldn't forget the warlock. Makes a pact with fae, gods, demons, etc for power to cast damaging arcane attacks.
And yet that's all okay? But a person who channels their inner energy and focuses it through training to enhance their own physical performance. And you're saying that's just lame asian magic that doesn't belong? With dragons, magic, divine gods, etc? Wow. Okay, so you believe ki is just "asian magic" and doesn't have any place among the rest of D&D because "it's asian"? One, dude chill ki power and focusing chi is not exclusive to asian countries. Two, it has every right as another form of fantasy and power to play with.
Alright, while I still think calling a martial artist a monk is ridiculous, that's not going to change so anyway, monk. A martial artist who enhances his physical atks with ki power. You get a physical attacker who's abilities will probably go the route of paralyzing, stunning, and basic physical ailments that are an extension of channeling his ki to attack points on a person's body. Now, speculating because it's not confirmed, but ninja. Truly a real ninja is very much like a rogue except for a few tweaks. But fantasy ninjas here, they would channel ki a way like 3.5 where they can help hide and enhance their stealth capabilities to better atk and do extra damage. I admit with how 4.0 I'm curious to see how they make ninja different enough from rogue but that's for another day.
Then samurai, another speculation but still likely. Using Ki similar to the monk but there's goes by the extension of their incredible sword training mixed with some martial feats like enhanced charges and other such things. Really, Ki is just as viable as any other power we have so far in the game.
As a side note, I'm currently speculating that KI Powers will be called: Stunts.
I believe "techniques" are more liekly, perhaps even "Katas" if they go with a wholly martial arts bent. As long as i don't have to yell the power name to use it, I'll at least gove the book a once over.
I believe "techniques" are more liekly, perhaps even "Katas" if they go with a wholly martial arts bent. As long as i don't have to yell the power name to use it, I'll at least gove the book a once over.
But...but...but I WANT to call my attacks!
But...but...but I WANT to call my attacks!
You still can. That's what anime-themed games are for. Fan-service as far as the eye can see.
:D
You still can. That's what anime-themed games are for. Fan-service as far as the eye can see.
:D
Don't mind if I do :p
My human cleric used to call "LANCE OF FAITH!" (usually followed by)" IN YOUR FACE!" :p
I didn't call the others as much...well maybe Beacon of Hope, because its the Bacon of Hope after all :p
Don't mind if I do :p
My human cleric used to call "LANCE OF FAITH!" (usually followed by)" IN YOUR FACE!" :p
I didn't call the others as much...well maybe Beacon of Hope, because its the Bacon of Hope after all :p
You know, the lance of faith thing is pretty funny, I think if I ever play a cleric I'd have to do that now because of you! I always found lance of faith funny, I have a friend who played a cleric and every time he used the Lance I couldn't help thinking, you know the cleric is a pompous class. They have an atk called "lance of faith" basically put your firing your faith forcefully into an opponent, forcing your faith onto them. Made me laugh because I thought of that every time, it was just like, "Oh damn there's the cleric forcing his faith upon his opponents in anger..."hahaha.
Don't mind if I do :p
My human cleric used to call "LANCE OF FAITH!" (usually followed by)" IN YOUR FACE!" :p
Wow, thats much less vulgar than what everyone calls out at my table. lol Its usually more like "LANCE OF FAITH, UP YOUR....."
I have no problem with seeing Asian classes, but I hate the asumption that if a class is asian it HAS to be Ki. Thats a terrible idea that I can't buy into. I would like to see things like a samurai paragon path for fighters, but making a samurai ki class is not really neccessary. I honestly think Ki will NOT be the catch-all for the asian classes, I think it will be more diverse than that easily.
Now, I don't understand that culture deeply, but there is the Kensai paragon path. Isn't that supposed to be Samurai-ish?
The 4E Kensai PP is just a single weapon master, he's obviously oriental in influence, but not specifically samurai esque.
but now they are chi powered. By chi powered I mean magic, there is no way to explain it.
Hmm? Just like the Barbarians and the Druids using the same power source makes Barbarians somehow magic?
Monks have always been ki powered. Have you actually studied any martial arts? The Ki/Qi/Chi is at the core of martial arts. In 3.5, their powers were called Ki Strike for a reason.
I can't see Ki 'spellcasters' (Just like we don't see martial 'spellcasters') but we'll see. Maybe a twist on the Shugenja?
Having a separate power source for monks and similar classes allows for great flavour differences and feat choices compared to Fighters and Rangers, which I feel is important.
I would not place Shugenjas as Ki simply because they are Asian; they clearly have more of an Elemental influence.
That is, they are the archetypal religious holy man of the wilderness. That's what an ascetic is, whether or not s/he wears heavy armour.
That's a fundamental difference between Mahayana and Theravada. And if you're more focused on the Sri Lankan / SE Asian Ascetics, then yes, they don't have anything, because it could become an attachment. But in Mahayana, you can have as much of anything as anything, as long as you're not attached to having it, and would give it up without a qualm.
Just because an Invoker has the ability to use heavy armour doesn't mean s/he needs to wear it.
I'm pretty sure that's in there for you to play the other build, which tends to be the SPANISH INQUISITION.
The spanish inquisition wore heavy armor?!
No, but they did use the comfy chair to "question" people.