the dream form isnt ilussory, its another you. it just returns to you when it takes damage. a rangers beast doesnt let him take extra actions, neither does a shamans spirit companion. this is exactly like those. except when your beast dies you have to resurect it. when your spirit companion dies you have to resummon it. dream form is more like the latter, you just resummon it. its a free action to summon!
you totally misunderstood me i never said other classes use exploits i said they can use the same training methods, we are talking about power soucres not the individual powers. and power source sometimes reflects training, in other words how you came to that power
the dream form isnt ilussory, its another you. it just returns to you when it takes damage. a rangers beast doesnt let him take extra actions, neither does a shamans spirit companion. this is exactly like those. except when your beast dies you have to resurect it. when your spirit companion dies you have to resummon it. dream form is more like the latter, you just resummon it. its a free action to summon!
Well you really don't use a power source until you use a power, so if you are talking about a power source you are implicitly talking about the powers that go along with it. :p ANyways, when you said practices I thought you were actually talking about Martial Practices which you have to be a martial character to use, I responded assuming powers because that was more revelant. So my bad (or something). Anyways there is still more to the martial power source then hitting things with weapons. Just look at martial practices, there's one that lets you run for several hours without taking a break. Hardly related to swinging a weapon at all.
It gets hit and dies. Regardless of whether that qualifies as illusory or not, it doesn't mechanically represent what I was describing earlier. A beastmaster ranger does have some mechanical overlap, but only to about the same extent as a fighter mechanically overlaps with an avenger.
Sorry, but the Assassin and the Ninja are two very different archtypes. They are similar, but not the same. The Assasin is a murderer, cold hearted and vile, taking money to slit throats. The Ninja, as dark as a class it would be, has honor and tradition in a warped kinda way, something the Assassin lacks and does not want.
The PHB4 is not gonna be the "last PHB" as one poster has hoped. Sorry, but 5th edition isn't likely to be around until at least after 2016.
I would hope that the Shadow Power Source would be in PHB4, with a Shadow Dancer (most likely renamed) class, the Necromancer, Illusionist and another new class for the source. I think magic sources will be with it, Arcane and Psionic most likely. I hope that the Dromite might make in, and that there are more than 4 races and 6 classes.
My belief, in what was written in the little passage presented here, is that other products could introduce a power source as well as the PHB introducing one. Perhaps they have a setting specific for the power source, or a couple more exclusives on the DDi. Whatever is planed, it seems that a pattern of books is gonna change. We may only get three DMG's for one thing.
I just hope we get an official alternative to the horride Parcel System.
Martial characters use fighting styles, where they are trained for in war colleges and through other methods.
Other methods which include "hidden monastery under the waterfall Jedi Master training". :P
This. Considering such techniques were developed in our own real world for ostensibly 'martial' training and are standard tropes in many fictions regardless of theme or setting.
The monk might sit under a waterfall because only though pushing his body to its physical limits can he unlock the mysteries of his mind. The fighter might sit under the waterfall to improve his stamina. The wizard might sit under a waterfall so as to learn to concentrate while physically distracted. The druid might sit under the waterfall merely so as to commune with its natural spirit.
As for secret monasteries, any one can come from such a background. Cabals of wizards in a floating castle. A sect of rogues and/or assassins passing themselves of as a clan of forest ninja. The official fluff for avengers even suggests such an isolated temple as likely home base.
Sorry, but the Assassin and the Ninja are two very different archtypes. They are similar, but not the same. The Assasin is a murderer, cold hearted and vile, taking money to slit throats. The Ninja, as dark as a class it would be, has honor and tradition in a warped kinda way, something the Assassin lacks and does not want.
Honor and tradition aren't a class, they are personality and background. That said I'll agree there is a difference between the concept of an assassin and a mystical ninja, the first is more about killing, the second is more about being sneaky and misdirecting. That said, as much as I would have preferred the ninja to form the core class concept it would probably be better expressed as an assassin build at this point.
Arcane: Magic of the Feywild
Divine: Magic of th Astral
Martial: Military Mundane
Psionic: Magic of Far Realm
Primal: Magic of the World
and - despite my interest in it - Shadow: Magic of the Shadowfell
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The cosmology only has:
The Elemental Chaos left. Which - is probably "Elemental" *shrugs* Meh
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I still want more mundane class varieties. Plenty of other games do them - they work fine. Not everything has to be "Glam".
Arcane: Magic of the Feywild
Arcane isn't really exclusive to the Feywild, but rather the generic magical energy that permeates the entire multiverse. Notably take the warlock as an example; depending on pact they might draw power from the Far Realm, Feywild, Nine Hells, Underdark, or from the spirits that exist between/outside the borders of the planescape.
Psionic: Magic of Far Realm
Also psionics isn't really the magic FROM the Far Realm so much as it is magic in RESPONSE to the the Far Realm. It is the multiverse's 'antibody' response to the Far Realm's corruptive influence.
some of the powers classes can exhibit arent so strictly defined.
what do infernal, star and vestige warlocks have to do with the feywild? they are arcane despite having conections to demons (elemental chaos) or devils (astral sea) far realm entities (far realm) or ghosts (shadowfell) and now suddenly i feel like a hypocrite for tearing appart Ranadiel's dual soul ki class.
if we're going to base power sources off of planes then why not go a step further. abyssal, to reflect a heros conected to demon lords. dream, to represent heroes conected to the dream realm the kalashtar's quori come from etc. (actually that last one sounds psionic to me)
I have to appologize to Ranadiel for i just proved myself wrong. classes can have links to other sources without necesarily being part of said power source. i still disagree however that ki is different from psionic but we will have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. i think many of our misunderstandings come from that i usually end up editing my posts 4 or 5 times after first submitting it so some of the details may have been mixed up which caused misunderstandings.
Sorry, but the Assassin and the Ninja are two very different archtypes. They are similar, but not the same. The Assasin is a murderer, cold hearted and vile, taking money to slit throats. The Ninja, as dark as a class it would be, has honor and tradition in a warped kinda way, something the Assassin lacks and does not want.
The thing about Ninja having "tradition and honor" is something that was likely made up, as all there is about Ninjas is just myths. Assassins were a secretive Muslim sect, I'd certainly say they have some form of Honor and Tradition.
The point is there's little difference in Ninjas and Assassins based on the reasons you give.
That said I'll agree there is a difference between the concept of an assassin and a mystical ninja, the first is more about killing, the second is more about being sneaky and misdirecting. That said, as much as I would have preferred the ninja to form the core class concept it would probably be better expressed as an assassin build at this point.
I disagree that a "mystic ninja"(for reference I mean ninjas who do things like breath fire and change into giant toads....no not Naruto, but the source material that Naruto style ninjas are based on) would be best expressed as an assassin build. I'm not sure what it would be best described as(probably either elemental or arcane), but I think there is enough theoretical design space for such a class.....not that I think we'll ever see it, but it could exist.
i get what your going for nox and its a good idea but its not all encompassing.
some of the powers classes can exhibit arent so strictly defined.
what do infernal, star and vestige warlocks have to do with the feywild? they are arcane despite having conections to demons (elemental chaos) or devils (astral sea) far realm entities (far realm) or ghosts (shadowfell) and now suddenly i feel like a hypocrite for tearing appart Ranadiel's dual soul ki class.
if we're going to base power sources off of planes then why not go a step further. abyssal, to reflect a heros conected to demon lords. dream, to represent heroes conected to the dream realm the kalashtar's quori come from etc. (actually that last one sounds psionic to me)
I have to appologize to Ranadiel for i just proved myself wrong. classes can have links to other sources without necesarily being part of said power source. i still disagree however that ki is different from psionic but we will have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. i think many of our misunderstandings come from that i usually end up editing my posts 4 or 5 times after first submitting it so some of the details may have been mixed up which caused misunderstandings.
I'll just this as a victory for me :P Anyways I think the real problem was more of us using different definitions of what psionics is. I have a very detailed mental explanation for the nature of psionics in 4ed by the default fluff, but until I have a chance to closely read through PHB3 I don't want to post it in case there is something that contradicts the explanattion. If you work with a different defintion than the one I have been working on then it certainly is possible to see a much mor blurred line between the Ki and Psionics.
On the subject of connecting power sources with planes, what Nox posted is imo the oppisite of the way you should look at it. It isn't that the Feywild is the source of Arcane energy, it is that the Feywild is the ultimate expression of what arcane energy is. Likewise for shadow, elemental, and divine. For primal, since all the power come from primal spirits it might be the only one which is accurate to say that the power comes from a specific plane(the "spirit world"). Martial, psionic, and (theoretically) Ki would all come from mastering the fonts of power which exist within your own body.
I disagree that a "mystic ninja"(for reference I mean ninjas who do things like breath fire and change into giant toads....no not Naruto, but the source material that Naruto style ninjas are based on) would be best expressed as an assassin build. I'm not sure what it would be best described as(probably either elemental or arcane), but I think there is enough theoretical design space for such a class.....not that I think we'll ever see it, but it could exist.
I could see this as a Sorcerer build; one that focuses on short range to melee attacks, has some transformation powers (something that I have been wanting to see more of with Sorcerer)
I could see it being a Dragon article with more melee powers and a Paragon Path; that way any kind of Sorcerer can be one.
I would love for my Chaos Sorcerer to be able to turn into a giant frog, lol.
I'll just this as a victory for me :P Anyways I think the real problem was more of us using different definitions of what psionics is. I have a very detailed mental explanation for the nature of psionics in 4ed by the default fluff, but until I have a chance to closely read through PHB3 I don't want to post it in case there is something that contradicts the explanattion. If you work with a different defintion than the one I have been working on then it certainly is possible to see a much mor blurred line between the Ki and Psionics.
On the subject of connecting power sources with planes, what Nox posted is imo the oppisite of the way you should look at it. It isn't that the Feywild is the source of Arcane energy, it is that the Feywild is the ultimate expression of what arcane energy is. Likewise for shadow, elemental, and divine. For primal, since all the power come from primal spirits it might be the only one which is accurate to say that the power comes from a specific plane(the "spirit world"). Martial, psionic, and (theoretically) Ki would all come from mastering the fonts of power which exist within your own body.
my response
you would consider this a victory for yourself, i'll consider it a tie. You don't wana say what your definition of psionics is because you dont have PHB3, well I do have one. I'll just leave it at that. Fluff is mutable and I learned that so is power source.
ps. editing quotes is hard
I disagree that a "mystic ninja"(for reference I mean ninjas who do things like breath fire and change into giant toads....no not Naruto, but the source material that Naruto style ninjas are based on) would be best expressed as an assassin build. I'm not sure what it would be best described as(probably either elemental or arcane), but I think there is enough theoretical design space for such a class.....not that I think we'll ever see it, but it could exist.
Well there is that interpretation of ninja, but while it's in keeping with the traditional 'mythical' ninja, such a concept would be largely unrecognizable as a NINJA as they have come to be understood in the west (though shows like Naruta may herald a more broad interpretation in the future). While I think there is a place for such a concept in D&D, I do not think that 'ninja' is the right name for that concept. As for what power source such a class concept would fit into, Arcane seems the obvious choice as it's the only power source capable of fully encompassing the diverse variety of magical effects required.
Also - Primal is the antibody of the Far Realm. That one I'm positive of. Even the Wilden - a creature that is essentially "Humanoid Primal Power Source" have been newly created by nature to combat the encroaching Far Realm influence.
This is directly from the Character Builder builder description for "Wilden": "Wilden believe they awoke to meet a threat moving across the Feywild and into the world: the rising power of the Far Realm and its incursion into the known universe."
This makes my statement fact as much as - Dragonborn come from ancient Arkhosia - or Tieflings come from their own fallen empire. None of it is "true" in a homebrew - but it's stated in the core material.
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I don't believe they intend the power sources to actually generate their own sources of energy - rather, each source funnels the same energy in a different way.
Arcane: Through symbols, incantations, spellbooks, tutors.
Psionics: Through intuition, meditation, introspection, imagination.
((I won't bother with the others - since they seem undisputed))
As for Psionics - many Far Realms entities seem to be capable of Psionics. Aberrant creatures - Illithids, Aboleths, etc.
you would consider this a victory for yourself
That comment was solely made in jest hence the :P.
Well there is that interpretation of ninja, but while it's in keeping with the traditional 'mythical' ninja, such a concept would be largely unrecognizable as a NINJA as they have come to be understood in the west (though shows like Naruta may herald a more broad interpretation in the future). While I think there is a place for such a concept in D&D, I do not think that 'ninja' is the right name for that concept. As for what power source such a class concept would fit into, Arcane seems the obvious choice as it's the only power source capable of fully encompassing the diverse variety of magical effects required.
My apologies, I didn't mean to appear to be saying that a "mystic ninja" class should be called ninja. I was just disagreeing that a "mystic ninja" is best represented as an assassin build.
I could have sworn that I read somewhere that the "Source" of the Arcane Power source - is generated from the Feywild. I will have to research it -
Also - Primal is the antibody of the Far Realm. That one I'm positive of. Even the Wilden - a creature that is essentially "Humanoid Primal Power Source" have been newly created by nature to combat the encroaching Far Realm influence.
I'm unaware of anything stating as such about Arcane, but if you can cite to it then it would certainly change up discussions about arcane.
And Primal is most certainly not the anti-Far Realm power source. It came into being during the Dawn War as the gods and primordials fought each other in the world in a sense as a response to the fighting. The Far Realm incursion wasn't too far along in those days, and they certainly would have done more than just kick the primordials and gods out if all they were concerned about was the Fra Realm(saying the primal spirits exist to ensure the nature cycles procede without outside interferance might be accurate but that goes beyond them being anti-Far Realm).
This is directly from the Character Builder builder description for "Wilden": "Wilden believe they awoke to meet a threat moving across the Feywild and into the world: the rising power of the Far Realm and its incursion into the known universe."
(empahsis mine)
Wilden are not primal they are fey. That's their creature type and it pretty much states that in what you quoted.
Still, I agree with the rest you said.
My apologies, I didn't mean to appear to be saying that a "mystic ninja" class should be called ninja. I was just disagreeing that a "mystic ninja" is best represented as an assassin build.
Not a problem, though personally I distinguish between the concept of MYSTICAL ninja and MAGICAL/MYTHICAL ninja. To me the MYSTICAL ninja has subtle abilities such as shadow blend, shadow walk, and possibly the ability to conjure illusory images out of shadow stuff. By contrast, the kind of more overt abilities, such as breathing fire or summoning giant frogs, are part of what I would classify as a MAGICAL/MYTHICAL ninja.
Wilden are not primal they are fey. That's their creature type and it pretty much states that in what you quoted.
They may be fey, but I don't think that precludes them from being primal as well. The Feywild is after all a more vibrant/magical reflection of the natural world. I don't see any reason why the influence of the primal spirits would fail to extend into it.
Not a problem, though personally I distinguish between the concept of MYSTICAL ninja and MAGICAL/MYTHICAL ninja. To me the MYSTICAL ninja has subtle abilities such as shadow blend, shadow walk, and possibly the ability to conjure illusory images out of shadow stuff. By contrast, the kind of more overt abilities, such as breathing fire or summoning giant frogs, are part of what I would classify as a MAGICAL/MYTHICAL ninja.
The names I'm used to for the ninja archetypes are historical ninja(basically the rogue), shadow ninja(the ninja that vanishes into shadows), and the mystic ninja(the one that turns into giant toads).
They may be fey, but I don't think that precludes them from being primal as well. The Feywild is after all a more vibrant/magical reflection of the natural world. I don't see any reason why the influence of the primal spirits would fail to extend into it.
....Gah I really do not want to go into this discussion again. I think the best way of me explaining my view on the relationship between the primal spirits and the feywild is that the primal spirits indirectly and unintentionally influence the feywild by every action they make being magnified by the nature of the feywild(the inverse is true about the shadowfell). However this does not mean that the feywild is under their control as the very essence of the feywild goes against the cycles of nature that the primal spirits represent.
The names I'm used to for the ninja archetypes are historical ninja(basically the rogue), shadow ninja(the ninja that vanishes into shadows), and the mystic ninja(the one that turns into giant toads).
The names I use come from some early 4e discussions on this board (and to a lesser extent from discussions about Complete Adventurer on the old 3e boards). In those desiccation it was acknowledged that while Martial Rogue made a fine 'historical' ninja a 'mystical' ninja (as defined by modern pop culture) would be better represented as a Shadow class. Those talks later led to discussion of the classical myths built around the exploits of ninja (which have little resemblance to moder mystical ninja) as such I started calling that third concept the 'magical' ninja. I personally dislike the use of the term 'shadow' ninja, as the other two concepts are not identified by their power source.
....Gah I really do not want to go into this discussion again. I think the best way of me explaining my view on the relationship between the primal spirits and the feywild is that the primal spirits indirectly and unintentionally influence the feywild by every action they make being magnified by the nature of the feywild(the inverse is true about the shadowfell). However this does not mean that the feywild is under their control as the very essence of the feywild goes against the cycles of nature that the primal spirits represent.
Oh I largely agree with you, and while I don't mean to force you into a discussion you're uncomfortable with, I do have something to add briefly. As you say the primal spirits do possess active dominion over the Feywild, but their action in the natural world influence event in the Feywild. As such the wilden can both be creations of the primal spirits, even if only indirectly, while also being natives of the Feywild.
Also I do not see the Feywild as being in any way "against the cycles of nature", rather I see the Feywild as more so being an EXAGGERATION of those natural cycles. There is simply too much parallel between the two plains for me to view either as being in any way the antithesis of other. It's not as if the Primal Spirits have any thing against magic. The natural world is full of subtle magic, as such the Feywild being a more vibrant echo of the natural world is thusly a place of more over magic.
Oh I largely agree with you, and while I don't mean to force you into a discussion you're uncomfortable with, I do have something to add briefly. As you say the primal spirits do possess active dominion over the Feywild, but their action in the natural world influence event in the Feywild. As such the wilden can both be creations of the primal spirits, even if only indirectly, while also being natives of the Feywild.
Also I do not see the Feywild as being in any way "against the cycles of nature", rather I see the Feywild as more so being an EXAGGERATION of those natural cycles. There is simply too much parallel between the two plains for me to view either as being in any way the antithesis of other. It's not as if the Primal Spirits have any thing against magic. The natural world is full of subtle magic, as such the Feywild being a more vibrant echo of the natural world is thusly a place of more over magic.
It isn't that I'm uncomfortable with it. It is that this conversation comes up practically every other week so it gets old real fast(I'm almost positive that I just finished having a discussion on this subject just a couple days ago).
Anyways perhaps I should clarify what I meant when I said "against the cycles of nature". Off the top of my head, there are four seasonal courts which exist in the Feywild. Each of these courts control regions within the Feywild. These regions are permenantly stuck in the season of the court that they belong to. So the lands of the winter court are eternally in winter. These courts effectively go against the natural cycle of the changing of the seasons. Are all aspects of the changing of the seasons present? Certainly, but they have been isolated, exagerated, and expanded to the point where you can no longer say that the lands under the control of these four courts follow the natural order of the seasons despite the fact that all the parts are there.
Sorry, but the Assassin and the Ninja are two very different archtypes. They are similar, but not the same. The Assasin is a murderer, cold hearted and vile, taking money to slit throats. The Ninja, as dark as a class it would be, has honor and tradition in a warped kinda way, something the Assassin lacks and does not want.
The thing about Ninja having "tradition and honor" is something that was likely made up, as all there is about Ninjas is just myths. Assassins were a secretive Muslim sect, I'd certainly say they have some form of Honor and Tradition.
The point is there's little difference in Ninjas and Assassins based on the reasons you give.
Assassin is a cold hearted paid killer.
Ninja have other concerns, though they are not above killing when needed.
Assassin is a cold hearted paid killer.
Ninja have other concerns, though they are not above killing when needed.
Not this again ...
Look, it's been repeatedly proven for a fact that you're wrong about assassins. Just give it up. You're the only one that can't seem to grasp that.
As for ninjas .... yeah, gonna have to say you're wrong there too. At least in as much as them being different from assassins, because they're not.
That's assassin and ninja the concepts, not the classes. Becaue in the case of the Assassin class ... well you've proven repeatedly that you enjoy mouthing off about the Assassin class as if you're some authority, only to be proven wrong again and again. Because the Assassin class is not a cold hearted paid killer, any more than a Fighter or Rogue or Ranger are.
Assassin is a cold hearted paid killer.
Ninja have other concerns, though they are not above killing when needed.
Not this again ...
Look, it's been repeatedly proven for a fact that you're wrong about assassins. Just give it up. You're the only one that can't seem to grasp that.
As for ninjas .... yeah, gonna have to say you're wrong there too. At least in as much as them being different from assassins, because they're not.
No, he's right, but he's also making far too big a deal out of it. I dislike the class being NAMED assassin for the exact same reasons. I don't make a fuss about it though because I realize that class =/= occupation and that further more a class's name is little more than a convenient label for identifying a group of interrelated mechanics.
Shadow would also be the best powersource for Darker and Edgier Heroes. Which *would* be a nice change from all the knights in shining armour stuff.
As for Shadow = "Magic from the Shadowfell" thing. I disagree. Go read up on Shar's background material. If anything, she'd be the patron deity of the Shadow powersource.
Shadow would also be the best powersource for Darker and Edgier Heroes. Which *would* be a nice change from all the knights in shining armour stuff.
While I could go into a longwinded discussion over why deities shouldn't be the sole patrons over power sources(technically all deities togather don't even completely control the divine power source), it is just easier to point out that Shar is a FR deity and these discussions are focusing on default PoL fluff where she most certainly does not control the shadow power source or really anything at all.
Assassin is a cold hearted paid killer.
Ninja have other concerns, though they are not above killing when needed.
You got your facts all wrong.
The Assassin or Hashishins as they were known, and were of the Nizari branch of the Ismaili Shiite Muslim sect. Their concerns were certainly more than just being paid as they were closely tied to the Nizaris and operated out of Mount Alamut. The Hashishin's goals were the protection of the Nizaris and creation of a world free of corruption and greed.
There's certainly room for that in a D&D world with a secretive religious group operating out of somewhere like Mount Alamut. Al-Quadim is probably the one campaign that has a direct counterpart, but other worlds most certainly can. As there could be a secret sect of Pelor's followers hidden in Mount Citadel in POL land who strike at the sources behind evil and corruption, sending their Assassin and Avenger followers out on missions.
The Assassin or Hashishins as they were known, and were of the Nizari branch of the Ismaili Shiite Muslim sect. Their concerns were certainly more than just being paid as they were closely tied to the Nizaris and operated out of Mount Alamut. The Hashishin's goals were the protection of the Nizaris and creation of a world free of corruption and greed.
While the term 'assassin' is derived from the hashishin, the modern concept of an assassin has very little to do with that organization. The same is largely true of most of the names that are used for classes. While such etymological relations are not without merit, the way such terms are used in modern language is of far more relevance.
Ninjas?
What about Ninjas?
In its most simple, as assassin is someone who carries out assassinations. An assassination being the targeted killing of a public figure. These killings may be prompted by religious, ideological, political, or military reasons. Sure, some doing it are doing it simply to get paid, and the religious or ideological elements are present in the person doing the paying, no tthe person pulling the trigger. But by no means is payment a necessary condition for assassination.
The main thing is, most think that because of the DDi Assassin, the Ninja is not going to be done in a future publication. I hope that is not the case, but can't argue against the point.
While the term 'assassin' is derived from the hashishin, the modern concept of an assassin has very little to do with that organization. The same is largely true of most of the names that are used for classes. While such etymological relations are not without merit, the way such terms are used in modern language is of far more relevance.
And? thaX is still wrong. He calls Assassins cold hearted paid killers, which is not only wrong about the class, but about real life assassins, since real life assassins run the gamut from cold hearted killer to crazy whack job to politically or religiously minded activist. Paid assassins exist, but they do not exist in a vacuum.
The term, as another poster has correctly surmised, is a poor choice for a herioc character, as a class or a concept for a character. The class itself may be a well designed, apt Shadow power source class, but it is called "Assassin."
To me, it is just as bad as a class named "Blackieman."
For example, I could use Assassin mechanics to depict a Githzerai who trained in a monastery in the Shadowfell, and learned how manipulate shadow magic from meditating on the warped plane. He doesn't use his power to kill people for money, he uses it to simply understand how different planes can connect with each other... along with occasionally slaughtering the hell out of ithillids or githyanki (him being a Githzerai and there being natural enmity among the groups).
A character using Assassin mechanics isn't necessarily an assassin (that is, a person paid money to kill high-profile targets).
That is all.
A character using Assassin mechanics isn't necessarily an assassin (that is, a person paid money to kill high-profile targets).
Agreed, but that doesn't mean we have to like the name.
A character using Assassin mechanics isn't necessarily an assassin (that is, a person paid money to kill high-profile targets).
Agreed, but that doesn't mean we have to like the name.
If you don't like the name, you can rename it.
This notion that adventurers are anything but marauding - murdering - thieves is preposterous.
They're usually little better than the "monsters" they liberate the world from.
Though I absolutely hate the 4th Edition "assassin" (actually, I hate the Shadow power source) - the idea of someone who's a "professional killer" or what have you - is at least more honest.
((Because let's be serious - they didn't have fireside chats and sing songs - to save the world from corruption and greed.))
If you don't like the name, you can rename it.
Hopefully, when some of what the Assassin in this article is used for another class, it will be.
Personally - I've wiped out the character class names - everyone calls each other mercenaries.
This notion that adventurers are anything but marauding - murdering - thieves is preposterous.
They're usually little better than the "monsters" they liberate the world from.
Utter nonsense. "Mercenaries" implies that they have employers - sometimes they're just marauding, murdering thieves stealing everything in sight just for themselves!
Actually, having an employer does give you someone else to murder and rob once the job's done - and remember, people who hire "Adventurers" to solve their problems often have enemies, so after you've stolen all their stuff you can try to claim a bounty for it!
If a job's worth getting paid for, it's worth getting paid 5+ times for.
Personally - I've wiped out the character class names - everyone calls each other mercenaries.
This notion that adventurers are anything but marauding - murdering - thieves is preposterous.
They're usually little better than the "monsters" they liberate the world from.
Utter nonsense. "Mercenaries" implies that they have employers - sometimes they're just marauding, murdering thieves stealing everything in sight just for themselves!
Actually, having an employer does give you someone else to murder and rob once the job's done - and remember, people who hire "Adventurers" to solve their problems often have enemies, so after you've stolen all their stuff you can try to claim a bounty for it!
If a job's worth getting paid for, it's worth getting paid 5+ times for.
That's why often times I employ the idea of an Adventurer's Guild or a Police Force, or a Military Organization of which the players are generally tied. Gives some leeway with issues of being maurading murderers... while also give some sort of general go to arc in a campaign that doesn't necessarily have a got to plot.
This notion that adventurers are anything but marauding - murdering - thieves is preposterous.
They're usually little better than the "monsters" they liberate the world from.
While REALISTICALLY true, such goes against the typical notions that define the concept of HEROIC FANTASY.
Personally - I've wiped out the character class names - everyone calls each other mercenaries.
This notion that adventurers are anything but marauding - murdering - thieves is preposterous.
They're usually little better than the "monsters" they liberate the world from.
When I first started playing D&D I disliked heroes as much as the next person. That's not completely true. I hated worlds that had hero economies and being a hero (or adventurer) was actually a profession and that the world would die without these regular people stepping up to adventure.
The main culprit for this is Forgotten Realms, particularly LFR. Forgotten Realms has plenty of heroes by itself, but add in LFR and suddenly you have a hero economy.
That said, I've grown to enjoy playing heroes in home games. As a DM the first thing I did was say "there are no heroes in Eberron. You 4 are the only heroes, and I'm not too sure how heroic some of you are."
This four group of people have lied, killed and stolen, but despite that they are somewhat heroic. They saved an entire city from a plague that was turning people into zombies. One of their number is a barbarian whose idea of justice is a lot more brutal. When betrayed by the City Watch he didn't flinch or question executing the soldiers. Despite his allies trying to stop him. But that's the worst thing they did.
They agreed to track someone down for a group of outsiders. When they did the person begged the players not to turn her in. Sure she was a mafia boss but she became one out of survival. She promised to repent if the players would simply not turn her in. She also offered them a magical item. They were very uncertain but ultimately the offer payment was enough to sway them to not turn her in to the outsiders. They lied to the outsiders and still managed to collect payment from them.
They've also interrogated a prisoner (who was a crazy cultist bent on killing everyone he could) and promised to let him go if he answered their questions. He answered, but they killed him anyway (he was rather evil after all).
That's about the worst that my players have done, and they've done a fair amount of good as well. They're more vigilantes then mass-murderers. And they've been asked a couple of times by authorities to help with important tasks (one of the two times was to lethally apprehend the evil cultists despite the fact doing so is illegal). So on the whole I don't think they're marauding - murdering - thieves. They do try to do the right thing. It just isn't always clear what the right thing is.
I'd like to see more Shadow and I'd like to see Elemental. Personally, I'd like to see each class reach six different classes, just so as to round them out and give them a full-blown average party, as well as giving lots of options. Beyond those two... I'd have liked to see Ki worked out, however that seems doubtful. I liked the descriptions some had of essentially making it a soul-based power source, however that clashes too much with some of the others. I suppose I'll just wait, as unless they did a tech source (which is essentially Arcane, for all practical intents and purposes) I can't think of one that couldn't fit under another source. Of course, I still need to wait on Elemental to see how it fits in, and a full-blown group of Shadow.
Though wildly off topic - this idea of adventurers (though not new) is worth talking about. I'm gonna start a new post about it in General.
Post the link when you have the topic up for ease of manœvrability.
I wouldn't be too suprised to see the elemental power source replace divine for Dark Sun, because that's the nature of that setting, perhaps where they repace radiant damage with whatever elemental you worship. I don't see how the elemental power type would get it's own classes though: the sorcerer is about as close to an elemental character as you can get.
How many times do I have to explain this? Okay, let's say it again.
For one thing, Divine is gone in Dark Sun. But Elemental didn't replace divine for the Elemental Priests. "Elemental Priest" is a character theme for Primal characters, like the Shaman. Templar is a character theme for Arcane characters, like the Warlock.
Next, about Sorcerers: Only the Chaos Sorcerer (and maybe the Dragon Sorcerer) is elemental in similarity. You might as well say the Cosmic Sorcerer is Divine or the Storm Sorcerer is Primal.
Dragons, for the most part, are Natural beings, even if they have an elemental heart. The only Sorcerer build tied to Chaos and elementals is the Chaos Sorcerer. Wild Magic.
It's about the mindset and the way Arcane characters fit together. Sorcerers fit far more thematically with the rest of Arcane than in a different Power Source.
Just because you can't imagine what they're going to do with Elemental doesn't mean it isn't tenable.
That said, I was thinking, since Psionics ate Ki's fluff, Elemental might eat Incarnum (and the Psionic Shaper). It's a possibility.
I don't think Elemental will be in PH4 though. This is probably a mistype, or a hype mention (we've got new power sources, etc… meaning one new source). It doesn't necessarily mean both are coming next year, and that both are in PH4. Besides, one might be in a Setting Guide or Dragon or something.
In regards to the Assassin class, a simple quote summarizes it quite well. A rose by any other name... etc. What does it matter what the name of the class is? While personally I'd have rather seen it named Shadow Dancer, for one, that's a bit long. Works well as a Paragon Path, but I can't think of any with a name that long.
As well, it definitely isn't as iconic as Assassin, and Ninja is iconic, but for all the wrong reasons they'd be trying to portray with Assassin. For one, simple cultural baggage. That alone would be enough, especially when Assassin is at least as well-known, with as much historical renown in the world of DnD, fulfilling much the same role, etc.
I think Wizards tried to avoid making an Assassin class at first, giving us the PP for the Rogue and Avenger instead. The call for it by "fans" and a push by some inner big wig who, most likely, referenced the first edition class (not mentioning how overpowered it was) as a reason to return it to class status in this new edition.
The Shadow Dancer, whenever it does get into the PHB (most likely 4), will be renamed. Thankfully, it won't be Assassin, as that will stay safely within the DDi service.
The Ninja has a background, the Assassin is more of a term, used to denote/describe the vile, foulest persons who have no morals and kill for a living. That the Ninja has a cultural background makes the general Ninja for D&D a challenging write up that would put the class into a niche of its own. This is what they did with the Monk.
I'm kinda hoping PHB4 is the last PHB.
I think by that point, we'll have enough new races to satisfy most, and I think anything extra that a powersource may need in regards to representation can come from a XPower book.
Ack, I just saw my previous response didnt post properly. I meant to say ...
Austinwulf, if you and others want a non-evolving version of D&D, you should check out the D&D Essentials line, when it comes out. Once the (ten?) books come out, the devs will never add to the game. (Of course, minor errata to finetune these fixed rules is probably a good idea.) So, the Essentials game will have a reliable non-changing canon.
Gamers who want an evolving D&D tradition can stay upto speed with D&DI.
In regards to the Assassin class, a simple quote summarizes it quite well. A rose by any other name... etc. What does it matter what the name of the class is? While personally I'd have rather seen it named Shadow Dancer, for one, that's a bit long. Works well as a Paragon Path, but I can't think of any with a name that long.
As well, it definitely isn't as iconic as Assassin, and Ninja is iconic, but for all the wrong reasons they'd be trying to portray with Assassin. For one, simple cultural baggage. That alone would be enough, especially when Assassin is at least as well-known, with as much historical renown in the world of DnD, fulfilling much the same role, etc.
I think Wizards tried to avoid making an Assassin class at first, giving us the PP for the Rogue and Avenger instead. The call for it by "fans" and a push by some inner big wig who, most likely, referenced the first edition class (not mentioning how overpowered it was) as a reason to return it to class status in this new edition.
The Shadow Dancer, whenever it does get into the PHB (most likely 4), will be renamed. Thankfully, it won't be Assassin, as that will stay safely within the DDi service.
The Ninja has a background, the Assassin is more of a term, used to denote/describe the vile, foulest persons who have no morals and kill for a living. That the Ninja has a cultural background makes the general Ninja for D&D a challenging write up that would put the class into a niche of its own. This is what they did with the Monk.
I don't think they tried to avoid it, I just think they had other things to focus on. Furthermore, it doesn't matter how they were in older editions, Wizards are vastly different from 3.5 (just for a simple example).
As for the Shadow Dancer, there's no way fo knowing what will happen with it. It's likely to be a Striker, if we go off of it's older aspect, however... who knows.
That's not all Assassin's are though. Some people in real life may kill for money. However, a lot of books (for instance) have noble people who would likely fall under an assassin group, who try and kill high up leaders in order to avoid the potential of a civil war, that sort of thing. Your perception of Assassin is not the only one, and there are many, many ones, as the only thing that potentially ties them together is killing people discreetly.
And Monk has more history than Ninja. It'd be hard to just change the name of Monk to something else, especially since Monks are also less cultularly tied down, despite their origins. Assassin is, for all mechanical intents and purposes, the same as Ninja, and everything else is mutable. Fluff, name of the class, etc. aren't tied down to any mechanical (and thus harder to change) traits, and shouldn't be something you should care about. You can call the Assassin class a Ninja, or any other number of things that would work. I especially don't see what your issue is, as it's mechanics aren't tied into defeating enemies in a dishonorable way. As they aren't, the only issue you have with the class are mutable, and thus unimportant, especially as you're the one who has any say in how it works as a DM.
Ack, I just saw my previous response didnt post properly. I meant to say ...
Austinwulf, if you and others want a non-evolving version of D&D, you should check out the D&D Essentials line, when it comes out. Once the (ten?) books come out, the devs will never add to the game. (Of course, minor errata to finetune these fixed rules is probably a good idea.) So, the Essentials game will have a reliable non-changing canon.
Gamers who want an evolving D&D tradition can stay upto speed with D&DI.
Uh ... no? The Essentials line is finite, yes. But it's still 4e DnD, not some branching off-shoot. It's no different than extra PHBs or DMGs or what have you. The rules are just as "fixed" as regular 4e rules, because they are the regular 4e rules. And they have the exact same canon as every other non-setting specific 4e book.
The Shadow Dancer, whenever it does get into the PHB (most likely 4), will be renamed. Thankfully, it won't be Assassin, as that will stay safely within the DDi service.
And what would your hypothetical Shadowdancer class do mechanically that is not already accomplished by the Assassin class?
It's not that I have anything against Shadowdancers, and I find the name preferable to Assassin, but the Assassin is already a striker that uses shadows to teleport. As I see it a Shadowdancer might have a unique class feature or two, but its attack powers and utilities would largely be the same as what the Assassin already has. As such, Shadowdancer sounds more like a build than a class.
Ack, I just saw my previous response didnt post properly. I meant to say ...
Austinwulf, if you and others want a non-evolving version of D&D, you should check out the D&D Essentials line, when it comes out. Once the (ten?) books come out, the devs will never add to the game. (Of course, minor errata to finetune these fixed rules is probably a good idea.) So, the Essentials game will have a reliable non-changing canon.
Gamers who want an evolving D&D tradition can stay upto speed with D&DI.
Uh ... no? The Essentials line is finite, yes. But it's still 4e DnD, not some branching off-shoot. It's no different than extra PHBs or DMGs or what have you. The rules are just as "fixed" as regular 4e rules, because they are the regular 4e rules. And they have the exact same canon as every other non-setting specific 4e book.
Actually, you are incorrect. Essentials D&D will be *similar* to D&D 4e, but not identical. ED&D will have its own *simplified* version of D&D.
ED&D will refer to its own separate rulebooks, and wont refer to the D&D 4e rules at all, neither its books nor magazines. ED&D especially wont refer to 4e with its continual introduction of new rules systems and continual revisions of old rules systems.
Where ED&D is finite, D&D 4e is potentially infinite. Obviously these are two different systems, closed versus open.
Where the D&D 4e is an open 'living' tradition, ED&D is a closed 'dead' tradition, more like a fossile frozen in time, while the rest of D&D 4e passes it by.
The point is, players who dont like their game changing because of new options and errata, may find the concept of a non-evolving version of D&D appealing. It will be robust and workable with a fixed canon, like chess. Once they learn the rules, they dont need to worry about new rules coming along and outmoding what they already know.
I see the shadow dancer if it appears at all as a build for the assassain, there is just not enough to seperate it from the assassain to make it viable.
Not having seen the Assassin myself, I would be very disappointed if the mechanics of the Shadow Dancer was asorbed by the Cold Hearted Killer. I expect to see it re-used in a different class, or re-visioned in some way, within the PHB4. It was one of three or four worth while PrC's in the whole of the previous system, and I can't see Wizards throwing it away just to whip out the Assassin class for the DDi service.
I would be satisfied just to see a class that is almost the same with a different name instead of having the Shadow Dancer be completely wrote off.
Not having seen the Assassin myself
ROFL
I see the shadow dancer if it appears at all as a build for the assassain, there is just not enough to seperate it from the assassain to make it viable.
Not having seen the Assassin myself, I would be very disappointed if the mechanics of the Shadow Dancer was asorbed by the Cold Hearted Killer. I expect to see it re-used in a different class, or re-visioned in some way, within the PHB4. It was one of three or four worth while PrC's in the whole of the previous system, and I can't see Wizards throwing it away just to whip out the Assassin class for the DDi service.
I would be satisfied just to see a class that is almost the same with a different name instead of having the Shadow Dancer be completely wrote off.
It has an At-Will class feature called Shadow Step that allows you to teleport from one creature to the other, with the idea that you're jumping from shadow to shadow.
And again, Assassin class =/= cold-hearted killer.
Not having seen the Assassin myself
Did I just win the Special Olympics?
I think that proves everyone arguing for the Assassin to be correct.
Not having seen the Assassin myself, I would be very disappointed if the mechanics of the Shadow Dancer was asorbed by the Cold Hearted Killer.
What I would like to know is, why haven't you seen the Assassin? Your profile indicates you've got an active DDi subscription, so the class is mere clicks away. Here I'll even save you the trouble of searching the archives by giving you all the links.
Heroic Tier
Paragon Tier
Epic Tier
More Feats + Items
Hybrid + More Feats
Seriously, give it a read while ignoring the name and any distasteful fluff. Reading only the mechanics, you should find every ability that one could reasonably expect a Shadowdancer to have. They can teleport by walking through shadow, wrap themselves in shadow for protection and improved stealth, and even animate shadows to use as a weapon.
What I would like to know is, why haven't you seen the Assassin? Your profile indicates you've got an active DDi subscription,
Considering his rabidly anti-DDi stance, I get the feeling that's a computer error. Especially since he didn't have the DDi icon earlier.
While the mechanics of the assassin make it a decent shadowdancer stand-in, I'd personally rather see the shadowdancer as a highly-mobile melee controller rather than a lurker-striker. Someone who dances among her foes with a pair of light blades, slaughtering minions wholesale and dealing out crippling but usually nonfatal blows to stronger enemies so that her allies can finish them off.
Now that's a difference that might be worthy of a new class, however, it isn't really in keeping with the abilities of previous Shadowdancers (notably the 3.5 version). The Assassin already covers abilities like Shadow Illusion, Summon Shadow, and Shadow Jump. Also the old Shadowdance appears to have been conceived more as a lurker type class, with abilities like Hide in Plain Sight and requiring ranks in the stealth skills (making it a very rogue friendly prestige class, save the lack of sneak attack progression).
Though if your intent is only to see a brand new concept using the term Shadowdancer only as a name then I see no problem with your concept. Though I must ask, how would your concept make use of shadow magic? As is, what you've described sounds thoroughly martial, like some kind of dervish. I assume you meant to imply the use of shadow magic, but I'd like to know how it would use such powers in a manner different from the Assassin or the much speculated Beguiler/Illusionist. Also what stats would it use, it sounds like a DEX primary, but if that is the case couldn't it potential be a sub-controller Assassin build with multi targeting powers akin to the tempest Fighter?
Shadow Controller is perfectly feasable, not sure i'd call it a shadow dancer however.
I don't watch Naruto, but from reading the article Shikamaru's abilities seem well within the potential capabilities of the Assassin class. Notably powers like Strangling Shadow and Shadow Puppet already accomplish similar effects. There aren't yet enough of these powers to fully replicate such a character, but it seems to me that it could make fertile ground for a future sub-controller Assassin build.
I'm not trying to dismiss the idea of such a controller build, but the shadow power source already has, IMO, much more compelling controller options such as the Beguiler/Illusionist or Necromancer (even though I'd still rather see Necromancer as a leader). As such, I don't see a Shikamaru archetype making the cut for the first round of Shadow classes.
I do see that it may not make it to the PHB4, but I do not count it out as of yet.
My point, good sirs, is that the Assassin was put in the DDi to shunt it away from the main product. A good decision, in my opinion. My point is that the Shadow Dancer class should not be completely abandoned simply because a class that won't be used very often has some abilities that share the mechanics.
I do see that it may not make it to the PHB4, but I do not count it out as of yet.
No, the Assassin was put in Dragon because they wanted to reward subscribers with something exclusive, and they had an extra class that couldn't fit into the PHB3's page count.
Actually reading the material instead of making crap up and forming conspiracy theories without a single shred of proof would help, you know.
The PHB3 had other classes that could have been included that take precident over the lowly Assassin. Soulknife, for one. There are already posts on here wondering where it is.
"They" have a lot more than one extra class. It isn't that it is a bad class in itself, just that the name, Assassin, is not the best used donoter for a class that is supposed to be a herioc character. Wizards relized this, and knew that a few old schoolers who had found munchcin memories of the 1st edition of the class would like a new write up, so they comprimised.
While I agree that the name "assassin" is a poor choice for a heroic class, I don't think WotC was throwing any bones to old school fans. Other than it's name, the new 4e Assassin class has no resemblance to classic 1e Assassins (who were little more than a specialized Rogues, and thus distinctly martial), instead being more like a compilation of the 3e Assassin, Shadowdancer, and Ninja (all having distinct supernatural abilities, or even true spellcasting).
Now that's a difference that might be worthy of a new class, however, it isn't really in keeping with the abilities of previous Shadowdancers (notably the 3.5 version).
The previous edition's version of the shaman was a non-wildshaping druid that used Charisma and only really had a spirit companion in the fluff. The previous edition's Favoured Soul was a spontaneous-casting cleric who used Charisma, whereas now it's an avenger paragon path that can fly. There's no real reason why a 4th edition class has to be identical to the 3rd edition class of the same name. My shadowdancer concept is based more on the ones from Steven Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen rather than previous editions of D&D.
The Assassin already covers abilities like Shadow Illusion, Summon Shadow, and Shadow Jump.
So? The artificer can heal with arcane magic, but we still have bards. The wizard can blast people with elemental energy, but we still have the sorcerer. Classes within the same power source are obviously going to have some overlap.
Also the old Shadowdance appears to have been conceived more as a lurker type class, with abilities like Hide in Plain Sight and requiring ranks in the stealth skills
Which is why I never played one, even though the fluff and concept were cool. Playing lurkers isn't fun to me.
how would your concept make use of shadow magic? As is, what you've described sounds thoroughly martial, like some kind of dervish. I assume you meant to imply the use of shadow magic, but I'd like to know how it would use such powers in a manner different from the Assassin or the much speculated Beguiler/Illusionist.
Her dancing summons and binds shadows. As she moves, swirling, inky-black energy flows around her limbs, drawn to her blades. When she slashes an enemy, the shadows flow into the wound to chill / steal life from / daze / slow / dominate the enemy. She does fairly low damage, but inflicts status effects and attacks multiple opponents at once - she's not a striker with the controller sub-role, but a controller who happens to be mobile. Her secondary role would be leader, if anything, as her disabling effects make it easier for her allies to finish her enemies off. She can also cut her way through the boundary between the world and the Shadowfell, creating temporary passageways through which she and her allies can travel to manoever around the battlefield. As she moves, she sometimes leaves behind clouds and trails of chilling darkness that block her enemies' line of sight and harm them if they try to pass through.
As is, what you've described sounds thoroughly martial, like some kind of dervish.
ETA: Hey, did you just imply I might have come up with a workable martial controller concept?
Also what stats would it use, it sounds like a DEX primary, but if that is the case couldn't it potential be a sub-controller Assassin build with multi targeting powers akin to the tempest Fighter?
Dex primary (she's a dancer). Charisma and Intelligence as secondaries. One form of the dance (created by the drow) is beguiling and sensuous, creating mind-controlling effects and setting up combat advantage. The other is based upon a more ancient (originally shadar-kai) tradition that requires intensive study to master and creates semi-physical barriers (walls of shadow left behind as she moves) and allows the dancer to teleport and to create portals through the Shadowfell. The Dex/Int form would also give a Will bonus to balance out the fact that both its ability scores contribute to the same NAD.
Her dancing summons and binds shadows. As she moves, swirling, inky-black energy flows around her limbs, drawn to her blades. When she slashes an enemy, the shadows flow into the wound to chill / steal life from / daze / slow / dominate the enemy. She does fairly low damage, but inflicts status effects and attacks multiple opponents at once - she's not a striker with the controller sub-role, but a controller who happens to be mobile. Her secondary role would be leader, if anything, as her disabling effects make it easier for her allies to finish her enemies off. She can also cut her way through the boundary between the world and the Shadowfell, creating temporary passageways through which she and her allies can travel to manoever around the battlefield. As she moves, she sometimes leaves behind clouds and trails of chilling darkness that block her enemies' line of sight and harm them if they try to pass through.
Dex primary (she's a dancer). Charisma and Intelligence as secondaries. One form of the dance (created by the drow) is beguiling and sensuous, creating mind-controlling effects and setting up combat advantage. The other is based upon a more ancient (originally shadar-kai) tradition that requires intensive study to master and creates semi-physical barriers (walls of shadow left behind as she moves) and allows the dancer to teleport and to create portals through the Shadowfell. The Dex/Int form would also give a Will bonus to balance out the fact that both its ability scores contribute to the same NAD.
You've got some rather evocative flavor there, and some reasonable launch points for mechanics, though I still think that your concept for a Shadowdancer is at best a third string controller (after Beguiler and Necromancer).
That said, I really do like your concept, though I just don't quite see the conception between dancing and shadow beyond the name. As is I'd rather see what you've described as an Arcane-Dancer, allowing it to access a wider variety of effects and possible tying its fluff to the more whimsical aspects of the fey wild. The Bard already sets a precedence for accessing Arcane power through art, I might even try tying the two together to create a Battledancer Bard build.
Let me repeat, I like what you've thought up here, I just don't see it making the first or even second cut for shadow classes, and there may never be a third cut before the inevitable arrival of 5e. As such, I'd rather see something very similar as a Bard build as then it could possibly show up as early as Arcane Power 2, something that seems rather likely to me as dancing is a fairly obvious extension of the bard's artistic magic.
ETA: Hey, did you just imply I might have come up with a workable martial controller concept?
Nah, more like a Tempest Fighter, which tends to dart about the field targeting multiple enemies while wielding a pair of light blades. Defender and Controller are already close cousins, possible two sides of the same coin distinguished mostly by range.
As a theoretical example, the Swashbuckler would be a Defender that emphasized mobility. Instead of getting in the enemy's face and forcing him to pay attention to you, a Swashbuckler's MO would be that he hits the enemy, then runs away and makes him pursue. The question would be how to model that in the spirit of a Martial character and not a Psionic. That is to say, the Swashbuckler can't FORCE him to pursue, but can make it worth his while.
To continue this theoretical line of thought, Swashbucklers often use throwing daggers as well. Perhaps he marks at range via dagger, and then the enemy has a choice of either getting in melee and facing the Swashbuckler's blade, or ignoring him and getting pinged with a dagger for every attack he makes.
But wait, hold on...that's really just a version of the Fighter's existing mark ability. Might it work better as a Fighter build? And how would this effect ranged attackers? Artillery creatures wouldn't have to worry about it and could just nuke the Swashbuckler into oblivion. You're also forcing the Swashbuckler to have two magic weapons (both a throwing weapon and a melee), and that could spread him a lot thinner than most other classes. A good military melee/thrown weapon would work better, like an axe or a hammer, and now you're not looking much like a swashbuckler at all, but some sort of odd ranger.
Not saying it isn't workable, but it would be fairly difficult.
So they kind of watered down the uniqueness of a swashbuckler defender.
Martial Power 2 had Combat Agility, where you chase people who trigger your OA. Battleminds also chase people.
So they kind of watered down the uniqueness of a swashbuckler defender.
Not Really. The concept is that rather than chasing his targets, the Swashbuckler instead encourages his targets to chase him.
I can see that working, but right now it's reminding me a bit of a martial Swordmage. Swordmages usually "mark and run", giving their marks the choice to chase or stay where they are and trigger the debilitating Aegis effect of the Swordmage's choice.
Maybe, but the way the Swashbuckler punishes their mark would likely be different. Beyond that though I don't see anything wrong with two classes in different power sources having a similar mechanic. There's little reason why any one class should own any mechanic exclusively. It's the combination of mechanics into a unified theme that defines and makes each class unique class (thus how Rangers, Fighters, and Barbarians can all be twin bladed warriors without stepping on each other's toes).