I have some Ideas:
whenever I think about what it means to be a Monk, this quote from the movie Once Apon A Time In Mexico pops into my head;
"The man who wants nothing is invincible"
being a Monk is about focusing on the inmaterial, monks don't have wants, they have everything they need to be awsome.
I would like to see a return of VoP(vow of poverty) in the Monk; nothing too complicated just a balanced way for Monks not to own anything of worth, I think with magic items being what they are in 4E it would be easy and simple. VoP would be best as a Monk Paragon Path IMO.
Also I have a good feeling we are going to see Ki Shout and maybe some other Kung-Fu Hustle type stuff, maybe not in the Monk, hard to say where they are going to go with it until we know how many Ki classes there are going to be, for instance the monk might not be very Ninjaish if their is a Ninja class.
And the Drunken Master Paragon Path is a must.
Flurry of Blows
Minor action, At-will
Dex vs Reflex, melee weapon
[w] damage (no stat mod)
A different approach than the curse or sneak attack mechanics to a striker.
Dex vs Reflex, melee weapon
this brings up a interesting point; most of the time the monk uses no weapons so it has no prof bonus, so are nearly all of it's attacks going to be against Ref and Fort? or would they just get a make up bonus?
this brings up a interesting point; most of the time the monk uses no weapons so it has no prof bonus, so are nearly all of it's attacks going to be against Ref and Fort? or would they just get a make up bonus?
My guess is kind of both. They would get a +1 bonus to hit with "monk weapons" (for flavor purposes, like Rogue Weapon talent), proficiency in the unarmed strike, and (to compensate for the lower damage) unarmed attacks would get to strike Fort or Reflex.
Or, I could be completely wrong.
As for what I want to see, I hope to see the following for the Monk paths: a path which focuses on pressure point and other mystical attacks, and a path which focuses on monk weapon tricks. These could be a Wis/Dex for pressure points and a Str/Dex for weapon tricks.
Most strikers so far are expected to have very high AC. The rogue uses Dex as their attack stat, and archer rangers do as well. The Warlock has slightly lower AC because their Int tends to be lower, and we currently suspect the Barbarian will be using their secondary stat for AC like all the other primal classes (but they make up for it with having higher HP than other strikers).
Thus, I suspect the monk will either have Wis as a primary stat and gain AC from it, or they'll probably use Dex as a secondary stat. I really hope they get some incentive to stay in cloth armor.
I still would have liked to see the Monk as a Divine Striker, but I've come to accept Ki as a power source.
-Flurry of Blows
-An incentive to keep in cloth armor (+WIS to AC?)
-Monk Fighting Style - A bonus to either unarmed attacks or monk weapons
Stats - either Dex and Wis/Str, or Wis and Dex/Str.
We're really just missing one medium-powered class feature. Possibly a return of the ki strike, letting the monk bypass Str modifier's worth of damage resistance (operating under the Dex primary idea). That would give a reason to dabble into either secondary stat, Wisdom for AC and Strength for damage.
I love the ideas for paragon paths. Honestly, if we can get 30 levels worth of powers together by March on this thread, we'll have a cool comparison to the official monk, and an alternate version if someone doesn't like the official take on it.
Stats - either Dex and Wis/Str, or Wis and Dex/Str.
this brings up another point; I can see the monk focusing on str, dex, con, and wis, so which one is going to be it's prime stat?
Also I have a feeling we are going to see some of the stuff from Tome of Battle; we saw White Raven in the Warlord's powers so maybe Setting Sun will show up in Monk
"When making an unarmed strike, add your Charisma to your to-hit roll."
At level 1, that can be as high as +4, reasonably comparable to a rogue's dagger or a fighter's weapon type. By epic, it could be +8 or +9... about the same as a +2 or +3 prof weapon with a +6 enhancement.
An original aspect could be that in exchange for some damage or status ailments (weakened, slowed or immobilized) he has powers to enhance the damage or attack bonus, but straining himself, for it might actually be too much for his body. :P
I'm thinking they're going to use dex and wis mostly because thats what Githzerai have bonuses to, thats my deduction.
That's a fair assessment.
My internet crapped out before I could send my last post. The short of it was this:
"Dabbling" in a stat for AC doesn't exist, Ekko. Every light armored class has a stat for AC that is either a Primary or single Secondary stat (except for the Ranger, melee Str/Wis rangers need to pick up Chain armor or their AC falls behind). Simply put, if you do not raise your AC boosting stat every chance you get, your AC will be 4 behind what it could have been, thus you will get hit more often. You will be such a tantalizing target that some enemies might risk the defender's ability to attack you since you'll be easier to hit than the defender even with the mark.
While I would like to see the Monk have Dex as their sole secondary stat, getting AC from Wisdom is very possible. Since I can't imagine a Monk with low Wisdom, I suspect Wisdom will either be the sole Attack stat or the sole Secondary stat; I hope it's an attack stat, because I want the monk to be something other than an unarmed warrior.
This is just one item on a long list of things I'd like to see in the 4e monk.
Mastery of the body is what drive a monk's fighting prowess, and his enlightement is what gives him an edge and make him more then a street fighter... so Dex primary, Wis secondary seem a lot more logical, and also allows the monk to increase his AC from the Dex bonus, no need for a 'wis bonus to ac' rule.
I'd see Str or Con has secondary ability for other builds... in order to have the 'big brawny monk' archetype possible.
Many people said D&D 4e was too 'anime' like... but that's perfect for the monk. Special martial-art moves easily turn into power and the class essentially write itself. I can see different fighting style being implement in a similar way to Stance/Rage/Shapeshifts as well.
Main issue for the class imo:
- Lack of weapon: Making them need to use 'monk weapon' won't work for people who wish a unarmed fighter... so how do you deal with the lack of damage dice and weapon profiency of unarmed? (Possibly simply up the damage dice of unarmed and + prof for monks, simple enough).
- What will be their Striker mechanism? (I personally like the Flurry of Blow idea).
- What other special feature will they have?
Why would monks need charisma for a build? I should be Wis primary str or dex secondary.
So...
Strength adds to unarmed attacks to-hit
Dex is the normal attack stat
Wisdom is the rider for status effects
OR should I swap str and dex, and make Wis a rider on Ac, too?
What if I have Dex 18 and Wis 18... do I get +8 to my AC? I'm not saying it's a bad idea, because that'd actually allow a monk to use no armor what so ever... but you do have to consider this.
If you need to give them a 'Turn Wisdom into AC bonus' ability when they have Dex has a 2nd stat... why not make Dex their first stat and call it a day?
I also like your take as another way to solve the 'non weapon' issue - Just make their melee attack dex based, but have them add STR to the damage roll if they are unarmed... so their at will deal 1D4 + Dex + Str while unarmed, and [W] + Dex when using monk weapons.
This means the unarmed monk will focus on small [w] attack with multiple hits (like a ranger) while a weapon monk would go for the big [w] power.
Wisdom being the stats rider for all 'ki blast/shout/jump' power makes a lot more sense to me than it being the attack stats...
I also like your take as another way to solve the 'non weapon' issue - Just make their melee attack dex based, but have them add STR to the damage roll if they are unarmed... so their at will deal 1D4 + Dex + Str while unarmed, and [W] + Dex when using monk weapons.
Not damage... it's +to hit.
I showed that it is actually a slower progression than magic weapons (which an unarmed monk cannot use)
At level 1, with an 18 str, it's like a +1 weapon with +3 proficency. Goes up to being a +2 weapon at level 8 (instead of 6), +3 at 14 (instead of 11), +4 at 21 (+5 with Demigod, which catches up with magic weapons) and the last bonus at level 28.
a 16 in the stat is like a +2 proficency magic weapon. Anything less, and a weapon is just better.
1) ArmorCloth armor proficiency only
2) SurvibabilityAdd a class feature to increase AC (either the same as we've seen for Prima Characters or maybe even adding double the modifier value) Also high HP compared to other classes. MAybe even a temporary hit point gaining/stacking mechanism or attacks that auto heal
3) Weapons Unarmed only (maybe staffs and other "martial-arts" weapons)
4) How to make an unarmed striker viable increase damage dice and proficiency or make the majority of their power be multiple attacks
5) Mechanic to do Striker Damage (aka. HQ's and Warlocks Curse) (Unlikely: Since Unarmed attacks are low dice to begin with maybe everytime you get a 4 on a d4 you get to do xd4 damage per tiers or level) (More Likely) something along the lines of SA if not a complete copy (They could also) MAke their Striker damage feature be that every time that an enemy lets you do an OA against them instead of your basic attack you do automatic xdx damage (or extra xdx damage if you hit with the OA)
6) Attacks: I expect a lot of self-healing, multiple attacks against a target, extra damage with CA, multiple Stances and incredibly high movility
Flurry of blows class feature: at-will minor action attack.
Dex based powers with Wisdom power riders or Unarmed power riders.
Also, the easiest way to give them unarmed combat is to give them a proficiency bonus to unarmed attacks as a class feature. This would also open up the possibility of a multiclass feat that grants unarmed proficiency.
Also, the easiest way to give them unarmed combat is to give them a proficiency bonus to unarmed attacks as a class feature. This would also open up the possibility of a multiclass feat that grants unarmed proficiency.
That's what my stat-to hit bonus is for.
the way I see it, there would be one unarmed build, and one weapon build. The unarmed one would get the unarmed bonuses, and perhaps an AC boost in Cloth, and the weapon one would get other bonuses.
"Dabbling" in a stat for AC doesn't exist, Ekko. Every light armored class has a stat for AC that is either a Primary or single Secondary stat (except for the Ranger, melee Str/Wis rangers need to pick up Chain armor or their AC falls behind). Simply put, if you do not raise your AC boosting stat every chance you get, your AC will be 4 behind what it could have been, thus you will get hit more often. You will be such a tantalizing target that some enemies might risk the defender's ability to attack you since you'll be easier to hit than the defender even with the mark.
What I meant by dabbling into WIS for AC was based on the assumption that WIS was a secondary stat that boosted your AC (my guess was Dex will be the primary - all monks are agile), so you got either your entire Wisdom modifier to AC when you wear cloth armor (in addition to your normal AC) or, maybe, 1/2 your Wisdom modifier.
Here is my idea of what the Monk's Unarmed Talent may look like:
I still would have liked to see the Monk as a Divine Striker, but I've come to accept Ki as a power source.
Have you looked at Martial Artist in Advanced Player's Guide (3rd Party)?
That's what my stat-to hit bonus is for.
the way I see it, there would be one unarmed build, and one weapon build. The unarmed one would get the unarmed bonuses, and perhaps an AC boost in Cloth, and the weapon one would get other bonuses.
The only weapons that should be available to the monk class itself (besides unarmed attacks, of course) are 'monk weapons' like quarterstaves and nunchaku. I'm thinking that 'monks' that wield swords and spears will be represented by a new Ki Defender class (I'm not sure if it will be called Samurai, Sohei, or something else).
Unarmed attacks might end up increasing their damage according to tier, so it might end up looking like this:
Heroic: 1d6 +3
Paragon: 1d10 +3
Epic: 2d6 +3
There might also be feats that modify unarmed attack properties, like one that drops attack bonus by -1 but adds the hi-critical property.
Then let them sort out whether they wish to be unarmed or not.
I would also say a slight defensive raise for not wearing armour possibly +1 to all defences when in cloth armour.
I quite like the idea of the Striker extra damage being a 1[W] unarmed attack once per round as a minor action.
(Come on, someone had to say it)
I quite like the idea of the Striker extra damage being a 1[W] unarmed attack once per round as a minor action.
Who said once per round?
The idea was to be able to get THREE attacks , if you didn't need to move. two if you had a Minor action to spare.
This is just one item on a long list of things I'd like to see in the 4e monk.
I wonder if there's one for "Shining Finger" and "Falcon Punch"?
-Joni
"Faaalcon ... Paaunch!"
Daily @ Ki, Unarmed
Standard Action Close Blast 3
Target: All creatures in blast
Attack: Strength vs. Reflex
Hit: 4d6 + Strength modifier fire damage and you push the target 2 squares. If the target is bloodied, deal an extra 2d6 fire damage and push the target an additional number of squares equal to your Strength modifier.
Miss: Half damage and you push the target 1 square.
Falcon Punch Captain Falcon (Paragon Path) Attack 20
"Faaalcon ... Paaunch!"
Daily @ Ki, Unarmed
Standard Action Close Blast 3
Target: All creatures in blast
Attack: Strength vs. fort
Hit: 4d6 + Strength modifier fire damage and you push the target 2 squares. If the target is bloodied, deal an extra 2d6 fire damage and push the target an additional number of squares equal to your Strength modifier.
Miss: Half damage and you push the target 1 square.
Fixed.
I don't believe there will be an increase in unarmed damage die by tier. However, I can see a class feature causing your unarmed strike to gain a +3 proficiency bonus, dealing 1d8 damage. In this case, monks will use an implement - I suspect they will be handwraps. There's a clear design intent that every class, without exception, will use an implement of some kind.
Proficiency will, obviously, be in cloth armor only, though I doubt there will be any restrictions placed on what armor the monk wears. I suspect one class feature will allow the use of Wisdom instead of Intelligence or Dexterity for the light armor AC bonus.
I liked the way Flurry of Blows was brought up, though I suspect it will be modified into a stance - "once per round, you can make a free melee basic attack" - rather than taking up an action. It will be the monk's answer to Sneak Attack and Hunter's Quarry. Several monk powers will have the caveat "Special: When you make a melee basic attack from your Flurry of Blows class feature, you can use this power in place of the basic attack".
I suspect we'll see the monk, like the ranger, being focused on multiple attacks, but the execution will be different.
I would, as a class feature, increase the weapon dice of unarmed attacks and proficiency, possibly in the way Ultimatecalibur suggested. I dont think however i'd be so harsh for dice (id say at least d6 with +3 or d8 with +2 proficiency).
Then let them sort out whether they wish to be unarmed or not.
The reason I suggested +3 d4 offhand was because the Spiked Gauntlets in AV are +2 d6 offhand weapons. I would prefer that "new" weapons not outdate older weapons. Plus way should Monks get a magical longsword for free.
If possible, I would like the "unarmed" Monk's weapon list to look like this:
If you make monk implement be handwraps, then they get shorted on the hand slot for magic items.
Only if you say so. Clerics wearing holy symbols as necklaces don't lose out on their neck slot items.
Flurry of blows could be how they do striker damage. My idea is that they get to string together a series of at-wills to improve their damage (And with rider effects like shifting on some of them they can get a lot of mobility and versatility). Say 2 at-wills per standard action in heroic, 4 in paragon, and 6 in epic. Monks would have very powerful dailes to make them striker like in damage too as they couldn't be stringed together.
So say your level 11 monk, Ryu, is mostly surrounded by minions and one normal enemy. 1. Ryu uses one of his level 1 at-wills, hurricane kick (close burst 1), to hit all the enemies around him.
2. With the orc still standing he uses his level 3 at-will, shoryuken, to punch the orc in the jaw and "fly" a number of squares equal to his wisdom modifier.
3. He takes down the orc but can't get far enough to hit the enemy troll so Ryu uses his level 2 utility at-will (Like Rogues not all utilities would be at-will), Roll, to shift a number of squares equal to his Dex mod.
4. Ending 5 squares away from the troll Ryu uses another level 1 at-will, hadouken (ranged 5), to hit his foe.
Next round: Realizing that he can't hit the troll hard enough with a single hit Ryu chooses to use one of his dailies, Chohadouken, to blast the troll with a heavy blast that knocks the foe prone so Ryu's Rogue friend can finish him off.
I'd say put unarmed damage at 1d6. So at epic levels a monk could potentially do 12d6+6xstrength/wisdom mod (Some moves might even do both wisdom and strength but not have any rider effects. Something like a ki powered punch) if all attacks land and are against a single target.
Although one could argue you can achieve the same effect by having several powers that key off of a move action or minor action (that do considerable less damage of course) several stances that attack enemies in their turns (reversals) and several standard actions that attack more than once.
At the same time, I think some of the ideas here are very out there - for instance, the idea of no encounter powers, or of attacks that take move actions. Monks will follow the same scheme of at-wills, encounters and dailies as anyone else, and I don't see abilities that aren't about movement taking a move action any time soon. The full attack action was absolutely devastating to tactics in 3.5, and I doubt the designers will be giving any incentive to do anything with that action other than, well, move.
I see the monk having, as previously mentioned, a Flurry of Blows ability that lets him make a free basic attack every round as his answer to Sneak Attack, Hunter's Quarry or Pact Boon. In order to play off the idea of combination attacks, I believe that several of the monk encounter and daily powers will have a Special trigger that allows them to be used in place of this basic attack, akin to the swordmage's Aegis of Assault.
In 4E, classes are front loaded and mooching from class dips is gone. Just give the monk what he deserved up front.
The monk needs its big unarmed damage right out of the gate. No d4s or d6s that get better as you level up. Nothing is as lame as playing an unarmed character in a d20 game (3E monk or Saga edition teras kasi master) and waiting around forever for your damage to catch up with what everyone else was doing at level 1.
In 4E, classes are front loaded and mooching from class dips is gone. Just give the monk what he deserved up front.
Larger dice is not the only thing determining damage in 4e. While the unarmed attack basic melee attack may deal only a d4+Str damage this does not mean that a Monks at-will attacks will be 1[w], in fact the monks at-wills could be 2[w] and their encounters and dailies could have even higher numbers. This fits very well into the idea of a monk's power being in his techniques rather than his weapons.
1) Monk's striker damage ability be based on movement, similar to the 3.5 scout's skirmish ability.
2) At-wills that feature lots of pushs and knock prones.
3) Encounter abilities that are predominantly move or minor actions. Lower in damage than normal striker encounters, but make up for it by allowing movement and an additional attack. For example, Flying Kick, which allows you to charge as a move action and not provoke OAs.
4) Dailies which are either stances or, at higher levels, more anime-style attacks. (Kamehameha!)
Basically, I want to see a monk charge up his flaming fists (daily, stance, free action), do a flying kick across the room(encounter, move action, make a basic attack, add d6 from monk skirmish ability, add 3 fire from flaming fists), and then follow it up with a spinning fist (at-will, standard action, [W] + Str + 3 fire + d6 from skirmish, knocked prone).
At the same time, I think some of the ideas here are very out there - for instance, the idea of no encounter powers, or of attacks that take move actions. Monks will follow the same scheme of at-wills, encounters and dailies as anyone else, and I don't see abilities that aren't about movement taking a move action any time soon. The full attack action was absolutely devastating to tactics in 3.5, and I doubt the designers will be giving any incentive to do anything with that action other than, well, move.
Well if an attack actually keys off of a move action there is no reason for the move action to be wasted. It could be an attack that allows you to shift x number of squares an attack all those you pass by.
At Renchard: How did the skirmish ability work?
At Renchard: How did the skirmish ability work?
If you moved more than 10ft (2 squares) in a round, the remainder of your attacks in the round gained +Xd6 in damage (X being 1 +1 for every 4 scout levels or so).
Larger dice is not the only thing determining damage in 4e. While the unarmed attack basic melee attack may deal only a d4+Str damage this does not mean that a Monks at-will attacks will be 1[w], in fact the monks at-wills could be 2[w] and their encounters and dailies could have even higher numbers. This fits very well into the idea of a monk's power being in his techniques rather than his weapons.
That is problematic because it limits what monk weapons you will actually use. Why use a d4 unarmed strike when you can use a staff that does a d8? Also, it makes multiclassing incredibly wonk when you have to either restrict all the powers to special weapons that no one but the monk actually uses (sai, staff, nunchaku, ect) or have them have them deal crazy amounts of [W] that get silly when combined with mordenkrads.
Giving monks high unarmed damage right out of the gate really seems like the easiest and most obvious solution.
My rogues do just fine with d4s or d6s for their weapons (though they have higher to hit because of it). The Ranger seems to be the odd one out with d8 weapons for a striker.
The barbarian, the warlock and the ranger are all doing better than d4s on their basics/at-wills. The rogue is the odd man out.
That is problematic because it limits what monk weapons you will actually use. Why use a d4 unarmed strike when you can use a staff that does a d8?
Because most of the high [w] powers require an unarmed weapon to use. If my idea was used There would be 2 monk paths: unarmed and armed.
Also, it makes multiclassing incredibly wonk when you have to either restrict all the powers to special weapons that no one but the monk actually uses (sai, staff, nunchaku, ect) or have them have them deal crazy amounts of [W] that get silly when combined with mordenkrads.
Oh like how Rogues are already limited to light blades and crossbows (and clubs/maces if you take a specific option)? I would not make the monk's powers exclusive to specific weapons, I would make them limited by/befit by weapon group. Most of the weapons you listed fit in one or more weapon groups and those weapon groups are used by other classes just fine.
Sai could be either be clubs or light blades depending on which style (realistic or Hollywood) they were going after so Rogues could use them, Staves just need a few more member weapons for them to be a viable weapon group (the Eku and Hexagonal staff would be fitting members) and monk weapon powers might aid some wizard and invoker builds, and Nunchaku would be just another member of the flail group and flail fighters are a decent, if oft ignored, build.
Giving monks high unarmed damage right out of the gate really seems like the easiest and most obvious solution.
Easiest does not always equal best. If you make unarmed attacks +3/d6 you end up making stick(club +2/d6) fighting martial artists far less viable than they should be.
I would prefer that any monk released could use these weapon groups in a viable build: Unarmed, Maces, Flails, Spears, Staves, Light Blades and Heavy Blades
Because most of the high [w] powers require an unarmed weapon to use. If my idea was used There would be 2 monk paths: unarmed and armed.
Well, maybe. If the unarmed damage was boosted we wouldnt have to worry about segregating the powers though and could make more flavorful build options instead of just "unarmed" and "armed".
Armed already sounds more fun just because it intrinsically has many more options and ramifications (club/lightblade/stave specific feats and powers from multiclassing) while unarmed is just stuck with unarmed stuff. Id rather see "desert wind" vs. "iron monkey" vs "hidden tiger" builds that are distiguished by their own unigue effects instead of copying the fighter's schtick where your weapon group determines your type of effects within a specific build.
Oh like how Rogues are already limited to light blades and crossbows (and clubs/maces if you take a specific option)? I would not make the monk's powers exclusive to specific weapons, I would make them limited by/befit by weapon group. Most of the weapons you listed fit in one or more weapon groups and those weapon groups are used by other classes just fine.
So are you saying the monk relies on low damage die weapons (club, light blades, ect) and then has to have a special class feature to tack on damage? Isnt that just a rehash of the rogue's setup?
Or does he have higher [W] powers than the rogue? Then what is stopping the rogue from mooching those powers and dealing more damage than the monk with monk powers by using sneak attack? Is there another option im missing?
Sai could be either be clubs or light blades depending on which style (realistic or Hollywood) they were going after so Rogues could use them, Staves just need a few more member weapons for them to be a viable weapon group (the Eku and Hexagonal staff would be fitting members) and monk weapon powers might aid some wizard and invoker builds, and Nunchaku would be just another member of the flail group and flail fighters are a decent, if oft ignored, build.
So the armed monk gets cool options for feats and class dipping while the unarmed guy is high and dry? Does the monk get to pick up the Heavy Flail because youre not making monk powers rely on specific weapons but groups instead? Why would the monk ever use nunchaku then?
Easiest does not always equal best. If you make unarmed attacks +3/d6 you end up making stick(club +2/d6) fighting martial artists far less viable than they should be.
Actually, clubs make club users far less viable than they should be, especially when the class can use flails for the same techniques. A club user is going to suck without special class features and even then, look at the club rogue vs the other rogues! The monk's class feature could be bigger damage die when using monk weapons, including unarmed damage.
Well, maybe. If the unarmed damage was boosted we wouldnt have to worry about segregating the powers though and could make more flavorful build options instead of just "unarmed" and "armed".
Armed already sounds more fun just because it intrinsically has many more options and ramifications (club/lightblade/stave specific feats and powers from multiclassing) while unarmed is just stuck with unarmed stuff. Id rather see "desert wind" vs. "iron monkey" vs "hidden tiger" builds that are distiguished by their own unigue effects instead of copying the fighter's schtick where your weapon group determines your type of effects within a specific build.
You do know that WotC already tried a "style" based build once with another class, and the majority's reaction towards it was pretty negative. WotC assented to their demands and Wizard builds ended up not being defined by their school.
So are you saying the monk relies on low damage die weapons (club, light blades, ect) and then has to have a special class feature to tack on damage? Isnt that just a rehash of the rogue's setup?
Nope. I would not want the Monk to have another Quarry/Curse/Sneak Attack like ability if he was a striker. If the monk is going to be a striker I would like the powers themselves to be the source of their striking power.
Or does he have higher [W] powers than the rogue? Then what is stopping the rogue from mooching those powers and dealing more damage than the monk with monk powers by using sneak attack? Is there another option im missing?
Lets see... Wis being a good candidate for the Monk's primary attack stat?
So the armed monk gets cool options for feats and class dipping while the unarmed guy is high and dry?
Just because feats currently do not exist does not mean that they will not exist.
Does the monk get to pick up the Heavy Flail because youre not making monk powers rely on specific weapons but groups instead? Why would the monk ever use nunchaku then?
Because a large number of the powers flails could be compatible with would be two weapon powers and the heavy flail costs a feat to get?
Actually, clubs make club users far less viable than they should be, especially when the class can use flails for the same techniques. A club user is going to suck without special class features and even then, look at the club rogue vs the other rogues! The monk's class feature could be bigger damage die when using monk weapons, including unarmed damage.
The club's main problem is not that it is a +2/d6 mace, but the fact that most classes that can use it also have proficiency in the mace, a +2/d8 mace.
Nope. I would not want the Monk to have another Quarry/Curse/Sneak Attack like ability if he was a striker. If the monk is going to be a striker I would like the powers themselves to be the source of their striking power.
This has proven to be problematic. The Barbarian was built this way, with their striker bonus damage built into their powers. Problem is that a Melee Ranger or a Brutal Rogue was perfectly capable of picking up the Barbarian's powers via multiclassing and they'd get the best of both worlds: sneak attack/quarry and high damage powers.
In the design and development articles, they've said that there will be some sort of change on that side of things.
I'd also like to see them get either an armour bonus or resistance to untyped damage equal to the amount of enemies within X squares to represent that monks can tear up a horde of minions, but archers are thier worst nightmare.
Wisdom would work as a primary stat, simply because it governs perception. Basically, with a high wisdom, you see openings easier. I'd prefer dex though, because monks with low wisdom are everywhere in kung-fu films. Usually they're the bad guy.
With fixed damage, it would look something like:
Class feature: You may use the "Flurry of blows" power.
Flurry of Blows
Minor Action, At-will. melee 1
[primary stat] vs AC
Hit: do 1D4 + str damage
Increase damage to 2D4 + strength at 11 level, and 3d4 + strength at 21
This version might be a little overpowered- I should probably drop the strength mod and rely on the occasional move action to bring it up to Striker Par.
You do know that WotC already tried a "style" based build once with another class, and the majority's reaction towards it was pretty negative. WotC assented to their demands and Wizard builds ended up not being defined by their school.
Im not talking about actual "schools" like the ones that existed for the wizard at one point but only names of builds like the "Beast Masters", "Battleragers", "Tempests" and "Bloodragers" that we already have. What im proposing isnt so much a "school" as just another name for a build or, more precisely, builds that are based in different styles of fighting that are more unique than simply armed vs unarmed.
Nope. I would not want the Monk to have another Quarry/Curse/Sneak Attack like ability if he was a striker. If the monk is going to be a striker I would like the powers themselves to be the source of their striking power.
Lets see... Wis being a good candidate for the Monk's primary attack stat?
So clerics, paladins, avengers, invokers, etc, get free access to striker damage on par with the monk just by multiclassing their high [W] powers? No thanks, i think we should stick with class features being the source of extra damage.
Just because feats currently do not exist does not mean that they will not exist.
Will their be as many unarmed feats as there are feats for all the other monk weapons combined? If the builds are "armed" vs "unarmed", the weapon-user has way more any options unless you literally make over a dozen unarmed feats to level the field.
Also, multiclassing would still suck for the unarmed monk. As is, most builds can mooch powers from other classes and use them pretty well if they share attack stats. If the monk's primary weapon is 1d4 and his main source of damage is monk powers, then he is hosed in the multiclassing department.
Because a large number of the powers flails could be compatible with would be two weapon powers and the heavy flail costs a feat to get?
You want a striker that has a bunch of powers with a 2 weapon requirement, high [W] and Wis as the main stat? The ranger will end up being a better monk than the monk once he dips the powers and adds his quarry in there.
The club's main problem is not that it is a +2/d6 mace, but the fact that most classes that can use it also have proficiency in the mace, a +2/d8 mace.
The problem is that the club sucks because the mace is hands down better in every respect. If you want a class to use a club you need to give it special class features that specifically work with the club. Relying on powers that deal with the broad weapon groups just wont cut it when people will just use a mace or whatever new one-handed martial mace is released eventually.
Agreed with the fixed damage for Monk powers. I also am a firm believer that the monk's "Striker feature" should be a Minor Action at-will attack version of Flurry of Blows.
With fixed damage, it would look something like:
Class feature: You may use the "Flurry of blows" power.
Flurry of Blows
Minor Action, At-will. melee 1
[primary stat] vs AC
Hit: do 1D4 + str damage
Increase damage to 2D4 + strength at 11 level, and 3d4 + strength at 21
This version might be a little overpowered- I should probably drop the strength mod and rely on the occasional move action to bring it up to Striker Par.
At first glance i like the idea, but i think it pins the monk down too much considering it promotes standing there and doing Standard>Minor>Minor every round to deal maximize damage. Maybe something like this would work:
Flurry of Blows
When you hit with a melee attack, you can choose to activate your Flurry of Blows ability and make a follow-up attack. This power can only be used once per round but is not expended for the round if it misses.
Flurry of Blows
Your opening attack was only part of a flurry of strikes.
At-Will + Ki, Weapon
Free Action Melee Weapon
Trigger: You hit with a melee attack
Attack: Str or Dex vs AC
Hit: 1D6 damage
Increase damage to 2D6 at 11th level, and 3d6 at 21st level.
EDIT: Added ability to keep it on a miss.
At first glance i like the idea, but i think it pins the monk down too much considering it promotes standing there and doing Standard>Minor>Minor every round to deal maximize damage. Maybe something like this would work:
Flurry of Blows
When you hit with a melee attack, you can choose to activate your Flurry of Blows ability and make a follow-up attack. This power can only be used once per round.
Flurry of Blows
Your opening attack was only part of a flurry of strikes.
At-Will + Ki, Weapon
Free Action Melee Weapon
Trigger: You hit with a melee attack
Attack: Str or Dex vs AC
Hit: 1D6 damage
Increase damage to 2D6 at 11th level, and 3d6 at 21st level.
Why not just make it auto-damage like the others? As it is in this example, it is strictly inferior to all of the other Striker damage bonuses as it has a chance to miss. You can even change the fluff to "You attack your opponent with a Flurry of Blows, getting in a small jab after distracting him with your initial assault."
And for other ideas from other posters in this topic: things like using d4s for damage and having high [W] powers sounds just terrible. Its almost like everyone is trying to balance the entire Monk class against the weakest options from the weak(er) Strikers. Guess we'd have a new candidate for "weakest Striker" with some of these ideas.
Some ideas:
-Monk unarmed damage, (or at least commonly used Monk weapons) need to be at least d8 damage, if not d10. Some Rogues might get away with d4 daggers, but the heaviest damaging Rogues use d8s, and a Rogue's Sneak Attack is a higher bonus to damage anyway, so it can offset the low damage dice. Other Strikers are throwing around d8s, d10s, d12s, sometimes even higher. Why should Monks be stuck with d4s?
-Monk powers should focus on multiple attacks, like a Ranger's, with a careful eye on balance. There's a reason the Ranger has the highest damage in the game: multiple attacks just about all the time. The Monk can be a very capable Striker if he goes along these lines, and it fits in with his history of Flurry of Blows.
-There NEEDS to be some way to enchant the Monk's fists, and not just through a Paragon Path. Just giving the Monk the suitable +to hit won't cut it. Why use a Monk with his fists when you could take a [insert melee Striker here] with the same to hit bonus and a Bloodclaw weapon?
-I could definitely see different class choices, like a STR/WIS Monk for unarmed brawling, and a DEX/WIS Monk that focuses on Monk weapons and finesse. The unarmed Monk could get a bonus to and perhaps powers for Grabbing opponents, while the weapon master has more powers and maybe bonus damage against enemies he knocks Prone.
-WIS to AC seems like a good choice, if WIS is the primary instead of DEX. Unless you want to see Monks running around in Chain. Perhaps this could be a class feature for the STR/WIS variety of Monk, as the DEX/WIS would be just fine without it.
-I did really like the idea put forth earlier of the Monk being a very mobile Striker. Powers like "Flying Kick" or some kind of Spring Attack analog, so that the Monk is moving all over the place, putting his damage where it is most needed. I can even see a Monk Stance that could let him deliver an OA against a foe that strikes him in melee, or a different one that gives him resistance/evasion bonus against ranged attacks, like the Arrow-catching feats he got back in 3rd.
Why not just make it auto-damage like the others? As it is in this example, it is strictly inferior to all of the other Striker damage bonuses as it has a chance to miss. You can even change the fluff to "You attack your opponent with a Flurry of Blows, getting in a small jab after distracting him with your initial assault."
My reasoning is that the rogue needs combat advantage to get sneak attack, so that damage is limited as to when it can be applied. This FoB damage scales just like the ranger's quarry but doesnt require the monk to mark a particular target for it to work, so theoretically a monk could use an area attack and cherry pick exactly who was going to eat his FoB (or just choose to attack whoever he actually hits). Basically, everyone is treated as the monk's quarry for the purpose of this ability, unlike the ranger's ability, but the drawback is that it requires an attack roll.
One thing i will add though, is that it isnt expended for the round if you miss.
Some ideas:
-Monk unarmed damage, (or at least commonly used Monk weapons) need to be at least d8 damage, if not d10. Some Rogues might get away with d4 daggers, but the heaviest damaging Rogues use d8s, and a Rogue's Sneak Attack is a higher bonus to damage anyway, so it can offset the low damage dice. Other Strikers are throwing around d8s, d10s, d12s, sometimes even higher. Why should Monks be stuck with d4s?
-Monk powers should focus on multiple attacks, like a Ranger's, with a careful eye on balance. There's a reason the Ranger has the highest damage in the game: multiple attacks just about all the time. The Monk can be a very capable Striker if he goes along these lines, and it fits in with his history of Flurry of Blows.
-There NEEDS to be some way to enchant the Monk's fists, and not just through a Paragon Path. Just giving the Monk the suitable +to hit won't cut it. Why use a Monk with his fists when you could take a [insert melee Striker here] with the same to hit bonus and a Bloodclaw weapon?
-I could definitely see different class choices, like a STR/WIS Monk for unarmed brawling, and a DEX/WIS Monk that focuses on Monk weapons and finesse. The unarmed Monk could get a bonus to and perhaps powers for Grabbing opponents, while the weapon master has more powers and maybe bonus damage against enemies he knocks Prone.
-WIS to AC seems like a good choice, if WIS is the primary instead of DEX. Unless you want to see Monks running around in Chain. Perhaps this could be a class feature for the STR/WIS variety of Monk, as the DEX/WIS would be just fine without it.
-I did really like the idea put forth earlier of the Monk being a very mobile Striker. Powers like "Flying Kick" or some kind of Spring Attack analog, so that the Monk is moving all over the place, putting his damage where it is most needed. I can even see a Monk Stance that could let him deliver an OA against a foe that strikes him in melee, or a different one that gives him resistance/evasion bonus against ranged attacks, like the Arrow-catching feats he got back in 3rd.
Agreed on pretty much all accounts. Id like to see:
- Good unarmed damage dice so multiclassing is viable.
- Focus on mobility like the old monk classes.
- Ways to enchant unarmed strike so it can function as a primary weapon.
- Str/Wis and Dex/Wis focused builds.
- Wis to AC as an option instead of Dex, just like the new classes are getting Con to AC. This could be a Ki power source feature like Con is for Primal.
Something to pay attention to, is that since Flurry of Blows would be an extra attack, it would get all the damage bonuses from magic enhancement, feats, and everything else.
That's why I had my version being 1d4, with the option of being used more than once, if you can pull it off.
Now, we come to the issue of powers. A monk must not, under any circumstances, have powers that deal more [W] damage or more damage in general than other striker powers. This is because of how multiclassing works - another striker taking a few monk powers will be better than any other striker. We just saw this with the prototype barbarian. The monk's extra damage must come from a class feature, like every other striker. Much as several rogue powers allow the rogue to set up his sneak attacks, however, a monk's powers can be designed such that they work to assist his class feature.
Thus we come to what I described before. Flurry of Blows being the monk's signature technique from 3.5, it is the best candidate for its bonus damage feature. We should here note that Flurry of Blows should do less damage than Hunter's Quarry or Sneak Attack should it be built to always go off. It also should not cost an action, because that's one less action the monk can use normally if it is. So consider this version of the feature:
Once per round, you can make a basic melee attack as a free action.
If the basic melee attack does 1d8+Str damage, this will be comparable to the damage of Sneak Attack or Hunter's Quarry, while the bonuses to damage accrued from increasing Strength and an increasingly powerful weapon/implement will allow it to keep up at higher tiers.
Rather than weapon group restrictions, have the monk's powers fall into styles, each reflecting a different way of going about being a striker. One school is about single large attacks, one about multiple weaker attacks, and one about infliction of statuses.
Wise Monk: Uses his mastery of the Zen/Ki to defeat his/her enemies. Utilises ranged Force attacks/defenses as a primary style and attack roll/armour class debuffs as a secondary style. Imagine a robed floating guy, shooting balls of force around, stopping attacks towards him as well as exposing weaknesses in defenses and attacks by his unnatural combat style.
Combat Monk: Uses his kung-fu/training/discipline to defeat his/her enemies. Utilises a combination of Physical attacks as a primary style and then as a secondary, immobilising and slow effects. Imagine a traditional kung-fu monk. Strikes against pressure points to slow his enemies out
Like a Striker-Controller.
If the basic melee attack does 1d8+Str damage, this will be comparable to the damage of Sneak Attack or Hunter's Quarry, while the bonuses to damage accrued from increasing Strength and an increasingly powerful weapon/implement will allow it to keep up at higher tiers.
Too strong, IMO. The ranger gets an extra d6 damage per round, but a basic attack from the monk would add an extra d8 + Str + feat damage + enhancement bonus damage + etc. Theres too much stuff that would stack onto a melee basic.
Rather than weapon group restrictions, have the monk's powers fall into styles, each reflecting a different way of going about being a striker. One school is about single large attacks, one about multiple weaker attacks, and one about infliction of statuses.
Id like to see something like this. One build moves guys around, another debuffs targets, one adds elemental damage, ect....
The reason I suggested +3 d4 offhand was because the Spiked Gauntlets in AV are +2 d6 offhand weapons. I would prefer that "new" weapons not outdate older weapons. Plus way should Monks get a magical longsword for free.
If possible, I would like the "unarmed" Monk's weapon list to look like this:
This is a class where I would like to see all simulationism cast aside and see a structure modeled after Chinese cinema (leaf dancing if you will.) The old Monk failed to capture this tenet and got the short end of the stick with 3.0 and 3.5's cling to a simulist system.
I'm really excited to see what WotC does with it. So far 4E has impressed me. Let's hope all future products keep the quality of this early game design.
The way to get all weapons equal, is to not use weapon damage. Making all powers be "Implement" and have monk weapons and Unarmed Strikes be Implements works best, I think.
Then why even have weapons at all? Why should a Monk use his fists when they are exactly the same as a staff, or nunchaku, or that pillow he took from the Inn? Plus if these are suddenly Implements, we need the Monk to attack the secondary defenses, as he doesn't get proficiency bonus anymore. Making the Monk's powers weapon-independent just means that all Monks will be using the exact same weapon: the one that works best on basic attacks, or has the Defending feature, not having different builds with different preferred weapons.
Handing out basic attacks is VERY dangerous. The die size of the basic attack doesn't make any difference. If people could get a feat that lets them do a d2+bonuses basic attack as a minor action, everyone would take it, as that +bonuses is somewhere up in the 30s, so who cares about the size of the dice you have to roll. It is much easier to just give the Monk the same bonus damage all the regular Strikers have: d6 per tier. The Rogue only has a higher bonus damage because he is restricted to weaker weapons and slightly lower damage powers. (the heaviest Sneak Attack-capable weapon is a d8, while other Strikers can get d10/d12/2d6)
Then why even have weapons at all? Why should a Monk use his fists when they are exactly the same as a staff, or nunchaku, or that pillow he took from the Inn? Plus if these are suddenly Implements, we need the Monk to attack the secondary defenses, as he doesn't get proficiency bonus anymore. Making the Monk's powers weapon-independent just means that all Monks will be using the exact same weapon: the one that works best on basic attacks, or has the Defending feature, not having different builds with different preferred weapons.
It worked for the Druid.
It worked for the Druid.
Yes, spell-based Controllers are exactly the same as melee Strikers. I don't know what I was thinking.
EDIT: I am, of course, referring to the Wildshape powers.
Having a hard time with the concept of someone kicking you in the face with Wisdom.
It's not about hitting hard, it's about hitting where it hurts.
- Strength adds brute force.
- Wisdom spots weak points and openings.
- Dexterity steadies your hand and guides your aim.
- Intelligence is knowing where and when to aim -situational awareness- or how to handle esoteric forces.
- Constitution is the resilience to channel the dark forces better, or such.
- Charisma is doing it by sheer force of will.
- Lack of weapon: Making them need to use 'monk weapon' won't work for people who wish a unarmed fighter... so how do you deal with the lack of damage dice and weapon profiency of unarmed? (Possibly simply up the damage dice of unarmed and + prof for monks, simple enough).
For the armed monk, Melee weapon attacks using Dexterity versus Armor Class. Like the rogues these weapon powers might require use of monk special weapons,
For the unarmed monk builds, Melee touch attacks with Wisdom versus Fortitude or Reflex, maybe even Will, defenses, using set dice damage. The Monk's belt might make a return as an Implement for these powers. Some kind of ki focus item, anyway.
What do you think the Monk's attack Stat will be?
I'm hoping for WIS, to separate it from the Martial Strikers.
Here's a question:
What do you think the Monk's attack Stat will be?
I'm hoping for WIS, to separate it from the Martial Strikers.
I am as well, but mostly because I want as much fantasy as possible in the Ki power source. Wrestling should be martial, but pressure points, secret mystic techniques, swords shattering when they hit you, and other sorts of craziness are what I want to see in the monk. I do not want the monk to be "unarmed rogue" or "unarmed ranger" like the "patch" quick version that was put up on the web (use TWFing ranger as the base, give them +3 1d8 unarmed strikes and +3 armor while unarmored; I totally didn't like that for a "monk", but for a martial unarmed character it's fine).
I want Ki to be mystical, and I want Ki to be broad enough to not only be Asian.
I suggest a better path. I know most people want the Monk to be truly unarmed, but we really need to get past that. 4E just doesn't work that way. Players rely on magic weapons and a class that has no need of one will, by its very nature, be overpowered.
Therefore we give him a weapon without really giving him a weapon. We call these magical "weapons" Handwraps. The Monk simply takes a magically imbued scrap of leather or cloth and wraps it around his fists. They add an attack bonus. They have magical attributes. They do additional damage on a crit. They offer each Monk a choice in these attributes. In addition, the Monk is technically unarmed. Sure, in the mechanics of the game, the Monk is really using a weapon, but, to the character in the game world, he is killing with his fists and feet.
Let's remember what we really enjoy about the Monk: the idea that this guy flies around the room, knocking people out without a weapon, not the mechanics of unarmed strikes. We want a class that is playable, not overpowered, and makes sense. We should be willing to sacrifice the mechanical aspect of unarmed strikes in favor of a great class that can still enjoy the thrill of an awesome weapon cache in a dungeon, yet apear not to have noticed.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
I was looking at some of the items in the Player's Handbook and saw that many of the items don't match the monk (like shields, greaves, and gauntlets) and many don't have a bonus. The first part could be fixed limiting the type of magic item used and including more of the allowed types. This is in essence the exact same thing that Lord Dreadman was suggesting with wraps, only they'd be in the magic item section as opposed to the weapons section. The drawback to this is that the monks are still short a proficiency bonus, but that could be class featured into unarmed strike.
The second problem with using other magic items to calculate the bonus, the problem that many items already written don't have a bonus, could be fixed with some simple math. (I know, no one likes using math in D&D). All items have a level and the standard bonus is +1 for every five levels (or 1+(lvl-1)/5 rounded down in mathese). If this is too confusing, that's +1 for lvl's 1-5, +2 for 6-10, etc. This would allow the monk to wear first tier Bracers of Defense and get a +2 bonus to attacks.
I also remember that several posters have stated that if monks don't get a bonus to their attacks, they would have to target non-AC defenses. This is also a viable option since WotC has stated that they plan on making the ki classes very distinct from the martial classes. I could see ki being described as a life energy that fortifies the body. This would allow ki attacks to be based on CON, which would help the unarmored monk survive in melee battle. It would also make sense for attacks based on energy following from the monk's body to be more impaired by the body of the target than the armor of the target, hence fortitude and reflex defenses would be the main targets.
This line of thinking, however, still lacks bonuses, since other classes still get implement bonuses. Again, I feel the monk could use bracers as an implement, but with the flavor of ki that leads to the non-AC attacks, perhaps other implements will be invented. Maybe a bracelet of magical charms or a Pendant of Feng Shuei. Even though I wouldn't like it, I think I remember hearing about magical tattoos appearing in the Adventurers Vault 2 and I could see them being used as a monk's implement for channeling his ki. (All of the sudden I have images of monks looking like Maori warriors which seems really awesome.)
Anyway, that's my two cents on the discussion (or $2 based on the length). Sorry if I bore anyone to sleep.
I want to see them get energy blasts and no MCing into Warlock or Wizard or anything like that necessary. Clerics (and to a lesser extent, Swordmages and Paladins) get to pick and choose melee or ranged or even both and I'd like monks to get the same. I'd also like to see a consolidated source of enhancement (Paladins and Clerics require up to two, a weapon and/or an implement; Swordmages treat the same thing as both a weapon and an implement).
There's probably more (especially when I'm working on a Monk homebrew right now), but that's off the top of my head.
Also, just giving a static bonus depending on the level of the item is almost the same as just giving the Monk a static bonus based on his level. The Monk loses the ability to customise his weapons. To make things clear, a rogue could pick up BOTH the bracers AND an awesome weapon. Eventually, characters will fill every slot and the Monk will be lacking. Take a look at magic weapons; they do not just grant bonuses to attacks.
A large part of customization takes place in magic item selection. This is why Cloth armor is introduced. In prior editions the Monk didn't wear armor, but you can bet he'll be wearing cloth in 4E. Why? Because the loss of magic armor takes away from customization and the power level of a class. By the same token, Monks MUST have a way to customize their attacks and add abilities to current powers.
When a player brags about a magic item he has, nine times out of ten he is talking about his weapon or armor. These are fundamental parts of the game, and I really think the argument against them is silly. It comes down to fluff that you feel should be reflected in mechanics, when it can't and shouldn't be.
I hope that doesn't come across condescendingly. I don't mean it to. I just want to move on to mechanics other than this. It just feels open and shut to me. By the way, that power with the You're already dead. flavor text was awesome. I laughed for five minutes. I doubt players will delay that damage very often, but it is still way flavorful. Good job.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
Yeah, I thought about just using bracers or gloves or boots too, but the fact remains: when you use those as weapons, you are, in effect, losing a slot. No matter how you look at it, if a class doesn't use weapons or implements, that class has lost an entire magic item slot.
Very good point. It does seem obvious that the monk will need some sort of weapon or implement besides standard gear. Even though hand wraps over gloves would seem awkward, making a class that can't fill an item slot is not wise. I can't see a way to make a monk without introducing new monk weapons (or implements) or requiring them to use weapons that already exist.
Of those options, I think I prefer the implement route. I still would like to see monks doing damage based on powers instead of weapons. I think monk implements should be something small that wouldn't take a standard equipment slot, but isn't necessarily held in the hand (else wise, how could the monk do a quivering palm strike or use a soft fist technique that damages internal organs). The implement could be a talisman or something kept pressed to the skin to help open the flow of chakra. Although I feel that tattoos contradict the traditional idea of monks keeping their bodies pure, I know that not everyone feels the same. The movie Bulletproof Monk even used a magical tattoo as a source of power for the monk. A magical tattoo doesn't have to take up an equipment slot, but with their inclusion in the Adventurers Vault 2 I suppose that would take away another possible magic item if magical tattoos were implements. I guess my monk is going to have to use his cilice belt as an implement.
I agree that this should be very open and shut, but every time I get ready to close my mind on the subject, another doubt opens the door. I suppose the problem is that regardless of the final choice, some people will be upset about it not meeting their expectations. I guess that is why I am glad I am not a game designer. I love the concept of this class, but getting the concept to mesh well with both mechanics and expectations is no small order. Good luck WotC (Just please don't abandon this project because getting the right mesh is too difficult.)
Prayer Beads - +4 proficiency, 1d4 damage for unarmed strikes (On par with Rogues with daggers)
Hand wraps- +3 proficiency, 1d8 damage for unarmed strikes (On par with a long sword).
Magic Tattoos- +2 proficiency, 1d12 damage.
Then various types could give different different effects like high crit and what not. Just a rough idea.
I thus think the whole argument of increasing their damage is moot. It would be nice if they had a respectable basic unarmed weapon damage (e.g. d8) but I dont think it is necessary if their debuffing powers are amped up.
I could imagine quite a few controlling powers that would fit nicely into the monk concept:
Stunning stike- where the monk hits a pressure point and prevents an enemy from taking a standard action until the start of their next round
Inner thigh Thai kick- the monk strikes the delicate nerves on the inner thigh and immobilises the enemy until the start of their next round.
Clinch- the monk grabs the enemy and pummels them with knee strikes until the enemy can break free of the grab. (nice sustaining power)
Trip- the monk knocks/throws the enemy to the ground and then stomps on them with a bonus appropriate to the situation.
Elbow to the Temple- the monk strikes the enemy to the temple with their elbow causing the enemy to be dazed and blinded untill the start of their next round.
etc (level appropriate ofcourse)
This way the monk can prove useful on themselves because they are continuously stacking the odds in their favour (especially good against solos). But they also provide good conditions for which all allies can take advantage of.
I see the flurry of blows as a good idea but more of a power to be used at higher levels. Where they can strike several times for increased damage of double controlling affects (e.g. close burst 1 where all adjacent enemies are swept off their feet by a low spinning kick).
I see the monk being divided into 2 main archetypes: Martial Monk and Zen Monk.
The martial monk would fill the secondary roll of a defender due to their increased toughness. That is they spend considerably amount of time training to condition themselves against pain and thus are willing to stand toe-to-toe with an enemy until they buckle (i.e. marking ability???, damage resistance???). I think of the Brother Justice character in R.A.Salvatores novel "The Demon Awakens" or bad Lee in "The One".
The zen monk, in comparison, fills the secondary roll of striker. That is they are wise enough to know that it is where and how they strike that is more effective than brawn stregth. They therefore can channel their ki explosively into their strikes thus giving them additional damage (+ wis??).
Personally I have no problem with the handwraps acting as the monks equivalent to a magic weapon. Depending on the effect you could fluff it up easily enough (e.g. broken glass on wraps, brass knuckles, kobutan).
I do think it is paramount to the whole monk concept and mechanic that they get a bonus to their defences. Monks walk around in no armour because they trust their defences from letting them get hit. Whether this is a bonus equivalent to Wis because they see the greater pattern underneath enemies attacks or pretenatural reflexes I dont know. I do know that their defence should be increased. It would also balance out having low W damage if Wizards choose to go that way.
As for weapons (e.g. staff, prayer beads), I think they should be limted to only weapons that do the same low W damage as their fists. That way players can choose to use a weapon for flavour (including magic weapons) or for minor differences (proficiency bonus or damage- d4 vs d6). The proficiency bonus of a weapon can be offset by a monk class feature of unarmed proficiency.
I think the preoccupation with damage is a mistake and consequence of previous editions of D&D. In 4th ed, effects that stack upon damage are much more useful and thus should not be forgotten about. It is like saying a feylock is weaker than a infernal-lock or a star-lock because they do less absolute damage.
What about leather/cloth strips over entire body, not just hands. They would be worn under all other gear (boots, gloves, robes, etc...) and not take any of the slots needed for other magic items, just count as weapon slot.
Sutras/holy text strips as implements? That could certiantly be used by Ki leaders/controllers...
I think I like it! It fits for enough "Ki" concepts that it can funtion like the other power sources unique implements. (wands for arcane, totems for Primal, holy symbols for Divine)