Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 qualnias Jan 11, 2009 3:41:30	Okay, I know this particular topic has been beaten to death like a dead horse, but... I would like to toss my two cents in there. Last I checked Wizards hasn't even started working on the monk class... Admitted that there is a KI power source... And MIGHT put them in there... Monks will NOT be martial strikers, why? Because in 3.x they sucked at striking, and everyone who's played a monk knows that they can NEVER compete with the damage output of a fighter. (Even one that still uses a longsword.) And that is because they have too much other utility. Granted, fighters don't deal damage anymore, they have moved off to the role they should have had, of defender... But, then again, we all picked fighter from some time or another, and we loved playing bow users, or dagger throwers, or oversized bastard sword (Katana) fighters, that, with the right feats, could dish out rediculous amounts of damage (I did 198 damage in one round to the big baddy in a campaign at level 17) with my Masamune. (Just large Katana) Briliant energy, speed, icy burst... Nothing special. Enough about them... MONKS... Personally, I can see them being controllers. Not in the sense that they are the AoE minion killer, like the wizard is, and other controller classes most likely will be... I can see them picking 1-3 bad guys and shutting them down. Standard action to make a burst one, all effected are prone, shift 4 (Or wis, or something like that) burst 1, weakened. Something like that... An at-will attack that stuns. I don't see them being martial strikers, as I've seen a lot of people make them, by making a two weapon fighting ranger, and convert it into a monk, add some rogue skillz, insta 3.x monk in 4e, only better. Every-one has to realize that 4.e is a guideline, like every other D&D before it was a guideline... If the "Monk" class comes out and it's a controller, but that is a perversion to everything you wanted a monk to be, then make your own. Ask your DM if you can create your own powers for your monk. Use a rogue as a template, fill it out with a ranger, or vise versa, whatever floats your boat. What I want to see, will not happen. I really liked playing monks, even though they sucked, because without trying my AC was higher than the fighter who was trying to have AC, and higher than the rogue... But I loved the tounge of the sun and the moon, I loved the diamond soul, perfect body, timeless body all that cool stuff just screamed MONK to me, from all those books I've read, all the stories I've heard, and all the D&D I've been playing (Only 22) since 2.0! I love monks. I think making them a martial striker (As everyone seems intent on doing,) Is a waste of time. Monks were a LOT more than that. And, to some extent, a lot LESS... They weren't meant to get in and kill things... But, if you couldn't do something, a lot of groups thought that monks were useless, because they couldn't "Taunt" so their high AC meant nothing, they couldn't deal damage, so... in combat they were completely useless, (Especially around levels 1-5 and 16-20) It's those middle levels that they are kinda useful. So, what I am trying to get at, is a Ki based monk would be great, even going so far as to say they are a RANGED Ki striker. Or Controller. Or whatever... Well I woulda said Gygaxx wanted... But... I can't do that anymore. So... If the "Official" monk doesn't suit yer purposes, just make one yerself, and make your Martial striker monks, people! Do whatever makes you happy. I'm sure that I'll get the monk I've always wanted, in 4.e... A monk that actually has a PURPOSE... Even if it's not quite the way I wanted it... Quivering palm and all. On a side note (Still talking about monks...) I think, if wizards were to do it correct... They would make a new role specifically for monks. But, that's just me. Monks really are out there. And they haven't ever really fit into a role. --Qualnias.
#2 overlordheian Jan 11, 2009 3:44:52	Probably very accurate melee status-mongers. The problem is, most Monk abilities were passive and gained as they level up. Which doesn't mesh easily with the current powers system.
#3 qualnias Jan 11, 2009 3:58:15	Unfortunately, that's very true. I just look foreward to playing a "Monk" that, when battle begins, sits down, meditates, and all of the sudden, starts bashing people with his Ki kickassness. Perhaps being a controller in the "manipulating the battlefield" aspect. Who knows. --Qualnias.
#4 decivre Jan 11, 2009 4:51:07	I agree that the monk should be a striker or controller, and cause special effects as he hits and such... but in that same vein, I think that the monk should be split into two classes. One being the "pressure points paralyze and stuff" sort of monk that the class became down the line in previous editions, the other being a "I hit very very hard with my fists, and pwn crowds" sort of monk that they often started as. That one could simply be a Martial Artist if they need to split the classes, but I think they could easily just make them two different builds for the same class. Then the class would be Striker, with Controller as a secondary if it went with one build, and Defender as a secondary if it went with the other... me wantsy.
#5 Novacat Jan 11, 2009 7:31:32	I think the OP takes his monks way too seriously. You seem somewhat confused, because this makes no sense whatsoever: Monks will NOT be martial strikers, why? Because in 3.x they sucked at striking
#6 thax Jan 11, 2009 10:46:28	sucked at striking... Lets see, flurry of blows, at level 20, 5 hits (three at max to hit) doing 2d10 damage, has damage reduction 10/magic and can dimension step to the enemy instantly. Not a striker, really? The thing about the Monk is, as been mentioned above, that most of her class abilities are passive, and not really something that effects in game play most of the time. Immune to diseases, poisons, never aging, stuff like that. Perhaps the lower level halfling Monk had some trouble, and had to use a weapon for damage for about 5 levels, but then she passes the rest of the classes in basic damage with just her hands. Perhaps you mean that it wasn't enough compared to what the wizard could do?
#7 vaalingrade_ashland_02 Jan 11, 2009 11:13:15	I don't get why we're supposed to care about the stupid things 3e did in reguards to the monk. We stand a chance of getting a good monk instead.
#8 thax Jan 11, 2009 12:52:05	I am hoping. Without the BAB having so many hits, I hope for some other mechanic to represent the flurry of blows, instead of making it a power. (as in something that can be used with his other powers instead of an at will basic attack)
#9 Dereliction Jan 11, 2009 13:18:25	I'm sort of keen on the idea of a Monk being a melee-range controller, capable of delivering smaller amounts of damage and status effects in burst attacks--thereby taking out crowds of minions and applying control to non-minions within the melee scope. The bursts would simulate a series of very rapid attacks to multiple enemies. That said, the idea of them having better control over attack delivery (i.e., not affecting allies within the burst radius of attacks) would supply them an advantage not available to wizard styled controllers, for the most part, and make up for their requirement of being within melee range. It'll be interesting to see what they conjure up, no matter the result.
#10 kikkoman Jan 11, 2009 14:14:18	I figure this would be dependent on what the other Ki classes do Ninja is likely to be one, and something like Ninja sounds like a Striker Samurai or Kensai is something that comes up when people think of Defenders. what options are there for Ki leaders, controllers? One being the "pressure points paralyze and stuff" sort of monk that the class became down the line in previous editions, the other being a "I hit very very hard with my fists, and pwn crowds" I think it could be contained in one class, ranger gets to be Ranged and Melee all in one package too. Split it like that, with a name like "soft style (internal martial arts)" and "hard style". Have it as a key word for powers. whatever the monk is in 4e, I hope I can hadouken with them (or maybe kamehameha in Epic tier...)
#11 mouthymerc Jan 11, 2009 14:19:09	I could definitely see the monk being a close range controller with abilities that affect many targets like close bursts or that inflict conditions like knock downs or slows and such. Secondary role could be striker.
#12 salla Jan 11, 2009 14:19:24	There is a 99 percent chance Monk will be a Ki Striker. Datum: When asked if the Monk would be a Martial Striker, the devs responded "You're half right." Datum: The devs have stated that we have seen all the Martial classes they intend to print. Deduction: The Monk cannot be Martial; therefore, it must be a Striker for first Datum to be true. Assumption: The Ki power source is the only source stated in the PHB that makes any sense for the Monk, with the REMOTELY possible exception of psionic. Conclusion: The Monk will be either a Ki Striker or a Psionic Striker; with Ki being far more likely.
#13 z64dan Jan 12, 2009 4:21:59	I don't understand why Monks are so violent. I thought monks usually took a vow of silence and hung out in monasteries all day?
#14 furryhowler Jan 12, 2009 6:10:22	I don't understand why Monks are so violent. I thought monks usually took a vow of silence and hung out in monasteries all day? Its for the same reason Monks were "lawful"; they were designed for a system that doesnt reflect reality :D They are still one of my favourite classes though, primarily because they go off at a tangent compared to the normal "gotta get me +5 stompy monster splatter of doom and a pile of gold" mentality with added nice depth to that long forgotten part of the game....role playing ;)
#15 WhiteHarness Jan 12, 2009 9:24:42	...because without trying my AC was higher than the fighter who was trying to have AC This was what I hated about monks more than anything. I hope it doesn't return. I'm tired of the lightly-armoured/unarmoured classes having higher ACs than the heavily-armoured classes.
#16 Steely_Dan Jan 12, 2009 9:30:50	They are still one of my favourite classes Me too, I'm still regretful I never got to play a Grand Master of Flowers! As Salla said, the Monk is all but confirmed as a Ki Striker. I could see the Sohei as a Ki Defender, not that I want the Ki (soul) power source to be the catch-all for all Asian/Oriental classes.
#17 qualnias Jan 13, 2009 5:44:20	I think the OP takes his monks way too seriously. You seem somewhat confused, because this makes no sense whatsoever: Technically, I do take my monks very seriously. I've loved them for a VERY long time. My original favorite was monk, and still is. I've played everything. What I meant by that statement, was even with 5 blows (6 if you cheated like I did) You still had a static +12 to hit +4 strength (Unless you upped it with magic or stat placement) or +4 dex (Same as strength.) and that was it... You had very little chance to hit... Where as my level 16 fighter, had a weapon that bypassed regular armor, I swung 6 times in a round, and I hit an average of 4 of those every round. Dealing 3d6+22 damage, each time. Much better than the 2d10+4 (Str or more if you have magic) +6 mighty fists. And even then, because the to hit was so low, you didn't have a prayer of hitting anything more than a minion... Well... One out of every 20 die throws... So... Maybe 3 times an encounter. In my personal experience, playing a monk, (Especially with my DM's... who seem to hate giving players enough money to buy anything useful... ) was pretty useless... You couldn't hit anything, or generate enough "Threat" that the DM would deem you a target. So my 50+ AC did nothing for me, and my paltry damage almost never got used. Monks will not be martial strikers, that was stated by devs. It's not just a personal opinion. Ki strikers or something 'like' it is what they will come up with. Prolly a hybrid controller/striker. Enough exploits to deal AoE stuff, and status effects, with enough raw power they can take out big baddies too. Whatever they come up with, I will be all of; astonished/surprised/astounded/and dissapointed. --Qualnias.
#18 That_Blasted_Somoflange Jan 13, 2009 5:59:51	I am hoping. Without the BAB having so many hits, I hope for some other mechanic to represent the flurry of blows, instead of making it a power. (as in something that can be used with his other powers instead of an at will basic attack) I don't know why, but I'm expecting that flurry of blows is going to be how the monk does extra damage as a striker.
#19 Lechteron Jan 13, 2009 14:46:37	Maybe their at-wills will be relatively weak compared to other classes but they can use flurry of blows to string them together into a combination of attacks. That'd satisfy the crowd that wants them to be strikers and the crowd that wants them to be melee controllers while giving them a cool new mechanic and it'd make humans and half-elves particularly effective monks which would be interesting. Oh, and perhaps intstead of getting encounter powers they get new at-wills. So they wouldn't have the middle ground they'd have a bunch of weak attacks and then devastating single use attacks (Dailies).
#20 qualnias Jan 13, 2009 14:49:26	I don't know why, but I'm expecting that flurry of blows is going to be how the monk does extra damage as a striker. I would be willing to bet that in order for monks to have flurry of blows in 4e... It would be an encounter power. And it most likely wouldn't be single target, unelss you got it around level 10 or so... Making it 3[W] or something... I just can't see it as an at will... (Even if it was, they would have to do somethng like 2[W] and 4[W] at level 21, but even that would be a littl weak.) Personally, I liked FoB, but, when I realized that there was no way my monk was gonna be able to hit people with like... 40 AC except with a 20... It made my playing a monk kinda weak. It's really unfortunate that monks won't have all the 'utility' they had in 3.x. No tongue of the sun and the moon, no diamond soul... All that crap... it's all gone. Never to be seen of again. (Unless they do some utilities and whatnot as atwill, like many of the rogue utilities.) --Qualnias.
#21 bjornfellhanded Jan 13, 2009 15:19:42	Personally I see Monks would use Stance powers heavily. With the possiblity of having Encounter Stances that last only a few Rounds. I will admit that this is not likely for Stances have so far been Daily powers. But it is a method that can be used to get many of the different flavors of styles/versions of the Monks that was out for 3/3.5.
#22 anubis_reynard Jan 13, 2009 15:29:06	Personally I see Monks would use Stance powers heavily. With the possiblity of having Encounter Stances that last only a few Rounds. I will admit that this is not likely for Stances have so far been Daily powers. But it is a method that can be used to get many of the different flavors of styles/versions of the Monks that was out for 3/3.5. An encounter power with (Save sustains)?
#23 salla Jan 13, 2009 15:36:40	Flurry of Blows = Twin Strike/Dual Strike. I'd bet money that'll be one of the Monk At-Wills. Much like the Ranger does, it'll probably have its share of powers as it advances through levels that give it multiple attacks. I'm almost thinking it'll play like a rogue/ranger hybrid; the ranger's multi-attacking, but with more mobility with its utilities (like some of the rogue's super-leaping/shifting utility powers).
#24 brotherjgizmo Jan 13, 2009 15:55:48	4e monk (I guess will be like this) 1) Armor Cloth armor proficiency only 2) Survibability Add a class feature to increase AC (either the same as we've seen for Prima Characters or maybe even adding double the modifier value) Also high HP compared to other classes. MAybe even a temporary hit point gaining/stacking mechanism or attacks that auto heal 3) Weapon Unarmed only (maybe staffs and other "martial-arts" weapons) 4) How to make an unarmed striker viable increase damage dice and proficiency or make the majority of their power be multiple attacks 5) Mechanic to do Striker Damage (aka. HQ's and Warlocks Curse) (Unlikely: Since Unarmed attacks are low dice to begin with maybe everytime you get a 4 on a d4 you get to do xd4 damage per tiers or level) (More Likely) something along the lines of SA if not a complete copy (They could also) MAke their Striker damage feature be that every time that an enemy lets you do an OA against them instead of your basic attack you do automatic xdx damage (or extra xdx damage if you hit with the OA) 6) Attacks: I expect a lot of self-healing, multiple attacks against a target, extra damage with CA, multiple Stances and incredibly high mobility
#25 griffonheart Jan 13, 2009 16:06:30	I just need to jump in here and say that I love the idea of the monk as controller. The devs have all but stated that monks would be ki strikers, but that was a long time ago. Here's hoping that that has changed. Either way I think I am going to take a crack at designing a melee controller in the monkish vein. It is just too cool a concept to pass up. As a side note I am reading Plague of Spells by Bruce R. Cordell and the main character is a monk who acts in a pretty controllerish manner so far. Might be a good place to mine for hints.
#26 qualnias Jan 14, 2009 2:36:24	I love the idea of a monk controller... What I would like to build, if possible... Is kinda like a meditationist. Well... More or less a psionisist... But... That's cool too... Sit down right after the battle starts, and the minions start flying everywhich way. If that's not a viable option, I guess I gotta go back to playing 2nd ed... But... My group doesn't allow us to play psionisists, because they are overpowered... Maybe just someone who does a lot of burst damage. High mobilities, high AC's, and lots of bursts. --Qualnias.
#27 WhiteHarness Jan 14, 2009 9:15:38	As long as the monk's Armour Class is significantly lower than the Fighter's or Paladin's, I don't care what the rest of the class looks like.
#28 Steely_Dan Jan 14, 2009 9:26:30	As long as the monk's Armour Class is significantly lower than the Fighter's or Paladin's, I don't care what the rest of the class looks like. I thought one of the points of 4th Ed was not to have too much disparity between classes/characters of a certain level (just like monsters etc)?
#29 qualnias Jan 14, 2009 21:37:16	I believe his issue is, what is the point of building a decidedly defender class, when you can build a controller/striker whatever it's going to be, that has roughly the same HP, and more armor? I dunno if that's right, but, yea... --Qualnias.
#30 WhiteHarness Jan 15, 2009 4:52:22	I like playing knights in shining armour. It's no fun to play a knight in shining armour in a game that punishes heavy armour wearers while giving all the good stuff that should belong to the knight (high armour class and hit points, etc.) to the Jackie Chan clone. I'd rather the monk didn't steal the fighter's/paladin's thunder this time around. I think the monk's AC should hover around the same as that of the barbarian, i.e. about 13-15 at 1st level, and so on...
#31 drevnor Jan 15, 2009 5:38:39	I really think the monks are going to have at least as good ac as rogues and might even be up towards defender range. You really must not like the swordmage much? His AC is typically above the Fighter/Paladin.
#32 tafkamhokie Jan 16, 2009 14:16:31	Technically, I do take my monks very seriously. I've loved them for a VERY long time. My original favorite was monk, and still is. I've played everything. What I meant by that statement, was even with 5 blows (6 if you cheated like I did) You still had a static +12 to hit +4 strength (Unless you upped it with magic or stat placement) or +4 dex (Same as strength.) and that was it... You had very little chance to hit... Where as my level 16 fighter, had a weapon that bypassed regular armor, I swung 6 times in a round, and I hit an average of 4 of those every round. Dealing 3d6+22 damage, each time. Much better than the 2d10+4 (Str or more if you have magic) +6 mighty fists. And even then, because the to hit was so low, you didn't have a prayer of hitting anything more than a minion... Well... One out of every 20 die throws... So... Maybe 3 times an encounter. In my personal experience, playing a monk, (Especially with my DM's... who seem to hate giving players enough money to buy anything useful... ) was pretty useless... You couldn't hit anything, or generate enough "Threat" that the DM would deem you a target. So my 50+ AC did nothing for me, and my paltry damage almost never got used. --Qualnias. FWIW, the monk in my last 3.5e campaign was THE arse-kicker of the party. A well-built monk can most definitely be an insanely powerful striker in 3e...at least at higher levels. The real problem with the monk is they don't start to get warmed up until 8th or 9th level or so. Brief synopsis: Githzerai Monk 14 (ECL 16) HP 129 (14d8+56) AC 39 (+8 Dex, +7 Wis, +2 dodge, +3 monk, +4 intertial armor, +2 natural, +3 deflection), touch 37, flat footed 29 Saves: F+18, R+22, W+21, Improved Evasion, SR24 [Commentary - not the greatest for hp, but AC and saves made the monk virtually impossible to harm] Unarmed Attacks: +22/+22/+22/+17 melee (4d6+13 plus 1d6 frost), unarmed strikes are considered magic and lawful for purposes of overcoming DR Stunning Fist 15/day (Fort DC 24) So four attacks that deal an average of 30.5 hp of damage each. Add in a potion of bless weapon to overcome Good DR, a weapon capsule of ghost blight to overcome incorporeal, and some silversheen to get through Silver DR and that covers all the bases except for cold iron, adamantine (which Monks get eventually anyway) and epic. [Commentary - even as the party was nearing 16th-18th level, not a whole lot of monsters had an AC much above 30. And if they did, the bard would start up a +4 bardic music to help insure everyone could hit. On four attacks, hitting three times was a near certainty] A few key magic items / feats are required to get there: Quicksilver boots: 2/day move up to your speed as a swift action (allows for a move followed by a full attack action) Permanent Greater Magic Fang (CL20)...which makes the unarmed strike +5 and thus elegible for a lesser energy assault crystal Improved Natural Attack (plus a monk's belt) boosts the base damage to 4d6 Power Attack plus Armbands of Might allow for a continuous -2 to attack for +4 to damage And never mind the party's bard was VERY fond of the spell Haste...so more often than not it was 5 attacks for around 150 hp of damage per round. For sheer damage output on a regular basis, no one else in the party could consistently keep up. Sure, the wizard and cleric could unload with a disintegrate or harm...but make the save and the damage on both of those drops considerably. Toward the end of the campaign, nothing....nothing....lasted more than 2 rounds given the monk's undivided attention. Heck, I was even planning to use that against the party (I was the DM for the game). The final BBEG of the campaign cast limited wish to bestow a -7 penalty to one save, then hit the monk with a quickened dominate person. But the monk managed to roll a 12 and that was still good enough to make the save even at -7. I really thought I was on the way to a TPK with the monk wiping everyone out. Alas.