Anyway, the Asassin class has been confirmed for DDI, and is confirmed to be of a new powersource. Everything else, role, themes and so forth has yet to be revealed, except for in a short blurb about "true assasins", though that could be referencing a different class all together. So let's get speculating shall we?
I'm of the opinion that the Asassin is going to be a Shadow Striker. Possible stats it could key off are a Dexterity primary with Intelligence and Charisma as secondaries, or Charisma primary with Int and Dex as secondaries (though this would really emphasize the supernatural Shadow part of them more than the traditional "knife in the dark" view). As for it's extra damage ability, I'm guessing either a secondary attack against fortitude whenever it lands an attack for fairly high damage (reminiscent of "Killing Blow"), or damage that only works when the Asassin is concealed, possibley with the ability to shroud themselves in concealment as a minor action.
So anyone else want to share their thoughts/theories?
Sorry if there's a similar topic somewhere, but I didn't really see one.
Anyway, the Asassin class has been confirmed for DDI, and is confirmed to be of a new powersource. Everything else, role, themes and so forth has yet to be revealed, except for in a short blurb about "true assasins", though that could be referencing a different class all together. So let's get speculating shall we?
I'm of the opinion that the Asassin is going to be a Shadow Striker. Possible stats it could key off are a Dexterity primary with Intelligence and Charisma as secondaries, or Charisma primary with Int and Dex as secondaries (though this would really emphasize the supernatural Shadow part of them more than the traditional "knife in the dark" view). As for it's extra damage ability, I'm guessing either a secondary attack against fortitude whenever it lands an attack for fairly high damage (reminiscent of "Killing Blow"), or damage that only works when the Asassin is concealed, possibley with the ability to shroud themselves in concealment as a minor action.
So anyone else want to share their thoughts/theories?
I think you're right about "Shadow Striker", but then, that seems like an easy guess. As for ability scores, I have no opinion at the moment, but your guesses seem reasonable.
(PS: Consider this a neighbourly *bump*. Please bake me cookies.
)The archetype of the supernatural assassin is one that is graceful and subtle, so Dexterity is most likely the primary statistic. Intelligence or Wisdom cover the training in the dark arts, but if we're looking at legacy value, Intelligence is likely one of the secondary stats. Another thing that many supernatural assassins in fiction have in common is a certain level of swagger and charm (Atremis from FR, Jaraxle, the Ninja from Naruto), this speaks to Charisma as a possible second statistic. This would mean that of the races published so far:
Gnomes
Tieflings
Halflings
Goblins
Drow
Eladrin
Doppelgangers/Changelings
Humans
Elves
Razorclaw Shifters
Would make good assassins. (This is based on whether the race has a bonus to either dexterity or Intelligence or Charisma. Humans are included because they're good at everything). All of these races seem relatively thematically appropriate for assassins-which seems like a consideration that designers have made with most classes and races (like making sure that Elves make great bow rangers and that tieflings make good warlocks).
Extra damage based on concealment is possible, but it seems too straightforward of a mechanic. I can't honestly think of anything else that would fit though.
:D That is an excellent point, all of those races seem very thematically appropriate to being assasins. I agree that damage that keys off of concealment may be a little simplistic... but a lot of extra damage mechanics are. You can't get much more stright forward than Hunters Quarry... on the other hand it could be possible to have something a little different like the Avengere's Oath of Emnity, but the problem with trying to predict something different is.. well it's different, so there's not much to go off of :P .
I just had a thought. Do you think Revenants, whatever stats they end up having, will be made to fit well with the Asassin? It seems appropriate, and they're both exclusive for DDI and coming up fairly close together..
My personal opinion on the revenant is that it will be a series of feats that any character can take that represent coming back from the dead. That would solve the "why are revenants all the same size" and "why do only medium races become revenants" questions that would naturally pop up if it were treated as a race. That being said, I think intense focus and unearthly durability (two general traits of revenants in fiction) would likely be helpful, but not essential to an Assassin's line of work.
I actually have to disagree with this, if only because WotC have more or less said that Revenants will be their own race. As for the "why are all Revenants the same if any race can be raised as them issue", that actually has a very simple fix. Rather than being an undead race, they could be a race that are undead.
As an example, let's say there was a race that unleashed some evil demon by mistake, and they vowed to not even let death stop them in their holy quest. Centuries pass, and the race has degenerated into undead. Despite this, their holy mission has preserved their minds and souls so they're still as sane and good as any other race.
That's probably not how Revenants will work, but it gives you an idea of how you could have an undead race without raising that sort of question: though any race can become undead in theory, only this one is playable due to the nature of thier undeath
Oh and back on topic, anyone have any idea of what some basic Asassin builds may be like? I'm thinking a "stabby" build and a "spelly" build myself :D
My personal opinion on the revenant is that it will be a series of feats that any character can take that represent coming back from the dead. That would solve the "why are revenants all the same size" and "why do only medium races become revenants" questions that would naturally pop up if it were treated as a race. That being said, I think intense focus and unearthly durability (two general traits of revenants in fiction) would likely be helpful, but not essential to an Assassin's line of work.
Revenants are a race of undead; their race in life doesn't affect their abilities, because they're just corpses. (A corpse is a corpse, in this case.)
Or so I imagine it will be. At any rate, yes, it will be an actual race according to the news.
I have to agree with the rest of you that the assassin will likly be Dex/Int and Dex/Cha. As for striker damage, must say that i can't really guess, marking/damage mechanics seem to be near impossible to guess correctly. I don't think anyone expected the sorceror to add their seconday stat to damage, or for the avenger to get his double-rolls and censure thing.
The Revenants are likely to be like the Forsaken from WoW (just as a reference) or the Necropolitans people keep mentioning from 3.5. A specific race of undead, not just 'any race thats back as a corpse'. Its the same way that tieflings only come in their 'partialy human' form.
I don't see why a corpse would have +dex though, and +charisma is iffy,though willing yourself back to life does show force of personality. I wouldn't be surprised if Revevant had atleast bonuses to the Assassin's secondary stats.
In before ThaX rants about how he opposes assassins despite the fact he doesn't get DDI anyway.
Too late. *points to DDi forums*
Anyways, I agree with the Assassins = some combo of Dex/Int/Cha, if only because all the stereotypical Assassin races have at least one of those stats: Drow (el numero uno), Tiefling, Doppleganger/Changeling, Half-Orc, Githyanki, Gnome (yes, Gnome!)
I think dexterity certainly makes sense as a primary stat. Int is a good secondary stat for an assassin that uses learned knowledge of creatures' weak points to increase the damage they deal (although from a metagame perspective it has the problem of only increasing one NACD). I think wisdom would also be a good secondary stat; this type of assassin would use instinct to guess what sort of actions their foe is going to take and counter accordingly (think of good insight and perception checks, but built into the class and put to use for combat applications).
He could do stuff like:
- Blinding opponents in shadows.
- Grasping and holding opponents with shadows made solid.
- Phasing them through walls/floors or stuck between them.
- Using his shapeshifting to get passed guards and minor-targets to reach his major target. Perhaps even causing shifting on enemies so they attack one another?
- He could even assist the rest of the party to reach a group target. Phasing everyone through a wall, hiding everyone in shadows or shapeshifting everyone.
Once he gets close to his target then more direct things happen. Such as shadows that are blades, normal melee stuff, perhaps shifting by creating shadows to move through, etc.
Essentially instead of relying on teamwork, terrain, etc. to get to his target he creates his own opportunities. But since his focus is split probably not as good at direct damage dealing (besides for perhaps special dailies or abilities to represent the sniper in a clocktower feel).
Cha assassin = James Bond. And yes, he is an assassin, even though he's more known for spying.
He is literally, in English, an assassin, but that doesn't mean he fits the Assassin class any more than Strider fits the 4E Ranger class. If we really want to go down the path of trying to make existing fictional characters fit into the 4E class system, he is probably better represented as an artful dodger rogue (look at his penchants for snappy one-liners and seducing female henchmen and compare them to the presentation of the Hooded Man in the Dragon Art of the Kill article; they are very different archetypes).
Again, I'm not saying I can't see wotc going down this road with the assassin, but I see it as problematic establishing different concept spaces for AD rogues and cha assassins if they exist.
But, I suspect shadow magic is not something Charisma-y, aside from the Dark Warlock stuff. Int makes sense, and I might even say Wisdom if you go off of the old Shadow Hand Swordsage stuff from Tome of Battle.
In a vacuum, I don't see cha as making very much sense as an assassin stat. Unlike rogues, I would guess that assassins are thematically NOT going to be forces of personality or willpower. Most cha based classes (e.g. bards, sorcerers, AD rogues) tend to be very 'showy' based on fluff. Of course, I think wotc might end up still doing dex and cha, because they like to make stats synch up with stereotypical races, but I actually kind of hope they don't.
I actually thing Assassins have a (small) shot at having a Cha primary, if only because of their shadow magic tendancies. The way I figure it, divine magic is Wisdom based, book magic is Intelligence based, and magic conjured up through sheer will or natural talent is Charisma based. I think Assassins fit the second definition best from what we know of them... though strictly speaking they're not full-fledged spellcasters so you could be right. Except for the whole thematic races thing, that does seem to be pointing to Charisma
+2 Constitution (for undead toughness),+2 Intelligence (knowledge of possibly an entire lifetime)
So they'd make great:
Infernal Warlocks
Star Pact Warlocks
Vestige Pact Warlocks
Staff Wizards
Retribution Avengers
Swordmages
So I'd imagine that if they come up with the same stats I predict them to have, that they'll make decent (but not spectacular) int-secondary assassins.
Cha assassin = James Bond. And yes, he is an assassin, even though he's more known for spying.
I'm sorry if this derails the conversation, but James Bond is a spy as an official title. Really he is not a great example to base any D&D class off, since he excels at anything he does. If he is an assassin, then he is also a crack shot soldier, nascar driver with stunt training, master thief, and a prostitute (even if the person your sleeping with doesn't pay you, if someone else does you're still a hooker). These skills can be attributed to almost all the martial classes, but he rarely sneaks in, kills a target and sneaks out without anyone knowing he was there.
I also agree that Assassins do not deserve there own class, any more than gladiators, Samurai, or Bounty Hunters do. The Rogue class represents a particular set of skills, abilities, and powers in a broad generalized sense. Assassins encompass many of the same traits and imo simply is a focus on those traits like a paragon path. I have a hard time envisioning an assassin that will be any different than any other striker already in existense. I hope I am wrong, perhaps they will find a mechanic and corresponding fluff that will make this class uniquely different and worth detracting from the rogue.
Key Abilities: Dexterity, Wisdom, Constitution
Dexterity measures hand-eye coordination, agility, reflexes, and balance.
Wisdom measures your common sense, perception, self-discipline, and empathy.
Constitution represents your character's health, stamina, and vital force.
I'd like to see assassins gaining power through drugs. like the original hashashin or Elric, rather than the shadow source
:|
As for speculation on its potential extra damage I'm not sure, but I'd be willing to bet it has some awesome bonuses against bloodied enemies.
Making a Dex primary Assassin is, IMO, a big error not only because there's a certain Rogue, but also because there's a certain Monk.
Note that if Revenants are supposed to be good Assassins, an Int/Con build is fairly probable, since Revenants are most likely a +2 Con, +2 Int race.
I would also don't mind a Cha build, especially if primary is Int. After all Tieflings and Gnomes SHOULD be good Assassins...
Getting a Cha build would probably mean Con will remain a dream (after all nobody pictures a tough Assassin...), or who knows, maybe this kind of "same but inverted warlock stats" [Int, Con/Cha] was appealing to the developers. And Wis will remain the dominion of the more inspired strikers, Monks and Avengers.
I also agree that Assassins do not deserve there own class, any more than gladiators, Samurai, or Bounty Hunters do. The Rogue class represents a particular set of skills, abilities, and powers in a broad generalized sense. Assassins encompass many of the same traits and imo simply is a focus on those traits like a paragon path. I have a hard time envisioning an assassin that will be any different than any other striker already in existense. I hope I am wrong, perhaps they will find a mechanic and corresponding fluff that will make this class uniquely different and worth detracting from the rogue.
They already have: while rogues use mundane ways of sneaking in and the like, Asassins are more supernatural, using shadows to slink in, change the way they appear and so forth. Sort of a Rogue/Shadowcaster gish I think, like how a Paladin is a Cleric/Fighter with a little bit to set it apart from either. Of course the Asassin could also be completely unique from the Rogue and fill it's own niche - just because a Rogue CAN fill the archetype of an Asassin, doesn't mean that the Asassin can't fill that same archetype better.
That said, the fact that Asassins already recived the "Gladiator" treatment in the "Art of the Kill" article makes me think that the Asassin is going to be something wholly unique and new, with a nice spin on the "knife in the dark" archetype. Whatever the case, I for one am really really looking forward to it being a whole class. Might even subscribe to DDI for the month it's released just so I can pick it up
Just for the sake of originality, I'd like Con to be the staple of an Assassin build. Something related to manipulating vital energy, like the warlock. Then I'd love an Int primary to differentiate them a bit and Wis as the other secondary, but then Devas making perfect assassins would be unlikely, though interesting.
Making a Dex primary Assassin is, IMO, a big error not only because there's a certain Rogue, but also because there's a certain Monk.
Note that if Revenants are supposed to be good Assassins, an Int/Con build is fairly probable, since Revenants are most likely a +2 Con, +2 Int race.
I would also don't mind a Cha build, especially if primary is Int. After all Tieflings and Gnomes SHOULD be good Assassins...
Getting a Cha build would probably mean Con will remain a dream (after all nobody pictures a tough Assassin...), or who knows, maybe this kind of "same but inverted warlock stats" [Int, Con/Cha] was appealing to the developers. And Wis will remain the dominion of the more inspired strikers, Monks and Avengers.
I personally would love to see a Con based class sometime soon, but I don't think the Asassin is right for it. I'm holding out for the Psionic classes in PHB3, I don't know why but Constitution just seems right for Psiconics... maybe it's just because Githyanki get a Con boost?
As for Dex not being the right primary for Asassin... well I can agree that another stat may be more appropriate (such as Cha depending on how much of a caster they are) I disagree with your reasoning. I seriously doubt any class will have different stats just to differentiate themselves from a few other classes. If anything a Dex primary might be looked at as a good thing from a developers point of view: it allows an ease of Asassin/Rogue multiclassing to create.. well since we haven't seen the Asassin yet I have no idea, but it sounds like a classic combination :P
Bel
Oh, and let's hope the assassin isn't just a glorified rogue build, that would be sad. Which actually makes me think to avoid that they'll make the assassin more of magical (shadow) sort of attacker that has a Cha/Wis modifier.
First stat: Wisdom: The first thing as assassin does after receiving the job is determine logistics, plan, and determine escapes. They also need to be able to get paid safely/hired safely.
Second stat: Dexterity, they'll need to be able to circumvent/manipulate their environment quickly and quietly without being observed. I know most people will argue that Dex should be first, but most of the heavy lifting is done before anyone actually is engaged and goes back to wisdom.
I believe the damage mechanic will be different types of DOT's, either poisons/necro/shadow with the set up of 5/10/15 by tier.
-RW
The rogue is a striker, so I think the Assassin would be too similar if it were made the same. I'm going to make a somewhat out there prediction, and call for a controller, perhaps going so far as to say it's the martial one every one has been asking for.
-RW
The assassin has already been mentioned to be using a brand new power source. This is presumably Shadow, but definitely not Martial.
First stat: Wisdom: The first thing as assassin does after receiving the job is determine logistics, plan, and determine escapes. They also need to be able to get paid safely/hired safely.
You realise these things are associated with intelligence, not wisdom right? More importantly, none of these things has anything to do with fighting style.
Second stat: Dexterity, they'll need to be able to circumvent/manipulate their environment quickly and quietly without being observed. I know most people will argue that Dex should be first, but most of the heavy lifting is done before anyone actually is engaged and goes back to wisdom.
Once again, little to do with fighting style. Also, since the assassin's a mystically powered class any attribute can be used to represent physical prowess.
I'll agree that striker damage will be achieved through DoTage though, perhapse with damage type being determined by build.
Oh, and they need a level 29 single target attack called "Murder".
The assassin has already been mentioned to be using a brand new power source. This is presumably Shadow, but definitely not Martial.
I know. I meant to add a ":P" at the end of it, but it seems it was omitted. Either way, a Controller wouldn't be too far out there. I don't know if we need another striker of that ilk. *Shrugs*
-RW
Yeah, I see striker as well. I doubt any secondary role, unless Striker/Striker counts.
I can see having Controller as a secondary role, but Striker/Striker does seem failry likely. Although I pictured the Asassin to be more of a "shadow teleport to the back, stab the controller, move onto the next target" type of striker than a straight damage one like, say the Barbarian. Focusing more on access than straight damage as it were. Although I also expect it's extra damage ability to be wicked strong. Though both these are really just hunches
Bel
I'm pretty worried guys, I'm starting to think that the only way to make the assassin an original class will be at the expenses of the rogue.
That is a genuine concern, but I'm not really worried about it to be honest. Sorcerers and Wizards ended up quite different, as an example, so I'm sure that WotC can do the same thing with Asassins and Rogues. Admittabley from the speculation Asassins and Rogues will be the same role, which complicates matters slightly... but I still think that the Asassin and Rogue won't tread on eachother's toes, at least to the same extent that, say, an Avenger doesn't step on the Ranger's toes.
How much you wanna bet revenants make good assassins?
I have faith in WotC to make it stand out from Rogue and Avenger, but I hope that at the same time they mix together well.
I'm seeing some ordering of Cha, Dex and Int for stats, it's matchs up best with races and multiclassing.
I hope to see the Shadowdancer as a PP.
This make me hope even more that they make Soulknives an option for any class.
Well this is something I'm looking forward to; Assassin is a classic name in D&D.
I have faith in WotC to make it stand out from Rogue and Avenger, but I hope that at the same time they mix together well.
I'm seeing some ordering of Cha, Dex and Int for stats, it's matchs up best with races and multiclassing.
I hope to see the Shadowdancer as a PP.
This make me hope even more that they make Soulknives an option for any class.
Good call the Shadowdancer, I hadn't thought about it.
This was completely hand-drawn, scanned, then colored using Xara Xtreme to create beveled 3D objects to give some pop to the finished work.
Enjoy! (End threadjack...)
GP
Link to 100 ppi, 24 x 36 inch version of the same map...
http://www.gamer-printshop.com/kaidan/cerene-map.jpg
. I'm predicting that the Assassin will eat:The Shadowdancer (the name might become a PP)
The Ninja archetype
The shadow blade (from TOM)
The "dark magic" aspect of the assassin prestige class
So the Assassin is the supernatural killer who draws on the dark magic of the shadowfell-essentially doing the same thing some rogues do, but with differing tools (much in the same vein as the Fighter vs. the Swordmage or the Sorcerer vs. the Wizard).
OK, as usual more a threadjack than actual participation, but since we're talking the assassin here, I thought I'd post up my latest map from the Cartographers' Guild June Map Challenge. The goal was to create a "home away from home" - so I created a magic item that acts as as portal to an Assassin's Lair. All the specifics are on the map itself.
This was completely hand-drawn, scanned, then colored using Xara Xtreme to create beveled 3D objects to give some pop to the finished work.
Enjoy! (End threadjack...)
GP
Link to 100 ppi, 24 x 36 inch version of the same map...
http://www.gamer-printshop.com/kaidan/cerene-map.jpg
Thread jacking is rude you know :P
That said that is actually a really good map, even if every room is oddly identical in size and shape. In my experiences real buildings tend to be a little more erractic, but it adds to the atmosphere.
This actually brings up another point of discussion, thanks to that scrying chamber: just how mystical are asassins going to be? Obviously if they take after the true asassin talked about in the "Art of the Kill" article they'll have access to all kinds of shadow magic, like supernatural disguise and killing people with shadows, but what about rituals? The asassin that scry's on his enemies, to detect their weakness', dispels his foes magical defences and teleports to safety after performing the kill are actually rather common, at least in prior D&D editions. So do you think the Asassin will recieve the ritual caster feat for free, perhaps also introducing some asassination based rituals?
Good questions regarding Assassin's and rituals - I couldn't guess the answer, myself though.
GP
Notice that the amulet is an exact match to the layout of the Assassin's Lair, I did that deliberately, so unnatural equal size and shape perhaps, but it was meant to follow the design of the amulet.
Oh I see, didn't really pay much attention to the amulet. That does make the shape make a lot more sense, although it really depends on how the lair came to be. If it was, say, an abandoned temple, then the shape could have some kind of religious significance, whilst if it was built by a wizard the shape could be some kind of spell component. I just prefer places I whip up to either be a realistic shape, or have a story behind the reason it's shaped that way, a pet peeve of mine I guess.
So its very much a temple as well as a lair.
Thanks for the comments. Perhaps once the assassin becomes a reality in 4e someone could use this map for their game.
GP
It was supposed to have been created by the first assassin of Cerene, conceived at the same time as the amulet. This is kind of a religious assassin anyway. The god Cerene sends his assassin worshippers to end the lives of those who have extended their lives through potions of vitality or life, extended their lives through undead status, or brought back from the dead though raise dead, or ressurrection spells.
So its very much a temple as well as a lair.
Thanks for the comments. Perhaps once the assassin becomes a reality in 4e someone could use this map for their game.
That is actually an incredible hook
. With a few minor changes that could easily be run without the Asassin as a class. Maybe it's a cult of the Raven Queen, and the Asassins are in fact a group of radical Avengers. or maybe it's as simple as replacing Asassins with Rogues/Some kind of spellcaster, or downplaying the divine theme. I don't know why but using straight Rogues for this type of thing seems wrong... although there was a Paragon class that specialized in fighting undead as a servant of the Raven Queen which would really suite any rogues that were a part of this order...That said it would be a lot easier to run this sort of organization without changing anything with Asassins. Just one of the reasons why WotC is making them I suppose ;)
I've always been bothered by any class called "Assassin".
Let's look at the dictionary definition of "Assassin":
a murderer, esp. one who kills a politically prominent person for fanatical or monetary reasons.
Do you really need a special class to murder someone for money or fanatical reasons? Of course not...so what's the point?
"But we want someone who is REALLY good at murdering people for money or fanatical reasons!"
Err...anyone can kill for whatever reason they want. There's no reason to make an entire class based on a loose concept that anyone can fill JUST as well (if in their own way...casting Evard's Dreadful Mist, then trapping someone in an Otiluke's Resilient Sphere is a particular harrowing way to "assassinate" someone).
---
I suppose my problem with an "Assassin" class is that it unfairly shoehorns a VERY popular concept/archetype into a specific class. While most players have no problem playing a Fighter, Rogue, Warlock, or Swordmage "Assassin"...
...there will be a section of people who will feel like they MUST play the Assassin class to capture the "Assassin" concept they want.
In other words, I feel that adding an "Assassin" class can potentially stifle creativity. Of course, the same could be said of Fighter (everyone can fight), Rogue (everyone can steal), Warlord (anyone can lead a warband), etc...
...it just seems that "Assassin" tends to get taken to extremes the most, in my experience.
One of the wonderful things about 4th edition is that classes are no longer "jobs" there simply what you do as far as skills in and out of combat. A "Fighter" that wears light armor and a bow is a Ranger in 4th edition. Such an approach doesn't stifle creativity any more than having a class called "fighter" or "avenger" does (I mean really, how more generic can you get than Fighter?).
In European settings of the medieval period, assassins were usually knights willing to do the dark deed. Still most famous assassinations were by Catholics onto Prodestant Kings (or vice versa).
The modern 20th century assassin is a bit different, and were usually politically motivated.
To me a D&D Assassin is not a paid-for killer, rather an avenger type pursuing an extremist point of view. To base your negativity on Assassins, but a 20th century definition, is what is twisting your point of view.
Regarding Ninja - though killing while on a mission occurred, ninja are spies, not assassins. Again, the 20th century messed definitions and bad movies getting in the way of reality.
GP
I have to agree that saying that having an asassin class in no way stifles creativity, but helps to fill a popular archetype: that of the assailant who keeps shadows, using both magic and blade to effectively take down a target quickly and effectively. In terms of concepy, the asassin could have as easily been called the Shadow Dancer, Ninja (probably, there could still be a ninja class), or maybe even Arcane Trickster depending on how it turns out, though admittabley with a darker bent. Oh and Asassin, obviously, but those other concepts fit in as well :P . WotC just decided asassin sounded cooler and fit the concept just as well as any of those other names, and I have to agree with them
Satori, as you said, while everyone can be an assassin in the sense that they can kill for money. What everyone can't be is a stealthy killer who draws on dark magic to cloak his approach and then shoves a blade of pure shadow through your heart while he steals your face. That, is what I believe an Assassin class will incorporate, making it a distinct archetype.
One of the wonderful things about 4th edition is that classes are no longer "jobs" there simply what you do as far as skills in and out of combat. A "Fighter" that wears light armor and a bow is a Ranger in 4th edition. Such an approach doesn't stifle creativity any more than having a class called "fighter" or "avenger" does (I mean really, how more generic can you get than Fighter?).
The idea of a shadow-based striker that uses the methods you described sounds very cool, hip, and fun...kind of like a Swordmage meets Rogue meets Warlock. Mechanically, I'm all about something functioning like that.
Strapping the label of "Assassin" on that particular set of mechanics bothers me, though...I'd much rather call it "Shadowblade", "Night Knife", "Fell Stalker", or something more SPECIFIC than the extremely generic term "Assassin".
It's one of those "things" that bugs me...which, of course, leaves me fully at liberty to simply change the name in my own campaigns.
But why is Dex/Cha a build option? Rogues cover that archtype, I think. Dex/Int would be a cool build, I think, but Dex/Cha? Assassins are paid to kill, and with their abilities they shouldn't need to talk to people. Dex/Wis ought to be a build option next to Dex/Int. The idea being that you have two kinds of assassins; the kind that is able to line up his kills with clever planning, and one that simply has the virtues of patience, practice, and caution when he goes about his kills.
I wonder what the striker damage for Assassins will be. I bet you need combat advantage for whatever benefit they get. I'd give them a reroll against a target they have combat advantage against when making attack rolls; but they have to take the second roll. I think it's a good idea, or a good idea to kick off from.
But why is Dex/Cha a build option? Rogues cover that archtype, I think. Dex/Int would be a cool build, I think, but Dex/Cha? Assassins are paid to kill, and with their abilities they shouldn't need to talk to people. Dex/Wis ought to be a build option next to Dex/Int. The idea being that you have two kinds of assassins; the kind that is able to line up his kills with clever planning, and one that simply has the virtues of patience, practice, and caution when he goes about his kills.
Dex/Wis is an option, but when I think of the (possible) Asassin builds, I think more in terms of stabby/spelly as opposed to smart/patient. Intelligence would be useful for an asassin who focused on the blade, as the knowledge of the human atonomy would be very useful for such attacks. Plus it just feels right for some reason. Charisma on the other hand is often used for non-bookish spell casting, like the Sorcerer and Bard, so that's the reason why I think Charisma could be a possibility for the 'spelly' build.
I wonder what the striker damage for Assassins will be. I bet you need combat advantage for whatever benefit they get. I'd give them a reroll against a target they have combat advantage against when making attack rolls; but they have to take the second roll. I think it's a good idea, or a good idea to kick off from.
That is a possibility. My theories are either that the Asassin will get extra damage against foes it has concealment against, and be able to shroud itself in shadow as a minor action, or that they'll be able to make a secondary attack against fortitude when they hit their target that does a lot of damage, reminiscent of killing blow. That could work just as well though, though it's a little fiddley for my taste.
But why is Dex/Cha a build option? Rogues cover that archtype, I think. Dex/Int would be a cool build, I think, but Dex/Cha? Assassins are paid to kill, and with their abilities they shouldn't need to talk to people. Dex/Wis ought to be a build option next to Dex/Int. The idea being that you have two kinds of assassins; the kind that is able to line up his kills with clever planning, and one that simply has the virtues of patience, practice, and caution when he goes about his kills.
Because one of the major assassin archetypes is the suave sophisticated killer, the lady's man, streetwise and capable of bluffing, feinting, and tricking the pants off you - James Bond, Michael Westen, etc. Charismatic assassins are just as well established, and perhaps more popular, as the lengthy planners. Plus, I'd argue your clever planner and patient killer are the same person, ie both would be either Wis or Int, and not two separate builds.
Because one of the major assassin archetypes is the suave sophisticated killer, the lady's man, streetwise and capable of bluffing, feinting, and tricking the pants off you - James Bond, Michael Westen, etc. Charismatic assassins are just as well established, and perhaps more popular, as the lengthy planners. Plus, I'd argue your clever planner and patient killer are the same person, ie both would be either Wis or Int, and not two separate builds.
You know, what you describe and who you describe are called trickster rogues, who do the assassins for a living.
A fantasy assassin, particularly one of the Shadow power source is as far from James Bond as Darth Vader from Boba Fett, just to stay on movies and well known characters. They're both assassins when they want, what's the difference? One kills you by choking you with his thought, the other by shooting at you. It's called power source.
"suave sophisticated killer, the lady's man, streetwise and capable of bluffing, feinting, and tricking the pants off you" is something of Martial characters: others would do it with spells, different powers, not pure skill and training. So...
The point is this: they're giving a clearly "martialesque" name to something we know it's gonna be Shadow, which means much more mystical than anything you could call just an assassin.
Unless we're missing something, Wizards have either chosen a bad name, or made a bad class in case they really make what you, and most people think when they think about an assassin, because in that case it would just be a Rogue on steroids. Let's just hope for the former option.
You know, what you describe and who you describe are called trickster rogues, who do the assassins for a living.
A fantasy assassin, particularly one of the Shadow power source is as far from James Bond as Darth Vader from Boba Fett, just to stay on movies and well known characters. They're both assassins when they want, what's the difference? One kills you by choking you with his thought, the other by shooting at you. It's called power source.
I actually have to agree with this. If you want to play Boba Fett, you should probably play a Rogue. I'm really looking forward to being able to force grip people to death as Darth Vader though, whatever stat array he uses :D
The point is this: they're giving a clearly "martialesque" name to something we know it's gonna be Shadow, which means much more mystical than anything you could call just an assassin.
I disagree. Assassin as a generic term may suggest martial origins, but in prior issues of D&D the Assassin was quite mystical. For example, in 3.5 it was a warrior/caster not unlike, say, the Bard, though admittabley it was a prestige class. So in my opinion anyway, the Assassin name does imply something a little more supernatural than martial.
Unless we're missing something, Wizards have either chosen a bad name, or made a bad class in case they really make what you, and most people think when they think about an assassin, because in that case it would just be a Rogue on steroids. Let's just hope for the former option.
I don't think it's a bad name, but I honestly have to agree that I hope it's the former option. I'm not adverse to haveing the Assassin be somewhat similar to the Rogue (though without all the swashbuckling... I find it difficult to make an Assassin like character with a Rogue simply because so many of their attacks are so flashy), but I really don't want it to just be Rogues 2.0. And I sincerely doubt they will be ;)
Unless we're missing something, Wizards have either chosen a bad name, or made a bad class in case they really make what you, and most people think when they think about an assassin, because in that case it would just be a Rogue on steroids. Let's just hope for the former option.
Or your preconceptions are wrong. How your abilities function is not the same as how you act. A druid can be just as much a trickster as a bard as a rogue.
Or your preconceptions are wrong. How your abilities function is not the same as how you act. A druid can be just as much a trickster as a bard as a rogue.
Which preconceptions? And speaking of how abilities function / how you act, how would you envision the abilities/powers of the charismatic assassin you outlined?
Which preconceptions? And speaking of how abilities function / how you act, how would you envision the abilities/powers of the charismatic assassin you outlined?
Your preconceptions that a shadowy mystic killer can't be charismatic. As for abilities, beyond what was in the "true assassin" blurb in Dragon I don't know. But as I said, abilities are not the same as personality/actions. To use your own example - Darth Vader is definitely charismatic, even if it's in a negative, uncharming way.
But how about illusions, mystical guises, force of will stuff, etc? All Charisma based.
this would first of all cover all three NADs (and I would expect an add con mod to AC to help AC and it would probably flavored as since your chanaling more shadow, your body starts to become it.
As for play style, I would expect it to be more along the lines of the Lurker if it was a monster. Its damage boost might be a do no attack for a turn and on your next turn you might be able to perform a modified Coup de Grace (extra damage+double your normal damage+other? but it doesn't kill it outright eve if you dealt enough damage equal to it bloodied value) also it might get some sort of boost during the turn it doesn't attack with such as the afore mention concealment or even invisibility (such as standard action invisibility).
However you would probably have to wrap all of this up into one ability such the Avengers Oath of Enmity.
Slayers Target:
Encounter
minor action
One target in burst 20
Effect: that creature is now your target. you can now use a standard action to turn invisible to the target until the end of your next turn. while invisible to that creature, you also have concealment to all other creatures. Any attack you make against your target while you are invisible to it due to this power deals double damage.
Special: who your target dies, you recharge this power.
Now this is probably a grossly overpowered power, but then I'm writing this after midnight... but anyway something similar might appear to this.
Oh, and to whoever thought that this character would fall into steriotypes, I have to say that this would be perfect for my Drow who is gaining more abilities to use his racial powers, and the class could be easily reflavored to new drow abilities... so instead of mystical rogue it is now a drow apotheosis. :D
-Dgill
Your preconceptions that a shadowy mystic killer can't be charismatic. As for abilities, beyond what was in the "true assassin" blurb in Dragon I don't know. But as I said, abilities are not the same as personality/actions. To use your own example - Darth Vader is definitely charismatic, even if it's in a negative, uncharming way.
But how about illusions, mystical guises, force of will stuff, etc? All Charisma based.
Now that's different, I was right to ask. I'm not at all saying that the true assassin we're talking about (cause now I know we're talking about the same) can't be charismatic, especially in the sense of being Charisma-based. And this especially because of the examples you rightly cited, like illusion, disguise etc.
An example I brought up in the other assassin thread was a PrC of mine that was actually so big that it could very well be compared to a class. It was derived from the Shosuro Tejina, a type of very mystical ninja from Legend Of The 5 Rings. I called it Shadow Nefarite (I also argued how a name like "Nefarite" could have been perfect for the new assassin, if maybe a little too cryptic) and it was built on Charisma. At a high level it even gave you Cha to AC, something that wouldn't be out of place for the Assassin, if not because Dex or Int are going to be primaries so it will be unnecessary.
The only thing that takes my concept a little far from that of the generic shadow striker assassin is the fact of being tied to abyssal heritage/influence. But fluff-wise and especially power-wise, if you give it a look you'll see how well it could match.
I ranted because the archetype you were outlining before was something charismatic in a "martial way", in that it used skills and "normal" abilities to the maximum. Of course you will be able to make a skillful mystical Assassin, but those kind of things will always be more of a Rogue dominion, power-wise. I HOPE... You know, here are my worries: if they give "skillful-type powers" to a mystical assassin class, they're either outclassing the rogue or basically making a "multiclass thing through a single class". That is half a class, since they would have been borrowing half of the things from the rogue (changing little things) and just adding the other half.
I think now our points are clearer. (?)
As for play style, I would expect it to be more along the lines of the Lurker if it was a monster.
Sir, without knowing you have brought out the perfect name we were looking for.
LURK, actually. Why hadn't the devs thought about it? It was even already used in 3.5... Or they considered it and discarted it just because back then it was a (so so) psionic class and they wanted to avoid confusion?
Sir, without knowing you have brought out the perfect name we were looking for.
LURK, actually. Why hadn't the devs thought about it? It was even already used in 3.5... Or they considered it and discarted it just because back then it was a (so so) psionic class and they wanted to avoid confusion?
Or because they thought Lurk was too close in concept to a rogue who's more about stealth and subterfuge (as in lurks in the shadows) rather than the MASTER of the shadows who uses them to get to his chosen target and take it down fast. Assassin may make some think rogue and they see an overlap but I at least see much more overlap between Lurk and Rogue than Assassin and Rogue. To me the Lurk would be like the Rogue and focused on stealth and trickery while the Assassin is more focused on killing (and in the case of the 4e class use of shadows in a very literal/mystical sense rather than just to provide concealment with a skill check).
Sir, without knowing you have brought out the perfect name we were looking for.
LURK, actually. Why hadn't the devs thought about it? It was even already used in 3.5... Or they considered it and discarted it just because back then it was a (so so) psionic class and they wanted to avoid confusion?
*cringes* I'm sorry, but that just sounds horrible as a class name, at least to me. I am very glad that they did not go with that in this case. Assassin is a perfectly fine name as the fighting style, as described in the Assassin's article, appears to be highly optimized for assassinations.
You have rogue which in 4.0 actually does a really nice job at beeing an assassin.
You have the warlock for all the teleport mojo you could ever want...
The rogue even have the at one point ultimate finishing move "assassin's strike".
My questions are thus: How can an assassin be more assassin than the current rogue without a. becoming more powerful, b. becoming extremely situational (I would love this, but its against the 4.0 philosophy)?
Even I who is an avid assassin fan and who thought the 3.5 version was horrible thought the rogue did a great job at capturing their feeling in 4.0. Even the ninjas among us who want to teleport around and be all dark and scary about it had excellent choices in multiclassing to warlock...
The only thing I can see implemented that would be cool, new and assassiny would be a dexterity+intelligence based martial character who can deal extreme damage if everything goes 100% perfectly. This would only be a rogue/ranger on steroids though so again, i fail to see how this class can be cool.
My questions are thus: How can an assassin be more assassin than the current rogue without a. becoming more powerful, b. becoming extremely situational (I would love this, but its against the 4.0 philosophy)?
Well, that a very 3.5esq thing to worry about; balance as an issue, has only been a problem in 4E through flukes and off the wall combos for the most part, I don't worry about stuff like that now in 4E.
I think the Assassin will not really be more of an assassin than a rogue, they will just have a more extreme approach to it.
I don't have a problem with the name, it's a word that's both flexable and has some iconicness to it without having everything spelled out for the characters identity.
Well, that a very 3.5esq thing to worry about; balance as an issue, has only been a problem in 4E through flukes and off the wall combos for the most part, I don't worry about stuff like that now in 4E.
I think the Assassin will not really be more of an assassin than a rogue, they will just have a more extreme approach to it.
I don't have a problem with the name, it's a word that's both flexable and has some iconicness to it without having everything spelled out for the characters identity.
Sure. I agree with you, thats why I am worried. I Don't think they will make him into an un-balanced monster. That pretty much leaves the only open spot as a super-situational extreme-rogue, which is also against the philosophy of 4.0. What I am trying to show is that i doubt they will do either of these, thus leaving the assassin with well... nothing new or unique to them.
We have the rogue, warlock and avenger. How can assassin add anything to that mix? In 3.5 it would be easy, since still when 4.0 came along they never did a proper job on the concept (seeing how widely critizised the DMG version was).
As for flexibility, I believe assassins are super-flexible, which is why in 4.0 I was pleased to see that the rogue actually let me play just about the assassin I wanted; a dexterity+charisma guy who is fierce in combat (daggermaster) and who is not into shadow-magic.
PS: Revenants have a +2 bonus to Constitution and Dexterity.
My guess is Dex primary for the Assassin, if only because it seems like the natural choice. (Awesome Rogue multiclassing too, I hope!)
Shhhh!!!! You'll start thax ranting about Rogues making Assassins unnecessary again! :P
The Con would be for a Poison-based build, and would be needed (or possessed) as a side effect of needing to avoid self-poisoning. Int would be for more of a straight Shadow magic build.
Also, Satori... if you are who I think you are, hisasiburi. ;) I should think that WotC used the word 'Assassin' purely for its name recognition. You could probably very easily call the class a 'Shadowblade', but what does that mean? It doesn't 'catch you' and hold your attention like the word 'Assassin'. This is exactly the same question as to why you label your sweaters as 'sweaters' rather than 'cold weather gear'. You might have a sweater that isn't, technically, a sweater, but it's the name recognition that you're trying to foster. And 'Assassin' already has a long and storied history associated with it.
That being said, feel free to change the name. ;) Everyone likes individuality, especially when used to further campaign ends.
I see poison and necrotic and maybe acid as the most prominent damage types. I see illusions as utilities (maybe as a few dailies or encounters). I see controller as a secondary role due to ongoing damages and (very unlikely) leader for the fact that maybe those shadows will help the party out some way or make the targets more vulnerable to allies attacks. I also see fear, alot of fear after all the second most common fear (after public speaking) is death and asassins are death.
I have not seen any suggestions for weapons so here is what I think. I think they will have proficientcies with exotic weapons (like maybe they get one choice or maybe that choice comes with the build). I think that maybe the extra damage or more accurate feature that strikers come with may not be so straigt forward as that. I think it will give a bonus to hit and inflict a status condition (maybe you get to make the choice and you get more choices ast later tiers or maybe it will be according to build).
I do not think that the asassin base class will be too similair to the rouge because it gets a new power source.
By the way does anyone know the actual day that the asassin will be released?
I didn't see anyone say this but what if the asassin will be more like a warlock where there are 2 primary stats (based upon build) with one or two secondaries (if 2 secondaries it would probably be more like three or four builds). I mean we have little prescident but we do have prescident in the warlock. If it is this way I would probably vote for cha and dex as primaries and maybe con and int as secondaries (if there are in fact 2 secondaries) Cha build would probaby have alot to do with using shadow stuff and I could see either secondary working but I think I would have to go with Con and I think that dex would have int (I think that the revenant might just have the one primary) because it seems to be a good combination for those who are from the plane of shadow (shadar-kai). If I had to go with 2 primaries and a secondary I think I would go with Con and dex with cha as a secondary because cha would fit with both well. I hope I am making sense.
I see poison and necrotic and maybe acid as the most prominent damage types. I see illusions as utilities (maybe as a few dailies or encounters). I see controller as a secondary role due to ongoing damages and (very unlikely) leader for the fact that maybe those shadows will help the party out some way or make the targets more vulnerable to allies attacks. I also see fear, alot of fear after all the second most common fear (after public speaking) is death and asassins are death.
I have not seen any suggestions for weapons so here is what I think. I think they will have proficientcies with exotic weapons (like maybe they get one choice or maybe that choice comes with the build). I think that maybe the extra damage or more accurate feature that strikers come with may not be so straigt forward as that. I think it will give a bonus to hit and inflict a status condition (maybe you get to make the choice and you get more choices ast later tiers or maybe it will be according to build).
I do not think that the asassin base class will be too similair to the rouge because it gets a new power source.
By the way does anyone know the actual day that the asassin will be released?
I think you are very close to what we will see soon enough. It still feels strange to me though, as I find this description a tad to close to the warlock and more importantly (trying to go by WotC thinking) it rules out the Ninja as a future class by itself (since you basically described a fantasy-ninja).
I would hope and wait to the last to see if they don't make a non-magical assassin, but I know I hope in vein
I actually have to agree with this. If you want to play Boba Fett, you should probably play a Rogue. I'm really looking forward to being able to force grip people to death as Darth Vader though, whatever stat array he uses :D
He uses Int/Con, because he's a Swordmage. Arcane Power's level 3 encounter power Unseen Gauntlet.