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More Dual Primary Classes in the Future?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Tharag_Bocc
Jul 10, 2009 4:11:10 In the latest podcast, about Divine Power, the authors talk about dual primary attribute classes, most notably the cleric. They even make mention of some of the criticism those classes have received, and while I'm sure it will disappoint a sizable vocal segment, the authors do not acknowledge that such classes were a mistake and in fact speak of how the mechanic allows a class to convey multiple archetypes and to work with a wider base of optimal races.

Anyway, to me this suggests that the PH2's lack of dual primary classes is not due to the folks at WotC deciding that it was a bad mechanic, but instead deciding that it was merely not an appropriate mechanic for any of the featured classes. This gives me renewed hope that we may see more such classes in future releases (such as PH3 or the upcoming assassin).
#2
psk20
Jul 10, 2009 7:22:56 I thought that their rationale seemed to work relatively well for the cleric, but I'm still not too sure how it applies to the paladin. As they said, unlike the cleric, the paladin doesn't have a bipolar nature at all ... so I'm not too sure why they need to use strength and charisma as primaries. In order to open up the class to... shifters?

I'm not too worried though. If they want to do a dual-stat class in the futute I just hope they ensure that there are enough powers and feats etc to support both builds fully right from the get-go. Strength pallies have been out in the cold for a wee while now.
#3
Tharag_Bocc
Jul 10, 2009 8:22:18
I'm not too worried though. If they want to do a dual-stat class in the futute I just hope they ensure that there are enough powers and feats etc to support both builds fully right from the get-go. Strength pallies have been out in the cold for a wee while now.

This I agree with (especially for the paladin which is both a dual primary class and has the fewest powers in the PH1). They really should have cut some space from fighter, rogue, and/or warlord to make room for more paladin powers, especially since those three classes were all going to see the first power source supplement. At the very least divine should have been the second power book instead of arcane (might have also made it possible to get some artificer coverage outside of the EPG). This ramble however is straying off topic.
#4
famousfoxking
Jul 10, 2009 8:52:02
This gives me renewed hope that we may see more such classes in future releases (such as PH3 or the upcoming assassin).

I certainly hope we do. I really like the split primary mechanic.
#5
Tzepish
Jul 10, 2009 18:24:54 Split Primary Stat is okay once you've got other books adding to your power selections pool, because it effectively halves the amount of choices you have, which kind of sucks. After Divine Power, the Paladin will basically be two extremely similar classes, each with the same number of options as the Fighter *before* Martial Power.

I think they went ahead and dropped the dual primaries from PHB2 because it wasn't good design. The Avenger could have easily been Dex/Wis, or the Warden Str/Wis, if they had intended to continue making dual stat classes.
#6
Cyber-Dave
Jul 10, 2009 20:31:14 I really like the classes with twin primary stats. And, I don't think that they limit options. It is very possible to build a character with two stats strong enough to use as primary attack stats.
#7
salla
Jul 10, 2009 21:44:23 The only problem I really had with the Dual Primary was the fact that they only included 2 at-will attacks for each one, meaning humans had to take a power they potentially couldn't use well.
#8
Tharag_Bocc
Jul 10, 2009 23:03:57
But not if in the paladins case where you actually need WIS to boost so many other abilities.

So many? Not really. Not counting class features, the paladin has 67 powers in PH1, 17 of which have wisdom riders, leaving 50 powers that don't.
#9
Tzepish
Jul 11, 2009 12:22:02 Sure, you could neglect Wisdom and simply choose no powers that make mention of it in order to have a higher STR/CHA and thus, a higher pool from which you can choose your powers. Basically, you are trading away from your pool any powers that make mention of Wisdom, and gaining all powers that depend upon the other ability score, albeit most likely at a penalty (one of STR/CHA will likely be higher than the other).

The question is, are there any STR and CHA powers that work *so well* together that this trade off is worth it? If your STR is higher than your CHA, are there any CHA powers that *so good* that you would choose to take them at a -1 (or more) penalty to hit and damage? And if so, why aren't you simply a CHA-focused Paladin? Are there both STR and CHA powers that are good enough to take at penalty, in addition to the other things you're giving up (WIS powers, potentially CON for hit points, potentially an 18 primary stat in order to increase your secondary stat - resulting in an effective penalty to ALL of your attacks)?

For the record, I actually like dual stat classes when your pool of selectable powers is large enough. The Warlock is fine, because of Arcane Power and the billions of powers it has gained through Dragon Magazine (I swear, the Warlock must be WotC's favorite class...). However, in order to have been executed properly, they needed the following *from launch*:

1.) A huge selection of powers, like the Warlock has now, so that single-stat focused builds have actual options. Arcane Power and Dragon Mag fixed this for the Warlock, and Divine Power will help the Cleric and Paladin.

2.) Powers across the different ability scores that are decent alone, but very powerful in combination with each other. This would make the dual stat character (such as the Paladin focusing on both STR and CHA) viable if the combos were worth trading away your hit and damage bonuses. As far as I can tell, this hasn't been done (I don't see a lot of STR/CHA Paladins on the CharOp forum).
#10
Tharag_Bocc
Jul 11, 2009 14:21:20
1.) A huge selection of powers, like the Warlock has now, so that single-stat focused builds have actual options. Arcane Power and Dragon Mag fixed this for the Warlock, and Divine Power will help the Cleric and Paladin.

A selection of powers equal to what the warlock has now (nearly 10+ at each power level) is nice but not required. The PH1 paladin, however, is still dreadly short on options (bearly more than 3 per power level). The minimum for a a dual primay class is about 4 per power level, evenly diveded between both atributes (numbers the cleric comes much closer to achiving, which is one reason it works better than the paladin)

The question is, are there any STR and CHA powers that work *so well* together that this trade off is worth it?

I don't think it always has to be a matter of being "worth it"; sometimes it's enough to just be interesting.

Also, beyond powers, skills can also be an important consideration. STR+WIS, CHA+WIS, or STR+CHA; each combination favors a different skill set. Unfortunately due to the paladin's skill list they favor only a CHA+WIS skill sets, which seems to be reflected in the classes power distribution (but that of course is a flaw in the design of the PH1 only paladin, not dual attribute classes in general).

[INDENT]STR=20 (+WIS=5)
CHA=35 (+WIS=12)[/INDENT]

The paladin (using PH1 content only) is pretty much a perfect example of how not to publish a dual attribute class. The warlock wasn't much better off before supplements either. The cleric pulled it off reasonably well. The ranger might well have pulled it off best (though in someways it also cheated by having many powers that work for both of it's primaries).

[INDENT]*Not only does the ranger possibly cheat, but it also got more powers than either the paladin or the warlock. Given its more versatile powers and the fact that the authors must have known Martial Power would follow shortly enough, one must wounder why the ranger's page count wasn't cut so that the paladin and warlock could receive more powers.[/INDENT]
#11
Marcotic
Jul 11, 2009 14:37:49 to above, I think the reason was they liked rangers more, or they thought it would be a more popular class, or most likely, the ranger class encompasses many archetypes, so they had to make sure to cover as many as possible. Just a guess though.
#12
Tzepish
Jul 11, 2009 15:00:02 Good point about skills, Tharag Bocc. I hadn't considered that.

And yes, the Ranger does effectively dodge most of the problems because he still has access to almost all of his powers, albeit only one "mode" of each... but he still had four options per level (as opposed to 2 or 1 that the Paladin has... or zero).
#13
mkill
Jul 12, 2009 2:22:43 Dual attack stat classes aren't much of a problem if they are designed right. I've never seen anyone complain about the Str/Dex split of the ranger. That said, it would still be cool if Str-based rangers could use Str with their powers with heavy thrown weapons (easy houserule, though), or Dex-based melee powers so bow rangers gain some versatility.

The only class where it's botched right now is the Strength Paladin, which suffers from two necessary secondary stats (Cha for his mark punishment and Wis for power riders and Lay on Hands) and lack of powers (only one Str-based Lvl 5 daily, which is awful, and no 9th level daily at all). It's safe to assume these problems are solved with Divine Power.

I agree with the devs that split-stat classes have advantages, too. With a single-stat class, you have a 33% chance that any given race has a +2 bonus in your attack stat, with a choice of two stats it's 60% (assuming that stat bonuses are evenly distributed among races). And it allows more diverse character concepts, such as Paladin as an enlightened, battle-hardened warrior (Str) and as an inspiring force of good (Cha).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Tharag_Bocc Jul 10, 2009 4:11:10	In the latest podcast, about Divine Power, the authors talk about dual primary attribute classes, most notably the cleric. They even make mention of some of the criticism those classes have received, and while I'm sure it will disappoint a sizable vocal segment, the authors do not acknowledge that such classes were a mistake and in fact speak of how the mechanic allows a class to convey multiple archetypes and to work with a wider base of optimal races. Anyway, to me this suggests that the PH2's lack of dual primary classes is not due to the folks at WotC deciding that it was a bad mechanic, but instead deciding that it was merely not an appropriate mechanic for any of the featured classes. This gives me renewed hope that we may see more such classes in future releases (such as PH3 or the upcoming assassin).
#2 psk20 Jul 10, 2009 7:22:56	I thought that their rationale seemed to work relatively well for the cleric, but I'm still not too sure how it applies to the paladin. As they said, unlike the cleric, the paladin doesn't have a bipolar nature at all ... so I'm not too sure why they need to use strength and charisma as primaries. In order to open up the class to... shifters? I'm not too worried though. If they want to do a dual-stat class in the futute I just hope they ensure that there are enough powers and feats etc to support both builds fully right from the get-go. Strength pallies have been out in the cold for a wee while now.
#3 Tharag_Bocc Jul 10, 2009 8:22:18	I'm not too worried though. If they want to do a dual-stat class in the futute I just hope they ensure that there are enough powers and feats etc to support both builds fully right from the get-go. Strength pallies have been out in the cold for a wee while now. This I agree with (especially for the paladin which is both a dual primary class and has the fewest powers in the PH1). They really should have cut some space from fighter, rogue, and/or warlord to make room for more paladin powers, especially since those three classes were all going to see the first power source supplement. At the very least divine should have been the second power book instead of arcane (might have also made it possible to get some artificer coverage outside of the EPG). This ramble however is straying off topic.
#4 famousfoxking Jul 10, 2009 8:52:02	This gives me renewed hope that we may see more such classes in future releases (such as PH3 or the upcoming assassin). I certainly hope we do. I really like the split primary mechanic.
#5 Tzepish Jul 10, 2009 18:24:54	Split Primary Stat is okay once you've got other books adding to your power selections pool, because it effectively halves the amount of choices you have, which kind of sucks. After Divine Power, the Paladin will basically be two extremely similar classes, each with the same number of options as the Fighter before Martial Power. I think they went ahead and dropped the dual primaries from PHB2 because it wasn't good design. The Avenger could have easily been Dex/Wis, or the Warden Str/Wis, if they had intended to continue making dual stat classes.
#6 Cyber-Dave Jul 10, 2009 20:31:14	I really like the classes with twin primary stats. And, I don't think that they limit options. It is very possible to build a character with two stats strong enough to use as primary attack stats.
#7 salla Jul 10, 2009 21:44:23	The only problem I really had with the Dual Primary was the fact that they only included 2 at-will attacks for each one, meaning humans had to take a power they potentially couldn't use well.
#8 Tharag_Bocc Jul 10, 2009 23:03:57	But not if in the paladins case where you actually need WIS to boost so many other abilities. So many? Not really. Not counting class features, the paladin has 67 powers in PH1, 17 of which have wisdom riders, leaving 50 powers that don't.
#9 Tzepish Jul 11, 2009 12:22:02	Sure, you could neglect Wisdom and simply choose no powers that make mention of it in order to have a higher STR/CHA and thus, a higher pool from which you can choose your powers. Basically, you are trading away from your pool any powers that make mention of Wisdom, and gaining all powers that depend upon the other ability score, albeit most likely at a penalty (one of STR/CHA will likely be higher than the other). The question is, are there any STR and CHA powers that work so well together that this trade off is worth it? If your STR is higher than your CHA, are there any CHA powers that so good that you would choose to take them at a -1 (or more) penalty to hit and damage? And if so, why aren't you simply a CHA-focused Paladin? Are there both STR and CHA powers that are good enough to take at penalty, in addition to the other things you're giving up (WIS powers, potentially CON for hit points, potentially an 18 primary stat in order to increase your secondary stat - resulting in an effective penalty to ALL of your attacks)? For the record, I actually like dual stat classes when your pool of selectable powers is large enough. The Warlock is fine, because of Arcane Power and the billions of powers it has gained through Dragon Magazine (I swear, the Warlock must be WotC's favorite class...). However, in order to have been executed properly, they needed the following from launch: 1.) A huge selection of powers, like the Warlock has now, so that single-stat focused builds have actual options. Arcane Power and Dragon Mag fixed this for the Warlock, and Divine Power will help the Cleric and Paladin. 2.) Powers across the different ability scores that are decent alone, but very powerful in combination with each other. This would make the dual stat character (such as the Paladin focusing on both STR and CHA) viable if the combos were worth trading away your hit and damage bonuses. As far as I can tell, this hasn't been done (I don't see a lot of STR/CHA Paladins on the CharOp forum).
#10 Tharag_Bocc Jul 11, 2009 14:21:20	1.) A huge selection of powers, like the Warlock has now, so that single-stat focused builds have actual options. Arcane Power and Dragon Mag fixed this for the Warlock, and Divine Power will help the Cleric and Paladin. A selection of powers equal to what the warlock has now (nearly 10+ at each power level) is nice but not required. The PH1 paladin, however, is still dreadly short on options (bearly more than 3 per power level). The minimum for a a dual primay class is about 4 per power level, evenly diveded between both atributes (numbers the cleric comes much closer to achiving, which is one reason it works better than the paladin) The question is, are there any STR and CHA powers that work so well together that this trade off is worth it? I don't think it always has to be a matter of being "worth it"; sometimes it's enough to just be interesting. Also, beyond powers, skills can also be an important consideration. STR+WIS, CHA+WIS, or STR+CHA; each combination favors a different skill set. Unfortunately due to the paladin's skill list they favor only a CHA+WIS skill sets, which seems to be reflected in the classes power distribution (but that of course is a flaw in the design of the PH1 only paladin, not dual attribute classes in general). [INDENT]STR=20 (+WIS=5) CHA=35 (+WIS=12)[/INDENT] The paladin (using PH1 content only) is pretty much a perfect example of how not to publish a dual attribute class. The warlock wasn't much better off before supplements either. The cleric pulled it off reasonably well. The ranger might well have pulled it off best (though in someways it also cheated by having many powers that work for both of it's primaries). [INDENT]*Not only does the ranger possibly cheat, but it also got more powers than either the paladin or the warlock. Given its more versatile powers and the fact that the authors must have known Martial Power would follow shortly enough, one must wounder why the ranger's page count wasn't cut so that the paladin and warlock could receive more powers.[/INDENT]
#11 Marcotic Jul 11, 2009 14:37:49	to above, I think the reason was they liked rangers more, or they thought it would be a more popular class, or most likely, the ranger class encompasses many archetypes, so they had to make sure to cover as many as possible. Just a guess though.
#12 Tzepish Jul 11, 2009 15:00:02	Good point about skills, Tharag Bocc. I hadn't considered that. And yes, the Ranger does effectively dodge most of the problems because he still has access to almost all of his powers, albeit only one "mode" of each... but he still had four options per level (as opposed to 2 or 1 that the Paladin has... or zero).
#13 mkill Jul 12, 2009 2:22:43	Dual attack stat classes aren't much of a problem if they are designed right. I've never seen anyone complain about the Str/Dex split of the ranger. That said, it would still be cool if Str-based rangers could use Str with their powers with heavy thrown weapons (easy houserule, though), or Dex-based melee powers so bow rangers gain some versatility. The only class where it's botched right now is the Strength Paladin, which suffers from two necessary secondary stats (Cha for his mark punishment and Wis for power riders and Lay on Hands) and lack of powers (only one Str-based Lvl 5 daily, which is awful, and no 9th level daily at all). It's safe to assume these problems are solved with Divine Power. I agree with the devs that split-stat classes have advantages, too. With a single-stat class, you have a 33% chance that any given race has a +2 bonus in your attack stat, with a choice of two stats it's 60% (assuming that stat bonuses are evenly distributed among races). And it allows more diverse character concepts, such as Paladin as an enlightened, battle-hardened warrior (Str) and as an inspiring force of good (Cha).