Cue speculation on other ki classes / mechanics.
Tho really, samurai is just a fighter and ninja is just a rogue.
Other asian types, probably?
Tho really, samurai is just a fighter and ninja is just a rogue.
No, no, NO!
Sometimes I don't know why I still bother to reiterate this, but here I go one more time.
Fighters make passable mundane/historical samurai, but in fantasy setting a samurai is no more a fighter with different flavor then a paladin is. The same goes for ninja. Rogue may be fine for now, but something more is desirable to capture the true scope of a fantasy ninja (though I'd personal put fantasy ninjas in the shadow power source).
I know that some people get on this big obsession that making classes for Asian archetypes is somehow racist, but personally I find it even more racist to try and sub-categorize all the Asian archetypes under existing classes while European archetypes (such as the paladin) get to have their own classes with hardly any one thinking twice about it.[/rant]
That being said, any "Oriental Adventures" type book would mostly be a fluff book. Most likely it would be similar to the Manual of the Planes, with some maps and fluff stuff, some Oriental themed monsters, and maybe a few paragon paths. At best it could be as expanded as a campaign setting (possibly a Rokugan campaign setting book?). But don't expect any new core classes in it. Wizards has already stated that any such book would be printed after all of the Kai classes are released.
I think Monk will be Ki Defender, minoring in striker. Ninja might be a Ki Striker, and Wu Jen will be the Ki Controller.
I guess, in a way, Samurai could either be a Ki Leader or a Ki Defender.
Samurai may be a (Ki Defender)/Fighter PAragon path if it appears at all, is easily duplicated by a fighter/ranger or tempest fighter.
Ninja is more likely in the Shadow source ( the more real life mystical ninja)
Wu Jen was made up in the first place, hopefully won't show up again.
Incarnum I am hoping to be striped and flogged into Ki.
Onmyouji: Ki Leader? I can only hope.
The one thing that we can be sure of is that no ki class will have a "difficult" Asian name or be aimed at replicating a specific anime series. ;)
Please post a link...
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insidernews/20090211
Bill also stated that we get a playtest monk in May. Hopefully it's the 30 level version like the Barbarian.
I'm of the opinion that it's gotta be a Ki Striker. We are talking Kung Fu and all that jazz after all.
Samari Ki Leader...Kinda like a mix of warlord and paliden
one build secondary defender, and one build secondary Striker
Bill also stated that we get a playtest monk in May. Hopefully it's the 30 level version like the Barbarian.
It's a playtest, so it should be levels 1-30. I personally hope though that it will be different from the Artificer and the Barbarian play tests. I don;t want to see only one complete build; I want to see half of both builds. That would give us a better overview of the class as a whole, lead to more playtest options/diversity, and ultimately I believe that it would allow for better feedback. It's not what I expect to get, but it's what I hope for. So please, if any one from WotC is reading this, give this idea some thought.
I am hopeing for:
Samari Ki Leader...Kinda like a mix of warlord and paliden
one build secondary defender, and one build secondary Striker
I could be fine with that. Though my hope is for Defender primary role, with Controller and Striker as secondary roles. My reasoning being that Samurai of almost all varieties are characterized as protectors in most fictions, however, the unarmored quick killer variety in a lot of current pop-fiction are not particularly leader like. I then go with Controller as the other sub-role because I'd like to see the armored variant to be of a similar flavor to classic D&D samurai interpretations by using 'shouts' as multi target fear effects, though I 'd be fine with a sub-leader instead.
The monk, I'd understand if it was delegated to "asian". The concept has roots in many lands in south and east asia. But may I politely ask to stop referring to culture icons of Japan as "asian"? It neglects the existence of other countries.
Thank you very much.
On-topic:
I would dearly love to see the monk as a ki controller, though that's probably wishful thinking. More likely we'll see it as a striker. The ninja could work as a ki striker as well.
How about the samurai as defenders? Or will that step on the fighter's toes too much?
I find it amusing how a lot of people seem to think that samurai and ninja are what encompasses the "asian" adjective. Our continent is not composed of just Japan.
The monk, I'd understand if it was delegated to "asian". The concept has roots in many lands in south and east asia. But may I politely ask to stop referring to culture icons of Japan as "asian"? It neglects the existence of other countries.
Thank you very much.
isn't japan part of asia...and as such icons of japans are icons of asia...the reverse may not be true thoug...something asian is not by defualt japan...but japan is asian...
Woo, I finally get to rebuild my monk from another game.Oh by the by, I would think the monk is more a striker than defender, and it would have a build that is either sub defender or sub leader. Ninja's are monks with different training IMO, and I can definitely see a Samurai in the role of Leader/defender.
Samurai will be a Ki Defender role
Monks will be a Ki Striker (though i tried to experiment with a Ki Controller for them* mostly by being very agile and doin a lot of immobilizing and prone attacks stuff to hinder opponents movements and things jsut to try it)
Ninjas i can see being a part of the shadow power source though if they were in Ki i would have to say striker as well.
Shugenja would fill the Controller role
and Sohei could pull off the leader role though it would be a little more towards a defender as well though i could see it.
Wu Gen was a made up thing i dont see them bringing back
isn't japan part of asia...and as such icons of japans are icons of asia...the reverse may not be true thoug...something asian is not by defualt japan...but japan is asian...
I would rather not dwell on this, but I suppose one more clarificatory post is in order. You are correct that all things Japanese are also asian. What I am against, however, is the misconception that ki=asian. For example, we here in the Philippines would have a fantasy setting that would cater more to the Primal power source, and yet we do not associate Primal with Asian.
So, my request is for us to discuss the Ki power source, not a catch-all "Asian" power source. I hope people understand how offensive these things could be.
As for other classes, I have been swayed by the Historical vs Fantasy Samurai thing, and thus, Samurai is looking like a serious contender for Ki Defender, though I would have liked it better to have a different name (as I would have preferred for Monk, but oh well). Sohei, even, would be acceptable to me, but now that I think about it, that will probably be a paragon path for monks or something like that.
For the controller, I'm expecting a Geomancer, you know, Feng Shui and all. Heavy into area denial/zones and whatnot.
Leaderwise, I'm foreseeing something with aura effects, either as class features, or built into powers like Barbarian Rage or Warden Shapechanging. I'm guessing (wildly, mind you) that it will be called something like Avatar.
I suppose if the ki guys kill the Incarnum guys and take their stuff, it would make for an interesting fluff. I do hope I don't see rules as jumbled as 3.5 Incarnum again, though. @__@
I wish I could find the source again, but long ago, Monk was confirmed as a Ki Striker.
As for other classes, I have been swayed by the Historical vs Fantasy Samurai thing, and thus, Samurai is looking like a serious contender for Ki Defender, though I would have liked it better to have a different name (as I would have preferred for Monk, but oh well). Sohei, even, would be acceptable to me, but now that I think about it, that will probably be a paragon path for monks or something like that.
For the controller, I'm expecting a Geomancer, you know, Feng Shui and all. Heavy into area denial/zones and whatnot.
Leaderwise, I'm foreseeing something with aura effects, either as class features, or built into powers like Barbarian Rage or Warden Shapechanging. I'm guessing (wildly, mind you) that it will be called something like Avatar.
Of course, until we saw the preview the Sorcerer was "confirmed" to be a Controller, so we won't know for sure. Things might have changed since then.
Still, Striker seems to make the most sense for a Monk's role, though a case could be made for Defender as well. I'd guess that monk implements (whether they're beads, wraps, or something else) will carry weapon properties that are infused into his fists, which deal enhanced damage which may or may not scale with level.
As for which two "builds" of Monk will be represented, I'd guess as follows:
- STR/WIS "striking" build which serves as a secondary Defender and focuses on striking down single enemies with flurry attacks, stunning blows, and such.
- DEX/WIS "throwing" build which serves as a secondary Controller and focuses on defense, incorporating some of the stuff from the Setting Sun discipline from Tome of Battle.
A third build could be a 'ki-blasting' build focusing on DBZ-style ranged ki attacks (and a greater emphasis on WIS), but that would probably be reserved for the Ki Power book.
As for the Ki power source, I also don't want it to be the catch-all power source for any class with an Asian title, but as we have the Kensai Martial Paragon Path, I have hope that it won't be.
As for other Asian classes, I could see:
-Ninja = Shadow Striker (of course there are a million ways to go with the ninja)
-Shugenja = Elemental Leader
-Sohei = Ki Defender
-Wu-Jen = Elemental Controller
I don't want to touch the samurai, Martial or Ki power source, is he an archer (ranged defender?), is he an Iiajutsu (sp?) master (striker?), commander of the field (leader?) he is so many things!
…The ninja too.
I kind of suspect that the whole Ki power source may minor in striker.
I actually hope for a Ronin. From fantasy, not from real life. Guy with no armor at all, and a katana.
I kind of suspect that the whole Ki power source may minor in striker.
You're thinking Toshiru Mifune in "Yojimbo", I take it?
You're thinking Toshiru Mifune in "Yojimbo", I take it?
Or Ogami Ito (Lone Wolf & Cub), he's seriously bad-ass!
I actually hope for a Ronin. From fantasy, not from real life. Guy with no armor at all, and a katana.
I kind of suspect that the whole Ki power source may minor in striker.
That's sort of how I see a Ki Defender class (Samurai?) working; a cloth armor-wearing defender class focusing on swords, spears, and polearms. Basically, a monk with weapons (sort of like the swordsage or the Shou Disciple prestige class from 3.5e), inspired by all those samurai and wuxia films and anime, which can pull off some over-the-top stunts.
I'm going to guess that light armor and mobility will be a common feature for all the ki classes (like how primal classes are highly durable and arcane classes dabble in control).
I'm going to guess that light armor and mobility will be a common feature for all the ki classes (like how primal classes are highly durable and arcane classes dabble in control).
I think you're on the money, but what I'm really curious about is to how a Ki Controller would work out (and what would it be called)?
So when thinking "is this class a Ki class", just replace the word Ki with Soul. Does a Ninja sound like a Soul or Shadow powersource? How about the Samurai, Soul or Martial?
The Monk, the question asked was "Martial Striker" and the official answer was "thats half right". I think its 99% likely we got a Ki Striker there.
The Ninja - Historically, they actively sought to create a mystical, other-world power and mystery about themselves. Deception was very much a big trick of the trade for a ninja. We know ofcourse that they couldnt really teleport, turn invisible or run across water in real life, but this cool mythological view of the ninja could probably justifiy translating into its own Shadow class. Ninja have a very heavy magic feel to them..... "Ninja Vanish!"
The Samurai, theres no real historical reason for Samurai to have the Ki powersource. They didnt have any mystical inner powers and never purported to. And if you strip away a Samurai's code of honour, loyalty to their Lord, seppuku ritual, and social standing as the warrior caste, you're basically left with a extremely well trained and disciplined ~Martial~ warrior. Does this justify a whole new class...I dunno, I think you'd struggle to fill 30 levels of powers, this looks more like a Fighter + fluff + Samurai Paragon Path + Katana.
I admit it does seem a little bland and kind of "shortchanging" the Samurai, but its also good in that it means all Samurai ingame would have to be level 11+. So no Samurai getting slain by a mere kobold.
Considering Samurai were for the most part all about serving and "defending" their Daimyo/Lord, and they were heavily armoured in the DnD sense (equivalent to Scale?), Defender seems like the logical role, be it a new class or paragon path.
/End Pure Speculation
Yeah, the Monk is all but confirmed as a Ki Striker (but not totally).
For people looking for confirmation of this, it was in Races and Classes.
As for other Asian classes, I could see:
-Ninja = Shadow Striker (of course there are a million ways to go with the ninja)
-Shugenja = Elemental Leader
-Sohei = Ki Defender
-Wu-Jen = Elemental Controller
I'd have to agree with most of this, except that in 3.5, we saw the ninja as a class that specifically mentioned "Ki" in its powers. I know we can't count that as canon for 4e, but it might be a point in the right direction.
Sohei, if it is used, will almost certainly be a defender. Lest anyone forget, the class SPECIFICALLY MENTIONS them being Temple/Monastery Guards. Also, they shrug off a certain amount of damage. They're guardsmen, how do you see a class role other than defender?
Shugenja, while ASIAN, does not seem ki, so I am with you and everyone else who said that elemental is more likely. I mean, Kensai is an asian themed concept anyway, and it's core.
Wu Jen, if done (which, according to a quick search through a couple of search engines, only turns up D&D results) might not be elemental actually. I say this because D&D Cosmology uses Western ideas about elements (Air, Water, Fire, Earth), whereas Wu Jen's connection to elements includes 5 elements, which, as I recall, are Metal, Wood, Earth, Fire, and Water. I don't see them including it as Elemental power source, but neither does it seem very 'ki'. I don't think we'll see it at all.
I don't want to touch the samurai, Martial or Ki power source, is he an archer (ranged defender?), is he an Iiajutsu (sp?) master (striker?), commander of the field (leader?) he is so many things!
Wow, one of the few people to envision a samurai as anything other than a 2 weapon fighter! Personally the Complete Warrior's version of the samurai disgusted me greatly. The concept of 2-sword fighting was unusual, developed by Miyamoto Musashi in Niten'ichi (Two Swords Falling From Heaven). Most, if not all fighting styles with a katana involve wielding the blade in both hands. The wakizashi is referred to in many Western translations as the honor blade, which isn't too far off the mark, but it was rarely itself used in combat, other than niten'ichi style.
Samurai were also archers from horseback, a combat role that is most often overlooked in fantasy gaming, and ironically, the one that is most widely accurate as far as real-world history. I think the Commander of the field aspect, however, is completely and totally covered by the tactical warlord, just give a samurai flavoring to the character's background.
…The ninja too.
Including simply a disgruntled peasant wielding farming implements as weapons to kill their lord and destroy some or all of his home.:P
Considering Samurai were for the most part all about serving and "defending" their Daimyo/Lord, and they were heavily armoured in the DnD sense (equivalent to Scale?), Defender seems like the logical role, be it a new class or paragon path.
/End Pure Speculation
Check out my thread on the Equipment forum about Oriental Weapon flavoring. I haven't had enough input and I'd love some more. Just a re-flavoring of current equipment (no need to change rules completely, especially when so many weapon types are so similar).
I would rather not dwell on this, but I suppose one more clarificatory post is in order. You are correct that all things Japanese are also asian. What I am against, however, is the misconception that ki=asian. For example, we here in the Philippines would have a fantasy setting that would cater more to the Primal power source, and yet we do not associate Primal with Asian.
So, my request is for us to discuss the Ki power source, not a catch-all "Asian" power source. I hope people understand how offensive these things could be.
in that case I appologize, becuse I miss understood you, and I agree with you 100%...sorry
But a monk could be any school of mystical to martial practice that the character derives his power from. One type of character to consider is the Sword Saint style of wondering hero. He could have Ki/Monkish abilities and still make for a great heroic defender.
What about the mystical priests/monks who banish evil spirits and put of talismans to keep evil at bay? Cures the spirit of harm and ill while bringing calm and strength to others?
And the Ninja, is very much a mix of stories. One one level they are indeed the Rogue but they're also part illusionist, part elemental master, or maybe even a Ki master of control and dirty tricks.
Either way. If Psionics and Ki are in the PHB3...and the two Gith races that utilize these powers. Man, PHB3 is going to be my book!
1.) I'd have to agree with most of this, except that in 3.5, we saw the ninja as a class that specifically mentioned "Ki" in its powers. I know we can't count that as canon for 4e, but it might be a point in the right direction.
2.) Wu Jen, if done (which, according to a quick search through a couple of search engines, only turns up D&D results) might not be elemental actually. I say this because D&D Cosmology uses Western ideas about elements (Air, Water, Fire, Earth), whereas Wu Jen's connection to elements includes 5 elements, which, as I recall, are Metal, Wood, Earth, Fire, and Water. I don't see them including it as Elemental power source, but neither does it seem very 'ki'. I don't think we'll see it at all.
3.) Personally the Complete Warrior's version of the samurai disgusted me greatly.
4.) Including simply a disgruntled peasant wielding farming implements as weapons to kill their lord and destroy some or all of his home.:P
1.) Very true, there is precedent (bit of legacy).
2.) But if I recall they specifically mentioned the Wu-Jen class in Races and Classes? How do you feel about the idea of a Geomancer as an Elemental Controller?
3.) Yeah, we don't talk about that…
4.) Commoner power source for the Ninja!
By the way, like the way you think, Chiba
But a monk could be any school of mystical to martial practice that the character derives his power from. One type of character to consider is the Sword Saint style of wondering hero. He could have Ki/Monkish abilities and still make for a great heroic defender.
Umm...Kensai is already a Paragon Path. You do know Kensai MEANS Sword-Saint, right?
1.) Very true, there is precedent (bit of legacy).
I shudder to think that it is a possibility that we'll see it at all. I'm sick of ninjas, myself. But I understand not everyone feels this way.
2.) But if I recall they specifically mentioned the Wu-Jen class in Races and Classes? How do you feel about the idea of a Geomancer as an Elemental Controller?
Geomancer as the name implies? Liek someone who draws power from earth-related effects? Or geomancer like the PrCs were done in 3.x as a guy who blends magical styles and in the process accets seemingly random animal traits? If it's the latter, no. The former...I guess I would have to withhold judgement until I saw some design concepts.
3.) Yeah, we don't talk about that…
4.) Commoner power source for the Ninja!
Joe Wood, ninja!
Kudos if you get the reference.
By the way, like the way you think, Chiba
Me too, lol. ;)
1.) I shudder to think that it is a possibility that we'll see it at all. I'm sick of ninjas, myself. But I understand not everyone feels this way.
2.) Geomancer as the name implies? Liek someone who draws power from earth-related effects?
3.) Joe Wood, ninja!
Kudos if you get the reference.
4.) Me too, lol. ;)
1.) Me too, I had my fill when I was a wee lad on Maui in the early/mid 80's.
2.) Yeah, someone mentioned that Avatar animated series (I've seen it once, but don't know enough to comment)?
3.) I fail, hip me! ...Unless you mean the baseball player?
4.) We got that kinda, Chiba, Chiba, space cowboy vibe! Your turn to get the reference.
Honestly, Wizards shot themselves in the foot by calling the power source Ki, since the word itself has such strong asian connotations of Japanese Ki and Chinese Chi. Perhaps they should have thought of a better name to avoid it being pigeonholed the "asian" power source. They should have just called it the more generic "Soul".
I think they probably wanted to call it "Soul", but then there would be the problem of a bunch of people associating the classes with Gladys Knight, Aretha Franklin and Martin Gaye. Some people would be arguing about how motown those classes would be or not, and about the "blackness" of soul classes (even though there are non-blacks who did make Soul music too). In fact I'm sure someone made a song entitled, "Soul Defender".
I think they probably wanted to call it "Soul", but then there would be the problem of a bunch of people associating the classes with Gladys Knight, Aretha Franklin and Martin Gaye. Some people would be arguing about how motown those classes would be or not, and about the "blackness" of soul classes (even though there are non-blacks who did make Soul music too).
Ha ha, so Aretha Franklin would have been the Queen of the power source!
Ha ha, so Aretha Franklin would have been the Queen of the power source!
1. Ki shouldn't just be the asian power source.
2. That means that Ki shouldn't just cover asian tropes.
3. Anything that is traditionally an asian trope is permanently an asian trope, so concepts like ninjas, monks, and samurai are asian even though they've been coopted by western culture.
4. Therefore something has to be added to Ki to make it into something that isn't just asian.
5. Unfortunately our previous definitions define everything traditionally Ki as an asian trope, so you can't just have non asian themed monks, ninja and samurai. We defined those as asian. No takesies backsies.
6. So the Ki power source has to have things in it that aren't Ki.
7. Incarnum!
Each step sort of makes sense on its own, but...
I think they probably wanted to call it "Soul", but then there would be the problem of a bunch of people associating the classes with Gladys Knight, Aretha Franklin and Martin Gaye. Some people would be arguing about how motown those classes would be or not, and about the "blackness" of soul classes (even though there are non-blacks who did make Soul music too). In fact I'm sure someone made a song entitled, "Soul Defender".
"What we need is...
...SOUL POWA!"
(James Brown, Soul Defender)
Geomancer as the name implies? Liek someone who draws power from earth-related effects? Or geomancer like the PrCs were done in 3.x as a guy who blends magical styles and in the process accets seemingly random animal traits? If it's the latter, no. The former...I guess I would have to withhold judgement until I saw some design concepts.
Geomancer was my suggestion, and I meant it in the traditional sense of someone who uses locational magic. Ley Lines and places of power and Ki flow and whatnot. I meant it as a practicioner of Feng Shui, someone who can cleanse, taint, command, etc., based on manipulation of locational energy flow.
Of course, I just looked up more about Feng Shui to find a reference to it being geomancy and only found the line: "Many western enthusiasts have incorrectly interpreted Feng Shui as a form of geomancy..." so now I feel silly. Of course, that doesn't mean WotC won't still call it geomancy.
Avatar was also my idea, and at this point, think it would have little, if anything, to do with the cartoon. They would probably be more Elemental or just folded into Monk, if anything. I mean it more like an Avatar of Ki, someone who exudes energy. Someone with a focus on Aura powers.
I won't be too happy if they ninja is shadow power source. It doesn't make sense to have a power source and several classes with a distinctly Japanese feel but then take
an iconic Japanese archetype and make it a different power source. Besides, why would ninja draw their power from the Shadowfell?
The Shadow striker should totally be the Shadowdancer. Makes way more sense.
Oh yeah....and I hope that Incarnum NEVER comes back. Worst supplement ever, in fluff and mechanics. (This only my opinion...My best friend loved Incarnum for reason unknown to me)
I can't wait for the monk and think that the ki power source works for a soft fist style unarmed attack. As for other classes, if I want to play a sneaky guy who does a ton of damage using just his wits and natural ability I'll play a rogue, or if I wanted to play swordsman who stands in the front with his special sword and keeps enemies off his friends I'll play a fighter, ranger, or warlord. I do hope, however, that WotC makes a ninja and samurai classes with new mechanics (not just fluff) that I can associate with my perception of the characters. This is why I think that the ninja should be a shadow striker that calls upon powers from the shadowfell to vanish "like a ghost," then, upon striking the enemy, channel the enemy's spirit back to the shadowfell, causing more damage. He or she could also use shadow energy to make multiple images of him/herself (shadow clones) to confuse the enemy.
The samurai is an interesting class since I can see ways to reflavor fighter, ranger, and warlord to match what people suggest. While discussing the samurai with my brother, he suggested that many fantasy type samurai could actually be controllers. Since then, I've latched onto the idea. I see the samurai as a class that can attack multiple enemies at once. He or she might use iaijustu (the fighting style of rapidly drawing the sword) to quickly kill all the surrounding enemies in a close burst attack, ki-ken to charge his sword with soul energy and project that energy in a ranged attack that works like a wall, ki-ken-tai to use his spirit to teleport along a straight line and attack multiple targets in that line, or he or she could just charge his/her shouts with ki to create a kiai that causes status effects to enemies within the blast.
On a side note, I totally see where Beej is coming from. I was researching less known mythology for some campaign ideas and looked into Philippine traditions since my wife was born in Olongapo city. Most of the stories where either primal type or shadow (they'd make some great material for a campaign where the shadowfell and feywild have melded together). My personal favorite was the tikbalang. It seemed like most of the traditions were about getting you lost in the rain forests though, once you were there, you were eaten by undead babies.
So, are we some what certain that the ki power source will be a highlight of the PHB III? If so, then I'm game. Much of the speculation I've seen seems to suggest that many things are set in stone, but I was under the impression that even play tests are used to get players' opinions and make more tweaks to a class. I was even under the impression that the developers read the boards and that my opinion might help shape the final outcome. That being said, I'll restate some things I've said before.
No we are sure that Ki will be in PHB III and will be Ki. Everything else is up in the air as to whether it will be 4/2/2 or 4/4 And who gets what kinda of focus. My money is on a 4/4 to get to power books/year, but It could also be setup differently and still work.
I'd like to add that I myself associate Asians with primal... i'm really who hasn't seen Reon Kaneda or Hiruma Aki
Me, for one.
It seems everyone expects the ki source to have things like ninja, samurai, etc. What if WotC is actually going to create entirely new classes? The monk to me seems like it would just round out the fan service of bringing back the 3.5 core classes. After that they're off the hook to actually try something new. Now the ki source itself, if interpreted as many think of ki, is likely to have many similar themed elements to the "asian" classes that seem to have been dubbed as catchalls for the ki source. The power of the soul could go in interesting directions, ones tailor made for the source rather than trying to find odd bits of fluff to interpret Samurai or whatever as tied to a "ki" power source. As much as some people may want the "asian" core classes, its entirely a real possibility that they wont get them except perhaps in some feats and paragon paths.
Could be, could be. We don't know, it's all speculation at this point. It may be a case where you can merely put whatever tag you want on your character, regardless of the class (I've built a ranger who is a gladiator, and another who's a bounty hunter; you may be able to have a character who calls himself a Samurai and has another name in the 'class' entry).
Ultimately, it will be what WotC decides they want it to be.
While that is interesting from the perspective of looking at how to build a given character, it isn't interesting from a game design standpoint.
The Ki power source, and everything attached to it, needs to be distinctly not-Martial in order for this whole thing to work.
It seems everyone expects the ki source to have things like ninja, samurai, etc. What if WotC is actually going to create entirely new classes? The monk to me seems like it would just round out the fan service of bringing back the 3.5 core classes. After that they're off the hook to actually try something new. Now the ki source itself, if interpreted as many think of ki, may have a few similar themed elements to the "asian" classes that seem to have been dubbed as catchalls for the ki source. But he power of the soul could go in interesting directions, ones tailor made for the source rather than trying to find odd bits of fluff to interpret Samurai or whatever as tied to a "ki" power source. As much as some people may want the "asian" core classes, its entirely a real possibility that they wont get them except perhaps in some feats and paragon paths.
I agree and hope that the ki source has several new classes that aren't at all based on kung-fu movies and anime. I want something new that changes how I see the power source. The problem is that I like my idea for the samurai (I'm a little biased in my opinion since it is mine) and I can't think of another power source it would fit into. That being said, monk and samurai are the only traditional classes I think should be in the ki power source. Move the ninja to shadow and make room for new stuff. I'd even let you move the samurai if you could tell me what power source better fits my mechanical description of the melee controller. I've thought about making it martial, but that seems far fetched for the ki-ken, ki-ken-tai, and kiai abilities.
(I'm not especially worked up; I just like things to be fair. The concept of "Ki" definitely doesn't represent all asian cultures, and so I think that "Ki" ought not to be associated specifically with asian concepts. Hence, I like the idea of "asian classes" across several power sources.)
Easy examples, IMHO, of unique "asian classes" are Monks (Ki) and Ninjas (Shadow). It's definitely true that certain other classes, Martial ones in particular, are a good fit for some types of those characters, but not necessarily. For example, a ninja (Rogue) who is a master of espionage and covert martial maneuvers is clearly a different sort of character from a ninja (Shadow Striker) who can mystically become insubstantial or turn into a pure shadow-form.
on the classes from 3e's Oriental Adventures and other Oriental/Japanese classes.Ninja - probably Shadow Striker, via the killing and looting of the Shadow Dancer.
Samurai - Probably Ki defender
Sohei - Probably gone, although may end up as a Ki class
Shugenja - Elemental Leader
Wu Jen - Elemental Controller
As for PHB3 speculation, my money is on Psionic 4/Shadow 2/Ki 2
Psion - Psionic Controller
Psiknife - Psionic Striker
Ardent - Psionic Leader
Unknown - Something new, possibly another Controller (Wilder) or Leader
Necromancer - Shadow Leader
Ninja - Shadow Striker
Monk - Ki Striker
Incarnate - Ki Leader
And finally, the Ki power source as I hope it will be:
Monk - Ki Striker
Samurai or Sohei - Ki Defender or Leader
Soulborn - Whichever Samurai/Sohei isn't, possibly both will be Defenders
Incarnate - Ki Leader
Also, I'm hoping that the Monk has two builds - the Unarmed Striker from 3e, and a Weapon-wielder like everyone else has been saying they think the Defender should be.
On a more serious note, Monks might get their power from the Soul, but do they have the Funk? I don't think so...
*Sudden visual of monks With huge afros boogying down tha street and kicking butt to the theme music of some George Clinton.*
Here's my
Ninja - probably Shadow Striker, via the killing and looting of the Shadow Dancer.
Samurai - Probably Ki defender
Sohei - Probably gone, although may end up as a Ki class
Shugenja - Elemental Leader
Wu Jen - Elemental Controller
Thing is, though, if we look to pre-existing precedents, Sohei was one of only 3 classes in 3.x that specifically mentioned ki at all. And they were, by definition guardians. So Sohei almost makes more sense for a ki defender than samurai.
As for PHB3 speculation, my money is on Psionic 4/Shadow 2/Ki 2
Psion - Psionic Controller
Psiknife - Psionic Striker
Ardent - Psionic Leader
Unknown - Something new, possibly another Controller (Wilder) or Leader
Ardent was a stupid class that was a thinly veiled excuse to make a "psionic cleric".
Necromancer - Shadow Leader
Ninja - Shadow Striker
Monk - Ki Striker
Incarnate - Ki Leader
I don't want to see necromancer as a core class. Evil characters are not supported by Core assumptions, as noted by the lack of information about evil deities (and the fact that the PHB doesn't even mention one of the more powerful evil deities, whereas the DMG does), no feats to support worshipers of evil deities, and lack of rules regarding how players can achieve acts of evil that NPCs already can, such as creation of undead. Creation of undead has always been an evil act, even when "negative energy" wasn't always evil by itself (such as the inflict spells in 3.x, no evil descriptor). Currently, no classes have alignment limitations, so the classes have to be built in such a manner as to account for a member of that class potentially being from any alignment. How can you really portray a Good-aligned necromancer?
I agree with TheLoneCleric that Incarnum, while kind of interesting, was flawed beyond belief, and not really balanced for synergy with core rules. Same with the Tome of Magic. That stuff was when 3.5 Jumped the Shark.
And finally, the Ki power source as I hope it will be:
Monk - Ki Striker
Samurai or Sohei - Ki Defender or Leader
Soulborn - Whichever Samurai/Sohei isn't, possibly both will be Defenders
Incarnate - Ki Leader
Also, I'm hoping that the Monk has two builds - the Unarmed Striker from 3e, and a Weapon-wielder like everyone else has been saying they think the Defender should be.
Except that the monk has all but been confirmed as a striker, and NOT a defender. One of the devs (I think Mike Mearls?) was quoted when questioned if monk would be a Martial Striker. He said "You're half right". WotC has also stated they are done with Martial classes, and that monk will be ki. Where does that leave us?
EDIT: Better yet, a link
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=17840693#post17840693
I don't want to see necromancer as a core class. Evil characters are not supported by Core assumptions, as noted by the lack of information about evil deities (and the fact that the PHB doesn't even mention one of the more powerful evil deities, whereas the DMG does), no feats to support worshipers of evil deities, and lack of rules regarding how players can achieve acts of evil that NPCs already can, such as creation of undead. Creation of undead has always been an evil act, even when "negative energy" wasn't always evil by itself (such as the inflict spells in 3.x, no evil descriptor). Currently, no classes have alignment limitations, so the classes have to be built in such a manner as to account for a member of that class potentially being from any alignment. How can you really portray a Good-aligned necromancer?
1) Use the bodies of willing crusaders who want to fight evil even after death.
2) Redeem the wicked dead by animating their bodies and forcing/allowing them to do good.
3) Accept that dead bodies are objects and animating objects is not evil.
4) Reflavor the undead into constructs of some kind (presumably made of shadowstuff).
There are hundreds of ways. I honestly never understood why undead were evil. I've always used undead as neutral. In my games, the most common use for undead is as a labor force. Zombies have always been crap in combat, so what are they good for? Lifting, carrying, dragging, etc.: any unskilled tasks that normal people don't want to do.
Thing is, though, if we look to pre-existing precedents, Sohei was one of only 3 classes in 3.x that specifically mentioned ki at all. And they were, by definition guardians. So Sohei almost makes more sense for a ki defender than samurai.
The Sohei is only recognizable to those of us with Oriental Adventures, which I believe to be a small portion of all DnD players. The Samurai is a much more visible name for a Ki Defender, so I believe that to the most likely name for one if it shows up (assuming it's not the Soulborn).
Ardent was a stupid class that was a thinly veiled excuse to make a "psionic cleric".
I won't disagree with this, but it's the only name we have right now for a Psionic Leader. I'm not pushing for these names, exactly - I'm just using whatever's readily available.
I don't want to see necromancer as a core class. Evil characters are not supported by Core assumptions, as noted by the lack of information about evil deities (and the fact that the PHB doesn't even mention one of the more powerful evil deities, whereas the DMG does), no feats to support worshipers of evil deities, and lack of rules regarding how players can achieve acts of evil that NPCs already can, such as creation of undead. Creation of undead has always been an evil act, even when "negative energy" wasn't always evil by itself (such as the inflict spells in 3.x, no evil descriptor). Currently, no classes have alignment limitations, so the classes have to be built in such a manner as to account for a member of that class potentially being from any alignment. How can you really portray a Good-aligned necromancer?
This is a difference of opinion between you and me - I believe that the Necromancer, and undead in general, do not need to be necessarily evil. There's even a ritual in a recent Dragon that allows the creation of a sort of "pack-zombie", like a pack mule. So I believe the Necromancer is coming.
I agree with TheLoneCleric that Incarnum, while kind of interesting, was flawed beyond belief, and not really balanced for synergy with core rules. Same with the Tome of Magic. That stuff was when 3.5 Jumped the Shark.
I agree also. However, I believe that the Incarnum classes, rather than being torn whole-cloth and converted with fluff and such intact, will be changed to work on internal soul power and possibly will not be about soulmelds at all. Similar to the Ardent name I attached to the Psionic Leader, I don't have any attachment to the name, but it's the best name for the concept that I know of.
Except that the monk has all but been confirmed as a striker, and NOT a defender. One of the devs (I think Mike Mearls?) was quoted when questioned if monk would be a Martial Striker. He said "You're half right". WotC has also stated they are done with Martial classes, and that monk will be ki. Where does that leave us?
In all of my speculation before this last paragraph, I've stated I believe that the Monk will be a striker. I;m not all of a sudden changing my mind - I'm saying that I hope everyone's idea of the cloth-wearing weapon using character is a Striker and a Monk. Not that the it is a Defender and a Monk. I was merely referencing the concept as a defender the way everyone else was. Sorry if that was unclear.
Just so everyone's clear on my stance on Incarnum and Ki - I'm not advocating Soulmelds or Essentia or power from the souls of the dead/not yet born. I'm merely saying that, whatever your idea of a Ki Leader is, I believe that it should be called an Incarnate. If only to prevent Ki from being the Japanese/Asian/Anime power source. And possibly the Ki Defender should be called a Soulborn (or some other english/german/french sounding name - again, I'm not attached to these specific names).
I really don't like this. I like my fantasy to be D&D, not Asian D&D. I don't want my Warlord playing alongside a Half-Troll Barbarian, a samurai, and a flying kobold. i just don't. The kitchen sink fantasy just makes me sick.
Then don't allow it in your game. Problem solved.
Part of the issue people seem to be having is that 'Ki' needs to be from some foreign country. It doesn't. You just need to figure out where in the standard game paradigm it could come from. For example, y'know who could have developed ninjas? GNOMES. Sneaky, cunning, elusive, fits their spying MO perfectly. Samurai? Loyalty to a clan, tough as nails ... I'm thinking dwarves. Et cetera, et cetera.
Heres hoping that we don't see Incarnum rear its ugly head again.
Quoted for truthery.
@SongSooGumbup: I guess it's time for my shameless plug: Since 4e got to the shelvesm I've been working on a small venture that involves me signing up for the GSL; it will take Philippine Mythology into account and try to incorporate its monsters and traditions into the DnD world as a whole. I was gunning to have it released right before PHB2, but at the moment I think April sounds a lot more realistic.
I'll probably be announcing it on the GSL thread once I sign the GSL itself. It's almost done, and I'm proud of what I got. :D
@doctorhook: I just want to say that I hear you, man. I've always enjoyed how the githzerai managed to be monks without them feeling like any distinct RL location, and I hope the PHB3 classes as a whole get this trend as well.
**********
I for one like the ki power source, and wouldn't mind seeing the monk there. I may also enjoy seeing the ninja or, with a stretch, a samurai in the ki power source if done right. If I understand the power source correctly, ki is all about a blending of the inner spirit and martial prowess, and I think these three classes fit there.
The challenge, however, is to fix it such that the power source is not restricted to being set from one location alone.
Someone explain to me what "ki/soul" based powers a Samurai is pulling out? Cause all I see is a Martial class. I can think of their "Kiai Battle Shout" that could be converted in a Ki based power, but thats about it.
There's nothing "Ki/Soul" about drawing and striking with your Katana in one smooth motion, as cool as that is, its all "Martial" training to me.
I've reach the point where I don't care if Ki=Asian. I just want Ki=Awesome.
This.
I dont give a flying fig if they call a class "samurai", "bushi", "flying dragon" or "french fries". The asian flavor is totally mutable and secondary to good/unique/fun mechanics.
I really don't like this. I like my fantasy to be D&D, not Asian D&D. I don't want my Warlord playing alongside a Half-Troll Barbarian, a samurai, and a flying kobold. i just don't. The kitchen sink fantasy just makes me sick.
This statement struck me as so silly that i assumed you were joking the first time a read it. Not wanting DnD to be kitchen sink fantasy is like complaining that they are suddenly putting tall people in the NBA.
Really, if there are things you dont want to include in your game that is perfectly fine. I know there are tons of things i don't like in my games. Eliminating the kitchen sink aspect of the game's basic options is pretty anathema to the default flavor that the game has always had though. For well over 20 years DnD has been a game were ninjas, knights, medusas, mummies, sphynxs, cthulu, samurais, space hampsters and laser guns from outer space (barrier peaks) have co-existed in the same campaign.
Ninja = Elemental.
Theres enough scope in the mystical ninja, enough Fire/Wind/Water/Earth elements in martial arts and old kung fu movies, that the ninja could take up this mighty mantle.
I mean, Wind and Water make for great ways to power ninja invisibility, backflipping onto roofs and running across a lake. Fire, thats your smoke bomb in the classic Ninja escape move. Earth can give them tricks to conceal their tracks and create deceptive "clay" clones of themselves. And I'm sure ninja did a bit of magic alchemy in the old flicks, which could bring in any of the elements.
Ooo, that reminds me of a classic scene in Big Trouble in Little China:
Jack Burton: What's in the flask, Egg? Magic potion?
Egg Shen: Yeah.
Jack Burton: Thought so, good. What do we do, drink it?
Egg Shen: Yeah!
Jack Burton: Good! Thought so.
Hmmm, I wanna change my vote for the Ninja:
Ninja = Elemental.
Theres enough scope in the mystical ninja, enough Fire/Wind/Water/Earth elements in martial arts and old kung fu movies, that the ninja could take up this mighty mantle.
I mean, Wind and Water make for great ways to power ninja invisibility, backflipping onto roofs and running across a lake. Fire, thats your smoke bomb in the classic Ninja escape move. Earth can give them tricks to conceal their tracks and create deceptive "clay" clones of themselves. And I'm sure ninja did a bit of magic alchemy in the old flicks, which could bring in any of the elements.
Finally, another person who thinks that Ninja should be Elemental! It always seemed to me that a dedicated Ninja class should be more magical than even Ki would provide for, and flashy fire-breathing and water-walking tricks are common enough amongst Ninja that elemental seems like a good match. I have seen enough versions of a Ninja who can use elemental "jutsu" moves in various videogames and anime that the idea has grown on me.
Anyways, I am glad to know that the Monk (and by implication the Ki Power Source) is going to be in the PHB3. I was hoping that it would be, but I was afraid that I would have to wait till even later. However, it seems the unending arguments about what "Ki" should be are only going to get worse from now on...
For the record, I hate both designating Ki as the "Asian" power source (meaning that all Asian classes are Ki), and trying to lump in random ideas in to Ki that don't fit (Incarnum doesn't work at all). The basic idea of Ki is both specific and broad enough that it can stand on its own. However, if most of the classes for Ki end up being Asian in nature because they fit well, then I don't have the slightest problem with it.
There will be eight classes again, but I think only two power sources: ki and psionic
ki will be mystical fantasy oriental type of power source
These are my guesses for ki are:
samurai (ki defender)
Monk (ki striker)
Ninja (ki striker [more focused on being insubstantial, and ranged with shurikens])
and I think it would be cool to revive
Yakuza (ki leader)
The yakuza was a lame class from 1st ed, but I think if you gave the leader role this "mystical" feel, the yakuza might be the best one for it.
As for psionic, to retain its historical nature, will involve power points. Power points will be able to be used to enhance encounter and/or daily powers, but can be expended to "reuse" an expended daily power. I think that would allow it to fit in well with the current mechanic, but still retain that flavor of PP.
Psionicist (psi controller)
Psychic warrior (psi defender)
Lurk (psi striker)
then there will be some fancy all-new never been made (psi leader)
and for races:
thri-keen?
elan?
hengeyokai?
shadar-kai?
a different "shadow" race
who knows race wise
I still dont get why people put Samurai = Ki power source, other than the misconception that Ki=Asian=Samurai?
Someone explain to me what "ki/soul" based powers a Samurai is pulling out? Cause all I see is a Martial class. I can think of their "Kiai Battle Shout" that could be converted in a Ki based power, but thats about it.
There's nothing "Ki/Soul" about drawing and striking with your Katana in one smooth motion, as cool as that is, its all "Martial" training to me.
Nothing about the historical Samurai is "Ki," and I would have said the same thing a couple days ago. However, nothing about the historical monk is Ki either.
The Monk in D&D has always been over the top, based more on wuxia and anime than real monks. So why can't we base a Samurai on wuxia and anime, too? The fantastic mythical monk can walk on water and shoot blasts of energy out of his hands and punch plugs out of people's chests (it doesn't really even seem possible!) which is exactly what the D&D monk did in the past, and is likely to do in the future.
Now, admittedly, the Samurai in the past has been fairly mundane. He's been: "a weak fighter with a special magic weapon," "a weak fighter who shouts a lot and dual wields (despite the fact that this was really only done by Musashi and his successors)," and "a 10 level prestige class with only 3 or so effective levels who tumbles, deals extra damage when he two-hands his bastard sword...er I mean katana, and can take 5' steps between cleaves."
However, the fantastic mythical samurai can do so much more. He can cut the air in front of him and send a shockwave that cuts distant things; he can damn near teleport past you while you're going for a strike and then you fall apart, halved, when he sheaths his sword; he can shoot an arrow from horseback that can decapitate you and your buddy; he can shout and glow with super energy that gives him added strength and speed; he can leap hundreds of feet in the air and land in a shockwave. The list is endless.
Now, I will admit that I'd prefer the Ki Defender to be culture neutral* like the monk, as there are plenty of examples of magic swordsmen in wuxia that are decidedly not Samurai, but I'm pretty sure they'll go with the thing that the majority of people will know.
*I say culture neutral because I refer specifically to the "Ki" cultures. I am well aware of the different mythologies and metaphysical theories present in other Asian countries like Indonesia and Thailand and whatnot, but here I am referring specifically to cultures that use some form of Ki in their theories: China, Tibet, Japan, (some of) Korea, and (depending on how broad Ki is) India.
Hmmm, I wanna change my vote for the Ninja:
Ninja = Elemental.
Theres enough scope in the mystical ninja, enough Fire/Wind/Water/Earth elements in martial arts and old kung fu movies, that the ninja could take up this mighty mantle.
This is dangerous. Its not a bad though, necessarily, but its assuming "Elemental" is a power source about the "classic" elements, rather than the power source dedicated to the Elemental Chaos. I forsee it to be much like Divine, but with primordials instead of gods. It certainly may contain air, earth, fire, and water, but it will likely draw on chaos and things of that nature just as much if not moreso.
And on the topic of Ninja, I really don't understand why it can't fall under the Monk class. In the past, Ninja classes have been hybrid Rogue/Monks or Fighter/Rogues. I would imagine of the two styles of ninja:
Historical Ninja would be done with Rogue, easily.
Fantastic mythical Ninja would be done with Monk. Monk is a Ki Striker, remember? Nothing prevents Monks from getting sneaky powers, too.
Heavily Magic Ninja like in certain painful animes would be swordmage multiclassed into Rogue/Monk/Warlock/Sorcerer, or a melee (dex based) sorcerer multiclassed into Rogue/Monk.
I think Ninja would be great for the Shadow power source, along with Dread Necromancer and mayhaps others. Wu Jen and Shugenja would both be good for Elemental too, though I could see Wilder as part of Elemental.
Yay, Monk!
See, when I read about Ki / Soul as a power source, I immediately considered this a method by which to return Incarnum classes from version 3.5 in style. The Incarnate, Soulborn, Totemist and Monk would make the four "groups" of classes, while largely avoiding the cultural problems that come from using Ninja and Samurai.
Id really like to see the Totemist return as a primal class, especially considering that the primal classes use totems for implements and shaman is summoning glowy blue spirit beasts.
Id really like to see the Totemist return as a primal class, especially considering that the primal classes use totems for implements and shaman is summoning glowy blue spirit beasts.
Isn't a Warden kind of a lot like a Totemist?
Id really like to see the Totemist return as a primal class, especially considering that the primal classes use totems for implements and shaman is summoning glowy blue spirit beasts.
In many ways I must wonder if the totemist has already been absorbed into the primal power source. Most notably the Warden's ability to partially transform and thus take on aspects of multiple different animals over the course of a single encounter.
After the release of Primal Power and the additional builds it will unsuitably provide, there may not be any need for a separate totemist class.
This is dangerous. Its not a bad though, necessarily, but its assuming "Elemental" is a power source about the "classic" elements, rather than the power source dedicated to the Elemental Chaos. I forsee it to be much like Divine, but with primordials instead of gods. It certainly may contain air, earth, fire, and water, but it will likely draw on chaos and things of that nature just as much if not moreso.
This may be a problem for other guesses on Elemental classes, but I think an Elemental Ninja would be fine even if there was a Chaos/Primordial theme running through the Elemental Power Source. Chaos suits Ninja just fine.
And on the topic of Ninja, I really don't understand why it can't fall under the Monk class. In the past, Ninja classes have been hybrid Rogue/Monks or Fighter/Rogues. I would imagine of the two styles of ninja:
Historical Ninja would be done with Rogue, easily.
Fantastic mythical Ninja would be done with Monk. Monk is a Ki Striker, remember? Nothing prevents Monks from getting sneaky powers, too.
Heavily Magic Ninja like in certain painful animes would be swordmage multiclassed into Rogue/Monk/Warlock/Sorcerer, or a melee (dex based) sorcerer multiclassed into Rogue/Monk.
I don't really agree here. I mean, I agree that historical ninja can be described easily with the Rogue, but I don't expect the Monk will work to portray a mystical ninja. If nothing else, I doubt the Monk will have the stealth and weapon proficiencies that define the classic ninja.
Besides, Ninja should be its own class, if simply because it is a popular concept with a clear archetype and a wide pool of tricks that can be easily turned into Powers. There are very few concepts that can be turned into a class as easily as the Ninja, and it is probably more deserving of class status than many archetypes that have already been turned into classes for 4E. Also, I am of the opinion that if they are going to make a magical ninja, they may as well just go all out and specifically create a class that can use all of the most fantastic abilities given to ninja in pop culture. A Monk may be able to do some impressive feats, but I doubt that even a Monk/Swordmage multiclass would be able to describe that kind of ninja to a satisfying degree.
I really don't like this. I like my fantasy to be D&D, not Asian D&D. I don't want my Warlord playing alongside a Half-Troll Barbarian, a samurai, and a flying kobold. i just don't. The kitchen sink fantasy just makes me sick.
I think Wizards should simply do away with Asian-themed content since you don't like it. It's the most logical solution to the problem.
I do NOT dig the "Ki = Asian" idea. It's stale, boring, and even offensive.
Offensive? Hyperbole much?
Functionally, it makes sense to put all the Asian-themed classes under one power source so people who like Asian-themed classes can buy the books with Asian content and those who don't can skip them.
One of the biggest issues with the 'Monk' is that there can be many, many types of monks. But 3rd Edition did more to personify the D&D Monk as the specialist fighter with internal mystical powers to strengthen and support himself.
The Third Edition monk really just brings back the First Edition monk - quivering palm and all.
I really don't like this. I like my fantasy to be D&D, not Asian D&D.
You are aptly named - and your comments deserve about as much credence as any example of nerd rage.
D&D is more than a pseudo-medieval Tolkien ripoff. Deal with it!
Offensive? Hyperbole much?
Functionally, it makes sense to put all the Asian-themed classes under one power source so people who like Asian-themed classes can buy the books with Asian content and those who don't can skip them.
Sure it can be offensive. While what's Ki is Asian, what's Asian often isn't Ki; this is a distinction that "Ki = Asian" fails to make. In essence, it's offensive because it implicitly paints half of the human population with one cultural brush: Japanese.
By way of example, it's analogous to someone from another culture describing you as "Catholic" because you come from the United States. That statement might accurate, but it might also not be, in which case it has completely misascribed your culture.
As for, "put[ting] all the Asian-themed classes under one power source so people who like Asian-themed classes can buy the books with Asian content and those who don't can skip them," that's in the same vein of logic as seating all the "black folk" at the back of the bus, so that the people who like "black folk" can sit with them if they want to, and those who don't can avoid them. I know you never intended that statement in a racist way, but there's a clear racist implication to it, Maze. More importantly, there's no reason why any power sources need to be culturally-themed at all, so why segregate them?
Anyway, there's another topic going about this whole "Ki/Asian" debate. Talk to me there.
Sure it can be offensive. While what's Ki is Asian, what's Asian often isn't Ki; this is a distinction that "Ki = Asian" fails to make. In essence, it's offensive because it implicitly paints half of the human population with one cultural brush: Japanese.
By way of example, it's analogous to someone from another culture describing you as "Catholic" because you come from the United States. That statement might accurate, but it might also not be, in which case it has completely misascribed your culture.
As for, "put[ting] all the Asian-themed classes under one power source so people who like Asian-themed classes can buy the books with Asian content and those who don't can skip them," that's in the same vein of logic as seating all the "black folk" at the back of the bus, so that the people who like "black folk" can sit with them if they want to, and those who don't can avoid them. I know you never intended that statement in a racist way, but there's a clear racist implication to it, Maze. More importantly, there's no reason why any power sources need to be culturally-themed at all, so why segregate them?
Anyway, there's another topic going about this whole "Ki/Asian" debate. Talk to me there.
You fail at racial studies.
The power source is "culturally themed" only in the sense that it is based on the myths and modern popular fantasies that originated with that culture.
If WOTC insists that everyone's samurai have names like Li Feng or Takanosuke, and insists that they live in pagodas and drink tea and write haiku, then you will have an argument.
But that's almost guaranteed not to happen. Instead, they'll do the same thing they always do with cultural myths- ruthlessly colonize them. We'll end up with caucasian ninja vikings with names like Robert the Bold, and all the usual crazy culturally mixed hodge podge we always have.
Which actually is supposed to be EVEN MORE offensive to people like you. The dominant culture is coopting the cultural heritage of another, and McDonaldizing it for popular consumption! But like I said, you fail at racial studies.
doctorhook is right in that it would be insulting for such a large group to be associated with something that concerns only the most popular member; an alternative analogy is to define High School under the "cheerleader" or "jock" power source. (Did that make sense?
)Cadfan's point is that the cultural theme is only an inspiration rather than an actual source. This is true as well; the end result will be so far removed from the original that it won't be recognizable to most.
What doctorhook is saying is that calling it Asian is bad taste; what Cadfan is saying is that it'll only slightly be recognizable as Asian anyway.
So, case in point; why call it Asian at all? It only implies a geographic location that we do not need, while insulting the majority of those in that region at the same time.
In the words of Miko Miyazaki, Samurai of the Sapphire Guard, "What is this 'Japan' that you speak of?"
We should think of the monk and the other ki classes in terms of what they can do, not where they came from.
That being said, the Wu Jen is certainly has ties to Chinese elemental magic, at least a bit more so than wizards do to so-called "western" magic. Since when did wizards blow up stuff with fireballs anyway? I don't even remember Gandalf doing something like that, though it's been awhile since I read LoTR.
Side note: the "Wu" in "Wuxia" is not related to this. It means "martial" (as in martial arts) and "xia" is either "code of honor" or "moral person".
As for, "put[ting] all the Asian-themed classes under one power source so people who like Asian-themed classes can buy the books with Asian content and those who don't can skip them," that's in the same vein of logic as seating all the "black folk" at the back of the bus, so that the people who like "black folk" can sit with them if they want to, and those who don't can avoid them. I know you never intended that statement in a racist way, but there's a clear racist implication to it, Maze. More importantly, there's no reason why any power sources need to be culturally-themed at all, so why segregate them?
No, it's not in the same vein of logic. Not even in Bill O'Reilly's world. I'm merely suggesting a logical division of classes.
It's been my experience that players either love or hate Oriental Adventures-style products. In my gaming group several of us (including myself) absolutely love playing samurai, monks, etc. Two of the players in my group think Eastern-themed classes are the dumbest thing ever and have no place in D+D.
So to get to your question, why separate them? Well, because I don't think those players in my group who dislike Eastern-themed classes shouldn't be forced to buy supplements with content they won't ever use.
Furthermore, I'd like to keep it separate because I don't want to buy a product for access to the samurai and monk and have to wade through 50 pages of idiotic psionic abilities (psionics is another of those love em' or hate em' themes, no offense to psionic lovers by the way).
I mean, can you imagine a stereotypical Asian monk chasing after a deer, catching it, killing it with their bare hands, and then eating it raw. While naked. In the winter. (Okay, minor cold resistance was one of the changes...) They were more like barbarians / druids taken to the extreme thematically but with the abilities of monks instead.
Let's look at some of them...
1. The Githzerai - They're a race of humanoids, former slaves of the Illithids, living in the Elemental Chaos/ Limbo. They're culture tends to change with every edition of D&D, but what's generally the same is that they favour monks (except during 2e which only had monks in some hard to find books) and psionics.
2. The Scarlet Brotherhood - They're a sect of Suel religious fanatics. The Suel are an ethnic group in Greyhawk that resemble a Caucasian ethnic group, they're much like Scandinavians except their hair is about as kinky as African hair.
3. The Kalashtar - From Eberron these humanoids were former humans with souls of rebel dream entities known as the Quori, merged into their bloodlines and souls. While they're culture vaguely does resemble Tibetan and Nepalese culture, they aren't Tibetan or Nepalese. The artist have depicted them as many different human ethnic groups.
And the things is those aren't the only 3 groups of monks in D&D that aren't Asian analogues.
The remaining Ki classes should be broad enough to handle groups such as those.
We should think of the monk and the other ki classes in terms of what they can do, not where they came from.
This, right here. To paraphrase, "We should think of classes in terms of what they can do that is unique and interesting, not in terms of what inspired them.
No, it's not in the same vein of logic. Not even in Bill O'Reilly's world. I'm merely suggesting a logical division of classes.
It's been my experience that players either love or hate Oriental Adventures-style products. In my gaming group several of us (including myself) absolutely love playing samurai, monks, etc. Two of the players in my group think Eastern-themed classes are the dumbest thing ever and have no place in D+D.
So to get to your question, why separate them? Well, because I don't think those players in my group who dislike Eastern-themed classes shouldn't be forced to buy supplements with content they won't ever use.
Furthermore, I'd like to keep it separate because I don't want to buy a product for access to the samurai and monk and have to wade through 50 pages of idiotic psionic abilities (psionics is another of those love em' or hate em' themes, no offense to psionic lovers by the way).
You posit that many folks dislike these power sources and prefer not to use them, for whatever reason. That's fair, and I can accept that. Unfortunately, the idea of segregating mechanics (in this case, power sources) is contrary to both the design philosophy of 4E and to WotC's business strategy for 4E.
With 4E, one of the things WotC has attempted to cut down on the number of products which are of interest to only portions of their consumer base. They've pursued this in two ways:
[indent]1.) WotC has endeavored to make mechanical elements distinct and unique, to avoid redundancy. In the past both Ki and especially Psionics have been highly redundant with core materials, regardless of which system was superior. Thus, we can expect both Ki and Psionics to be distinct enough in 4E to warrant their existence, and hopefully this will encourage more folks to include these elements in their games.
2.) WotC has stated that they intend to publish most player-oriented material in specifically player-oriented products. Beyond this, it's obvious that they also intend to sell it all together, rather than segregating different themes into specific books. In this way, consumers who purchase X will also end up with Y, the idea being that after seeing and trying Y, the player will buy a different book which contains more Y (and probably Z, too). For example, a player who likes Arcane classes might buy PH2 for the Bard and Sorcerer, and with it also get the Primal power source, which may then encourage that player to buy Primal Power. This might seem a bit insidious, but it's not a bad marketing strategy.[/indent]
My point is that not only is segregation of game-elements by theme potentially highly political (as in the case of Ki), but it's also contrary to WotC's interests, which is, in turn, also bad for us as fans of their products.
I think you're on the money, but what I'm really curious about is to how a Ki Controller would work out (and what would it be called)?
How about MONK?
Really Striker?
The monk should be a combat controller. Stunning attacks, Sweeps, and Throws to shift and pull characters, Dazing attacks. The MONK should be a controller.
Not a Defender without armor, not a striker who does nothing but damage, not a Leader,
CONTROLLER.
Thanks, end rant.
I see monk as some sort of striker. Monk need not only be "asian"; Friar Tuck from the Robin Hood stories was said to be quite the accomplished hand-to-hand fighter. I do realize that the D&D monk does tend to connect more with Eastern Martial Arts though.
If I had to guess... PHB 3 will probably help finish the Primal Power source much like PHB 2 is finishing Arcane and Divine.
I see monk as some sort of striker. Monk need not only be "asian"; Friar Tuck from the Robin Hood stories was said to be quite the accomplished hand-to-hand fighter. I do realize that the D&D monk does tend to connect more with Eastern Martial Arts though.
Except there were will be four primal classes in PHB2, like there were four martial classes in the PHB and no martial in PHB2.
I agree with everyone who's discussed the challenge of making ki not "Asian" power. Especially since Chinese, monk-like kung fu/wuxia doesn't have a whole lot in common with the Japanese samurai, sohei, shugenja, and ninja. The idea of power coming from inner force, concentration, or the soul is a lot more common in Chinese than in Japanese culture. And I have to admit I don't know much about the mythological backgrounds of other Asian countries, except India, which has very little mythology of martial heroism.
The good think about starting with the "monk" is that it's not necessarily Asian. Shaolin-style monks are martial artists, and to be sure, the D&D monk is based on that trope, but what else could be based on the same power source? First of all, not all kung-fu users are monks; ki-based defenders, leaders, and even controllers based on the heroes from Three Kingdoms are possible. Second, it's quite easy to envision ki being used to fuel swordsage-like powers (but please, no swordsage and swordmage in the same edition!), and, frankly, just about anything.
The challenge is making ki feel like a power source. D&D monks are basically all about hitting things with their fists, and could easily have used the martial power source. Fancy-sounding martial arts moves that basically involve hitting things with your fists also won't make the source feel different. Wire-fu acrobatics are a start, but a small one. Quivering Palm is an interesting approach, but I have no idea where that idea initially came from--it's in no wushu movie I've ever seen. Control of and attacks to the metabolism/organ functioning are the main staple of the genre, and I'm unsure how a full set of powers can evoke that.
and following the druid split i would like to see the samurai split up:
leader: heavy armor, sub defender.
striker: iajutsu cloth wearing, katana using type
sohei would be a hide/polearm defender with high mobility.
and shugenja would be a controller with 5 elemental paths:
fire: sub leader, sets things on fire, lots of ongoing damage. also lets allies take damage to end ongoing effects (a la cleansed by fire)
air: even more control with a lot of forced movement.
metal: lots of hard hitting things that knock things down, stun them or daze them. maybe even reduce damage enemies deal.
water: sub leader with ability to grant temp hp to allies.
wood: area denial zones.
oh yeah, and the dreaded ninja... make it shadow and keep it there
I kind oQuivering Palm is an interesting approach, but I have no idea where that idea initially came from--it's in no wushu movie I've ever seen. Control of and attacks to the metabolism/organ functioning are the main staple of the genre, and I'm unsure how a full set of powers can evoke that.
These two sentences make no sense together. Quivering palm is an attack to the metabolism and organ function of your opponent. It's like the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique from Kill Bill, similar techniques in the old Shaw Brothers movies Clan of the White Lotus and Executioners From Shaolin, or the legend of dim mak "touch of death" techniques in various Chinese martial arts (which is, I'm sure, where the original idea came from).
I think "wuxia" means "martial person/practitioner" but I could be mistaken ("xia" being like the Japanese "sha"). I would hope the Ki powersource would bring a more stylized feel that one might see in wuxia, chanbara, and anime to D&D, though it needn't be all Asian (certainly not all Japanese); Incarnum may return baring a more dreamlike feel to it. Powersources must feel different afterall, so a Ki swordsman and a Martial swordsman would play differently.
Xia is kinda the Chinese equilivent to Chivalry, extending from the Yuxia wandering soliders of the Han Dynasty (ca. 206BCE to 220CE).
Wushu is the generic 'martial artist' Wuxia is one who follows Xia and practices Wushu (Kung Fu is actually just being good at anything...but thats a whole another rant).
These two sentences make no sense together. Quivering palm is an attack to the metabolism and organ function of your opponent. It's like the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique from Kill Bill, similar techniques in the old Shaw Brothers movies Clan of the White Lotus and Executioners From Shaolin, or the legend of dim mak "touch of death" techniques in various Chinese martial arts (which is, I'm sure, where the original idea came from).
Or Fist of the North Star :p
"You're already dead."
Oooh...imagine a Monk attack that has no damage right away but inflicts MASSIVE damage at the end of the target's next turn XD
Monk: Ki Striker. Basic martial arts guy, light armor, possibly some ranged "ki-blast" powers
Sohei: Ki Defender. Swordsage/mystic samurai, has a mystic bond with his weapon, goes around in cloth/light armor. Mirrors the Arcane Swordmage by being more about mobility and close bursts than range and blasts.
Avatar: Ki Leader. Steals a few Incarnum concepts to affect other people's souls, and has Aura class features and powers
Incarnate: Ki Controller. Channeler/geomancer/feng shui artist
What are peoples thoughts on this?
Oh and for completeness sake:
Ninja- paragon path for the Shadow striker (shadowdancer?)
"Naruto ninja"- Elemental power source multiclass
and following the druid split i would like to see the samurai split up:
leader: heavy armor, sub defender.
striker: iajutsu cloth wearing, katana using type
This seem both unnecessary and unlikely. the Cleric and Druid got divided up because in 3.5 they cover too many different roles and archetypes to conveniently fit under any one class in 4E. Conversely, I never saw a single Samurai class or prestige class in 3.5 that did more then capture a small fraction of what a samurai should be. We don't need two separate classes to cover both the armored and unarmored samurai, just two separate builds.
Classes like the Warlord and Invoker already show how to make a class that functions in heavy or light armor depending on your build choice. Make sure armored build has no particular use for DEX/INT and they will naturally gravitate toward heavy armor. Then make sure that the unarmored build has a good use for DEX/INT so they won't feel as much need for heavy armor, probably give them a +3 AC in cloth (like the avenger) for extra incentive.
I'm starting to think thar the PHB3 will probably have a 4/4 split between Ki and Shadow, making it a more oriental guided PHB and the 2010 will most likely be Karatur...leaving 2011 to Dark and Psionics and Elemental heroes....
I would think Elemental would be shukenju and Wu Jen...
I should look further into it now.Onmyouji I think would be a Geomancer class (Elemental) and have as tools a board & mirror (feng shui), a jewel or stone (magatama), and whatever else one is known to use. It's more about the landscape than one's own ki, I think.
About Ki versus Martial: "Ki" is "breath," "feeling," or "energy/vibe." Mention of it is made in many martial techniques and other exercises (projection technique, breathing technique, ...). The only reason D&D has made it a separate power source is, I hope, that they'll use it for the stylization that surrounds it, as Arcane is used for the stylization of names as power over the named and entering into pacts to channel power (as opposed to channeling power from belief or nature), which feels very European and Middle Eastern to me.
The way I understand yamabushi/shugenja is a combination of Primal and Ki. If you think too much about categorizing everything, your head will explode as you realize power sources step on each others' toes. Why is Primal different from Divine? Why is Ki separate from Martial? Primal from Elemental? What the button is Shadow? They serve mostly as shortcuts for themes.
^ very true. Samurai are fighters. Ninjas are rogues.
That being said, any "Oriental Adventures" type book would mostly be a fluff book. Most likely it would be similar to the Manual of the Planes, with some maps and fluff stuff, some Oriental themed monsters, and maybe a few paragon paths. At best it could be as expanded as a campaign setting (possibly a Rokugan campaign setting book?). But don't expect any new core classes in it. Wizards has already stated that any such book would be printed after all of the Kai classes are released.
Not exactly. Rogues are just mildly ninja-like.
Not to be rude, but this is misspelled.
OMG OMG OMG
MONK!!!!!!!!!!
OMG OMG OMG
My we're late to the party arn't we? :D
For striker something that can use bursts of force at enemies would be pretty fun to play. Maybe with some melee going for him wouldn't hurt too.
I think it all came to a head in Planescape where we discovered the Githzerai Monks praticing psionics and martial arts in the depths of Limbo. Then their counterparts the Githyanki Pirates using Necromancy and Psionics in the Astral Plane.
So Ki/Psionic/Shadow might be viable for PHB3...especially if we're getting Planescape.
You don't think that's the big secret setting for 2010? Why Sigil is getting a write up in DMG2? Whoa.So Ki/Psionic/Shadow might be viable for PHB3...especially if we're getting Planescape.
Well, there's an idea. We'll find out come GenCon, so I'm not gonna worry about it.
Here's how I would go about making Ki mechanically and thematically variated.
Monk: Ki Striker. Basic martial arts guy, light armor, possibly some ranged "ki-blast" powers
Sohei: Ki Defender. Swordsage/mystic samurai, has a mystic bond with his weapon, goes around in cloth/light armor. Mirrors the Arcane Swordmage by being more about mobility and close bursts than range and blasts.
Avatar: Ki Leader. Steals a few Incarnum concepts to affect other people's souls, and has Aura class features and powers
Incarnate: Ki Controller. Channeler/geomancer/feng shui artist
What are peoples thoughts on this?
Oh and for completeness sake:
Ninja- paragon path for the Shadow striker (shadowdancer?)
"Naruto ninja"- Elemental power source multiclass
This. Or at least, pretty close to it. I'd rather the Avatar was the Controller, and the Incarnate was the leader, but I hope the roles are spot-on. I also think it's more likely that the Sohei will be called the Samurai, since it's more recognizable.
The Ninja = Shadow Striker seems pretty likely too.
I'm also hoping that the Wu Jen and the Shugenja are Elemental Controller and Leader, respectively.
Off-topic
On a completely off-topic note... Either Gleemax ate my post, I'm going crazy, or you've posted this exact thing on another thread that I can't seem to find at the moment.
I remember posting almost these exact same comments to this post by you before. Except someone else had a comment that I agreed with in this space, instead of me rambling about this being a cross-post. (At least, I hope it's a cross-post...)
EDIT: It is! It's a cross-post from the "Upcoming Ki Powersource isn't Asian? Prove it!" thread.
I remember posting almost these exact same comments to this post by you before. Except someone else had a comment that I agreed with in this space, instead of me rambling about this being a cross-post. (At least, I hope it's a cross-post...)
EDIT: It is! It's a cross-post from the "Upcoming Ki Powersource isn't Asian? Prove it!" thread.
How about MONK?
Really Striker?
The monk should be a combat controller. Stunning attacks, Sweeps, and Throws to shift and pull characters, Dazing attacks. The MONK should be a controller.
Not a Defender without armor, not a striker who does nothing but damage, not a Leader,
CONTROLLER.
Thanks, end rant.
Kind of a pointless one, since Mike Mearls already said, when someone asked if Monk would be a Martial Striker, "You're half right"
And we know monk is "ki", so the Martial part of that is out, what does that leave us with?
So Ki/Psionic/Shadow might be viable for PHB3...especially if we're getting Planescape.
Umm...with The Manual of the Planes already out and a detailed Sigil write-up in the DMG2, why would you need a whole 'nother set of books for Planescape? I would think that would be enough, lol.
Keep in mind whatever setting we get is going to have a Campaign Guide and a Player's Guide. A Campaign Guide for Planescape would be exceedingly redundant with the MotP.
I don't think we're gonna see Planescape or Ravenloft again. But WotC has already given us the tools we need to do both. Quite simply, Domains of Dread exist as little pocket planes within the Shadowfell. And Planescape was mostly just a lot of plane-hopping, combined with all the intrigue in Sigil (Factions, etc.). With both the Planes book out and an upcoming detailed look at Sigil, what more could you want?
Although I, myself, am hoping to NOT see a write-up for the Lady of Pain
. But since they're already doing write-ups and combat stats for GODS (Tiamat, Vecna), I see this as an unfortunate inevitability.That said, my hopes for PHB3 and 2010 setting are: Ki/Psionic/¿Elemental? and Dark Sun. DS would require psionic rules, and elemental might be nice for the......having a brain fart and cannot, for the life of me remember the name of the group that was trying to restore life to Athas... ARRGH!
Moving on...
...
...that was it, really.
Although I, myself, am hoping to NOT see a write-up for the Lady of Pain
On this note, although I slightly dread bringing this topic up, they also recently chose not to stat out Bane in an article about him because he was too powerful(around level 38) for characters to actually stand a chance against him. So it is entirely possible that they will not stat out the Lady of Pain.
I really hope there's no ninja or samurai class, simply because there's too much baggage attached to the terms. No matter what they can do, lots of people are going to be disappointed, and GMs are going to ban them from their games simply because of the name. Make Samurai Sohei, and Ninja Shadowdancer.
Incarnum fits fine within Ki, all you need to do is make the soul energy used the wielder's instead of unbound. Hell, it already existed in incarnum as essentia. Basically, we get a class who creates weapons/armour out of soul energy, like a Ki-based soulknife.
See Zu Warriors(0:24 till 1:00. Ignore the voiceover, it has nothing to do with the film)
Class Listing Ho!
Monk: Multi-target striker (See Sorcerer)
Sohei: Defender (Ki-adin)
Yogi: Single target controller
Incarnate: Single Target Striker
War-Acupuncturist: Leader :D
And it's good to have a second class with a name of Sanskrit origin.
Asian, but a whole continent away from AZN japan/china.
Sanskirt- that's middle-eastern and indian, right?
Asian, but a whole continent away from AZN japan/china.
Its primarily Indian, and India borders China. How is that a continent away? And in the other thread on the same topic (why are there two?) I pointed out that the Hindu concept of Prana is roughly identical to Ki (As is Greek Arete, but thats another topic for another day).
The wiki references it in the indo-iran/indo-europe area, which IS half a continent away- if nothing else, the Indian continental plate.
Ah, but which part of India? India is itself almost as big as all europe together.
The wiki references it in the indo-iran/indo-europe area, which IS half a continent away- if nothing else, the Indian continental plate.
Wiki should referance it as Indo-****, not Indo-iranian or indo-european. Its also the more or less official hindu holy language (like Latin for catholics). Hinduism (with exclusion zone around Delhi) is the dominate religion around the border of India/China.
The Hindi languages which dervive from Sanskrit still use Devanagari transliteration, which for comparison early Xi writing requires its only romanization sequence due to differences.
Overall, Sanskrit is fairly universal in India (as close as one gets anyway).
As a side note, Europe fits in Russia easily, but that doesn't make Russia a continent.
Edit> In fact Europe almost fits in Canada (about 200K square kilometers doesn't fit, compared to almost 7Million for India) and the US (300K) and china (same) and none of them are continents either.
Edit2> Indo-**** Languages
Edit3> Indo-European Language family (including European, ****, Iranian language groups) (I shuold make it clear, that European is not an accepted real family of languages (mostly as Albanian and other eastern European languages have no bearing on Romance Langauges neither of whom deal with Germanic).
Edit4> Dravidian Language spread
I remember back in the early 90's a Dragon magazine article that had character kits based off of Indian/Middle-Eastern cultures. Granted, the article is roughly 15+ years old, but it was kinda cool, and could possibly be mined for ideas.
I see in Anubis' thread quote from a different thread that someone suggested Yogi as a class. I think that's a cool idea because it draws influence from a culture other than feudal Japan.
Except there were will be four primal classes in PHB2, like there were four martial classes in the PHB and no martial in PHB2.
In that case, I'd say that Psionics will be in the 3rd PHB since (IIRC) it will be coming out around the same time as some of the Eberron stuff. I also think that the Shadow power souce will come along sometime soon since some of the options in Martial Power make reference to the Shadow keyword.
At any rate, I think I agree with the camp that not all Ki classes should be "Asian." Even the monk need not be completely "Asian." I have nothing against Asian culture (I'm actually a rather big fan of some of it); I just feel that there's a wide variety of cultures and ideas to pull from; as such, I'd like to see more variety make it into the Ki concept.
Somewhere along the line someone mentioned Indian culture (India, not Native American.) I'd like to see some of the Ki classes come from there; I could imagine a concept similar to Dhalsim from Street Fighter or perhaps a class which uses various "Sutras" to perform their powers. I suppose that technically India is considered part of Asia, but the way that "Asian" is being used in this thread leads me to assume that "Asian" is somewhat the same as saying Japanese or Chinese in this thread...if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.
I might take some heat for mentioning this, but I also imagine that one of the Ki classes could be similar to a Jedi. They could focus their Ki into a Ki-Blade or something similar.
So, what does that lead me too? hmm...well...
Monk: Ki Striker maybe with some minor control abilities if Grab is opened up a little more.
Ki Controller: This might sound crazy, but I could actually see two versions of the monk. One version would be mainly a striker and minor in controller; the other would be more similar to what I mentioned earlier with Dhalsim. This second version would be a controller via being able to channel their ki into fireballs and various other crowd control abilities and minor in striker. These two classes would be sort of the mirror of each other with one being more physical and one being more mystical. The 3E Elf was split into the 4E Eladrin and 4E Elf to better cover both of the commonly held Elf stereotypes in the game, so why not try doing the same thing with a class? Depending on how you built your monk in 3E, you could wind up with very different characters. Since 4E seems to have a bit more of a narrow focus for what classes can do, I think the idea to make two "monk" classes could work. If someone didn't like the split and wanted both worlds they can always multiclass.
Ki Jedi: My first thought is leader/defender, but I'm not sure if there would be room for another class of that nature since Warlord and Paladin already cover a lot of that area. It could possibly have some striker qualities. PHB 1 had two martial strikers, so there's no reason to think that other power sources won't double up on certain roles. Perhaps the Ki-Blade idea could be a stronger version of Pact-Blades. The Jedi takes time to attune themselves to a blade which allows them to use it as an implement for certain attacks. There would need to be a good way to make this different from the Sword Mage though. Perhaps we could borrow an idea from the Wizard and have different implement masteries; depending on the fighting style which the Jedi uses, there would be different benefits. This could also cover a lot of what the Samurai would be while still being different enough from a Samurai to not shoehorn the class into being purely "Asian."
edit: I was responding to an earlier post, so I didn't see that so many other people had already came to the Indian idea. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who would think that was cool.
In oriental adventures, the daisho(katana and wakizashi) had power that could be awakened. The power is from their ancient ancestors spirits(or souls if you will). Just because their power source is "soul" does not mean that it must be that they use their own discplined soul. Just like a wizard is not born with arcane potential, he can still learn to use it, whether it's a part of him or not.
The Daisho would only work for the person it's passed down to. Their ancestors wouldn't want just anyone to have their power. They'd have to learn all over anyways.
I see that this would get in the way of gaining magic weapons while playing, but it would be like the kensai of 3.5 IMO.