Most (but not all) of the people I used to play with stopped playing D&D when 4E came out.
I, luckily, found a good new group to play with two years ago when 4E arrived. Now with the arrival of 4.5 (call it essentials if you want, that's a debate on another thread) my current group is taking the stance of dropping D&D altogether.
My theory is that the 4E books are not selling as well as WotC/Hasbro would like. Someone up the corporate ladder has given the order to try to recruit new players, but in doing so the designers haved failed (again) to realize they are p*ssing off and alienating their existing customers. They strive to recruit new players, but only end up fracturing the market base everytime they put out a new core line. The success of Pathfinder is evidence of a big split in the marketplace that happened during the 3x to 4x switch.
Now what ? My subscription is paid up until sometime in 2011... Looks like I will either need to find a new group to play with (again) or learn how to play some anemic system like Dragon Age or Savage Worlds if I want to game with the current group. Star Wars is done, the all the miniatures lines have gone to hell, along with the economy. After playing D&D since 1979, maybe it's time for a new hobby... guess I gotta' grow up sometime
To quote myself on this very issue:
Or maybe they were so specific with their language to avoid people trying to using the meaningless "4.5" buzz term to try and gank them like they did duringing the Edition Wars, and try to smear their attempts to expand the game as a money grab or a design failure. You know. Kind of like what is happening now.
From what we know the Essentials line, it will not change the usability of current material, it will not change the way the game works on any fundamental level. Most people still get their daily powers. All of your old books are still good. At best it just makes a few new ways to play old classes based on improved design philosophy. You know. Like the Power books. Which we've been getting for two years.
Calm down. This is not 4.5. You're all being silly.
At best this is a great new way to work on the game. At worst? Something to be swept under the rug and continue on with all of the toys you have and will get in the future.
Mearls himself more or less stated that whatever the Essentials do, they aren't big enough to change the game to the point where the PHB1 is invalid, since he's using it to design material currently (which, due to time dealy, means stuff to go out in 2012) The article previewing them explicitly stated that all other 4e material could be used with the Essentials products, and that no major rules changes would be inherent. The most groundbreaking thing is just a new way to build a few old classes based on new design lessons. Which is the same exact kind of stuff you get in Power Books. Yes, we will see classes without Dailies, but we already have classes without encounters.
Your group is being melodramatic, and so are you. This is not a crisis. This is not an issue. WotC is doing fine and, I'm sure, is in fact better than ever. Every time there is a change people crawl out of the woodwork screeching "CASHGRAB!" and "TEH FAIL!," very often long before they can even begin to comprehend what is going to happen.
This thread is no exception.
PS: Just out of curiosity, what is the point of making a thread just to announce your quitting the game over an announcement telling us about the previews of a product you have never seen and have no way of understanding at this point and time?
You're just stating a theory, with no real proof beyond them trying to attract new players to the game (which i will say, in my opinion, 4th's done a wonderful job of already).
Why would you quit over a product line for new people. You could just use your current books and have fun.
You could just use your current books and have fun.
Or pillage the new books for new material....like everyone does with every other book WotC prints.
After playing D&D since 1979, maybe it's time for a new hobby... guess I gotta' grow up sometime
Funny, I thought growing up was realizing you can keep playing whatever version of the game makes you happy. Quitting the game entirely just because they (announce they're going to) make something new seems extremely immature, espcially when it's just an expansion to the current edition, not a replacement.
"In addition to regular Pepsi, we're now selling Cherry Pepsi."
"I hate cherries. I'm switching to Coke."
You mean to tell me that your group is seriously considering not playing D&D at all, ever again, because Wizards is releasing a product that will in no way interfere with how you play D&D? Why can't you corporate conspiracy theory spinners get the fact that this isn't any kind of edition change? It doesn't replace anything. It's still the exact same game you are playing right now.
Essentials will just provide new and lapsed players with an easy and more digestable path into the game, and veteran players a handful of new options to play with. Plus, old and new players alike will get tons of tokens, tiles and maps. And, best of all, you don't have to buy it if doesn't appeal to you. If you and your group want to leave over that, then maybe D&D isn't the game for you.
If you and your group want to leave over that, then maybe D&D isn't the game for you.
This exact sentence is what causes the Wars. No wonder the market is fragmented, the old D&D players are being told that the game they are playing isn't for them.
Not to mention a quote from the DMG:
"You won’t find a world map in this or any of the core D&D rulebooks. “The world” in which the
D&D game takes place doesn’t have a map—not until you create one."
Now we see this: www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/p...
I don't know why they're so flamed about it, I think it's long overdue.
If you and your group want to leave over that, then maybe D&D isn't the game for you.
This exact sentence is what causes the Wars. No wonder the market is fragmented, the old D&D players are being told that the game they are playing isn't for them.
Except that I am an old D&D player. I think edition wars are more commonly started because of people making baseless assumptions and coming up with conspiracy theories about how WotC is an evil corporation created with the sole purpose of destroying D&D and alienating all of the real, true, hardcore D&D players. [/hyperbole]
I just don't see how someone can seriously plan on quitting D&D based on what we know currently about Essentials.
BoneManPress: Try telling your group that Essentials isn't going to change the D&D you guys are playing. The "new core" comment just means that Essentials is the new way to start playing the game. If you already play, then you can completely ignore it. And, you'll be getting all of the crunch to examine in the CB and Compendium with your subscription. So, if you do like the new stuff, you can use it with the stuff you already use.
If WotC turns around and says, "We're getting into the chicken farming industry because it's more profitable", I'm not really going to care, because that's probably true. It's their goal to make money and to expand. Essentials is going to just that. I highly doubt it's 4.5 in the least. It's something they HAVE to do, or that stay static and never expand to other demographics or markets. And while this may be fine for a lot of you guys, I personally want WotC to stay in business.
If you’re already playing a Dungeons & Dragons game, there’s one very important thing to remember—the Essentials products matter only as much as you want them to. We very carefully designed the new classes and added more options to the races in such a way that existing characters remain unchanged. Aside from the rules updates introduced over the past few months, of which the relevant pieces are included in the Rules Compendium, little (if anything) on your character sheet has changed. The only real changes rest in wizard encounter spells (they have miss effects now), and those changes are almost entirely additive in nature. Your burning hands spell is the same spell as before, except now it deals half damage on a miss.
This point bears repeating—Aside from rules updates and changes to one category of wizard spells, the character you are playing today does not change in any major way. It was crucial to us that someone playing a dwarf fighter today didn’t need to rebuild that character once the Essentials products were released.
From the Essentials article.
Important points highlighted.
Status of sky: not falling.
That, along with all the rules updates and errata are revisions, as defined by the english word.
Revise.
1. to amend or alter.
2. to alter something already written or printed, in order to make corrections, improve or update.
So, eventually, there will be so many revisions to 4e, that it will be (if not already is) a revised edition. Even if wotc doesn't slap the .5/ revised tag on it.
I'm not saying that's good or bad, I'm just saying it's inevitable. For the record, I still enjoy 4e regardless of all the revisions. (updates and errata)
[edited]
2. to alter something already written or printed, in order to make corrections, improve or update.
So, eventually, there will be so many revisions to 4e, that it will be (if not already is) a revised edition. Even if wotc doesn't slap the .5/ revised tag on it.
I'm not saying that's good or bad, I'm just saying it's inevitable. For the record, I still enjoy 4e regardless of all the revisions. (updates and errata)
[edited]
"I like Pepsi."
"In addition to regular Pepsi, we're now selling Cherry Pepsi."
"I hate cherries. I'm switching to Coke."
You mean to tell me that your group is seriously considering not playing D&D at all, ever again, because Wizards is releasing a product that will in no way interfere with how you play D&D? Why can't you corporate conspiracy theory spinners get the fact that this isn't any kind of edition change? It doesn't replace anything. It's still the exact same game you are playing right now.
Essentials will just provide new and lapsed players with an easy and more digestable path into the game, and veteran players a handful of new options to play with. Plus, old and new players alike will get tons of tokens, tiles and maps. And, best of all, you don't have to buy it if doesn't appeal to you. If you and your group want to leave over that, then maybe D&D isn't the game for you.
My groups still play 3.5, and even I'm considering buying the Essentials line, just for all the nifty supplies it comes with(tokens, tiles, adventures, etc).
Honestly, I think the Essentials line is one of the smartest things WotC has done in 2 years. I applaud them for it.
I think he is right on the fragmentation of players.
GenCon 2010 will have around 210 4th ed. games.
3.5 has around 120
Pathfinder has around 120
So more people will be playing previous editions of the game then the shinny new 4th.
This means absolutely nothing. Could be that there are space limitations and many playing 3.5 or Pathfinder had to settle because they couldn't get in on the 4E games.
Did everyone miss the whole part of Essentials being a 10 book / item run. Not continuing forward but thats it 10.....not 9 not 11....10.
I think everyone knows this. What makes people concern is that the books after Essentials seems to have the same trade dress of the Essentials instead of the corebooks ie small paperbacks, making it seems like a continuation of Essentials.
or learn how to play some anemic system like Dragon Age or Savage Worlds if I want to game with the current group. Star Wars is done, the all the miniatures lines have gone to hell, along with the economy.
I just want to point out, that sometime people want to try new things, and this may have nothing to do with the new books. Not to bash 4e, it's great, but it's really ok if you play a game other then D&D.
I promise, your books won't get jelous and take a baseball bat to your car.
10 books is no small matter. That alone could be an entire edition.
But it isn't 10 books. It's 10 products, including 3 sets of tiles and some dice. As far as books go, you'll have the Compendium, two class books, a book about DMing and a new book of monsters.
So, you have 5 books, because the Red Box books are just going to be simple, introductory versions of the RC and whatever DM book is in the DM's Kit.
The Compendium is just all of the game rules compiled with errata. And I don't see how the DM book could be anything other than the best of DMG 1 and 2. The Monster Vault book is just another collection of new monsters with more balanced stats and the new stat-block format.
So, you really end up with 2 'new' books, as the "Heroes of" books are the only ones with anything truly different inside. And since those 2 books only add to the class pool and don't replace anything, they are really no different than a supplement like Martial Power.
There is nothing in this line that invalidates or is incompatible with any 4E products that came before it. I fail to see how any of this could be seen as a new edition.
Over all, I'm not against essentials. I just have questions. Which I ask in the other thread.
D&D might be the only thing I have ever seen where people cling so passionately to previous versions of the game. But if version "x.5" of a new computer program comes out, or if Apple puts out an updated iPhone, those same people jump through the roof. It's really bizarre to me.
Let's face it—no version of D&D has been completely perfect. There can always be room for improvement, so why not try to shake things up a bit? And if people don't like it, if they prefer 4e for its insert arguably superior quality here, then they're free to ignore the Essentials line. There are still people who swear by the Super NES, or have Windows 2000 on their computers. It's a free country.
I, for one, think this is clearly 4.5. It takes ".5" back to its actual meaning—an update with changes and new features that still relies on an existing infrastructure. And rather than lament "4.5," I'm embracing the change. It's new, it's sparkly, and it incorporates the past two years of rules changes, debates, and everything else WotC has learned about this system. I can't wait to kick the tires.
So I propose a new camp: "It's 4.5! Hooray!"
Smite undead is also pretty clearly inferior to the current turn undead, unless Im missing something.
As for it obsoleting the strength cleric? Possibly, but that was already an unloved kitten already.
Perhaps they would have been better off showing showing a class that doesnt have 'glaring' weakspots, like the rogue.