http://www.wizards.com/download.asp?filename=375_Playtest_Monk.pdf
Role: Striker
Power Source: Psionic
It begs the question, "What happened to the Ki power source?" which will no doubt be answered as I read more of this playtest article and the accompanying Design & Development article.
(And is the ninja psionic!? ;))
What the ****!!!!
They really pulled us for a ride here!
I can't believe it! Now on to reading the actual playtest...
Who ninja'd who here? lol
(And is the ninja psionic!? ;))
Me ninja'd you. :P
I bet it's Shadow.
Me ninja'd you. :P
Actually my thread says 12:01 and yours is 12:02. You are getting more traffic though. lol
Awesome, I approve of this flavor decision. . .
It seems weird in light of "Ki", but it's probably for the best, given the intense debates folks were having about wtf Ki should be.
Actually my thread says 12:01 and yours is 12:02. You are getting more traffic though. lol
Mine says 10:02, thus I'm two hours earlier than you. ;)
PS: Yes Virginia, there is a power called "Drunken Monkey".
It seems weird in light of "Ki", but it's probably for the best, given the intense debates folks were having about wtf Ki should be.
It seems like Ki is no more. Check out the Design & Development article, it talks about why there won't be Ki.
My second thought: AWESOME.
In my homebrew, there's already a very close relationship between Ki and Psionics. This just made things a hell of a lot easier.
The monk ended up where it did because the ki power source proved untenable and psionics is the next best fit.
This goes a long way toward supporting my theory that the elemental power source will be tossed out the window. Wizards, Swordmages, Sorcerers, ect, are all elemental-based. The Elemental source just isn't unique enough to exist.
We'd better still get a Soulknife then, I don't care if it is also a psionic striker, but I still want a soulknife .The Design & Development article also discusses why Shugenja, Ninjas, Wu Jen, and Samurais aren't "Ki" classes, and confirms that Samurai (probably) won't ever be a class, but will probably see the same treatment "Gladiator" and "Assassin" did in Dragon Magazine.
WotC designers are finally making intelligent moves, I see.
I can't say that I disagree that Ki isn't enough of a power source on its own, but it would have been much cooler to see the monk become a martial class instead. I have never been a fan of psionics, never will be. It would have been much cooler to fuse psionics to ki so we can kill psionics dead (FINALLY).
Perhaps many of our other power sources will be lumped into the others, since elemental kinda is superceded by arcane, as is shadow. That kinda leave a rather bleak looking PHB3 though.
need basic info...like what role, the gist of class features and powers. I dont need specifics, just the gist...
Psionic Striker. I'm pretty sure I wrote that in the OP.
He has a lot of powers with the "Full Discipline"-keyword, which have both an Attack and a Movement component, each with their own action type. (For example, "Dancing Cobra", an At-Will Attack, has a Standard Action "attack technique" which deals 1[W] + Dex damage versus Reflex, and a Move Action "movement technique" which moves you up to your speed + 2.) You can only use one "Full Discipline" power per round.
Focused Expertise feat....that is just ridiculous. Every swordmage is going to take that AND Weapon Expertise or Implement Expertise. That is just dumb.
You must have missed the part where it says it doesn't stack with either of those. :P
(It's at the top of the next column.)
Focused Expertise feat....that is just ridiculous. Every swordmage is going to take that AND Weapon Expertise or Implement Expertise. That is just dumb.
Special: You can take this feat more than once.
Each time you take this feat, choose a different
weapon that you can wield as an implement. This
bonus is not cumulative with the one provided by
Implement Expertise or Weapon Expertise.
Doesn't quite look like it. However, it's nice for those classes that do use both.
ninja'd
need basic info...like what role, the gist of class features and powers. I dont need specifics, just the gist...
Psionic Striker. Key stat is Dex. Str and Wis are secondaries.
Psionic powers are called Disciplines.
Unarmored AC bonus and unarmed attacks that are treated as weapons (improved proficiency, damage, etc) and you can get them enchanted via ritual, so your character can now have flaming fists. There are also monk weapons.
Lots of abilities that allow for mobility. The bonus damage comes from Flurry of Blows, which allows you to deal bonus damage to your target or even other nearby target(s) upon any successful attack.
Well that certainly came out of left FAIL.
I can't say that I disagree that Ki isn't enough of a power source on its own, but it would have been much cooler to see the monk become a martial class instead. I have never been a fan of psionics, never will be. It would have been much cooler to fuse psionics to ki so we can kill psionics dead (FINALLY).
Perhaps many of our other power sources will be lumped into the others, since elemental kinda is superceded by arcane, as is shadow. That kinda leave a rather bleak looking PHB3 though.
Unfortunately for you, Psionics has been growing since 3E and Eberron, rather than dying off. 4E is taking steps to solidify it more firmly than ever before. It would be wise to just accept it, like I did; it may not be the same concepts you're expecting anyway. (The Monk, for example, isn't "psychic"; Psionic is just short-hand for "focuses on inner discipline more than outer", which the Monk does and manifests as cool movement and unarmed/exotically-armed attack powers.)
I'm thinking that the soulknife will be a paragon path for monks.
Edit: Oh and angelus_obscura, I see a lot of love for the psi-blades aspect of the soul knife. I could see it showing up in a striker and a defender. Although it is pure speculation, I could see it as a monk paragon path and a also a feature of a psionic defender if one gets made, maybe both.
I'm thinking that the soulknife will be a paragon path for monks.
It could be an as-yet-unrevealed Monk build, too, or it could be the Psionic Defender. (Imagine the Soulknife concept killing the Psychic Warrior and taking its stuff; besides, "Psychic Warrior" is a terrible name for a class.)
You must have missed the part where it says it doesn't stack with either of those. :P
(It's at the top of the next column.)
I totally missed that! Its kinda lame that the had to specifically state that it doesnt stack because they didnt have the foresight to actually make these feats typed bonuses though.
This is a sort of necessary feat at this point, since swordmages where getting hosed for needing both weapon and implement expertise before. This is a feat that should have been in the PHB2 or PGtFR.
It could be an as-yet-unrevealed Monk build, too, or it could be the Psionic Defender. (Imagine the Soulknife concept killing the Psychic Warrior and taking its stuff; besides, "Psychic Warrior" is a terrible name for a class.)
This also solves the name problem for the soulknife. People were saying that it would need a new name if the ki power source used soul and the soulknife was psionic. Now the name is free of the baggage.
So whats a Soulknife if not an Avenger or Swordmage who's sword is their mind?
In fact, not so long ago I suggested to a fellow looking to homebrew a Soulknife that he crib from a combination of the Rogue and Swordmage classes. (It was prior to the Avenger, though I may not have picked it anyway.)
This also solves the name problem for the soulknife. People were saying that it would need a new name if the ki power source used soul and the soulknife was psionic. Now the name is free of the baggage.
Truth! I expect to see the term "Ki" appear in the names of a lot of Monk "stuff": feats, powers, paragon paths, and magic items.
As for Soulknives (or, if Defenders: "Soulswords" perhaps?) I expect the class to be heavily reconcepted after being boiled-down to its most basic identity: a warrior who fights primarily in melee with a blade of energy that he forms with his mind/soul. (I always thought of the X-Men's Psylocke as the iconic Soulknife, and I think she will remain thus with any such concept.)
EDIT: It just occured to me: with Ki as a Power Source effectively DOA now, this certainly bodes ill for those hoping to see Incarnum return as flavour-booster for that power source.
In fact, not so long ago I suggested to a fellow looking to homebrew a Soulknife that he crib from a combination of the Rogue and Swordmage classes. (It was prior to the Avenger, though I may not have picked it anyway.)
I could see the soulknife get the gladiator treatment. It could just be a series of feats that let you use whatever weapon your class normally uses as an energy blade. You could make a soulknife out of any class then.
Well said docotorhook, it is really just an issue of semantics. It appears that psionics and ki are the same thing, so what does it really matter what name they decide to give it. Though I prefer calling it psionic, I wouldn't care (and would also approve) if they said psions were now ki powered. . .
Edit: Oh and angelus_obscura, I see a lot of love for the psi-blades aspect of the soul knife. I could see it showing up in a striker and a defender. Although it is pure speculation, I could see it as a monk paragon path and a also a feature of a psionic defender if one gets made, maybe both.
Totally agreed, on both counts. (In fact, I said pretty much the same thing just a moment ago.)
Oh, and thanks!
Gah! Makes me want to see even more stuff!
I could see the soulknife get the gladiator treatment. It could just be a series of feats that let you use whatever weapon your class normally uses as an energy blade. You could make a soulknife out of any class then.
That's true, but personally I prefer to think "Psionic Defender" for the Soulknife, because the only shoe-in for the role right now is the "Psychic Warrior", a bland class with a bland name and concept. Make it the Soulknife: suddenly our Psionic Defender role is filled, and we've given a cool class a new life in 4E -- everybody wins!
Oh, and I forgot to mention: Monks treat Unarmed attacks not only as a weapon they are proficient with, but also as 1d8 damage, +3 proficiency weapons with a reach of 1, which again, are enchantable.
This jumped out as super lame to me. What if no one in your party has the enchant ritual?
The DMG also recomends tossing PCs items with enchantments that are above their level. The unarmed monk will never have a weapon with as high a bonus as other people in the party if his party always has to wait for the caster with the minimum level to get his hands redone. There had better be a way to get unarmed enhancements that don't involve a ritual that you don't even get by default.
So then we'll have the Monk (striker), Soulknife (Defender)... And what? I'm hesitant to say Wilder since the Sorcerer sort of stole some of its coolness... I'd probably see the Psion's 6 Disciplines being divided into the controller called the Psion (taking Clairsentience, Metacreativity and Psychokinesis) and the leader called an Egoist (taking Psychometabolism, Psychoportation and Telepathy).
All in all, I love the change!
Did not see the Psionic bit coming but it makes a ton of sense. Psionics were always about discipline and inner focus... Plus this means Soulknifes are free to become the Psionic Defender (what's more Psionic-y than conjuring weapons with your mind?).
So then we'll have the Monk (striker), Soulknife (Defender)... And what? I'm hesitant to say Wilder since the Sorcerer sort of stole some of its coolness... I'd probably see the Psion's 6 Disciplines being divided into the controller called the Psion (taking Clairsentience, Metacreativity and Psychokinesis) and the leader called an Egoist (taking Psychometabolism, Psychoportation and Telepathy).
All in all, I love the change!
I could certainly see this sort of layout being used. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the name Egoist (but I don't really care that much about names).
My favorite discipline in 3.5 was shaper, I wonder where shaper style powers will end up. . .
On that note; KI IS DEAD!!!!
And the peasents rejoiced.
Elemental has such room to play with too - races like Ravaasta could become playable, with the racial PP being more like the monster from MoP.
EDIT: It just occured to me: with Ki as a Power Source effectively DOA now, this certainly bodes ill for those hoping to see Incarnum return as flavour-booster for that power source.
I prefer to see it from the other direction. With Ki missing from the suite of power sources, we have a gaping hole for PH3 or PH4 ... one that could be filled with the Incarnum power source.
I must say that I'm happy to see the Monk take his rightful place alongside the Psion. Also, I'm completely tickled that WotC has just destroyed anyone's theories about what will be the upcoming power sources. At this point, we only know that Psionics will be in PH3, and I look forward to arguing that any other power source they named doesn't actually exist. I mean, with the "core" *giggle* Ki Power Source gone (*steps away to laugh maniacally*), Shadow and Elemental ... well, they might go the way of the dodo too.
Goodbye Ki. HELLOOOOOO Psionics!!! (And, I hope, Incarnum [whose theories have, at long last, outlived Ki])
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
While knowing for a fact that there is going to be Psionics in PHB3, and more space for it with the exclusion of Ki, plus hopefully this means more classes for Psionics. One worry I have is how much the Ki flavours Psionics, I really want lots of Pseudoscience in my Psionics. I am hopeful that since it is more one included within Psionics and not built into it from the beginning will mean there is Pseudoscience.
Gah! Makes me want to see even more stuff!
Monks can have the "Thousand-Blossom Flurry" attacks, and Psions can have the "Ectokinetic Transmogrification" powers. Soulknives can march into battle in defense of Aiur, while Empaths can whisper cryptic commands in a monotone voice while his allies acquiesce as though they possess no will of their own.
Monks can have the "Thousand-Blossom Flurry" attacks, and Psions can have the "Ectokinetic Transmogrification" powers. Soulknives can march into battle in defense of Aiur, while Empaths can whisper cryptic commands in a monotone voice while his allies acquiesce as though they possess no will of their own.
I really hope this is what we will see.
Did not see the Psionic bit coming but it makes a ton of sense. Psionics were always about discipline and inner focus... Plus this means Soulknifes are free to become the Psionic Defender (what's more Psionic-y than conjuring weapons with your mind?).
So then we'll have the Monk (striker), Soulknife (Defender)... And what? I'm hesitant to say Wilder since the Sorcerer sort of stole some of its coolness... I'd probably see the Psion's 6 Disciplines being divided into the controller called the Psion (taking Clairsentience, Metacreativity and Psychokinesis) and the leader called an Egoist (taking Psychometabolism, Psychoportation and Telepathy).
All in all, I love the change!
As a matter of fact, Rich Baker once called the Psionic Leaders "Empaths". Beyond this, I recall reading somewhere that WotC was/is considering dropping the name "Psion" as a class name, because it's too generic -- it would be like naming the Wizard class an "Arcane".
I really hope this is what we will see.
Soulknives as Protoss Zealots?
I could certainly see this sort of layout being used. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the name Egoist (but I don't really care that much about names).
My favorite discipline in 3.5 was shaper, I wonder where shaper style powers will end up. . .
Well they could call him a Nomad or a Telepath but both of those have conotations. The former will make a lot of people angry that WotC is using 'real words' to describe classes (this is akin to the infamous 'Warlord/Marshal Debate'). Telepath feels restrictive but could help to differentiate the class from other leaders.
I'm not sure what else WotC could call the class. Ardent was more of a defender, while Divine Mind and Lurk have all the wrong connotations. I suppose Erudite could be used but that's another weird word (like Egoist), lol.
If the Shaper themes are to be used, I think we'd see it lumped in with the Psion... Though the idea of pulling ectoplasm and/or astral gunk to form creatures may not be the direction Psionics are going. That style of combat may be absorbed into a Shadow power source and re-flavored as pulling ectoplasm and/or shadow stuff from the Shadowfel.
Soulknives as Protoss Zealots?
Hmm... *Tries to find connection* Oh Auir, I just assumed that was some name from past D&D editions :P
I meant mainly just a wide swath of different Psionic concepts. The Monk one, my Pseudoscience one, etc.
This jumped out as super lame to me. What if no one in your party has the enchant ritual?
The DMG also recomends tossing PCs items with enchantments that are above their level. The unarmed monk will never have a weapon with as high a bonus as other people in the party if his party always has to wait for the caster with the minimum level to get his hands redone. There had better be a way to get unarmed enhancements that don't involve a ritual that you don't even get by default.
Well there's always NPCs who could perform the rituals. I also would imagine that various gloves/wraps or other items could enhance the power. It should be noted though, that once a Monk's limbs have been enchanted, they can never be disarmed or stolen short of lopping off body parts.
"I am sensing hostility" - Said as the alien yells at them and charges its weapons.
"I feel is hiding something" - After the he just refused to answer any questions.
This goes a long way toward supporting my theory that the elemental power source will be tossed out the window. Wizards, Swordmages, Sorcerers, ect, are all elemental-based. The Elemental source just isn't unique enough to exist.
It had better get axed. If something with the rich potential of ki got axed, while a bastard child like elemental gets through I will be even more
then I am now. 
That's enough ranting for the moment though. I already vented over on the DDi forums and I'm trying to cool down so that I can drink in my own depression with this whole turn of events.
Empath is a name I rather like, as long as we avoid the Counselor Troi Empath ;)
"I am sensing hostility" - Said as the alien yells at them and charges its weapons.
"I feel is hiding something" - After the he just refused to answer any questions.
And Empath has the advantage of being mentioned in Races and Classes.
I'm seeing:
Monk - Psionic Striker - as depicted in playtest plus more
Empath - Psionic Leader; based off Egoist with some 3.5e Ardent elements
Ardent - Psionic Defender; based off Ardent, Soulknife, and Psychic Warrior
Erudite - Psionic Controller; based off previous Erudite, Kineticist, & Shaper
Hmm... *Tries to find connection* Oh Auir, I just assumed that was some name from past D&D editions :P
I meant mainly just a wide swath of different Psionic concepts. The Monk one, my Pseudoscience one, etc.
lol I'm glad you did catch it. Protoss Zealots are my second major thought for Soulknives:
My first thought of Soulknives is of Psylocke from the X-Men, although there's not many good images of her ('90s-style) blades:
Empath is a name I rather like, as long as we avoid the Counselor Troi Empath ;)
"I am sensing hostility" - Said as the alien yells at them and charges its weapons.
"I feel is hiding something" - After the he just refused to answer any questions.
Careful you don't go accidentally making the concept lame... It might be best that we bury references to her when speaking of Empaths in D&D.
Uh... am I the only one who noticed that level 22 utility powers are totally missing from the playtest?
Forgetting whole levels of powers is the kind of thing that bugs me more than power sources.
But... HEADING OFF TOPIC... Back to Psionic awesomeness! I can't wait till Builder update to mess around with this, also combined with Hybrid Classes (hopefully include this as well).
And Empath has the advantage of being mentioned in Races and Classes.
Ki used to be a "confirmed" power source. As far as I'm concerned all bets are off from this point foreword.
Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to take what's left of the corpse of ki, fashion it into a necrotic blade, and contemplate how to use it to insure that elemental dies as well.
So those of you out there waving the Soulknife freak flag, take heart. Chances are good that the Monk has joined that league without taking it over.
I mean, the Monk is awesome ... but the Soulknife is has a unique place in "so freaking cool that it bends my mind to explain a fantasy world without it."
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
I'm hoping they'll make a Dream Power source, or at least a Psionic or Shadow Class that deals with dreams. Shadow Power Source can't die; it's in the FRPG and MoP. So those two at least are staying.
Wow... not much love for Elemental. Must be because it's so mysterious and nobody has a clue what it might be about...
I'm hoping they'll make a Dream Power source, or at least a Psionic or Shadow Class that deals with dreams. Shadow Power Source can't die; it's in the FRPG and MoP. So those two at least are staying.
I never truly thought an Elemental power source would be possible. Arcane is basically that, sorry. Not that I don't like stuff dealing with the elements but I fail to see how you can differentiate between Arcane and Elemental to make it worth a whole power source.
That's basically the same deal that Ki got. Which I agree with them that Ki just didn't work out to be enough to build a full power source on. You need to cover all class types in a power source plus looking for the future as to new classes and enhancements on old classes. Psychic gives much more versatility and yet basically does the same thing that one would think with Ki.
I mean I saw Ki as channeling inner strength and basically nothing in the Ki power source to really aid others. Which would screw a leader class. So now that there's just Psychic, it'll be better.
As for a Dream source, nah. That just...I can't again see it as a full source. As part of Psychic sure, but not a full power source.
I'm hoping that the talk from the Development article will bring the Ninja in as a Shadow source class in PH3 so we'll have Psychic and Shadow which would fit well together. Shame about no real solid samurai class but it makes sense as well.
Wow... not much love for Elemental. Must be because it's so mysterious and nobody has a clue what it might be about...
No, it feels redundant. I mean, a huge chunk of Wizard/Sorcerer/Swordmage at-wills are elemental themed, and they get tons more as they progress.
Wow... not much love for Elemental. Must be because it's so mysterious and nobody has a clue what it might be about...
I'm hoping they'll make a Dream Power source, or at least a Psionic or Shadow Class that deals with dreams. Shadow Power Source can't die; it's in the FRPG and MoP. So those two at least are staying.
Why must there be a power source for every single category in the gods darned multiverse? Elemental power falls under arcane. Keep things simple and concise please.
Arcane - manipulating [un]natural energy (INCL. the elements) around us
Divine - channeling energy from an ascended being (god, primordial, other)
Martial - body
Psionic - mind
**Shadow - entropy/necrotic
That's it.
Also to the die-hard Ki lovers, I believe Goodman Games put out a Ki based Monk.
This goes a long way toward supporting my theory that the elemental power source will be tossed out the window. Wizards, Swordmages, Sorcerers, ect, are all elemental-based. The Elemental source just isn't unique enough to exist.
Definitely a good chance now that we know the power sources menitoned in PHB1 aren't guaranteed. I know my Wizard is an "Elementalist".
We've already seen with Sorcerers, Warlocks, Rogues and Rangers that WotC is willing to put out classes in the same roles. Also as WotC has now lost at least one of their power sources (Ki), we might see "complete" power sources revisited. I know I'd love to see a second Arcane Defender.
Oh, and I forgot to mention: Monks treat Unarmed attacks not only as a weapon they are proficient with, but also as 1d8 damage, +3 proficiency weapons with a reach of 1, which again, are enchantable. The Design & Development article also discusses the idea that Monks will be able to gain additional "properties" for their unarmed attacks, citing "brutal" as a hypothetical example.
I'm wondering if other classes will be able to get a hold of the ability to enchant their own hands.
I've got a "Gladiator" Gnoll who was enslaved for most of its life and forced to compete in tournaments. I've taken the "Claw Fighter" feat so I play an extremely barbaric fighter that uses its bare hands, but feat the specifies I can't enchant my claws. It would be nice to be able to get around that limitation somehow so I don't fall behind in my power level. Even if I multiclass into Monk.
and the leader called an Egoist (taking Psychometabolism, Psychoportation and Telepathy).
I think Empath would work as a leader. Debuffs happen by forcing the enemy to feel the pain its dealing to your allies, giving it a -2 to attacks.
lol I'm glad you did catch it. Protoss Zealots are my second major thought for Soulknives:
My first thought of Soulknives is of Psylocke from the X-Men, although there's not many good images of her ('90s-style) blades:
I, myself, ever think of soulknives as a rip-off from Kuwabara Kazuma, from Yu Yu Hakusho. maybe i just had a different childhood. :P
Oh well...
In the end we might indeed see Arcane swallow elemental for the simple fact that its stupidly broad! Arcane is so 'catch all' that almost every other power source could fit in there.
Personally I see Elemental with lots of transmutation power, not simply a bunch of damage types.
And I'm happy as an Asian that they decided against doing anything stupid like throwing anything that's Asian all into one power source.
mixed feelings on the monk:
the good:
- no ki power source. that's good because ki is martial
the bad:
- psionic, okaaay? but then they make dexterity their most important stat? hello? psionic screams for wis/int/cha, but dex? martial?
the undecided:
- "full discipline": standard + move action within one power. somehow I don't like it, but I'm not really sure why - some new mechanic? why didn't they just give some bonus to move actions with the power? this, on the other hand, might have become problematic with overlapping effects (end of your turn? next turn?)
it's a playtest version...
the good:
- no ki power source. that's good because ki is martial
If Ki was more incarnum based, then it would be deserving of its own power source. Then again, Psionics covers the inner will and discipline...
the bad:
- psionic, okaaay? but then they make dexterity their most important stat? hello? psionic screams for wis/int/cha, but dex? martial?
I think the Monk is to Psionics like the Barbarian is to Primal. It doesn't quite fit but it works well enough.
Monks are psionic. At first I was all like WHAT then I was all like, well I guess. The more I think of it the more sense it makes. I was hoping it would be a controller though, but what are you going to do?
Well there's always NPCs who could perform the rituals. I also would imagine that various gloves/wraps or other items could enhance the power. It should be noted though, that once a Monk's limbs have been enchanted, they can never be disarmed or stolen short of lopping off body parts.
You just have to flavor the rewards a bit differently. The enchant to the Monk's unarmed attacks is not a gizmo lying in a chest in a dungeon, it's a ritual performed when he returns to the monastery after a successful mission.
Others beat me 2 it.
You just have to flavor the rewards a bit differently. The enchant to the Monk's unarmed attacks is not a gizmo lying in a chest in a dungeon, it's a ritual performed when he returns to the monastery after a successful mission.
Lol, I've currently got a Warforged Rogue that was a conversion from a 3.5 Warforged Monk that I'm looking to re-convert back. His unarmed attacks might very well be gizmos found in chests in the right kinds of dungeons. Or at least inside spare parts cabinets.
Or you could just give the monk his new magic arms as the AV recommends for leveling up an item.
Now I can only picture the monk as a Mr. Potato Head... "Hey look, these arms are on fire."
"I want them!" **Pops off arms*** "Uh... a little help please?"
But in all actuality, that would explain item slots...
"Why can I only have one necklace on?"
"Because you only have one hole in that area."
It first says you can use only one Full Discipline power per round, but then says you can use the At-Will ones At-Will.
I think I know what they mean, but the wording could be better.
TBH, the class doesn't feel massively Psionic, its only when they get to the later powers that it begins to show through. It could've been Martial IMO
Monk unarmed strike + Dynamic Weapon enchantment = Soulblade
Now there's an interesting image. Though some how in my mind a monk with such an enchantment would more so resemble the attack style of a T-1000 terminator. Kind of makes me wish the item power was At-Will instead of Encounter.
On that note; KI IS DEAD!!!!
Ki has died! It is no longer here! But! On my name! And in my mechanics! It's become one with me and continues to live!
Thinking a manifestation to pierce the heavens. Even in a grave, I can think on.
And if I can break through, it's my victory!
Who the hell do you think I am?
I'm Psionics. Not my bro, Ki.
I am myself! Psionics the Manifester!
Certain Kill!
GIGA... MIND... CRUSHER!
Anyone else finding the Full Discipline text confusing?
Yes. Then I realised it was specifying for Techniques.
You can use the Techniques in At-Wills as many times as you want. So if you want to double move using a technique, it has to be with an at-will.
Encounter techniques can only be used once and you need to do use them both in the same turn. If you only use 1 technique from an encounter in a turn, then you lose the other technique anyway.
Here's some legal scenarios as I understand it.
Move: Dancing Cobra Move Technique.
Move (converted from Standard): Dancing Cobra Move Technique.
Action Point (Standard): Dancing Cobra Attack Technique.
Move: Standard Move Action.
Move (converted from Standard): Drunken Monkey Move Technique.
Action Point (Standard): Drunken Monkey Attack Technique.
(Drunken Monkey is now unavailable for the rest of the encounter).
Move: Dancing Cobra Move Technique.
Standard: Dancing Cobra Attack Technique.
Action Point (Standard): Drunken Monkey Attack Technique.
(Drunken Monkey is now unavailable for the rest of the encounter).
That's my understanding anyway.
This jumped out as super lame to me. What if no one in your party has the enchant ritual?
The DMG also recomends tossing PCs items with enchantments that are above their level. The unarmed monk will never have a weapon with as high a bonus as other people in the party if his party always has to wait for the caster with the minimum level to get his hands redone. There had better be a way to get unarmed enhancements that don't involve a ritual that you don't even get by default.
Its certainly feasible. It will simply require a lot more care and thought.
So any actual word on when we might start seeing psionics in the published materials? I really don't wanna have to come up with a houserule system for psionics if it won't be too long...dat's alotta work, yo.
Like... PH3? Highly doubtful we'll see more than the monk before then.
But, and this apparently will need to be repeated many times in many threads before people get it into their heads, there IS no "system" for psionics. It's just a power source, and all that means in 4e is a bit of flavor, some fluff, a handful of thematic connections. There is practically zero crunch that ties the classes of a certain power source together.
I never truly thought an Elemental power source would be possible. Arcane is basically that, sorry. Not that I don't like stuff dealing with the elements but I fail to see how you can differentiate between Arcane and Elemental to make it worth a whole power source.
Now that we know that power sources can die, I think we can stick a fork in Elemental as well. There were three basic ideas for Elemental, and the Sorcerer has already stolen one, and I don't think other two are "tenable".
1) Aristotlean element based, "Bender" concept. Use the Greek elements, assigning one or two of them per role. Fire Striker and Earth Defender, or Water/Earth Leader. Still possible, but always seemed the least likely, as it doesn't fit into the default cosmology well.
2) Placing the asian caster classes into elemental, using the Chinese/Japanese 5 elements. Possible, since shugenja and wu jen were mentioned in the DDi monk article as being placed "somewhere". I don't think there's enough traction to place them in their own power source, and what other classes do you place in the power source to make it worthwhile? Also doesn't fit in with the default cosmology. Wu jen is likely primal and shugenja divine, if they make it in.
3) Power drawn from the primordials and the Elemental Chaos, a counterpoint to Divine. I think wild sorcerer and Demonskin adept prove that WotC is willing to let arcane subsume this idea into its portfolio. I wouldn't be surprised if shadow also taps into the Elemental Chaos for a class or a few paragon paths. (As I think shadow will be counterpoint to Arcane)
the bad:
- psionic, okaaay? but then they make dexterity their most important stat? hello? psionic screams for wis/int/cha, but dex? martial?
What this means is Psionic =/= Psychic. This is a GOOD thing. I was terrified that Psionic would be the "Deal Psychic Damage" power source. What this shows is that Psionic doesn't have to be necessarily about your mental domination of others or your ability to affect things with your mind, but it's about your inner self. That's what Ki is essentially; the two were too similar to be separate power sources unless Ki was made arbitrarily into the "Asian Power Source," which is unanimously agreed as a bad thing.
It just means that the second set of ability scores aren't your only "mental" scores - you can have inner strength and constitution, and you mental training to have strong physical overlaps. Incarnum invoked Constitution as it's main ability score. Int/Wis/Cha isn't fully necessary for an inward character.
What this means is that while Martial focuses on indomitable will and superhuman persevering, it's not an inward power source: you are trained in the art of using weapons and arms, and the use of them, and that is the primary function of the power source. Monk isn't martial anymore than Barbarian isn't martial - there's "Martial-like" powers at lower levels, but as you advance into the class, your powers are less and less martial-like, and more built upon your inner training and focus. It's about theme, and there's no way that Monk would be thematically a martial character unless you stripped that inner discipline away.
Mr Monk "Geeze these flaming fists are great, but I really want me some lightening fists instead"
Mr Wizard "No problem, I'll just transfer this flaming enchantment onto the dagger we pulled off that kobold back there. We can sell it and use the money towards your lightening!"
There is a transfer enchantment ritual (I forget the name) in adventure vault which would allow the monk to "sell" his enchanted fists just fine.
That works. Alternately, as a DM I'd actually allow you to just Disenchant the enchantment. Sure the ritual reads that the item is destroyed, but the "monk unarmed strike" isn't really an item anyway, so I don't think it can be destroyed. (I might be talked into believing that it's a sort of "virtual item" - same difference tho)
BTW, did you notice that they were careful to mention only races that have already been published...
Yeah, I did notice that, but they did put a picture of a Gith in the first art from the playtest.
The fact that you can use enchant weapon just opens the door for the DM to award unarmed magic 'weapons' to any Monk PC just as they would award them with a standard magic item. This can come in the form of an 'upgrade' to an existing unarmed enchantment, a magic tattoo ala L5R given to the PC or dozens of other ways. Then you just treat it as a normal parcel. Easy.
Sure, its easy to make houserules to get around but if everyone here is already proposing different houserules to make it balanced with other weapons, then there is something wrong with the default rules.
Encounter techniques can only be used once and you need to do use them both in the same turn. If you only use 1 technique from an encounter in a turn, then you lose the other technique anyway.
I don't think you can use them both in the same round. The last paragraph says "you can use the techniques of an encounter full discipline power once during a round."
EDIT: only half of my sentence showed up!
Sure, its easy to make houserules to get around but if everyone here is already proposing different houserules to make it balanced with other weapons, then there is something wrong with the default rules.
What we're suggesting mostly isn't houserules at all. Houserules would involve tweaking the mechanics.
All we're saying (at least I am) is that the parcel system for treasure covers this contingency without any tweaking at all. Nowhere in the DMG does it say the parcels have to be found on the cooling corpses of enemies. You can just as easily make every scrap of treasure the PCs get be payment from a patron for services rendered.
This jumped out as super lame to me. What if no one in your party has the enchant ritual?
Then you buy a scroll of it. Anyone can use scrolls.
I don't think you can use them both in the same round.
You can. Every power has an attack and movement technique in it. You can use both as long as you have the actions to do so.
So if you use Drunken Monkey, you use a move action to use the movement technique, then you use your standard action to do the attack.
Or, you could do that above, then spend an action point and use one of the techniques from an At-Will.
The interestign concept I see is that, while on some levels it would seem a waste to do so, since the Enocunter powers have ovement techniques in them, in a pinch you can use them just for the movement component to get out of a sticky situation. It's like the Monk has a bazillion Utility powers.
Tzarevitch
What we're suggesting mostly isn't houserules at all. Houserules would involve tweaking the mechanics.
All we're saying (at least I am) is that the parcel system for treasure covers this contingency without any tweaking at all. Nowhere in the DMG does it say the parcels have to be found on the cooling corpses of enemies. You can just as easily make every scrap of treasure the PCs get be payment from a patron for services rendered.
And the treasure is a tattoo that doesnt exist in the rules?
Then you buy a scroll of it. Anyone can use scrolls.
That covers one aspect of the problem. The other is that it is recommended that the DM give out items that are higher level than the PCs. Following the DMG, the monk's bonus will fall behind everyone elses.
You can. Every power has an attack and movement technique in it. You can use both as long as you have the actions to do so.
So if you use Drunken Monkey, you use a move action to use the movement technique, then you use your standard action to do the attack.
Actually no, read the last part of the sidebar on techniques. It says: "For example, you can use the techniques of an at-will full discipline power as many times during a round as you like, provided you have enough of the required actions, but you can use the techniques of an encounter full discipline power once during a round."
You cannot use Drunken Monkey once to attack and then again to move. That would be like using an encounter power twice in one round.
I am not sure if anyone mentioned this but monk being psionic does point strongly to psionics being next year's power source and Dark Sun being next year's setting in order to showcase it.
Tzarevitch
And Dark Sun had a special character class that was essentially a Monk/Psion. The Sensei.
Care to actually try to form a coherent argument on that, rather than a random baw?
Random, poorly-spelled baw, that makes no sense.
There, Salla, fixed it for you. :D
And the treasure is a tattoo that doesnt exist in the rules?
I never mentioned tattoos. That was someone else, and FWIW there are already going to be magical tattoos in AV2, so that "slot" is taken.
But hey, if someone wants to visualize the enchant on their unarmed attack as a tattoo, who am I to stop them? It's all just fluff, still nothing houseruled.
My own suggestion about disenchanting the enchant without destroying the "item" isn't a houserule either, just a way to interpret what's written in the rules text. See, they are studiously avoiding writing that the Monk is enchanting his fists or his body, and instead persist in the somewhat odd terminology of calling the unarmed strike a weapon. This tells me they have a reason in mind for this wording. One reason is of course that it lets weapon feats and powers apply. I think another reason might be to allow for the swapping of enchants.
Actually no, read the last part of the sidebar on techniques. It says: "For example, you can use the techniques of an at-will full discipline power as many times during a round as you like, provided you have enough of the required actions, but you can use the techniques of an encounter full discipline power once during a round."
You cannot use Drunken Monkey once to attack and then again to move. That would be like using an encounter power twice in one round.
Sorry, that's incorrect. Read what you just quoted. It says "the techniques". Plural. So the complete sentence means that you can use each of the power's techniques once. This is perfectly clear from the grammar alone, but if you need additional confirmation the d & d article makes it even more clear that this is the intent.
Actually no, read the last part of the sidebar on techniques. It says: "For example, you can use the techniques of an at-will full discipline power as many times during a round as you like, provided you have enough of the required actions, but you can use the techniques of an encounter full discipline power once during a round."
You cannot use Drunken Monkey once to attack and then again to move. That would be like using an encounter power twice in one round.
Except that Drunken Monkey has two techniques, one an attack and one a movement. So you can use each technique once in the round.
On the other hand, the at-will abilities would allow you to move twice by converting your standard action into a move action and then using the movement technique of the at-will ability twice.
Focused Expertise feat....that is just ridiculous. Every swordmage is going to take that AND Weapon Expertise or Implement Expertise. That is just dumb.
Did you miss the bit where it states it doesn't stack with the other expertise feats?
I never mentioned tattoos. That was someone else, and FWIW there are already going to be magical tattoos in AV2, so that "slot" is taken.
But hey, if someone wants to visualize the enchant on their unarmed attack as a tattoo, who am I to stop them? It's all just fluff, still nothing houseruled.
My own suggestion about disenchanting the enchant without destroying the "item" isn't a houserule either, just a way to interpret what's written in the rules text. See, they are studiously avoiding writing that the Monk is enchanting his fists or his body, and instead persist in the somewhat odd terminology of calling the unarmed strike a weapon. This tells me they have a reason in mind for this wording. One reason is of course that it lets weapon feats and powers apply. I think another reason might be to allow for the swapping of enchants.
I've seen multiple people in different threads mention making tattoos as a houserule so they could "find" a specific weapon, which is specifically what i was talking about. The issue i have is that you need a houserule or special homebrew item right now so that a monk can have an unarmed strike that is above his level. The DMG guidelines allow everyone else in the party to have them except for the monk.
Except that Drunken Monkey has two techniques, one an attack and one a movement. So you can use each technique once in the round.
On the other hand, the at-will abilities would allow you to move twice by converting your standard action into a move action and then using the movement technique of the at-will ability twice.
I see what you are saying. You can Move + Move with an at-will, but the wording is specifically trying to stop you from Move + Move 'ing with an encounter instead of Standard + Move.
Did you miss the bit where it states it doesn't stack with the other expertise feats?
Did you miss the part where someone already jumped on me for that and i admitted that i miss it? ;)
Did you miss the part where someone already jumped on me for that and i admitted that i miss it? ;)
Yeah, I'm an idiot... It would help if I read the whole thread. I missed that it was 4 pages already.
Monks being psionic makes perfect sense and blindsighted the community in a wonderful way. I'm as big of a fan of 'PSIONOC' as the next guy, so I'm happy.
Monks being psionic makes perfect sense and blindsighted the community in a wonderful way.
Seconded. At first I was weirded out, but it actually does fit.
I've seen multiple people in different threads mention making tattoos as a houserule so they could "find" a specific weapon, which is specifically what i was talking about. The issue i have is that you need a houserule or special homebrew item right now so that a monk can have an unarmed strike that is above his level. The DMG guidelines allow everyone else in the party to have them except for the monk.
This is only a problem for people that are stuck in the mindset that magic has to be "found". I repeat, the DMG guidelines already allow for any method of handing out magic that the DM can think of. Nowhere does it say that it has to be "loot" pried from the cold, dead hands of monsters.
Devil's advocate: Yes, if you're running a low-civilization campaign where the adventurers can't buy anything at all and have to scavenge all their equipment, then you have to think up some "homebrew item" for the monk (maybe a very specialized ritual scroll?).
But then again, if that is your campaign you already need scads of other houserules, so the monk is probably among the least of your worries.
Why axe a belief system that is thousands of years old with an artificial system, that never worked in all previous editions 1e, 2e, 3e... psionicists were all failures.
It makes no sense whatsoever.
I've never allowed psionics in games I DM. If WotC, wants to replace realistic beliefs with smurf-ideas, that's fine, but leaves no place for me to participate. So I too, think 4e is leaving me, rather than me leaving it.
Monks as psionicist?! That's completely stupid. (I'm not an edition war nut, don't know or care about MMO's, just a D&Der, here.)
Based on world beliefs, I'd say, drop psionics into the toilet where it belongs and replace all ideas of psionics with Ki. That makes much more sense. If you think about the reality of psionics, is actually the power of the mind and body which is the definition of Ki. Psionics is Ki, not the other way around.
GP
I'd rather keep psionics and dump divine.
In a related note, I'd love to see a Monk/Fighter multiclassed for Iron Vanguard. With all the pushing and shoving the Monks get, that would be sweet.
On second thought, perhaps just a Dex/Str Monk/Fighter Dragonborn with Draconic Arrogance. I really should stop trying to abuse that feature, but I just find it too fun! ^_^
D&D is a fantasy game it's not real life.
If only people would realize this.
If only people would realize this.
Yup.
Ki is an interesting idea, and it has been around for a while in terms of beliefs, but can you really base a whole power source on it? Explain to me exactly what a "Ki Leader" would be, then we'll talk. I think it's a good idea for them to make monks psionic, but I don't think we needed anymore god-damned strikers than we already have.
Based on world beliefs, I'd say, drop psionics into the toilet where it belongs and replace all ideas of psionics with Ki. That makes much more sense.
GP
Then replace them with ki, who cares. It's just a word without crunch behind it. Just another word for "Group of Roles D"
I've seen multiple people in different threads mention making tattoos as a houserule so they could "find" a specific weapon, which is specifically what i was talking about. The issue i have is that you need a houserule or special homebrew item right now so that a monk can have an unarmed strike that is above his level. The DMG guidelines allow everyone else in the party to have them except for the monk.
Actually, this is pretty much a non-problem, just have your DM read the Adventurer's Vault section on awarding item levels as treasure. that way your monk can simply have his magic fist improve in enhancement bonus and if your DM is like me even change from a flaming Unarmed Strike to a Sacrificial Unarmed Strike with a higher enhancement.
Ki has died! It is no longer here! But! On my name! And in my mechanics! It's become one with me and continues to live!
Thinking a manifestation to pierce the heavens. Even in a grave, I can think on.
And if I can break through, it's my victory!
Who the hell do you think I am?
I'm Psionics. Not my bro, Ki.
I am myself! Psionics the Manifester!
Certain Kill!
GIGA... MIND... CRUSHER!
... huh?
If only people would realize this.
Except that fantasy is based around realistic or historical ideas (usually), or extrapolations of existing reality into future ideas.
Fantasy based on no true reference doesn't really exist.
At some point in history people believed in fairies, werewolves, wizards, magic, dragons, ghosts, demons, devils, etc. - it wasn't invented for the sake of fantasy. Fantasy extrapolates on reality.
So everything in D&D, all its fantastical ideas are based on some preconceived notion of reality.
Except for complete artificial, based on no history or reality, like Psionics. How in any kind of way is that better??? Besides, I think Psionics is science fiction and not fantasy at all.
Other than psionics show me anything from D&D that has no previous relationship to belief systems in the real world - it doesn't exist.
GP
PS: the real problem for me, is I am a game developer, working on settings to be sold for D&D, using the "correct word" is important for the development of products. If I were just a home-brewer, sure I could change the name and it shouldn't affect play. But as a game developer - that's completely different, if you understand my point of view.
Except as mentioned elsewhere, Ki as an idea is thousands of years old, and actually believed by individuals worldwide today. Although such things as ESP, telekinesis and telepathy are also "believed", the greater thing called Psionics is a completely artificial invention of D&D.
Why axe a belief system that is thousands of years old with an artificial system.
Like Arcane. In reality magic was more generally chalked up to what in D&D terms would be Divine, Primal, or to a lesser extent, alchemy. Arcane magic was an invention of D&D, while the term "Psionics" has existed for at least 50+ years, and many of its concepts are faaaaaar older.
Regarding the relationship between psychic/psionics and Asian spiritual concepts like ki/chi/karma, etc should note the last few decades of new age spiritualism, where concepts such as universal consciousness, the third eye, holistic healing, and meditation exist right alongside concepts such as chi, ESP, and clairvoyance.
This is something that more western audiences can grasp that seems mystical and foreign, but isn't so obviously tied to Asia (specifically Japan and China).
Except that fantasy is based around realistic or historical ideas (usually), or extrapolations of existing reality into future ideas.
Fantasy based on no true reference doesn't really exist.
At some point in history people believed in fairies, werewolves, wizards, magic, dragons, ghosts, demons, devils, etc. - it wasn't invented for the sake of fantasy. Fantasy extrapolates on reality.
So everything in D&D, all its fantastical ideas are based on some preconceived notion of reality.
Except for complete artificial, based on no history or reality, like Psionics. How in any kind of way is that better??? Besides, I think Psionics is science fiction and not fantasy at all.
Other than psionics show me anything from D&D that has no previous relationship to belief systems in the real world - it doesn't exist.
GP
'Based on' and 'confined by' are two different things, for starters. Fantasy does not extrapolate on reality; fantasy extrapolates on IMAGINATION. There were never any dragons, dwarves, fairies, etc etc in the real world.
How is real world people believing in telekinesis, telepathy, psychic readings and all that jazz not a 'belief system'?
In any event, I don't see psionics as science-fiction, or fantasy; I feel they fit perfectly well in both.
Except as mentioned elsewhere, Ki as an idea is thousands of years old, and actually believed by individuals worldwide today. Although such things as ESP, telekinesis and telepathy are also "believed", the greater thing called Psionics is a completely artificial invention of D&D.
D&D didn't invent Psionics.
Psionics and Ki are Western and Eastern views of the same thing: Power over the body and the environment through internal energy manipulation.
DnD basically uses the Shaolin Monk as the driving inspiration behind the idea of the monk class. A HUGE part of the Shaolin training is mental, and therefore you could call it "psionic". That being said, monks are, above all, martial artists. I just don't understand why they weren't put into the martial power source. I think it would have been cool if they were martial controllers, using techniques to plague enemies with status effects and whatnot. As long we're using the hollywood idea of all monks as martial artists, I think it'd be cool to give them the cheesy kung-fu "paralyzing palm" deal.
Of course, one of the most important themes of the Shaolin monk in popular media is that none of this stuff is possible because they're physically stronger, faster, or tougher. They usually don't even like to fight: the martial arts are always claimed to be for self defense and more of a way to meditate than to actually kick ass.
It's always about perceptions, truth, realizing that pain/limitations aren't real, etc. That's how they push themselves to the limit, and how they can beat up a room full of guys who are a lot bigger than they are (and never lose their cool).
'Based on' and 'confined by' are two different things, for starters. Fantasy does not extrapolate on reality; fantasy extrapolates on IMAGINATION. There were never any dragons, dwarves, fairies, etc etc in the real world.
All of reality can be argued to be imagination. However, basing fantasy ideas on the past beliefs confines nothing, extrapolations can be endless.
While I can agree dragons, dwarves, fairies, etc. did not exist in the real world, people at one time or another believed they did, in fact the majority at the time, so just because it wasn't real, doesn't mean the idea of these fantasies weren't based on what was believed to be real.
GP
Psionics: Mental energy used to affect the physical world.
OH NOES PSIONOCS IS TEH DIFFERANT FROM KI!!!!!!1!ELEEVN!
All of reality can be argued to be imagination. However, basing fantasy ideas on the past beliefs confines nothing, extrapolations can be endless.
While I can agree dragons, dwarves, fairies, etc. did not exist in the real world, people at one time or another believed they did, in fact the majority at the time, so just because it wasn't real, doesn't mean the idea of these fantasies weren't based on what was believed to be real.
GP
Are you suggesting that people never believed in the power of the mind to discern the nature of reality and that such knowledge was never believed to confer onto them the ability to transcend mortal limitations (in terms of perceptions, physical abilities, etc)?
Are you quibbling over the name? Because that's a whole 'nother can of beans.
All of reality can be argued to be imagination. However, basing fantasy ideas on the past beliefs confines nothing, extrapolations can be endless.
While I can agree dragons, dwarves, fairies, etc. did not exist in the real world, people at one time or another believed they did, in fact the majority at the time, so just because it wasn't real, doesn't mean the idea of these fantasies weren't based on what was believed to be real.
GP
AND there are people who believe that psychic phenomena are real, therefore there's no reason to excluse the psionic power source from D&D. Thank you for proving my point.
ANCIENT GREECE 'telepathy' is supposedly a really old greek word for "thinking at a distance". Aristotle had a fear of sea turtles because he had a vision that he would be killed when one struck his head. Fancy that a sea turtle hitting him in the head...
but that is exactly how he died. he avoided the sea and lived on high cliffs but was killed when a turtle was droped by a falcon, the bird was trying to break the shell.
thing is that there may not be a recorded "PSIONIC LEGEND" in history because the elite masters in shang ri la la erased all memory of them in order to found their secret conspiracy that currently rules the world.
psionicists actually are running things. you want proof?
why fight fanatical orders of primal, divine and arcane when you can make them fight eachother leaving the psionic conspiracy unchallenged.
hmm, I have revealed too much of the truth. okay, all of you reading this will forget this entire thread as meaningless ranting, trolling, flaming, and baiting...
There, The conspiracy is safe once more. Now we can put our martial pawns to work helping us to quell those who know too much.
I have to say (since soulknives are getting so much love on this thread) that i'd be sad to see them treated as a defender. I guess i always saw them as monks with mindblades... so i'd rather they get the Gladiator treatment. Or be their own striker class. But that's just me.
As mentioned before, Monks can enchant their fists. That makes it so easy to envision a monk with a firery blade encasing their arm as opposed to simply having hands wreathed in flame. It gets even crazier when you use the Lifedrinker, Voidcrystal, or other enhancements.
step one: Print out PDF
step two: find all occurrences of Psionic and replace with Ki
done...
Power sources are fluff anyway so change it if you do not like it.
In fact, I can see where this is going, and it really does sound like something my gaming group would joke about. Just wait until the Ninja class comes out. And the Spelljammer campaign setting. When that happens, munchkins everywhere will have their fondest dreams fulfilled.
They'll finally be able to play 100% official, non-homeruled, completely-by-the-book, RPGA-approved:
Show
PSIONIC NINJAS...IN SPAAAAAAAACE!!!
As mentioned before, Monks can enchant their fists. That makes it so easy to envision a monk with a firery blade encasing their arm as opposed to simply having hands wreathed in flame. It gets even crazier when you use the Lifedrinker, Voidcrystal, or other enhancements.
Actually they don't enchant their physical fists, they enchant a kind of "virtual weapon" (my term) that is called "monk unarmed strike" (WotC term).
This provides a clear model for soul/mind blade/knife type characters.
I mean, I think they're pretty well defined as they are, but c'mon... you have to admit the lines are blurred at best.
There is also more belief in psychic abilities then any form of magic. It is very much one of the sources for modern day myths and legends.
Plus it is god damn Psionics! And they kickass and really don't need that connection to our world to kickass. Though I hope they do ramp up the Pseudoscience angle in some of the other Psionic classes.
AND there are people who believe that psychic phenomena are real, therefore there's no reason to excluse the psionic power source from D&D. Thank you for proving my point.
But Psionic is a D&D word, not based on reality. Psychic phenomena are believed to be real, but nobody but D&D said that was psionic.
Since the idea of Ki preceeded Psionics by at least 2000 years, perhaps psychic phenomena really falls under the umbrella of Ki. Not the artificial name "psionics".
To the OP, I can't print a Monk PDF, WotC don't offer PDFs...
Besides, you missed the point. I am a publisher, I am not simply changing a name for my "home brew" campaign. I've got 30 pages dedicated to a product with the word "Ki" in it, designed for D&D. I have crunch behind, not just fluff, so replacing Ki with Psionics just breaks the system.
GP
But Psionic is a D&D word, not based on reality. Psychic phenomena are believed to be real, but nobody but D&D said that was psionic.
Wikipedia begs to disagree with you
Besides, you missed the point. I am a publisher, I am not simply changing a name for my "home brew" campaign. I've got 30 pages dedicated to a product with the word "Ki" in it, designed for D&D. I have crunch behind, not just fluff, so replacing Ki with Psionics just breaks the system.
My suspicion is THAT has far more to do with your upset over this than the reasons you gave so far.
I don't have DDI, so can't really comment, but that is cool i think.
THANK YOU WIZARDS!!!!!
Ok the monk is Psionic... and it makes SENSE.
[/rant]
My bet is that Elemental bites the dust next.
I agree. Just as I think Ki and Psionics are too much alike, conceptually so are elemental and arcane.
Actually they don't enchant their physical fists, they enchant a kind of "virtual weapon" (my term) that is called "monk unarmed strike" (WotC term).
This provides a clear model for soul/mind blade/knife type characters.
Not really, the concept behind the soul/mind blade/knife type characters was not just that the could create there weapon with their mind, but that the could put certain buffs or bonus damage upon it. Definitely striker esque, though I have a feeling that if we see it again it will end up as a defender.
Many of the monk powers (Twin Thunders, Fists of Golden Fire, etcetera) are similar to the self buff effects of the soul blade, in concept anyways, so the monk is a model of a sort but not the way you seem to be implying.
Wikipedia begs to disagree with you
My suspicion is THAT has far more to do with your upset over this than the reasons you gave so far.
Actually that Wikipedia post almost confirms my supposition. Psionics wasn't even used in fiction until coined as such in 1942, and then only as Psy powers. Though mentioned used in science-fiction (which I already said it was) there is no specific reference to which sci-fi book used Psionics. In the end it discusses Psionics and D&D. Wikipedia begs to agree, as I read it.
Put your suspicions aside, I've told the complete truth on why I am upset, I've got no secrets, regarding that.
GP
Besides, you missed the point. I am a publisher, I am not simply changing a name for my "home brew" campaign. I've got 30 pages dedicated to a product with the word "Ki" in it, designed for D&D. I have crunch behind, not just fluff, so replacing Ki with Psionics just breaks the system.
GP
I'm sorry, but this is absolute bull****. I too am a game developer and I am also developing my setting to be published and I know you're full of it, partially because I was planning to eliminate the Ki power source and make all Ki classes Martial or Arcane (depending on the class).
Power Source is just fluff. You can change it without changing any of the system at all. Period. All you have to do is put a small disclaimer in your classes section noting that all Psionic classes now have the Ki power source. It changes nothing. Hell, the Dungeon Master's Guide II for 3.5, a WotC product, actually advocates this exact idea.
So, basically, you're full of crap.
Except that fantasy is based around realistic or historical ideas (usually), or extrapolations of existing reality into future ideas.
Fantasy based on no true reference doesn't really exist.
At some point in history people believed in fairies, werewolves, wizards, magic, dragons, ghosts, demons, devils, etc. - it wasn't invented for the sake of fantasy. Fantasy extrapolates on reality.
So everything in D&D, all its fantastical ideas are based on some preconceived notion of reality.
Except for complete artificial, based on no history or reality, like Psionics. How in any kind of way is that better??? Besides, I think Psionics is science fiction and not fantasy at all.
Other than psionics show me anything from D&D that has no previous relationship to belief systems in the real world - it doesn't exist.
I'm so glad you wrote this. I have been looking for a reason to dump D&D since the introduction of the Owlbear and the Roper, and now, thank God, I have it. [/sarcasm]
and BTW, your claim that 'Fantasy based on no true reference doesn't really exist' is ridiculous. Fantasy doesn't really exist. THAT'S WHY IT'S CALLED FANTASY!
Actually that Wikipedia post almost confirms my supposition. Psionics wasn't even used in fiction until coined as such in 1942, and then only as Psy powers. Though mentioned used in science-fiction (which I already said it was) there is no specific reference to which sci-fi book used Psionics. In the end it discusses Psionics and D&D. Wikipedia begs to agree, as I read it.
There was no D&D in 1942.
The games not THAT old.;)
That's a BS statement if I ever heard one.
I will have my publication out in June 2009, call it BS then and it will mean just as little.
GP
There was no D&D in 1942.
The games not THAT old.;)
Your right, because "Psy powers" was thought up in 1942. "Psionics" was not used until the early 1970s, which correct me if I'm wrong is about the same time D&D came into existence...hmmm.
GP
I'm sorry, but this is absolute bull****. I too am a game developer and I am also developing my setting to be published and I know you're full of it, partially because I was planning to eliminate the Ki power source and make all Ki classes Martial or Arcane (depending on the class).
Power Source is just fluff. You can change it without changing any of the system at all. Period. All you have to do is put a small disclaimer in your classes section noting that all Psionic classes now have the Ki power source. It changes nothing. Hell, the Dungeon Master's Guide II for 3.5, a WotC product, actually advocates this exact idea.
So, basically, you're full of crap.
I am not a game developer. However, if I were, I would look at developing product that completely depends on an unconfirmed power source for the game coming out to be a gamble. One sometimes loses gambles. It's the nature of the beast.
If I lost the gamble and what I had was so completely intertwined with the idea that I couldn't just do a 'replace' in Word to my existing text, I would see it as WOTC giving me the opportunity to do it myself. YMMV.
I am not a game developer. However, if I were, I would look at developing product that completely depends on an unconfirmed power source for the game coming out to be a gamble. One sometimes loses gambles. It's the nature of the beast.
If I lost the gamble and what I had was so completely intertwined with the idea that I couldn't just do a 'replace' in Word to my existing text, I would see it as WOTC giving me the opportunity to do it myself. YMMV.
But Ki power was in fact discussed on the PH 4e, how is that a gamble to continue to develop the idea, that has only recently been killed by WotC? As a publisher, I can't wait for the developers to come up with a different twist on the game a year after they first published it, and I began its further development.
And to that OP (the publisher) you are right where I can place a disclaimer to offer my differences for a particular setting, I can completely agree with that. But that just makes my formerly core following splat book, now a completely outside system. It heavily affects marketing the product.
GP
Actually that Wikipedia post almost confirms my supposition. Psionics wasn't even used in fiction until coined as such in 1942, and then only as Psy powers. Though mentioned used in science-fiction (which I already said it was) there is no specific reference to which sci-fi book used Psionics. In the end it discusses Psionics and D&D. Wikipedia begs to agree, as I read it.
Put your suspicions aside, I've told the complete truth on why I am upset, I've got no secrets, regarding that.
GP
Again, neither was "Arcane magic" a concept until D&D came about. It was all more mystical, spitirual, more akin to Divine or Primal power source. Yet, it's now expected of D&D for Wizards and Sorcerers to cast "arcane" magic and not divine or nature spells.
Also, just because the concept wasn't COINED until then, doesn't mean it didn't exist. It simply went by other names in different cultures until the New Age movement began combining all these similar aspects together.
It's not as if in the year 1942, someone, for the first time ever, came to believe that the Human psyche was a powerful thing and could be used to access supernatural abilities.
Your right, because "Psy powers" was thought up in 1942. "Psionics" was not used until the early 1970s, which correct me if I'm wrong is about the same time D&D came into existence...hmmm.
GP
Has it occurred to you that perhaps D&D used the term because it was popular at the time, rather than popularizing the term itself? I mean, it isn't as if D&D drew on the existing works of a well-known author to make the Vancian magic system, and of course elves/dwarves/
"The theme of D&D was influenced by mythology, pulp fiction, and contemporary fantasy authors of the 1960s and 1970s. The presence of halflings, elves, dwarves, half-elves, orcs, dragons, and the like, often draw comparisons to the work of J.R.R. Tolkien. Gygax maintained that he was influenced very little by The Lord of the Rings (although the owners of that work’s copyright forced the name changes of hobbit to 'halfling', ent to 'treant', and balrog to 'Type VI demon [balor]'), stating that he included these elements as a marketing move to draw on the popularity of the work.
D&D didn't invent psionics, it used the then-recent popularity of psionics to make kids think "Aw, man, that's so cool, I wish I could move things with my mind...Hey! You can do that in D&D! I wanna play!" just like it drew on Tolkien to make kids think "Aw, man, that's so cool, I wish I could fire a bow like Legolas...Hey! You can do that in D&D! I wanna play!"
On the other hand, I do appreciate the more complete selection of at-wills compared to previous playtest articles, facilitating play with human characters.
That and the only distinction between the two is that one is pseudo-science while the other is mystical in nature.
They both boil down to the same thing... Directing internal energies through mental training to affect the outside world.
The other existing power sources are fluffed s external energies for the most part, ignoring the odd class that utilizes an internal ability.
The word "arcane" for mysteries as related to magic, was closely tied to Wizards who made demon pacts in the late medieval period. So arcane magic is almost 1000 years old. D&D didn't invent that.
GP
It's not as if in the year 1942, someone, for the first time ever, came to believe that the Human psyche was a powerful thing and could be used to access supernatural abilities.
*Nods* Heck, just look at the Spiritualism movement in the turn of the century. A huge portion of that movement was in the belief and power of psychic mediums. Then you got Harry Houdini and his award to someone to prove they had psychic powers. Various institutions were set up to study it. There is a long history and fairly large cultural impact from the idea of psychics, hell when both the Soviets and CIA looked into it, you know you got impact.
Having read the playtest, I like the idea. The powers feel like Monk powers, not like psion powers, and the concept of Mind Over Matter has long been the basis of many monastic traditions. I feel like Monks using the power of their mind to achieve nigh-superhuman physical feats is right in line with the legendary "Tibetan Monk" arcehtype that inspired that class in the first place.
The word "arcane" for mysteries as related to magic, was closely tied to Wizards who made demon pacts in the late medieval period. So arcane magic is almost 1000 years old. D&D didn't invent that.
So... The worship and belief that spirits can give you power didn't exist till oh 2008 since Primal as its catch-all term wasn't used till then?
But Ki power was in fact discussed on the PH 4e, how is that a gamble to continue to develop the idea, that has only recently been killed by WotC? As a publisher, I can't wait for the developers to come up with a different twist on the game a year after they first published it, and I began its further development.
Because the devs change their minds from time to time and it has always been thus. So until the devs say something to the effect of "Ki power will be in such and such book" its a gamble that it will ever see the light of day. Even then it might still change. I seem to recall them discussing the Druid as being a hybrid controller/striker or somesuch even after the druid had been confirmed for the PHB2. Turned out they didn't do that, either.
In short, until Ki became "official" by actually being confirmed to appear in some book or other, it was a gamble to depend on it. I'm not saying it wasn't likely, but it wasn't 100% positive either and in that sense you rolled your dice and took your chances. They came up snake eyes this time.
I was looking forward to seeing the Ki classes. So they're gonna be psionic now?
Nope. The monk is psionic. But the other "we assume they would be Ki" classes will be whatever they most closely fit.
I'll betcha:
Wu jen end up being Primal (Salla says Elemental, but I'm not sure this source will gel).
Shugenja? Divine (although Salla's bet on Elemental is reasonable).
Samurai? We've already been told it will be treated like gladiators: a "template".
Ninja? My bet is on
I suspect the monk will be the only psionic "formerly-assumed-to-be-ki" class.
So, can the monk take the Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Defense feats? They say you must be "holding" a weapon.
Of course, the unarmed strike is specifically described as having the off-hand weapon descriptor.
Psionics as I am speaking of the term is the system started by G.Gygax in 1e Players Handbook, that became thoroughly bastardized to be a different kind of magic used poorly throughout D&D's history.
If we were only discussing the idea of mental powers, well that's old as hell. But the Tower of Iron Will, Pychic manipulation, et al, this discusses D&D psionics, which is the system that I have an issue with.
Regarding spiritualism, that's about contact with the dead, and has nothing to do with Psionic powers, that's more necromancy.
GP
So, can the monk take the Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Defense feats? They say you must be "holding" a weapon.
Well, "you must have a hand free to use your monk unarmed strike" implies to me that it takes up a hand slot, which could be ruled as sort of holding a weapon. ;)
I don't know if I'd allow "holding" of two unarmed strikes, though...
Dementia 5 Publishing, is the company that I develop games with. You can think what you want I suppose, but how is you also being a developer, make what I'm doing BS?
That's a BS statement if I ever heard one.
I will have my publication out in June 2009, call it BS then and it will mean just as little.
GP
Its good to see independent developers who actually HAVE SOME SENSE are still in business. Too bad Dicefreaks shut down when WOTC dropped the 4e bomb.
Looking very much forward to your publication.
Sadly, the problem isn't elemental (a coherent thematic concept) but arcane - which bleeds all over everything. Elemental damage? Necrotic camage? Radiant damage? Power drawn from beings of the astral plane? Illusions? Teleportation? Shadows? Necromancy? Is there any power source that isn't coopted by the arcane?
You might be right on that, but Arcane is a done deal as is. So I find it likely that it will smother Elemental as a power source regardless.
Then if you don't care that the term was coined later what does Psionics even matter? It is essentially a catch-all term for psychic phenomena such as mediums, telepathy, psychokinesis, etc.
The unarmed monk will never have a weapon with as high a bonus as other people in the party if his party always has to wait for the caster with the minimum level to get his hands redone.
Totally wrong, it goes something like this:
Step 1: monk finds a weapon x many levels higher than him (what number x is really doesn't matter)
Step 2: Monk or some other party member either uses the transfer enchantment ritual or uses a scroll of said ritual
Step 3: The enchantment on the weapon is now on the monk's fists, the monk now has an enchantment of a higher level.
Problem solved and the monk can still sell the weapon with his old enchantment on it just like the fighter can sell his old sword when he finds a new one.
Ki powers have nothing to do with astral projection, psychic mediums, or psychic powers, rather to do with the mind and body powers to enable Ki classes (samurai, ninja, monk). Psionics is so completely different and broken, that it doesn't belong in core D&D and shouldn't replace core Ki.
That's my only issue.
GP
Well, "you must have a hand free to use your monk unarmed strike" implies to me that it takes up a hand slot, which could be ruled as sort of holding a weapon. ;)
I don't know if I'd allow "holding" of two unarmed strikes, though...
The problem I was considering is that monk could have each of his hands enchanted with a different magical property and also use a quarterstaff with yet another magical property. I suppose its not really a "problem", but it does give the monk some added versatility. I suppose that's not a bad thing.
EDIT: After rereading the section about unarmed strike, I think that I may be thinking of it wrong. It seems to be actually saying that a monk's "unarmed strike" encompasses his entire body, i.e. feet, hands, head, elbows, etc., and therefore could only take a single enchantment. Each hand doesn't seem to be a separate weapon. That would also mean that two-weapon fighting and defense wouldn't be possible feats.
Making all other classes able to rock flaming fists of fury!
Totally wrong, it goes something like this:
Step 1: monk finds a weapon x many levels higher than him (what number x is really doesn't matter)
Step 2: Monk or some other party member either uses the transfer enchantment ritual or uses a scroll of said ritual
Step 3: The enchantment on the weapon is now on the monk's fists, the monk now has an enchantment of a higher level.
Problem solved and the monk can still sell the weapon with his old enchantment on it just like the fighter can sell his old sword when he finds a new one.
Or you could have the DM read AV and give you Item levels as treasure.
Psionics as I am speaking of the term is the system started by G.Gygax in 1e Players Handbook, that became thoroughly bastardized to be a different kind of magic used poorly throughout D&D's history.
If we were only discussing the idea of mental powers, well that's old as hell. But the Tower of Iron Will, Pychic manipulation, et al, this discusses D&D psionics, which is the system that I have an issue with.
You're upset because you don't like one power source in D&D. You're upset because WoTC has made their own design choice which conflicts with your design choice. I understand how that might be frustrating but there's no reason to insult the concept and all of the people, like myself, who really like psionics and think that making the monk psionic is absolutely brilliant.
EDIT: Psionics is broken just by nature of its concept as a power source? I'm really not sure you have any clue at all what that word means.
Now that we know that power sources can die, I think we can stick a fork in Elemental as well. There were three basic ideas for Elemental, and the Sorcerer has already stolen one, and I don't think other two are "tenable".
1) Aristotlean element based, "Bender" concept. Use the Greek elements, assigning one or two of them per role. Fire Striker and Earth Defender, or Water/Earth Leader. Still possible, but always seemed the least likely, as it doesn't fit into the default cosmology well.
2) Placing the asian caster classes into elemental, using the Chinese/Japanese 5 elements. Possible, since shugenja and wu jen were mentioned in the DDi monk article as being placed "somewhere". I don't think there's enough traction to place them in their own power source, and what other classes do you place in the power source to make it worthwhile? Also doesn't fit in with the default cosmology. Wu jen is likely primal and shugenja divine, if they make it in.
3) Power drawn from the primordials and the Elemental Chaos, a counterpoint to Divine. I think wild sorcerer and Demonskin adept prove that WotC is willing to let arcane subsume this idea into its portfolio. I wouldn't be surprised if shadow also taps into the Elemental Chaos for a class or a few paragon paths. (As I think shadow will be counterpoint to Arcane)
You forgot one.
The world was created by the Primordials using the creationstuff of the Elemental Chaos, the World's core components are similar to the wild energies of the Elemental Chaos, and by learning to manipulate the right energy you should be able to transmute matter.
To me Elemental doesn't mean 'fire damage' but 'manipulate the basic structure of reality', i.e. Transmutation. And there's a LOT to do with that for every role.
That said, I do have to mention two things to GP: 1st. You can print the article directly as PDF when you open it or save it to your desktop/laptop as a PDF. You are paying the subscription so it does become yours upon accessing it.
AND 2nd.
While I do see Ki mentioned in the PHB it was not even confirmed back at that time. Psionics and Ki are as previously mentioned similar, regardless of the origin of Psionics(the word) this concept has been around far longer than its use in recent years. Same with Ki, Ki is an asian word meaning Metaphysical Manifestation of the soul. It is the exact same thing as Psionic/Psychic ability and often is considered(IMO) interchangeable.
As a starting game developer, not having anything yet ready for publication, I don't and won't bank on power sources that, while they were mentioned, are not confirmed. Shadow has actually been confirmed(in the FRPG & Planar Handbook) so I know i have a basis for using that in one or more of the classes in development, Elemental hasn't been confirmed, so I wont be banking on it until it does get confirmed.
At first I was a little upset about the Ki power source being scrapped, but then I read the reasoning behind that. Monks work better as psionic extensions of both physical and mental training along side natural talent.
That said, I do have to mention two things to GP: 1st. You can print the article directly as PDF when you open it or save it to your desktop/laptop as a PDF. You are paying the subscription so it does become yours upon accessing it.
AND 2nd.
While I do see Ki mentioned in the PHB it was not even confirmed back at that time. Psionics and Ki are as previously mentioned similar, regardless of the origin of Psionics(the word) this concept has been around far longer than its use in recent years. Same with Ki, Ki is an asian word meaning Metaphysical Manifestation of the soul. It is the exact same thing as Psionic/Psychic ability and often is considered(IMO) interchangeable.
As a starting game developer, not having anything yet ready for publication, I don't and won't bank on power sources that, while they were mentioned, are not confirmed. Shadow has actually been confirmed(in the FRPG & Planar Handbook) so I know i have a basis for using that in one or more of the classes in development, Elemental hasn't been confirmed, so I wont be banking on it until it does get confirmed.
True, regarding not banking on confirmed powers, but I hardly expected it to be scrapped altogether.
I am working on an oriental setting, so being Ki centric was rather important.
In that you mention how Psionics and Ki, can be interchanged idealistically, and I sort of mentioned this point earlier. Except I'm in favor of scrapping Psionics altogether and replacing that system with Ki power.
And actually I'm glad, in afterthought, that WotC did this, since I never approved of the idea of psionics, I can carry the Ki idea to new boundries, since psionics will not be part of my published setting at all. Some of which is considered psionic to core, will now be Ki with me.
GP
Time to polish those crystals and get out the tattooing needles. It's back, baby! :D
D&D psionics is my issue, not spiritualism, mental powers or any of that.
Ki powers have nothing to do with astral projection, psychic mediums, or psychic powers, rather to do with the mind and body powers to enable Ki classes (samurai, ninja, monk). Psionics is so completely different and broken, that it doesn't belong in core D&D and shouldn't replace core Ki.
That's my only issue.
GP
no, gamer printer. your the one who is broken and wrong and shouldn't be allowed to comment on these boards. your a game designer?
WHAT DID YOU PUBLISH? what is your copyright? what is the idsn for your products? do you have a website? where can I buy your games? Do you donate articles and content to other gaming companies?
If I look up "Mike mearls" freely donated stuff, articles sent into dragon, and dungeon, books, his own publishing through penumbra games...
it would be like over 50 AWESOME adventures/articles per year for the last few years.
So gee. what's your real name? who is your publisher? how much have you made from writing games?
do you know why I am asking you all this stuff?
because I have played psionic characters since 1st ed. I do know that psionics has been evolving and something of a side project for D&D. However, I had the most fun playing a 2nd edition psionic character that combined rules from:
the complete psionic handbook
the will and the way
my favorite psionicist character had clairsentience as his primary disicpline and relied heavily on the tactical use of "danger sense" and "safe path" powers. psionics worked just fine until bruce cordell.
I will never forgive him (BRC) as his 3.0 psi author interview stated: he didn't know psionics- writing psionics would be too hard- So he just copied stuff about wizards .... gods. 3.0 psi and 3.5 psi were the embarasments because it was thinly vieled magic users in drag, to include a psionic crown that had the word "staff" in it so many times it became appearant that the psionic handbooks were in the majority "cut and paste" with changes made to buzz words only. DISGUSTING.
D&D psionics is my issue, not spiritualism, mental powers or any of that.
Ki powers have nothing to do with astral projection, psychic mediums, or psychic powers, rather to do with the mind and body powers to enable Ki classes (samurai, ninja, monk). Psionics is so completely different and broken, that it doesn't belong in core D&D and shouldn't replace core Ki.
That's my only issue.
GP
Psionics is a term for a power source. How can psionics be broken? It's not even -out- yet.
I still have a bit of a knee jerk reaction to the idea that Ki concepts might all get absorbed into the Psionic power source. I feel like Ki has a steep tradition of ancient formalism and Psionic is a young upstart. It's like comparing a Japanese tea ceremony with a Starbucks power lunch. As I think more about it, however, I'm beginning to accept the change.
The change has the potential to overcome a couple of problems of past editions. Mainly, it can change how (new) Psionic and (traditional) Ki classes are viewed. These classes might now get more respect and a stronger sense of belonging in a game. The (new) Psionic classes no longer look like science fiction throwbacks with mutants that get game breaking powers. Psionic abilities are learned from training and a lifetime of developing talents. (Traditional) Ki classes are no longer just Asian ideas shoehorned into a Eurocentric game. I now feel like I can develop a good monk background that should still satisfy "high-fantasy" purists.
The change will do interesting things to future release speculations. I see the next Players' Handbook having Psionics and Shadow power sources only (the assassin's article and some hopes fuel this suspicion). I wouldn't be surprised to see the ninja (shadow striker), the monk (psionic striker), and the samurai (psionic controller that has many Jedi-esc powers). This could lead to the possibility of a campaign setting with some Asian themes (kind of like a 4E Oriental Adventures book).
Like Gameprimer, I was a little upset that, of the two names, Psionics beat out Ki, but I think I'll get over it and will still buy books from Wizards (because, like it or not, I think they made a wise choice).
I could point to an issue of dragon magazine that had "fix it" material as chewed up feats,,, which had to be purchased to fix numerous rule issues, to an older psionics message board wich included the same content posted mysteriously before the BRC dragon articles and the 5 PDFs...
to sumarize what happened with 3.0 psionics:
"here's your book. $40 please"
"oh, it's broken you say?"
"well buy these books I madewith content I stole from the WOTC message boards".
"by the way, I plagurized the whole thing to begin with"...
Did I have a right to be mad? yup, I definately did.
especially when BRC insisted psionic characters were clerics but didn't know it. that they (all psionic characters) were actually priests of a cosmic lump of quartz...
So yes. I can point at something and say THAT WAS BULL.
I can luagh in the face of those who whine about 3.0 psionics being to powerful and read the BRC author interview over again in my head, especially that part about how he JUST COPIED FROM WIZZARDS...
Was 3.0/3.5 psi broken? oh heck yeah! because it wasn't psionics to begin with...
you on the other hand did not offer anything but random crying.
THERE WILL BE NO NEW SYSTEM FOR PSIONICS.
Psionics is the THEME for a class that uses the SAME POWER SYSTEM as all other classes. Psionics will not be broken. You will not roll to see if you are psychically attuned. You will not have power points.
I repeat. Psionics is a FLAVOR for a set of classes that will likely include a striker, defender, controller, and leader, like all the other power sources. There is NO CAUSE FOR ALARM.
Nope. The monk is psionic. But the other "we assume they would be Ki" classes will be whatever they most closely fit.
I'll betcha wu jen end up being Primal.
Shugenja? Divine.
Samurai? We've already been told it will be treated like gladiators: a "template".
Ninja? My bet is on Arcane.
I suspect the monk will be the only psionic "formerly-assumed-to-be-ki" class.
I'm still thinking elemental for Shugenjas and Wu Jen and Shadow for ninjas.
It's really sad to see the Ki power source go -- I was looking forward to seeing the Ki classes. So they're gonna be psionic now? That sounds like a bad joke.
In fact, I can see where this is going, and it really does sound like something my gaming group would joke about. Just wait until the Ninja class comes out. And the Spelljammer campaign setting. When that happens, munchkins everywhere will have their fondest dreams fulfilled.
They'll finally be able to play 100% official, non-homeruled, completely-by-the-book, RPGA-approved:ShowPSIONIC NINJAS...IN SPAAAAAAAACE!!!
Shoving all asian-themed classes in one power source is silly and slightly vulgar.
Meh. I really think people were making way too big a deal about all that.
Meh. I really think people were making way too big a deal about all that.
But it'd be like putting the Paladin, Barbarian, and Wizard in one power group, in all seriousness.
Ninja, monk, samurai, wu jen, etc. all make much more sense in differing power groups. Just because they come from a common mythology doesn't mean you should group them in one power source.
I just have to repeat this.
THERE WILL BE NO NEW SYSTEM FOR PSIONICS.
Psionics is the THEME for a class that uses the SAME POWER SYSTEM as all other classes. Psionics will not be broken. You will not roll to see if you are psychically attuned. You will not have power points.
I repeat. Psionics is a FLAVOR for a set of classes that will likely include a striker, defender, controller, and leader, like all the other power sources. There is NO CAUSE FOR ALARM.
Not even an Everything's OK Alarm?
What you said is spot on. It's just a Power Source. It doesn't mean a Monk "will have psionics" or that there won't be a "pseudo-scientific" class.
Just so we're clear,I hope that everyone knows that real life clerics couldnt actually shoot lasers, real wizards couldn't actually shoot fireballs (or do anything), real druids couldn't actually turn into an animal (I know, I was shocked too when I found out), and real barbarians actually die when they get stabbed. It's a game that exaggerates bits of real life to a great extent to form an alternate reality. Compared to an entire power source being contingent on a loosely defined term called 'arcane magic,' monks using their minds to manifest powers psionically (or PSIONOCALLY) really shouldn't be much of a stretch.
Especially considering the root word, psy-, refers to the mind and mental capabilities, which even real life monks train to focus and sharpen. Makes perfect sense. Meditation and contemplation.
Secondly, the fact that Ki is thousands of years old, is a good reason to let it go the way of the Dodo. Doing something just because they've always done it that way is stupid. Now, if it works best, then great. Ki does not work best. When you take out the wire-fu garbage (which I hope they have), there's little left to distinguish it from psionics (though I may name a character Psionoc in the future, thanks). Everything outside of the wire-fu basically counts as psionics anyway. The only difference being the idea that something comes from the soul instead of the mind. To me, that counts as no difference at all.
Thirdly, psionics as part of the game have been evolving for some time. Considering that Ki has nothing but culture and wire-fu to separate it from psionics, and psionics has evolved a great deal and will be included in the 4e power sources, it makes sense to fold Ki into Psionics.
Fourthly, I haven't read the article...so did they SAY Ki was out, or just that the Monk will be psionic instead of Ki? Because, I gotta say, you people get things wrong when it comes to articles...A LOT.
First off, in the previous editions, psionics was always a separate system that always seemed to break the standard system. You CANNOT use that as justification that psionics in 4e will be broken. In 4e, psionics will be powers just like every other power source. There's nothing to break unless they make every power like Blade Cascade. Which of course, they won't.
Secondly, the fact that Ki is thousands of years old, is a good reason to let it go the way of the Dodo. Doing something just because they've always done it that way is stupid. Now, if it works best, then great. Ki does not work best. When you take out the wire-fu garbage (which I hope they have), there's little left to distinguish it from psionics (though I may name a character Psionoc in the future, thanks). Everything outside of the wire-fu basically counts as psionics anyway. The only difference being the idea that something comes from the soul instead of the mind. To me, that counts as no difference at all.
Thirdly, psionics as part of the game have been evolving for some time. Considering that Ki has nothing but culture and wire-fu to separate it from psionics, and psionics has evolved a great deal and will be included in the 4e power sources, it makes sense to fold Ki into Psionics.
Fourthly, I haven't read the article...so did they SAY Ki was out, or just that the Monk will be psionic instead of Ki? Because, I gotta say, you people get things wrong when it comes to articles...A LOT.
It's implied. They say it's not tenable, and that the ninja would work better in one power source, the wu jen in another, and the samurai as a template for other classes...
I don't mind mixing Psionics and Ki together but...I think they should have found another name than psionic for the power source, like Aura or something...to me it just brings to mind the idea of a telepath or telekinesist, not some character who can channel is very life force ya know?
I just have to repeat this.
THERE WILL BE NO NEW SYSTEM FOR PSIONICS.
Psionics is the THEME for a class that uses the SAME POWER SYSTEM as all other classes. Psionics will not be broken. You will not roll to see if you are psychically attuned. You will not have power points.
I repeat. Psionics is a FLAVOR for a set of classes that will likely include a striker, defender, controller, and leader, like all the other power sources. There is NO CAUSE FOR ALARM.
If its all fluff, then why announce that Ki is untenable, and Psionics is the choice. How could anything be untenable if its only a word and has no meaning to the mechanics of a power source. It shouldn't make a difference if its only a source word. Why go to the trouble of using a different power source? If what you say is true, it makes even less sense to change it.
GP
I've never allowed psionics in games I DM. If WotC, wants to replace realistic beliefs with smurf-ideas, that's fine, but leaves no place for me to participate. So I too, think 4e is leaving me, rather than me leaving it.
Having read each of your posts, it's obvious this is the issue. You've never liked psionics. You've been clear about that, so I don't think I'm going out on a limb, in that regard. Do you concede, at least, that the change does make sense, regardless of what you may have preferred?
Monks as psionicist?! That's completely stupid.
I'd have to disagree, obviously. Many have already made the case, so I won't retread all that ground. I think it makes a lot of sense. I'm very happy that they elected to go this route, rather than forcing a Ki Power Source that they view as untenable.
Based on world beliefs, I'd say, drop psionics into the toilet where it belongs and replace all ideas of psionics with Ki. That makes much more sense. If you think about the reality of psionics, is actually the power of the mind and body which is the definition of Ki. Psionics is Ki, not the other way around.
So very little of DnD is realistic, why should this be a big deal? The fact that most here agree with the change, and/or don't care enough to even comment, shows that the developers didn't screw up to badly. They provide a rules framework. Don't let semantics ruin the game for you. You outright stated an equivalency above (post#68). Use "Ki" if it's a big deal for you. As many like to say, the WotC Ninja Clan will not invade your home. (If they've become Psionic Ninja, though, they may be p*ssed enough to do so...)
If its all fluff, then why announce that Ki is untenable, and Psionics is the choice. How could anything be untenable if its only a word and has no meaning to the mechanics of a power source. It shouldn't make a difference if its only a source word. Why go to the trouble of using a different power source? If what you say is true, it makes even less sense to change it.
GP
My guess is that it was untenable because they couldn't come up with at least 4 classes that would use Ki as a power source. Rather than give us a half-butted class or two to pad the Ki Power book, cards, and miniatures, they decided just to move the pending Ki classes to other sources, which may eliminate half-butted classes from them.
I think anyone who doesn't have an unlimited source of funds would like this.
My guess is that it was untenable because they couldn't come up with at least 4 classes that would use Ki as a power source. Rather than give us a half-butted class or two to pad the Ki Power book, cards, and miniatures, they decided just to move the pending Ki classes to other sources, which may eliminate half-butted classes from them.
I think anyone who doesn't have an unlimited source of funds would like this.
I like it regardless of funds on hand. I don't want something forced or half-baked. Everything's been of such high quality thus far, I'd hate to start seeing poop-on-a-stick products. If they find a way to make Ki work down the road, that's great.
If they're saying it's presently untenable, I'm sure it is. If there were presently a way to develop a Ki Power Source, why wouldn't they? They do want to sell us as many books as possible, do they not?
But it'd be like putting the Paladin, Barbarian, and Wizard in one power group, in all seriousness.
Ninja, monk, samurai, wu jen, etc. all make much more sense in differing power groups. Just because they come from a common mythology doesn't mean you should group them in one power source.
That's an incredibly good point, Celtic. It's pretty much taking all of one nation's history/mythology, converting them into Character Classes, and then saying, "They're obviously all using the same Power Source!" While much of the Monk and Samurai ideals cross over with Mind Over Matter, Ninjas couldn't care less for meditation or serene battle forms. They're completely at odds with one another.
But Psionic is a D&D word, not based on reality. Psychic phenomena are believed to be real, but nobody but D&D said that was psionic.
"Psionics is the study and/or practice of using the mind to induce paranormal phenomena. Examples of this include telepathy, telekinesis and other workings of the outside world through the psyche. The topic is widely discussed in fiction. B. P. Wiesner and Robert H. Thouless first proposed the term "psi" in 1942 as a more general term to include both extrasensory perception and psychokinesis. The original terminology proposal divided psi into psi-gamma, for cases of cognition, and psi-kappa, for cases of action. These terms were later modified into "passive psi" and "active psi". Later, John W. Campbell proposed the term "psionics", from psi (psyche) + electronics (machine), which implied that the powers of the mind could be made to work reliably."
God bless Wikipedia.
It's really sad to see the Ki power source go -- I was looking forward to seeing the Ki classes. So they're gonna be psionic now? That sounds like a bad joke.
In fact, I can see where this is going, and it really does sound like something my gaming group would joke about. Just wait until the Ninja class comes out. And the Spelljammer campaign setting. When that happens, munchkins everywhere will have their fondest dreams fulfilled.
They'll finally be able to play 100% official, non-homeruled, completely-by-the-book, RPGA-approved:ShowPSIONIC NINJAS...IN SPAAAAAAAACE!!!
That's an incredibly good point, Celtic. It's pretty much taking all of one nation's history/mythology, converting them into Character Classes, and then saying, "They're obviously all using the same Power Source!" While much of the Monk and Samurai ideals cross over with Mind Over Matter, Ninjas could care less for meditation or serene battle forms. They're completely at odds with one another.
Agreed. Hell, the martial arts monk and the ninja don't even really come from the same culture (martial arts Shaolin monks being something more of a Chinese concept, while Ninjas are most obviously Japanese). I think they were both plugged into Ki because Ki was the word used to describe both classes in the last edition (if I remember right, Ninjas even got Ki points to spend on abilities). It was just a carry-over, and something I'm not too sad to see gone.
First, they could come up with a strong unifying motif for elemental classes, something strong enough that if you read the mechanics of a class with the power source keyword cut out, it's pretty clear what's elemental and what's not.
Second, they could want to avoid having to print Arcane Power 3 with support for nine classes or whatever. If for some reason the Wu Jen needs to exist (and I'm not sure it does), it'd help to not have to support it on top of the already large number of arcane classes (six and counting) in every Arcane Power book.
You know, the PHB3 or AV3 could easily have handwraps, gloves, brass knuckles, or other such items to cover the treasure drop issue. Even if such isn't already in the works, I'm sure they'll add it based on feedback, no biggie. This is a playtest article, after all, I wouldn't necessarily expect all the mechanical aspects fully fleshed out. If something important is missing, just send them some feedback to let them know. I'm more concerned about the level 22 utility powers, which seem to be a more difficult oversight to work around if you're going to play test this class at epic levels.
On the other hand, I do appreciate the more complete selection of at-wills compared to previous playtest articles, facilitating play with human characters.
Or they could make them proficient with spiked gauntlets. :D
Ninjas could care less for meditation or serene battle forms.
No they couldn't.
Ninjas couldn't care less for meditation or serene battle forms. It is not possible for them to care less than they currently do.(Sorry, CL. This and "not hardly" are my two biggest pet peeves when it comes to grammar and idiom.)
By the way, I hated psionics AND ki in previous editions. After seeing the new monk, I am, for the first time, excited about the psionic power source.
I really like that they are keeping monks somewhat ethnically neutral. I hate it that authors so often fall into the trap of describing cultures inspired by asian cultural concepts as having, say "almond-shaped eyes". It just strikes me as a bit stereotyped. I think Ki had a lot of negative baggage in that regard. I mean, what's the difference between psionics and ki? If psionics is already channeling your inner mental strength, what's ki... channeling your inner asian strength? That's just... dumb.
You forgot one.
The world was created by the Primordials using the creationstuff of the Elemental Chaos, the World's core components are similar to the wild energies of the Elemental Chaos, and by learning to manipulate the right energy you should be able to transmute matter.
To me Elemental doesn't mean 'fire damage' but 'manipulate the basic structure of reality', i.e. Transmutation. And there's a LOT to do with that for every role.
That's a fair point, I think you could come up with 4 classes with that concept. Of course, I thought that about Ki also.
Your right, because "Psy powers" was thought up in 1942. "Psionics" was not used until the early 1970s, which correct me if I'm wrong is about the same time D&D came into existence...hmmm.
GP
Near as I can tell, the term 'psionics' was coined by John W. Campbell, Jr. The earliest reference I can find is his editorial "The Science of Psionics" published in the February 1956 issue of Astounding Science Fiction. The word combines psi + electronics and was meant to imply that the powers of the mind could be made to work reliably. So the term predated D&D by close to 20 years.
The study of psi in western culture has always been heavily influenced by eastern philosophy so there is a huge amount of overlap between the concepts of ki and psi. Overall, I don't see any real problems with the switch. Outside of the Monk, the best candidates for the Ki power source were probably the psionic classes anyways - the other oriental classes are better fits for other power sources (where they're distinct enough to warrant their own class). I like the idea of incorporating Incarnum - but I see no reason why Incarnum couldn't be its own power source and not just lumped into Ki to flesh it out.
Or they could make them proficient with spiked gauntlets. :D
Technically speaking, aren't monks already proficient with spiked gauntlets? Obviously, monks are proficient in unarmed, and according to AV, spiked gauntlets are of the unarmed weapon group...
They still use some weapons, They still use armor and other items, They very much still use money; so the way I see it, if your monk doesn't want what the DM dishs out, thats your problem.
I don't see any reason why a DM couldn't keep a monk player just as happy as all the others.
Did someone earlier in the thread imply that they actually believe in ki? Oh gawd.
To be fair, no, but he apparently is having a problem with psionics over ki because the fact that the word 'ki' has been around longer than psionics (not even the concept behind the word. Apparently it all boils down to how long the word itself has existed) somehow automagically makes ki 'realistic' and psionics a 'smurf concept'.
I don't get it either.
The idea of what Ki is - is ancient and directly applies to what a Ki class such as Samurai, Ninja, or Monk entails.
To suddenly decide, no its not Ki, its psionics, the force or any other name doesn't fit, and one has to justify how is it that psionics is the same thing as Ki, when its not.
I don't believe in Ki as an actual force or inner power, that manifests in magical events or occurences. However, most practicing martial artists are taught the ideas of Ki, which is part of the inner strength required to endure pain, or to perform explosive martial arts actions.
There are many people who believe in this concept.
The idea of Ki giving you any true "magic power" is a cartoon idea introduced by Manga/Anime in the last 20 years or so. That kind of power is as fake as D&D Psionics or Arcane systems.
GP
Ki/Chi is a concept that comes from the spirit and the body.
Psionic powers is a concept that comes from the mind.
To elaborate further, I can easily picture a number of characters using Ki/Chi, but I could never picture a total moron using Psionic powers. And further, that Ki/Chi would be accessible to most people with the proper training - but that being psychic seems like one of those things you'd just have to be born with. I can accept a fantasy setting where you can teach yourself magic, but to teach yourself to be psychic seems a little out there to me, despite the similarity of the concepts. I guess its because Ki and Magic would both operate purely by a spiritual means - which we can't quantify. On the other hand, the abilities of the brain are pretty quantifiable.
Thematically, they're very different. As noted earlier, the only place I can think of where they seriously overlap is Star Wars - but 4th Edition is snatching lots of ideas from the Star Wars RPG, so I guess we shouldn't be that surprised, but could we at least get a lightsaber up in here?
It strains my suspension of disbelief, and to me seems like its cribbing way too much from Star Wars.
I don't mind mixing Psionics and Ki together but...I think they should have found another name than psionic for the power source, like Aura or something...to me it just brings to mind the idea of a telepath or telekinesist, not some character who can channel is very life force ya know?
I highly agree that the power source name needs to be changed from simply Psionic to Mental, Aura, Spirit, or Soul.
So I guess now instead of martial artists, Monks are Jedi Knights without the lightsaber.
Maybe they could just change the name of Psionic to The Force.
"May the Psionic Be With You" just doesn't have the same ring to it.
Psionics is about affecting the mind (expect lots of charm, fear, and illusions), and also a certain degree of psychokinetic manipulation (pushes, pulls, slides, shifts, etc...en masse in bursts and blasts). That's it. The only reason they'll get ANY sort of teleportation, is because almost all of the classes get at least some sort of teleportation powers.
You can pay to get your weapons (unarmed strikes for monks) enchanted by someone in town just like you can buy magic items of your level or lower. If no one in the party has the ritual, someone in town will. If no one in town does, you're DM is a jerk.
Psionics is about affecting the mind (expect lots of charm, fear, and illusions), and also a certain degree of psychokinetic manipulation (pushes, pulls, slides, shifts, etc...en masse in bursts and blasts). That's it. The only reason they'll get ANY sort of teleportation, is because almost all of the classes get at least some sort of teleportation powers.
Psionics seems a lot more broad than the Mind now, and seems to be a generic sort of manipulation of spirit energy inside of people.
Like... PH3? Highly doubtful we'll see more than the monk before then.
But, and this apparently will need to be repeated many times in many threads before people get it into their heads, there IS no "system" for psionics. It's just a power source, and all that means in 4e is a bit of flavor, some fluff, a handful of thematic connections. There is practically zero crunch that ties the classes of a certain power source together.
Dunno if the tone was intentional, and if not, appologies, but if this is the kinda attitude I can expect to catch for a simple friggin' question, then I guess I've got nothin further to say 'round these parts. Good day!
GP
Well, after months of arguing about it, I finally have all the evidence I need. Dungeons and Dragons fourth edition is now World of Warcraft. Goodbye, DnD. I'm going to miss you.
Besides the fact that monks don't exist in WoW at all, Psionic Monks have existed since the Wizardry series in the 80s, if not earlier.
Now many people might say "but ki involves the soul, not the mind!" but really, in D&D one's soul has all of the characteristics that one's mind has in RL-it contains one's personality, their will to live, etc. So there isn't a whole lot of difference in practical terms, beyond which methods will shut each one down.
Thirdly, this variety of monk opens itself to a wider variety of concepts than the "pseudo-asian ascetic" while still keeping the option of a Shaolin-style monk open through builds and power selection. And one should always try to encompass a variety of concepts in a single class-if you can't imagine anyone other than members of one particular culture being members of a class then (barring a strange campaign setting) it shouldn't be a full class.
I do not favor the transition.
Wait, they got rid of ki altogether?
It makes sense because it might be hard to think of other ki classes.
They also don't have to make as many psionic classes now.
I still do not favor the transition.
Martial: Using the body and skill to affect reality
Arcane: This varies by class but they seem to be split into two types, one which (like wizards and warlocks) uses a combination of skill and borrowed or stolen power and others (like the sorcerer and some warlocks) who are born with the power.
Divine: The use of belief to affect reality.
Primal: The use of the spirits to affect reality.
Nomads will be gone. The ONLY reason there were teleportation psychic powers was because Bruce Cordell copied Wizards and Sorcerers instead of making a unique psionic flavor. Hopefully, all that stupid ectoplasmic crap will go away too.
Psionics is about affecting the mind (expect lots of charm, fear, and illusions), and also a certain degree of psychokinetic manipulation (pushes, pulls, slides, shifts, etc...en masse in bursts and blasts). That's it. The only reason they'll get ANY sort of teleportation, is because almost all of the classes get at least some sort of teleportation powers.
You can pay to get your weapons (unarmed strikes for monks) enchanted by someone in town just like you can buy magic items of your level or lower. If no one in the party has the ritual, someone in town will. If no one in town does, you're DM is a jerk.
Psionic teleportation powers existed looooooong before Bruce Cordell started writing for WotC. They existed in 2e Psionics, they existed in Aeon/Trinity, they exist in comics. Psionics is about a whole lot more than you're trying to limit it to. It's definitely more than Telepathy, Empathy, and basic Psychokinesis.
Psionics seems a lot more broad than the Mind now, and seems to be a generic sort of manipulation of spirit energy inside of people.
Besides the Ghostwalker Paragon Path though, there is no mention of spirits or souls, etc. The Monk states he harnesses the mind and body, no spirit energy.
The transition of monk to psionic makes sense.
I do not favor the transition.
Wait, they got rid of ki altogether?
It makes sense because it might be hard to think of other ki classes.
They also don't have to make as many psionic classes now.
I still do not favor the transition.
I do somewhat agree with the OP in that psionics have alwyas been kind of an odd-fit for a pure fantasy campaign (mind you, my preferences tend to be post-modernist so that is more a plus than a negative). I like that the inclusion of the monk into the psionic power source not only provides more options for the monk, but also seems to smooth psionics out so that it doesn't jar with the traditional setting as much. The monk essentialy 'was' the ki power source - including the monk into the psionic power source gives it a lot more depth and potential.
Asian culture alone is not a valid reason to make a class whose flavor is intended for ALL cultures within the game. Frankly, I think monk should get a different name for that very reason...and samurai are at best, non-divine paladins...and ninjas are really just rogues or assassins once you take away the asian influence. Now, I don't LIKE that really, but that doesn't make it any less true. Better to have a truth we don't like, than a lie that might ruin the game.
And who cares if Ki has been an accepted concept for a longer period of time? That's here. In the worlds of D&D it's no older or more well-known than any other power source. It is such that it's nature is not enough to distinguish effects related to that source from the effects of another source...in this case, psionics. Now...why did psionics get to eat ki? Simple...psionics in general is more popular. Everyone loving monks doesn't add up to how much psionics fans liked everything about psionics. The only Ki classes that ever existed anyway were Monk, Samurai, and Ninja. Samurai by 4e's definition are not Ki anymore...ninja weren't likely to be ki anyway...and monks are obviously NOT ki anymore. There's nothing left but incarnum for Ki, and they may as well just call the power source incarnum in that case, IF they even bring it back. Wu-Jen, Shugenja, and whatever else was mentioned, are neither ki nor elemental. They're arcanists or god-mongers with a specialty in elements...which is not good enough to earn a separate power source.
Now...how many of these friggin threads to we really need? Can we get these snowballed together so they're not cluttering up the boards with their nonsense?
Totally wrong, it goes something like this:
...
Step 2: Monk or some other party member either uses the transfer enchantment ritual or uses a scroll of said ritual
...
Problem solved...
Actually, this is pretty much a non-problem, just have your DM read the Adventurer's Vault section on awarding item levels as treasure.
Not wrong and not solved if you can't use AV. Both of these solutions assume that you have Adventurer's Vault and that your DM allows it (one of my DMs doesnt). Running the "levels as treasure" solution also assumes your DM is nice enough to allow an alternate rule that changes how he runs his game.
You can't say that the problem doesn't exist when the solution requires use of a book that isn't in the PHB or DMG or the source where the monk is actually printed. I can't use the AV in some games i play in since the DM doesn't allow what he doesn't own, and the monk's unarmed enhancement will lag behind without houserules or higher level NPCs always available for rituals in those games. Its kinda lame unless they put some kind of fix in the PHB3.
If its all fluff, then why announce that Ki is untenable, and Psionics is the choice. How could anything be untenable if its only a word and has no meaning to the mechanics of a power source. It shouldn't make a difference if its only a source word. Why go to the trouble of using a different power source? If what you say is true, it makes even less sense to change it.
GP
Power sources do in some cases have a slight connection between the fluff and the crunch. For example Divine spells often doing Radiant damage, or Martial powers seldom being area bursts at range, that sort of thing.
And just because something is fluff doesn't mean that it can't be internally consistent. The classes in a power source have to somehow "feel" like they belong together.
What "ki is untenable" means is that they couldn't come up with any fluff for it that would tie together as many as 4 concepts for classes.
Now, I'm sure you will cry that this is a lack of imagination on the designers' part. You will probably also try to twist my words to fit your own perceptions. I don't expect much from someone who is designing a 4e product for publication, yet makes blatantly nonsensical statements like "psionics is broken". In fact, most every post you've written shows a basic lack of understanding of how D&D works these days.
Psionic teleportation powers existed looooooong before Bruce Cordell started writing for WotC. They existed in 2e Psionics, they existed in Aeon/Trinity, they exist in comics. Psionics is about a whole lot more than you're trying to limit it to. It's definitely more than Telepathy, Empathy, and basic Psychokinesis.
Then in that case, psionics is covered by pre-existing power sources and should be thrown away as well. Because all of those things are things that other power sources do in spades. All that's left is excessive psychic damage, fear, charm, and the like...along with more pushes, pulls and slides than any other power source. Otherwise you're just playing a funky wizard...AGAIN.
Possible, sure...but I'd prefer it not be the case, and I still blame Cordell for how bad it's gotten recently. I mean...he just refluffed the arcane classes...that's supremely lazy. More so than the homebrew garbage I find on the forums...which is saying something because most of it's some real crap.
Truthfully...I could survive it though...as long as they ditch crystals and ectoplasm. Crystals have always been a part of that new age garbage, and I understand that...but ectoplasm has nothing to do with psychic abilities except for when the con artists out there like John Edwards claim that talking to ghosts supposedly means you're psychic. Speaking of which, hasn't anyone shot that Edwards nimrod yet?
Not wrong and not solved if you can't use AV. Both of these solutions assume that you have Adventurer's Vault and that your DM allows it (one of my DMs doesnt). Running the "levels as treasure" solution also assumes your DM is nice enough to allow an alternate rule that changes how he runs his game.
You can't say that the problem doesn't exist when the solution requires use of a book that isn't in the PHB or DMG or the source where the monk is actually printed. I can't use the AV in some games i play in since the DM doesn't allow what he doesn't own, and the monk's unarmed enhancement will lag behind without houserules or higher level NPCs always available for rituals in those games. Its kinda lame unless they put some kind of fix in the PHB3.
Sounds like you won't be using the monk anyway, since that DM doesn't own the book. So you're right, the problem isn't solved...because there isn't a problem. If he's letting you playtest the Monk...then he'll need to be more flexible. Aside from that...good luck. I can't help ya, I can't afford DDI.
I've never cared for the past "point based spell system" mixed with other kinds of "magic", that gave them some exclusive advantage that no spellcaster could match. And created an enormous headache for DMs. This is what I've experienced. Perhaps WotC got smart and fixed it altogether (though I'm not optimistic) Psionicists are "coming soon", they are not here yet, and I can only base my understand on 30 years of D&D, its hard to see it differently.
Using my "perceived" (perhaps wrongly) idea of psionics, replacing my understanding of Ki, which I still think is spiritual energy, not divine and not brain power - especially as I'm developing a distinctly Japanese setting for pubication, burns my months of effort involving Ki as a mechanic in my game.
I will end my rant on this.
GP
Then in that case, psionics is covered by pre-existing power sources and should be thrown away as well. Because all of those things are things that other power sources do in spades. All that's left is excessive psychic damage, fear, charm, and the like...along with more pushes, pulls and slides than any other power source. Otherwise you're just playing a funky wizard...AGAIN.
Anti-4e detractors say the same thing about the Martial power source, or Primal/Divine. Similar power effects doesn't mean the classes are going to be the same at all.
You can't say that the problem doesn't exist when the solution requires use of a book that isn't in the PHB or DMG or the source where the monk is actually printed. I can't use the AV in some games i play in since the DM doesn't allow what he doesn't own, and the monk's unarmed enhancement will lag behind without houserules or higher level NPCs always available for rituals in those games. Its kinda lame unless they put some kind of fix in the PHB3.
You're just whining for the sake of whining, aren't you?
I've already explained (several times, I think) how your DM is perfectly free, within the rules of the DMG (no other sources needed), to hand out rewards in any way, shape or form he pleases. If a parcel calls for a magic item of Level+n, nothing says it has to be a "found" item, it can just as easily be an enchantment offered as a reward by the adventurers' employer. A DM who doesn't realize this is either a jerk or simply unintelligent. Either way, I wouldn't play with them.
Obviously the various types of Psychokenesis will probably be divided up amongst the different classes.
Also Mediums could very well be their own class, depending on whether WoTC feels it hits on Shadow too much or not.
It's easy to see his logic. It's because he was wrong about monks being ki, he's angry, and dnd=wow is his scapegoat topic.
Monks being psionic makes perfect sense and blindsighted the community in a wonderful way. I'm as big of a fan of 'PSIONOC' as the next guy, so I'm happy.
I personally assumed the Monk would be Ki. I was wrong so what. I stayed up past midnight to take a look at the Monk Playtest, even though I had to work at 5:30 in the morning.
At first I thought what are they thinking. But the more I looked the playtest over and thought about it, it was not a stretch in my mind. I loved the concept of Psionicas and I love the monk, it works in my mind.
The monk essentialy 'was' the ki power source - including the monk into the psionic power source gives it a lot more depth and potential.
That's what I was trying to say.
Now...how many of these friggin threads to we really need? Can we get these snowballed together so they're not cluttering up the boards with their nonsense?
Agreed.
D&D psionics is my issue, not spiritualism, mental powers or any of that.
Ki powers have nothing to do with astral projection, psychic mediums, or psychic powers, rather to do with the mind and body powers to enable Ki classes (samurai, ninja, monk). Psionics is so completely different and broken, that it doesn't belong in core D&D and shouldn't replace core Ki.
That's my only issue.
GP
Psionics in 3.5 was probably more balanced than either arcane or divine magic, and if something that has been a part of D&D since 1e & the mid-late 70s doesn't belong in D&D, then what does?
Maybe WotC intends for it to apply to monks, and maybe it should apply to monks, but as written it does not apply to monks. The only ritual that does is the one explicitly called out as applying, and that's Enchant Magic Item. If you feel that the wording of the "Unarmed Combatant" entry should be altered to treat the monk's unarmed strike as a weapon for the purposes of all rituals which apply to weapons or objects, you should say so in feedback to this playtest article. But as of right now, it does not count as a weapon for any ritual other than the one ritual they specified.
Time and Space can be another focus for Psionics. There is many stories, terminology oriented around the idea of psychics having clairvoyance, being able to see into the past and future, astral projection, etc. ESP in general essentially.
Clairvoyance, Precognition/Postcognition, Psychometry, Empathy, Telepathy, Mind Control, Psychokinesis, Pyrokinesis, and Teleportation are the core fictional psychic powers. So just limit them to those 9 fields and keep Rituals away from them and we might actually have a little balance.
I really don't see how any of those apply to monks outside of Precognition, though.
Psionics and Ki can go together. Mind and spirit are separate because people feel they need to be. They do NOT need to be, so now they no longer are.
Asian culture alone is not a valid reason to make a class whose flavor is intended for ALL cultures within the game. Frankly, I think monk should get a different name for that very reason...and samurai are at best, non-divine paladins...and ninjas are really just rogues or assassins once you take away the asian influence. Now, I don't LIKE that really, but that doesn't make it any less true. Better to have a truth we don't like, than a lie that might ruin the game.
You do realize that Paladin is a western cultural construct right?
and ninjas are really just rogues or assassins once you take away the asian influence.
And the supernatural illusion and elemental powers.
Clairvoyance, Precognition/Postcognition, Psychometry, Empathy, Telepathy, Mind Control, Psychokinesis, Pyrokinesis, and Teleportation are the core fictional psychic powers. So just limit them to those 9 fields and keep Rituals away from them and we might actually have a little balance.
I really don't see how any of those apply to monks outside of Precognition, though.
I could almost see the argument for making the ESP powers (Clairvoyance, Pre/Post-Cog, etc.), at least the extended use ones, rituals instead of utilities. Almost.
I could almost see the argument for making the ESP powers (Clairvoyance, Pre/Post-Cog, etc.), at least the extended use ones, rituals instead of utilities. Almost.
I'm thinking the non-combat utility powers will be easier to use but have more limited application than Arcane counterparts.
I could almost see the argument for making the ESP powers (Clairvoyance, Pre/Post-Cog, etc.), at least the extended use ones, rituals instead of utilities. Almost.
It would fit well with the feeling of Ritual, having to concentrate using focusing material, etc. You can have Psionic characters having Remote Viewing and drawing what they see or describing it. Or gleaming knowledge from the psychic residue left on objects (psychometry), etc.
Hmm... Rituals could be another way to bring back psychic combat too actually.
Here are some ideas to start:
[INDENT]Disciple of Shaolin: uses Chi power source
Ronin: Uses Ki power source
Samuri: Uses Ki Power Source
Mongol Archer[/INDENT]
Yeah, Samurai never had a non-Asian cultural equivalent in the entire series until Warlord was introduced, and that's pretty much them. Whatever you think, Samurai were more than just fighters (that was peasant work) and less than Paladins (they certainly were never associated with holy powers aside from magical blades).
I've never seen samurai as anything but highly focused soldiers.
And the supernatural illusion and elemental powers.
Which ninjas never had.
-
Now, as for how they might be in fantasy...all I know about ninjas was that they were believed to be able to walk through walls and dissappear in plain view...with perhaps a dash of seeming to be in multiple places at once.
As for samurai, if they become mystical, they'll end up like paladins...mystically devoted to a given cause through mostly martial prowess augmented by some kind of spiritual commitment. Reflavored paladins, at best.
Ninjas couldn't do anything that a sufficiently magicked-up rogue can now do.
Both would be toe-stepping of the worst sort. The Wu-Jen and Shugenja would be elemental source over ki, and they won't be elemental because elemental is a meaningless source. Everything elementalists could do is already done by other sources.
That's one of the primary reasons I'm hoping Psionics skips out on fireball-style powers...because they're already possessed by other sources...in spades. Mind-affecting powers are the way to go with psionics if they want to have any hope of making it unique. Which I've never felt it has been in the previous editions...it's just that 3.x was the worst.
I have the book in front me as I write. Special ability list: Mask mind to ESP, Telepathic and mind blast attacks are reduced due to mental discipline, Self healing, Quivering Palm attack. What WotC has done is go back to the roots of the game... way, way, way, before WOW ever existed... *shrugs*
I don't mind mixing Psionics and Ki together but...I think they should have found another name than psionic for the power source, like Aura or something...to me it just brings to mind the idea of a telepath or telekinesist, not some character who can channel is very life force ya know?
Oh well...
In the end we might indeed see Arcane swallow elemental for the simple fact that its stupidly broad! Arcane is so 'catch all' that almost every other power source could fit in there.
Personally I see Elemental with lots of transmutation power, not simply a bunch of damage types.
Well yeah, the reason why it's psionic is because it deals with the power you channel using your mind. A monk uses his mind to harness that psychic power to enhance his physical prowess. Then yeah there can be telekinetics who using their powers to manipulate stuff outside themselves. Creating psychic defenses and using their minds to dominate or damage opponents. That's the difference between psionic and Ki. Ki didn't have the versality to match the other class roles that psionic does. I mean hell you can have a psionic defender that's a mime. He creates psychic defenses and stuff to protect his friends. true, that's stretching it, but still more versatility.
You do bring up a good point about Elemental going beyond just fire, wind, ice, thunder, etc. But on that note, I was thinking today that you could really spin even the Wu Jen, which would be assumed to be an Elemental or Arcane power source, to Psionic. They could use their mental powers to harness and control the elements. I mean in 3.5 you got the psychic ability to blast fire and stuff, not a far stretch.
Which ninjas never had.
Yes, and Paladins never had the ability to heal people with their hands in real life.
I've never seen samurai as anything but highly focused soldiers.
Samurai were highly trained land-owning noblemen who ruthlessly exploited the serfs that dwelled on their land. So Warlord fits the concept the best out of anything I've seen in DnD.
I could almost see the argument for making the ESP powers (Clairvoyance, Pre/Post-Cog, etc.), at least the extended use ones, rituals instead of utilities. Almost.
Well you can have utilities dealing with those depending on the class, but have more extensive uses as rituals. Meaning like have a utility which allows you to use your inner eye to maybe glimpse the lowest Def of the monster. But a ritual could be used to plumb the depths of the monster finding out all it's weaknesses, attacks, and all that. You just have to look at it as levels of power. Utilities would be the lesser or more narrow use of the skill while rituals would be more broad and thorough in detail. I could see both.
Technically speaking, aren't monks already proficient with spiked gauntlets? Obviously, monks are proficient in unarmed, and according to AV, spiked gauntlets are of the unarmed weapon group...
Yep. Though it'd be nice to see more magical enhancements for them. Yeah I understand plenty of enhancements are for any weapon, but there's only ONE enhancement that's specifically for the spiked gauntlets. More would be nice in AV2
"Mr. Mime!"
Yes, and Paladins never had the ability to heal people with their hands in real life.
Nope, they didn't, but then again, no clergy did. But, always those considered closest to their deity, regardless of occupation, have been attributed with various miraculous capabilities from healing to prophecy to affliction and destruction. Ninjas are likewise credited with being able to walk through walls, disappear, and to be in many places at once. Both are already covered.
Samurai were highly trained land-owning noblemen who ruthlessly exploited the serfs that dwelled on their land. So Warlord fits the concept the best out of anything I've seen in DnD.
Warlords in D&D are not land-owning noblemen who exploit serfs. Samurai in D&D would likely not be that either. But, when removing those distinctions, I could see the samurai being warlords after all. Guess even I have a little 3.5 crap to purge from myself yet. Since in 3.5...they were basically paladins mechanically, except no lay on hands and no horse.
If a monk has a +1 fire enhancement on his fists and wants a +2 a DM can work it so as a reward a wizard will enchant them to become stronger.
And on that, those who say having to have a PC w/ Ritual Casting to get the enchant item ritual is too much of a pain to be able to enchant a monk's fists. Well I know with our group sometimes we can find NPCs who will do rituals for us. Ta da! You can have the monk find a wizard or someone, maybe a magic shop owner, and pay him the normal cost for the item and all to do the ritual.
Nope, they didn't, but then again, no clergy did. But, always those considered closest to their deity, regardless of occupation, have been attributed with various miraculous capabilities from healing to prophecy to affliction and destruction. Ninjas are likewise credited with being able to walk through walls, disappear, and to be in many places at once. Both are already covered.
Warlords in D&D are not land-owning noblemen who exploit serfs. Samurai in D&D would likely not be that either. But, when removing those distinctions, I could see the samurai being warlords after all. Guess even I have a little 3.5 crap to purge from myself yet. Since in 3.5...they were basically paladins mechanically, except no lay on hands and no horse.
Well, yeah, I meant the part about the serfs mostly to explain that they were trained in tactics and leading men into battle. 4's addition of a mainstream martial class that revolves around tactics and intelligence is one of the best idea's from the entire run yet.
Ninjas are likewise credited with being able to walk through walls, disappear, and to be in many places at once. Both are already covered.
I'm pretty sure there will be an official ninja rogue build, if not a complete class, nonetheless. They could also just use the concept to do a Shadow Striker.
Oh wow, now the Psychic Defender had better damn well be a Mime class. Best idea EVER.
"Mr. Mime!"
See, it stupidly makes sense. Me and a friend stumbled on the thought as a joke, an accident but then we got to thinking, and it could be plausable. You'd have a Mime who maybe the reason why the didn't talk while using their powers was because they used that focus to channel the energy they needed to say create a psychic wall, or mimick to dropping of a psychic boulder on an enemy. Could work, it really could! I think we should start a petition or something, get Wizard and D&D group to think about the Mime as a serious Psionic class option.
Well, yeah, I meant the part about the serfs mostly to explain that they were trained in tactics and leading men into battle. 4's addition of a mainstream martial class that revolves around tactics and intelligence is one of the best idea's from the entire run yet.
Fair enough.
See, it stupidly makes sense. Me and a friend stumbled on the thought as a joke, an accident but then we got to thinking, and it could be plausable. You'd have a Mime who maybe the reason why the didn't talk while using their powers was because they used that focus to channel the energy they needed to say create a psychic wall, or mimick to dropping of a psychic boulder on an enemy. Could work, it really could! I think we should start a petition or something, get Wizard and D&D group to think about the Mime as a serious Psionic class option.
I...I just...I just don't know how I feel about this. I mean...I can see the sense of it...but it just seems so...so...silly. This must be what going mad feels like.
Oh wow, now the Psychic Defender had better damn well be a Mime class. Best idea EVER.
"Mr. Mime!"
"Abrakadabra, I choose you!"
. . . They're going to kill us. You know that, right?;)
I might be the only one, but I really don't mind if there's a small to medium amount of overlap from one class to another.
I don't mind a small amount of overlap between classes. Honestly, I think often it will be unavoidable. But no more overlap than a little bit.
I think the issue here is that overlap between power sources is a bigger issue. Frankly, I think Arcane and Divine overlap too much as it is. An arcane striker and a divine striker and a martial striker are going to overlap a bit...they almost have to. But it shouldn't be much, and it should be their power source that provides the means to separate them...IMO. Power sources should be more unique.
I don't mind a small amount of overlap between classes. Honestly, I think often it will be unavoidable. But no more overlap than a little bit.
I think the issue here is that overlap between power sources is a bigger issue. Frankly, I think Arcane and Divine overlap too much as it is. An arcane striker and a divine striker and a martial striker are going to overlap a bit...they almost have to. But it shouldn't be much, and it should be their power source that provides the means to separate them...IMO. Power sources should be more unique.
And I figure Power Sources are going to overlap quite a bit; I expect them to.
Since they're really only fluff to help the player wrap their head around their character, I expect them to be more diverse in concept, less diverse in detail.
Monks harness the power of the mind. Psionics (which isn't just a D&D term) is about harnessing the power of the mind. Good match. Better then arcane, divine and primal. Could have gone for martial. But psi is closer. Applause for WotC.
By the way, I just got me the GURPS character builder. D&D is a fun combat system but the 'role playing' is lost somewhere between encounter and daily powers. I dunno. I might try to combine D&D combat and GURPS advantages/disadvantages/quirks somewhere along the line. Roleplaying is what you make of it anyways.
Cheerio,
AoD
Ki is an interesting idea, and it has been around for a while in terms of beliefs, but can you really base a whole power source on it? Explain to me exactly what a "Ki Leader" would be, then we'll talk.
Show me the martial controller first, then we'll talk.
I'd thought ki was going to a more metaphysical power source where psionics was going to be a more mental aptitude - somewhat like the difference between divine and arcane [edit: goofed] (sort of like a Ki paladin [defender] vs. psionic wizard [controller]).
I'm kind of sad to see Ki got dumped. Did WotC explain why the decision was made to not use Ki?
That's not what I said at all.
The idea of what Ki is - is ancient and directly applies to what a Ki class such as Samurai, Ninja, or Monk entails.
To suddenly decide, no its not Ki, its psionics, the force or any other name doesn't fit, and one has to justify how is it that psionics is the same thing as Ki, when its not.
I don't believe in Ki as an actual force or inner power, that manifests in magical events or occurences. However, most practicing martial artists are taught the ideas of Ki, which is part of the inner strength required to endure pain, or to perform explosive martial arts actions.
There are many people who believe in this concept.
The idea of Ki giving you any true "magic power" is a cartoon idea introduced by Manga/Anime in the last 20 years or so. That kind of power is as fake as D&D Psionics or Arcane systems.
GP
I don't understand why it matters what it's called. That seems to be your whole argument.
"OMG IT WAS CALLED KI FIRST AND NOW ITS CALLED PSIONICS!!!! WAHHH!"
I seriously don't get that. If WotC wants to call it psionics...then they'll call it psionics...they could call it Electromagnetism for all I care.
Actually...lets say they do that. Let's say they say monks suddenly manipulate electromagnetic fields inside and outside of their bodies to increase damage. Is there a problem with that? According to your logic, there is, as the term/concept of Ki came before electromagnetism.
Simply put - monk is no longer Ki, it is psionic. Why? Because WotC said so. They just changed the name.
I am seriously just baffled at how this is a big deal...
post-modernist
:S
Wicked City.
Show me the martial controller first, then we'll talk.
I'd thought ki was going to a more metaphysical power source where psionics was going to be a more mental aptitude - somewhat like the difference between divine and arcane [edit: goofed] (sort of like a Ki paladin [defender] vs. psionic wizard [controller]).
I'm kind of sad to see Ki got dumped. Did WotC explain why the decision was made to not use Ki?
They thought it would be implemented as a version of Psionics that only Asians could control. So . . . right, yeah, doesn't really make sense as an excuse, but there you go.
Wicked City.
I am seriously just baffled at how this is a big deal...
Its only a big deal, because I have written a year's worth setting and adventure arc intended for publication for D&D, but the developers changed their mind on what they originally planned on calling monk's power (see PH). I have created more than just fluff to assign any name to, I have created mechanics based Ki. Now I have to scrap tons of work, try to get this thing published, before WotC pulls another Whammy and say Ninjas are now called clowns or something.
For players of 4e, it's only fluff and means nothing much, for developers its a much bigger deal (time is money and this change is costing me money) - OK?
GP
Warlord definitely a culturally neutral class, but if anyone was to name one historic figure who could be a warlord, an Asian tribal chieftain who was born with the name Temujin and would be later known as Genghis Khan is probably the first name anyone would think of.
And when anyone takes a closer look at ancient Mongolian culture, you'll find that it's a highly shamanistic culture. And that clearly a lot of Mongolian inspired characters would be Primal (or Martial). But as anyone can see Primal can fit anywhere in the world, and not just be something that's Mongolian.
With this logic, it's extremely easy to see how the Monk fit into the Psionic power source without being the least bit "psychic".
I think folks are still getting hung up on the simplistic notion that "Psionic = psychic" -- IMHO, that's false. To me, Psionic is the "internal energy" power source, which is why Ki was so redundant along side of it; for the purposes of the "new" Psionic, powers can be described with "spirit", "mind", "soul", or "ki" interchangeably, because it all simply describes internal energy.
With this logic, it's extremely easy to see how the Monk fit into the Psionic power source without being the least bit "psychic".
Nah...I prefer psychic monks. Nice bit about the internal energy though...but I still plan on referring to it strictly as the mind.
Monk
Manifester/incarnate/soulblade type class
Empath leader
Psycher controller
Nah...I prefer psychic monks. Nice bit about the internal energy though...but I still plan on referring to it strictly as the mind.
The neat thing is that by explaining Psionic as "internal energy", you can say your Monks are psychic (or that they aren't) without having to change anything. Why? Because "internal energy" is just a broad descriptor into which ki and psychokinetics both fit.
I think folks are still getting hung up on the simplistic notion that "Psionic = psychic" -- IMHO, that's false. To me, Psionic is the "internal energy" power source, which is why Ki was so redundant along side of it; for the purposes of the "new" Psionic, powers can be described with "spirit", "mind", "soul", or "ki" interchangeably, because it all simply describes internal energy.
With this logic, it's extremely easy to see how the Monk fit into the Psionic power source without being the least bit "psychic".
If that is the case, then they should rename it to Spirit, Mind, or Soul because Psionic suggests a fairly limited scope of applications and themes that monks fall squarely out of.
If that is the case, then they should rename it to Spirit, Mind, or Soul because Psionic suggests a fairly limited scope of applications and themes that monks fall squarely out of.
That makes no sense, psionic is Spirit, Mind, and Soul wrapped up into one and you say that's limited in scope!
Technically speaking, aren't monks already proficient with spiked gauntlets? Obviously, monks are proficient in unarmed, and according to AV, spiked gauntlets are of the unarmed weapon group...
No, they are not proficient in the unarmed weapon group.
Weapon Proficiencies: Club, dagger, quarterstaff, shuriken, sling, spear
Under Unarmed Combatant, they are proficient int he use of the Monk unarmed Strike.
When you make an unarmed attack, you can use the monk unarmed
strike, which is a weapon in the unarmed weapon group.
So if you want them to use a spiked gauntlet, you have to blow a proficiency feat on it. And if what they say is true, putting in feats that allow you to boost damage and properties of you monk unarmed strike, then using a gauntlet would be sub-par anyway.
Not wrong and not solved if you can't use AV. Both of these solutions assume that you have Adventurer's Vault and that your DM allows it (one of my DMs doesnt). Running the "levels as treasure" solution also assumes your DM is nice enough to allow an alternate rule that changes how he runs his game.
You can't say that the problem doesn't exist when the solution requires use of a book that isn't in the PHB or DMG or the source where the monk is actually printed. I can't use the AV in some games i play in since the DM doesn't allow what he doesn't own, and the monk's unarmed enhancement will lag behind without houserules or higher level NPCs always available for rituals in those games. Its kinda lame unless they put some kind of fix in the PHB3.
Well, then you're screwed. Don't play a monk in those games. Solved.
That makes no sense, psionic is Spirit, Mind, and Soul wrapped up into one and you say that's limited in scope!
Psionic: adjective, pertaining to the telepathic or psychic.
The Monk is neither, therefore the definition needs to be expanded.
Sounds like you won't be using the monk anyway, since that DM doesn't own the book. So you're right, the problem isn't solved...because there isn't a problem. If he's letting you playtest the Monk...then he'll need to be more flexible. Aside from that...good luck. I can't help ya, I can't afford DDI.
A DM can own a copy of the appropriate Dragon mag without also owning a physical copy of a particular book. Owning one in no way necessitates ownership of the other.
The point is moot once the PHB3 comes out though, since any group out there could easily own both the PHB and the PHB3 without access to the AV or DDI. There should be no necessity to own an extra book so that the monk gets loot on par with everyone else. No one should have to access the AV for rules on how to give the monk enchantments above his level, like the rest of the party. All im saying is that they need to include the appropriate mechanism in the PHB3 when it comes out since it is missing from the playtest.
You're just whining for the sake of whining, aren't you?
Thanks for the display of maturity, buddy.
I've already explained (several times, I think) how your DM is perfectly free, within the rules of the DMG (no other sources needed), to hand out rewards in any way, shape or form he pleases. If a parcel calls for a magic item of Level+n, nothing says it has to be a "found" item, it can just as easily be an enchantment offered as a reward by the adventurers' employer. A DM who doesn't realize this is either a jerk or simply unintelligent. Either way, I wouldn't play with them.
What? An item of level+n is an item of level+n. If you are turning an item of level+n into a free-floating enchantment, that is a houserule that is outside of the RAW. Its not a big houserule or one that is difficult to conceive; I'm not arguing that at all. The DM can easily say "you find a magic wellspring that gives you an enchantment of your level +n" or something (that would be an easy solution that i would use), but that assumes that the DM is willing to come up with something creative that is outside of the actual rules as written. Regardless of how easy it is to patch, the default rules should be there without assuming the DM will make up a mechanic to make it balanced with what other people are getting.
You can't just assume that every DM is canny enough to come up with an appropriate solution, and more importantly, you can't assume that every DM is willing to go out of the RAW in order make special concessions that aren't explicit in the rules.
So if you want them to use a spiked gauntlet, you have to blow a proficiency feat on it. And if what they say is true, putting in feats that allow you to boost damage and properties of you monk unarmed strike, then using a gauntlet would be sub-par anyway.
Someone may want to do the Reckless/Bloodclaw stacking cheese by wearing bloodclaw spiked gauntlets and attack with a Reckless unarmed strike. Hell, im sure that would work even if you aren't proficient with the spiked gauntles.
Someone may want to do the Reckless/Bloodclaw stacking cheese by wearing bloodclaw spiked gauntlets and attack with a Reckless unarmed strike. Hell, im sure that would work even if you aren't proficient with the spiked gauntles.
Doubtful. If your hands are covered, their enchantments won't apply. It would be like hitting your enemy with your sword still sheathed. One or the other, not both. And its blanket enchantment for a single monk's unarmed attacks, I'm guessing...not "you get your fists enchanted, or your head, or your feet." You get enchanted, and so unarmed strikes...ONLY unarmed strikes apply the enchantment...the gauntlets don't count because they'd have their own enchantment, superceding yours, or superceded BY yours.
Doubtful. If your hands are covered, their enchantments won't apply. It would be like hitting your enemy with your sword still sheathed. One or the other, not both. And its blanket enchantment for a single monk's unarmed attacks, I'm guessing...not "you get your fists enchanted, or your head, or your feet." You get enchanted, and so unarmed strikes...ONLY unarmed strikes apply the enchantment...the gauntlets don't count because they'd have their own enchantment, superceding yours, or superceded BY yours.
Im not sure you realize how the stacking works in this specific case. The Bloodclaw power works on any melee attack and never specifies that you attack with the Bloodclaw weapon itself to gain the benefit. You activate the power of the Bloodclaw gauntlets, it applies to your next melee attack, then you melee attack with your unarmed strike. This is how people stack Reckless and Bloodclaw in the same attack.
Im not sure you realize how the stacking works in this specific case. The Bloodclaw power works on any melee attack and never specifies that you attack with the Bloodclaw weapon itself to gain the benefit. You activate the power of the Bloodclaw gauntlets, it applies to your next melee attack, then you melee attack with your unarmed strike. This is how people stack Reckless and Bloodclaw in the same attack.
Ah...I see. Well then that's not an inherent problem of the monk class, is it? It's a problem with Bloodclaw itself.
Ah...I see. Well then that's not an inherent problem of the monk class, is it? It's a problem with Bloodclaw itself.
It isn't an issue with the monk but it explains why a monk would want spiked gauntlets that do less damage than their default unarmed strike. They don't even need to take the proficiency to make it work.
I...I just...I just don't know how I feel about this. I mean...I can see the sense of it...but it just seems so...so...silly. This must be what going mad feels like.
Quite possibly, then again I'm nuts. I'm crafting a Jester class that's Arcane. Technically I started off making Arcane/Martial but then I just figured, screw it if some of his moves don't involve magic that doesn't matter and dual sourcing it opens up a can of worms I don't feel like dealing with. But the point is I'm making it as a legitimate to play class but it's meant to kinda be silly.
Like I gave it a utility where as a reaction to a creature moving in a burst radius you throw a banana peel causing the creature to slid a number of squares and fall prone.
Or a daily that involves putting an enchanted "kick me" sign on the back of an enemy that puts other enemy creatures that end or start their turn adjacent to the target under the compulsion to make a free melee basic attack against the target.
Crazy stuff like that, but still fun. When I get it finished I'll have to post it on the forums.
I think folks are still getting hung up on the simplistic notion that "Psionic = psychic" -- IMHO, that's false. To me, Psionic is the "internal energy" power source, which is why Ki was so redundant along side of it; for the purposes of the "new" Psionic, powers can be described with "spirit", "mind", "soul", or "ki" interchangeably, because it all simply describes internal energy.
With this logic, it's extremely easy to see how the Monk fit into the Psionic power source without being the least bit "psychic".
Very true, that's what I was thinking. Basically Psionic is using the mind to harness the body's untapped power. Kinda like taking Martial to the next step in a sense. Martial exudes physical prowess to do great feats, while Psionic is using the mind to tap the power of the mind/soul whatever to new heights of powers. Plus it can incorporate psychic type classes and be a lot more versatile to work with when it comes to adding on new stuff. Better than Ki could.
It isn't an issue with the monk but it explains why a monk would want spiked gauntlets that do less damage than their default unarmed strike. They don't even need to take the proficiency to make it work.
Ah...sounds like Bloodclaw needs to get nerfed.
Psionic: adjective, pertaining to the telepathic or psychic.
The Monk is neither, therefore the definition needs to be expanded.
Don't mean this in a mean way but, HA!
Psychic–adjective Also, psy⋅chi⋅cal. 1. of or pertaining to the human soul or mind; mental (opposed to physical ).
2. Psychology. pertaining to or noting mental phenomena.
3. outside of natural or scientific knowledge; spiritual.
4. of or pertaining to some apparently nonphysical force or agency: psychic research; psychic phenomena.
5. sensitive to influences or forces of a nonphysical or supernatural nature.
Okay, I'm laughing because to be honest I read your post and was like, whatever sure psionic is generally looked at as psychic and not really a monk thing but they're broadening it for a fantasy setting to incorporate using your mind to harness the power of one's soul or inner strength.
Then I got the bright idea to look up psychic on Dictionary.com and there ya go. Huh, wasn't not expecting that to actually bear fruit, surprise surprise! haha
Why couldn't the DM just give the monk enough Residuum to get a certain level of enchantment?
You can only cast a ritual to create an item up to your level, even with a scroll. The issue is that the treasure parcels routinely give out weapons that are higher than the party's level, leaving the DM to come up with a fix on his own in order to insure the monk gets those higher level enchantments too.
Well, after months of arguing about it, I finally have all the evidence I need. Dungeons and Dragons fourth edition is now World of Warcraft. Goodbye, DnD. I'm going to miss you.
Well I don't know what Monk Playtest you read, but I'm pretty the Monk is Psionic, not Psionoc. What is Psionoc anyway, I don't remember hearing anything about that being a possible power source. Can you tell me is it something to do with WoW which is why you somehow believe D&D has become WoW? Maybe that'd help others on this thread understand what the hell your talking about.
Well I don't know what Monk Playtest you read, but I'm pretty the Monk is Psionic, not Psionoc. What is Psionoc anyway, I don't remember hearing anything about that being a possible power source. Can you tell me is it something to do with WoW which is why you somehow believe D&D has become WoW? Maybe that'd help others on this thread understand what the hell your talking about.
Basing a complaint about a post around a typo is pretty stupid, even if the original post was trollish. Pick on something that microsoft spellcheck can't pick out or don't reply at all.
You can only cast a ritual to create an item up to your level, even with a scroll. The issue is that the treasure parcels routinely give out weapons that are higher than the party's level, leaving the DM to come up with a fix on his own in order to insure the monk gets those higher level enchantments too.
It's only a matter of weapon enchantments, for unarmed attacks to be exact, the DM can give the monk armor, an amulet, bracers, a higher level monk weapon such as a Spear or Dagger or anything else other than an unarmed attack.
No, a monk can not get a magic unarmed attack from a DM parcel that is higher than his level from non reward/payment treasure under the current rules as written If there are no party members or NPCs with the transfer enchantment ritual. But is that really a big deal?
Weapon Proficiencies: Club, dagger, quarterstaff, shuriken, sling, spear
Under Unarmed Combatant, they are proficient int he use of the Monk unarmed Strike.
Speaking of the monk's weapon proficiencies, I think their unarmed strike needs to be scaled back a bit. It's as damaging as a quarterstaff and as accurate as a dagger, while the club is just plain inferior. True a quarterstaff is a 2-handed weapon, the dagger is a light-blade, the club is a mace; all of which provide each with a few unique options, but I'm just not sure there's enough motivation to use those weapons over unarmed combat.
As of now there are enough feats and enchantments unique to those kind of weapons to make them at least semi-viable choices, but will they still be as respectable after PHB3 expands the number of unarmed feats and enchantments?
Basing a complaint about a post around a typo is pretty stupid, even if the original post was trollish. Pick on something that microsoft spellcheck can't pick out or don't reply at all.
I was being sarcastic, geez the whole thing is a joke since the guy hasn't even stepped back up to the forum plate. I wasn't basing an actual complaint on his typo
No, a monk can not get a magic unarmed attack from a DM parcel that is higher than his level from non reward/payment treasure under the current rules as written If there are no party members or NPCs with the transfer enchantment ritual. But is that really a big deal?
Its a big deal if unarmed strikes are your main weapons. Its also been argued by someone in this thread that, by RAW, even the transfer ritual doesn't apparently work on an unarmed strike (i haven't looked it up myself).
Its not a huge fix to make in most home-games, but it is still something that should be addressed explicitly in the PHB3.
Speaking of the monk's weapon proficiencies, I think their unarmed strike needs to be scaled back a bit. It's as damaging as a quarterstaff and as accurate as a dagger, while the club is just plain inferior. True a quarterstaff is a 2-handed weapon, the dagger is a light-blade, the club is a mace; all of which provide each with a few unique options, but I'm just not sure there's enough motivation to use those weapons over unarmed combat.
As of now there are enough feats and enchantments unique to those kind of weapons to make them at least semi-viable choices, but will they still be as respectable after PHB3 expands the number of unarmed feats and enchantments?
They mentioned this in the devlopment article. We haven't seen much of the weapon side of the Monk, which will offer lots of options to make melee weapons more attractive, by giving them additional benefits. Scimitar wielding Monks that could bestow upon certain weapons the Brutal property were given as an examples.
Its a big deal if unarmed strikes are your main weapons. Its also been argued by someone in this thread that, by RAW, even the transfer ritual doesn't apparently work on an unarmed strike (i haven't looked it up myself).
Its not a huge fix to make in most home-games, but it is still something that should be addressed explicitly in the PHB3.
True, the Transfer Ritual can't be unused on unarmed attacks. The transfer has to be between same type items. Wand-Wand, sword-sword, etc. But that doesn't chance that you can still enchant your fists(or whatever, i still like the image of a monk's fists suddenly bursting into flame at the start of battle)
Don't mean this in a mean way but, HA!
Psychic–adjective Also, psy⋅chi⋅cal. 1. of or pertaining to the human soul or mind; mental (opposed to physical ).
2. Psychology. pertaining to or noting mental phenomena.
3. outside of natural or scientific knowledge; spiritual.
4. of or pertaining to some apparently nonphysical force or agency: psychic research; psychic phenomena.
5. sensitive to influences or forces of a nonphysical or supernatural nature.
Okay, I'm laughing because to be honest I read your post and was like, whatever sure psionic is generally looked at as psychic and not really a monk thing but they're broadening it for a fantasy setting to incorporate using your mind to harness the power of one's soul or inner strength.
Then I got the bright idea to look up psychic on Dictionary.com and there ya go. Huh, wasn't not expecting that to actually bear fruit, surprise surprise! haha
You'd be hard pressed to find honest believers of psi phenomon that don't attribute it to the soul or spirituality in some way. Afterall, speaking to ghosts and the spirits of the dead is one of the oldest psychic tricks in the book. Belief that one can maintain consciousness even after death and the loss of their physical body, whether they join some kind of communal consciousness or are reincarnated (hence past lives) are also common beliefs.
You'd be hard pressed to find honest believers of psi phenomon that don't attribute it to the soul or spirituality in some way. Afterall, speaking to ghosts and the spirits of the dead is one of the oldest Psychic tricks in the book.
Well of course, just made me laugh that it was defined as such to counter what the other guy said. It was funny.
Psionic: adjective, pertaining to the telepathic or psychic.
The Monk is neither, therefore the definition needs to be expanded.
The definition is expanded. It's your definition that need to grow.
Most of us already understand that "psionic" doesn't have to mean clairvoyance and psychokinesis. In fact, the Greek root "psyche" means "spirit or breath", which is surprisingly similar to the Chinese definition of the word that we call "chi" or "ki".
Its a big deal if unarmed strikes are your main weapons. Its also been argued by someone in this thread that, by RAW, even the transfer ritual doesn't apparently work on an unarmed strike (i haven't looked it up myself).
Its not a huge fix to make in most home-games, but it is still something that should be addressed explicitly in the PHB3.
Well first off anyone allowing the monk is houseruling to some extent anyway as its not official I don't see an issue ever coming up in reality. Sounds like you're just complaining because you see what would outside of theory be non-existant. Given that the PH3 is something in the area of a full year or more off I don't think you'll see any real problems once used in practice any time soon. And another thing to suggest you're just complaining your first remark was that your DM wouldn't allow the AV then you said they didn't have it. If they are allowing playtest info from dragon and not allowing the AV you have more problems than not getting the best weapons from parcels, and if you're changing your arguement just to keep arguing I've nothing further to say to you
Wikipedia begs to disagree with you
I hate to break it to you buddy but a lot of Wikipedia is wrong. Colleges do not allow you to use anything from Wikipedia because a lot of it is not accurate. Using Wikipedia in an argument doesn't hold any water. WoTc screwed up when they dropped Ki. Of course most of you 4th edition Avengers are going to come storming in to it's rescue, but it doesn't change the fact that they screwed up. Tell you what most of you need to do. Go and find you some accurate information on the ancient ways of martial arts and the uses and beliefs of Chi. I honestly believe that if WoTc told some of you the earth was flat you would believe it.
I hate to break it to you buddy but a lot of Wikipedia is wrong. Colleges do not allow you to use anything from Wikipedia because a lot of it is not accurate. Using Wikipedia in an argument doesn't hold any water. WoTc screwed up when they dropped Ki. Of course most of you 4th edition Avengers are going to come storming in to it's rescue, but it doesn't change the fact that they screwed up. Tell you what most of you need to do. Go and find you some accurate information on the ancient ways of martial arts and the uses and beliefs of Chi. I honestly believe that if WoTc told some of you the earth was flat you would believe it.
I think you missed the point of his post. Someone claimed that the word Psionics was a term invented by Dungeons and Dragons so they could define it as anything, and the Wikipedia article and the resources linked inside of it show that Dungeons and Dragons did not invent the term Psionic.
Using Wikipedia in an argument doesn't hold any water.
http://www.davidszondy.com/future/man/psionics.htm
http://www.parapsych.org/glossary_l_r.html
Wikipedia's inaccuracy is greatly exaggerated. Especially now that most articles link to a source. Just because its on Wikipedia doesn't mean that the info is invalid, sorry.
Its only a big deal, because I have written a year's worth setting and adventure arc intended for publication for D&D, but the developers changed their mind on what they originally planned on calling monk's power (see PH). I have created more than just fluff to assign any name to, I have created mechanics based Ki. Now I have to scrap tons of work, try to get this thing published, before WotC pulls another Whammy and say Ninjas are now called clowns or something.
For players of 4e, it's only fluff and means nothing much, for developers its a much bigger deal (time is money and this change is costing me money) - OK?
GP
Sorry for your luck. You gambled and lost! Get back to work.
Well first off anyone allowing the monk is houseruling to some extent anyway as its not official I don't see an issue ever coming up in reality. Sounds like you're just complaining because you see what would outside of theory be non-existant. Given that the PH3 is something in the area of a full year or more off I don't think you'll see any real problems once used in practice any time soon. And another thing to suggest you're just complaining your first remark was that your DM wouldn't allow the AV then you said they didn't have it. If they are allowing playtest info from dragon and not allowing the AV you have more problems than not getting the best weapons from parcels, and if you're changing your arguement just to keep arguing I've nothing further to say to you
Playtest is legitimate material. That's the point of them putting it out is for it to be used and get opinions. Just like any Dragon or Dungeon article, it's all official material so no it's not houseruling to use it. And from what it sounds like, his DM doesn't allow material he doesn't have. So if they have the playtest, that's cool. But if they don't have the AV, then it makes sense the DM doesn't allow it. Sucks, but it makes sense.
I hate to break it to you buddy but a lot of Wikipedia is wrong. Colleges do not allow you to use anything from Wikipedia because a lot of it is not accurate. Using Wikipedia in an argument doesn't hold any water. WoTc screwed up when they dropped Ki. Of course most of you 4th edition Avengers are going to come storming in to it's rescue, but it doesn't change the fact that they screwed up. Tell you what most of you need to do. Go and find you some accurate information on the ancient ways of martial arts and the uses and beliefs of Chi. I honestly believe that if WoTc told some of you the earth was flat you would believe it.
Yes, but in this case it isn't wrong. The word psionics does date back to before D&D and belief in mental powers dates back to even further back. And please, by all means, show me where I said that belief in chi isn't really old. For all the relevance that has.
P.S. I find it hilarious that you would tell people to find "accurate" information about chi and then make a comment about people who believe the earth is flat.
P.P.S. and even if you were only talking about what people beleive chi to do, we would no more be looking at a realistic model of chi than we would be looking for arcane magic to mirror hermetic beliefs or primal magic to model paganism. The goal is to make entertaining abilities for a game, not to model real world beleif systems. D&D never has and hopefully never will.
P.P.P.S. Given your comments in another thread, do you think I should be looking for my 'accurate info' on ki powers by watching Dragonball Z? Just asking
I think you missed the point of his post. Someone claimed that the word Psionics was a term invented by Dungeons and Dragons so they could define it as anything, and the Wikipedia article and the resources linked inside of it show that Dungeons and Dragons did not invent the term Psionic.
http://www.davidszondy.com/future/man/psionics.htm
http://www.parapsych.org/glossary_l_r.html
Wikipedia's inaccuracy is greatly exaggerated. Especially now that most articles link to a source. Just because its on Wikipedia doesn't mean that the info is invalid, sorry.
Bingo. Give the man a cigar.
Well first off anyone allowing the monk is houseruling to some extent anyway as its not official I don't see an issue ever coming up in reality. Sounds like you're just complaining because you see what would outside of theory be non-existant. Given that the PH3 is something in the area of a full year or more off I don't think you'll see any real problems once used in practice any time soon.
This is a playtest. They need to know when something need patched, even if it is a small patch. My "complaining" is part of pointing out a possible oversight that needs to be patched. I've sent my piece with a feedback email. if you don't want anyone to point out that the text may not be perfect as is, then i don't think you grasp the idea of a playtest.
And another thing to suggest you're just complaining your first remark was that your DM wouldn't allow the AV then you said they didn't have it. If they are allowing playtest info from dragon and not allowing the AV you have more problems than not getting the best weapons from parcels, and if you're changing your arguement just to keep arguing I've nothing further to say to you
I've already addressed this particular point. Please read the thread. If you are going to rehash things then i've nothing further to say to you either since you aren't adding anything to the discussion.
It doesn't matter if its in Dragon right now or not, you shouldn't need one book to patch a feature of something in another book when neither of them is in the core 3. At some point people will be playing with the PHB3 version, and at that point there should be a clear and obvious way, by RAW, for monks to get higher level enhancements like the rest of the party without anyone having to buy a whole other book or having the DM make something up.
about the psionic monk here, if you consider the psionic potential of the BODY as well as the MIND, then the monk makes a lot more sense. Psionis doesn't have to be purely mental, as 3.0 psions worked with different disciplines, and the 3.5 Wilder, who worked a great deal on raw emotion.So, the 4e monks use their own training and discipline to unlock power hidden within themselves. Which, while something that sounds like what we would also expect from ki, is also a fitting description for how psionics work as well.
Sidenote: 12 pages of thread this fast!
No AURA SPHERE at will though so far no? Still might get an Aura Storm later on hehe. Lucario is pretty sweet and versatile, able to be either a Physical Sweeper OR a Special Sweeper. Aura Sphere, Dark Pulse, Dragon Pulse and Psychic for mine :D
Sorcerer|Monk hybrid, I'd say, unless Psionics has a better Special Sweeper class. Acid Orb can be reflavored, I think.
If WOTC is doing Dark Sun next year, then they will need to have at least 4 Psionic classes, I would guess the other classes to fill out PH3 will be a combination of Elemental and Shadow.
Isn't The Force actually an OUTSIDE source of energy? A source of web of bioenergy found throughout the cosmos or something?
The Force is a universal energy produced by living beings that has to be tapped into by training and being born with the potential for the talent. The clairvoyance, telepathy, and precognition abilities seem to originate from the universal Force, but the physical enhancement and psionic powers powers tend to be shown to originate from the Jedi itself.
So seeing/perception taps into the force web of all living things, doing taps into the Force within oneself.
So where do Midiclorians fit in all this? :p
Warped Far Realm hive entities you can make pacts with for power.
Warped Far Realm hive entities you can make pacts with for power.
Eeeew...gibbering cooties!
You can't just assume that every DM is canny enough to come up with an appropriate solution, and more importantly, you can't assume that every DM is willing to go out of the RAW in order make special concessions that aren't explicit in the rules.
See, here's where we differ. If I wanted a DM that was just a narrow-minded RAW literalist, I'd play a computer game. I do assume that every DM who is a living person sitting at the table with me is canny enough to come up with a sensible solution to problems that arise during play. That's what being a DM is all about, in my view.
It's clear we're not going to get anywhere arguing about what is or is not allowed/explicit/implicit in the rules.
I would, however, like to state how sorry I am for you that your DM is a twit, and suggest you find other people to game with.
P.S.: I totally agree with you that a lot of things in the playtest article need to be clarified, and it's really good that you've sent in feedback about it. But I have to say that's not how you entered the discussion on these boards. You came across as Complainer McKilljoy, trying to dampen everyone else's spirits. Try to think some happy thoughts, mmmkay? ;)
Seriously, it's just fluff, get the F*** over it. Ki never fit in the D&D system anyway.
Also, Wikipedia isn't inaccurate. It's actually better than most textbooks because you have instant access to their references. My lecturers are all fine with us using Wiki extracts as long as we cite it properly and verify the source.
See, here's where we differ. If I wanted a DM that was just a narrow-minded RAW literalist, I'd play a computer game. I do assume that every DM who is a living person sitting at the table with me is canny enough to come up with a sensible solution to problems that arise during play. That's what being a DM is all about, in my view.
It's clear we're not going to get anywhere arguing about what is or is not allowed/explicit/implicit in the rules.
I would, however, like to state how sorry I am for you that your DM is a twit, and suggest you find other people to game with.
P.S.: I totally agree with you that a lot of things in the playtest article need to be clarified, and it's really good that you've sent in feedback about it. But I have to say that's not how you entered the discussion on these boards. You came across as Complainer McKilljoy, trying to dampen everyone else's spirits. Try to think some happy thoughts, mmmkay? ;)
I pretty much agree...except that in my view, the majority of DMs (those few I've played with, and those who post on these boards claiming to be DMs) are in fact, the complete twits that you mentioned.
DMing is like any other position of power. Those who are suited to it are rare...and those who'd be best at it, regardless of how common they might be, never want the job. A better example would be, the best PotUS we could ever hope to have, would be a person who'd do almost anything to NOT be the PotUS.
Speaking of the monk's weapon proficiencies, I think their unarmed strike needs to be scaled back a bit. It's as damaging as a quarterstaff and as accurate as a dagger, while the club is just plain inferior. True a quarterstaff is a 2-handed weapon, the dagger is a light-blade, the club is a mace; all of which provide each with a few unique options, but I'm just not sure there's enough motivation to use those weapons over unarmed combat.
Well, that's because the playtest build is specifically supposed to show off the unarmed monk. They do state that options for the armed monk will appear later.
True, the Transfer Ritual can't be unused on unarmed attacks. The transfer has to be between same type items. Wand-Wand, sword-sword, etc. But that doesn't chance that you can still enchant your fists(or whatever, i still like the image of a monk's fists suddenly bursting into flame at the start of battle)
No, according to AV, "weapon" is a type of item (not "sword" etc.), and according to the playtest, the unarmed strike is a "weapon".
So transferring an enchant from your unarmed strike to a dagger (or vice versa) is perfectly legit.
"Do you believe that my being stronger or faster has anything to do with my muscles in this place?"
This, imo, is the key to how psionics works. They see the truth that reality is a delicate balance between divine and elemental energy, both of which respond readily to the will of the observer. You just need to twist your thoughts right.
I also think that the mind and the soul are the same thing. This is why ghosts get thought manipulation and telekenesis.
All I can say is I hope Psionics works this time. Since it NEVER worked in D&D before. If as you say, its just a power source and my tainted view on what psionics really is this time, has changed and won't break the game, as it always has done in the past, then my point of view is completely wrong.
Then going from that premise, yes, your point of view is completely wrong. :P
Have you checked over the playtest article itself? That should give a good sense of what to expect. There is no new system - their powers work largely the same as all other classes, just with their own unique flavor. In this case, that flavor is focused on enhancing their own abilities through mental focus, incredible feats of mobility, and powerful strikes that knock down foes around them or send them flying.
From what I've seen, it would be a trivial task to reflavor all of this as 'classic ki' - instead of a shockwave being a psionic wave of force, it is simply a thunderwave from the force of their blow, certainly a classic trope of the monk. And the powers along those lines are the only ones even in need of any real change to the context - powers built around mental discipline or incredible agility are already exactly what the monk is about.
I can sympathize with your frustrations at having already written up a product based on expectation that have been undercut by WotC. But while a shame, this isn't them in some way betraying a promise - they changed their minds about something that was (briefly) mentioned in earlier works, in order to create what they viewed as a better final product. Which I applaud them doing.
And honestly, this is the gamble of doing game design without the final product available to work from. There are countless other ways they could have changed the monk that would have meant needing to revise your product. None of them, however - including this one - are insurmountable. I am confident you can rewrite any fluff you have - without much difficulty - to match the idea of the psionic Monk. I am equally confident you could not bother doing so, and instead include a brief section on how to treat the Monk as a 'ki based character', and it would work equally well, and have plenty interested in the final product.
Neither of these is an unreasonable amount of work for a game designer, and neither of them is an indication the psionic rules themselves are in any way inappropriate or broken.
Perhaps WotC got smart and fixed it altogether (though I'm not optimistic) Psionicists are "coming soon", they are not here yet, and I can only base my understand on 30 years of D&D, its hard to see it differently.
4E has completely tossed out the previous idea of earlier editions that every type of power needs its own unique subsystem. Both because that added needless complexity to the game... and because most of those subsystems (such as the many, many attempts at psionics) were often broken.
Thus, it won't be a new system. And you can't say it is "not here yet" - it is! The playtest article itself shows exactly what to expect - a character that uses the same general mechanics as other classes, with a few areas of unique flavor and a few unique elements to make it stand out.
The final product, admittedly, may change - but they aren't going to scrap the class and suddenly pull an old-school psionic system out of nowhere.
Using my "perceived" (perhaps wrongly) idea of psionics, replacing my understanding of Ki, which I still think is spiritual energy, not divine and not brain power - especially as I'm developing a distinctly Japanese setting for pubication, burns my months of effort involving Ki as a mechanic in my game.
One: The idea of attaining enlightenment through mental focus and clarity of mind has existed for a long, long time. It blends the line between 'mental power' and 'spiritual power' - mental discipline itself leads to spiritual awareness. The flavor really is appropriate in this context.
Two: If you are developing a distinctly Japanese setting for publication, as I mentioned earlier, nothing is stopping you from reflavoring the 'psionic' abilities as 'ki' abilities. It is the work of a moment to state that these characters have access to their powers through attunement with their inner being and the world around them (especially given how close that already is to the concept of psionics.)
Yes, it will require some effort on your part to place the monk in the context of your setting with this change in its background. No, that amount of work does not render useless the months of effort you've already put into the work. You can either adapt your work to reflect the similarities between ki and psionics, or adapt the monk to reflect a ki power source within your setting. Both should be reasonable tasks if you are serious about game design. Neither should remotely take as much work as you have claimed you have already put in it, nor should either require tossing out the majority of your content, as you seem to feel is currently the case.
Psionics in 3.5 was probably more balanced than either arcane or divine magic, and if something that has been a part of D&D since 1e & the mid-late 70s doesn't belong in D&D, then what does?
Was, no probably about it.
GP
For players of 4e, it's only fluff and means nothing much, for developers its a much bigger deal (time is money and this change is costing me money) - OK?
No, not OK. because if you had any work ethic, you'd be WORKING, not whining on the forums.
Either "fix" what you already have, which shouldn't be overly difficult, or scrap it and start over.
... huh?
Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann
Well, after months of arguing about it, I finally have all the evidence I need. Dungeons and Dragons fourth edition is now World of Warcraft. Goodbye, DnD. I'm going to miss you.
Yeah. Becouse World Of Warcraft has Psionic Monks. No wait... it doesnt...
GIGA... MIND... CRUSHER!
I find it difficult to treat such masculinity with the respect it deserves when you have Bridget as an avatar.
---
Anyway, on topic...
Glad to see psionics is confirmed for the PHB3, since it gives me options for kalashtar, Inspired etc. sooner. I'm also looking forward to a conversion of Dark Sun, so I guess it couldn't be better news.
If the psychic warrior returns as a defender, I'll be even happier. I think it's a fairly safe bet, too, though I think the name will change.
Actually, this is pretty much a non-problem, just have your DM read the Adventurer's Vault section on awarding item levels as treasure.
Thanks to you (and others) for pointing me to this. I'll admit I missed that in the Adventurer's Vault and so I was concerned about the ability to give monks magical "weapons" while keeping the game balanced.
Not only is the AV's suggestion easier then I thought it would be, but it also solves the problem of handling Family Heirlooms.
not solved if you can't use AV. Both of these solutions assume that you have Adventurer's Vault and that your DM allows it (one of my DMs doesnt).
One of the ideas only assumes that the DM has managed to read 2 pages from the AV at some point or spoken with someone who has read the AV.
Running the "levels as treasure" solution also assumes your DM is nice enough to allow an alternate rule that changes how he runs his game.
If the DM is willing to let people play unarmed monks and then not allow unarmed monks to gain "magical effects" then the DM is a douche.
The role of the DM is to ensure everyone has fun. Banning a classes build from having magical items doesn't equate to fun (unless it does for a very specific player. In which case its not an issue).
Its kinda lame unless they put some kind of fix in the PHB3.
Not really. WotC has provided a solution to the problem. Its a DM issue if he DM allows unarmed monks and then makes sure the unarmed monk can't get magical effects.
Just as its not WotC's fault if a DM allows Rangers of the archer build and then refuse to hand out any magical ranged weapons.
No one should have to access the AV for rules on how to give the monk enchantments above his level, like the rest of the party.
And no-one has to. Even if the DM doesn't know ANYONE who has the AV or has read the AV, its possible to incorporate giving boosts to monks using the DMG's parcel system. It requires more thinking, on the DM, but that's what happens. The less books you buy, the more effort you have to put into running the game.
You can only cast a ritual to create an item up to your level, even with a scroll. The issue is that the treasure parcels routinely give out weapons that are higher than the party's level, leaving the DM to come up with a fix on his own in order to insure the monk gets those higher level enchantments too.
A solution made up in a whole 2 minutes:
1) Use up a magic item slot from the parcel system to change the monks currently enhanced fists to a new enhancement of an appropriate level.
2) Calculate what 20% of the price for the original enhancement is.
3) Give the players an amount of gold pieces equal to the number generated in option 2.
Tada.
It isn't the solution mentioned in the AV and it also isn't as nice as the AV solution. But it works, keeps the game balanced, and took a whole 2 minutes to think of it.
If a DM isn't willing to put 2 minutes worth of effort into the game. The players have a much bigger problem then the monk falling behind in the damage it can produce.
No, not OK. because if you had any work ethic, you'd be WORKING, not whining on the forums.
Either "fix" what you already have, which shouldn't be overly difficult, or scrap it and start over.
You're late, its already fixed now - that was yesterday, when I had the complaint. Today is a whole new day. And I've got no issues about it anymore. You should have told me this yesterday when it mattered.
EDIT: just added to the author's note, all references to Ki powers in this publication refers to the Psionic mechanic in PH3, however in Kaidan it is still called Ki.
There that fixed the whole issue, and completely unaffects my work ethic. I've got all the time in the world to whine now!
Now I just have to finish the maps and wait for the illustrations and cover art - the written portion was done a while back, and past editing (until yesterday's required changes.) So close to being available.
GP
The role of the DM is to ensure everyone has fun.
Tz tz tz, what are you thinking?
;)
If a DM isn't willing to put 2 minutes worth of effort into the game. The players have a much bigger problem then the monk falling behind in the damage it can produce.
You are missing the point though. The developers shouldn't assume that every DM is going to have make something up to even things out or buy an extra book to patch an issue. The fact that it takes "2 minutes worth of effort" is entirely immaterial since not every DM going to be willing or able to go outside the RAW for special cases.
This is a playtest. People have to work around this issue right now but it doesn't have to be that way in the future. They just need to put a clear way to get monk higher level enhancements in the PHB3 without the player needing to convince the DM to buy another book or make a houserule. It doesn't take a huge effort to fix for most groups right now, but that isnt the point. The point is that its something that needs addressed explicitly when the final version comes out.
Sadly, the problem isn't elemental (a coherent thematic concept) but arcane - which bleeds all over everything. Elemental damage? Necrotic camage? Radiant damage? Power drawn from beings of the astral plane? Illusions? Teleportation? Shadows? Necromancy? Is there any power source that isn't coopted by the arcane?
It an issue with all the "magic" sources, really. The Invoker and Wizard have a ton of overlap and lots of the Druid powers would look at home in either of the previous classes. For the most part the sources seem highly arbitrary.
*Manly Tears*
My thoughts on the Psionic Monk can be summed up in one quote:-
"Do you believe that my being stronger or faster has anything to do with my muscles in this place?"
Best way to describe it EVER! Not only do I likes it, I loves it.
Also, I wanted to mention that the Monk being Psionic really fits into Eberron, so that makes me happy. I was always slightly confused by the Kalashtar wanting to be "Monks 'n Psions," but now it makes sense. It ESPECIALLY makes sense for the Kalashtar when you think of it in a Matrix sense.
Seriously, I want some Kalashtar vs. Inspired fights HEAVILY influenced by Neo vs. Agent fights! Awesome!
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
The Force is a universal energy produced by living beings that has to be tapped into by training and being born with the potential for the talent. The clairvoyance, telepathy, and precognition abilities seem to originate from the universal Force, but the physical enhancement and psionic powers powers tend to be shown to originate from the Jedi itself.
So seeing/perception taps into the force web of all living things, doing taps into the Force within oneself.
Actually this was covered pretty well by pretty much every SWRPG I ever played, using 3 different force skills. Control dealt with tapping the Force within oneself, Sense was used for perceiving the Living Force around you, and Alter was used for making changes in the Force in your environment. Some powers like Concentration (Luke blowing up the first Death Star without the use of a targeting computer) used just Control, while Affect Mind used all 3.
Your right, because "Psy powers" was thought up in 1942. "Psionics" was not used until the early 1970s, which correct me if I'm wrong is about the same time D&D came into existence...hmmm.
GP
John W Campbell (the guy who coined the term "psionics") died in 1971, the original Basic boxed set wasn't released until 1974, 3 years later. Funny, that.
You're late, its already fixed now - that was yesterday, when I had the complaint. Today is a whole new day. And I've got no issues about it anymore. You should have told me this yesterday when it mattered.
Oh, I replied late? I'm sorry. I was working when you posted that.
You're late, its already fixed now - that was yesterday, when I had the complaint. Today is a whole new day. And I've got no issues about it anymore. You should have told me this yesterday when it mattered.
Welcome to t3h interwebz, where arguments are forever and no one takes "Okay I was wrong" or even "Meh, Let's just agree to disagree" for an answer.;)
That being said, as someone who homebrewed his own Japan Inspired OA setting in 3.5 and was considering rebuilding it for 4e but doesn't really have the time, I look forward to seeing your work.
Psionics as I am speaking of the term is the system started by G.Gygax in 1e Players Handbook, that became thoroughly bastardized to be a different kind of magic used poorly throughout D&D's history.
If we were only discussing the idea of mental powers, well that's old as hell. But the Tower of Iron Will, Pychic manipulation, et al, this discusses D&D psionics, which is the system that I have an issue with.
1) Not everyone would agree that "psionics = bad" throughout D&D history.
2) 4E psionics =/= previous psionics. There is very little, if anything, in the monk preview that screams pseudo-science. The class has no sci-fi feel to it at all. If it does have a feel linked to a more modern fantasy genre, that would be wuxia.
3) Even if one accepts your "Psionics was born with D&D" viewpoint, why would a nearly 40-year-old fantasy trope be a bad thing for a modern game? You sound like the 4E bashers that refuse to weigh the game on its own merits because it is too far removed from their Tolkeinesque view of what D&D "should be."
As a game designer you should be more open minded. Stale products built on only what things were won't sell to the expanding audience.
As a final aside: The Psionic Monk is by no means a new concept. 1E D&D had the Psionic Monk write-up in Dragon Magazine. A friend played one in my campaigns to great enjoyment. The combination of the monk and psionics went well in hand with each other back then. Shadowrun had Physical Adepts, characters that used magic to enhance their melee abilities. 2E/3E had psychic warriors which were similar in concept.
Warped Far Realm hive entities you can make pacts with for power.
Better than Lucas's explanation!
Ki powers have nothing to do with astral projection, psychic mediums, or psychic powers,
Neither does the 4E Monk. Have you even read the playtest article?
rather to do with the mind and body powers
Psionics has always included mind and body powers. The monk focuses on those aspects of psionics.
to enable Ki classes (samurai, ninja, monk).
In the history of D&D what do the samurai, ninja, monk have in common that would constitute a whole new power source in 4E?
Psionics is so completely different and broken, that it doesn't belong in core D&D and shouldn't replace core Ki.
Ki was never core. And Psionics being "Core" really depends on your defintion of Core. PHB3 is starting to move far away from the core of PHB1. You don't need the classes their to have a functioning game.
You seem to have alot of mental baggage with psionics. Just because you believe earlier versions were "broken" why would that result in your current rants of "OMG! PSI IS SO BORKED, DONT LET IT IN 4E!!!!1!!!!11one!"
In the history of D&D what do the samurai, ninja, monk have in common that would constitute a whole new power source in 4E?
It is a five letter word that starts with a J, and ends with a pan. Try to solve it, kids at home!
Wikipedia's inaccuracy is greatly exaggerated. Especially now that most articles link to a source. Just because its on Wikipedia doesn't mean that the info is invalid, sorry.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30699302/
This guy tricked the media using wikipedia. If he wanted to, he could have used the same news articles he tricked into using his fake quote as sources to get his fake quote enshrined in wikipedia as sourced information.
The school my cousins attend banned wikipedia after someone edited the article on the school to say that all the retarded kids were kept chained up in the basement. A professor at my brother's college edited it to read that little green men lived inside potatoes. Granted, that type of information usually gets removed, but if you happen to stumble upon it in the meantime (and its not as glaringly obvious as those examples), then you could easily get some bad info from it. Also, the article above shows how easy it would be to get a source for bad info.
As for the topic on hand, it really doesn't matter to me. I've actually had psionic monks in my campaign in the past because I didn't see much distinction between psionics and ki anyway. If the name sounds too sci-fi, change it (psis in my campaign are mentalists or enchanters). The fact is, ki and psionics are both about using the power of the mind. The great thing about power sources is that you can change the name to whatever you want, and it changes nothing.
It is a five letter word that starts with a J, and ends with a pan. Try to solve it, kids at home!
So you want to create a power source based off of a single country?
*Cue polka music*
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHA
TRALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA
TRALALALALALALALALALALALALA
TRALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA
TRALALALALALALALALALALA
*Polka dance*
Condolences to those who liked the concept of a Ki power source. May all your psionic characters be Asian and all your combats be wuxia-esque.
D&D psionics is my issue, not spiritualism, mental powers or any of that.
Ki powers have nothing to do with astral projection, psychic mediums, or psychic powers, rather to do with the mind and body powers to enable Ki classes (samurai, ninja, monk).
The designers have specified they do not want to dump all the asian-esque classes into a single power source. To do so would lead to setting a precedence that any time WotC wanted to create a new class based on a non-western concept, it would force WotC to create 4 classes and a new power source for it.
That isn't right, nor is it fair.
It isn't right for the classes since not even the 4 Asian classes that appeared in 3.5 (Samurai, Ninja, Shugenja, Wu Jen) can really claim to be completely Ki. Depending on the flavor Ninjas could be Ki but could just as easily be arcane (naruto style magical ninjas), martial (akin to the rogue) or shadow (a dark shadowy assassin). It all depends on the basic flavor the class.
The Samurai is likewise difficult to peg down because everyone and their monkey's uncle has a vision of what a samurai is. Some believe it is a Rouroni Kenshin style unarmored single katana wielding bad ass. While others see the Samurai from an earlier day where they were masters of the blade, bow and horse. Still others say the Samurai is the 2 sword style master exemplified by the Complete Warrior's Samurai. Not only this but many would say the Samurai is a purely martial class, akin to the Fighter, while others claim a samurai s a multi-classed Fighter/Ranger, while still others claim the Samurai is like the Paladin except instead of worshiping a Deity, he holds bushido in such high regard it becomes his de facto religion.
And all this bickering says nothing for the fact that Shugenja and Wu Jen have little, if anything, to do with Ki.
Psionics is so completely different and broken, that it doesn't belong in core D&D and shouldn't replace core Ki.
Slow down there. In past editions Psionics may have been broken but this is 4E and 4E does not allow for the creation of entirely new mechanical systems. Psionics in 4E will not be broken, it's just a flavored power source. At best we'll see a general theme of mental flavor but the mechanics will be bog standard.
1) Not everyone would agree that "psionics = bad" throughout D&D history.
2) 4E psionics =/= previous psionics. There is very little, if anything, in the monk preview that screams pseudo-science. The class has no sci-fi feel to it at all. If it does have a feel linked to a more modern fantasy genre, that would be wuxia.
3) Even if one accepts your "Psionics was born with D&D" viewpoint, why would a nearly 40-year-old fantasy trope be a bad thing for a modern game? You sound like the 4E bashers that refuse to weigh the game on its own merits because it is too far removed from their Tolkeinesque view of what D&D "should be."
As a game designer you should be more open minded. Stale products built on only what things were won't sell to the expanding audience.
As a final aside: The Psionic Monk is by no means a new concept. 1E D&D had the Psionic Monk write-up in Dragon Magazine. A friend played one in my campaigns to great enjoyment. The combination of the monk and psionics went well in hand with each other back then. Shadowrun had Physical Adepts, characters that used magic to enhance their melee abilities. 2E/3E had psychic warriors which were similar in concept.
If you had read the whole thread, you'd see I already conceded to the monk being a psionicist is not a problem for me, as how psionics works in 4e is completely different than all its broken pre-existing formats from 1e to 3e - so as I understand it now, there is no issue for me.
You are way late in the argument, especially since now I agree with that point of view. That was yesterday. I've already fixed the issue with my publication regarding the monk and ki powers. So there's no issue, not with me anyway.
You're barking up the wrong tree. Go find somebody else to flame.
When I first entered this discussion, the problem with my argument was:
a. I didn't understand how Psionics for 4e was different than previous versions - now I understand.
b. I didn't read the Monk Playtest, yet - now I have, and have conceded the point and accept it.
I'm in complete agreement, not completely pleased, but that isn't so important anymore, I can still make it work for my needs. Nuff said.
GP
PS: to Elemental Elf, yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. Don't need to belabor the point anymore. Besides I never included Shukenja and Wu Jen into the argument which I never considered Ki classes anyway. In fact I don't consider the Wu Jen as anything other than something G.Gygax invented, therefore not pertinent to a Japan setting. I've got Onmyoji Wizards who do that job or Jugondo Sorcerers - both a part of Japanese history, as Wu Jen were never part of any history except D&D.
If you had read the whole thread, you'd see I already conceded to the monk being a psionicist is not a problem for me, as how psionics works in 4e is completely different than all its broken pre-existing formats from 1e to 3e - so as I understand it now, there is no issue for me.
Psionics were not broken in 3.5.
Psionics in 3.5 was probably more balanced than either arcane or divine magic, and if something that has been a part of D&D since 1e & the mid-late 70s doesn't belong in D&D, then what does?
Actually Psionics was the most broken thing in 3.5. There is a way for a Psionicist in 3.5 to be able to defeat and kill every deity in the cosmos. Divine magic and Arcane magic paled in comparison.
They didn't give me Monks as Martial, but I had suggested Psi as a very acceptable alternative. The news that they went with it made me positively giddy. Add to that the bit about specific Asian variations on existing classes will be handled similarly to the gladiator stuff unless they've just got a great idea for it? Yeah, that article made me feel better about 4E's development than I have since I got the PHB.
The OP is classic. WoW has no Monk class or anything similar, and no psionics. But holycrap, something changed since 3.5!!1!
If psionics is already channeling your inner mental strength, what's ki... channeling your inner asian strength? That's just... dumb.
Psionics is channeling your inner mental strength.
Ki is channeling your inner spiritual strength.
Unless you're saying that only Asians have spirits.
The OP is classic. WoW has no Monk class or anything similar, and no psionics. But holycrap, something changed since 3.5!!1!
The OP was pulling our legs this time.
Psionics is channeling your inner mental strength.
Ki is channeling your inner spiritual strength.
Unless you're saying that only Asians have spirits.
So, Mind =/= Spirit?
Psionics is channeling your inner mental strength.
Ki is channeling your inner spiritual strength.
Unless you're saying that only Asians have spirits.
Problem is that the distinction comes from the game. Take away the game's efforts to distinguish the two, and they're exactly the same thing.
Explain to me exactly what a "Ki Leader" would be, then we'll talk.
The Sohei (Ki Leader) is adept at both disrupting his foes' spirit (melee-ranged debuffs), manipulating his allies' spirits (melee-ranged healing), and can call upon the spirits of his ancestors to inhabit him or his allies (dailies/utilities - encounter-long buffs).
Damn, now I want to build an entire power source on my own.
Wikipedia's inaccuracy is greatly exaggerated. Especially now that most articles link to a source. Just because its on Wikipedia doesn't mean that the info is invalid, sorry.
Wikipedia's as accurate as an old-style encyclopedia, and gets updated and corrected far more often. So no, don't use it as a primary source. But as an overview it's pretty good.
So, Mind =/= Spirit?
Not at all. PC races are tripartite beings, body, mind, soul. Or at least you could definitely see it that way.
But apparently the designers decided that forcing Asian Elemental Wizards into the Ki power source was more important than building a broad, culturally-neutral base for the monk to rest upon.
Actually Psionics was the most broken thing in 3.5. There is a way for a Psionicist in 3.5 to be able to defeat and kill every deity in the cosmos. Divine magic and Arcane magic paled in comparison.
I think you have it backwards. As usual.
Now it may be that this psionicist was somehow breaking the rules, or perhaps the other spellcasters in the party weren't as "smurfed out" in feats and abilities, but the psionicist in question was able to do a Schism so had three minds to work with, feats to allow for uber amounts of psionic points, while he still had points to spend, he could do a split ray Disintegrate, twinned and maximized allowing him to cast 8 discintegrates in a single round. Though he could only do this for 3 rounds before he spent most of his points, 8 maximized disintegrate caused more points of damage than the rest of the party put together in 10 rounds of combat. Combined with Lion's Charge, he could attack monsters with ACs the rest of the party couldn't even touch. "Swish, swish" went our attacks, and smoking hole, when the psionicist did his attacks...
Like I said, maybe he's cheating on the rules, or maybe the other PCs aren't properly buffed and/or applying their own uber feats to equate similar damage, the 3.5 Psionicist seems pretty broken to me.
Again, I wasn't the psionicist in the party and really haven't had anything to do with psionics personally (as a player) since 2e Dark Sun, but that seems quite out-of-hand broken to me. And psionics weren't that awfully broken until 3.5.
This was part of my angst in my original monk gone psionicist issue.
Again I didn't play the psionicist I just watched in horror as it happened every weekend - thank god, I wasn't the DM for that campaign.
GP
Not at all. PC races are tripartite beings, body, mind, soul. Or at least you could definitely see it that way.
But apparently the designers decided that forcing Asian Elemental Wizards into the Ki power source was more important than building a broad, culturally-neutral base for the monk to rest upon.
*cries* The third part is animus not mind. The mind is a byproduct of the interaction between the soul and animus(at least that is my best guess since instinct rests in the the animus and identity rests in the soul, memories exist in both).
No, according to AV, "weapon" is a type of item (not "sword" etc.), and according to the playtest, the unarmed strike is a "weapon".
So transferring an enchant from your unarmed strike to a dagger (or vice versa) is perfectly legit.
Fair enough, your right. The wording makes it sound like they have to match more specific types instead of just weapon. But hey that's all the better thanks for pointing that out.
Not at all. PC races are tripartite beings, body, mind, soul. Or at least you could definitely see it that way.
But apparently the designers decided that forcing Asian Elemental Wizards into the Ki power source was more important than building a broad, culturally-neutral base for the monk to rest upon.
Which designers are you talking about here?
So, Mind =/= Spirit?
If you suffer brain damage, is your soul hurt?
Psionic Monks?
Sounds like fun:
"Karate kick!"
"Judo Chop!"
"MIND LAZOR LOLOLOL"
...
"gtfo newb."
In all seriousness, I like the idea.
Not at all. PC races are tripartite beings,
Yup, they absolutely are. Paper, pencil, dice. I suppose they could have a fourth part though...player.
Sadly, the problem isn't elemental (a coherent thematic concept) but arcane - which bleeds all over everything. Elemental damage? Necrotic camage? Radiant damage? Power drawn from beings of the astral plane? Illusions? Teleportation? Shadows? Necromancy? Is there any power source that isn't coopted by the arcane?
I totally agree and I've been saying it for AGES!
Actually Psionics was the most broken thing in 3.5. There is a way for a Psionicist in 3.5 to be able to defeat and kill every deity in the cosmos. Divine magic and Arcane magic paled in comparison.
That was really more true of 2e psionics than 3.5.
3e psionics were likewise very "tacked-on".
3.5 had the most balanced psionic system to date. And as long as you were using the psionic-magic transparency (which is the default assumption), then no, a psionicist was not ridiculously overpowered.
And btw, as per your example, what level character are you citing? Because an epic level wizard could ALSO kill every deity printed in every book. Does that mean that wizards were overpowered and broken?
Your argument is flawed and unsupported, which is to be expected, given the source.
You make blanket statements that overgeneralize a marginal point and try to make it sound outrageous and ridiculous, thus dicrediting yourself. Also to be expected.
If you suffer brain damage, is your soul hurt?
Perhaps.
Fair enough, your right. The wording makes it sound like they have to match more specific types instead of just weapon. But hey that's all the better thanks for pointing that out.
No problem. I agree the "type" is sort of a kludge that they could have explained more clearly. Look at it this way: "type" refers to the "category" of the item, but not the broad category mentioned on PH p. 225, it's the more specific category that is the first line of every item description. They need this distinction so you don't transfer a wand enchant onto a staff, for example.
So the types of weapon enchants you can get on your unarmed strike would be the ones that read "Weapon: Any" or "Weapon: Any Melee".
(So no Jagged Fists, sadly :P )
The point is that its something that needs addressed explicitly when the final version comes out.
I disagree that is needs to be addressed explicitly in PHB3. Anyone with the AV has a solution. Anyone who spends 2 minutes thinking about it has a solution. Anyone unwilling to do either of these has the option to not allow monks in their campaign.
Anyone unwilling to do any of the above when the discrepency is pointed out to them (because clearly they won't realise themselves, what with refusing to spend 2 minutes of thought on the subject) should not be DMing a 4th ed game. Because any DM that fits the above criteria is going to have trouble in plenty of other areas.
That's all I'm getting at. Having it spelt out again would of course be nice. But I hardly think it was necessary the first time, let alone a second time.
If you suffer brain damage, is your soul hurt?
Dunno. Second I locate my soul and then suffer some brain damage I'll let you know. ;)
Mortals are a mix of Body, Animus and Soul.
The soul is the seat of "higher" thought and imagination.
The animus houses "Base" thought and instinct.
The body combines the animus and soul, and allows them to influence the world.
If you have brain damage, your soul isn't damaged - your body is, which prevents your soul from correctly percieving the world. It's like driving a car with a shattered windscreen.
Psionic power is innately bound to the soul. Without a soul, you can't concieve of a world different than how it is presented to you, so you can't change it. This includes dreaming, lying, and luck.
Not to join in on a new argument, but the last 3.5 campaign I was a player in (a monk by the way...), another player was a Psionicist. Now granted we were nearly epic, or at least multi-class with 15 levels or higher per class, however, the Psionicist just seemed way too powerful.
Now it may be that this psionicist was somehow breaking the rules, or perhaps the other spellcasters in the party weren't as "smurfed out" in feats and abilities, but the psionicist in question was able to do a Schism so had three minds to work with, feats to allow for uber amounts of psionic points, while he still had points to spend, he could do a split ray Disintegrate, twinned and maximized allowing him to cast 8 discintegrates in a single round. Though he could only do this for 3 rounds before he spent most of his points, 8 maximized disintegrate caused more points of damage than the rest of the party put together in 10 rounds of combat. Combined with Lion's Charge, he could attack monsters with ACs the rest of the party couldn't even touch. "Swish, swish" went our attacks, and smoking hole, when the psionicist did his attacks...
Like I said, maybe he's cheating on the rules, or maybe the other PCs aren't properly buffed and/or applying their own uber feats to equate similar damage, the 3.5 Psionicist seems pretty broken to me.
Again, I wasn't the psionicist in the party and really haven't had anything to do with psionics personally (as a player) since 2e Dark Sun, but that seems quite out-of-hand broken to me. And psionics weren't that awfully broken until 3.5.
This was part of my angst in my original monk gone psionicist issue.
Again I didn't play the psionicist I just watched in horror as it happened every weekend - thank god, I wasn't the DM for that campaign.
GP
What most likely happened here, Gameprinter, is that the player of the Psion was the only person at the table who knew the rules of the Psion, and was taking advantage of that to an insane degree.
Happened a lot at my previous table, until me and the other rules-guy learned just enough about the system to know what he was pulling.
Thing is, though, that happened because it was a subsystem that was entirely different from the base game. In 4E, everything uses the same basic system, so no power source is inherently superior or inferior to the others. Even if psionics was broken in 3.5 - it wasn't, just underutilized and exploited - we're talking about 4E now, and it's a whole new game.
Mortals are a mix of Body, Animus and Soul.
The soul is the seat of "higher" thought and imagination.
The animus houses "Base" thought and instinct.
The body combines the animus and soul, and allows them to influence the world.
Since we are talking about the fictional D&D world, source please.
Since we are talking about the fictional D&D world, source please.
The part about the there being three components; body, animus, and soul; to a sentient living creature can be found in Races and Classes and in Open Grave. You can also find occasional oblique references to them in other books as well (the Keeper of the Hidden Flame PP in PHB2 talks about animuses without using the word).
His explanations of the three are fairly accurate. Although I would point out that the animus is what actually allows the body to move and there are cases(mostly incorperal undead) of animus or animus/souls that do influence the world. Also the animus is what keeps the body and soul glued together.
Additionally I would disagree with the notion that psionics comes from the soul, as I feel the majority of psionic abilities are better explained through the animus than the soul.
Additionally I would disagree with the notion that psionics comes from the soul, as I feel the majority of psionic abilities are better explained through the animus than the soul.
I disagree, the animus is just life and instinct, the soul is what seperates humans from ghouls, it's what gives us true thought.
I'm thinking Primal power is more related to the animus(or at least the animus of earth), Martial is related to the body and Psionics are related to the soul.
Also, we should be careful not to confuse old Psionics with 4E Pisonics, we don't know that much about new Psionics.
The part about the there being three components; body, animus, and soul; to a sentient living creature can be found in Races and Classes and in Open Grave. You can also find occasional oblique references to them in other books as well (the Keeper of the Hidden Flame PP in PHB2 talks about animuses without using the word).
His explanations of the three are fairly accurate. Although I would point out that the animus is what actually allows the body to move and there are cases(mostly incorperal undead) of animus or animus/souls that do influence the world. Also the animus is what keeps the body and soul glued together.
Additionally I would disagree with the notion that psionics comes from the soul, as I feel the majority of psionic abilities are better explained through the animus than the soul.
I agree. Personally, I think that the best thing about dropping Ki is that we lose the Ki = Soul thing, because that was just wonky. Ki = Psi = animus? Yeah, that I can get behind.
There are really two types of power sources - external and internal. The more internal power sources we have, the more wacky it gets, as we're expected to believe that the existence of all PC races is more and more complex.
What most likely happened here, Gameprinter, is that the player of the Psion was the only person at the table who knew the rules of the Psion, and was taking advantage of that to an insane degree.
As I had said in my post, I had suspected that all along. But as a DM, I never really worried about the psionicist, as I didn't allow them in games I ran, so it never served me to learn the 3.5 psionics rules.
Its the lazy way, certainly, but it kept my games within some boundries of sanity.
GP
Its the lazy way, certainly, but it kept my games within some boundries of sanity.
GP
See, now i took an even saner route and banned clerics/druids/wizards but allowed psionics. ;)
That was really more true of 2e psionics than 3.5.
3e psionics were likewise very "tacked-on".
3.5 had the most balanced psionic system to date. And as long as you were using the psionic-magic transparency (which is the default assumption), then no, a psionicist was not ridiculously overpowered.
And btw, as per your example, what level character are you citing? Because an epic level wizard could ALSO kill every deity printed in every book. Does that mean that wizards were overpowered and broken?
Your argument is flawed and unsupported, which is to be expected, given the source.
You make blanket statements that overgeneralize a marginal point and try to make it sound outrageous and ridiculous, thus dicrediting yourself. Also to be expected.
Actually a 16th level Psionic could achieve divinity. My argument isn't flawed it's factual. My friend actually wrote WotC and showed him what he had done. All they could do is say mechanically that is 100% right, but morally it wasn't. And what I want you to do is i want you to make a Wizard that is capable of killing every deity in the 3rd edition books. There was a tiny flaw in Psionics that my friend found and made the entire system of Psionics broken beyond anything out there. It's really funny how just because you assume you are right that automatically makes me wrong. From the information that I have I know for a fact that you are the one that is flawed with your argument.
Actually a 16th level Psionic could achieve divinity. My argument isn't flawed it's factual. My friend actually wrote WotC and showed him what he had done. All they could do is say mechanically that is 100% right, but morally it wasn't. And what I want you to do is i want you to make a Wizard that is capable of killing every deity in the 3rd edition books. There was a tiny flaw in Psionics that my friend found and made the entire system of Psionics broken beyond anything out there. It's really funny how just because you assume you are right that automatically makes me wrong. From the information that I have I know for a fact that you are the one that is flawed with your argument.
Ever hear of Pun Pun? By level 4 (it might have been 6) he had every spell there was, indefinitely high ability scores, and infinite divine rank. Spoiler: he didn't use psionics.
Actually a 16th level Psionic could achieve divinity. My argument isn't flawed it's factual. My friend actually wrote WotC and showed him what he had done. All they could do is say mechanically that is 100% right, but morally it wasn't. And what I want you to do is i want you to make a Wizard that is capable of killing every deity in the 3rd edition books. There was a tiny flaw in Psionics that my friend found and made the entire system of Psionics broken beyond anything out there. It's really funny how just because you assume you are right that automatically makes me wrong. From the information that I have I know for a fact that you are the one that is flawed with your argument.
And your going to complain about a single flaw at 16th level? You realize that wizards could achieve divinity at level 1? Or the dozens upon dozens of over-powered flaws in the core magic system, in both divine and arcane magic?
Edit:They got Pun-Pun down to level 1 GhostStepper. Using wizard I do beleive
Edit:They got Pun-Pun down to level 1 GhostStepper. Using wizard I do beleive
I remember that the level kept getting lower and lower. At some point i stopped keeping track. lol
The fact was, there were multiple ways that non-psionic casters could get divine rank long before 16. This is why there are so many versions of Pun-Pun.
Actually a 16th level Psionic could achieve divinity. My argument isn't flawed it's factual. My friend actually wrote WotC and showed him what he had done. All they could do is say mechanically that is 100% right, but morally it wasn't. And what I want you to do is i want you to make a Wizard that is capable of killing every deity in the 3rd edition books. There was a tiny flaw in Psionics that my friend found and made the entire system of Psionics broken beyond anything out there. It's really funny how just because you assume you are right that automatically makes me wrong. From the information that I have I know for a fact that you are the one that is flawed with your argument.
Lol, "you are the one with the flawed argument". That's your riposte?
You provide no details, no facts, just a story about "Yuh-huh! I know a guy who did it!"
You have yet to provide actual facts, so your claim about your story being factual is baseless, and flat out untrue.
For example, you said 16th level psionic. Psionic what? Psychic Warrior? Soulknife? Wilder? Was he a Psion? What discipline? What powers/feats/Prestige Class did "your friend" use? You have provided no facts and thus your argument is not factual.
In other words: Prove it.
You claim that there was a "tiny flaw" that made the "entire system" broken beyong measure? What flaw exactly would this be? Are you perhaps referring to the psionics/magic non-transparency OPTIONAL rule that basically means if a character or creature is not itself psionic it has no defenses to psionics? That's not core, buddy.
Furthermore, actual ACHIEVEMENT of divine rank was something SOLELY handed out by the DM. A wizard, psion, whatever, can reach level 45 and NOT be a deity. A Demigod could be level 21. Divine rank is not a factor of level. And no one without a divine rank can kill a deity. You have to have divine rank yourself to permanently kill a deity, or be using something specifically that has the power to kill a god (such as the Crescent Blade in the WotSQ series). Without a divine rank, you could concieveably reduce a deity to 0 hp, but destroy him/her? No.
As usual, you ignore facts to make blanket statements and impossibly wild and outrageous claims unsupported by any evidence, and say "I'm right, and you are the one who is wrong".
This is the kind of immaturity and nonsense that you are criticized for on these forums.
That and your constant complaining about 4e, horrible misuse of syntax, and forum name that implies a drow fanboi.
I disagree, the animus is just life and instinct, the soul is what seperates humans from ghouls, it's what gives us true thought.
I'm thinking Primal power is more related to the animus(or at least the animus of earth), Martial is related to the body and Psionics are related to the soul.
Also, we should be careful not to confuse old Psionics with 4E Pisonics, we don't know that much about new Psionics.
No the soul is what seperates sentient living beings from nonsentient living beings(animals). What seperates sentient living beings from ghouls is a soul and a natural animus.
I will agree that primal has a strong connection with animuses, but the connection is with the animus of the world itself not with the animus present inside the player character himself. The same kind of connection can be said to exist with divine characters and the souls of the gods.
And I'll be sure not to confuse old psionics with 4E psionics.....which will be easy since the only thing I remember about the old psionics is ooze and crystals. What I meant was the majority of stereotypical psionic abilities such as telekinesis, telepathy, and mind control fit better with the animus as the base rather than the soul. I'd even say that the monk they presented makes more sense as being a person who draws power from controlling their animus rather than a person who controls their soul.
I still say the name should be changed but I guess I just don't have enough experience with Psionics.
No the soul is what seperates sentient living beings from nonsentient living beings(animals). What seperates sentient living beings from ghouls is a soul and a natural animus.
I will agree that primal has a strong connection with animuses, but the connection is with the animus of the world itself not with the animus present inside the player character himself. The same kind of connection can be said to exist with divine characters and the souls of the gods.
True and double true; also, animal ghouls are wicked harsh and Psionics are not for the weak souled.
You know...if they couldn't make four classes for Ki then maybe we'll see another Psionic class with a very 'Ki' feeling to it. Two Ki classes and two Psychic class to form the new Psionic power source...
Or the entire power source may have a Ki feel added to it. I just blew your mind.
Or the entire power source may have a Ki feel added to it. I just blew your mind.
With your Ki!!
:P
True. Though we might see more of the 'Ki' flavor (i.e. using focus to affect one own's body) in the defender than in the Controller and Leader who might end up with more of the 'Psychic' flavor (i.e. using focus to affect the world around one's self).
See, now i took an even saner route and banned clerics/druids/wizards but allowed psionics. ;)
That's Atheism. A world without God Classes, and without Classes that worship Gods.
Actually a 16th level Psionic could achieve divinity. My argument isn't flawed it's factual. My friend actually wrote WotC and showed him what he had done. All they could do is say mechanically that is 100% right, but morally it wasn't. And what I want you to do is i want you to make a Wizard that is capable of killing every deity in the 3rd edition books. There was a tiny flaw in Psionics that my friend found and made the entire system of Psionics broken beyond anything out there. It's really funny how just because you assume you are right that automatically makes me wrong. From the information that I have I know for a fact that you are the one that is flawed with your argument.
Do a quick search in google for "pun pun".
Monk + Rouge hybrid = fun beatdown goodness
Digging the Monk playtest, even moreso if you consider the hybrid class rules.
Monk + Rouge hybrid = fun beatdown goodness
Cant sneak attack with those fists though. And there is not a Hybrid for the Monk yet and wont be until at least PHB3
Cant sneak attack with those fists though. And there is not a Hybrid for the Monk yet and wont be until at least PHB3
You can if you take Ruthless Ruffian and wear the Belt of the Brawler, I think.
Not completely. Hybrid rogues can only sneak attack with their Rogue powers.
Yep; that's why I hope the Monk MC feat just grants the Unarmed Combatant class feature, so all classes can get in on the action.
Cant sneak attack with those fists though. And there is not a Hybrid for the Monk yet and wont be until at least PHB3
wait... so Rogues can only attack while armed?
thats lame.
wait... so Rogues can only attack while armed?
thats lame.
Rogues can only use their Sneak Attack with qualified weapons.
Rogues can only use their Sneak Attack with qualified weapons.
Not the complete picture. Most of their Attack Powers (if not all) require them to be weilding a light blade or a crossbow.
They can attack with other weapons, they are just limited to basic attacks with no Sneak Attack damage when doing so.
Yep; that's why I hope the Monk MC feat just grants the Unarmed Combatant class feature, so all classes can get in on the action.
Id think they would have to make some official ruling on the brawler belt or else some DMs wont allow the unarmed sneak attack. I wonder if a rogue feat would make sense, or would it be too niche?