Shadow: Hexblade (Defender, so as to distinguish itself from the Warlock), Necromancer (Leader, sub. controller), Illusionist (Controller, sub. striker), and Shadow Dancer (Mobile/Teleporting Striker).
Psionic: Empath (Leader), Psychic Warrior (Defender), Psion (Controller, after slaying the Wilder and stealing its stuff).
Ki: Monk (Striker), an Incarnum-using Soulblade (Defender), Incarnate (Leader/Controller, with an array of offensive/defensive "aura's")
As far as the Monk is concerned, I expect that a (Sumo/Wrestling/Judo-esq) Grapple-build and a (wuxia-style) Martial Artist build will appear in the PHB3, while a (anime/streetfighter) Ki-Blast and (Flurrying/acrobatic) Weapon-Specialist build will appear in Ki Power, helping drive sales for both products as a result, given that all four "builds" have a dedicated fan-base amongst gamers, with some over-lap.
Also, I don't want Ki to suck up Incarnum. I like Incarnum better as its own unique thing.
Re: the Necromancer TBH, the existing suit of powers attributed to the Necromancer can be divided into Striker (single-target Drain/Vampiric/Fear/Slow effects), Controller (multi-target Fear, Slow/Drain/black tentacles) and Leader (Undead).
Given its suite of abilities, the dev's are likely to focus more on the Leader/striker elements, in order to let the Illusionist shine as the "Shadow" controller of choice.
With that being said, I do see the dev's giving the Necromancer a healthy dose of multi-target Fear and Slow attacks, hense the sub. controller.
My Class (and build) predictions for the PHB3, PHB4 and future sourcebooks are (in no particular order):
Shadow: Hexblade (Defender, so as to distinguish itself from the Warlock), Necromancer (Leader, sub. controller), Illusionist (Controller, sub. striker), and Shadow Dancer (Mobile/Teleporting Striker).
Psionic: Empath (Leader), Psychic Warrior (Defender), Psion (Controller, after slaying the Wilder and stealing its stuff).
Ki: Monk (Striker), an Incarnum-using Soulblade (Defender), Incarnate (Leader/Controller, with an array of offensive/defensive "aura's")
As far as the Monk is concerned, I expect that a (Sumo/Wrestling/Judo-esq) Grapple-build and a (wuxia-style) Martial Artist build will appear in the PHB3, while a (anime/streetfighter) Ki-Blast and (Flurrying/acrobatic) Weapon-Specialist build will appear in Ki Power, helping drive sales for both products as a result, given that all four "builds" have a dedicated fan-base amongst gamers, with some over-lap.
I think your logic is flawed. You too frequently take classes from 3e, and port them into 4e to fill all the slots. I don't think this is a good idea. Look at the primal power source- the druid is still present, as is the barbarian, but the warden is essentially new and the shaman, while it existed in the old edition, is similar in almost nothing but name. Similar issues exist with the divine classes- the Invoker and the Avenger are basically new.
So to begin with, I think it very likely that entirely new classes (or entirely new classes with old names) will fill out some of slots. When reading the list below, the names are partially placeholders for ideas rather than anything substantive.
Here are my predictions.
Shadow:
Shadowcaster. Controller. He founded the idea of shadow as a power source, and the themes that animated the Shadowcaster are found in existing Shadow keyworded material.
Shadow Dancer. Striker. The original Shadow themed character. Look for him to kill the Shadow Hand style swordmage and take his stuff. Probably renamed.
Necromancer. Leader. Too popular not to exist.
Fourth is unknown. Probably NOT an illusionist. Illusion is an overarching theme of the Shadow power source in 3e, and has been used heavily in the Shadow keyworded material released so far. I suspect that the Shadowcaster, the Shadow Dancer, and whoever is fourth will use plenty of illusions, and no dedicated illusion class will exist. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
Psionic
Psion. Controller. The focus on elemental damage will be reduced, and emphasis placed on mental attacks.
Empath. Leader. Seems an obvious choice. Probably renamed. I don't feel like this prediction adds much.
Psychic Warrior. Striker. Might kill and take the stuff of the Soulknife or whatever it was called. This will be your "running up walls" matrix style psychic warrior.
Fourth. Unknown.
Ki
Monk. Striker. This class won't be everything people think it will be. It can't be. The same class isn't going to be a lightning fast mover who dodges and rolls with attacks, AND a grappling wrestler. Fortunately, its not the only class in the Ki power source.
Samurai. Defender.
Ninja. Heavily magical rogue type. The only way this will not be here is if the Shadow Dancer and the Ninja merge and end up in the Shadow power source.
Fourth, unknown. Will cover one or more of the monk archetypes people want.
So to begin with, I think it very likely that entirely new classes (or entirely new classes with old names) will fill out some of slots.
Could happen. But I think new classes were created in PHB2 to fill out the primal and divine power sources, rather than just to give us new stuff.
Everyone differs as to which will be the 'featured' source of PHB3, the one with four classes. Right now, I've plumped for Shadow, since filling it with popular, recognisable classes will be easy. Illusionist, Necromancer and Ninja are names that'd just about sell the book on their own, and Hexblade is a worthy addition (though I think Reaver would be a very cool class name for a shadow defender)
As for races, I think the two giths will be there, along with the shadar-kai and my risky pick, the duergar. You'd then need something to lighten up this rather grim and gray lot, so maybe a catfolk race.
Here are my predictions.
Fourth is unknown. Probably NOT an illusionist. Illusion is an overarching theme of the Shadow power source in 3e, and has been used heavily in the Shadow keyworded material released so far. I suspect that the Shadowcaster, the Shadow Dancer, and whoever is fourth will use plenty of illusions, and no dedicated illusion class will exist. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
Your logic, while sound - discounts the fact that the dev's have said (on numerous occassions) that they are working on recreating the Illusionist as a stand-alone class, much like its 1E ancestor was.
As such, the "Illusionist" is all but confirmed. The only question is what role it will occupy, with most people believing it to be a controller (and with good reason).
Psychic Warrior. Striker. Might kill and take the stuff of the Soulknife or whatever it was called. This will be your "running up walls" matrix style psychic warrior
It is entirely possible that the Psychic Warrior will kill the Soulknife and take its stuff, or vice versa.
Were I to hazard a guess as to which will occur, I would say the Soulknife would kill the Psychic Warrior in light of the fact that:
a) It fills a more unique role than the PsyWarrior (which is little more than a pseudo-psionic fighter).
and b) The Soulblade has many similarities (flavour-wise) with the various Incarnum-using classes. As such, a reflavour of the Soulblade into an incarnum-using Ki class who wields manifest "Spirit" Blades makes much more sense (and opens up many more Incarnum-based options) than does a rehashed psionic class who is a gish of PsyWarrior and Soulblade.
A reflavoured Ki-Using Soulblade (irregardless of whether it kills the PsyWar and steals its stuff) would fill a far more unique place than a rehashed PsyWar IMO.
Samurai. Defender.
Ninja. Heavily magical rogue type. The only way this will not be here is if the Shadow Dancer and the Ninja merge and end up in the Shadow power source.
1) Re: Ki Power Source
It is the Dev's intention that the Ki Power Source not become a catch-all pseudo-asian power source, and to instead categorize the "asian" classes, not on their origins, but on their flavour.
To that end, the Dev's have stated that the Ki Power source will represent the "magic/power of the soul", making it analogous to the Martial and Psionic Power Sources, which represent the magic/power of the Body and Mind respectively.
Keeping the above in mind, while the Monk has been all-but-confirmed as a Ki-based class, the same cannot be said for the other asian-themed classes. In fact, were I to hazard a guess, I would classify the other asian-themed classes into the following Power Sources (assuming of course, that these classes cannot better be explained by Paragon paths/epic destinies):
Samurai (Martial), Ninja (Martial or Shadow), Sohei (Martial or Divine), Shugenja (Divine), and WuJen (Arcane or Elemental).
2) Re: Samurai/Ninja
Given the overlap, the 4E fighter killed the Samurai and stole its stuff, while the 4E Rogue sneak attacked the Ninja and divided its stuff with the Monk and/or Shadow Dancer (assuming it makes an appearance). As such, I expect that neither of these classes will make an appearance as anything more than paragon paths for the Fighter and Monk/Rogue respectively.
Given the fact that Paragon Paths often grant a character cross-role (or cross-power source) features, I fully expect to see the Samurai transformed into a Fighter Paragon Path which grants the Fighter Striker powers/features with the Heavy Blade (Iaijutsu), while the Ninja will likely be open to both rogues and monks, and grant shadow-based powers.
All types of Samurai (Kenjutsu/Katana Expert, Nitojutsu/Daisho Expert, Kyujutsu/Bow Expert) save Iaijutsu Masters and Ronin can be easily recreated using various combinations of Great Weapon Fighter, Tempest Fighter, and Ranger.
The Iaijutsu Master and Ronin OTOH, can be (somewhat) recreated by multiclassing Great Weapon Fighter and Rogue, however both would require a feat and/or feature to be created allowing the character to sneak attack with the heavy blade.
Player's Handbook 3: Psionic and Shadow Heroes
Psionic Power
Shadow Power
Player's Handbook 4: Elemental and Ki Heroes
Ki Power
Elemental Power
It's not the trend we saw in the PHB and PHB2, certainly, but that was determined by having to put out 4E versions of existing 3E classes. Just look at the base D&D party, the Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, and Wizard. That straddles three power sources. They could've just made the PHB two power sources, but people would've been screaming bloody murder if all four of those classes weren't in the PHB. So they had to have three power sources in it. Likewise with the PHB2, as they still had to release the Sorcerer, Barbarian, Druid, and Bard, who also straddled three power sources.
But what did they do with the other four classes? Did they introduce new Ki, Shadow, or Elemental classes? Nope. They polished off the Arcane, Divine, and Primal Power Sources. They did that so they could put out Arcane Power, Divine Power, and Primal Power right away. That, I think, will be what governs their thinking from here on out. Putting out enough classes in each subsequent PHB to justify putting out as many Power books in the interim. And that means two power sources in the next two PHB's, in order to release two Power books right after each, instead of one after PHB3, and three after PHB4.
That, from a development and sales point of view, makes the most sense. You spread the workload on Power books evenly across two years, instead of putting 25% of the workload in one year and 75% of the workload in another. You pad the book schedules in both years, rather than having one year light while the next year is a bit heavy. And the developers get to focus on only two power sources at a time, and creating a nice varied selection for both, rather than splitting their attention between three power sources. For all those reasons, I think two power sources for the next two PHB's makes the most sense.
As for PHB5 and beyond? Either 1) Introduce new power sources, with new classes, or 2) Introduce new classes for older power sources (No reason Arcane is the only power source that can have six classes. And you never know. They may just end up figuring out how to make a Martial Controller or a ranged Defender). I think a mix of 1 and 2 is likely.
The patience of the remaining player-base (those who haven't already jumped ship) is on thin-ice as is, especially in light of the high percentage of players who harbour anger and resentment towards Wizards for their (apparent) money-grab mentality, and for splitting up the "core" classes (as players see it) into no less than three separate PHBs.
Should Wizards fail to make good on their promise to release the outstanding classes they have promised us (Psionic Classes plus the Monk, Illusionist, and Necromancer) by the time the PHB3 is released - I expect that our patience with Wizards will wear thin and you will see a mass exodus from the game in favour of pathfinder, or other RPG systems.....
This is especially true when you consider the fact that there is far less demand for the Elemental classes (eg. Wu Jen) than there is for any of the above-mentioned classes, and the amount of anger which would be created should Wizards release the "Elemental" classes before making good on their above promise.
Were I to hazard a guess, I would say that the PHBIII will cover the Psi (4), Shadow (2), and Ki (2) power sources, while the PHBIV will cover the Elemental (4), Shadow (2) and Ki (2) power sources - if the PHBI and II are an indication for how future PHBs will be formatted.
I think your logic is flawed. You too frequently take classes from 3e, and port them into 4e to fill all the slots. I don't think this is a good idea. Look at the primal power source- the druid is still present, as is the barbarian, but the warden is essentially new and the shaman, while it existed in the old edition, is similar in almost nothing but name. Similar issues exist with the divine classes- the Invoker and the Avenger are basically new.
And I find your observations somewhat flawed.
Invoker, heralds not an entirely new class but rather the return of a more spellcasting focused divine class, one that is more concerned with debilitating enemies then aiding allies. It's not a new class, rather, it's the return of what got cut out of the cleric. Also many have noted that the invoker laid claim to much f the Favored Soul's flavor.
Shaman and Warden are much the same thing for Druid. The old 3.5 druid was simply to diverse to fit single a 4E role, so it got chopped up into three parts. Though the Warden also absorbed some of the Barbarian's uber toughness that doesn't quite mesh with the striker role.
The only thing that looks to be an entirely new class is the Avenger, and even at that their were probably several 3.5 prestige classes that it could be said to be taking after.
Anyway I've said it before I might as well say it one more time.
PHB3, my hopes...
- Monk (ki striker): Popularly desired class. Source and role have all but already been confirmed.
- Samurai (ki defender): Not just because it's Asian. I won't list my reasoning here. Any one who cares can check this ancient thread.
- Psion (psionic controller): Popularly desired class. Should focus on telepathic (psychic damage) and telekinetic (force damage) attacks.
- Psi-blade (psionic striker): Renamed from soulknife to remove confusion with Ki power source and to make the shape of the weapon ambiguous/customizable. Those who want this as a Ki class make a good point, however I prefer it here. Plus the class has always reminded me of Psylocke from X-men.
- Dark Knight (shadow defender): Not actual name, but rather a concept. Evil paladins are okay, but I'd like to see something that can claim such a tilter without being evil. I envision them somewhat as a pseudo-hybrid of mostly paladin with a splash rogue, much like the old Blackguard prestige class. I've seen people suggest hexblade for this slot, and while I feel that has merit, II feel hexbalde is better suited in both theme and name as melee variant of the warlock.
- Illusionist (shadow controller): Popularly desired class.
- Necromancer (shadow leader): Popularly desired class. Once upon a time (1st edition) all healing effects were considered necromantic. Also, "summoning" and commanding undead minions seems leadery enough.
- Ninja (shadow striker): Hate them or love them, everybody recognizes them. Rogues make fair enough mundane ninja, but I'd like to see a nice mystical ninja. It would function much as the OP's Shadow Dancer, but I feel that Ninja is a better choice of name as it is likely to carry substantial traction.
Will Monk fans be disappointed if it's not in the PHB3? Sure. But let's face facts. There's not a whole lot of them. :P And if they focus entirely on Psionic and Shadow, then Psionics, Illusion, and Necromancy fans will be ecstatic, and all the rest will be entranced by all the shiny new stuff. And they'll be doubly happy when their relevant Power books are released soon after. The whole of WotC imploding into a black hole because the Monk hasn't been released, by comparison, seems like a very, very, very low probability.
Your logic, while sound - discounts the fact that the dev's have said (on numerous occassions) that they are working on recreating the Illusionist as a stand-alone class, much like its 1E ancestor was.
Illusionist
-Wizard illusion spells limited to save space for a potential future Illusionist class, Source
-Mentioned as possibly relating to the shadow power source, Source
That's all ya got.
We actually have several large clues about the Shadow power source. Everyone focuses on two of them: Shadow covers necromancy and illusion. Everyone ignores all the rest: Shadow covers all the material in the Shadow keyworded powers that already exist, and Shadow was a major element in several 3e classes particularly near the end of the development cycle. Major themes include reflections,
The problem with the popular prediction lists for the Shadow power source are that they take the elements of arcane magic that were added to the Shadow power source, and allow them to dominate. The actual shadow gets left out. If you stop at four classes, once you add an Illusionist and a Necromancer, then throw in a rogue-type and a defender-type, you're out of options for someone who actually casts spells that cover significant portions of the spells used by previous Shadow themed characters. Those abilities have to go somewhere. I don't know for sure what will happen, but I'm pretty sure that they're going to be included somehow.
Were I to hazard a guess as to which will occur, I would say the Soulknife would kill the Psychic Warrior in light of the fact that:
I don't think it makes much difference, honestly. They'll devour each other and then a name will be assigned. Probably we'll get a character who gets a soulknife as a class feature, and then has a power list heavily influenced by the 3e psychic warrior's talent list.
It is the Dev's intention that the Ki Power Source not become a catch-all pseudo-asian power source, and to instead categorize the "asian" classes, not on their origins, but on their flavour.
Yeah, I'm sure that's their intention.
But Incarnum was really not popular. Ninjas and samurai, on the other hand, are. And for most people, a samurai using Ki pretty easy to grasp, while a ki using... well, whatever incarnum guys are, isn't.
2) Re: Samurai/Ninja
Given the overlap, the 4E fighter killed the Samurai and stole its stuff, while the 4E Rogue sneak attacked the Ninja and divided its stuff with the Monk and/or Shadow Dancer (assuming it makes an appearance). As such, I expect that neither of these classes will make an appearance as anything more than paragon paths for the Fighter and Monk/Rogue respectively.
I think this is extremely wrong. I'm pretty sure that telling fans that there won't be an actual ninja or samurai would be about as crazy as telling them that there won't be a druid. They'll be there somehow. The names are too important.
You could create a samurai or ninja in 3e before they were officially released, too. Didn't stop them then.
Sure, the monk was in the PHB. But the illusionist and necromancer were only available via the severely underwhelming wizard specialisations, and the psion was in its own book. Players wanting to run anything like a stand-alone necro class had to wait for Heroes of Horror's dread necromancer, and I don't know whether a bona fide illusionist ever showed up; the beguiler perhaps being the closest thing to it. (I'm not familiar with shadowcasters).
Assuming the buzz is true, the illusionist will be appearing as its own class for the first time since 1st Edition, and the necromancer will appear as its own class for the first time ever. This doesn't sound to me like "essential classes that should have been in the PHBs yesterday". Also, it amuses me that the psionic classes are placed in the vital-core category. They never were before; in 3.5, as in every other version, the psionic classes were fringe.
Some time later we get new classes
-Joni
Maybe the Psy-Warrior and the Soulblade aren't trying to kill eachother. Maybe they got together, talked about stuff, found out they had certain things in common and decided to hook up.
:D
When the dungeon's a' rockin'....
PHB III:
-Ardent = Psionic Defender
-Empath = Psionic Leader
-Illusionist = Shadow Controller
-Monk = Ki Striker
-Necromancer = Shadow Leader
-Sohei/Soulknife = Ki Defender
-Shaper/Wilder = Psionic Controller
-Telepath = Psionic Striker
The reason I don't see a class being called Psion, is since the power source is called Psionic, it would be like having an Arcane class called Arca, and Psychic Warrior is a two word title, and 4th Ed classes only have one word titles (and it seems a tad generic).
That's just me, I could be totally wrong about all of these predictions.
Then there is the fact that Telepathy is a very hard mechanic to quantify in 4E whereas influencing/inducing emotion (Fear, Rage, etc) is fairly easy to adjudicate within the rules.... Telepathy (granting Attack/Defense Bonuses and rerolls) would be little more than an extension of that IMO.
Then again, the Power "Pre-Emptive Strike" does have a nice ring to it.
Perhaps the Kineticist (Blaster) would be a better choice, although admittedly - I feel this would be best suited as an alternate Monk build released in Ki Power for obvious [cough: anime] reasons.
I love the name Ardent.... Although wouldn't the Telepath be too similar to the Empath, so as to step on each others toes? I mean - there is little distinction between Telepathy (ability to read/alter thoughts) and Empathy (ability to read/alter emotions) in the RW.
Then again, the Power "Pre-Emptive Strike" does have a nice ring to it.
Perhaps the Kineticist (Blaster) would be a better choice?
Well I was thinking the Telepath would mentally blast people, but I totally like the Kineticist as well (though the title is slightly clunky for my tastes).
Psychokinetic, Pyrokinetic.... something along those lines seems closer to the mark. In any case, I still think the "Blaster" role should be reserved for an anime-inspired monk build....
I can see it now:
Player 1: Hadoken!!
Player 2: Kamehameha!!!!!
DM: Im never letting you play a Ki-Blaster monk again. No more "Ki Power" for you!
Striker: Shadowdancer (sub controller)
Defender: Hexblade (sub controller)
Leader: Something new to hell with the necromancer that isn't shadow.
Controller: Shadowcaster (sub leader)
Ki:
Striker: Monk (sub defender)
Defender: Sohei (sub striker)
Leader: something incarnum like
Controller: see leader... or this could be the monk
Psionic:
Striker: Souknife (sub defender) or wilder (sub leader)
Defender: Psychic Warrior (sub leader)
Leader: Empath (sub striker)
Controller: Psion (sub defender
Elemental:
Striker: something fire related
Defender: something earth related
Leader: Shuegenja (water related)
Controller: Wind related
PHB III: Psionic, Ki, and Martial Power Sources. Psionic and Ki make up most of the book, but there are one or two Martial classes to help flesh out that Power Source a bit more (possibly even a hope of a Martial Controller). This balances out the "two new Power Sources each year" and "three Power Sources each book" system, and keeps a healthy balance of old and new. I chose these three because, much like the PHB2 sources (which were all highly magical), they combine together into a decent theme of related power sources (Mind, Body, and Soul, focus on meditation, discipline, and hand-to-hand combat, asian themes, etc). It also leave the PHB4 to combine the more magical Shadow and Elemental sources.
The book may contain the following:
Psion: Psionic Controller. Either a telepath or a telekinesis/pyrokinesis/etc kind of psiychic, or maybe both. Hard to say, really.
Soulknife: I agree that the Soulknife and the Psychic Warrior are probably going to be fused, and I chose this name simply because I like it better. Psionic Defender or Striker.
Unknown Psionic Leader: Psionic Leaders can easily work... I can imagine one based on telepathic powers pretty easily.
Unknown Psionic Class: There is probably going to be a psionic striker, and if the Soulknife is a striker, there is probably going to be a second one. This would be less melee centered than the Soulknife.
Monk: This is going to be the Ki Striker. Ki blasts, punches that knock a guy back 30 feet, jumping off walls in order to kick your enemy in the face... I imagine we might see the old Setting Sun discipline reappear with this class, and that it might lean towards being a Controller. This better be an utterly fantastic class, or I will be disappointed. I don't want Ki to be a renamed Martial, and I doubt that it will.
"Swordsage": I don't think they will use that name, since there is a Swordmage, but I expect to see the concept. The classic unarmored Samurai/Wuxia swordmaster class. The kind of guy who can cut an army down without anyone ever seeing him draw his sword. Melee Ki Controller.
Ki Classes X1 and X2: Ki Leader or Defender classes. Really not sure, actually. Maybe a Ki archer class. Plenty of room to expand the Ki concept, so I imagine we will see lots of new ideas.
Samurai: Martial Controller. The offensive version of the Warlord, who is also possibly skilled at archery. Wide area fear effects, etc. I can accept a Martial Ranged Defender with this name, though.
Cavalier: Martial class focusing on mounted combat. Either a Striker or Controller.
PHB IV: Elemental and Shadow Power Sources, plus one other old one (Primal, maybe?). This would probably be a much more magic-focused PHB. It could possibly contain...
Necromancer: Shadow Leader. The classic master of the dark arts. It might very well focus as much on shades and the "animus" as it does on classic undeath, and it probably won't be as vile as the traditional necromancer archetype.
"Illusionist": Shadow Controller. I doubt it will have this name, and I don't think it would be a straight port of the old Illusionist-Wizard either. It would probably be a class built around shaping thoughts and shadows into something resembling reality, and is probably just as capable of strangling you to death with your own shadow as tricking you into seeing a monster.
Other Shadow Classes: I can't even guess, really. If any power source lends itself to having a number of different Controllers, this may be it...
Elemental Mage Class: Elemental Controller. The class that is traditionally known as either the Wu Jen or Shugenja in D&D.
Ninja: Elemental Striker. Yes, I said Elemental. As I have mentioned many times in various threads, we already have a non-magical "ninja" with the Rogue, so we may as well see a more magical one. If you don't see the link between Ninja and elements, then you have not played enough videogames and seen enough anime.
Other Elemental Classes: I can't really guess. I do expect them to maintain some kind of Asian theme to the Elemental Power Source, but beyond that I am not sure.
The reason I don't see a class being called Psion, is since the power source is called Psionic, it would be like having an Arcane class called Arca, and Psychic Warrior is a two word title, and 4th Ed classes only have one word titles (and it seems a tad generic).
I agree that Psion might be to close to the name of the power source, but I felt it was the best compromise since I envisioned it as both a telepath and a kineticist. Telepathy and Telekineses are probably the two most common psionic abilities, and it not at all uncommon for them to be paired together in popular fiction, to some degree or another. I figure it's important that there be a class that can be played as either or both depending on the direction the player takes it.
Telepathy and Telekineses are probably the two most common psionic abilities, and it not at all uncommon for them to be paired together in popular fiction, to some degree or another.
Absolutely, but I would actually like telekinesis and telepathy to be domains of separate classes, but I can see justification for either of them being a controller or a striker, what do you think?
And really it makes sense. Going by what they've done already published (or will publish) in PHBs, we have 4 power sources with 4 classes each. Ideally with one class per combat role, though that obviously is not a hard rule.
Extrapolating that across 4 PHBs gives us all 8 power sources with 4 classes each, and hopefully 8 classes in each combat role.
I also think that they'll release only 2 power sources in PHB 3 and two in PHB 4, so they can release the power source books in a timely manner.
Steely Dan- I agree with you that maybe there shouldn't be a psion- instead, maybe the psion should be busted up and given to multiple character classes. But I don't think that will happen. The name is too powerful, and the ways of fandom are harsh and merciless.
But it's only been around since 3rd Ed, in 2nd Ed it was Psionicist, so there's not that much legacy to me.
Absolutely, but I would actually like telekinesis and telepathy to be domains of separate classes, but I can see justification for either of them being a controller or a striker, what do you think?
I would rather see telepathy as and telekinesis as two aspects of the same class. Telepathy and telekinesis are the two most generic kinds of psionic manifestation and while either can work fine on its own I feel they work much better together.
For me having as single class cover both telepathy and telekinesis is like how cleric covers both melee and spellcasting or how ranger covers both two-weapon and archery. With both classes the concepts could be fine on their own, but something is gained by marrying them together. It makes for a more versatile class capable of fulfilling more archetypes than either concept could on its own.
Posted by Tharag Bocc:
Also, "summoning" and commanding undead minions seems leadery enough.
Really? That's interesting. Both of the current summoning classes are controllers. I suppose you can use summons to provide flanking, but I fail to see what other even remotely leader-type benefit they can provide, unless they pull a Diablo 2 Druid and have summons with party-buff auras, which really doesn't seem like a Necromancer to me.
The only Necromancer-ish abilities which seem Leaderly to me are things in the line of thought of False Life, and I just don't see enough potential there to base an entire class on. I'm personally betting on Controller for Necromancer, though I could see Striker as well; anything else would thoroughly surprise me.
Besides, Leaders are about providing benefits to your allies. Since when is being a Necromancer being about helping out your buddies? I always thought it was more like using dark powers to screw with your enemies. Hmm, what does that sound like... oh, yeah. It sounds like a Controller! :P
My thoughts, anyway. I seem to be horribly outnumbered, but we'll see what happens.
Area or targeted enemy defence or attack debuffs. These have similar functions to buffing the party's attacks or defences, and as such work for a leader.
Temporary hit points and healing, representing the reanimation of dead flesh around a wound, or invigorating the ally with dark power. 'False Life' as a 'X_word' type class feature granting temp HP could work very well for a necromantic leader.
Vampyric Powers that transfer life force via hit points from an enemy to the necromancer or his allies could work.
An undead pet that performed any or all of these functions would also fit. Imagine a ghostly servant who drains life with a touch, and can then transfer life it has gained to an ally. For other ways a pet/summoning class can work for the leader role, se PHBII's Shaman.
Immediate reaction powers to heal an ally when an enemy drops to 0 hit points would also be both very leadery and very necromantic.
I'm not saying that a Necromancer class has to be, or even should be a Leader. Necromancer-as-Striker and Necromancer-as-Controller both have at least as much to build on. I'm just saying that there is enough potential in the concept to build a class if the designers opted to go that way, especially when you consider that the class could then minor in controller or striker.
And while the only summoning class we've seen is a wizard variant build, undead servants for necromancers really seem to work better as permanent pets, and the two pet classes we've seen are striker (beastmaster ranger) and Leader (shaman).
Not saying that WOTC will do that, just that they could.
KI -
Monk (Ki Striker): One of the easier archetypes to imagine. Will probably use Strength, Dexterity and Wisdom as its primary stats. There might be a move defensive build focusing on dodging and throwing enemies around (similar to the Setting Sun discipline from 3E), and an offensive build focusing on flurries of powerful attacks and techniques. Ki Power might add a ranged build for making a DBZ-style monk that shoots balls of ki at his enemies.
Samurai/Sohei (Ki Defender): I see this being less based on prior 'samurai' classes and being more of a 'monk with weapons'. Mobility will probably be a big theme for the ki classes, and the samurai/sohei will focus on rushing in and locking down enemies with powerful sword/spear techniques. I can guess that Strength, Dexterity, and Charisma would fit best as stats.
Channeler/Incarnate (Ki Leader): A 'ki leader' class that focuses on channeling spirit energy within himself and his allies. This is probably where most of the Incarnum stuff will go.
Ninja (Ki Controller or Striker): Ninja might also be a Shadow class, depending on its focus. Because 'mundane' ninja and samurai can be represented with some reflavoring of martial classes, a 'true' ninja class will likely be outright mystical in nature. There might be both a Strikerish 'assassination' build and a Controllerish 'ninja magic' build. I can see a ninja using STR, DEX, and INT; or DEX, INT, and WIS.
PSIONICS -
Psion/Esper/Mentalist (Psionic Controller): Will probably focus less on elemental blasting (except for a few pyrokinetic or electrokinetic powers), and more on telekinetic(force) and mind control(psychic) powers.
Empath (Psionic Leader): Not sure how this might turn out.
Soulblade (Psionic Striker): Psychic Warrior might be absorbed into this, or it might emerge as a new Defender class.
SHADOW -
Illusionist (Shadow Controller): I'm thinking the Illusionist might eat the Shadowcaster, and pick up his shadow powers in addition to the regular array of illusions. Beguiler might also be a major influence on the creation of a new Illusionist class, and this class may pick up some roguish abilities as well.
Necromancer (Shadow Controller): Now that I think about it, Necromancer doesn't really work as a primary leader. He might get a secondary Striker or Leader focus, depending on his powers and build. The Dread Necromancer may be an influence on how the Necromancer class turns out.
Hexblade (Shadow Defender): This seems like a concept that might get reimagined for the Shadow source.
Phantom (Shadow Striker): If the Shadow Striker isn't a Ninja, they might go a different route. Basically, this concept would combine the shadowdancer with some undead flavor; where the class picks up some vampiric or ghost-like abilities through an internal link to the Shadowfell.
Elemental is probably the least-realized power source, and the hardest to set apart from other sources, so I think it might fall back to PHB4.
For me having as single class cover both telepathy and telekinesis is like how cleric covers both melee and spellcasting or how ranger covers both two-weapon and archery. With both classes the concepts could be fine on their own, but something is gained by marrying them together. It makes for a more versatile class capable of fulfilling more archetypes than either concept could on its own.
Yeah, I'm with ya, I dig it, the class could focus more on telepathy or telekinesis depending on the build, so would the class be a controller (or striker…?) leaning towards another role depending on the build?
And what would be a good title for the class?
I also believe PHB 5 will be the book where the designers get to show if they can stick to their principles and not start producing (for example) classes that are meaningless variations or weapons/feats/whatever that are unbalanced.
Those are the two traditional non-splashy psionic abilities. Mind reading, talking directly into the minds of others, and throwing things around. They fit together.
I don't know if that will happen, I'd just like it if it did.
In all honesty - I fully expect that by the time the PH3 (and subsequent PHBs) begin production, more of those 80 pages will be devoted to character options than in the PH1 or PH2 - as there will be less need for new (or expanded) rules by that point (esp. considering how many "rules" could be crammed into the DMG2, and DMG3).
As such, I can see the logic of them using ~30 of those 80+ pages to flesh out two additional classes (and subsequently giving us a 4/4/2 split), in addition to having room for 10-15 pages of Epic Destinies/book (vs. 4 pages in the PH1).
Doing so would only increase the crunchy appeal of future PHBs.
Now, as I am certain that the Forum mod's would pass this idea onto the Developers if it gains popularity on the forums - do you prefer a 4/4/2 split; a 4/3/3 split; or a 4/2/2/2 split to appear in the PH3, and in addition, which power sources do you prefer to occupy each split?
On second thought, this deserves its own thread.
Yeah, I'm with ya, I dig it, the class could focus more on telepathy or telekinesis depending on the build, so would the class be a controller (or striker…?) leaning towards another role depending on the build?
I definitely see them as a controller, though that may only be because the 3.5 psion was a wizard equivalent. Regardless, I would say the telepathy build would be almost pure controller with a splash of leader (projecting ones thought to bolster allies), while the telekinetic build would have striker-like tendencies.
Now, as I am certain that the Forum mod's would pass this idea onto the Developers if it gains popularity on the forums - do you prefer a 4/4/2 split; a 4/3/3 split; or a 4/2/2/2 split to appear in the PH3, and in addition, which power sources do you prefer to occupy each split?
4/4/2
There's hardly any point in squeezing extra classes into the book unless it allows for a quicker release of additional power books. That being said, classes take up a lot of room. As much as I'd love to see more classes, if squeezing two extra classes into the book results in another short changed class that all but requires expansion in a power book like the paladin, than I'm opposed to the entire idea.
Might as well get my bets on the table:
- Empath: Psi leader. No argument there.
- Unknown name: Psi controller. It's a given that we'll have one, but "psion" and "psionicist" are both underwhelming and misleading names (aren't all psi-user psions?). Not kineticist; the focus will be on psychic attacks, not blowing stuff up. Wilders have little history, and it's crap. Erudite is a possibility.
- Unknown. I'm tempted to fall into the symmetry trap, but I have to resist it. I don't think it'll be another striker, but it could be any of the other three roles.
- Shadowdancer: Shadow striker. Obvious name, obvious role. Might be a paragon path, but why bother? With shadow being a power source of its own, this is perfect. If the name is unwieldy, skulk is good.
- Assassin and Necromancer: Not present. I know this will shock people, but "assassin" is a job, not a class, and carries connotations that lend themselves poorly to a good-aligned group effort. Necromancers also make much better villains than heroes, and I don't think WotC will buy any justifications for good-aligned characters animating the dead. Besides, the shadowfell has no direct tie with the undead now. That being said:
- Channeler: Shadow leader. The shadowfell does have ties with the dead who have passed on. A leader who relies on the "blessings" of the dearly departed seems natural.
- Unknown name: Shadow defender. The concept of a shadow knight is too cool and too well-supported in video games to have escaped WotC's notice. A mark that assaults enemies with shadowy energy when they ignore it is a great visual and lends itself to many mechanical options.