As a DM, my players love the new combat system. The wizard and cleric no longer just sit around after they've used up their Magic Missiles and Cure Light Wounds. Leave the combat alone.
What they miss from the old game (and propably a lot of the others who don't like 4E) is the decrease in role playing. Sorry, the Skill challenges don't work for us. I'd like to see a book with expanded, more detailed rules and tables for using skills as role-playing. As an example, I'd love to have rules and tables for using Insight, Streetwise, Bluff, Diplomacy, etc. to affect the person you're selling your new-found gems and jewelry to (to get a better price) and the same with buying magic items (what % chance of a shop having exactly what you want and can you get him to lower his price).
Would also like more detailed charts on monster knowledge checks. My group loves to find out about what they're fighting. Learning it all at once with one good role takes the fun away. I don't really have time to make out my own charts, but I'd like to have my players chec k for more specific information. What's a monsters weakest/ strongest defense ( a roll of 10 reveals nothing, 15 tells weakest or strongest, 20 lists them in order, 25 gives specifics). There could be pluses to your roll for having fought that exact monster before, a monster of that type, or familiarity with a monsters role (artillery, spellcaster, etc). Rechargeable monster powers need to be tweaked as well, with a power returning in d4, d6, or d8 rounds and players being able to do a check to find out the result. I wish I had charts like this for a monsters powers, special abilities, immunities, hit points, etc. but I don't have time.
We also miss the fun of identifying magic items. The trial and error of using a found item made for some entertaining experiences. How about a table for what happens each time you try one. More detailed skill checks could be made for travel (using good roles to avoid getting lost, wandering monsters, etc), making friends/ enemies, healing, stealthing/ surprise.
We are also not real crazy about the present Saving Throw rules. Rolling a 10 to end the effect from a 1st level kobold wizard or a 15th level monster just doesn't seem right. And how about different ratings for locks to pick instead of 25 opens anything.
I guess what I'm looking for is a book (or online article) with optional rules to make the game more role-playing friendly. Any thoughts?
If you want Monster Knowledge rolls to work like that (honestly, I hardly use them), then do it the way you just said you wanted them to work. You don't need a new book to do that.
Regarding magic items, the PHB1 says, "Some magic items might be a bit harder to identify, such as cursed or nonstandard items, or powerful magical artifacts. Your DM might ask for an Arcana check to determine their properties, or you might even need to go on a special quest to find a ritual to identify or to unlock the powers of a unique item." Personally, I always require Arcana checks to identify magic items. It makes magic items a little more... special. Figuring out what they do over a short rest seems like a cop out.
Nature, Heal, and Stealth work like that already, along with Insight, Streetwise, Bluff, and Diplomacy. Funny story with trying to get better prices off merchants. In our first 4e campaign, the characters found a sword they didn't want, so they went off to sell it. We had found this gnomish merchant (who I remember being very sad). He had offered us a terrible amount for the item, so we started using skills to sway him. An Insight check revealed from his reaction to us and other things in the environment that he really wanted to be an adventurer. So our fighter was like, "You know, gnomish merchant, that sword makes you look pretty heroic." Bluff check. The cleric said something along the lines of, "Yeah, that like old gnome hero!" History check. The gnome started to lift the sword in a Conan-esque pose and my wizard used Light on the sword to, uh, make the whole thing a little more awe inspiring. The gnome screamed, "ADVENTURE!!" and hauled ass out of the store. We took what gold he had in the store (just a little more than we were expecting) and took off. He always popped in and out of the campaign, more often that not, our characters trying to save him from his stupid little adventures.
At the end of the day, D&D rules are a just a suggestion. You don't need new books to tell you how to use Nature to make sure you don't get lost or how to make identifying magic items a little more intriguing. Because WotC would probably mess that hypothetical book up. ;)
(I'm sorry if I rambled or didn't make any sense. I just woke up.
I'm allowed to ramble.)The game is what you make it. If you want to role-play, then do so. Rules can be tweaked/adjusted for the sake of better role-play or more fun if needed. I don't see what in 4E is supposedly holding people back from unleashing their inner Shakespeare.
I have some good friends who keep trying to tell me all this stuff that some other game has which 4E doesn't, to include role-playing, negotiations, hiring mercenaries, collecting intelligence, forming strategies for your next mission, dynamic combat, so on and so forth. The game is what you make it; if you want those elements in your 4E game, the group should discuss it and figure out how to better incorporate all of that.
If you want to chat up the NPCs a lot more, great. What's stopping that from happening?
For me, what has stopped some role-play in my group is when I handwave what I see as trivial BS time-wasting in order to move on to the meat of the session. No, I don't really care to figure out if the dwarf merchant that the PCs just saved is going to give them a 20% discount instead of a 10%. Look at that, the player made a good argument for why he wants to make the attempt and a generic description of what he's trying to say, and so I agree and move on.
Likewise with random encounter tables, rituals, knowledge checks, etc. If you can think of a way to incorporate more role-play, go for it. If your players are itching to have more conversations and use more skills, have at it. More power to you. The rules are a canvas (and you don't even really need all of them if you don't want them); you supply and apply the paint. Make it the masterpiece that your group wants.
Dear WotC,
In the wake of the product announcements and de-announcements coming out of D&D Experience last month, I'd like to float some reactions and requests. This post was inspired by the "What you would/wouldn't buy" thread elsewhere on the "Future Releases" forum, but I wanted to put a little more explanation into my list than seemed to be customary for that thread. So, here are some things you haven't announced that I would love to see over the next couple of years. Perhaps I should add that I tend to buy D&D products voraciously … I've even bought some Fortune Cards … so maybe I am less discriminating than many of your customers. Take that for whatever it's worth.
Player option books. I don't object to the direction you seem to be going with thematic books like Heroes of Shadow and Heroes of the Feywild as opposed to, say, a Player's Handbook 4, though I strongly prefer to get new rulebooks in the traditional hardbound format, and I hope that you won't "abandon" the classic 4e classes and modes of classes moving forward. I like Essentials classes just fine, but don't want earlier, under-supported classes to get left behind. I'm not terribly excited about the new races slated for Heroes of Shadow, however; perhaps in future releases you could look more at beefing up existing monster races as PC options—for example, giving orcs, hobgoblins, gnolls, etc. (more) racial feats, racial paragon paths, and so on. I'd also like to see race books similar to the dragonborn and tiefling softcovers for shardminds, wilden, minotaurs, githzerai, and especially devas. Of course, a lot of that type of content can be delivered via DDI (to which I have subscribed since the day subscriptions went live), but I'd still like to see print offerings as well.
DM books and boxed sets. I'm very much looking forward to Shadowfell and would love to see you do something similar for the Feywild in the very near future. In addition to these, I would really welcome a Dungeon Master's Guide 3 focused on epic-tier play.
Dungeon Tiles. I love Dungeon Tiles and use them extensively. As mentioned above, though, I have a very large collection already. A Dungeon Tiles Master Set: Caverns could be a real hit. I really like the direction you're moving with the DN series, giving us niche environments that are also tied by name to locations in established D&D worlds. I'll probably buy any Dungeon Tiles products you publish, but after Witchlight Fens, I'd be especially interested in a "sequel" to Icewind Dale (more arctic/tundra tiles), a volcanic/lava themed set, a sea/undersea set, and more village/city exteriors and interiors. I haven't taken to the 3d elements in Harrowing Halls and Deserts of Athas as much as I thought I would; if you put out any more of those, things like complete building exteriors to pair up with The City would be of the most interest to me.
Miniatures. I already own an extensive collection of miniatures, having dabbled in the first couple of sets and having gotten really serious about collecting the minis around Deathknell. Having purchased at least two cases of each of the sets from Deathknell onward, I don't really need more miniatures, but there are still holes that I would like to see filled. In particular, I'd gladly purchase one or more "limited edition" sets or botique sets filling out some of the PC races that are under-represented in DDM at present. It's easy enough to "fudge" a miniature's class, but its race—that's another story. I would jump at the chance to buy a set containing a range of PC-class miniatures for the Player's Handbook 3 races, plus devas and non-martial dragonborn.
Adventures. I'm intrigued by the Gardmore Abbey adventure and plan to buy it, but I'd also be very interested in a Dungeon Delve 2. Now that you have the three Dungeon Tiles master sets in print—and theoretically will be keeping them perpetually in print—the time is ripe for another Dungeon Delve volume that uses layouts built from those tiles. Otherwise, I'm not that much in the market for adventures, although I sometimes buy them for the poster maps.
Card products. As I mentioned above, I have purchased some Fortune Cards, and I'm not afraid to use them … but neither am I all that excited about using them. I'm more intrigued by the despair deck coming in Shadowfell (though why it needs to be card deck instead of a d% table I don't yet understand) and the deck of many things coming in Gardmore Abbey.
Well, that's it … just one DM's idiosyncratic wish list for the future.
Best wishes,
Chris
Ditto to all of this. I would also add a Book/Box of Skill Challenges. Fantasy Flight Games has a new board game out, Mansion of Madness:
www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite...
Check out the video. They have a need mechanic for solving puzzles. Real quick, the example used a set of cards with illustration that can create a circuit. they cards are arranged by the Keeper (their GM) and the players have to use their intelligence score to turn the cards to complete a connected circuit. This same idea ould be used to create a neat set of puzzles for a mega adventure, and as a push for a more elaborate rule set for Skill Challenges... Just a thought.
I've always felt that rules for roleplaying is as necessary as rules for wiping one's &$$.. It's freaking roleplaying, a made up concept, make belief, pretend, so make it up yourself. 4th is as roleplaying friendly as any other roleplaying game. If you are already a 30 or 40 year old male pretending to be a drop dead, gorgeous, busty female Drow, then take the last further step and roleplay skill checks.
Sir, you are awesome.
The rules are intentionally ambiguous for a reason. Either role-play out the skills needed, make up a puzzle mini-game, or what-have-you. It's up to the inventiveness of the DM. Stop being lazy DMs, people.
DMs and Players are for role playing, because without any imagination, nothing is going to happen.
97% of all the role playing in my games, is invented on the fly, and impromptu.
Role playing is not skills challenges.
You don't use charts for role playing.
Yesterday, I needed to resolve a few situations in the game.
We are playing Keep on Shadowfell. And I have two VERY green role gamers in the group. They have rolegamed precisely 3 times in their life
So they want to offload some loot in the form of mundane weapons and armours taken from defeated adversaries. The gear is all entirely schlock. But even schlock has some worth. So they find themselves at the Dwarf smith. Now in the real world, if you get 60% of an items retail worth in a trade, you just scored. So I had then roll diplomacy. They blew it. Sorry no special deals. I was only letting them roll diplomacy because the group had a dwarf in the group. The dwarf smith wouldn't have given them the time of day otherwise. Some of that is roll play (the diplomacy roll) and some of that is role play (the part about a dwarf making the deal even possible).
Then also encountered the sage in the tower, and that was almost all role play, as they were seeking information. I could have made it roll play entirely, but I felt it was more fun to give the NPC sage personality. He swapped some arcane knowledge in trade for a ritual with the groups wizard. It was mostly just interaction between players and NPCs. None of it was in the module notes. I was making it all up.
That's what separates people that think 4th is not role playing friendly, from those that have no problem with it.
There's only as much role play in any game, as you intentionally and deliberately place in it.
I could just as easily go from encounter battle to encounter battle in the modules with no role playing at all if the players only wanted to migrate through the fight sequences.
You're both NOT disagreeing with me, maybe I just didn't explain well. Our group loves 4E and no, the rules don't push you away from roleplaying. What I'm looking for are rules, charts, etc. that expand upon the types of things I put in the first post. Things you can choose to use or not. I personally would find these ideas more useful than an online article about a particular city or deity or something else we may never encounter.
I'm not sure I understand. What you are looking for is Skill Challenges, but you say you don't like them. Are you sure you understand how skill challenges work? (In my experience, most people who don't like skill challenges have never seen one run well. - Many DM's are not yet very good at it.)
however RPGs by nature only cover action resolution and roleplaying is up to the player.
you can kill the dragon and save the princess or kill the princess and save the dragon with any roleplaying game on the shelves at your local gamestore,
and a chart and guidelines will just get in the way of roleplaying, it will be a pain in the bootie to have to keep looking at whatever rules dictate whatever you can or cant do.
roleplaying is made by the players not the game,
Here is my answer to your delemia. I ended up writing my own selfpublished module, which places a greater emphasis on storytelling and roleplaying, over combat. The dialogue for the npcs is completely scripted out using dialogue trees.
Example:
The Cage of Stone:
You find an opening between the rock formations and see a young girl sitting on the ground crying. Roughly 10 feet away from her, you see a headless body of a young boy grasping a broken wooden sword in his right hand.
PCs speak to the little Girl:
The little girl points to the corpse and says,”Whaaa! The rat people killed my brother Alec and took his head away.” (sniffle)
PCs asks the Little Girl for her name:
“My name is Jenna and my brother Alec tried to protect me with his wooden sword, but they cut off his head. Now he’s dead!
Whaaa! Whaaa! I wanna go home, please take me home!”
Here is my answer to your delemia. I ended up writing my own selfpublished module, which places a greater emphasis on storytelling and roleplaying, over combat. The dialogue for the npcs is completely scripted out using dialogue trees.
Example:The Cage of Stone:
You find an opening between the rock formations and see a young girl sitting on the ground crying. Roughly 10 feet away from her, you see a headless body of a young boy grasping a broken wooden sword in his right hand.
PCs speak to the little Girl:
The little girl points to the corpse and says,”Whaaa! The rat people killed my brother Alec and took his head away.” (sniffle)
PCs asks the Little Girl for her name:
“My name is Jenna and my brother Alec tried to protect me with his wooden sword, but they cut off his head. Now he’s dead!
Whaaa! Whaaa! I wanna go home, please take me home!”
While I note that the quest says its for levels 1-5, towards the higher end of that level range the players may have enough money for the child to be resurrected.
What if they just choose that option? You know, fork the money over themselves to have the child raised?
Ta-da, Jenna is happy, Alec is alive, and you finished the adventure.
Here is my answer to your delemia. I ended up writing my own selfpublished module, which places a greater emphasis on storytelling and roleplaying, over combat. The dialogue for the npcs is completely scripted out using dialogue trees.
Example:The Cage of Stone:
You find an opening between the rock formations and see a young girl sitting on the ground crying. Roughly 10 feet away from her, you see a headless body of a young boy grasping a broken wooden sword in his right hand.
PCs speak to the little Girl:
The little girl points to the corpse and says,”Whaaa! The rat people killed my brother Alec and took his head away.” (sniffle)
PCs asks the Little Girl for her name:
“My name is Jenna and my brother Alec tried to protect me with his wooden sword, but they cut off his head. Now he’s dead!
Whaaa! Whaaa! I wanna go home, please take me home!”
While I note that the quest says its for levels 1-5, towards the higher end of that level range the players may have enough money for the child to be resurrected.
What if they just choose that option? You know, fork the money over themselves to have the child raised?
Ta-da, Jenna is happy, Alec is alive, and you finished the adventure.
If the playing characters actively try to protect the girl from harm, but she still dies during a combat situation, the adventure pretty much ends there with the PCs failing in completing their mission.
However, I have written another solution to resolve this problem if it does occur inside the adventure module. But I won't tell, because I'll give too much of the plot away.
If the PCs successfully complete the adventure they may have the Angel Gabriel to ask the True God to resurrect young Alec and Jenna from the dead, as a reward. However, this scenerio was not written in the adventure and it will solely up to the Dungeon Master to decide how this scenerio should be played out.
Spoiler Alert: Jenna is not mortal....
You're both NOT disagreeing with me, maybe I just didn't explain well. Our group loves 4E and no, the rules don't push you away from roleplaying. What I'm looking for are rules, charts, etc. that expand upon the types of things I put in the first post.
So, not more 'role playing,' but more rules covering non-combat and non-adventuring activities?
Skill Challenges are cool idea, but, it seems a lot of players & DMs, like your group, have not found them very helpful. I've seen them used well a few times, and badly many times. Those I've seen go really well actually reach a little beyond the SC framework: either using story and RP elements & DM judgement to determine what skills are used (possibly keeping the whole SC 'behind the curtain') or really detailing the SC, making it into a sort of mini game-within-a-game with all the 'rules' up-front and open.
Rituals are another chunk of the game that's entirely non-combat, and could easily be expanded to cover non-adventuring situations, as well.
Expanding the game by offering non-combat/adventuring rule sets isn't out of the question. But, characters shouldn't generally have to (or even have the option to) re-distribute resources from one to the other. Rituals are already less than popular becuase you have to spend a lot of money on acquiring and casting them, taking away from combat-useful magic items. Any additional rules would have to go even farther in being separable from the combat/adventuring side of the game.