Is this not one of the very sorts of thing 4e is trying so hard to avoid? The fact that a character can get by without need of any sort to consciously compensate for their lack of up-to-date equipment relative to the rest of the party? Wasn't that one of the things that made Monks and Soulknives so dangerous? That they could wade through anti-magic fields or treasureless dungeons and be as practically unaffected by the fact?
Frankly...I don't have any idea how they're going to go about it...and I imagine the Ki power source hasn't been released in earlier books simply because it's giving them such a headache to sort it out, balance-wise. I don't think the soulknife will make it at all...and certainly NOT before the monk.
It's understandable. How do you take a class that IS its own weapon, and arrange it so they can be disarmed like anyone else? How do you have them aquire magical weaponry without simply enchanting their own hands, or such? Do you give them a piece of equipment anyway, like an implement of sorts? Why give that to Monks? Bruce Lee never used any stinking gloves or brass knuckles when he beat someone down bare handed...right?
What about Soulknives? They could conceivably use an implement, but wouldn't that make them just a tad too much like Jedi? Without that though, how would you enchant their mind blades? Give them a class feature for it? Then what would they need with the ritual? A ritual EVERYONE else MUST have access to in some way or other to get magic weapons (perhaps not directly, but someone had to use it sometime to make the weapons they find in treasure piles or buy in shops)? Do you enchant their mind blades themselves? Have them manifest it during the ritual and for whatever strange and inexplicable reason the magic of the ritual imprints itself on their own psyche through the blade, so that everytime they manifest the blade henceforth, it possesses that enchantment?
And that's just their weaponry capabilities. That's to say nothing of things like the Monk's unarmored AC. Perhaps they will receive class feature powers that can be activated to allow them to use Reflex defense in place of AC, or that instead will boost their AC briefly under particular circumstances?
What do you all think? What do you think will be the major issues of classes like those of Monk and Soulknife, and why, and what would you do about them in 4e?
Also, I never heard of monks or soulknives being considered overpowered, instead I've understood that most considered them extremely weak. The facts that they can't be disarmed or rendered useless by anti-magic zones doesn't matter in this edition. There is no disarm tactic or anti-magic effect.
I would imagine that the soulknife will no longer retain the ability to change its weapon's enchantment. The weapon's powers will likely be granted by the implement, with different abilities coming from class powers. The only things that have to remain throughout the editions is the spirit and flavor of the class, not the rules. A monk's amazing ability to dodge attacks might come from adding their wisdom bonuses to AC, or may just be a flat bonus. Either way, I expect it to be decided and tuned with an eye to balance. I trust the designers. The class balance of 4e so far has been amazingly good.
I think your problems arise from the idea that the mechanics of 3e have to be carried into the new edition. They don't. Spellcasters didn't need magical weapons to increase the chance their spells would hit, but now they do. I could easily believe that monks and soulknives will use their own "implements."
Also, I never heard of monks or soulknives being considered overpowered, instead I've understood that most considered them extremely weak. The facts that they can't be disarmed or rendered useless by anti-magic zones doesn't matter in this edition. There is no disarm tactic or anti-magic effect.
I would imagine that the soulknife will no longer retain the ability to change its weapon's enchantment. The weapon's powers will likely be granted by the implement, with different abilities coming from class powers. The only things that have to remain throughout the editions is the spirit and flavor of the class, not the rules. A monk's amazing ability to dodge attacks might come from adding their wisdom bonuses to AC, or may just be a flat bonus. Either way, I expect it to be decided and tuned with an eye to balance. I trust the designers. The class balance of 4e so far has been amazingly good.
Not really at all what I meant myself, but it's on topic, and all views are welcome.
Monks are unarmed combatants. That IS the flavor of the class. It's not a sacred cow...it's what makes a monk, a monk. If they'd called the Cleric a Monk instead, it'd be ok...because then you'd have the brown (or red, or black, or white, or whatever color) -robe-wearing monastic member of the clergy. But if they're going to stick with the far eastern idea of of monks, they'll have to be experts at unarmed combat...or they'll just be an asian-flavored version of the Cleric.
The same is true of Soulknives to an extent. You can change almost anything about them except one thing...the existence of their mindblade. You can change the mechanics quite a bit to fit the edition, yes...but fundamentally, it's a semi-solid blade of psychic force. To make it anything else, or to take it away, makes it not a soulknife anymore. It'd be like a pepperoni pizza with no sauce, tofu pepperoni, and non-dairy cheese (i.e. No Flavor, or bad flavor...but either way, just WRONG).
Mostly...I'm just not sure what kinds of implements would be reasonable for any such class...whether it be Monk or Soulknife. I'm just interested in seeing what others think such implements might end up being, or whether there would or should be any at all.
How about this. What do you all feel is the fundamental flavor of each such class? What 4e-style changes to such classes do you feel could be made to them while preserving the class' flavors?
Monks are unarmed combatants. That IS the flavor of the class.
True, but unarmed doesn't mean doesn't have a magic item. If your 3.5 Monk didn't have Magic Fang or an amulet for natural attack boosts he sucked (more), so it's not like the class wasn't item dependent. They'll just give the monk an implement to allow them to not suck with their fists, except this time it'll be balanced price wise.
Mostly...I'm just not sure what kinds of implements would be reasonable for any such class...whether it be Monk or Soulknife. I'm just interested in seeing what others think such implements might end up being, or whether there would or should be any at all.
For Monks? Belts, gi, gloves and/or monk weapons probably. I don't expect to see soulknives again, but assuming they are making a comeback they'll need focus crystals or other psi implements to make a better focused blade.
Switching out different styles shows changes in posture, and method of attacking. When you get more magical it shows that style advancing and you discovering/learning within that style special manoeuvres, etc. Ki is supernatural afterall.
You know if this was open to more classes to, it could help in making proficient unarmed PCs for various classes. Shrugging the magic-weapons off on Ki would need to be refluffed differently, but then you could get into saying special items worn on the hands or some such.
Use power X and it activates stance Y
this way by activating your daily power "Monkey snatches the Peach" you go into Monkey Style Stance which gives you [bonus] until you willingly stop the stance or use another stance power. i can see lots of daily utility powers being their own stance.
this way the monk could swap through different "combat styles" on the fly.
Psi classes could use some... crystal... thing. Because psionics had that coming out it's butt before.
As for Psionics, I would like to see something similar to what I talked about with Monks work for Psionics as well. In that it isn't something actually material. In the Psionic case it would be something that they mentally focus on to allow them to better produce their psionic abilities. So could be a memory, a person, a thing, etc. You could have for instance a memory that is full of rage or anger, that gives a bigger bonus to damage.
Ki users could wear fetishes that help them focus thier ki, using them like holy symbols.
Psi classes could use some... crystal... thing. Because psionics had that coming out it's butt before.
Yeh, having a Psi focus crystal would work.
I'm expecting that in their basic form, monk powers will look a lot like Druid powers. That is, they will be melee attacks that have a set damage instead of [W]. They will probably have some sort of focus to increase their attacks and damage, though what form it will take I don't know. Alternately, there will probably be an option to use a weapon itself as an implement, for those who like jian, kamas, and the like, but even if using a weapon, the powers themselves will not use [W].
We'll find out about the monk in a month or two when we get the May preview.
I'm expecting that in their basic form, monk powers will look a lot like Druid powers. That is, they will be melee attacks that have a set damage instead of [W]. They will probably have some sort of focus to increase their attacks and damage, though what form it will take I don't know. Alternately, there will probably be an option to use a weapon itself as an implement, for those who like jian, kamas, and the like, but even if using a weapon, the powers themselves will not use [W].
I don't know. At first, I saw the comparison to Druids for implement melee attacks, but the fact that many people will expect to use monk weapons sort of makes the set damage (3d8 as opposed to 3[W]) not make sense. It would be simpler to give the monk a class feature that changes their unarmed damage die to d8.
I imagine you are probably right oxybe, but you know random brainstorming ideas.
As for Psionics, I would like to see something similar to what I talked about with Monks work for Psionics as well. In that it isn't something actually material. In the Psionic case it would be something that they mentally focus on to allow them to better produce their psionic abilities. So could be a memory, a person, a thing, etc. You could have for instance a memory that is full of rage or anger, that gives a bigger bonus to damage.
Maybe as some kind of class feature, but there's no way to buy, sell, or find emotions in treasure hordes, so they couldn't be an implement of any sort.
Monks would probably get access to some equivalent of Improved Unarmed Strike, and maybe different class features or stances that allow their unarmed strikes to have different weapon properties and maybe even base damage values. Magically enhancing unarmed strikes can easily be done via implements (monk belts, gloves, fetishes, ect), or by allowing the monk to imbue enhancement directly into his natural weapon. With the latter, it would be a matter to add a class feature that duplicates the Enchant/Disenchant/Transfer rituals, but only for the monk's unarmed strike.
Soulknives are just as easy. Either they'll use implements (crystal hilts [which can't be strictly jedi-like if Kuwabarauses them], third eyes, psy crystals, ect), or enchant their soul knives directly (see above).
Monk AC is basically already covered in 4e, as any lightly armored character has competitive AC. If they want to keep monks out of leather and hide, they can simply do what I normally suggest with 3eMonk=>4eRogue conversions and grant monks +2 AC only when wearing cloth or no armor, and bam, instant leather armor equivalent. Any additional dodgyness that they might want to give the monk will probably come from either mobility powers, defensive stances, or from class features and class feats.
And the disarming issue is all but moot. Disarming and sundering are no longer basic maneuvers available to all creature, and there are very few effects that can disarm.
And that's without trying hard.
Really, I'm not seeing how implementing the basic mechanics of these classes in 4e would be difficult at all. The hardest part, IMO, would be making the class unique and distinct from other classes of the same role, but that's par of the course with class creation. Personally, I'm hoping that the official monk will have alot of Setting Sun-type powers for positioning foes by flinging them across the battlefield.
Maybe as some kind of class feature, but there's no way to buy, sell, or find emotions in treasure hordes, so they couldn't be an implement of any sort.
Well it wouldn't work exactly like a implement. But it would serve a similar purpose you know. Like a replacement for a implement or weapon.
So, I could see it as you have the basic set. But perhaps later on, a Psionic could learn how to tap into/focus other aspects. Thus gaining the bonuses you would gain from implement/weapons at later stages.
The core concepts of the monk and soulknife would actually be very easy to implement in 4e.
Monks would probably get access to some equivalent of Improved Unarmed Strike, and maybe different class features or stances that allow their unarmed strikes to have different weapon properties and maybe even base damage values. Magically enhancing unarmed strikes can easily be done via implements (monk belts, gloves, fetishes, ect), or by allowing the monk to imbue enhancement directly into his natural weapon. With the latter, it would be a matter to add a class feature that duplicates the Enchant/Disenchant/Transfer rituals, but only for the monk's unarmed strike.
Soulknives are just as easy. Either they'll use implements (crystal hilts [which can't be strictly jedi-like if Kuwabarauses them], third eyes, psy crystals, ect), or enchant their soul knives directly (see above).
Monk AC is basically already covered in 4e, as any lightly armored character has competitive AC. If they want to keep monks out of leather and hide, they can simply do what I normally suggest with 3eMonk=>4eRogue conversions and grant monks +2 AC only when wearing cloth or no armor, and bam, instant leather armor equivalent. Any additional dodgyness that they might want to give the monk will probably come from either mobility powers, defensive stances, or from class features and class feats.
And the disarming issue is all but moot. Disarming and sundering are no longer basic maneuvers available to all creature, and there are very few effects that can disarm.
And that's without trying hard.
Really, I'm not seeing how implementing the basic mechanics of these classes in 4e would be difficult at all. The hardest part, IMO, would be making the class unique and distinct from other classes of the same role, but that's par of the course with class creation. Personally, I'm hoping that the official monk will have alot of Setting Sun-type powers for positioning foes by flinging them across the battlefield.
The disarming was a bad example, I'll admit that. But it's pretty obvious they're trying to keep everyone in the party buying roughly the same overall monetary value of equipment, so there aren't any characters who inherently spend much less than everyone else because they just don't need it.
I guess I'm thinking too "real world" when it comes to unarmed combat. The idea of a non-magical belt somehow improving one's ability to throw a punch or kick just stretches my suspension of disbelief to near the breaking point. After all, what in the world does a common cloth belt have to do with a punch? But...I'm sure most of you are right in the sense that monk items are likely to be along the lines of belts and other such staples of the martial artist.
I wouldn't mind seeing plenty of Setting Sun make it into monk...and plenty of a more unarmed-flavored Diamond Mind also.
Edit: If Wilders make it into Psionics in the end, and Soulknives don't...I won't care HOW good Eberron is, that'll be my break point on 4e. Wilders are a crappy excuse for someone to play a Wild Mage with Psionics, and nothing more...and I don't like Wild Mages either.
I guess I'm thinking too "real world" when it comes to unarmed combat. The idea of a non-magical belt somehow improving one's ability to throw a punch or kick just stretches my suspension of disbelief to near the breaking point. After all, what in the world does a common cloth belt have to do with a punch? But...I'm sure most of you are right in the sense that monk items are likely to be along the lines of belts and other such staples of the martial artist.
A common cloth belt doesn't have anything to do with a monks ability to throw punches or kicks. As an implement the monk can have a mundane one, the same as any warlock or cleric, but they don't need such to use any of their powers and unless it's magical its presence or absence makes no difference to their abilities.
A common cloth belt doesn't have anything to do with a monks ability to throw punches or kicks. As an implement the monk can have a mundane one, the same as any warlock or cleric, but they don't need such to use any of their powers and unless it's magical its presence or absence makes no difference to their abilities.
Correct...so I feel a little silly now.
Although, for future reference, Wizards actually do benefit from even mundane implements with their implement mastery...such as it is, anyway.
Maybe as some kind of class feature, but there's no way to buy, sell, or find emotions in treasure hordes, so they couldn't be an implement of any sort.
Actually, it could be. You could find things that look similar to your current fetish, or that remind you of X, and they would serve as fetishes.
What form their implement/s come in is anyone's guess... it could be a holy symbol, a sacred prayer book or scroll they keep on their person, something like that... probably not tattoos, since I imagine the 'tattooed monk' concept will simply be embodied in a single paragon path.
The real question for me is what role they are going to fill... leader and controller dont fit, and I think striker probably fits better than defender, but that's just my guess at this stage.
And yeah, soul-knifes or whatever will probably have some kind of psi-crystal implement thingy.
I fully expect monks to be like the current implement / weapon classes that exist such as cleric, paladin, avenger, swordmage, bard etc. in that they will have a roughly even split of implement powers for unarmed atacks that do fixed d8 or whatever damage that scales up with levels, and weapon attacks.
What form their implement/s come in is anyone's guess... it could be a holy symbol, a sacred prayer book or scroll they keep on their person, something like that... probably not tattoos, since I imagine the 'tattooed monk' concept will simply be embodied in a single paragon path.
The real question for me is what role they are going to fill... leader and controller dont fit, and I think striker probably fits better than defender, but that's just my guess at this stage.
And yeah, soul-knifes or whatever will probably have some kind of psi-crystal implement thingy.
I see monks as defenders more than strikers. For me I just can't see someone doing more damage with their fists than someone with a giant sword or axe, especially when many opponents are wearing armor. Maybe their shtick will be stopping movement by tripping their mark as they try to move away. I can also easily see the monk having a throw type power at-will similar to the fighter's Tide of Iron.
Not really at all what I meant myself, but it's on topic, and all views are welcome.
Monks are unarmed combatants. That IS the flavor of the class. It's not a sacred cow...it's what makes a monk, a monk. If they'd called the Cleric a Monk instead, it'd be ok...because then you'd have the brown (or red, or black, or white, or whatever color) -robe-wearing monastic member of the clergy. But if they're going to stick with the far eastern idea of of monks, they'll have to be experts at unarmed combat...or they'll just be an asian-flavored version of the Cleric.
The same is true of Soulknives to an extent. You can change almost anything about them except one thing...the existence of their mindblade. You can change the mechanics quite a bit to fit the edition, yes...but fundamentally, it's a semi-solid blade of psychic force. To make it anything else, or to take it away, makes it not a soulknife anymore. It'd be like a pepperoni pizza with no sauce, tofu pepperoni, and non-dairy cheese (i.e. No Flavor, or bad flavor...but either way, just WRONG).
Mostly...I'm just not sure what kinds of implements would be reasonable for any such class...whether it be Monk or Soulknife. I'm just interested in seeing what others think such implements might end up being, or whether there would or should be any at all.
How about this. What do you all feel is the fundamental flavor of each such class? What 4e-style changes to such classes do you feel could be made to them while preserving the class' flavors?
Let's see:
Monk implements possible: meditation beads, magical tattoos, martial arts belt (capable of being worn alongside a waist slot item), ki focus (analogous to holy symbols for the ki power source), the ability to use the properties of a magical weapon on your body without actually using the weapon.
Psionic implements possible: cognizance crystals, dorjes, power stones, psicrowns, psionic tattoos. I see it being similar to how magic items associated with wizards in prior editions became their implements; psionic items previously associated with psionicists will become their implements.
If I had to call it, I'd say meditation beads for monks (worn around the neck or wrapped around the wrists), and dorjes for soulknives (a small handheld crystal; acts as the "hilt" for their soulblade).
... It'd be like a pepperoni pizza with no sauce, tofu pepperoni, and non-dairy cheese (i.e. No Flavor, or bad flavor...but either way, just WRONG)....
Why wouldn't it have sauce?
Pick on vegans again, I dare you!
Just kidding, non-dairy cheese is nasty.
Tofu pepperoni is good though.
I use tofu as my monk implement.
/silly
Why wouldn't it have sauce?
Pick on vegans again, I dare you!
Just kidding, non-dairy cheese is nasty.
Tofu pepperoni is good though.
I use tofu as my monk implement.
/silly
That is a topic for another thread, my friend...lol
Anyway...my feeling is that monks could be good at defender OR striker. Monk isn't likely to have a HIGH damage output on any one hit, but for the sake of speed they're probably likely to get more opportunities to deal damage than anyone else...flavor-wise, anyway. Odds are, powers that grant them "additional hits" are likely in some way to simply add to the overall damage they deal, rather than allow separate attacks. But a variation on such powers would make them pretty effective defenders too.
I think I'd prefer some kind of bracelet or something...like the Quincy have in the show, Bleach...for Soulknives. I hated Kuwabara in Yu Yu Hakusho...and using something as a "hilt" still strikes me as way too close to Jedi. The bracelet would still be reasonable in serving the purpose, but wouldn't be so...obvious...
Soulknives will be strikers and be monk/rogue hybrids. They will most certainly use crystals as implements.
Soulknives may have an imbeded third eye crystal or something else but this seems to be the most likely method. In fact the use of a psi crystal or third eye may be used by soulknifes or psions as well, i imagine psychic warriors will use these or weapons.
Unarmed strikes would be upped to d6 and given a +2 proficiency bonus to weapon attacks. Spiked Gauntlets, basically.
Soulknives would get to use psi crystals or something as an implement. Instead of set damage, their powers would do [P] damage, P being whatever shape their mindblade is at the time.
That is a topic for another thread, my friend...lol
Anyway...my feeling is that monks could be good at defender OR striker. Monk isn't likely to have a HIGH damage output on any one hit, but for the sake of speed they're probably likely to get more opportunities to deal damage than anyone else...flavor-wise, anyway. Odds are, powers that grant them "additional hits" are likely in some way to simply add to the overall damage they deal, rather than allow separate attacks. But a variation on such powers would make them pretty effective defenders too.
I think I'd prefer some kind of bracelet or something...like the Quincy have in the show, Bleach...for Soulknives. I hated Kuwabara in Yu Yu Hakusho...and using something as a "hilt" still strikes me as way too close to Jedi. The bracelet would still be reasonable in serving the purpose, but wouldn't be so...obvious...
Monk could be a hybrid class that could be built as striker or defender, but I really think it would make more sense as a melee controller. Trips, throws (push/pull/slide), stunning fists (daze/stun), grappling, spinning kicks (AoE).
Abilities like a melee attack that lets you slide your target X squares and then create a burst 1 that knocks everyone prone would be throwing your opponent into his allies. Very "Setting Sun-esque".
Actually, almost everything in Setting Sun was a controller power. Combined with basic monk maneuverability (required for melee control, like shiftyness with beast druids) and flurry of blows, they seem to be controllers to me.
They're high defense melee controllers with striker sub-job.
…Not those kind.
I'm wondering if it will still be a Striker.
I am thinking it will be more like what a jedi would be like, push effects, and using the mindknife as a Lightsabor like weapon.
Impliments wouldn't be that logical for the class. Items that he would use would concentrate on something other than weapon.
But that is just what I see. I might be disappointed.
I don't see Soulknife being the same as it is in the previous edition. (or maybe, if it is Psi power source, mindknife)
That's what I have been thinking, as the Ki is the power of the soul in 4th Ed.
Really there are a multitude of options for monk implements.
Klivian: I see monks as defenders more than strikers. For me I just can't see someone doing more damage with their fists than someone with a giant sword or axe, especially when many opponents are wearing armor. Maybe their shtick will be stopping movement by tripping their mark as they try to move away. I can also easily see the monk having a throw type power at-will similar to the fighter's Tide of Iron.
Huh. Now that you said it. The Monk as a Ki Defender makes much more sense than a Striker.
A Monks unarmed combat wont deal lots of damage, but will be a formidable barrier, that will bash and knock down enemies, making them prone, dazed, etc. even use pressure points to immobilize them. Also, a Monk will be able to attack multiple enemies simultaneously, thus effectively keeping them away from a defendee.
Soulknife would be easy to tackle in the current system. Crystal implement attached to the body somewhere (usually the forehead, chest, or back of the hand). The actual form of your mind blade is determined by your level and the class build you pick (two-handed or dual-wielding).
I love Psi, but dislike 'crystal' flavor. I sure hope therer alternatives.
The good thing about the crystal flavor is that it's so easy to simply reflavor. All crystal items in 3.5 psionics were simply analogues to "normal" arcane items. You could simply describe them as their arcane cousin.
A variety of foci could be used including scrolls or books, mandala, prayer rugs, meditation wheels or beads. I love the RP idea that for his short rest a ki or psi character might perform kata or sit in lotus and chant. I think there already exists room for overlap in implements for disparate power sources and that there is a good fit for Ki and Psi characters sharing some meditation themed implements.
(crystal hilts [which can't be strictly jedi-like if Kuwabarauses them]
Didn't he use a piece of wooden sword?
Vharuck: The good thing about the crystal flavor is that it's so easy to simply reflavor.
Theres a difference between flavor and a straight-jacket. Flavor is fine, but I want the writeup to communicate that the possibilitie of other flavors also exist. Actually, its similar to the Points-of-Light flavor. The Psions in this particular town gets fleshed out with a particular flavor, but theres a great unknown world out there where Psions could be very different.
Some Psions wont use crystals. I hope.
For me, the whole point of Psi is it is ones own mind: innate, existential, immediate and authentic. But the emphasis on crystals, externalizes the power, objectifying it, making it artificial, and foreign to ones self.
I prefer Psi power to emphasize power of the mind.
Therer enough Points-of-Light to be homes for different flavors.
Tattoos.
I think that Monks and Soulblades will use Tattoos like weapon enchantments. This allows DMs to still give new "weapons" as treasure. It allows Monks and Soulblades to kick butt while they're naked (yes, we know that's what you want ... sickos). Also ... it's just a cool asthetic deal. In addition, all the Monk-like illustrations seem to show off blatant tattoos. Seems like a clue to me.
I do also want to state that there is no way that Monks should have "built in" enhancement bonuses. It will, immediately, make the class both weaker and stronger in different ways to such and extent that it would hurt the fundamental principals of 4E. In addition, a party with a Monk would inherantly be "richer" than a party without (they will always have more magic items than they should, because the Monk has his weapon built in).
To make things simpler, Monks can just have an easy ritual to change the Tattoo on their bodies. The component cost would just be the "patern."
I know this won't please everyone, but, to those who are not satisfied, I invite you to consider what would happen to a class that doesn't get the fun of finding a new, awesome "magic weapon." I think you'll see that this hurts the class far more than your ideas that a Monk doesn't need anything because he's THAT amazing.
Also ... I'm kind of trying to soften the blow that you will, likely, get in May. You need to expect this so you're not disappointed.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
Didn't he use a piece of wooden sword?
Nitpicky, aren't we
:PYes, Kuwabara used a wooden sword hilt initially (but lost the requirement of the hilt very early in the series), and not one made of crystal, but I was referring to the fact that both Kuwabara and Jedi use swords manifested blades from hilts. Crystal was just the default material for making psionic stuff in 3.5, and since the OP was inquiring to how updating 3e's monk and soulknife could work, I defaulted to standard 3e mechanics, flavor, and concepts in my post unless otherwise needed to make a point.
As an aside, Kuwabara is much closer to the concept of a soulknife than the jedi are. Kuwabara's blade is a product of his own energy and will. He can use hilts as foci but doesn't need them (read: implement). Whereas a Jedi's lightsaber is not a product of his own abilities. Like a longsword or polearm, a lightsaber is its own, self-contained (albeit extremely powerful and dangerous) weapon that exists apart from the Jedi and are powered by a powercell, not the Jedi's mind. Jedi are simply the only ones skilled enough to use them effectively without cleaving themselves in two due to their training and mastery of the force. Take a Jedi's lightsaber away and no more swashbuckling for him. Very un-soulknife like.
Theres a difference between flavor and a straight-jacket. Flavor is fine, but I want the writeup to communicate that the possibilitie of other flavors also exist.
But that's already the case for anything and everything. Flavor is always mutable. Always has been, always will be.
Seriously, ectoplasm? Psychics do NOT deal with ghosts! Mediums and other half-wit loser charlatans of that sort are NOT psychics! If such abilities did exist, they'd be more akin to the innate powers of druids, shamans, witches and the like...which, of course, there are none.
I don't mind the idea of keeping crystals involved in psionics...but they need to be downplayed, pretty severely, as far as I'm concerned. And...no forehead garbage... The crystal goes on a bracelet or bracer, a necklace or choker, some crown or light headband perhaps, and so on.
I really have no idea what they're going to do with monks and soulknives...or ki and psionics in general. I can't imagine them being any more different than the current power sources...but the more I think about it, the more I believe none of us are even close to what it'll really be.
Seriously, ectoplasm? Psychics do NOT deal with ghosts! Mediums and other half-wit loser charlatans of that sort are NOT psychics! If such abilities did exist, they'd be more akin to the innate powers of druids, shamans, witches and the like...which, of course, there are none.
I'm not too familiar with the subject matter, but according to a quick google search, but some mediums, at least, accredit their powers to psychic abilities and also claim to emit ectoplasm from their orifices when in a trance. Also, I think the medium-psychic connection is something that is relatively recent in popular ghost and psychic mythologies, whereas witches, druids, shamans and the like are more traditional ghost mediators.
I'm not sure how much this ideaology has influenced popular culture and media, but it apparently had enough of an effect to flavor 3e psionics in that direction.
And...no forehead garbage...
No third eyes? But I love third eyes
Dreadman: Here's my guess for the I-don't-need-no-stinking-weapon Monks: Tattoos. ... There is no way that Monks should have "built in" enhancement bonuses.
It will, immediately, make the class both weaker and stronger in different ways to such and extent that it would hurt the fundamental principals of 4E.
In addition, a party with a Monk would inherantly be "richer" than a party without (they will always have more magic items than they should, because the Monk has his weapon built in).
I agree about the mechanical critique. Monks with free built-in 'implements' messes with how 4e safeguards leveling and balance.
But why does a Monk's implement need to be visible?
For example, maybe the implement could be a magical (= Taoist) Ki ritual. Maybe a prayer scroll that the Monk meditates on and then burns with fire to release knowledge into the Ki. The use of this 'treasure' would alter the Monks aura to buff the unarmed attacks. The monk could find another, more powerful, prayer scroll later during the adventures, to 'upgrade' this 'implement' even more.
I invite you to consider what would happen to a class that doesn't get the fun of finding a new, awesome "magic weapon." I think you'll see that this hurts the class far more than your ideas that a Monk doesn't need anything because he's THAT amazing.
For Monk, the 'magic weapon' could be the discovery of deeper insight.
LuciNie: Crystals aren't the problem with psi... their overemphasized importance is the problem.
Exactly.
...that, and ectoplasm.
Why did you remind me about ectoplasm! The oblivion of forgetfulness was bliss.
Seriously, ectoplasm?
Seriously! Ectoplasm?!
Crystals ... and ectoplasm. Not my favorite flavors.
Please, designers, give us some breathing space for other kinds of flavors!
Psychics do NOT deal with ghosts!
Yeah. Let the 4e Necromancers inherit the slime.
I don't mind the idea of keeping crystals involved in psionics... but they need to be downplayed, pretty severely, as far as I'm concerned.
Agreed.
Dreadman: ... It allows Monks and Soulblades to kick butt while they're naked (yes, we know that's what you want ... sickos).
I never noticed how much Monks and Psions have in common. The Monk is the 'naked' (minimalist, essentialist) warrior. The Psion is the 'naked' mage.
I never noticed how much Monks and Psions have in common. The Monk is the 'naked' (minimalist, essentialist) warrior. The Psion is the 'naked' mage.
I agree with this wholeheartedly, and this is why i favor meditative focuses for Psi and Ki classes as opposed to implements used at the time the power is used.
Crystals, prayer wheels and rugs and beads, mandalas, books and scrolls of meditation or of kata (martial forms) that could be used during the short and extended rests of the character to set up their powers for the next encounter or series of encounters.
Not being able to switch out 'implements' during a fight would probably theoretically be balanced by not being able to be disarmed as well.
Any thoughts about an implement that is used to set up the ki and psi powers, instead of one that is used when the power goes off?
kata (martial forms)
I hope they don't call Ki powers Katas, though, as katas are more like a dance routine.
I'm hoping/thinking maybe Techniques or Stunts (Dragonfist action).
I hope they don't call Ki powers Katas, though, as katas are more like a dance routine.
I'm hoping/thinking maybe Techniques or Stunts (Dragonfist action).
I've been on board for techniques for a long time ... such as five finger open palm exploding heart technique! (FTW)
As an aside, Kuwabara is much closer to the concept of a soulknife than the jedi are. Kuwabara's blade is a product of his own energy and will. He can use hilts as foci but doesn't need them (read: implement).
That's a...
REALLY good point. It's been entirely too long since I've seen that show.
I've been on board for techniques for a long time ... such as five finger open palm exploding heart technique! (FTW)
Extreme Quivering Palm?!
For example, maybe the implement could be a magical (= Taoist) Ki ritual. Maybe a prayer scroll that the Monk meditates on and then burns with fire to release knowledge into the Ki. The use of this 'treasure' would alter the Monks aura to buff the unarmed attacks. The monk could find another, more powerful, prayer scroll later during the adventures, to 'upgrade' this 'implement' even more.
For Monk, the 'magic weapon' could be the discovery of deeper insight.
I completely agree with this. The only reason for I suggest a visible "weapon" is because it does effect how your PC looks. At lot of having an awesome weapon is the fact that you look different than you did at lvl 1. I guess this might be different for Monks ... but the same type of people play Monks that play any other class.
In addition, if it is a visible element, the Monk could beat up a bad monk and steal his tattoo, like adventurers steal weapons in general. Perhaps this is another facet of the ritual. This could still be possible with "deeper insight," but players, sometimes, need the DM to say, "look! A shiny weapon just for you!"
On the other hand, the ideas of deeper insight and tattoos are so similar in implementation that I wouldn't be surprised if you could decide which one you want to use.
If WotC says Deeper Insight Scrolls, and you want to Tattoo your poor body, change it.
If WotC says Tattoo Patterns, and you want your Insight to deepen, change it!
I think both would work easily and I really hope this is our answer. It seems elegant enough and the problems (like a Monk not being able to pick up an awesome weapon mid-way through a battle) are minimal.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
Didn't he use a piece of wooden sword?
As stated above he did use a piece of one early on.
However, I the Dark Tournament Saga he used a magical sword hilt to pump up his blade.
As stated above he did use a piece of one early on.
However, I the Dark Tournament Saga he used a magical sword hilt to pump up his blade.
He only used that for like one or two fights, and it was made out of wood from a parasitic tree(or something to that effect).
Even the Shaolin, on whom so much of the unarmed monk mysticism is based, wore armor and used weapons when they had large scale combats!
Electric Bee: I favor meditative focuses for Psi and Ki classes as opposed to implements used at the time the power is used.
Crystals, prayer wheels and rugs and beads, mandalas, books and scrolls of meditation or of kata (martial forms) that could be used during the short and extended rests of the character to set up their powers for the next encounter or series of encounters.
Any thoughts about an implement that is used to set up the ki and psi powers, instead of one that is used when the power goes off?
Meditation rituals could have semi-permanent improvements. But meditations with temporary effects could be cool too, to prep for the next encounter.
I would love the flavor of mandalas for meditations for Psi flavor! Properly, Tibetan mandalas made out of colored sand, butter, or so forth, get ritually destroyed at the end of the meditation to emphasize insight into the impermanence of reality. This emphasizes the new insight of the 'naked' mage and the unimportance of some magic item. Mandala rituals could be as short as 1 minute (roughly equivalent to an Encounter), 10 min, 1 hour, or even as long as 8 hours, depending on the effect of the insight.
Also, Viking flavor is appropriate. The Psi seer (volva) would be 'naked' without implement, but the mind-messing telepath (seidh) would definitely use a staff implement. Apparently the staff represents the interconnectivity of the worlds of the Cosmic Tree, which would be identical with the 3e Astral Plane. In any case, its associated with 'astral travel', or rather the projection of the mindforce (hugr).
By the way, while Viking magic would use the Psi power source for these ... the Primal power source with Druid and Shaman represents Viking nature magic (trolldom) well enough. Similarly, the Arcane power source with Bard and Wizard represents runic ritual magic (galdr) well enough. (Runes arent magic in themselves, but were used to imbed psi-magical effects.)
Hopefully wel have a variety of treasures for Psi and Ki.
Attunement:
The Monk has the ability to draw upon the innate magic dwelling within enchanted items, and imbue his body with said enchantment. If a Monk practices with an enchanted weapon during a short rest, the Monk's unarmed attacks take on the same enchantment.
I agree about the mechanical critique. Monks with free built-in 'implements' messes with how 4e safeguards leveling and balance.
But why does a Monk's implement need to be visible?
For example, maybe the implement could be a magical (= Taoist) Ki ritual. Maybe a prayer scroll that the Monk meditates on and then burns with fire to release knowledge into the Ki. The use of this 'treasure' would alter the Monks aura to buff the unarmed attacks. The monk could find another, more powerful, prayer scroll later during the adventures, to 'upgrade' this 'implement' even more.
For Monk, the 'magic weapon' could be the discovery of deeper insight.
I really like this idea. If this isnt the official manner I will see if I can convince my DM to use this.
I'm not too familiar with the subject matter, but according to a quick google search, but some mediums, at least, accredit their powers to psychic abilities and also claim to emit ectoplasm from their orifices when in a trance. Also, I think the medium-psychic connection is something that is relatively recent in popular ghost and psychic mythologies, whereas witches, druids, shamans and the like are more traditional ghost mediators.
I'm not sure how much this ideaology has influenced popular culture and media, but it apparently had enough of an effect to flavor 3e psionics in that direction.
No third eyes? But I love third eyes
I think one of the reasons people tend to equate psychic powers with the spiritual is because of things like chakras and third eyes and other notions. But regardless, I can't tie mediums and psychics together at all in my own thoughts. They're as unrelated as the abyss and the nine hells. Perhaps it's because souls are considered sentient that people believe that such is the source of the mind. But, I just don't buy that.
I agree about the mechanical critique. Monks with free built-in 'implements' messes with how 4e safeguards leveling and balance.
But why does a Monk's implement need to be visible?
For example, maybe the implement could be a magical (= Taoist) Ki ritual. Maybe a prayer scroll that the Monk meditates on and then burns with fire to release knowledge into the Ki. The use of this 'treasure' would alter the Monks aura to buff the unarmed attacks. The monk could find another, more powerful, prayer scroll later during the adventures, to 'upgrade' this 'implement' even more.
For Monk, the 'magic weapon' could be the discovery of deeper insight.
It's become rather well-known that the trance-like states of mind of the faithful induced either by prayer or meditation are identical. It's not a leap at all that monks might chant from a scroll or some such at given times to focus their ki more directly.
For it to work I think it has to be able to be found through adventuring (or bought with adventuring loot or created through a loot consuming ritual). It also would need a parellel to the 20% sell off value of old magic items.
This is why i favor a meditative focus. It makes sense as treasure. It allows for some overlap between classes. And it preserves the gadget free feel of classes like monks and psions by not requiring them to use gadgets in combat while giving the class the opportunity for a RP appropriate meditation during rests feel.
I don't think a consumable item will work as a replacment for the weapons and implements used by the current power sources.
For it to work I think it has to be able to be found through adventuring (or bought with adventuring loot or created through a loot consuming ritual). It also would need a parellel to the 20% sell off value of old magic items.
This is why i favor a meditative focus. It makes sense as treasure. It allows for some overlap between classes. And it preserves the gadget free feel of classes like monks and psions by not requiring them to use gadgets in combat while giving the class the opportunity for a RP appropriate meditation during rests feel.
I didn't specify it in my previous post, but I should've. I actually don't think the scroll should be consumable. I liked Haldrik's idea, but I don't think the scrolls should be consumed. You pick a teaching, meditate on it...and until you meditate again, that is your "implement". Magical meditation scrolls would impart spiritual knowledge more refined than that of normal ones, thus imparting their bonus as other class' magical implements do. I'm not against meditation beads and other such items either though. Most classes have variety, so monks should too.
As their mind gets stronger ( and it does, leveling up is exactly that), they are able to create their mind blade stronger. Just like pulling weight, the more you pull the stronger you get. The more you use your mindblade, the better you become to manifestate it.
I would think they would use feats to get the +s on mind blade.
Monk is much harder to justify though
I'd start them at a higher [w] for unarmed strike to begin with.
I was also thinking they could choose from a few different class abilities that work similar to channel divinity, where they chose a stance which determines their unarmed strike damage and qualities.
"Monkey" would give you [w] = d6 and high crit and the user would have no penalty to attacking while prone.
"Crane" would give [W] = d8 and bonus to AC
"Tiger" would give [W] = d8 and brutal 1
etc.
Also there would be paragon paths for each stance.
I also watched Kung Fu panda twice and Kung Fu Hustle in the past 72 hours.
I personally would think monk would have feats for his unarmed attack, such as adding "high crit" or "brutal" qualities. Those would be paragon tier. Others such as increasing [w] for unarmed strike would also be there.
I'd start them at a higher [w] for unarmed strike to begin with.
I was also thinking they could choose from a few different class abilities that work similar to channel divinity, where they chose a stance which determines their unarmed strike damage and qualities.
"Monkey" would give you [w] = d6 and high crit and the user would have no penalty to attacking while prone.
"Crane" would give [W] = d8 and bonus to AC
"Tiger" would give [W] = d8 and brutal 1
etc.
Also there would be paragon paths for each stance.
I also watched Kung Fu panda twice and Kung Fu Hustle in the past 72 hours.
I don't mind that notion...but I'm too tired to contribute to it right now. Don't blame you regarding the movies...but I think I'll stick with Enter the Dragon.
I don't mind that notion...but I'm too tired to contribute to it right now. Don't blame you regarding the movies...but I think I'll stick with Enter the Dragon.
I think before they write any ki class they should watch every wuxia movie possible.
As far as soulknives go, I don't have a problem with them being fashioned after jedi, as I can't think of any other fantasy sources of energy blade wielding warriors with pseudo-mystical backgrounds.
I think before they write any ki class they should watch every wuxia movie possible.
As far as soulknives go, I don't have a problem with them being fashioned after jedi, as I can't think of any other fantasy sources of energy blade wielding warriors with pseudo-mystical backgrounds.
Dunno that it's legendary...but there's always Psylocke from Marvel...
But yeah...the Jedi and Kuwabara are really the only other ones that come to mind at all besides her.
I'd like to see Tatoos as the Psionic implement because they're both inconspicuous if you want a "naked" caster and because psionic transferable tatoos existed in 3.5. They also jumped off you and bit people, which is always good for a laugh.
I absolutely love the idea of having styles as implements for Ki classes as long as they're not disposable.
Monks should be casters whose attacks are implement+STAT+2 vs AC, with the ability to use weapons as implements. This makes what weapon the monk uses a matter of personal style instead of effectiveness.
Dunno that it's legendary...but there's always Psylocke from Marvel...
But yeah...the Jedi and Kuwabara are really the only other ones that come to mind at all besides her.
You forgot Ryoko.
You forgot Ryoko.
Ack, I can't believe I forgot her, and Tenchi too. Washu's gonna stick me in an extradimensional toilet...I know it.
I think the best thing for Soulknife (or whatever it ends up being named) would be to have a semi-conventional melee build, and a Soulbow build...for what it's worth.
Ack, I can't believe I forgot her, and Tenchi too. Washu's gonna stick me in an extradimensional toilet...I know it.
I think the best thing for Soulknife (or whatever it ends up being named) would be to have a semi-conventional melee build, and a Soulbow build...for what it's worth.
If we include soulbows also, then you need to add the Quincys from Bleach to the list also.:D