Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Orzel Mar 22, 2009 1:28:39	We're at the second PHB. There are over 15 classes each with at least 2 options. Yet I feel that there are certain well known combat styles that are missing. I know that the oother power sources needed some classes and some old classes will be upgraded to 4th. 1) Damage over time. Attack. Speend the next few turns running away while the enemy slowly dies. It would have been fun to have a class or class option that focused on ongoing damage and sustained damage. A great idea for a striker. Here's hoping for it in Arcane Power. Sometimes you just wanna cast a few spells, throw a poioned dagger, and enjoy the show 2) Charging up. One of the opposites of DoT. You spend turns charging up/preparing a stronger attack. This can be anywhere from any assassin locking on a target or a spellcaster making his fireball bigger. This too would be a greate striker. A character who could make his at-will deal daily level damage instead of some bonus damage gimmick. If you don't like the idea of buffs with no attacks then... 3) Combo Attack 1 makes Attack 2 stronger. Attack 2 makes Attack 3 stronger. Attack 4? People die. There's a bunch of ways to do it. And done with each role too.
#2 Bobfred21 Mar 22, 2009 1:59:48	1. Damage over time: I like the idea, however I do not like the way you seem to want it to be implemented, to be capable of just "DoTing" someone up and running while they die is boring and probably has balance issues as most classes are balanced around how much damage they do while they can continue to attack. Another issue is that damage over time is much more to keep track of than "I use twin strike for 22 damage", and 4e is all about simplicity. Also, I don't recall which but I believe it's either a Warlock PP or a Wizard PP that can already clock off some decent DoTs, Blood Magus or something to that effect. That having been said I wouldn't mind seeing a class that focuses on damage over time effects, could even be used as a Striker's extra damage feature. 2. Charging up: Another boring mechanic. I always hated these kinds of moves, if you have to charge up a move for 1 round, two rounds or even three rounds before you can use it than it had better do however many rounds worth of damage all at once which just doesn't seem to fit to me. It's imbalanced really for a character to have that kind of burst damage. 3. Combo system: Love this idea, would love to see it implemented. However, it seems like it would be difficult to keep track of. Of all the things to keep track of in combat what happened last round or two rounds ago has always been the hardest for me and the groups I've played in. Ultimately these ideas seem like they'd be easier to implement in an MMO where a computer can track them.
#3 vaalingrade_ashland_02 Mar 22, 2009 2:08:48	Dot woudl be something like 5 ongoing damage (until 20 damage)
#4 calronmoonflower Mar 22, 2009 2:31:36	1) Damage over time. Several abilities do this. Basically any power that deal ongoing damage. Most have "Save ends". However, Vaalingrade Ashland did mention another way to do this that isn't in the system that I've seen. 2) Charging up. KA... MA... HA.. MA... HA! ;) I don't know of any of these, but if it take sonly one round it could work. 3) Combo I'm aware of at two avenger dailies that boost damage from future attacks. However, think of all the powers that would need to be sank into this to work. A few powers that boost @will abilities would work, but much beyond that would take up allot of you alloted powers. So leave it basic like boosting the next attack.
#5 Orzel Mar 22, 2009 2:55:51	Ongoing damage would be the key to the DOT. One at will cause cause weak ongoing damage. Another could be like "Hit: 1d6 + X mod damage and the target cannot roll saving throws for ongoing damage until the end of your next turn" A charge up character would work like the infernal warlock PP except he could create sparks as a minor action. Charge up/lock on/summon spirits as a minor action for X turns, then add xd10 danage to your next attack. Combo would have to work on conditions. "If the taget is prone, the target takes an additional blah damage and is dazed..." into "If the taget is dazed and marked by you, the target..."
#6 johnnii Mar 22, 2009 3:53:19	I would definetily want to see number 2 and 3 abilities for a future monk or other ki/asian martial themed class
#7 Dragoncat Mar 22, 2009 5:43:04	For number 2, you have clearly not read Doom of Delban, aka the Ion Cannon. ;) For number 3, however, it would be really nifty to use keywords to chain together different abilities. For example, let us say you have "Weapon, Ki, First Lotus" for a beginning strike. Your next power, "Weapon, Ki, Second Lotus" has Special: if, on your previous turn, you hit this target with an attack that had the First Lotus keyword, then X happens. This can be followed, perhaps, by your daily "Weapon, Ki, Final Lotus", which has Special: if, on the previous turn, you hit the target with the special condition of Second Lotus ability, then Y happens, where Y is absolutely awesome. It would take a better term than Lotus, of course. Nonetheless, it would be interesting to see other possibilities, perhaps even combining Beast, Beast Form, Rage, or Reliable keywords into chained techniques for multiclassing goodness.
#8 Marcus_Majarra Mar 22, 2009 12:20:04	I like your idea, Dragoncat, for number 3. The only big drawback I see is that this approach is too contingent on previous successes, which tends to make the latter powers of combos less likely to succeed. A good, simple combo approach would be at-will, encounter, and daily. You could have the later powers in the chain provide an extra effect plus a miss entry if you performed the previous power in the chain since the start of your previous turn. Thus, you'd start with an at-will. If you perform an adequate encounter power afterwards, the encounter power gets an added effect and a miss entry (to justify not using the encounter power earlier). Alternately, you could remove the requirement that you must hit your opponent to benefit from combo powers, and keep the hitting chances as normal. I could see this approach working very well for a ki defender and ki striker.
#9 stogoe Mar 22, 2009 12:40:19	I think if I were going to do 'combos' for a monk, I'd make a class feature that, as a minor action when you hit with a monk power, does something cool. Then I'd offer different and more powerful ones as utilities, maybe even ones that work off OAs. Like: Pressure Point Monk Class Feature You follow up your blows with a painful pinpoint strike. At-Will Minor action Effect: Use this power when you hit an enemy with a monk attack power. This power does an extra 2 damage (scaling by tier). Or something. And then you could make utilities that trip, push, daze, give basic melee attacks, etc. You could even do two different ones per round, if you traded in your move action. Man, I really like this idea.
#10 i_can_see_forever Mar 22, 2009 13:10:26	I think that any play style that requires the PC to 'do nothing' for one or more turns is probably going to be avoided by the designer. The emphasis so far has been on having something interesting for the player to do every turn, which is good since turns now take longer. Missing, say, two rounds of combat while you 'power up' could easily mean you are doing nothing for twenty minutes. The other thing about powering up is this: if you wait three rounds to power up your BFG or whatever and then MISS, wouldn't that really REALLY suck?
#11 undrave Mar 22, 2009 15:18:42	A way to do combos would be that you have one move that inflicts a condition (say slowed) then you have another move that also inflicts a condition (say weakened) HOWEVER when that second move hits someone who is already suffering from say the Slowed condition then it doesn't weakens...it dazes. and so forth and so forth. Basically you can keep using the same one or two move to escalate the condition or damage at the cost of the other depending on the situation.
#12 sigil_beguiler Mar 22, 2009 15:34:15	I would prefer that a Combo system wouldn't be tied to particular classes. I would rather see it as a additional option you can use that has a simple mechanic to work with all the classes. The DMG2 for instance could include it, perhaps divided to work differently amongst the different Powers or Roles (if based of Powers could fit into each Power book too).
#13 darotwyn_dup Mar 22, 2009 19:56:29	I can see combos being implemented through feats. Certain bonuses based on damage type or certan types of powers...say for an arcane class with different typed damages you could have something like: Fire and Ice(Combo Feat) Prerequisite: Any Arcane or Elemental Class. When you hit with a power that has the Cold keyword, and if you did fire damage on your last turn, the target automatically saves from any ongoing damage effects and is slowed (save ends). If the power would already inflict the slowed condition, or the target is already slowed, it takes a -2 penalty to saving throws agains being slowed until the condition ends. Sure, it's kind of wordy and wonky, but you get the general idea.
#14 KoboldAvenger Mar 22, 2009 19:59:39	2) Charging up. One of the opposites of DoT. You spend turns charging up/preparing a stronger attack. This can be anywhere from any assassin locking on a target or a spellcaster making his fireball bigger. This too would be a greate striker. A character who could make his at-will deal daily level damage instead of some bonus damage gimmick. If you don't like the idea of buffs with no attacks then... The Dark Warlock has a method of doing this, it's just dependent on cursing and getting attacked.
#15 angrymojo Mar 22, 2009 20:13:05	The Dark Warlock has a method of doing this, it's just dependent on cursing and getting attacked. The star warlock actually can do this. Curse stuff, kill it all at once, get a huge to hit bonus for Fate of the Void, use daily.
#16 Orzel Mar 23, 2009 3:28:56	The Dark Warlock has a method of doing this, it's just dependent on cursing and getting attacked. Dark and star pact not the same since it's not a focal point of the combat style. You have no contol over it. One of my ideas is a a replacement for Channel Divinity. Empower Appeal You can make an appeal to a divine being for power. The more you appeal, the more strength you are awarded with. Once per round as an minor action, you can make one appeal. You can store a maximum number of appeals equal to your Wisdom modifier. As a free action, you may spend a healing surge, and deal an extra 1d6 radiant damage per appeal on your next attack this turn instead of regaining hit points. If this attack hits, you appeal count becomes 0. Then there could be feats to augement the appeals. Appeal to the Raven queen: Your empowered appeal deal cold damage and the target is weakened (save ends)
#17 lady_ishtar Mar 23, 2009 9:22:06	ongoing damage is already doable. had a rogue in my game (level 12)that had two powers that dealt 17 ongoning damage, and a couple that dealt 10 ongoing damage. as for the combo powers, love the idea. i see it as at will powers building up combo points (to a maximum of 4 for example), than have the encounter and daily powers have bonus effects based on how many combo points you have. in a way that combines power up and combo building. the key to that is that combo points are based on you, not your enemies. this way you can attack some mooks to build up some combo points, then tear BBEG a new one with a boosted encounter or daily.
#18 darkdragoon Mar 23, 2009 11:15:54	1) There are several feats that add ongoing damage to powers, and things could get silly with Jagged. If anything there's a glut of auto-damage and end of encounter boosters now. 2) Interesting, but unless you power it up with actions it's probably going to get left eating dust. 3) There are Ranger powers that do this within one power (better status if all hit)+Rending Tempest, Rage again, a couple stances, and there's at least a couple PPs with this sort of idea. Rather dangerous with multihit powers and granted attacks.
#19 Ra-Tiel Mar 23, 2009 16:00:05	Regarding the "power up" thing... why not charge up the target instead of charging up the character? For example: Fire Spark - Attack 1 At Will | Arcane, Fire Standard action | Ranged 10 Target: One creature Attack: Intelligence vs. Ref Hit: 1d4 + Intelligence modifier damage. You attach one fire spark to the target that lasts for a number of rounds equal to 1 + your Wisdom modifier or until a power is used on the target that consumes them.
#20 undrave Mar 24, 2009 1:38:16	sounds like counters in TCGs >.> darn spell counters...
#21 i_can_see_forever Mar 24, 2009 2:27:24	Regarding the "power up" thing... why not charge up the target instead of charging up the character? This would allow - even require! - the character to do something every round while still giving the feel of a "charge up" combat style. Although it may fall into the "combo" style, depending on your perspective. Actually that's not a bad idea.
#22 arakis Mar 24, 2009 2:42:56	If you have read the Vestige pact, it seem to work whit a sort of combo mechanic. Each daily power-up your at-will. It's interesting.
#23 v3rlon Mar 24, 2009 5:50:54	A variation of taunt effect - Does 1W+1D6 in round 1, and then stacks up (+1D6 or +1W) every round the monster attacks someone other than the taunter. There is a charge up I could like. Also, attacks that take multiple actions (i.e. this attack costs SA + MvA or SA + MinorA, or even 2 SA via action points) Attacks designed to combo with other classes - could build a whole class around this
#24 v3rlon Mar 24, 2009 6:29:11	Another idea would be an attack that forces the target to burn an action to end or that causes damage if they use an action. Ninja Caltrops: do 1D6 damage and slow target if they use a move action that does not havethe teleport keyword. Molotov Cocktail: does 1d4 damage + 1d6 fire damage every round until target spends a move action to 'stop, drop, and roll.' Note the target will be prone after this. Mindmaze: (int vs will): target is distracted by a mental maze and -2 to all checks until they spend a standard action to complete the maze. Not suggesting these as actual powers/text, just showing the concept.
#25 SongSooGumbup Mar 24, 2009 12:03:19	My human warlord already has a great combo that I use for big fights. I start with wolf pack tactics to get combat advantage and a +2 to attack. I then spend an action point to get my action action surge and a +5 to my next attack. I strike with lead the attack so that the rest of the party gets attack bonuses against the enemy for the rest of the encounter. This is a little different than what everyone is suggesting, but it follows the same formula (in fact all leaders follow this formula). If I hit with power X, then my teammate will have a bonus when they use power Y. Now, this might not translate directly into a damage bonus as most are suggesting, but an increased chance to hit indirectly translates to a damage bonus via higher average damage. As for the other suggestions, DOT's exist as ongoing damage and I personally don't like the idea of charging abilities. I can see where some would like to change DOT's to be more like Vaal suggested, but that means monsters can do that to you too. It's frustrating when you get hit with an ongoing 5 and you realize you only have 3 hit points left; you know that unless someone heals you or gives you a chance to save before your next turn starts that you're going down. Now change that to ongoing 5 until 20, no saves, no heal checks, unavoidable 20 coming your way. This is when players toss up their arms and say, "poke me with a fork, I'm done." The reason I don't like charging abilities is that it hampers team dynamics if it is done any more than it already exists. I mean, a rogue might use a less effective attack or none at all for a round as he or she tries to get combat advantage (the rogue might not attack to get total concealment), but to have one party member sit out a couple of rounds to prepare a super nova while the rest of the party tries to protect his/her bacon can be taxing on team dynamics. Sure it can make for some dramatic effects and tension. It happens all the time in movies. In movies, however, usually the only thing that has any effect at all is the big super nova ability. The group futilely tries to hold back an unstoppable foe while the key member prepares only to get the ability off at the last second. If instead, the group is slowly chiseling down some monster while one party member sits back and chants only to come in and ninja kill the baddie shortly before the others get to, I think some party members might get a bit upset. These are just some thoughts. I do like this discussion.
#26 Orzel Mar 25, 2009 0:17:17	An another idea for combo to go with the ol' elemental combos. Water + Electricity Fuel + Fire Drenching Blast Encounter | Arcane, Implement Standard action | Ranged 10 Target: One creature Attack: Intelligence vs. Ref Hit: 1d6 + Intelligence modifier damage and until the end of your next turn, if the target is hit with a power with certain keyword, the power gains a special effect. Cold: The target is immobilized (save ends) Fire: The target gains a -2 penalty to all defenes (save ends) Lightning: The target takes an extra 2d6 lightning damage Dangerous Fumes Daily | Arcane, Implement, Poison, Zone Standard action | Area burst 2 with 10 square Effect: This spell creates a zone of deadly gas that least until end of turn. Creatures that enter or start their turn in the zone are deal 2d8 poison damage. You can move the cloud 4 squares as a move action. Special: If any creature or object within the zone is hit with a power with the fire, lightning, or radiant keyword, make a attack, the zone ends, and you cannnot sustain it. Target: All creatures with the zone B]Attack: [/b]Intelligence vs. Ref Hit: 5d6 + Intelligence modifier fire damage, 5 ongoing damage, and the target is pushed 2 squares. Sustian minor: the zone persists.