Myself, I'm thinking it might be a Controller, likely using a modified variant of the existing 'summon' rules if it actually does summon undead like it used to instead of like a FF Summoner; they appear, likely attack an enemy around them when they do, then sit where they were summoned and block space until/unless the Necromancer spends an action to make them do something.
Additionally, or alternatively, the Necromancer could focus on "death magic" and/or replicating the attacks of undead via spells. This would give it a theme of Necrotic damage, possibly with Psychic (mental/spiritual assault) and even Thunder (banshee-style screams), and allow it to become either Controller or Striker.
But those are my few rambling thoughts on the matter. What do you think the Necromancer will do when we finally see it?
I wonder why people still think that there will be a shadow power source.
Because of the very last sentence of p. 54 of the PHB.
"Future power sources include elemental, ki, primal, psionic, and shadow."
:D
I wonder why people still think that there will be a shadow power source.
Respectfully, sir: you got pwned. ;)
Personally, I'm actually imagining Necromancer to be a Shadow Leader, raising undead minions and manipulating the forces of death to empower them and his allies. I also speculate the Illusionist to be a Shadow Controller, although I could be convinced to switch the roles of Illusionist and Necromancer, with the Illusionist using illusory/shadow minions rather than undead. I also think we'll see the Hexblade as a Shadow Defender, and I'd like to see the Ninja as a Shadow Striker. (I don't buy the whole, "Asian = Ki class" argument anymore.)
I do not want 1 player to take 20 minutes for his turn because has, effectively, a dozen characters to play.
I would expect it to be a Shadow Controller, relying heavily on status effects like weakened, immobilized, as well as a lot of fear effects to make targets move around; most of its damage will be necrotic. I could also see some 'fate manipulation', kind of like the Star Pact Warlock does with manipulating a target's d20 rolls.
Striker: Spells like Ray of enffeblement, vampiric touch, and utlities like wraith form
leader/controler: the undead master...
It is not because of a lack of powerful ranged attacks... but because the necromancer wont have the manuverablity in battle like the ranger/rogue/warlock have.
The wizard has plenty of good ranged spells, but you dont want to overload on them because then that will reduce his AoE powers, which are his real bread and butter (and what a controller is there for.)
The wizard (controller) also has very limited abilities to actually shift and fight in close quarters combat, unlike the strikers.
The necromancer will be a Controller with some limited healing abilities. Powers like the Palidin's Death Ward I feel will be very much apart of the necromancer.
Palidin= defender with some leader characteristics
Necromancer= controller with some leader characteristics
I hope they dont make something similar to the Dark Pact warlock. It is an intersting idea, but from my experience hurting teammates in anything but an evil campaign never goes well.
It may even be divine....Servant of Orcus perhaps? but I doubt it.
The 'undead armies' will probably be represented through the use of 'player-controlled minions', which are very fragile and only have a basic attack (which may not even require a roll). Moving these around will probably require the necromancer to spend minor or move actions. Additionally, or alternatively, they may focus on walls or conjurations that manifest as an undead horde that blocks enemy progress and damages them.
If the necromancer is more leaderish, there may be abilities that allow him to sacrifice minions/corpses to give him or his allies a healing boost. A more controller-like necromancer may have other abilities that interact with enemy corpses (raising them as undead minions, or detonating the corpses for damage Diablo-style). He'll probably focus mostly on necrotic and acid/poison damage for his damaging powers.
Either way, I see Controller being the most likely role for a Necromancer (Leader could work as well, if built right).
A necromancer is not likely going to be a striker.
It is not because of a lack of powerful ranged attacks... but because the necromancer wont have the manuverablity in battle like the ranger/rogue/warlock have.
Though a shadow striker class probably won't be called a Necromancer, mobility could be achieved by turning into a shadow form, or taking on some vampire-like abilities and turning into a bat (or flock of bats) for flight.
Because what else does an illusionist do but make fake terrain, hinder enemies, delay, confuse, and dish limited damage? They're textbook controllers.
So a necromancer has to be something else unfortunately, despite being best suited for a controller role... (unless they're making multiple shadow controllers and have lots of ideas for strikers/leaders/defenders).
Okay, necromancer then is best suited to be a leader or a striker.
A leader would 'lead' through minions and created undead (like the artificer and their artifice). They might also raise fallen foes.
They could bolster allies by drawing life from enemies, transferring negative conditions from friends to foes, return fallen allies to limited life, etc. They can place their limited minion or raised figures to aid and defend and otherwise assist allies.
So the two builds would likely be one related to raising undead and controlling spirits to help, as well buffing allies and said minions, and a second build that would likely focus on draining life and stealing vitality for allies.
A striker would likely just be a life-leach who drains energy and weakens his foes. But this seems unlikely...
I like the leader angle too Jester,but I imagine that in that case instead of controlling summoned dead...He would charm them somehow into following him,which would give him greater scope,but also present the possibility that he could lose control of his minions.They could then turn on him and/or gnaw on the party.I think some cool situations could arise then.Imagine that a powerful necro has an enthralled vampire and he gets taken out...suddenly Vlad is on the loose!
I seriously doubt they'd do that. Even the poster boy for party self-destruction, the Frenzied Berserker of 3rd, no longer risks attacking a party member. It would absolutely suck. Plus, I highly doubt WotC will ever have long-term charms/dominations in 4th, because they make the social skills obsolete.
Shadow Leader works well, though, because necromancy is the power of life and death. There could be healing effects and temporary HP all over the place. It would be like a negative cleric ... instead of being up to its armpits in Radiant and Fire damage, it could have mostly Necrotic and Cold damage.
As far as the Shadow Striker goes ... that's a Ninja.
Then, to simulate hordes of undead, it might have tons of "terrain" and "obstacle" and "wall" effects. Imagine casting a spell that places X obstacles on unoccupied spaces within range, that can't attack unless an action is spent on them (be it minor, move or standard, varying from spell to spell), but that has a very minor set of stats, and can make opportunity attacks, or statically attacks all adjacent enemies each turn. Some might not have a sustain, like many of the Cleric prayers, but will instead last for the encounter blocking terrain and buffing and/or debuffing. Even encounter powers could do this, albeit obviously not to the same degree as the dailies seen thus far. Or a wall that can have its shape changed with each sustain. Basically, obstacles and terrain features that can move around the battlefield would be the best way to simulate hordes of undead, IMHO.
i still think he will be a controller but i had to play devils advocate here.
Respectfully, sir: you got pwned. ;)
Personally, I'm actually imagining Necromancer to be a Shadow Leader, raising undead minions and manipulating the forces of death to empower them and his allies. I also speculate the Illusionist to be a Shadow Controller, although I could be convinced to switch the roles of Illusionist and Necromancer, with the Illusionist using illusory/shadow minions rather than undead. I also think we'll see the Hexblade as a Shadow Defender, and I'd like to see the Ninja as a Shadow Striker. (I don't buy the whole, "Asian = Ki class" argument anymore.)
respectfully no, i asked a question and got an answer.
you see i never read the whole phb.
to be precise I got schooled.....
On a side note, why can't there be two shadow controllers there are two martial strikers in the current PHB.
If they do a Necromancer (personally I hope they don't, dosn't seem "heroic" to me)
It's all in the play, really. Due to pop culture and several of 3rd edition's Prestige Classes with 'non-good' or 'evil' as prerequisites, the common image of necromancers is the black-clad, skull-helmetted, bone-staff wielding head of an army of shambling corpses.
Animating undead is only a small part of what necromancy entails. I played an Exalted necromancer in 3rd and had no alignment issues.
Necromancy could easily be life and death ... they could be the best undead hunters in the game.
If they do a Necromancer (personally I hope they don't, dosn't seem "heroic" to me)
And thievery *is* heroic? Just because of that whole "he stole from the rich and gave to the poor" doesn't mean that stealing is heroic.
On-topic: I think the Necromancer class will be a striker, like the Ranger. It will be a Warlock (with ranged attack powers) and have an undead companion that can be controlled in battle (like the beast companion). It just makes sense.
Also, why would WotC wait until another PHB comes out to introduce the Necromancer? Truth be told, it *could* just be a different build option for the Wizard or Cleric (Or Warlock, for that matter, but a Necromantic Pact? Nah....) and since WotC is going to be publishing a whole book about Undead in January, we might just get the Necromancer then.
Also, the undead summoned by the Necromancer could be a 1 turn deal, like the Cleric's Guardian prayers. It works thematically because the Necromancer would summon the undead for that moment. There is already a ritual to Animate Dead, so for longer term undead, the Necromancer could use that. They could also expand on the Animate Dead ritual, producing more exotic undead for higher level rituals (and higher cost.)
respectfully no, i asked a question and got an answer.
you see i never read the whole phb.
to be precise I got schooled.....
That works, too. ;)
Also, why would WotC wait until another PHB comes out to introduce the Necromancer? Truth be told, it *could* just be a different build option for the Wizard or Cleric (Or Warlock, for that matter, but a Necromantic Pact? Nah....) and since WotC is going to be publishing a whole book about Undead in January, we might just get the Necromancer then.
They(well Rich Baker has) have stated that they held back on necromancy powers for the Wizard so they could potentially be used for a future Necromancer class. It isn't a guarantee there will be a class, but it seems quite likely.
And it won't be in Open Grave for any reason because player options are not in DM/monster books anymore.
The necromancer would have a single minion with him at all times(similar to the beastmaster). many of his powers would originate from his minion, though the necromancer himself would stand back from the fight. Powers would include things like giving his minion an attack with nromal damage plus some sort of status problem, like weakened or dazed, maybe sapping. He would also have some powers that allow him to attack directly with a spell and have his minion make a basic attack so that the necromancer has combat advantage. Fear effects could keep his enemies from attacking him directly. Daily powers could sacrifice his minion to devastating effect. Example: The minion explodes in a dark cloud that weakens your foes and grants you concealment. You gain temporary hp and that will give you time to raise one of your dropped foes as your next minion. Healing for the minion using surges is a must.
Maybe a ritual for raising the minion would be a good idea so that raising a minion in an encounter isn't such a good idea and sacrificing isn't taken as lightly. This could make the daily sacrificing abilities more powerful though, granting boons and ailments to you, allies and foes for the duration of an encounter and leaving you to certain at-will and encounter abilities as your defenses. Binding your minion to yourself as armor and making you a lethal melee combatant would be an epic tier power I would like to see, using your ranged, single-target powers as weapon attacks while bound.
Utilities could include your minion teleporting to you to take damage from an attack for you and defending you in several way. Switching places with your minion within so many squares seems likely for a necromancer build like this.
And to balance the power, if your minion dies in combat from an effect or attack that was not made by yourself, you take damage. This could represent the link between you and your minion. maybe the minion has 1/4 of your hp and you lose 1/4 your hp if it dies. This would make radiant damage a problem, so the necromancers minion doesn't have the same vulnerability as it's kin thanks to your necromantic powers.
And of course, your minion wouldn't be your only undead ally. You might have powers that take control of undead of your level or lower for a turn or raise more to attack for one turn. Daily powers for another build could give you qualities of certain undead. Example: "Vampiric Manifestation" could give your attacks extra necrotic damage that you gain as hp or temp hp, while giving your body vulnerability to radiant damage and bright sunlight, while using this powers ability to dominate an enemy until the end of your next turn ends these other effects that would normally last the encounter.
WotC knows a necromancer class is wished, and they make us wait.
I don´t imagine shadow power for lawul good PCs. A character who uses negative energy can´t be good. A good necromancer heroe is possible for Diablo II, no for D&D.
If psionic and shadow will be in PH 3... who will buy PH4 with elemental and ki powers? (fans or Oriental adventures?).
I apologise if this is the wrong forum, but it seemed the most likely place to put this up. The general speculation is that the Necromancer, originally a specialist wizard, will appear as an independant class in the Shadow power source PHB (whichever one that turns out to be), alongside the Illusionist. But I was wondering: what do people think that the Necromancer will actually do in battle once it's finally released? What role will it play in the party, and what will be the "schtick" of its powers?
I'm not going to derail the thread, but I'd like to remind everyone of the existence of the Shadowcaster.
The Shadowcaster basically led to the creation of the Shadow power source. Its powers were heavily themed after the Plane of Shadow. I wouldn't go assuming just yet that we will have an Illusionist and a Necromancer at all- there's a fair chance that that these archetypes, or at least one of them, will be eaten by the Shadowcaster.
Remember, in 3e, the Illusionist and Necromancer weren't even Shadow powered. I know, I know, we didn't use power source nomenclature back then, but it existed. And illusion and necromancy weren't part of Shadow. There were classes which WERE part of Shadow, and I think its best to start with them if you want to guess where the Shadow power source is heading in the future. Start with the Shadowcaster, and the Shadowdancer PRC.
(For the record, my predictions: Shadow Controller: Shadowcaster. Shadow Striker: Shadowdancer. Shadow Defender: Hexblade, or more likely, a new class that ate the Hexblade's stuff. I've got no idea on the fourth. Could be a necromancer, since the Shadowcaster only dabbled very lightly in negative energy, and almost never in true necromancy. There probably won't be an illusionist, instead, every one of the above classes will use some amount of illusions.)
I don´t imagine necromancer class like creator of undead minions. There isn´t minions nor sidesicks for PC in 4th ed.
I would think, since not all necromancers would raise undead, that there would be a build or two for each. Necromancers who have undead would specialize more on their minions ability to fight, while still sending out blast and area spells making it a kind of striker/controller or maybe a defender/controller. Necromancers who don't have a build with the minion will have more ability to buff there allies(maybe have damage your allies deal sap to heal you or them), dominate, cause fear and cripple your enemies and give him a leader/controller feel. Giving your allies the ability to sap hp would give you a way to heal while still maintaining a dark ideal. They could force others to take their damage and harm their willing allies for additional effects like the dark pact warlock or even give them that same amount of hp.
I'm not worried. WotC are doing a pretty god job so far.
I'm not going to derail the thread, but I'd like to remind everyone of the existence of the Shadowcaster.
The Shadowcaster basically led to the creation of the Shadow power source. Its powers were heavily themed after the Plane of Shadow. I wouldn't go assuming just yet that we will have an Illusionist and a Necromancer at all- there's a fair chance that that these archetypes, or at least one of them, will be eaten by the Shadowcaster.
Given that so much is said about it, the WotC are sure to make a necromancer and have already given hints that they probably will, since they held back on necromancer powers for the wizard to make room for a true necromancer. Though I agree that the shadowcaster should be a class or at least a build of one class, if not a build for the necromancer itself, for the shadow power source.
Undead, shadow, negative energy will generally equal shadow power source.
And the Death Master monster template is also shadow.
Undead, shadow, negative energy will generally equal shadow power source.
Very good point. The death master seems to give quite a bit of evidence that raising and controlling the undead would be an ability originating from the shadow power source.
I don´t imagine necromancer class like creator of undead minions. There isn´t minions nor sidesicks for PC in 4th ed. but a "deathlord" like leader of undeads does be possible.
WotC knows a necromancer class is wished, and they make us wait.
I don´t imagine shadow power for lawul good PCs. A character who uses negative energy can´t be good. A good necromancer heroe is possible for Diablo II, no for D&D.
If psionic and shadow will be in PH 3... who will buy PH4 with elemental and ki powers? (fans or Oriental adventures?).
Well WoTC is trying to get rid of alignment baggage. Warlocks can be any alignment now, as can Paladins, Barbarians, and Druids. I don't see any reason why that wouldn't hold true for a Necromancer. Besides the issue of whether negative energy was evil caused numerous fights. Just like anything having to do with alignments..
I don´t imagine shadow power for lawul good PCs. A character who uses negative energy can´t be good. A good necromancer heroe is possible for Diablo II, no for D&D.
Well if Negative Energy is evil, then using Positive Energy to cure an evil paladin responsible for the mass genocide of three races is a good thing, right?
What if I heal my good lich (Baelnorn) friend with Negative Energy so that they can keep fighting the bad guys?
If a minion is created or summoned you could bet some player will put it in the first position if there are tramps, or like "kamikaze"...with a great keg of gunpowder againt the final boss. (Do you remberber the petard of Age of Empires II: the conquerors?).
Let´s imagine there is a necromancer-like class with deathless ("good" undeads from book of exalted deed who are healed by positive energy).
If a minion is created or summoned you could bet some player will put it in the first position if there are tramps, or like "kamikaze"...with a great keg of gunpowder againt the final boss. (Do you remberber the petard of Age of Empires II: the conquerors?).
I would still root for the actual necromancer. He could be a good guy who uses otherwise useless bodies to help people out? lol.
Negative energy can be used in the same way as a sword or fire when it comes to battle. Just like a warlock uses his dark powers for good, if he so chooses. Dark heroes are just cool. That is why people liked black suit spiderman, haha. Bad example.