Since Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium has be readded to the release schedule I have been looking for it on Amazon.com for pre-order, but it is not avaialble. Any idea why? Will this be corrected before release?
Answered back in July 18th's Rule of Three. The book will only be available through bricks-and-mortar gaming stores, not online retailers like Amazon.
So here's a case where we can't go the easy route: it has to be the friendly local gaming store. But for my case, that store isn't all that local. That's my main beef: there aren't enough of these FLGSs.
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My point is that their support of local small retailers is archaic and a disservice to the vast majority of their customers. Thus the getting their heads out of their rectums comment. I am a fan of supporting local business when it makes sense. In a down economy making your customers pay more for your product than they normally would have to is asinine. Now if they had released it to only FLGSs and it had a price point around $20, then I would totally support the move even for the inconvenience of the time it takes to go to the store as opposed to having it show up in my mailbox.
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-->My point is that their support of local small retailers is archaic and a disservice to the vast majority of their customers. Thus the getting their heads out of their rectums comment. I am a fan of supporting local business when it makes sense. In a down economy making your customers pay more for your product than they normally would have to is asinine. Now if they had released it to only FLGSs and it had a price point around $20, then I would totally support the move even for the inconvenience of the time it takes to go to the store as opposed to having it show up in my mailbox.
No, I disagree, and find that somewhat of an offensive comment towards WotC, their customers, and their retailers. The local business needs more support, not less, in this down economy. This sort of economy is what could kill the local businesses and favour Amazon, if they don't recieve support from publishers like WotC. This is a great idea, and I only lament that I'll have to go out of my way to work harder to get this book – but if you really want it delivered, I'm sure you could find a way (there are several retailers that sell products you're only supposed to find in FLGSs, such as Game Day books and such).
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My point is that their support of local small retailers is archaic and a disservice to the vast majority of their customers. Thus the getting their heads out of their rectums comment. I am a fan of supporting local business when it makes sense. In a down economy making your customers pay more for your product than they normally would have to is asinine. Now if they had released it to only FLGSs and it had a price point around $20, then I would totally support the move even for the inconvenience of the time it takes to go to the store as opposed to having it show up in my mailbox.
+1 to all of this.
On the other hand, bricks-and-mortar gaming stores that also have an online store exist, so it ought to be possible to get the book "in your mailbox", just not via Amazon.
Actually, it occurs to me now that my first post might have given the wrong impression. It's not that all retailers are being barred from selling this product online, it's just that the big online-only retailers such as Amazon won't be selling it. Also, big bookstore chains (if there are any still left in the US?) won't be selling it, even in their bricks-and-mortar stores. But FLGSs that have an online store won't be prevented from selling the product online, AFAIK.
No, I disagree, and find that somewhat of an offensive comment towards WotC, their customers, and their retailers. The local business needs more support, not less, in this down economy. This sort of economy is what could kill the local businesses and favour Amazon, if they don't recieve support from publishers like WotC. This is a great idea, and I only lament that I'll have to go out of my way to work harder to get this book – but if you really want it delivered, I'm sure you could find a way (there are several retailers that sell products you're only supposed to find in FLGSs, such as Game Day books and such).
It is meant to be somewhat offensive to WotC. What is offensive to their customers and retailers is what they have done here. They have taken a book that I could have bought for $19.70, and made me pay $26.95 for it. Even the 20% off I can get at my FLGS is still $21.56 pre-tax. Whatever their intent, the end result is the consumer is screwed.
Now, like I said above if they offered it to FLGSs for the same wholesale price as they give it to Amazon for and told them they had to sell it for $19.70 then I would be all for this, but WotC wants to have it's cake and eat it too with total disregard for the consumer. In case you forgot, the consumer is those of us who keep both them and the FLGSs in business.
WotC is also playing the long game here. With releases like Mordenkainen's Magical Emporium, and the "gaming stores only" Encounters and Lair Assaults, they're trying to support local gaming stores because they see them as a major source of new players - which, in the long run, translates into a continued customer base.
I say, more power to them. I'd love to be able to get my hands on the Encounters adventures, but I understand that if the supply of new players dries up, then eventually ongoing support for the game I love will as well.
Only problem is that we don't have very many hobby stores in the UK. They only really exist in cities which means a long drive for some people.
No, I disagree, and find that somewhat of an offensive comment towards WotC, their customers, and their retailers. The local business needs more support, not less, in this down economy. This sort of economy is what could kill the local businesses and favour Amazon, if they don't recieve support from publishers like WotC. This is a great idea, and I only lament that I'll have to go out of my way to work harder to get this book – but if you really want it delivered, I'm sure you could find a way (there are several retailers that sell products you're only supposed to find in FLGSs, such as Game Day books and such).
It is meant to be somewhat offensive to WotC. What is offensive to their customers and retailers is what they have done here. They have taken a book that I could have bought for $19.70, and made me pay $26.95 for it. Even the 20% off I can get at my FLGS is still $21.56 pre-tax. Whatever their intent, the end result is the consumer is screwed.
Now, like I said above if they offered it to FLGSs for the same wholesale price as they give it to Amazon for and told them they had to sell it for $19.70 then I would be all for this, but WotC wants to have it's cake and eat it too with total disregard for the consumer. In case you forgot, the consumer is those of us who keep both them and the FLGSs in business.
bookstores already get it at a wholesale price, but they have more overhead then Amazon does and thus can't mark the prices down. (That 19.70 is not the price of the book. That number slashed out on Amazon's web page is the price. Amazon is under-cutting the actual book price.) Frankily I'm glad they are supporting Local stores, as many have said they tend to close in bad economies and local game stores are a vital and quite important part of the hobby. (Especially if you aren't just into D&D but other rpgs/tactical mini games.) Do you know what a pain it is to find Battletech minis w/o my game store? I can do it online but it's a nuiscane. Or finding awesome indy games I'd never have looked at that turn out to be really fun. (Go look at the non-D&D/White Wolf section sometime there are some gems out there.)
...they're a lot more locally valuable than the immoral and distant giant corporations like Amazon or Barnes & Nobles.
I think you mean "amoral".
It is meant to be somewhat offensive to WotC. What is offensive to their customers and retailers is what they have done here. They have taken a book that I could have bought for $19.70, and made me pay $26.95 for it. Even the 20% off I can get at my FLGS is still $21.56 pre-tax. Whatever their intent, the end result is the consumer is screwed.
$21.65 - $19.70 = $1.95.
Now, like I said above if they offered it to FLGSs for the same wholesale price as they give it to Amazon for and told them they had to sell it for $19.70 then I would be all for this
I could critique you and tell you things about "bulk purchases", but that would just be negative. For my amusement and everyone else's, tell me how you think Amazon convinced WotC to let them sell books at a cheaper rate than gaming store. Does involved a slick salesman?
but WotC wants to have it's cake and eat it too with total disregard for the consumer. In case you forgot, the consumer is those of us who keep both them and the FLGSs in business.
Again, for the sake of amusement, tell me how your shopping on Amazon helps either WotC or the FLGS.
I also think it's important that customers are left without a bad feeling if they believe they're paying more than they need to.
I also believe it's important I get this book
But, as has already been noted, FLGS in the UK are a rare-breed. The only place where I could drive to and be reasnobly sure that they'd probably have a copy is a good few hours away. Say three hours drive there, three back - costing a small fortune in petrol and a whole day of time which I don't have. I really hope I can get it online, even second-hand (can people sell it second hand on Amazon, I wonder?).How can WotC make everyone happy? Perhaps their own mail-order/online store selling their own products with UK friendly delivery costs? Perhaps selling their pwn pdfs? Maybe giving FLGS a 6-month window before Amazon's allowed to sell it ...
I think it's important to support FLGS.
I also think it's important that customers are left without a bad feeling if they believe they're paying more than they need to.
I also believe it's important I get this book
How can WotC make everyone happy? Perhaps their own mail-order/online store selling their own products with UK friendly delivery costs? Perhaps selling their pwn pdfs? Maybe giving FLGS a 6-month window before Amazon's allowed to sell it ...
By actually selling the book everywhere. Even if the book is being sold on Amazon, people are still going to go and collect the book from their local FLGS because they don't want to wait for the book to be shipped. They could even have the FLGS sell the book at the same price as Amazon.
That being said, I'd like to clarify what it means for Amazon.com not to have this book. I buy a lot of books THROUGH amazon, including not only D&D, but I never really buy it FROM amazon. I usually buy the books from the many venders that sell through the amazon website (I think it's officially called amazon marketplace.) Typically this is where you can really find the deals. Will WotC really be blocking the sale of Mordenkainen from Amazon Marketplace as well? My guess is that Mordenkainen will be listed on Amazon marketplace inside of 2 weeks. An additional fact to consider is that SOME of the venders that sell on Amazon also have a brick and mortar store and are in fact a FLGS, although not exactly "local" to you - but "local" to somebody.
By actually selling the book everywhere. Even if the book is being sold on Amazon, people are still going to go and collect the book from their local FLGS because they don't want to wait for the book to be shipped. They could even have the FLGS sell the book at the same price as Amazon.
This +1! WotC is trying to be an engine of social change here. It's more pathetic than a drop of water in the ocean. Not even all of WotC is making this kind of change, and certainly not all of Hasbro. The world is changing (maybe not for the better), but disallowing online purchases is backward thinking.
I do feel bad for our UK brothers (and any others in the US or around the world) who will have to drive a whopping 6 hours round trip to get this book! Shameful if you ask me. This is quite simply bone-headed on WotCs part.
I am in agreement as well that we should be supporting our FLGS. If online venders were the only places you could purchase D&D materials, I'm pretty sure that the hobby would die out. The strength is that FLGSs are one of the primary ways that new players come in contact with the game. I can't be the only person who was inspired to play the game after visiting a gaming store and thumbing through the collection of books available there (Of course they said AD&D on them back then).
That being said, I'd like to clarify what it means for Amazon.com not to have this book. I buy a lot of books THROUGH amazon, including not only D&D, but I never really buy it FROM amazon. I usually buy the books from the many venders that sell through the amazon website (I think it's officially called amazon marketplace.) Typically this is where you can really find the deals. Will WotC really be blocking the sale of Mordenkainen from Amazon Marketplace as well? My guess is that Mordenkainen will be listed on Amazon marketplace inside of 2 weeks. An additional fact to consider is that SOME of the venders that sell on Amazon also have a brick and mortar store and are in fact a FLGS, although not exactly "local" to you - but "local" to somebody.
I'm not actually opposed to FLGSs. What I am opposed to is lack of choice. Luckily I have full confidence that this is going to backfire on WotC and MME will be the worst selling D&D book of all time. Once the experiment fails, hopefully Hasbro will reign them in and we'll be able to get everything else where we want to in the future.
I do feel bad for our UK brothers (and any others in the US or around the world) who will have to drive a whopping 6 hours round trip to get this book! Shameful if you ask me. This is quite simply bone-headed on WotCs part.
Wrong.
Many FLGS also have an online presence, including many in the UK and europe. You can order this book online via one of those stores. If you want, the only movement you'll make will be from the couch to the door when it's delivered.
I do feel bad for our UK brothers (and any others in the US or around the world) who will have to drive a whopping 6 hours round trip to get this book! Shameful if you ask me. This is quite simply bone-headed on WotCs part.
Wrong.
Many FLGS also have an online presence, including many in the UK and europe. You can order this book online via one of those stores. If you want, the only movement you'll make will be from the couch to the door when it's delivered.
Depends on where in Europe you are talking about. I'm in Ireland and the only FLGS that's close to is in Dublin (Hour away) and it doesn't even carry Essentials books. It's more of a Warhammer and Magic: The Gathering Store and they don't have an online presence.
I do feel bad for our UK brothers (and any others in the US or around the world) who will have to drive a whopping 6 hours round trip to get this book! Shameful if you ask me. This is quite simply bone-headed on WotCs part.
Wrong.
Many FLGS also have an online presence, including many in the UK and europe. You can order this book online via one of those stores. If you want, the only movement you'll make will be from the couch to the door when it's delivered.
And many don't. I was simply responding to pogminky who made the claim that he has to drive 6 hours round trip. Take it up with him if you have a problem with that. I won't be buying online (and paying full price) from some non-local gaming store. Kind of defeats the "supposed" purpose of supporting your FLGS, doesn't it?? I love it when people torpedo their own argument.
I'm not actually opposed to FLGSs. What I am opposed to is lack of choice.
Trust me Kalex, within two weeks of release the book will be on Amazon but sold by independent book stores. Probably FLGSs from other locales.
This is an attempt to get people in the store - and I hope it works. But I don't think WotC has the ability to stop Amazon from listing the book - they just won't sell any directly to Amazon.
I'm not actually opposed to FLGSs. What I am opposed to is lack of choice.
Trust me Kalex, within two weeks of release the book will be on Amazon but sold by independent book stores. Probably FLGSs from other locales.
This is an attempt to get people in the store - and I hope it works. But I don't think WotC has the ability to stop Amazon from listing the book - they just won't sell any directly to Amazon.
This.
Also E-bay will be crawling w/the things before long.
I am curious Kalex, since Wizards often tracks books through FLGS, how/why do you think they didn't do enough research to know that the sales from those places will support the printing of the book? Frankly the idea that they aren't keenly aware of the best ways to sell their product seems quite strange to me.
Frankly, I wonder how all you folks who think Local game stores can afford to sell things at Amazon's price-cuts think that would work.
(Also you folks w/o a game shop locally have you checked comic shops? They tend to carry rpgs and accessories as well. I'm sure folks have but, well if you don't do the comics thing you might not realize.)
You should really read my posts more closely. I didn't say that I think LGSs could simply afford to make those deep cuts to their pricing. WotC would have to help out. Someone back a ways said FLGSs do get wholesale pricing, but this shows how uninformed they really are. There isn't just one wholesale price. Volume retailers often get better wholesale pricing, precisely because they can move a lot of product. Amazon works this way (and is a little bit of a bully about it from what I have heard). If WotC doesn't like Amazon, and wants to shut them out, sell the books to the LGSs for the same price they sell them to Amazon. Then the LGSs can offer them for the same price as Amazon, and it levels the playing field without screwing the consumer.
As to your research question, I obviously can't answer this for sure, but it is fair to assume that Amazon accounts for a large portion of D&D book sales. Their position as the largest online retailer in the world assures that is true. What WotC seems to be gambling on this that most people will simply go to their FLGS to get the book. They can't know for sure that it will happen. I hope it does not. I am myself considering not buying the book at this point in the hopes that enough people will also do so to make this little experiment a failure. The way WotC is going about this is just wrong.
BaronFel,
If WotC doesn't like Amazon, and wants to shut them out, sell the books to the LGSs for the same price they sell them to Amazon.
I highly doubt that WotC "doesn't like" Amazon. There is a balancing act here to be sure. Amazon provides an extremely accessible outlet but doesn't provide the exposure that comes from knowledgeable sales associates that you would find in a FLGS (as well as physical displays and such).
To keep both channels (major distributors and FLGS) in business, WotC could either sell product to FLGS at a discount, allowing them to set the pricepoint in-store at levels competitive to Amazon (I think this was your idea). The alternative is to release a book once in a while that is exclusive to the FLGS in order to bring in more customers allowing for the opportunity of repeat future business. This seems to be what WotC is doing. One strategy is a shorter term cut in revenue with long term benefits. The other is a longer-term (and probably deeper) cut in revenue and does longer-term damage to the major distributor channel as well - that is Amazon will continue to lose business to FLGS over a longer timespan.
I'm going to joyfully pay an extra 2 dollars and purchase the book at my FLGS.
To keep both channels (major distributors and FLGS) in business, WotC could either sell product to FLGS at a discount, allowing them to set the pricepoint in-store at levels competitive to Amazon (I think this was your idea).
You are correct, sir!
I really amazes me that WotC thinks that they need to do this at all. Books sales are traditionally driven by word of mouth. I've started seeing some books advertised in magazines and on TV lately, but seeing the author on TV and hearing them talk is actually a turn off to me, and it is still very rare. I don't see paperback book publishers avoiding Amazon in this way to get more people into brick and mortar book stores. Gaming stores and for that matter comic stores have always been a risky business to get into. Most store owners I know, or have known, barely get by. This isn't anything new, and WotC can't change that fact.
I just think WotCs whole premise is wrong. People walking into brick and mortar stores isn't going to do a lot to expand the hobby. That is still done by word of mouth outside of stores. Furthermore, doing this doesn't do anything to endear WotC to its consumers who rely on Amazon to be able to afford their hobby, or as the only practical outlet to purchase the books.
Depends on where in Europe you are talking about. I'm in Ireland and the only FLGS that's close to is in Dublin (Hour away) and it doesn't even carry Essentials books. It's more of a Warhammer and Magic: The Gathering Store and they don't have an online presence.
I have just had confirmation from both IGUK and Orc's Nest that they will be selling MME through their online stores. Both will ship to Ireland by Royal Mail Airmail (which should be no more than an extra 4-5£ on top of the book's price).
Depends on where in Europe you are talking about. I'm in Ireland and the only FLGS that's close to is in Dublin (Hour away) and it doesn't even carry Essentials books. It's more of a Warhammer and Magic: The Gathering Store and they don't have an online presence.
I have just had confirmation from both IGUK and Orc's Nest that they will be selling MME through their online stores. Both will ship to Ireland by Royal Mail Airmail (which should be no more than an extra 4-5£ on top of the book's price).
That would cost me just a little more since sterling is worth more than the euro. But at least they will ship it. I wouldn't mind having that new Rifts: Vampire Kingdoms book.
I don't see paperback book publishers avoiding Amazon in this way to get more people into brick and mortar book stores. Gaming stores and for that matter comic stores have always been a risky business to get into. Most store owners I know, or have known, barely get by. This isn't anything new, and WotC can't change that fact.
I just think WotCs whole premise is wrong. People walking into brick and mortar stores isn't going to do a lot to expand the hobby. That is still done by word of mouth outside of stores. Furthermore, doing this doesn't do anything to endear WotC to its consumers who rely on Amazon to be able to afford their hobby, or as the only practical outlet to purchase the books.
Your problem is that you see the FLGS only as a place to go and by stuff. They are that, but they are also a place where gamers gather and play. Making MME exclusive to them brings gamer focus to them in a way that simply attaining price parity with Amazon would not. Anyway, trying to attain price parity with Amazon in the FLGS is a losing battle, since their overhead is always lower and they never charge sales tax.
Your problem is that you see the FLGS only as a place to go and by stuff. They are that, but they are also a place where gamers gather and play. Making MME exclusive to them brings gamer focus to them in a way that simply attaining price parity with Amazon would not. Anyway, trying to attain price parity with Amazon in the FLGS is a losing battle, since their overhead is always lower and they never charge sales tax.
Actually I don't see FLGSs only as a place to go buy stuff, but that doesn't really have anything to do with the argument at hand. For as much as I like the owner of my FLGS (we used to work there together before he became the owner), simple economics trump our friendship and he understands that. He cannot beat the price Amazon has because WotC won't sell him the books for the same price. Pure and simple. They often don't charge shipping fees on purchases over a certain dollar amount (and most D&D products meet this criteria) which is what makes them more convenient than a FLGS most of the time, if you can wait to get your product.
He cannot beat the price Amazon has because WotC won't sell him the books for the same price.
Even if stores could get them at the same price as Amazon, Amazon would always be able to sell them cheaper: Amazon doesn't have to pay expensive rent on a store front, and they don't have to charge their customers sales tax. The FLGS simply cannot get in to a price war with Amazon. Amazon can always make their prices lower than the FLGS, or simply stop selling game books. The very idea of trying to compete with Amazon on price is laughable.
The alternative is to find ways to get people in to gaming stores by adding value. This makes sense for WotC, since gaming stores help expand the hobby while Amazon does not. From the WotC end, these efforts include:
- World Wide Game Days
- Encounters
- Fortune Cards
- ... and now this somewhat artificial value add, by limiting distribution to the FLGS
The very idea of trying to compete with Amazon on price is laughable.
I don't think anyone is actually suggesting that they can, or even should. My argument is that limiting the sale of this book to FLGSs is asinine, and that WotCs reasons for doing so (from what I have heard) are misguided, and/or misinformed.
Now, if WotC did let Ron sell the book for the same price as Amazon, by giving him the same wholesale price, we wouldn't even be having this discussion because in that case I would pay the extra 7% and get it from Ron instead of some big nameless corportation. The fact that WotC wants to force me to pay more than I can get it for from Amazon, and pay tax all in the name of some false benefit to FLGSs is what makes me mad because it is pure falsehood. I would even applaud WotC if they gave FLGSs the same deal as Amazon, and allowed them to sell it for $26.95 (though I'd buy from Amazon in that case). That would be some real profit for the poor cash strapped store owners, but don't try to feed me some BS line about WotC caring about FLGSs cause it just ain't true. Ron still gets to just make a measly few cents off each book, and I guarantee you it isn't providing any extra revenue that he can't drum up on his own without big benevolent WotC.
The very idea of trying to compete with Amazon on price is laughable.
I don't think anyone is actually suggesting that they can, or even should. My argument is that limiting the sale of this book to FLGSs is asinine, and that WotCs reasons for doing so (from what I have heard) are misguided, and/or misinformed.
Now, if WotC did let Ron sell the book for the same price as Amazon, by giving him the same wholesale price, we wouldn't even be having this discussion because in that case I would pay the extra 7% and get it from Ron instead of some big nameless corportation. The fact that WotC wants to force me to pay more than I can get it for from Amazon, and pay tax all in the name of some false benefit to FLGSs is what makes me mad because it is pure falsehood. I would even applaud WotC if they gave FLGSs the same deal as Amazon, and allowed them to sell it for $26.95 (though I'd buy from Amazon in that case). That would be some real profit for the poor cash strapped store owners, but don't try to feed me some BS line about WotC caring about FLGSs cause it just ain't true. Ron still gets to just make a measly few cents off each book, and I guarantee you it isn't providing any extra revenue that he can't drum up on his own without big benevolent WotC.
WotC does care about the FLGS. Not for the sake of the FLGS, obviously, but in how the FLGS can make mutual customers for them. That's the whole purpose behind the store programs that I listed in my last message, and that's just for D&D. There are plenty of other store-exclusive programs for M:tG that further prove my point. WotC doesn't want to sell to Amazon at cut rate, but they have no choice. WotC is not a charity, and can't afford to give every retailer the same benefit that Amazon gets.
If you were so concerned about "Ron", you'd quit being such a cheapskate and buy books at his store. Let's stop pretending this is some advocacy for the FLGS: I buy at mine. You don't, by your own admission. This is about you whining that you can't undercut "Ron" by buying every single book cut-rate from Amazon. What you don't seem to get is that if WotC gave the same deal to retailers, then Amazon would still make their price lower than the retailers. People like you would be right back at the web browser ordering from Amazon and bitching about how you would buy from the FLGS if only you could get the book as cheap there. Or maybe you do get it, but you won't admit it.
Personally, I'm happy that WotC is distributing the book this way. Maybe it will encourage some of those freeloaders I see who come through the FLGS every single week for Encounters, LFR, and game days, and never buy things there.
In conclusion, let's examine a quote from your own signature:
WotC needs to realize that continuous negative posting is a form of trolling and shouldn't be allowed.
What are you doing right now by continuously slamming WotC in this thread?
It's all a marketing ploy by Wizards of the Coast that is hidden by the illusion of helping out the FLGS.
Then what, exactly, is to be gained by intentionally limiting the distribution to the FLGS? Somehow fool customers that WotC cares? Or could it be the more simple and direct explanation: WotC wants to encourage people to go to the FLGS.
The grapes in this thread are sour.
It's all a marketing ploy by Wizards of the Coast that is hidden by the illusion of helping out the FLGS.
Then what, exactly, is to be gained by intentionally limiting the distribution to the FLGS? Somehow fool customers that WotC cares? Or could it be the more simple and direct explanation: WotC wants to encourage people to go to the FLGS.
The grapes in this thread are sour.
Here is the problem. If Wizards of the Coast really wants to help the FLGS then they need to sell the books to these shops at the same price they sell them to Amazon because that would be more money in the owner's pockets.
I can almost promise you there will not be a mad rush by the populace to buy this book. Some people will actually wait to get the book when it's cheaper and yu will have some people who will have gone to their FLGS regardless if Amazon has the book or not.
You are obviously not reading my posts, and are only here as a pro-WotC troll, so this will me my last response to you.
Amazon can't undercut anything if WotC gives preferred wholesale pricing to FLGSs and doesn't sell any to Amazon. But you don't see WotC doing that and saying to the FLGS owner, "Go ahead and pocket the increased revenue from these products, we really care about you and this is our way of showing it to you."
So you are admitting that the in store programs do nothing for the LGSs themselves because only freeloaders participate. Nice. Proves my point further, and is good ammo for another thread I am posting in. Thanks.
My sig referrs to people who open new threads on a daily basis on the same topic, over and over again. Either to antagonize fellow forum members or in a childish attempt to "force" some kind of official response from WotC against normal company policy. This is one thread, and my attempts to clarify my position to people who have questioned it and truly wanted to understand it. You apparently are not one of those, which is why I am done responding to you.
Good day troll.
Here is the problem. If Wizards of the Coast really wants to help the FLGS then they need to sell the books to these shops at the same price they sell them to Amazon because that would be more money in the owner's pockets.
I can almost promise you there will not be a mad rush by the populace to buy this book. Some people will actually wait to get the book when it's cheaper and yu will have some people who will have gone to their FLGS regardless if Amazon has the book or not.
QFT
You are obviously not reading my posts
I've read your posts. I just don't think you've successfully defended your position.
Amazon can't undercut anything if WotC gives preferred wholesale pricing to FLGSs and doesn't sell any to Amazon. But you don't see WotC doing that and saying to the FLGS owner, "Go ahead and pocket the increased revenue from these products, we really care about you and this is our way of showing it to you."
Oh, now you want WotC to sell to the FLGS and not Amazon? I don't think anything more needs to be said in this thread.
So you are admitting that the in store programs do nothing for the LGSs themselves because only freeloaders participate. Nice. Proves my point further, and is good ammo for another thread I am posting in. Thanks.
Uh, no. I never said that. Many of the people who come to the store for these programs buy plenty of stuff. There are others who do not, and they are the freeloaders. Go ahead and read things that aren't there, though. The only credibility you're hurting is yours.
Good day troll.
Same to you, buddy.
But what the hell, my 2 cents. Honestly I'm not a fan of this turn of events. Sorry, I get the drive to support the mom & pop stores and I don't have issue with those stores, and get that yeah the big companys tend to squash them. Shame. But I also don't think it's fair to some people to refuse to sell them online or at the big stores and only at those mom & pop stores.
Personally yeah, I bought most of my D&D books(when I was buying them) on Amazon because they're quite a bit cheaper and money was an issue. Would've love to buy them at B&N, but just couldn't do it. And with this turn of events the only place that'll probably get this book is one store and while not far or anything...one store to have access to getting the book for the entire town and surrounding area to me is a joke. Mind you I don't have the money for the book but I was going to get it eventually when I had money and yet it seems like if I can only get it from that one store and they either decide not to carry it, I'm screwed. Or it'll take awhile to get in especially if people keep buying it.
Honestly I hope Wizards doesn't continue doing this with all their future book releases because for a lot of people it'll make the books nearly impossible or definitely impossible to get which is counter to their goals of getting sales and money. But whatever, they keep doing crap I don't like so I'm not surprised by this at all.
I would probably say don't bother going back for a preorder. Just wait till the book is out, call that very morning and if they have copies ask them to hold one till you can get down that day. That'll save you $20. But if you're still worried and call the owner again, ask to do the preorder over the phone. A lot of businesses will run credit cards over the phone. So get your mom to use her card to pay for the book, or at least pay for part of it with a preorder(whichever), then give her the money for it. That way you aren't driving down there AGAIN until the book comes in.
Things don't always work out best for us. There are people who refuse to buy things online because they don't want to transmit financial information over the internet. They've been stuck paying full price - should WoTC stop selling to Amazon at better wholesale prices?
Whether this idea works better for access / price for one set or people or not, isn't the reason WoTC decided to do this. They believe having a strong FLGS network is what will keep this hobby alive and healthy allowing them to continue to aquire new customers and keep selling books. The less FLGS, the less people getting introduced to the game by walking into a store. Because it's a given that the average FLGS clerk is gonna know a lot more than the avg chain store clerk (Barnes & Noble and until recently Borders). And forgot Amazon for new customer aquisition.
I think everyone can agree that WoTC makes more money (in the short-term) by selling through Amazon and the chains. But, whether you think this idea will work or not, you should applaud them for putting long-term gains over short-term profits.
Unless you truly think the idea is they just want to make it harder on some of their customers.
And before someone replies that they should then not sell to Amazon and chains at all. Well, that's not gonna work. They need these mass market sales. but they also need the FLGS and therefore have to manage multiple chains of distribution - like a lot of companies do.
Also, they can't offer lower prices to the FLGS so that these stores can compete with Amazon and B&N online discount. Unless you think that Amazon and B&N would be OK with paying the same price as companies placing orders for probably less than 5% of the units they do. It's safe to say once they hear that Tom's Elven Tower in Concord is getting price A for their order, there going to demand better terms for placing much bigger orders.
** In full disclosure, I live in a major city with a HANDFUL of FLGS and quite a few B&N locations (though not as many as before and all Borders gone). Also, since starting a family I purchase most of my WoTC products online. Before that though, when I had more disposable income, I made all purchases from the FLGS (of which 2 of the 3 I used to go to have closed).
But, whether you think this idea will work or not, you should applaud them for putting long-term gains over short-term profits.
Why on earth should people applaud something they believe to be a really bad (and ultimately self-defeating) idea?
Like it or not, bricks-and-mortar stores of all kinds are gradually but inexorably going the way of the dodo. If WotC is going to rely on FLGSs to bring in new customers to the exclusion of making buying their products convenient for people who shop online, then they are doing the exact opposite of "putting long-term gains over short-term profits". They're actively sabotaging themselves in the long term in a misguided attempt to make themselves feel good about "supporting local gaming stores" in the present.
I don't play D&D4e because I stumbled into an FLGS and got roped into an Encounters game. I play it because I heard about it online and ordered the core 3 books from Amazon, at what I felt was an appropriate "suck it and see" price. If not for Amazon selling those books at that price, I and my group would not be playing this game. I would not have been willing to drive the 70-80 miles (and the same back again) to the nearest gaming store that runs Encounters, and I would not have been willing to pay the full retail price for the core 3 books, since I did not yet know I was going to like the system.
If D&D is primarily dependant on FLGSs to bring in new players, then it is doomed. If you actually care about the future of D&D, you should be hoping that WotC/Hasbro are smarter than this decision makes them seem.
Like it or not, bricks-and-mortar stores of all kinds are gradually but inexorably going the way of the dodo. If WotC is going to rely on FLGSs to bring in new customers to the exclusion of making buying their products convenient for people who shop online, then they are doing the exact opposite of "putting long-term gains over short-term profits". They're actively sabotaging themselves in the long term in a misguided attempt to make themselves feel good about "supporting local gaming stores" in the present.
Emphasis mine. As an equipment book, 95% of it will be available on DDI. Subbing into DDI for 1 month will get you nearly everything in this book plus hundreds of other works for roughly the price of this book. All. Online.
I don't play D&D4e because I stumbled into an FLGS and got roped into an Encounters game. I play it because I heard about it online and ordered the core 3 books from Amazon, at what I felt was an appropriate "suck it and see" price. If not for Amazon selling those books at that price, I and my group would not be playing this game. I would not have been willing to drive the 70-80 miles (and the same back again) to the nearest gaming store that runs Encounters, and I would not have been willing to pay the full retail price for the core 3 books, since I did not yet know I was going to like the system.
Pray tell, where did you first hear about D&D? About tabletop RPGs in general? Was it on the Internet? Were you convinced that RPGing wasn't weird and was actually cool through reading some threads on a forum? If so, then I commend you for bucking the trend. Most people have to see a RPG in person to grok it. They need to experience that social interaction to understand its value. However, if you were able to get that from a RPG.net review, then I guess "random google searches" is WotC's primary tool for new player acquisitions!
If D&D is primarily dependant on FLGSs to bring in new players, then it is doomed. If you actually care about the future of D&D, you should be hoping that WotC/Hasbro are smarter than this decision makes them seem.
The FLGS is a useful acquisition tool to get new players. It is most certainly a failing business practise, but it's also the only presence tabletop gaming has in the physcial world 365 days a year. Bored teenagers wandering into a store with dragon art on its door is far more likely than a bored teenager on the internet searching for a game he doesn't know exist, or paying to go into a tabletop gaming convention when he doesn't know anything about the games there.
Emphasis mine. As an equipment book, 95% of it will be available on DDI. Subbing into DDI for 1 month will get you nearly everything in this book plus hundreds of other works for roughly the price of this book. All. Online.
Don't make me laugh. The online Compendium doesn't even have themes yet, a year after they were first introduced. Nor does it tell you anywhere what the paladin's Divine Sanction does, or that the Elemental Priest's conjurations all occupy a square and can be moved. Nor does it tell you what dragonmarks actually are (beyond just being slightly overpowered feats), or why they should probably be considered Eberron-only, or what their story implications are meant to be. DDi is not a substitute for owning the actual books. I can pretty much guarantee that the rules for cursed items (as opposed to just the individual item cards), for example, will not be in the online Compendium.
Pray tell, where did you first hear about D&D? About tabletop RPGs in general?
At school. In a place where gaming stores (well, except for Games Workshop) basically did not exist (and still don't 17 years later, again except for GW). A bunch of older kids were playing (2e IIRC) D&D. I joined in, liked the concept, but hated the system. Devised my own system and ran those older kids and another group of my own age through a couple of campaigns. Then got sidetracked by Warhammer for a few years (which I learned about from a member of the younger of my two RPG groups - my town did not have a GW store back then), finally got sick of the 'black-and-black' morality GW seemed intent on injecting into their games and quit the hobby altogether after university (actually working for GW was the final straw - they were actually great employers, but I pretty much burned out on having to remain enthusiastic about everything they ever produced). Got back into D&D with 4e, which as I said I found out about online. Like I said, no gaming stores here except GW, where even mentioning non-GW products is verboten.
The FLGS is a useful acquisition tool to get new players. It is most certainly a failing business practise,
And both these things are true completely independent of what WotC does. Refusing to let Amazon sell MME won't make a bit of difference to either of these facts in the long term. Which is my point, really. WotC are making things unnecessarily awkward for some of their customers, with absolutely no upside beyond making them feel good about themselves for "supporting FLGSs" - in other words supporting a failing business model just because it hasn't quite gone extinct yet. This does not seem like a good idea to me, and I'll be damned if I'll let someone tell me I'm morally obligated to applaud it.
but it's also the only presence tabletop gaming has in the physcial world 365 days a year.
Which is a real problem and, here's the important thing, not something this stupid policy of making products exclusive to FLGSs does anything to solve.
Bored teenagers wandering into a store with dragon art on its door is far more likely than a bored teenager on the internet searching for a game he doesn't know exist, or paying to go into a tabletop gaming convention when he doesn't know anything about the games there.
No, these days, our bored teenager is more likely to learn about tabletop RPGs through RPG-inspired video games. And WotC obviously does realise this, because they just brought out a book to allow people to play tabletop D&D in Neverwinter.
The FLGS is a useful acquisition tool to get new players. It is most certainly a failing business practise,
And both these things are true completely independent of what WotC does. Refusing to let Amazon sell MME won't make a bit of difference to either of these facts in the long term. Which is my point, really. WotC are making things unnecessarily awkward for some of their customers, with absolutely no upside beyond making them feel good about themselves for "supporting FLGSs" - in other words supporting a failing business model just because it hasn't quite gone extinct yet. This does not seem like a good idea to me, and I'll be damned if I'll let someone tell me I'm morally obligated to applaud it.
I'm not sure who told you your morally obligated to applaud it.
Quite the opposite. I gave reasons for supporting WoTC' decision that had nothing to do with morals. I stated I believed it was done for business reaons - to grow the business long-term - ie, to make more money - just over a sustainable period of time as opposed to as quickly as possible.
I also stated that the reason for applauding was because it appears to be an attempt to safeguard the hobby. Not that it was the right decision, just that it appears to show they are thinking of ways to grom the hobby. Clearly, every attempt won't work but hobbyists should be grateful they are trying something. kinda like when a parent applauds thier child for giving a 100% effort. Not just when they get a hit in the baseball game.
As far some of your other points. You seemed to (unintentionally?) give the wrong reason for how you were "aquired as a customer." It wasn't thru the internet - it was thru other players. Your stating that you heard about it online, was actually how you came back to the game. And here I was, ready to change my opinion about how many people could be introduced to the game thru an online retailer. Because of your one example. It was quite the compelling argument. Who needs market research when they can just come to the forum and get one person to tell us their personal experience and suggest that it proves their point.
Also, I don't think anyone would make the arguement that selling MME to FLGS will reverse the trend. It is an attempt to drive traffic thru the stores - such as the encounters programs, the game days, the preferred store network, etc. Hopefully, enough of these programs / ideas in tandem will help these stores. The ones that don't work will be thrown out and other ideas will be tried. Or they can just e-mail you privately and you can tell them what will or won't work and save them the trouble.
WoTC releasing the Neverwinter CS and other tie-ins to the video game is another attempt at marketing and reaching the bored teenagers playing video games segment (admittedly probably pretty large). Should that be all WOTC try to reach out to now? Or would it be good business sense to try to aquire other customers? Is it not possible that some bored teenagers while hanging out at the mall or local main street (another favorite activity of bored teenagers) might wander into a store with dragon art on its door?
You also mentioned that school was "a place where gaming stores (well, except for Games Workshop) basically did not exist (and still don't 17 years later, again except for GW)." And your hometown seems bereft also. Have you lived in a town with a FLGS? Especially while still a child?
If not, could it be that without extensive first-hand knowledge of what some gaming stores provide you don't realize their benefits? Like offering a place to meet other gamers and a place to play. Knowledgeable sales clerks who can explain the concept behind a RPG and help someone make an informed decision.
Emphasis mine. As an equipment book, 95% of it will be available on DDI. Subbing into DDI for 1 month will get you nearly everything in this book plus hundreds of other works for roughly the price of this book. All. Online.
Don't make me laugh. The online Compendium doesn't even have themes yet, a year after they were first introduced. Nor does it tell you anywhere what the paladin's Divine Sanction does, or that the Elemental Priest's conjurations all occupy a square and can be moved. Nor does it tell you what dragonmarks actually are (beyond just being slightly overpowered feats), or why they should probably be considered Eberron-only, or what their story implications are meant to be. DDi is not a substitute for owning the actual books. I can pretty much guarantee that the rules for cursed items (as opposed to just the individual item cards), for example, will not be in the online Compendium.
It's an equipment book. The rules for Cursed Items will probably be the only thing that DDI doesn't have from the books. Everything else (assuming quick translation onto the system) will be available on-line. Making a book exclusive to FLGSs makes sense if that book was going to be severely undercut by DDI upon release. Online users have a far better choice than buying the book, and those who are buying the physcial book will probably do it from a FLGS.
I'm not sure who told you your morally obligated to applaud it.
You did, when you said: "whether you think this idea will work or not, you should applaud them for putting long-term gains over short-term profits."
If you did not mean to imply an obligation, then "should" was not the appropriate word to use there.
Quite the opposite. I gave reasons for supporting WoTC' decision that had nothing to do with morals. I stated I believed it was done for business reaons - to grow the business long-term - ie, to make more money - just over a sustainable period of time as opposed to as quickly as possible.
Stating that people should applaud the decision even if they think it won't work implies that you regard it as more than just good business sense, because you're basically stating that people should still applaud it even if they think it's a stupid desicion from a business point of view.
kinda like when a parent applauds thier child for giving a 100% effort.
Wait. You think parents are not making an implied moral statement when they do that? That they're not doing it (1) as a way of telling their child that giving 100% is a morally good thing to do and (2) because they believe being supportive parents is morally right?
You most certainly implied that you thought it a moral imperative for people to applaud the decision even if they disagreed with it. It seems you didn't mean to imply that, but that's hardly my fault.
You seemed to (unintentionally?) give the wrong reason for how you were "aquired as a customer." It wasn't thru the internet - it was thru other players. Your stating that you heard about it online, was actually how you came back to the game.
I play D&D4e because I heard about it on the internet. That is a 100% true statement. I never claimed to have first heard about RPGs on the internet. However, if I were 17 years younger, and just learning about RPGs now, there's a pretty good chance it would be either online or indirectly from a school-friend who learned about it online. FLGSs are as rare as hen's teeth in this country, yet most people seem to know at least in vague terms what RPGs are and what D&D is. So FLGSs seem not to be as essential as you seem to think.
Oh, and none of those older kids who first introduced me to D&D in the 1990s had found out about it via a gaming store.
And here I was, ready to change my opinion about how many people could be introduced to the game thru an online retailer. Because of your one example. It was quite the compelling argument. Who needs market research when they can just come to the forum and get one person to tell us their personal experience and suggest that it proves their point.
Don't be silly. Nobody ever really changes their mind because of an argument over the internet. ;)
Point taken about the validity of single anecdotes. But we can all only really speak to our own individual experiences. Mine lead me to think this decision of WotC's is assinine. I concede they may have market research that tells them the future existence of D&D requires propping up failing FLGSs. In their position, I'd be looking for a new market research company that is actually capable of recognising large-scale socio-economic trends rather than just assuming that a business model that worked a decade ago and hasn't gone extinct yet will inevitably continue for decades to come. But that's just me.
Hopefully, enough of these programs / ideas in tandem will help these stores. The ones that don't work will be thrown out and other ideas will be tried.
Sure. As long as they're not doing these things to the detriment of customers like Xun, who is probably going to end up paying well over the list price for MME to get it shipped by a UK gaming store with a webstore to where he lives in Ireland.
Notice I'm not saying "customers like me". This is not just a matter of me being selfish and wanting everything to be convenient for me personally. It's looking like I'll be able to get MME just as easily and cheaply as I would have if WotC had not made this decision. It's people like Xun who live in places where buying D&D products online means paying for international shipping who are the losers here.
Or they can just e-mail you privately and you can tell them what will or won't work and save them the trouble.
Is this meant to be a passive-aggressive way of saying you think I'm an arrogant ass? Because I am. Probably a pompous arrogant ass to boot.
Or would it be good business sense to try to aquire other customers? Is it not possible that some bored teenagers while hanging out at the mall or local main street (another favorite activity of bored teenagers) might wander into a store with dragon art on its door?
Sure, as long as they are not screwing over other customers in the process. I have no problem with in-store events like Encounters, for example. I can't participate in them because I don't have a store within practical travel distance that takes part, but I don't in any way begrudge those who do.
You also mentioned that school was "a place where gaming stores (well, except for Games Workshop) basically did not exist (and still don't 17 years later, again except for GW)." And your hometown seems bereft also. Have you lived in a town with a FLGS? Especially while still a child?
While I was at university, yes. So I'm aware of what they can be like. I also, as I already stated, worked for GW for a while, so I know how valuable gaming stores can be to "growing the hobby" (as they put it). But GW never (AFAICR) made products exclusive to their physical stores and unavailable through their online store (or anyone else's online stores), because they recognised that physical stores are ultimately a temporary phenomenon. Making those who buy online jump through hoops in order to "drive traffic through" their physical stores would have been a stupid thing to do. GW, for all their faults, at least recognised that.
If not, could it be that without extensive first-hand knowledge of what some gaming stores provide you don't realize their benefits? Like offering a place to meet other gamers and a place to play. Knowledgeable sales clerks who can explain the concept behind a RPG and help someone make an informed decision.
Those are all great things, and if WotC actually care about the future of the hobby (and we have to assume they do), they need to be thinking of how D&D can outlive the extinction of those places and the excellent benefits they provide. Not merely try to artificially prop them up while making things unnecessarily difficult for those customers who do not have a FLGS or who choose to exercise their consumer rights to buy products from the retailer of their choice.
The rules for Cursed Items will probably be the only thing that DDI doesn't have from the books.
And the rules for story items. And the goals and concordance rules for all the new artefacts in the book. So, yeah, there are quite a few things someone who cannot get hold of a physical copy of MME can't use. DDi is not a substitute for owning the books. Maybe it ought to be, but right now it's not even close.
Not to mention that when 5e comes, whether that's in a year (very unlikely) or five years (rather more likely) or ten years (pretty much inevitable by then), anyone who relies exclusively on DDi almost certainly won't be able to play 4e any more, or at least not with all the options they've grown used to, whereas someone who owns the physical books can continue to play 4e until the Sun swells into a red giant and engulfs the Earth...
wizards is not trying to gain players by supporting stores they are trying to get players to GO INTO THE STORES AND SUPPORT THEM because stores are where new players go to meet people to play with IN THE FLESH. theres a social aspect that they are supporting by doing this and getting us out of the forums where we're not playing only complaining
And yet I can still play D&D without needing a FLGS. I agree that FLGSs are useful to the hobby, just not that they are essential. (And, if they are truly essential, then D&D is doomed anyway.)
Now...if WotC made it possible for small online retailers (based in LGSs) to sell the books at the same price Amazon does (and with free shipping), then I really wouldn't care. The impact on me would be zero. This decision they have made has a huge impact in many different areas, and ultimately screws the consumer (intentionally or not). There is no getting around that fact, and it sucks! This is simply an assinine decision by WotC...end of story.
You guys are reading too much into this. This is their halfway point between "canceled" and "released". It's called a "limited release" and it's nothing new.
I see this as a business decision, not to support FLGSs but an attempt at targeting their sales. This is a very low-print book: as such, they need to send it where they know it's going to sell the best. They simply won't be printing enough to have them sit at Barnes and Noble and Amazon warehouses, so they send the few copies they print to where the people most likely to buy them will be.
You guys are reading too much into this. This is their halfway point between "canceled" and "released". It's called a "limited release" and it's nothing new.
Not sending to B&N, maybe i can see your point, but Amazon? I doubt it would be sitting in their warehouses much longer than on the shelves of an FLGS due to the sheer volume of customers they reach.
(. I live in the far north of Scotland. IF I can find it in Inverness that's a 3 and 3/4 hour train journey each way. Why can't I order from WotC? Other game companies sell direct. I'd be prepared to pay a premium like most game makers charge when you order from them as an individual (I know they charge more than the end retailers because they can't be bothered with the overheads). I was one of the original Amazon UK pre-orders before the 1st print got cancelled. GIVE ME THE BOOK!!Now I need to wait for an Ebay seller.
Disgraceful.
I've only just found this out
Now I need to wait for an Ebay seller.
Disgraceful.
+1, in fact this poster linked me here.
Being in the same area of Scotland we both share the same issues. If we don't get it in Inverness, then it means a trip to Aberdeen, adding another 3 hours or so on an already considerable journey length. Failing that its then Glasgow, requiring an overnight stay. Will WOTC pay our journey to get to a FLGS to buy one of their books? I wish they would. I honestly don't fancy a 36 hour journey to get one single book, which would cost £70 or more just for the journey and overnight stay alone.
All that I can say is that WOTC needs to support more than FLGS because depriving people will eventually deprive them of money on D&D products.
I am so disappointed WOTC.
Know why I buy local? I get it 11 days before people who buy it from Amazon. That is because the stores I support are Premier WotC retailers. Paying the extra to get it now beats the price I pay extra. I also do not have to wait for it to be shipped. Some stores are offering 20% pre-order sales, and you still get it sooner rather than later.
That's great for ya. Keep going.
But I don't have a FLGS in nearest vicinity. And judging by the thread lots of people don't have it either.
And, same as Nyarlathotep, it was the first book in a year I really wanted to buy. Great job supporting FLGSs. Now please, something to support customers.
Someone mentioned in another thread that Wizards was trying to take a shot at Amazon in order to help out the FLGS. Looks to me like they sacrificed their players in order to hurt Amazon. Great Job Wizards!!
While this is unlikely (as hilarious as a Wesside Easside King County Geek Rumble would be), it wouldn't be entirely unreasonable considering Borders just up and died. RPGs need desperately need shelf space, and the cozier the community the better. It would be a ham-fisted way to do it, but Amazon may likely be causing some pain to book publishers - maybe it's even part of why D&D books have so little content-per-dollar anymore.
RPGs need desperately need shelf space
Really? Why? Buying online is easier and more convinient. I can read reviews, I can chat with peeps about it, ask their opinion. And in FLGS? Just a guy who wants to sell it to me. Paper books are becoming things of the past (I read a lot BTW, but on e-reader), why should we care about space and shelves of bookstores?
If you are unable to find a shop on the internet (or even by phone) to ship it to you, you aren't putting much effort into it. A lot of the complaints in this thread take far more effort than it would take locating a valid source to buy the book to be shipped.
The point is that Wizards isn't letting the book be sold online, instead only being placed in physical stores. Now yeah, maybe some of those stores have websites and it could be possible to sell them through those websites, but the big ones like Amazon.com and BN.com aren't selling the book. And really the big issue is that the reason why Wizards is doing this is because they want to support those physical stores. The reason why is that those stores can't offer the book at discounted prices like Amazon and BN.com can. Namely Amazon though, but BN.com has been known to charge less for books and DVDs then if you went down to the store and picked it up yourself.
If you are unable to find a shop on the internet (or even by phone) to ship it to you, you aren't putting much effort into it. A lot of the complaints in this thread take far more effort than it would take locating a valid source to buy the book to be shipped.
The point is that Wizards isn't letting the book be sold online, instead only being placed in physical stores. Now yeah, maybe some of those stores have websites and it could be possible to sell them through those websites, but the big ones like Amazon.com and BN.com aren't selling the book. And really the big issue is that the reason why Wizards is doing this is because they want to support those physical stores. The reason why is that those stores can't offer the book at discounted prices like Amazon and BN.com can. Namely Amazon though, but BN.com has been known to charge less for books and DVDs then if you went down to the store and picked it up yourself.
So people are worried about something completely irrelevant. Cool. As long as you can get the book, there's really nothing to complain about.
My FLGS received 36 copies of MME and have already sold all but 12. Normally, they would have received 8 copies. It's one release, one book. You can easily find a copy of it online, just not quite as easy as before. Not nearly as big of a deal as people are making it out to be.
Really? Why? Buying online is easier and more convinient. I can read reviews, I can chat with peeps about it, ask their opinion. And in FLGS? Just a guy who wants to sell it to me. Paper books are becoming things of the past (I read a lot BTW, but on e-reader), why should we care about space and shelves of bookstores?
Because shelf space improves the chances of a book being noticed, looked at, and purchased. Games are very often impulse purchases, without any prior knowledge that the material even exists.
As for talking with people and getting reviews, you can do that online or in the FLGS. Now if you only have an LGS that lacks the Friendly part, that is deeply unfortunate.
You should care because you want this game to continue to exist so you can get new material that entertains you for years to come.
Wizards does not make sales off of the unethical, no matter where they sell.
Or- Wizards could be doing a trial run with MME only being available through FLGS. Perhaps a smaller company (even though it's part of Hasbro- the D&D side of WotC is tiny in comparison) strong arming the bigger, fatter Amazon like places from demanding they sell their products their way...
I'd get the book while you can..
If you are unable to find a shop on the internet (or even by phone) to ship it to you, you aren't putting much effort into it. A lot of the complaints in this thread take far more effort than it would take locating a valid source to buy the book to be shipped.
Sorry, but this isn't my experience.
I have been trying to find this book online either for order or pre-order for the last three weeks and got nowhere.
Two of the game stores I get e-mails from about new releases have said they have it within the last week but are either immediately out of stock or never had it delivered as I am unable to order it. Frankly, though, I resent quite a bit the fact that I have had to spend so much time trying to give WotC my money when Madness of Gardmore Abbey was delivered to me on Friday courtesy of my Amazon pre-order.
I am in the UK, I have no access to a local game store and, according to the Wizards store finder, my nearest game store stocking this book is 150 miles away. This is a product I was very keen to buy and would buy even in PDF form if it were available but this bizarre decision means the moey I would have spent on this will be spent on the next shiny Paizo book that takes my fancy.
I don't shop from Amazon but it's a great buying spot for those not near a FLGS. I have a few friends that live in southern Utah and the nearest store available to them is over 100 miles away. They got online it but they were a bit annoyed by the whole process.
Amazon in the UK is Not the same as Amazon in the US.
I mostly buy from my FLGS since I get it earlier than Amazon. But I pay full price for the books. I don't mind but I don't blame others that do mind.
You should care because you want this game to continue to exist so you can get new material that entertains you for years to come.
Yep. I want this game to continue and all. But what it has to do with FLGSs? Impulse buy, you say. Yep, exactly - online. I chat, I read forums, tweets and so on, I see a new book (box, smth else), I like it and I go and buy it online. That's how it's done in the 21st century. You need an upgrade
If you are unable to find a shop on the internet (or even by phone) to ship it to you, you aren't putting much effort into it. A lot of the complaints in this thread take far more effort than it would take locating a valid source to buy the book to be shipped.
Sorry, but this isn't my experience.
I have been trying to find this book online either for order or pre-order for the last three weeks and got nowhere.
Two of the game stores I get e-mails from about new releases have said they have it within the last week but are either immediately out of stock or never had it delivered as I am unable to order it. Frankly, though, I resent quite a bit the fact that I have had to spend so much time trying to give WotC my money when Madness of Gardmore Abbey was delivered to me on Friday courtesy of my Amazon pre-order.
I am in the UK, I have no access to a local game store and, according to the Wizards store finder, my nearest game store stocking this book is 150 miles away. This is a product I was very keen to buy and would buy even in PDF form if it were available but this bizarre decision means the moey I would have spent on this will be spent on the next shiny Paizo book that takes my fancy.
Here, took me all of 3 minutes. And it's in stock.
www.iguk.co.uk/products/mordenkainens-ma...
You should care because you want this game to continue to exist so you can get new material that entertains you for years to come.
Yep. I want this game to continue and all. But what it has to do with FLGSs? Impulse buy, you say. Yep, exactly - online. I chat, I read forums, tweets and so on, I see a new book (box, smth else), I like it and I go and buy it online. That's how it's done in the 21st century. You need an upgrade
Considering the current direction of 4th edition is to get back players who are stuck in the past...
Considering the current direction of 4th edition is to get back players who are stuck in the past...
I have to admit, with Essentials, and MME (hirelings and what not), it does seem to be a bit 4th AD&D (which is okay, as I like 1st Ed and 4th Ed, just more options).
If you are unable to find a shop on the internet (or even by phone) to ship it to you, you aren't putting much effort into it. A lot of the complaints in this thread take far more effort than it would take locating a valid source to buy the book to be shipped.
Sorry, but this isn't my experience.
I have been trying to find this book online either for order or pre-order for the last three weeks and got nowhere.
Two of the game stores I get e-mails from about new releases have said they have it within the last week but are either immediately out of stock or never had it delivered as I am unable to order it. Frankly, though, I resent quite a bit the fact that I have had to spend so much time trying to give WotC my money when Madness of Gardmore Abbey was delivered to me on Friday courtesy of my Amazon pre-order.
I am in the UK, I have no access to a local game store and, according to the Wizards store finder, my nearest game store stocking this book is 150 miles away. This is a product I was very keen to buy and would buy even in PDF form if it were available but this bizarre decision means the moey I would have spent on this will be spent on the next shiny Paizo book that takes my fancy.
Here, took me all of 3 minutes. And it's in stock.
www.iguk.co.uk/products/mordenkainens-ma...
Thanks Jharii.
IGUK was one of those I get e-mail bulletins from but it showed as out of stock. Have checked again today and ordered the book. Am now happy
.Thanks Jharii.
IGUK was one of those I get e-mail bulletins from but it showed as out of stock. Have checked again today and ordered the book. Am now happy .
My pleasure. I actually enjoy the book. I hope you do as well.
or 
not sure yet.Amazon US
Amazon UK
Ebay
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My choice is to save money, but Wizards of the Coast has taken that choice away from me.
No they haven't. Look! You can still order it online and save a bunch of money!
My choice is to save money, but Wizards of the Coast has taken that choice away from me.
No they haven't. Look! You can still order it online and save a bunch of money!
Not bad, but not as low as Amazon's price would have been. Amazon sells D&D books with a MSRP of $29.99 for less than $20. I do use CoolStuff as one source for DDM purchases though.
My choice is to save money, but Wizards of the Coast has taken that choice away from me.
No they haven't. Look! You can still order it online and save a bunch of money!
Not bad, but not as low as Amazon's price would have been. Amazon sells D&D books with a MSRP of $29.99 for less than $20. I do use CoolStuff as one source for DDM purchases though.
You said that Wizards took away your choice to save money. They have not. $29.99 D&D books typically go for $19.77 on Amazon. I don't think $1.22 is something to be upset about. You're still saving $8.96, which is a significant discount off of retail.
I got mine at my FLGS for $16.50 since I get a DM discount. So there is another option to explore.
This is a good example of people protesting an unpopular decision. Lack of choice is at issue here. Some people want to support their FLGS. Fine. Just don't make those of us who want to save money suffer for it. I have friends who would support their FLGS even if Amazon were giving away product. That is their choice. My choice is to save money, but Wizards of the Coast has taken that choice away from me.
If you read the thread, most protested the lack of online sale points, because then they may not have access to it, which could be a valid point, had it not been refuted time and again throught the thread, and now with hard links.
Your argument has no merit at all; with that you can argue that because they dont give it for free, you cannot save money, so they took that choice from you.
EDIT: Oh wait, i now saw your posting number, you must be one who cannot me named; never mind, then.
And for the moderator, my sentence in the previous post wasnt in anyway offensive, nor was i singling out anybody; however, it appears that some words (one of which you yourself use in your follow-up post), which are not even in any context offensive, seems to be banned in this forum, which is a shame, because, as its obvious, such politics does nothing to fix the underlying problem.
My choice is to save money, but Wizards of the Coast has taken that choice away from me.
No they haven't. Look! You can still order it online and save a bunch of money!
Not bad, but not as low as Amazon's price would have been. Amazon sells D&D books with a MSRP of $29.99 for less than $20. I do use CoolStuff as one source for DDM purchases though.
You said that Wizards took away your choice to save money. They have not. $29.99 D&D books typically go for $19.77 on Amazon. I don't think $1.22 is something to be upset about. You're still saving $8.96, which is a significant discount off of retail.
I got mine at my FLGS for $16.50 since I get a DM discount. So there is another option to explore.
It is indeed a savings, but not the amount of savings I normally have the choice to make. The $1.22 may not seem like much, but in the end it is all the $1.22's added up that make a difference. We are obviously not going to agree on this, but I do applaud you for getting such a good deal. I wish that was available to me.
If you read the thread, most protested the lack of online sale points, because then they may not have access to it, which could be a valid point, had it not been refuted time and again throught the thread, and now with hard links.
I don't recall making any statement about what other people were protesting. Only that it is a good example of people protesting an unpopular decision. You have read more into my statement than was there. The price and choice arguments are my own.
Your argument has no merit at all; with that you can argue that because they dont give it for free, you cannot save money, so they took that choice from you.
Once again your are simply wrong. I would never argue that they aren't giving away their products. I have been able for something like 15 years to order D&D books from Amazon.com for a greatly reduced price. This month I could not.
It is indeed a savings, but not the amount of savings I normally have the choice to make. The $1.22 may not seem like much, but in the end it is all the $1.22's added up that make a difference. We are obviously not going to agree on this, but I do applaud you for getting such a good deal. I wish that was available to me.
But the $1.22's are not adding up. They are for this one book that they made exclusive.
But the $1.22's are not adding up. They are for this one book that they made exclusive.
I was speaking in a more general "thrift in a recession" sense. A tank of gas costs an extra $1.22, my water bill is an extra $1.22, groceries cost me an extra $1.22, etc.
But the $1.22's are not adding up. They are for this one book that they made exclusive.
I was speaking in a more general "thrift in a recession" sense. A tank of gas costs an extra $1.22, my water bill is an extra $1.22, groceries cost me an extra $1.22, etc.
Yeah, I wonder why I didn't make that connection... That goalpost got moved off the planet.
Then I would expect that you have posts of equal resentment/disappointment on the message boards for your gas company? Water company? Grocery store? I doubt you do, but they are far more reprehensible with their pricing and gouging than Wizards' one-time shot with MME.
Sorry to say, but all of this complaining on this topic is turning a mountain out of a molehill.
But the $1.22's are not adding up. They are for this one book that they made exclusive.
I was speaking in a more general "thrift in a recession" sense. A tank of gas costs an extra $1.22, my water bill is an extra $1.22, groceries cost me an extra $1.22, etc.
Yeah, I wonder why I didn't make that connection... That goalpost got moved off the planet.
Then I would expect that you have posts of equal resentment/disappointment on the message boards for your gas company? Water company? Grocery store? I doubt you do, but they are far more reprehensible with their pricing and gouging than Wizards' one-time shot with MME.
Sorry to say, but all of this complaining on this topic is turning a mountain out of a molehill.
My point is simply that I don't care if the difference is 12 cents. More is more and I don't like it. Furthermore I don't have to like it just because you point out somewhere I can get almost as good a deal. Your logic is fallacious. I am allowed to complain...which I have done in one thread. You'd think there would be more reprehensible posters out there for you to berate who appear to open new threads daily on the same tired old topics.
As far as this being a one-shot type of thing...it is true we don't have anything like a precedent to go on, but why do you think a company might try something like this? A change in 15 years of company policy is likely a test to see if it is worth changing to this model for all releases. I have no proof that this is the case, but I think it is better to make clear now that I am opposed to this type of marketing, than later when it could be too late.
My point is simply that I don't care if the difference is 12 cents. More is more and I don't like it. Furthermore I don't have to like it just because you point out somewhere I can get almost as good a deal. Your logic is fallacious. I am allowed to complain...which I have done in one thread. You'd think there would be more reprehensible posters out there for you to berate who appear to open new threads daily on the same tired old topics.
No, your point was not that there was a difference of 12 cents. Your initial point was that Wizards took away your option to save money. They have done no such thing. You simply cannot save as much money as you have been accustomed to in the past. You are still saving money, and a significant amount, off of retail.
I also do not see where I have berated you one iota. We have had a discussion, I have countered your points civilly and respectfully. Please do not make yourself out to be some kind of victim, and please do not accuse me of something that I have not done. You are the one that has changed their point several times now just because extremely valid alternatives have been provided and your points successfully refuted, and you suggest I have somehow berated you?
That is incredibly poor form of you.
To use your argument that I am still saving a significant amount off of retail. This is true, but I am from my perspective and the point I am arguing, saving a significantly less amount than I was. For what I paid for the book ($24.00) my savings were cut roughly in half. You may not think it is a big deal...I do. And that is excatly the bottom line in our discussion. A simple disagreement. I think you have every right to believe what you do on this topic. Please allow me the same.
I find it ironic in a business sense that there is no need for this discussion at all if the book is simply available everywhere as they have been for all the time leading up to this month.
And that is hardly Wizards' fault. Blaming Wizards because Amazon tries to undercut every reseller in existence is blaming the wrong company. The real problem is Amazon for creating a sense of entitlement in people.
And yet there is absolutely no guarantee whatsoever that if Amazon did sell MME, that they would sell it for $19.77, $20.77, $24.00 like you paid, or even retail. You can make that assumption based upon past experience, but it is still not a guarantee.
And that is hardly Wizards' fault. Blaming Wizards because Amazon tries to undercut every reseller in existence is blaming the wrong company. The real problem is Amazon for creating a sense of entitlement in people.
Again that is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. I look at it differently. Amazon makes it possible for me to thoroughly enjoy my hobby and own most if not all of the material printed for it. In a world without Amazon, I might not even try to keep up with everything WotC prints for D&D. In fact I might instead opt for a system that has only a small number of books, and then WotC loses my business entirely. Also a very valid opinion. I blame Wizards because their decision is indicative of backward thinking IMHO. While I am nostalgic for the past of brick and mortar stores, penny candy, and milk men, all of those things are gone...or soon will be. The business of all businesses is to get their goods and/or services into the hands of as many customers as possible. This decision is counter to that goal, and that is why I blame them.
As I said much earlier we should probably just agree to disagree. I am not happy with this little experiment regardless of the reasons behind it, and I am making my displeasure known. You don't have to agree, in fact I suspect a significant amount of people will not. On the other hand a significant amount of people do. So now it is in WotCs hands to make a decision. My future as a customer of this company hangs in the balance.
And yet there is absolutely no guarantee whatsoever that if Amazon did sell MME, that they would sell it for $19.77, $20.77, $24.00 like you paid, or even retail. You can make that assumption based upon past experience, but it is still not a guarantee.
And that is hardly Wizards' fault. Blaming Wizards because Amazon tries to undercut every reseller in existence is blaming the wrong company. The real problem is Amazon for creating a sense of entitlement in people.
Again that is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. I look at it differently. Amazon makes it possible for me to thoroughly enjoy my hobby and own most if not all of the material printed for it. In a world without Amazon, I might not even try to keep up with everything WotC prints for D&D. In fact I might instead opt for a system that has only a small number of books, and then WotC loses my business entirely. Also a very valid opinion. I blame Wizards because their decision is indicative of backward thinking IMHO. While I am nostalgic for the past of brick and mortar stores, penny candy, and milk men, all of those things are gone...or soon will be. The business of all businesses is to get their goods and/or services into the hands of as many customers as possible. This decision is counter to that goal, and that is why I blame them.
As I said much earlier we should probably just agree to disagree. I am not happy with this little experiment regardless of the reasons behind it, and I am making my displeasure known. You don't have to agree, in fact I suspect a significant amount of people will not. On the other hand a significant amount of people do. So now it is in WotCs hands to make a decision. My future as a customer of this company hangs in the balance.
While I agree with a lot of what you said, and leave it to everyone to decide for themselves how important a certain sum in savings is........
some businesses do not try "to get their goods and/or services into the hands of as many customers as possible." Many businesses limit distribution for various reasons..... to create pent-up demand, to create exclusivity, to not flood the market, to maintain cache, etc....
In most cases (other than limited ability to create more product), they sacrifice short-tem profits for either longer-term larger profits or sustainable profits.
WoTC made a decision that many people have theories on why they did it, whether it would work, etc.... The one reason, I'm fairly certain of, is they didn't do it to screw over there customers.
The business of all businesses is to get their goods and/or services into the hands of as many customers as possible. This decision is counter to that goal, and that is why I blame them.
There have been plenty of very plausible responses why that vision is not only short sighted but also wrong.
Regarding the availability and visibility of the product, the result is the same as if Amazon itself would sell it, since its done through Amazon Marketplace.
That leaves the question of price, which is an increase, yes, but which comes with benefits for the premier partners of Wizards (the FLGSs), the ones which may actually do something to promote the hobby, which helps the hobby as a whole.
WoTC made a decision that many people have theories on why they did it, whether it would work, etc.... The one reason, I'm fairly certain of, is they didn't do it to screw over there customers.
I'd agree with a lot of what you said. As far as their intent goes, it really doesn't matter. The end result is what matters to me, and that was...screwed!
There have been plenty of very plausible responses why that vision is not only short sighted but also wrong.
Regarding the availability and visibility of the product, the result is the same as if Amazon itself would sell it, since its done through Amazon Marketplace.
That leaves the question of price, which is an increase, yes, but which comes with benefits for the premier partners of Wizards (the FLGSs), the ones which may actually do something to promote the hobby, which helps the hobby as a whole.
I would argue that having their product on Amazon.com alone does more to promote the hobby than any FLGS, or all of the FLGSs combined ever could do. Beside that I have pointed out that FLGSs are not the customers of WotC. We are.
I would argue that having their product on Amazon.com alone does more to promote the hobby than any FLGS, or all of the FLGSs combined ever could do.
Why is that?
Doess Amazon organizes encounters, provides space for groups to play, display banners on their homepage?
Beside that I have pointed out that FLGSs are not the customers of WotC. We are.
Read my post, i wrote PARTNERS, not clients; as in members of the distribution chain.
Word-of-mouth, while indeed quite effective, is, for the most part, too slow; while the Internet has helped it (and social networks gave it a big boost), it also brought to the front a thousand other interests, each one bombarding us constantly.
Which is why publicity, which is done both by the publisher and the other members of the distribution chain, is still as valid today as it was before.
And as pointed out, those specialized venues can give much more airtime (to use an arcaic term, perhaps eyeballs is a better term) than a generic mega-online store like Amazon, which specializes in other approaches.
Most gaming stores that I have encountered (and all of the ones in my current city) do nothing to prepetuate the hobby. They are exclusive clubs that cater to their regulars and are either indifferent or outright hostile to newcomers or even casual visitors.
I have seen quite the opposite in my area stores. Maybe there are just less friendly people in your neck of the woods.
All it does is alienate people in rural areas, abroad, and in cities without a gaming store.
This has already been proven to be completely inaccurate in this thread. MME is most certainly available on the internet and can be shipped right to your door.
All it does is alienate people in rural areas, abroad, and in cities without a gaming store. Worse, it may prevent them from buying the book at all, which hurts the industry as well as gamers.
See here, here and here.
And plz help stop this nonsense by not spreading it.
Most gaming stores that I have encountered (and all of the ones in my current city) do nothing to prepetuate the hobby. They are exclusive clubs that cater to their regulars and are either indifferent or outright hostile to newcomers or even casual visitors. Also, since they are generally running close to broke, they are generally in out-of-the-way places with little or no foot traffic, so cold walk-ins are pretty much nil.
So, your game stores are run by terrible businessmen.
Why is that?
Doess Amazon organizes encounters, provides space for groups to play, display banners on their homepage?
Because they have vastly larger exposure than any FLGS. I know people who are not the kind of people to go into gaming/hobby/comic stores who play D&D precisely because they saw it on Amazon and thought it sounded cool. If you want the hobby to be dominated and exclusive only to people who frequent the brick and mortar stores of this type then D&D will forever be religated to a subset of a fringe hobby (a large subset of that fringe to be sure). Amazon has done more to bring D&D into the mainstream than anything TSR, WotC or Hasbro has done to date including in store organized play.
Read my post, i wrote PARTNERS, not clients; as in members of the distribution chain.
Word-of-mouth, while indeed quite effective, is, for the most part, too slow; while the Internet has helped it (and social networks gave it a big boost), it also brought to the front a thousand other interests, each one bombarding us constantly.
Which is why publicity, which is done both by the publisher and the other members of the distribution chain, is still as valid today as it was before.
And as pointed out, those specialized venues can give much more airtime (to use an arcaic term, perhaps eyeballs is a better term) than a generic mega-online store like Amazon, which specializes in other approaches.
But only to people who are already disposed to visit those types of establishments. Amazon does far more than that by showing the product to people who aren't already gamers, hobbyists or comic book enthusiasts. I worked in a FLGS for years in High School and College. There was not a broad cross section of the general population coming into the store. I saw the same faces week after week with very little variation. Your premise is just plain wrong.
Most gaming stores that I have encountered (and all of the ones in my current city) do nothing to prepetuate the hobby. They are exclusive clubs that cater to their regulars and are either indifferent or outright hostile to newcomers or even casual visitors. Also, since they are generally running close to broke, they are generally in out-of-the-way places with little or no foot traffic, so cold walk-ins are pretty much nil. What brings new people into the hobby are individual gamers and their groups. If Wizards wants the industry to grow beyond word-of-mouth, they are free to do some advertising in mainstream media to increase awareness, but restricting sales to gaming stores isn't the answer. All it does is alienate people in rural areas, abroad, and in cities without a gaming store. Worse, it may prevent them from buying the book at all, which hurts the industry as well as gamers.
This! Never in my years as a Comic/Gaming store clerk did I ever see anyone come in, look at the gaming racks, ask me what this was and purchase anything from the rack. The people coming in to buy D&D books were already gamers.
All it does is alienate people in rural areas, abroad, and in cities without a gaming store.
This has already been proven to be completely inaccurate in this thread. MME is most certainly available on the internet and can be shipped right to your door.
It most certainly has not been proven. You totally have discounted as irrelevant the inconvenience it still poses to people who now must go elsewhere (even elsewhere online) to get the book. If WotC decided they wouldn't allow your FLGS to carry a certain book, you would be up in arms, even if there was another store a short distance away where you could get the book (just without your DM discount). Amazon.com is my FLGS and it is alienating, and infuriating that I cannot give my favorite gaming store my business for this book.
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