Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ekko Jan 15, 2009 14:45:24	3.5 had a large amount of systems and sub-systems with their own mechanics and structures (warlocks' invocations vs. Vancian magic vs. Incarnum vs. Tome of Battle vs...). All Fourth Edition classes so far have held to the basic at-will/encounter/daily power framework. Do you think Wizards will deviate from that formula at somepoint to make completely unique classes? If so, what do you think some of the possible alternate systems would be like?
#2 doctorhook Jan 15, 2009 15:25:31	3.5 had a large amount of systems and sub-systems with their own mechanics and structures (warlocks' invocations vs. Vancian magic vs. Incarnum vs. Tome of Battle vs...). All Fourth Edition classes so far have held to the basic at-will/encounter/daily power framework. Do you think Wizards will deviate from that formula at somepoint to make completely unique classes? If so, what do you think some of the possible alternate systems would be like? Honestly, I hope they don't, and I don't think they will, at least not within 4E. Subsystems are one thing, but the mechanics of the power system are fundamental to 4E's balance; to muck with the power system is to muck directly with balance.
#3 Dragon9 Jan 15, 2009 16:45:10	Agreed... I hope they don't. They are most likely going to introduce new mechanics via class features and keywords, such as Rattling and Invigorating. I say hope because with the advent of some of these things, they're already starting to blur the lines between roles. Newer classes are starting to show strong secondary roles and some old classes are getting newer features that allow them to assume a stronger (though not as good) secondary role. For example, Rattling Rogues. They can become a pseudo-controller but end up being sucky at both roles (Controller and Striker).
#4 zeful Jan 15, 2009 18:41:05	Do you think Wizards will deviate from that formula at somepoint to make completely unique classes? No, doing so would undermine the current system.
#5 anubis_reynard Jan 15, 2009 19:32:37	There are a few interesting mechanics, though, that started with limited aplication- say, the Aftereffect line in Poisons, that become full mechanics later on. (some Primal and Bard powers) One interesting concept I ran across here on the boards, was encounter "stances" or "sustainable" powers that had a duration of "save sustains." (as opposed to save ends)
#6 salla Jan 15, 2009 19:34:24	I'll join the chorus of 'let's hope not'.
#7 doctorhook Jan 15, 2009 21:34:02	There are a few interesting mechanics, though, that started with limited aplication- say, the Aftereffect line in Poisons, that become full mechanics later on. (some Primal and Bard powers) One interesting concept I ran across here on the boards, was encounter "stances" or "sustainable" powers that had a duration of "save sustains." (as opposed to save ends) This is the kind of mechanical innovation I completely support! It's incremental change, rather than shear displacement of previous subsystems. I think there's a good chance of seeing sort of thing still more often in the future.
#8 olfactatron Jan 16, 2009 15:08:10	A number of monster powers in the MM have the after effect line. I think that is the best place to look for mechanics that haven't been implemented in PCs yet. Aura for example. Or an encounter power that recharges when you're bloodied.
#9 Stuntman Jan 16, 2009 20:36:28	There really is no need to have a totally different system for a new class. The existing system with its advancement is designed to be the framework for all classes. Having a second one would not really serve any purpose other than to complicate things. Imagine how much more complex multiclassing would be with a second system in the mix.
#10 Twiggly_the_Gnome Jan 16, 2009 23:13:13	If the Ki power source does end up killing Incarnum and taking its stuff, I could see that group of classes getting a silo of abilities that it "hangs" on item slots and follows those activation rules. That would be a nice thematic match for the Monk, since it could keep up with expected character power levels, without having to be tricked out in bling.
#11 Dragon9 Jan 16, 2009 23:16:46	That could be cool. After all, as a monk, it'd be cooler to stick with your fists. But then how do you get those magic item daily powers? Weapons are for pansies. It's much teh awesome to make a Balor cry little emo tears by pounding it with your bare hands. Bad ass fantasy MMA fighter!
#12 Alter_Boy Jan 17, 2009 14:35:38	3.5 had a large amount of systems and sub-systems with their own mechanics and structures (warlocks' invocations vs. Vancian magic vs. Incarnum vs. Tome of Battle vs...). All Fourth Edition classes so far have held to the basic at-will/encounter/daily power framework. Do you think Wizards will deviate from that formula at somepoint to make completely unique classes? If so, what do you think some of the possible alternate systems would be like? From what they've written in Wizards Presents:Races and Classes, many of the new systems were attempts to imagine what 4ed would look like. Systems like Incarnum lost and systems like Bo9s won. So I expect that, in the final years of 4ed, WotC will play around with the system to playtest for 5th Edition. Fortunately, if Bo9s and Warlocks are any indication, the new systems will be much lauded and appreciated patches to the system.
#13 eldritch_lord Jan 17, 2009 15:19:15	I'd appreciate any form of mechanical differentiation we can get; the more the designers feel free to think outside the box, the less chance there is of power creep. For instance, many posters have opined that there's some power creep in the Primal classes previewed thus far, because they have much more HP than the existing classes. However, the Primal classes don't do things the same way as the existing classes, so even though the Warden is much tougher individually than the Paladin and Fighter, he approaches defending in a different way and so is just as useful as the other defenders without being too powerful. In order to continue broadening the rules without inviting too much power creep, there will have to be new mechanics introduced eventually. The two ways to get people to buy books are "Wow, that class is much better than my current one! I need that book!" and "Wow, I couldn't do that before! I need that book!" They've done this to a limited extent with new keywords and such, but I doubt there will be any new subsystems that introduce radically different mechanics any time soon (which I'm a bit disappointed about, but that's another story). The basic 4e framework is too limited at this point to accept such subsystems--and I emphasize at this point; instead, its boundaries must be slowly and incrementally expanded to ensure that any given new mechanic doesn't upset existing balance. 4e is much more focused on cross-book inclusivity, so where in 3e you could introduce several new classes and never have them get additional support, everything in 4e will potentially receive some support in another book. Where in 3e making a binder class is just dandy, since any problems it causes interacting with other rules will be minimal, in 4e every new class may be expanded at some point and an existing balance problem would only get worse. Sorry for the long-winded response, but in 3e I really liked all the subsystems introduced in later books, so discussing their return in 4e is a favorite topic of mine. In short, it's very likely to happen, but much more gradually than it did in 3e. I'd love to see a class with something other than the at-will/encounter/daily structure, but it isn't coming for a while yet.
#14 ekko Jan 17, 2009 20:12:29	I realized I didn't throw in my two cents in the OP. I think that they might do things like classes that get more/better at-will powers instead of encounter powers or classes (like the incarnate, perhaps) that have slightly below average powers, but if you have certain combinations of powers (like parts of a set), you get a little extra bonus. Hell. maybe they'll do something like the akashic that would have their own powers, but can pick up other classes' powers later than the original classes.