DEX +STR or WIS based
Has neat 'full discipline' powers.
Can't say I'm really complaining....
I guess they decided to scrap the Ki power source and just make them Psionic.
They removed the monk from the Ki classes to keep that power source from being watered down.
Reread it, I was wrog Ki got scrapped.
Article: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/2009May
Play test: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090511
- It's what the Monk is anyway. I've always seen them as mind over matter and now the books agree.
- It makes it easier to present in a non-eastern fashion. It may just be me but I find this easier to imagine in other ways. The mention in the design and development article of a monk concept that combines scimtar attacks with aunarmed attacks made me want to play one :D
At first glance I'm really happy with the monk. Looks like it would be a lot of fun to play.
It's not like psionic doesn't come with its own cultural siginificants, so it was more of a "we will just go with this culture over that culture."
Why call it a monk at all then is now the new question? Might as well call it the psionic warrior, or make up some new name all together. Why try to put a martial discipline spin on it, when said martial discipline for the most part focuses on utilizing such terms as Ki or Chi or Qui, and so on.
When Ki in and of itself was the spiritual flow of ones self/energies, why label it as being the equivelant of what you call psionic? Which in and of itself is entirely mental and how that mental power can effect ones self as well as enviroment?
Again, I'm happy that they made a unarmed fighting class, but this is neither a good respectful way of doing it or a all in all bad way.
It might as well be called something other than monk because in and of the monk tradition, the key recognizing factor of it has now been changed only to suit a demographic that would have utilized it regardless of what its origin or power sources implied. In other words "Cop Out!"
Stay classy, boards.
Rest in Peace, Ki Power Source, Golden Wyvern school.
Why call it a monk at all then is now the new question? Might as well call it the psionic warrior, or make up some new name all together. Why try to put a martial discipline spin on it, when said martial discipline for the most part focuses on utilizing such terms as Ki or Chi or Qui, and so on.
It's still a mostly unarmed and unarmored ascetic that sits around contemplating the cosmos and trains their mind and body until they're capable of super human feats. They don't see the future, they don't have telekinetic powers, they don't read minds. They're still monks in every sense that other classes bearing the name were still monks.
Mind over matter. Something you hear repeatedly every time you see some Tibetan monk on TV having his hand rolled over by a truck, or lifting a hundred pounds with his teeth.
Psionic isn't just the "psychic" power source anymore. It's now the new age, third eye, karma/reincarnation, crystal healing, see beyond the illusions of the universe and seek the truth within because there's a universe inside of us all power source. The power source is capable of going more broadly Asian than specific terms like ki, chi, or others could have, but also still be more familiar to more western audiences given new age spiritualism.
Ki was stupid anyway, I'm glad they saw the error of their ways.
At first glance I'm really happy with the monk. Looks like it would be a lot of fun to play.
This.
I am pro-non eastern descriptions of any and all classes, especially monk.
It does make me wonder if they have any plans to replace the Ki power source with something else. I remember a lot of talk about integrating Incarnum - that might make a viable replacement.
I look forward to seeing even more of it. I love the full discipline mechanic, and the new flavor. In my mind, it realy unifies the monk with the rest of the classes, instead of feeling like they inserted an eastern archetype in a western fantasy. Overall there are things missing that I want to see, but this is a very narrow-scoped playtest... I'll be watching like a hawk for further development.
It's still a mostly unarmed and unarmored ascetic that sits around contemplating the cosmos and trains their mind and body until they're capable of super human feats. They don't see the future, they don't have telekinetic powers, they don't read minds. They're still monks in every sense that other classes bearing the name were still monks.
Mind over matter. Something you hear repeatedly every time you see some Tibetan monk on TV having his hand rolled over by a truck, or lifting a hundred pounds with his teeth.
Psionic isn't just the "psychic" power source anymore. It's now the new age, third eye, karma/reincarnation, crystal healing, see beyond the illusions of the universe and seek the truth within because there's a universe inside of us all power source. The power source is capable of going more broadly Asian than specific terms like ki, chi, or others could have, but also still be more familiar to more western audiences given new age spiritualism.
Important note: Fluff is nonbinding. I assure you, the monk I intend to play is not going to be some navel-contemplating mystic. He's going to be a back-alley street brawler, with powers and features renamed and refluffed.
What? I'm allowed to hate the stupid Azn is different cause it's Azn! mentality.
Now if we could just convince people that Rogues and Ninjas are the same damn thing already.
So I'm definitely in support of this...
Important note: Fluff is nonbinding. I assure you, the monk I intend to play is not going to be some navel-contemplating mystic. He's going to be a back-alley street brawler, with powers and features renamed and refluffed.
I liked to play on the idea as well. I had a character that still used mind over matter, but mind was more of a dogged, single minded determination. You ****** him off, so he WAS going to bash your skull in, even if he had to do with their bare hands. The fact that you're a 50 foot long dragon didn't even factor into the equation.
With a lack alignment restrictions, it should be easier than ever.
I'm also guessing (or rather hoping) that the Monk multi-class will at the very least give you Unarmed Attacks as a weapon. If so, you could take this alone and combine it with pretty much any other melee class for awesome characters. Unarmed Fighters, Paladins, Warlords, Rangers, Swordmages, Clerics, Avengers, Barbarians, Wardens (I'd really like this one), and possibly Rogues.
*dances on Ki's grave.*
What? I'm allowed to hate the stupid Azn is different cause it's Azn! mentality.
Yes, you are and that would be pertinent to this situation if that was the stated aim of the Ki class instead of the gibbering conniptions of the board's speculators.
The designers must be browncoats, 'cause this is the second time I've seen a Leaf on the Wind power. Before, it was a Warlord encounter power (level 1). Pretty weird, isn't it?
I just noticed something...
The designers must be browncoats, 'cause this is the second time I've seen a Leaf on the Wind power. Before, it was a Warlord encounter power (level 1). Pretty weird, isn't it?
And a browncoat is ... ?
Could somebody please give a quick overview of the full discipline mechanic for those of us that aren't subscribers please? I'm assuming it's the Monks way of getting bonus damage. I don't want full details (I'll get those when I finally get around to subscribing!) just a brief description.
Thanks!
A browncoat is a fan or the TV series Firefly.
Could somebody please give a quick overview of the full discipline mechanic for those of us that aren't subscribers please? I'm assuming it's the Monks way of getting bonus damage. I don't want full details (I'll get those when I finally get around to subscribing!) just a brief description.
Thanks!
No, Full Discipline is just this thing attached to his powers that let them be used in more than one way, to either attack or as a movement option.
Their extra damage is Flurry of Blows, and the flurry option we've been given lets you deal WIS damage to an adjacent enemy or adjacent enemies and also slide them around all as a free action when you hit with an attack.
The designers must be browncoats, 'cause this is the second time I've seen a Leaf on the Wind power. Before, it was a Warlord encounter power (level 1). Pretty weird, isn't it?
Why would the designers have to be a fan of a TV show to use that phrase? Firefly didn't invent it, you know.
Monk at-will and encounter powers have the quirk of having two "modes". They have an attack technique, which is the attack power itself, and a fairly useless movement technique, which gives you special movement through expending your power. Generally, it's a waste of ink. :P
I disagree that it's useless. I'm still not sure I understand how it works yet, but from what I can tell, you can most certainly use both the movement option and attack option for a full discipline power in the same round, and yes, that even applied to encounter powers.
"You can use only one full discipline power
per round... You can use the
techniques of a full discipline power in whatever
order you like, and you can choose to use one of
the techniques and not the other during a par-
ticular round."
So spending an encounter power with full discipline lets you use both of the options it grants or one or the other. Whatever you want.
I disagree that it's useless. I'm still not sure I understand how it works yet, but from what I can tell, you can most certainly use both the movement option and attack option for a full discipline power in the same round.
This is correct. It kinda-sorta gives you two encounter powers for the price of one. You can use the move action, and/or the standard action in the same round. What you can't do is use aspects of two different Full Discipline powers in the same round without using an Action Point.
Why would the designers have to be a fan of a TV show to use that phrase? Firefly didn't invent it, you know.
Because I don't want to say they're hacks who keep reusing the same power names, that's why. :P
I disagree that it's useless. I'm still not sure I understand how it works yet, but from what I can tell, you can most certainly use both the movement option and attack option for a full discipline power in the same round.
You can use only one full discipline power
per round. However, if you spend an action
point to take an extra action, you can switch to
a different full discipline power. You can use the
techniques of a full discipline power in whatever
order you like, and you can choose to use one of
the techniques and not the other during a particular
round.
The number of times you can use a full
discipline power’s techniques during a round
is determined by the power’s type—at-will or
encounter—and by the actions you have available
that round. For example, you can use the
techniques of an at-will full discipline power as
many times during a round as you like, provided
you have enough of the required actions, but
you can use the techniques of an encounter full
discipline power once during a round.
...So yeah, useless. Only one technique per round for encounter powers, and you can't even use two different full disciplines per turn!
Edit: Hmm...weird, you CAN use both in a single turn. I stand corrected. However, powers with Full Discipline generally seem less effective with their attack technique than others, perhaps to compensate for the versatility.
...So yeah, useless. Only one technique per round for encounter powers, and you can't even use two different full disciplines per turn!
No, when you use an encounter power, you gain access to both of those techniques for that round. You can use both the movement and the attack option or one or the other.
"You can use the
techniques of a full discipline power in whatever
order you like, and you can choose to use one of
the techniques and not the other during a par-
ticular round."
EDIT: We're getting ahead of each other and ourselves with our edits here. :P
Fan of the TV show Firefly
I'm surprised enough of them exist to have a group nickname.
Monk at-will and encounter powers have the quirk of having two "modes". They have an attack technique, which is the attack power itself, and a fairly useless movement technique, which gives you special movement through expending your power. Generally, it's a waste of ink.
That's not how it works, no. You are able to use the attack portion of the power with a standard action, and you can use the movement portion using a move action. The flexibility comes in being able to mix and match actions, so that you can, for example using the at-will Cranes Wings attack, do a super jump and then do the attack, or attack and then jump, or forgo attacking in order to jump twice, or jump and then charge, or do the pushing attack and then shift or move normally.
The two big restrictions are that you can't use the movement or attack option for more than one style in a round, so you can't combine the jump from Cranes Wings with the knockdown attack from Dragons Tail, and you can't use any portion of an encounter power twice. (So you can use both the move and the attack option for Drunken Monkey, but you can't use the attack twice or the move twice, and you can't combine the attack or the move with that of a different style)
Using an action point lets you change style for that action, so that you can use Drunken Monkey and then burn an action point to follow up with Dragons Tail.
No, when you use an encounter power, you gain access to both of those techniques for that round. You can use both the movement and the attack option or one or the other.
"You can use only one full discipline power
per round... You can use the
techniques of a full discipline power in whatever
order you like, and you can choose to use one of
the techniques and not the other during a par-
ticular round."
To quote Yoda: "The power of the ninja, strong in this one it is." :P
I think I'm going to have to go get that subscription right now, I want to see more of this!
Well I don't dislike the idea of monks being Psionic, it does kind of lessen the stream of potential classes. I guess certain archtypes will be left up to flavoring and really, thats okay in some cases but not in all.
It's not like psionic doesn't come with its own cultural siginificants, so it was more of a "we will just go with this culture over that culture."
Why call it a monk at all then is now the new question? Might as well call it the psionic warrior, or make up some new name all together. Why try to put a martial discipline spin on it, when said martial discipline for the most part focuses on utilizing such terms as Ki or Chi or Qui, and so on.
When Ki in and of itself was the spiritual flow of ones self/energies, why label it as being the equivelant of what you call psionic? Which in and of itself is entirely mental and how that mental power can effect ones self as well as enviroment?
Again, I'm happy that they made a unarmed fighting class, but this is neither a good respectful way of doing it or a all in all bad way.
It might as well be called something other than monk because in and of the monk tradition, the key recognizing factor of it has now been changed only to suit a demographic that would have utilized it regardless of what its origin or power sources implied. In other words "Cop Out!"
i don't see the cop out. in my mind the monk's always been psionic it just had the asian word "ki" attached to it to make it sound exotic. be it through great enlightenment and understanding or gained through weird scientific tests, in my mind the division goes like this:
-psionics has always been using your own energies to affect the world around you
-arcane has always been using pre-existing energies to affect the world around you
-divine has always been using the will of an entity to affect the world around you
-martial uses rigorous training to perform great feats that seem supernatural to the untrained
now 4th edition has introduced primal, which seems to be using spiritual powers/energies, a cross between arcane and divine... not an entity, but more then just untapped energy.
to use an example
psionic - the monk uses his power of the self to repeatedly insert his fist into your skull like an engine's piston at full power.
arcane - the wizard uses his knowledge to manipulate the energies around him to have that big rock lodge itself in you head at high velocity.
divine - the cleric requests aid from his deity (or a deity's avatar/messenger) who drops a rock from heaven and caves in the enemy's head.
primal - the barbarian roars and channels the spirit of the bear which gives him greater strength to crush his enemy's head using his maul.
martial - the fighter pushes away his enemy's attack dropping his guard and giving the fighter a chance to introduce Mr.Mace to Ms.Face.
And a browncoat is ... ?
A browncoat is a firefly/serenity version of a trekky.
Now if we could just convince people that Rogues and Ninjas are the same damn thing already.
No more the same thing then Fighters and Paladins. If 'tough guy in heavy armor who hurts things with weapons' can cover more then one class, then so can 'quick guy in light armor who hurts things with weapons'.
I agree that rogue perfectly covers the more down to earth, physical training type ninja. But the 'turns invisible, teleports through shadows, kills enemies with a mix of weapon skill and black magic' mystical ninja is also a strong fantasy archetype, one worthy of a place in D&D. And that character type is not sufficiently covered by the rogue class.
I don't care if they call it 'ninja', 'shadowdancer', 'assassin', or something else, but that character concept is distinct enough to warrant a class of its own.
I'm surprised enough of them exist to have a group nickname.
There were and still are many. It was a very good show, arguably Whedon's best work to date. It suffered greatly however, from hype backlash around the time of the movie.
No more the same thing then Fighters and Paladins. If 'tough guy in heavy armor who hurts things with weapons' can cover more then one class, then so can 'quick guy in light armor who hurts things with weapons'.
I agree that rogue perfectly covers the more down to earth, physical training type ninja. But the 'turns invisible, teleports through shadows, kills enemies with a mix of weapon skill and black magic' mystical ninja is also a strong fantasy archetype, one worthy of a place in D&D. And that character type is not sufficiently covered by the rogue class.
I don't care if they call it 'ninja', 'shadowdancer', 'assassin', or something else, but that character concept is distinct enough to warrant a class of its own.
I agree. The ninja should be more 'fantasy' than the rogue. Clouds of darkness, teleporting, walking through walls, turning invisible, that sort of thing (not 'highly visible ninjas').
There are several powers or more from each of those power sources that already use any theme you could apply to Shadow or Elemental power sources. So why have them? If everything is just about us reflavoring our characters into what we want, then you might as well, stop at Martial, Divine, Arcane, Primal and Psionic and tell us that you can flavor it whatever like these are the primary sources of all power and abilities in 4e, and are the closest relations to anything you could ever want to do.
and its not just like im arriving at these points as other board members and ddi members have already come to this conclusion.
At some point its just going to be about trying to come up with another slew of class features and doing what they are already telling us to do in terms of flavoring our heroes to be what we want. Might as well release anything thats close to a conceptual idea like Necromancer as another build option in Arcane Power 2, and Death Master as a Divine version in Divine Power, and Blighter for a Primal version for whatever classes fit the primary role of these shadowy classes. Thats why I find it kind of a cop out.
Apply to same thing to the elemental power source and any other future power source planned.
because thats what it feels like, a cop out. Because when you look at it Elemental and Shadow are also power sources that already fall under the catch 24 of Arcane, Divine, or Primal.
There are several powers or more from each of those power sources that already use any theme you could apply to Shadow or Elemental power sources. So why have them? If everything is just about us reflavoring our characters into what we want, then you might as well, stop at Martial, Divine, Arcane, Primal and Psionic and tell us that you can flavor it whatever like these are the primary sources of all power and abilities in 4e, and are the closest relations to anything you could ever want to do.
and its not just like im arriving at these points as other board members and ddi members have already come to this conclusion.
At some point its just going to be about trying to come up with another slew of class features and doing what they are already telling us to do in terms of flavoring our heroes to be what we want.
You say this as if power source is important. Just scratch off 'psionic' and write in 'ki' (or, for the monk I have in mind, Martial) on the power cards. Power sources are far more fluff than mechanic.
The monk weapons will likely need some additional clarification. The Rogue Weapon Talent feature gives a +1 to hit with daggers. There are a number of new weapons like the parrying dagger and kukri that count as daggers for the Rogue Weapon Talent feature. They will probably have to add additional wording for weapons like this to clarify whether or not they count as a monk weapon. There are weapons that appear to resemble monk weapons and may be used as monk weapons like the basic version of the weapon.
You say this as if power source is important. Just scratch off 'psionic' and write in 'ki' (or, for the monk I have in mind, Martial) on the power cards. Power sources are far more fluff than mechanic.
i am very much aware of this, but people pretty much asked me to defend my view point and thats all I'm doing. Like I said, I don't really much care for them making it psionic, but it works. I admitted this already, but I'm also defending my opinion that it could have gone either way and people still would have accepted it regardless.
And it is a PSIONIC? striker
:OMG!
Mostly shock, but also pleased.
As long as we thought we were getting Ki in PH3, I felt that would mean some sort of OA instead of Dark Sun since doing the "azn" power source and just having it sit there would probably tick the haters off. While I'm not someone who hates on OA (and I really don't want it hated on), I've been looking forward to Dark Sun since.... I'm not quite sure when when I caught it. I've never played it, but the setting in Dragon really did catch my interest when they updated it for 3.5.
I'm going to be really sad if it's not Dark Sun now.
DEX +STR or WIS based
What's the fluff for the STR and WIS options?
because thats what it feels like, a cop out. Because when you look at it Elemental and Shadow are also power sources that already fall under the catch 24 of Arcane, Divine, or Primal.
Of the 'magical' (ie, non-martial) power sources, only primal is at all distinct from Arcane. Arcane just bleeds over everything. Why have a divine power source - arcane can already cast healing spells (see bard), deal radiant damage (see wizard), draw power from beings of the Astral Sea (see warlock), and channel magical energy through a weapon (see swordmage). So if arcane can do all this, why did we need a divine power source?
That arcane also steps on the toes of both shadow, psionic, and elemental magic, then I'd say the problem is with the arcane power source, not with the others, each of which covers distinc concepts that don't overlap with each other yet retain sufficient conceptual room for a full suite of classes.
In 4e, the arcane power source doesn't have any defining feature, concept, or theme. If it's magic, arcane can do it. That's not what power sources should be. I hope when 5e comes around that they just say Arcane = Magic in the general sence, and Divine, Psionic, Shadow, Elemental, and so on represent the various power sources with produce arcane energies.
Of the 'magical' (ie, non-martial) power sources, only primal is at all distinct from Arcane. Arcane just bleeds over everything. Why have a divine power source - arcane can already cast healing spells (see bard), deal radiant damage (see wizard), draw power from beings of the Astral Sea (see warlock), and channel magical energy through a weapon (see swordmage). So if arcane can do all this, why did we need a divine power source?
That arcane also steps on the toes of both shadow, psionic, and elemental magic, then I'd say the problem is with the arcane power source, not with the others, each of which covers distinc concepts that don't overlap with each other yet retain sufficient conceptual room for a full suite of classes.
In 4e, the arcane power source doesn't have any defining feature, concept, or theme. If it's magic, arcane can do it. That's not what power sources should be. I hope when 5e comes around that they just say Arcane = Magic in the general sence, and Divine, Psionic, Shadow, Elemental, and so on represent the various power sources with produce arcane energies.
Actually, there is a defining theme behind arcane magic. It is based on classic alchemy principles, effectively working like a "science". Whereas other power sources are pulled from gods, spirits, or just innate talent, arcane works under the precept that magic is a fundamental part of the world that can be manipulated to generate an effect.
The bastard son of the arcane power source would be the warlock. Of all the classes, their power almost doesn't fit as arcane, seeing as it is pulled from another source more akin to a number of other power sources. However, there is one part of the warlock class that is most decidedly arcane, and it is this part which supposedly defines the entire class: the pact. The warlock works under the precept that contracts in the world of D&D (or at least a specific type of contract called a "pact") can work as an eternally binding fundamental concept of the world, just like the rest of the arcane power source.
What's the fluff for the STR and WIS options?
We only have the "Centred Breath"(WIS option) tradition(Tradition=monk paths) at this point, it reads
"The Centered Breath tradition focuses on honing your mental awareness to better harness psionic magic. This tradition teaches that only by controlling yourself can you control your environment. The tradition’s adherents are typically ascetics, whose monasteries stand in quiet corners of the world, where the monks can train and study without distraction. In some of these monasteries, speech is forbidden except for one hour each day."
Having read the playtest, I like the idea. The powers feel like Monk powers, not like psion powers, and the concept of Mind Over Matter has long been the basis of many monastic traditions. I feel like Monks using the power of their mind to achieve nigh-superhuman physical feats is right in line with the legendary "Tibetan Monk" archetype that inspired that class in the first place.
Well I don't dislike the idea of monks being Psionic, it does kind of lessen the stream of potential classes. I guess certain archtypes will be left up to flavoring and really, thats okay in some cases but not in all.
It's not like psionic doesn't come with its own cultural siginificants, so it was more of a "we will just go with this culture over that culture."
Why call it a monk at all then is now the new question? Might as well call it the psionic warrior, or make up some new name all together. Why try to put a martial discipline spin on it, when said martial discipline for the most part focuses on utilizing such terms as Ki or Chi or Qui, and so on.
When Ki in and of itself was the spiritual flow of ones self/energies, why label it as being the equivelant of what you call psionic? Which in and of itself is entirely mental and how that mental power can effect ones self as well as enviroment?
Again, I'm happy that they made a unarmed fighting class, but this is neither a good respectful way of doing it or a all in all bad way.
It might as well be called something other than monk because in and of the monk tradition, the key recognizing factor of it has now been changed only to suit a demographic that would have utilized it regardless of what its origin or power sources implied. In other words "Cop Out!"
I believe that you're looking at a changed conception of Monk, but not of Psionics. If psionics is redefined as manifestations of self-engeries, it makes perfect sense. I completely agree with this change.
I always knew the Monk was going to make an appearance, and because of the power source system I also guessed it would be psionics.
I also was suprised at the Psionic power source change for the Monk. Though I really could care less if it was Ki or Psionic, I'm just glad we got the Monk.
Actually, there is a defining theme behind arcane magic. It is based on classic alchemy principles, effectively working like a "science".
Except, like you say, for the Warlock, which derives power from other beings. And also sorcerer, which derives power from inborn natural talent (indeed, the Chaos sorcerer is just about the drop dead opposite of your definition). And Bard, which derives power as much from spontaneous inspiration as from deliberate craft.
And the important distinction is that there is no effect or power that can be generated by the Divine, Psionic, Shadow, or Elemental power source that couldn't also be incorporated into the arcane. When each of those concepts could easily cover have a dozen related but unique classes, while remaining totally distinct from one another, I'm inclined to think that 'arcane' is simply too broad a concept.
The implements discussion is a little vague on how properties and powers of these weapons work when the item is used as an implement.
Beyond that, it seems like an interesting class. AC will be a struggle for such a melee intensive class.
It seems like it will be a pretty reliable hitter with reasonable striker damage and control added on top.
I think that Dancing Cobra will be popular for the speed bonus and the reliable attack (you get to add proficiency and it attacks reflex). An elven monk with dancing cobra can really move in a round if it wants to do so... I wonder if they'll have an at-will option that targets two foes like twin strike...
Oh - and that artwork on page 1 of the article ... what race is the being on the right of the picture? Githyanki? Githzerai? Is that a hint at a PHB III race?
I built a 19th level elven monk last night just to see what it might look like - with a few feats I think we'll see in PHB III. It seems very viable, and a lot of fun - although I think the discipline movement is not going to be used as often as people might be thinking.
Stun appears ONCE in this document - in the Ghostwalker paragon path 20th level power. I thought that was a bit odd. I was fearful that monks may have too much stunning given their history, but I expected to see a few powers that could stun.
After reading through the playtest article one of the first things that I felt was odd about it was that none of the Monk's at-will abilities scale up at 21st level.
I'd be shocked if they do not scale up in the final version...
Except, like you say, for the Warlock, which derives power from other beings. And also sorcerer, which derives power from inborn natural talent (indeed, the Chaos sorcerer is just about the drop dead opposite of your definition). And Bard, which derives power as much from spontaneous inspiration as from deliberate craft.
And the important distinction is that there is no effect or power that can be generated by the Divine, Psionic, Shadow, or Elemental power source that couldn't also be incorporated into the arcane. When each of those concepts could easily cover have a dozen related but unique classes, while remaining totally distinct from one another, I'm inclined to think that 'arcane' is simply too broad a concept.
Perhaps that broadness is why arcane is arcane to begin with. Arcane is the manipulation of energy, be it dark, light, fire, ice, etc. etc. Jack of all trades, master of none. The single unifying concept is that it involves the spontaneous manipulation of this energy in a way that suggests mysticism.
But does this mean you can disenchant them andyou are left with stumps when your hands turn to residium?
Except, like you say, for the Warlock, which derives power from other beings. And also sorcerer, which derives power from inborn natural talent (indeed, the Chaos sorcerer is just about the drop dead opposite of your definition). And Bard, which derives power as much from spontaneous inspiration as from deliberate craft.
And the important distinction is that there is no effect or power that can be generated by the Divine, Psionic, Shadow, or Elemental power source that couldn't also be incorporated into the arcane. When each of those concepts could easily cover have a dozen related but unique classes, while remaining totally distinct from one another, I'm inclined to think that 'arcane' is simply too broad a concept.
Actually, chaos sorcery draws magic from the fundamental energies of the elemental chaos... which sounds right in line with the rest of them (arcane magic being the power source that derives from the world or environment, and not from some living or philosophical entity). As for bards, they "channel magical power through words and music, studying long and hard to master the power contained in the lore and sagas of old." In other words, the fundamental power of word or music (which works in a fantasy world where words and music can actually contain power).
I love the fact you can enchant your hands...
But does this mean you can disenchant them andyou are left with stumps when your hands turn to residium?
Even worse, does it mean that a monk that prefers unarmed combat, as opposed to staff, dagger, et. al., will be forced to spend his monetary treasure to keep up his enhancement bonuses? Or can you find, say, a mummifed monkey paw or something?
Even worse, does it mean that a monk that prefers unarmed combat, as opposed to staff, dagger, et. al., will be forced to spend his monetary treasure to keep up his enhancement bonuses? Or can you find, say, a mummifed monkey paw or something?
We'll see, i wouldnt be surprised if there is some sort of items to apply to hands for a perment bonus.
Even worse, does it mean that a monk that prefers unarmed combat, as opposed to staff, dagger, et. al., will be forced to spend his monetary treasure to keep up his enhancement bonuses? Or can you find, say, a mummifed monkey paw or something?
If Enchant Magic Item works to give unarmed attacks a bonus, I don't see why you can't just use Transfer Enchantment to put the magic from random treasure onto your fists.
We only have the "Centred Breath"(WIS option) tradition(Tradition=monk paths) at this point, it reads
"The Centered Breath tradition focuses on honing your mental awareness to better harness psionic magic. This tradition teaches that only by controlling yourself can you control your environment. The tradition’s adherents are typically ascetics, whose monasteries stand in quiet corners of the world, where the monks can train and study without distraction. In some of these monasteries, speech is forbidden except for one hour each day."
Thanks.
Doesn't sound too far off from what I imagined. STR probably ends up being the honing of the mind through the honing of the body and that works quite well for me.
I love the fact you can enchant your hands...
But does this mean you can disenchant them andyou are left with stumps when your hands turn to residium?
I wonder if they got that idea from my Monk class, posted months ago? A lot of people told me it was a stupid idea, but apparently the writers at WotC disagree.
On one hand, it means you aren't going to have enchanted hands/feet above your own level (unlike other PCs who can find items as much as their own level +4.) On the other hand, the monk can never be deprived of those weapons, while a fighter can be taken captive and lose his +5 sword.
no a monk can be deprived of his hands the same way any character can be...
CHOP!
Yes.. Yes they can.
Perhaps that broadness is why arcane is arcane to begin with. Arcane is the manipulation of energy, be it dark, light, fire, ice, etc. etc. Jack of all trades, master of none. The single unifying concept is that it involves the spontaneous manipulation of this energy in a way that suggests mysticism.
All power sources, or at least all magical power sources, involve the manipulation of energy. There is nothing in your description which would point to arcane as a distinct power source.
If Arcane = Any Magic What-So-Ever, then don't make it a power source. Make it the overarching understanding of magic, of which all the the magical power sources are a part.
If you can't look at a power source and say 'this or that mechanical effect is inappropriate for that power source', then the power source is too broadly defined. I'd rather not have good, coherent, fluffy ideas like the Shadow or Psionic power source marginalized because nobody ever bothered to define the boarders of the Arcane.
Actually, chaos sorcery draws magic from the fundamental energies of the elemental chaos... which sounds right in line with the rest of them (arcane magic being the power source that derives from the world or environment, and not from some living or philosophical entity).
Escept that Warlocks do in fact derive power from some living or philosophical entity. And I was responding to the assertion that the defining feature of the arcane was a scientific, alchemical disposition - itself a rather insufficient and indistinct description (taclords are the intelligent, measured, scientists of the battlefield. Should they be arcane?). Chaos sorcerers do not fit that description, as their mechanics are specifically created to subvert it. Chaos sorcerers perform the same actions over and over expecting different results - the classical definition of madness - and actually achieve wildly different results, undermining the premise of the scientific method. They do not fit the classical archetype of the alchemist.
And your definition of arcane magic is again too broad, even if it weren't contradicted by warlocks. There are far too few mechanical effects you could point to and say 'that's not appropriate for arcane users' under your definition. Again, there are several mechanically and thematically distinct potential power sources, each with easily enough conceptual room for half a dozen classes, that Arcane overlaps too heavily.
Now, it's too late to fix Arcane (this edition), but I still don't want to see the bloat from Arcane push good ideas like Shadow out of the picture.
Escept that Warlocks do in fact derive power from some living or philosophical entity. And I was responding to the assertion that the defining feature of the arcane was a scientific, alchemical disposition - itself a rather insufficient and indistinct description (taclords are the intelligent, measured, scientists of the battlefield. Should they be arcane?). Chaos sorcerers do not fit that description, as their mechanics are specifically created to subvert it. Chaos sorcerers perform the same actions over and over expecting different results - the classical definition of madness - and actually achieve wildly different results, undermining the premise of the scientific method. They do not fit the classical archetype of the alchemist.
And your definition of arcane magic is again too broad, even if it weren't contradicted by warlocks. There are far too few mechanical effects you could point to and say 'that's not appropriate for arcane users' under your definition. Again, there are several mechanically and thematically distinct potential power sources, each with easily enough conceptual room for half a dozen classes, that Arcane overlaps too heavily.
Now, it's too late to fix Arcane (this edition), but I still don't want to see the bloat from Arcane push good ideas like Shadow out of the picture.
Again, warlocks derive their power from a pact with a living or philosophical entity, and not from the entity itself. The idea stems from the concept of a magical contract (see The Little Mermaid for an example), and the point is that the contract itself is magical. It binds and grants the warlock power based on the deal made.
As for chaos magic, it is originally based on the wild magic of Forgotten Realms fame, where when the weave was uncontrolled, arcane magic did the same. The idea originally was that the very nature of magic at the time was thrown into chaos, so magic used would be chaotic.
Fast forward to now, and the new explanation is that wildmagic pulls from the elemental chaos... a plane where chaos is a literal and fundamental component of everything. Waterfalls may magically turn into lava mid-fall, a vibrant forest can sit on desert sand, and the elements are clashing in a tempestuous ever-moving realm. While pulling magic from the predictable material plane should produce predictable results, one shouldn't expect the same when pulling your magic from a place that is actually labeled with the word "chaos".
As for warlords, remember that they aren't supposedly using any real magic. Martial characters use their brains and brawn to do herculean feats without the need for magic. It's badass normal in D&D form.
I'm just glad that I'll be able to kill minions with a single kick/punch/bite and go up against solo monsters unarmed. Because no matter where they get their powers from, the very concept of a monk is incredibly badass.
CHOP!
Yes.. Yes they can.
Except you can get a lost sword back. No DM is going to sit there and have your hands cut off.
No DM is going to sit there and have your hands cut off.
You underestimate how many horrible DMs there are out there...
Except you can get a lost sword back. No DM is going to sit there and have your hands cut off.
Also, we forget that arm-chopping will affect monks equally to how it will affect any other character class... except maybe divine classes, who don't have to hold their implements.
Well I don't dislike the idea of monks being Psionic, it does kind of lessen the stream of potential classes. I guess certain archtypes will be left up to flavoring and really, thats okay in some cases but not in all.
It's not like psionic doesn't come with its own cultural siginificants, so it was more of a "we will just go with this culture over that culture."
Why call it a monk at all then is now the new question? Might as well call it the psionic warrior, or make up some new name all together. Why try to put a martial discipline spin on it, when said martial discipline for the most part focuses on utilizing such terms as Ki or Chi or Qui, and so on.
When Ki in and of itself was the spiritual flow of ones self/energies, why label it as being the equivelant of what you call psionic? Which in and of itself is entirely mental and how that mental power can effect ones self as well as enviroment?
Again, I'm happy that they made a unarmed fighting class, but this is neither a good respectful way of doing it or a all in all bad way.
It might as well be called something other than monk because in and of the monk tradition, the key recognizing factor of it has now been changed only to suit a demographic that would have utilized it regardless of what its origin or power sources implied. In other words "Cop Out!"
Psionic monks have existed since the Wizardry series of the 80's, if not earlier.
I'm surprised enough of them exist to have a group nickname.
Sorry, but that's a really stupid thing to say.
Once more, stupid, stupid arguments on the boards kills something good.
Stay classy, boards.
Rest in Peace, Ki Power Source, Golden Wyvern school.
Yeah, Ki could have been really cool. If they made the Samurai a warrior who draws power from the souls of his ancestors? That's not just an Asian concept, that has broad resonance.
I think their biggest problem was that they first decided that the Asian Elemental Wizards had to be in Ki, and then they found that Asian Elemental Wizards was untenable, and then they lost interest in the Ki power source. A Ki leader (Sohei?) could have been a Warlord to the monk's Fighter, instead of trying to be an Asian Elemental Wizard.
I confess I'm at a loss for a Ki Controller, without going in the direction of Asian Elemental Wizard. But that's okay. Martial doesn't need a Controller, and Ki doesn't need Elemental Wizards.
Now if we could just convince people that Rogues and Ninjas are the same damn thing already.
When the rogue class can disappear in a cloud of darkness, when they can move faster than the human eye can notice (teleport), when they can walk up walls and across water, when they can flit between shadows and become the night, then we can talk.
The rogue is okay for historical, realistic ninjae. But we're playing a fantasy game here.
I'm surprised enough of them exist to have a group nickname.
Low blow, man. Firefly is probably Joss' best series, and Dollhouse is right behind it. Buffy was great, too. Never got into Angel, honestly. Doesn't help that TV execs keep killing his series.
off topic power source discussion
Yes, and divine characters derive their power from a plane, the Astral Sea, through an investiture process not at all unlike the pact you are describing.
If you're pulling magic from anywhere, accessing it through any fashion, and using it to create any effect, then what you are describing is far too generalized for a single power source. There are dozens upon dozens of classes that fit perfectly well into the arcane power source, because it's boundries are far too wide and far too poorly defined. Elemental, Shadow, and Psionic are perfectly viable power sources, and if arcane can eat them all and then some then arcane is simply too broad.
I'm not even disagreeing with your description of 'arcane' magic. I'm just saying that the description you're using is so broad that several perfectly reasonable power sources can fall within it. Just as the arcana skill applies to magical knowledge of several different kinds, so should the concept of 'arcane magic' be an overarching term that encompases several power sources, not a power source in and of itself.
Much Stuff.
Yes, and divine characters derive their power from a plane, the Astral Sea, through an investiture process not at all unlike the pact you are describing.
If you're pulling magic from anywhere, accessing it through any fashion, and using it to create any effect, then what you are describing is far too generalized for a single power source. There are dozens upon dozens of classes that fit perfectly well into the arcane power source, because it's boundries are far too wide and far too poorly defined. Elemental, Shadow, and Psionic are perfectly viable power sources, and if arcane can eat them all and then some then arcane is simply too broad.
I'm not even disagreeing with your description of 'arcane' magic. I'm just saying that the description you're using is so broad that several perfectly reasonable power sources can fall within it. Just as the arcana skill applies to magical knowledge of several different kinds, so should the concept of 'arcane magic' be an overarching term that encompases several power sources, not a power source in and of itself.
Low blow, man. Firefly is probably Joss' best series, and Dollhouse is right behind it. Buffy was great, too. Never got into Angel, honestly. Doesn't help that TV execs keep killing his series.
While I'll say that Firefly is definitely the best of his series, I find it hard to say much great about the others. I find the same reasons to dislike Whedon's work as I do to dislike Tarantino's work... and I always feel weird that I seem to be the only person that dislikes both of them.
off topic power source discussion
Yes, and divine characters derive their power from a plane, the Astral Sea, through an investiture process not at all unlike the pact you are describing.
If you're pulling magic from anywhere, accessing it through any fashion, and using it to create any effect, then what you are describing is far too generalized for a single power source. There are dozens upon dozens of classes that fit perfectly well into the arcane power source, because it's boundries are far too wide and far too poorly defined. Elemental, Shadow, and Psionic are perfectly viable power sources, and if arcane can eat them all and then some then arcane is simply too broad.
I'm not even disagreeing with your description of 'arcane' magic. I'm just saying that the description you're using is so broad that several perfectly reasonable power sources can fall within it. Just as the arcana skill applies to magical knowledge of several different kinds, so should the concept of 'arcane magic' be an overarching term that encompases several power sources, not a power source in and of itself.
Psionic isn't just the "psychic" power source anymore. It's now the new age, third eye, karma/reincarnation, crystal healing, see beyond the illusions of the universe and seek the truth within because there's a universe inside of us all power source. The power source is capable of going more broadly Asian than specific terms like ki, chi, or others could have, but also still be more familiar to more western audiences given new age spiritualism.
Yeah...I sincerely hope that the psionic power source doesn't carry a lot of this flavor. I hate new age crystal magic crap. First person to mention the age of aquarius is getting shot in the face.
That said, I think there's plenty of good fluff that is much much better than crystalline, ectoplasmic, third eye, universal consciousness hippie garbage. So...I'm only slightly worried. Time will tell.
I'm surprised enough of them exist to have a group nickname.
It's better than most sci-fi over the last 30 years, and it can even appeal to the common folk...though I have mixed feelings about that. The real travesty lately was Battlestar Galactica. Good tech, good character development, good portrayal...but too dark, too dramatic. Totally an emo show.
Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles is even worse. The only people I like are Shirley Manson, the boy who plays John, and the T-1k's "daughter". And the upcoming new Stargate series promises to drop things down another notch. What is it with the appeal of all this emo melodrama lately?
It's better than most sci-fi over the last 30 years, and it can even appeal to the common folk...though I have mixed feelings about that. The real travesty lately was Battlestar Galactica. Good tech, good character development, good portrayal...but too dark, too dramatic. Totally an emo show.
Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles is even worse. The only people I like are Shirley Manson, the boy who plays John, and the T-1k's "daughter". And the upcoming new Stargate series promises to drop things down another notch. What is it with the appeal of all this emo melodrama lately?
Anyone else hate how completely overused the term emo is?
Anyone else hate how completely overused the term emo is?
Emo is the new homosexual epithet, so it has lost any value as a label... don't be surprised if guys are calling each other "emo" in shower rooms, and a movie comes out with a running gag line that starts with "you wanna know how I know you're emo?"
Emo is the new homosexual epithet, so it has lost any value as a label... don't be surprised if guys are calling each other "emo" in shower rooms, and a movie comes out with a running gag line that starts with "you wanna know how I know you're emo?"
Dark, and excessively emotional. That's all it means to me. I rarely label people as emo though...only shows, games, and books. Some people fall low enough to earn that label though.
But, for the sake of not overusing it in the future, I'll go to "personal horror and melodrama" even though it's not as catchy.
For now Ki is slated to join alignment.
But here's the thing...this playtest is just that...a playtest. It isn't set in stone.
You want Ki to stay around...then try to pick out an interesting idea of why it should stick. What would be Ki's 'schtick' so to say. I've asked this in another thread and got one reply...with another one saying the reply puts monk in a class of its own.
So what sets Ki apart from martial and psionic. Not just flavorwise but..preferably mechanic wise..what would all Ki characters have in common?
Incarnum, IMO. It's a perfect fit for it.
Filing the serial numbers off of Incarnum and calling it Ki is tantamount to ditching Ki anyway. Frankly, Ki has no traction as anything beside the kung-fu power source, and any time the devs spend trying to convince everyone otherwise is time they're not spending doing something useful.
You underestimate how many horrible DMs there are out there...
Or...the Hand of Vecna gets attached to one of the monk's hands.
Using psionic for the monk class is an evolution that can be good. As long as the class maintains that supernatural martial arts style where warriors run up walls and land on the tip of the opponent's sword and not teleporting and controlling peoples' minds.
Ki is like...just the power of you. Your own personal powers and abilities, your own energy. Basically the raw untapped potential of the human form..to do things well beyond superhuman.
This goes from displays of martial arts that no person should ever be able to do..period..like running across the top of water..running up walls and the like. Or somehow manipulating the energy in other ways. As cheesy as it is.....dragonballz is prob one of the famous examples of Ki...going well overboard (seriously those are like...close to level 30 characters for some of em). Bleach for something more modern could probably count as well.
For something more western style. Most mutants probably would count as using Ki of one sort or another.
But the question of theme..is more than just...what flavor do they have in common. What will be Ki's specialty. that is what I'm getting that..I figure they are trying to not make another Arcane....a power that just catches anything that dosn't fit elsewhere.
Martial is very controller heavy for instance. Divine has that whole channel divinity feature, the reliance on having at least a slight fluff connection to the church (can make some roleplay opportunities happen), heavy reliance on the radient weapon type, and most of the classes have at least a slight ability to heal other players. Primal has the whole alter the user or the landscape for an extended length of time thing going on. As I said..Arcane right now is the odd one out...as it is pretty much a catch all for anything that dosn't fit and seems magical. Though I have noticed quite a bit of forced movement related effects and ranged attacks.
So..what would be Ki's specialty...what would be Ki's main game mechanic? Not all classes would need to do this..but those classes would need to be the exception to the rule.
I don't think Arcane is too broad, but in the rush to satisfy everyone it's become bloated beyond what it probably should have been.
This. People wanted Wizards that could cast magic missile, and summon beasts, and raise undead, and cast illusions, and fly, and use elemental powers, and pretty much everything else under the sun.
Yeah...I sincerely hope that the psionic power source doesn't carry a lot of this flavor. I hate new age crystal magic crap. First person to mention the age of aquarius is getting shot in the face.
That said, I think there's plenty of good fluff that is much much better than crystalline, ectoplasmic, third eye, universal consciousness hippie garbage. So...I'm only slightly worried. Time will tell.
Don't you mean carry OVER, because Psionics has always been crystalline, ectoplasmic, third eye, universal consciousness- not too much unlike most popular representations of Ki and other forms of energy from eastern philosophies. D&D has just generally avoided the hippie (mostly the peace and harmony and tie dye) stuff in favor of people in exotic looking clothing using it to kick ass.
I think Eberron's continent of Sarlonna is a very good example of where they're taking the Psionic power source. The continent take a great many influences from India/China and melds them with Psionics to create a land that, while not obviously Asian, still evokes images of a far off oriental land of pulp tradition.
I am incredibly unimpressed with the monk's damage. 5[W] + dex on a level 29 daily? Against one target? Weak and lame.
Also, there is a complete and total lack of powers that give you multiple attacks against a single target. This is unacceptable. It's a monk! It's supposed to be a flurry of knees, kicks, punches, elbows, head butts, etc. The most damaging classes in the game atm are the Ranger and the Barbarian, and they both wear that crown because of their multi-attacks. All these close burst powers the monk gets are... cute, but they accomplish the opposite of what I was looking for in a 4th Ed monk.
All of this is assuming that the STR variant of the monk doesn't fill my need for a single target destroyer. I'm very much looking forward to that variant, because this one has left a bitter taste of disappointment in my mouth.
Mobility does not equal a striker. Striking equals a striker, and right now it looks like I'm better off with a spiked-gauntlet, TWF ranger. Yay...
I'm guessing this means I'm out of luck if I want a Soulknife character. Or worse they will fold it in with the Psychic Warrior or some such.
I could live with soulknife and psywarrior getting folded together for a psionic defender. Psywars are so bland and generic that the soulknife flavor would overwhelm them anyway. And Psychic Warrior is such a stupid name that it'll either be Soulknife or something new.
So, I'm almost kinda hoping it eats the psywar and becomes the psionic defender...just so it can survive. It was one of the few unique and worthwhile classes...unlike those wild mage ripoffs, wilders. Not that psions were much better...being basically tweaked ripoffs of specialist wizards.
I actually expect the Ardent will probably get folded into Soulknife/Psywar also...it was a little divine-heavy, but there was plenty in its nature to lend to a unique and fun psionic defender. Lurk I'm afraid will go the way of the dodo if Monk is already the psionic striker.
Ki is like...just the power of you. Your own personal powers and abilities, your own energy. Basically the raw untapped potential of the human form..to do things well beyond superhuman.
Hmm - that reminds me of something. Psionics, I think...
To be honest, I just see the "Power Sources" as:
Martial - the power of training (the 'outer self' or 'physical self')
Psionic - the power of you (the 'inner self' or 'spiritual self')
Primal - the power of nature (the 'inner' or 'spiritual' world)
Arcane - the power of the world (the 'outer' or 'physical' world)
Divine - the power of belief (the 'collective inner selves'?)
Elemental and Shadow don't really make too much sense, to me - they are specific planes rather than aspects of an existence that includes those planes. Some sort of manifestation of 'collective outer selves' (the 'power of the masses') might make sense though. A "Regency" power source, maybe? :D
Or...the Hand of Vecna gets attached to one of the monk's hands.
horrors should befall the GM who tries to introduce the head of vecna to an unsuspecting...
Hmm - that reminds me of something. Psionics, I think...
To be honest, I just see the "Power Sources" as:
Martial - the power of training (the 'outer self' or 'physical self')
Psionic - the power of you (the 'inner self' or 'spiritual self')
Primal - the power of nature (the 'inner' or 'spiritual' world)
Arcane - the power of the world (the 'outer' or 'physical' world)
Divine - the power of belief (the 'collective inner selves'?)
Elemental and Shadow don't really make too much sense, to me - they are specific planes rather than aspects of an existence that includes those planes. Some sort of manifestation of 'collective outer selves' (the 'power of the masses') might make sense though. A "Regency" power source, maybe? :D
The Elemental Chaos has plenty of powerful entities that rival the Gods: The Primordials. It also has lots of powerful elemental creatures like Titans, Efreet, Slamanders, and Demons.
Likewise, the Shadowfell has its own host of entities, as well as the power of the plane itself (essentially negative energy). It makes Undead, for instance.
Arcane is the odd man out here. It takes power from the external world, but WHAT external world? The Feywild is supposed to be brimming with arcane energies, but only a minority of arcane powers and origins (including those that fit better with Shadow, Elemental, or Psionic) have all that much to do with the Feywild. The Feywild is also supposed to be related to the primal power source. What's the central theme? Is there one?
Arcane simply exists because it did in previous editions, and they weren't going to cut it out now.
Considering the magical unarmed attacks:
The way I see it, you are not realy enchanting your BODY (not your hands - you can use your whole body on a unarmed attack). The way I see it, you are LEARNING to use your body as a magic item would.
So, you are transforming the magic used to enchant your items into psionic "magic" (like they call it) and harvesting it in your body.
In order to GIVE "magic unarmed weapons" to my players, I intend on giving them scrolls so that they can learn how to channel their inner energies in different ways (replacing the previous enchantment).
I am also considering allowing two "magic unarmed weapon" at once. Besides that, the player may learn more but will need to spend 2 minor actions (or one with quick draw) to change one of the two (basicaly, it's like wielding a dagger in each hand and needing to store one and draw another to have the 3rd enchantment).
This however poses the issue that the monk will not be loosing anything by using his body as a weapon, so I will probably decide on having only ONE "enchantment" at a time (loosing versatility unless it also uses another weapon).
1 - the player NEEDS the scrolls to use the "techniques" (magic enhancements) or he will forget them after an extended rest (this allows for the monk to be stripped from magic weapons (even if not from regular weapons).
- To recover the "techniques" a short rest will sufice.
2 - I forgot...
(I know there were more...)Well I don't dislike the idea of monks being Psionic, it does kind of lessen the stream of potential classes. I guess certain archtypes will be left up to flavoring and really, thats okay in some cases but not in all.
It's not like psionic doesn't come with its own cultural siginificants, so it was more of a "we will just go with this culture over that culture."
Why call it a monk at all then is now the new question? Might as well call it the psionic warrior, or make up some new name all together. Why try to put a martial discipline spin on it, when said martial discipline for the most part focuses on utilizing such terms as Ki or Chi or Qui, and so on.
When Ki in and of itself was the spiritual flow of ones self/energies, why label it as being the equivelant of what you call psionic? Which in and of itself is entirely mental and how that mental power can effect ones self as well as enviroment?
Again, I'm happy that they made a unarmed fighting class, but this is neither a good respectful way of doing it or a all in all bad way.
It might as well be called something other than monk because in and of the monk tradition, the key recognizing factor of it has now been changed only to suit a demographic that would have utilized it regardless of what its origin or power sources implied. In other words "Cop Out!"
On the one hand, I am glad that they undid the Ki power source. Good decision to scrap it, because ONLY Monk would have fit there.
However, putting Monk into Psionics? I call that a bad choice. Monk is the martial arts guy. The master of unarmed combat, honing his skills so that he does not need weapons or armor. That is always what I saw Monk as: physical perfection. Ki energy was always, to me, an extension of that physical perfection. Whereas Fighter is a master of weapons, Monk is a master of the fist. I will continue to see Monk as Martial, I don't care what WotC says. The power source of your character means diddly-squat.
In the end, though, this will mean one less "new" class under the Psionics class. One less section of shiny imagery. THAT bothers me. Muchly.
The Elemental Chaos has plenty of powerful entities that rival the Gods: The Primordials. It also has lots of powerful elemental creatures like Titans, Efreet, Slamanders, and Demons.
Likewise, the Shadowfell has its own host of entities, as well as the power of the plane itself (essentially negative energy). It makes Undead, for instance.
Arcane is the odd man out here. It takes power from the external world, but WHAT external world? The Feywild is supposed to be brimming with arcane energies, but only a minority of arcane powers and origins (including those that fit better with Shadow, Elemental, or Psionic) have all that much to do with the Feywild. The Feywild is also supposed to be related to the primal power source. What's the central theme? Is there one?
Arcane simply exists because it did in previous editions, and they weren't going to cut it out now.
Arcane magic works on old-world concepts that magic is a fundamental force of the universe. Unlike divine and primal magic, where you petition other beings for magic, or psionic, where you pull your powers from your inner self, arcane casters draw their magic straight from the world. The idea is that arcane magic is a force of the world, like gravity, and that arcane casters are those who can use it... whether it's because they have studied how to do so (wizards, artificers and swordmages), contractually bound themselves to another being with it (warlocks), or just plain have a natural talent for using it (sorcerers).
Hmm - that reminds me of something. Psionics, I think...
To be honest, I just see the "Power Sources" as:
Martial - the power of training (the 'outer self' or 'physical self')
Psionic - the power of you (the 'inner self' or 'spiritual self')
Primal - the power of nature (the 'inner' or 'spiritual' world)
Arcane - the power of the world (the 'outer' or 'physical' world)
Divine - the power of belief (the 'collective inner selves'?)
Elemental and Shadow don't really make too much sense, to me - they are specific planes rather than aspects of an existence that includes those planes. Some sort of manifestation of 'collective outer selves' (the 'power of the masses') might make sense though. A "Regency" power source, maybe? :D
Hmm...umm...thats not Psionics as I know it. Psionics as I know it is the raw untapped potential of the mind...and thats it. Psionics is mind over matter. Ki..is pretty much..well..body over matter :P
I'm one more step closer to running a TF:A based 4E game :D.
I'm looking forwared to PH3 and another class you introduce in playtest (please!).I just realised something, I can easily make a Warforged monk character and base it off of this guy seeing how their Psionic now.
You could have done that anyways. From what I can tell from the article, the flavor and concept of Monks has not changed a single bit. All that happened was that the power source given to it accentuates the mental discipline aspect.
Really, what was the conceptual difference between Monks and Psychic Warriors back in 3.5? Other than armor usage, nothing.
Even worse, does it mean that a monk that prefers unarmed combat, as opposed to staff, dagger, et. al., will be forced to spend his monetary treasure to keep up his enhancement bonuses? Or can you find, say, a mummifed monkey paw or something?
Hmm, when I read this I can't help but wonder - do you ppl have you magic items always stacked neatly in treasure chests/looted from enemies? Why not use your imagination?
In the game I DM now a swordmage killed a minor elemental being of lightning - voila, his sword absorbed it's energy and now he has a Lightning +2 bastard sword which is much more fun than if he'd found it in the treasure trove.
Same thing could be applied to monk. You can also give him some ancient texts describing some forbiden fighting technics of Lifedrinker Fists.
I guess there could be lots of other variants.
In the game I DM now a swordmage killed a minor elemental being of lightning - voila, his sword absorbed it's energy and now he has a Lightning +2 bastard sword which is much more fun than if he'd found it in the treasure trove.
Same thing could be applied to monk.
Hells yeah! Acquiring your enemy's abilities, Mega Man style! "You get +2 Rock Cutter!"
As for the power source when discussing the monk back before the PH1 hit shelves and the sidebar mentioned ki I stated that I felt the monk would be psionic. I only figured it'd be ki once that power source was stated in the PH1. I'm glad to see the monk be psionic and the ki source to be dropped.
Ki as a concept isn't a bad thing but it carries with it heavy connotations of Asian themes and the only way it could be filled out is making a bunch of Asian named/themed classes for it.
Monks work great as psionic and fit non-Asian monks as well who aren't all martial arts masters but do deal with contemplation and honing of the mind and its ability to control the body and the world.
Ninja would work better as a rogue PP or a MC class like gladiator and assassin. The same goes for Samurai and the dev article about the monk development shows the R&D team is leaning in the same direction and even painted the samurai as going well for paladins.
Wu Jen, Shugenja, Sohei, and others also fit better with other power sources or as an MC class or PP for other classes. We're seeing the MC classes emerge as sort of 4e's PrCs (along with PPs). These work well when a class isn't distinctive enough to stand apart and be a full class but gives interesting flavor/mehanics to a base class.
I was very excited about the monk playtest, and while I like the Full Discipline things, I have some complaints.
I am incredibly unimpressed with the monk's damage. 5[W] + dex on a level 29 daily? Against one target? Weak and lame.
Also, there is a complete and total lack of powers that give you multiple attacks against a single target. This is unacceptable. It's a monk! It's supposed to be a flurry of knees, kicks, punches, elbows, head butts, etc. The most damaging classes in the game atm are the Ranger and the Barbarian, and they both wear that crown because of their multi-attacks. All these close burst powers the monk gets are... cute, but they accomplish the opposite of what I was looking for in a 4th Ed monk.
All of this is assuming that the STR variant of the monk doesn't fill my need for a single target destroyer. I'm very much looking forward to that variant, because this one has left a bitter taste of disappointment in my mouth.
If all you wanted was a 'flurry of blows' single target destroyer, seriously, go play a ranger. I enjoy the class doing something that isn't just a ranger with fists. And you can't be serious about that level 29 power. It's actually real good. 5[w] + dex with a guaranteed 10 extra damage with a 50/50 chance of plus 25 damage. Not to mention all those level 21+ powers add tons of wisdom damage and crowd manipulation to every strike.
I think it's one of the most unique classes in the history of this game.
That level 7 encounter, now, that's a little lackluster.
What happens when you use the Enchant Magic Item ritual to enchant the monk unarmed strike with the following:
* Cloaked weapon (Does the monk's body turn invisible at the end of each (...) rest)?
* Flaming weapon (The flavor text indicates the weapon is wreathed in flame... Does the entire monk body constantly look like it is on fire?)
* Adamantine weapon (Does the monk look like he is made of adamantine?)
Thank you...
The reply was:
John,
Unfortunately, there are no answers in the rules to the questions you've asked. It's going to be up to your Dungeon Master to decide how those effects will look.
Thanks, and Good Gaming!
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Just thought I'd pass that along...
I asked customer service the following:The reply was:Just thought I'd pass that along...
You forgot the "dynamic" and "paired" enchantments which are actualy the ones I think are "cuter"... :P
Don't forget that an unarmed Monk always has two weapons. Both fists. I forsee myself taking advantage of the Two-Weapon Fighting Feats.
An unarmed monk actualy has more than two "weapons", but I don't think it works like that...
(I can see at least 9 "weapons" as you put it - hands, feet, elbows, knees, head. And this is discounting the less obvious "weapons" of the human body)
In fact the ONE weapon is the body itself.
(http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=18556674&postcount=97 and
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=18556730&postcount=98)
No, when you use an encounter power, you gain access to both of those techniques for that round. You can use both the movement and the attack option or one or the other.
I don't think this is correct.
From the monk playtest article:
For example, you can use the
techniques of an at-will full discipline power as
many times during a round as you like, provided
you have enough of the required actions, but
you can use the techniques of an encounter full
discipline power once during a round.
Encounter powers can only be used once per encounter. This means that a full discipline encounter power can only be used for one of its techniques during an encounter. The reason it is a full discipline is because it cannot be used in the same round as another full discipline power. To quote the Design and Development article:
The rules initially allowed a character to use the techniques of a full discipline as long as sufficient actions remained. But that allowed a character who used an encounter-level full discipline and spent an action point to get two encounter-level attacks from one use of a power.
Ultimately, we decided to limit the techniques of encounter-level disciplines to once per encounter, but we also allow the monk to switch full disciplines when he uses an action point.
So you could, with an action point, use Drunken Monkey and Dancing Cobra in one round, but you would still only be able to use one of Drunken Monkey's techniques and only once during the round.
This isn't overbalanced considering the move techniques are fairly minor alterations or extensions of a standard move and the attacks tend to do slightly less damage than other classes since they get the move 'buff' as well with the power.
I'm going to have to go with the view that with an encounter FD can be used for both its move and its attack, but each only once per round. This means you can't use the attack twice if you get a second standard action, nor the move twice if you get a second move action (through another character's powers, an item, etc.) but you can still use the move technique as your move action and the attack technique as your standard action.
This isn't overbalanced considering the move techniques are fairly minor alterations or extensions of a standard move and the attacks tend to do slightly less damage than other classes since they get the move 'buff' as well with the power.
From the wording of what I've quoted from the playtest and design articles, I can see your interpretation. I think this is going to require further clarification from Wizards. However, generally speaking, encounter powers are one action. No other class can use the same encounter power twice in the same encounter, let alone in the same round. The problem is, I think, that full discipline powers are really two separate powers wrapped together under one heading, and as of yet the wording concerning full discipline power usage is ambiguous.
I don't think this is correct.
From the monk playtest article:
For example, you can use the
techniques of an at-will full discipline power as
many times during a round as you like, provided
you have enough of the required actions, but
you can use the techniques of an encounter full
discipline power once during a round.
And this counters what I said because...?
It's saying that you can you only use an encounter power's attack or movement technique once each during a round.
Encounter powers can only be used once per encounter. This means that a full discipline encounter power can only be used for one of its techniques during an encounter.
No, this is incorrect. From the article:
"A full discipline power gives you two or
more actions to choose from, usually an attack
technique and a movement technique...
You can use the
techniques of a full discipline power in whatever
order you like, and you can choose to use one of
the techniques and not the other during a par-
ticular round."
When you use the power, you gain access to both techniques and can decide which one to use or use both in the same round. It's just that you can only use each technique once.