Honestly. I can't really explain it any better. Out of all of my 3.5 and 4E books, this books is the best one. It just blows away the entire competition. Every single build in the book is evocative and would make an absolutely FUN character to play.
I can't tell you enough how much I love this book. If it were a person I probably would propose to it! Every chapter in this book is a gem to read, and every new mechanic is something that would be fun to incorporate into a character. I applaud WotC for Martial Power 2, and I hope the rest of the second series of X Power books follow in it's footsteps!
Oh and it also had much better fluff than Primal Power. Thanks for listening WotC!
With the previous book, Underdark, WOTC seems to be on a momentum on producing good stuff as of late. Will PHB3 blow our minds next?
Was that pun intended or not? :p
MP 2 is cool, im liking the brawler style fighter. There's Dark sun. How many hands free does a thri-kreen have as a brawler fighter ?
The 'Kreen's multiple hands essentially give them Quick Draw. There may be upper level feats, or a racial PPath that allows them to wield more weapons.
However, based on the racial feature, they may be able to count "hand free" while wielding two weapons. I doubt it though, at least not initially.
I was skeptical at first, but the more I look at it, the more I want to play a Bowlord.
While I haven't read it in its entirety I am pleasantly surprised by MP2. It has actually exceeded my expectations, and IMO it's better than the original MP. The combat styles in particular have been greatly improved from their playtest versions. Also, sweet sweet fluff. 
Now I can only complain that my fighter doesn't have enough feats to get all that cool stuff... 
I was going to skip it because it's so thin for its price
Umm... It's the same page count and price as all the other "X Power" books (including the first Martial Power).
Thanks, WOTC, for giving me exactly what I've been missing since 4E came out 2 years ago. Between this and the PHB 3, the versatility to build PCs inspired by fantasy fiction or film outside the realm of typical D&D tropes has reached the level of 3.5 without becoming the mess that was.
I never said I bought those, though.
Oh, well, fair enough then. Although I would not recommend getting MP2 if you haven't got MP1.
The Ranger, for example, now feels truly complete, with the skirmishing powers (similar to the mechanics used by Scout, my favorite 3.5 class) and Dex-based melee attacks. I feel like I can finally mix and match the builds to acheive the concept I wanted from the begining.
I'm actually profoundly disappointed with the hunter ranger build. It's still nowhere near possible to build a primarily melee ranger without using Str as your main attack stat. There just aren't enough Dex-based melee powers for a full build. So the hunter is stuck as an archer ranger who can fight a little bit in melee if he really has to, not a truly versatile ranged-or-melee build.
I've been trying since 4th edition came out to make a faithful adaptation of my character from Neverwinter Nights 2 (a Dex-and-weapon-finesse dual-wielding wood elf ranger) and she's still not really viable as a playable legal character.
And does anyone else find it conceptually weird that the ranger who dual-wields longswords will be attacking with Str, while the ranger waving a fullblade around is attacking with Dex? I'm further disappointed that, even with three dual-wielding classes available now, there are still no dual-wielding powers in the entire game that use Dex - they're still all Str-based.
And does anyone else find it conceptually weird that the ranger who dual-wields longswords will be attacking with Str, while the ranger waving a fullblade around is attacking with Dex?
On the one hand, wielding a weapon as heavy as a longsword in your off-hand definitely seems like a Strength thing. Even more so with bastard swords, that would take some serious muscle.
But on the other hand... yes, it does seem kind of silly that the great weapon build is the one based on Dex.
On the one hand, wielding a weapon as heavy as a longsword in your off-hand definitely seems like a Strength thing. Even more so with bastard swords, that would take some serious muscle.
But on the other hand... yes, it does seem kind of silly that the great weapon build is the one based on Dex.
4 lb. is heavy? O.o
It is when you're trying to kill someone with it in your off hand. You try it.
4 lb. is heavy? O.o
For a longsword it is. Mine (which is actually a hand-and-a-half - i.e. what D&D calls a "bastard sword") weighs in at 3.5 lbs.
Which is why I have no problem with the ability to use a D&D "longsword" in your off-hand. A sword like that weighs 3 lbs. or so. Which, for a trained swordsman, is not that heavy.
D&D frequently overestimates weapon weights. Hell, my greatsword only weighs about 6.5 lbs.
It is when you're trying to kill someone with it in your off hand. You try it.
Or better yet, don't. Try swinging around a baseball bat in your off-hand, but don't try killing anyone with anything. Please.
4 lb. is heavy? O.o
For a longsword it is. Mine (which is actually a hand-and-a-half - i.e. what D&D calls a "bastard sword") weighs in at 3.5 lbs.
Which is why I have no problem with the ability to use a D&D "longsword" in your off-hand. A sword like that weighs 3 lbs. or so. Which, for a trained swordsman, is not that heavy.
D&D frequently overestimates weapon weights. Hell, my greatsword only weighs about 6.5 lbs.
Yeah, but modern alloys are better than medieval ones, both lighter and stronger. Unless you have a genuine antique, I wouldn't use that as evidence.
I liked MP2's fighting style explanations per race. Yay! Flavor Text!
Man, I have to also point out: Have you ever tried to effectively swing two longsword length objects with the intent to harm something? Take into account how the two lengths can get in the way of one another, the weight, the shock of hitting something, etc. I think they D&D got two weapon fighting pretty dead on this time.
I liked MP2's fighting style explanations per race. Yay! Flavor Text!
Meh using two weapons simulteniously is heroic feat in and on itself regardles of atribute used to do it.
What if you're using a Katana?
What if you are? It's still about 3 or 4 pounds. If you don't believe me, find yourself a good iaito to weigh.
They're fancy and sharp, but they're not light as a feather, and "weapon balance" still doesn't mean your arms won't get really tired in a hurry if you spend all day waving it around. (Each pound of weapon weight geometrically increases how quickly you'll tire For demonstration purposes, try waving a 12 lb. sledgehammer around for five minutes without putting it down; that's what it would be like to use a weapon of that weight in battle.)
Man, I have to also point out: Have you ever tried to effectively swing two longsword length objects with the intent to harm something? Take into account how the two lengths can get in the way of one another, the weight, the shock of hitting something, etc. I think they D&D got two weapon fighting pretty dead on this time.
I liked MP2's fighting style explanations per race. Yay! Flavor Text!
More often than not you probably aren't swinging the swords at the same time, just in rapid succession. Shorter swords allow for simulataneous attacks easier than longswords though.
What if you're using a Katana?
Then we're still talking about longswords. ;)
What if you're using a Katana?
Then we're still talking about longswords. ;)
You mean half a longsword right? Since it only has one edge. :P *runs away from katana fanboys*
[ Yeah, but modern alloys are better than medieval ones, both lighter and stronger. Unless you have a genuine antique, I wouldn't use that as evidence.
I'm not so sure you're right about this. True, modern alloys are better than medieval ones, but in what way, precisely, are they better? The answer is that modern steels have fewer slag inclusions than medieval ones, which were products of less-perfect, pre-Bessemer process forging techniques. Now, those slag inclusions present in the medieval steel would probably be impurities that were less dense than the iron that composed most of the blade. Thus, a weapon made of medieval steel would actually be lighter than a modern one of equivalent dimensions, even if only microscopically.
For more on the subject of medieval metallurgy, see Dr. Alan Williams's "The Knight and the Blast Furnace."
Additionally, the weights of surviving medieval weapons can be had pretty readily, usually measured in grams, in museum catalogues. A quick survey of these demonstrates that most modern reproductions really are heavier than the real thing.
And ironically, the brawler fighter seems like a good basis for building a swordsman. Punches and grabs are a common component of swordfights, and the stat synergy is there, so yay.
I've only skimmed the book, but I really like the Jack-of-all-Trades paragon path. Yes, it's not for people who are looking for the best combat mechanics, but if you're in a low combat campaign (like I am), and you're looking to be the best skill monkey you can be, this one is practically overpowered. +2 untyped bonus to all skills and train 3 additional skills? The only question is whether it's better for my Jack-of-all-Trades rogue or my Jack-of-all-Trades bard. Heck, let's do both.
Yeah when I cracked open the book at the store to take a peak it was the Jack of All Trades that showed up, and yeah that paragon path looks so cool. If I ever play a rogue it's going to be a tough choice between the slinger paragon class and this one.
I agree that this book is an amazing value. For the first time in months I find myself constructing character builds and concepts like crazy. It has single-handedly resurrected the Ranger class for me, made the Warlord even better, re-created the Dex/Int rogue...I'm pretty much in love here. This book hs overshadowed even the excitement of PHB3 for me...although perhaps my tune will be different in a month!
Dex-based two-hander weapon style = kendo. And I agree that it's not quite viable without mixing in the bow yet, but a Dragon article could solve that problem anytime, as could a little homebrewing. Since samurai were archers anyway, I find myself satisfied.
That made me think… Kendo + Kyuudo. Hunter Ranger makes an awesome mixed-Japanese weapon artist.
Now I need to ressurect my Japanese setting, since 4e is so viable.
Actually, thats a pretty awesome character right there, I have to admit that. I know I ranted above, but thats just the obligatory response from me. Now, all we need is the Dex-secondary bard build, and we really are good to go.
Wait, so we can be a bard, take Bard of all Trades, which nets us a total +4 on untrained skills. And now we can multi-class rogue, and get the Jack-of-all-trades PP, for a total of +6 to untrained skills? So I'm actually worse at trained skills than untrained? WTF, WotC, thats just a crazy combo to bring into the game. It just breaks the intentions of training skills. Just don't train the ones you want, and you're better at them. Training them inhibits you ability to use them. Really, why do we have this combo?
Actually, thats a pretty awesome character right there, I have to admit that. I know I ranted above, but thats just the obligatory response from me. Now, all we need is the Dex-secondary bard build, and we really are good to go.
The PP gives the bonus to all skills not just untrained, so you'll be better than your companions who are untrained in the skill(assuming roughly the same stats), but you'll still be better when you train a skill.
-=Edit: Wait, how do you get a +4 anyways? Bard gives you +1 from skill versatility. Jack of all trades gives you +2. So that is a total of +3. With the +2 from the PP that only makes the character as good as their companions who are trained in the skill(assuming equal stats and no skill training from the companion).=-
Wait, so we can be a bard, take Bard of all Trades, which nets us a total +4 on untrained skills. And now we can multi-class rogue, and get the Jack-of-all-trades PP, for a total of +6 to untrained skills? So I'm actually worse at trained skills than untrained? WTF, WotC, thats just a crazy combo to bring into the game. It just breaks the intentions of training skills. Just don't train the ones you want, and you're better at them. Training them inhibits you ability to use them. Really, why do we have this combo?
Actually, thats a pretty awesome character right there, I have to admit that. I know I ranted above, but thats just the obligatory response from me. Now, all we need is the Dex-secondary bard build, and we really are good to go.
The PP gives the bonus to all skills not just untrained, so you'll be better than your companions who are untrained in the skill(assuming roughly the same stats), but you'll still be better when you train a skill.
-=Edit: Wait, how do you get a +4 anyways? Bard gives you +1 from skill versatility. Jack of all trades gives you +2. So that is a total of +3. With the +2 from the PP that only makes the character as good as their companions who are trained in the skill(assuming equal stats and no skill training from the companion).=-
and just to make sure we are clear... +5 trained and +2 for pp feature is +7 to trained skills compaired to +5 or 6 (if we forgot a +1) TO UNTRAINED
Wait, so we can be a bard, take Bard of all Trades, which nets us a total +4 on untrained skills. And now we can multi-class rogue, and get the Jack-of-all-trades PP, for a total of +6 to untrained skills? So I'm actually worse at trained skills than untrained? WTF, WotC, thats just a crazy combo to bring into the game. It just breaks the intentions of training skills. Just don't train the ones you want, and you're better at them. Training them inhibits you ability to use them. Really, why do we have this combo?
Actually, thats a pretty awesome character right there, I have to admit that. I know I ranted above, but thats just the obligatory response from me. Now, all we need is the Dex-secondary bard build, and we really are good to go.
The Jack of all Trades PP gives +2 to all skills, not just to untrained ones.
{Edit}
Well, during the extended period between when I typed this message and actually submitted the post, I got ninja'ed.
So just to prevent this post from being totally redundant, I'll answer this question:
Wait, how do you get a +4 anyways? Bard gives you +1 from skill versatility. Jack of all trades gives you +2. So that is a total of +3.
He said Bard of All Trades, not Jack of All Trades. Bard of All Trades gives +3 feat bonus to all untrained skills, and is (obviously) a Bard class feat. It's from the January issue of Dragon.
Wait, so we can be a bard, take Bard of all Trades, which nets us a total +4 on untrained skills. And now we can multi-class rogue, and get the Jack-of-all-trades PP, for a total of +6 to untrained skills? So I'm actually worse at trained skills than untrained? WTF, WotC, thats just a crazy combo to bring into the game. It just breaks the intentions of training skills. Just don't train the ones you want, and you're better at them. Training them inhibits you ability to use them. Really, why do we have this combo?
Actually, thats a pretty awesome character right there, I have to admit that. I know I ranted above, but thats just the obligatory response from me. Now, all we need is the Dex-secondary bard build, and we really are good to go.
The Jack of all Trades PP gives +2 to all skills, not just to untrained ones.
{Edit}
Well, during the extended period between when I typed this message and actually submitted the post, I got ninja'ed.
So just to prevent this post from being totally redundant, I'll answer this question:Wait, how do you get a +4 anyways? Bard gives you +1 from skill versatility. Jack of all trades gives you +2. So that is a total of +3.
He said Bard of All Trades, not Jack of All Trades. Bard of All Trades gives +3 feat bonus to all untrained skills, and is (obviously) a Bard class feat. It's from the January issue of Dragon.
The downside of a bard taking Jack of All Trades is that the attacks are Dex based, and a bard has no reason to pump Dex, so he's not going to hit much with the encounter or the daily. You can use Reserve Maneuver to replace the encounter power, but you're stuck with the Daily.
Like Krika said, we need a Dex secondary bard.
I think the more likely combination is a Rogue multiclassing into Bard to get access to the Bard of All Trades feat. That seems more viable than a Bard MC'ing into Rogue to get the PP, and still presents a massive skill boost.
Not as much – You don't get Skill Versatility that way. Characters wanting to max their untrained skills will do Bard –> Feat Bard of All Trades –> MC Rogue –> PPath Jack of All Trades.
I think the more likely combination is a Rogue multiclassing into Bard to get access to the Bard of All Trades feat. That seems more viable than a Bard MC'ing into Rogue to get the PP, and still presents a massive skill boost.
Not as much – You don't get Skill Versatility that way. Characters wanting to max their untrained skills will do Bard –> Feat Bard of All Trades –> MC Rogue –> PPath Jack of All Trades.
Well, while you do only get +1 over the Jack of All Trades feat, Bard of All Trades doesn't have the Int 13 pre-req, so that might be a good path for an Artful Dodger rogue. Also, the feat for bard rituals is a pretty nice one to have.
I think the more likely combination is a Rogue multiclassing into Bard to get access to the Bard of All Trades feat. That seems more viable than a Bard MC'ing into Rogue to get the PP, and still presents a massive skill boost.
Not as much – You don't get Skill Versatility that way. Characters wanting to max their untrained skills will do Bard –> Feat Bard of All Trades –> MC Rogue –> PPath Jack of All Trades.
Well, while you do only get +1 over the Jack of All Trades feat, Bard of All Trades doesn't have the Int 13 pre-req, so that might be a good path for an Artful Dodger rogue. Also, the feat for bard rituals is a pretty nice one to have.
But as a bard you may also mc into a divine class and worship Ioun, and pick the Power of Skill feat for an additional +1 to trained skills. And combined with Ioun's Revelation Divine Boon, that is an additional +2 item bonus to skills as well.
I'm actually profoundly disappointed with the hunter ranger build. It's still nowhere near possible to build a primarily melee ranger without using Str as your main attack stat. There just aren't enough Dex-based melee powers for a full build. So the hunter is stuck as an archer ranger who can fight a little bit in melee if he really has to, not a truly versatile ranged-or-melee build.
I can't say I'm profoundly disappointed, it's by far my favorite build right now, but I totally agree it could use some power support. There should be at least one power like that per level, ir order to make my current favorite class into my... eternally favorite class
A couple Dragon articles with this purpose should solve it. Thrown in some Runnin Attack support for good measure (it needs to compete with Prime Shot, after all) and I'd be ok if they never even touched the ranger ever again.
I can't say I'm profoundly disappointed, it's by far my favorite build right now, but I totally agree it could use some power support. There should be at least one power like that per level, ir order to make my current favorite class into my... eternally favorite class
A ranger paragon path with Dex-based melee powers (or at least ranged-or-melee powers, but using Dex either way) would have been nice too. That's actually the single biggest problem I have with the hunter build as it stands. Even if a hunter ranger takes every Dex-based melee power his class offers, he's still stuck with a purely ranged paragon path unless he multiclasses and takes a rogue or assassin paragon path.