We have animate dead as a 9th level spell from an online module, necromancers as villians in the P2 adventure, but nothing that allows people to play necromancers???
As far as the wizard class is concerned, some people say it's fine. Some people say it's a joke. Me personally, I think if you are going to introduce some of the "schools" as wizard builds, then you should do them all - it would have made sense to do that in a book that is dedicated to arcane magic - oh wait, they made that.
Why wasn't it part of Arcane Power??? It would have been the perfect place for necromancers.
There are signs all over the forums about how much the developers love necromancy. Hell, it was even stated in one of their podcasts - yet we have nothing. Are you seriously going to make us wait 2 MORE YEARS for Player's Handbook 4???? ARE YOU SERIOUS???!!!!
I would sincerely hope that this is not the case. I understand that people after reading this post are going to sit back and probably flame me for stating my opinion. Fine, I don't care - I'm just sick and tired of playing characters that are not what I want to play - please release the necromancer.
It definitely won't be next year since since the Psionic power source is 2010.
edit:
Also as I recall there are some necromancy options in Dragon. Though probably nothing like what you are wanting.
I'd rather not have necromancy as a player option than have to wait while one player plays out the turns of his two dozen minions, like I did in 3.5.
They've got to come up with a way to make it feel like necromancy, and yet still be balanced and fun.
I'd rather not have necromancy as a player option than have to wait while one player plays out the turns of his two dozen minions, like I did in 3.5.
I don't think you have to worry about that. I suspect it'll be handled much like the Rangers animal companion.
Basically, you'll get 1 powerful undead servant and that's all. No more army of skeletons.
I don't think you have to worry about that. I suspect it'll be handled much like the Rangers animal companion.
Basically, you'll get 1 powerful undead servant and that's all. No more army of skeletons.
I doubt that this is going to satisfy many people.
I doubt that this is going to satisfy many people.
Well they can be disappointed. Balance is rather important in 4th ed unlike in previous editions.
If they do get more than 1 pet you can bet they'll only be able to command 1 pet per turn.
Heroic necromancer like spells would be mostly things like Fear or Drains like ray of enfeeblement. A Daily power "Disrupt" could be a simple ray attack that is highly effective only against undead, but does almost nothing to the living. (Or even absolutely nothing)
There could be a few all or AoE attacks, such as Grasping Hands, a spell that causes a bunch of zombie hands to burst from the ground grabbing anyone in the AoE as long as it lasts.
The necromancer paragon, gives you the Undead Minion. An incredibly powerful minion that could take the role of a striker or defender. Rather than dieing, it becomes disabled and can be resurrected by the necromancer.
Like a Grafting in 3.5's book of the dead, you can switch out pieces of it for different powers. (Feats are needed here.)
Heroic necromancer like spells would be mostly things like Fear or Drains like ray of enfeeblement. A Daily power "Disrupt" could be a simple ray attack that is highly effective only against undead, but does almost nothing to the living. (Or even absolutely nothing)
No one would ever take that power.
Well they can be disappointed. Balance is rather important in 4th ed unlike in previous editions.
If they do get more than 1 pet you can bet they'll only be able to command 1 pet per turn.
If this is the only viable route for necromancy - which I agree it probably is - then I think the better move would be to not release it as a PC option. It's a particularly weak, watered-down interpretation of the theme.
1) Summoner
2) Direct Damage
Both could be interesting interpretations of a striker.
Well, if we turn to Diablo 2 as a possible concept. You've got 2 concepts basically
1) Summoner
2) Direct Damage
Both could be interesting interpretations of a striker.
You could also go with drains, making them a faux-healer. So you could drain the enemy's health and give it to you/an ally, give up some of your own hp in order to get bonus to damage/attack rolls, take one ally's health and give it to another, or for a feat you could get a bonus to damage/attack for every undead/dead creature on the field.
There are tons of cool concepts you could explore. In fact, there's probably enough to make multiple classes based on 'shadow power'... Maybe a Necromancer for uber summoning and direct damage, a Shadow Knight for a tank or healer? (like a paladin but evil), and a Defiler for drains/enfeeblement to be a healer or controller?
That wouldn't realyl make sense. How can you have a swarm of medium size creatures? Just doesn't work with 4th ed mechanics.
Yes and no. Open Grave has a swarm for Medium or Large creatures, called a 'throng'. It's zombies in that book, but it could be easily adapted.
WotC also needs to remember that undead creation is only a small part of what necromancy can entail; if there is an undead sidekick, it needs to be one possible build, not an automatic presence.
- You bring things death
- You bring things back from death
- You keep things from death
- etc.
There's a lot more than just, "Look, Zombies!"
Yeah, Death magic means:
- You bring things death
- You bring things back from death
- You keep things from death
- etc.
There's a lot more than just, "Look, Zombies!"
Exactly. The Necromancer could be the Shadow Leader, since necromancy is life *and* death stuff ... which means healing powers.
I'm expecting them to come up with some new twists on the old pet mechanic, and as for minion swarms, that could be handled by damaging zones or something. Probably something.
I can imagine that the summoning rules would work well for raising the undead.
Yes, with a few possible differences.
There might be a way to disguise undead pets, or summon & dismiss them. While townsfolk may be able to tolerate a ranger's wolf or giant spider, having a skeleton or rotting ghoul trotting round is something else. Of course it could be ignored, and left to the DM to decide whether it actually matters.
There might not be a raise ritual - if the necromancer's pet is destroyed, he has to get another one.
In-combat summoning powers would probably work much the same as others, but might make use of existing corpses.
Another avenue I see necromancers possibly exploring is possession. Not domination, but fully possessing an enemy, like in the old magic jar spell. The foe could, while the possession lasts, be treated as their summoned pet.
In-combat summoning powers would probably work much the same as others, but might make use of existing corpses.
This.
Though it could be problematic when fighting one BBEG (though maybe that'd just be a strengths/weaknesses issue). However, what about C.O.U.S.'s......Corpses of Unusual Size??There are lots of really good ideas on this thread!
In addition or as an alternative to the horde thing, maybe the necromancer could have multiple creatures but still be restricted by using personal actions. That might be a good way to spread out control, i.e., a good parallel for "Target: One, two, or three creatures." Ex. The necromancer has four zombies around the battlefield. S/he can use a standard action to make one zombie attack, a move action to make another zombie restrain/grab a target, and a minor action to reposition a third zombie while the fourth just chills (perhaps able to threaten and flank?). (I don't know if there are already summons-type spells that let you do this with multiple creatures.)
No one would ever take that power.
I doubt it.
There is always a need to disrupt undead at times. Esspecially if the necromancer is released with a whole slew of undead things.. like a ravenloft expansion... Or is it ravenholm?
Either way its not an every day sort of power like magic missile, sure.
There's also a DDI article that gives half a dozen or so new Necromancy themed spells to many of the Arcane and Divine classes, including ones that create undead.
Maybe the Necromancer would be more like the Shaman than the Beastmaster, with the basic pet being a class feature and the conduit for attacks. Throw in dailies that modify the basic undead or even summon other helpers with instinctual actions. I could also see some conjuration similar to those the Cleric got.
Like a daily power that summons 3 or 4 Skeletons that can only make opportunity attacks and flank, they can be destroyed by inflicting a set ammount of damage and can all be moved by spending a single move action.
It'll probably be in the Shadow Power source which my guess will be in 2011.
It definitely won't be next year since since the Psionic power source is 2010.
edit:
Also as I recall there are some necromancy options in Dragon. Though probably nothing like what you are wanting.
He could be in the Arcane Power 2 book.
They probably will release 4+ power books a year. Since we have Martial Power 2 in March.
I doubt it.
There is always a need to disrupt undead at times. Esspecially if the necromancer is released with a whole slew of undead things.. like a ravenloft expansion... Or is it ravenholm?
Either way its not an every day sort of power like magic missile, sure.
Why would you take a power that only hurts undead when you have access to powers that hurt everything? Unless your DM is throwing a themed, undead-heavy game at you, the power is going to be useless over 95 percent of the time.
He could be in the Arcane Power 2 book.
They probably will release 4+ power books a year. Since we have Martial Power 2 in March.
The only way it would be in Arcane Power 2 is if it's an alternate Wizard build. However since Necromancer will most likely be a Shadow class then no, it wouldn't be in AP2 since there's no way any XP book would be use to introduce a power source.
Why would you take a power that only hurts undead when you have access to powers that hurt everything? Unless your DM is throwing a themed, undead-heavy game at you, the power is going to be useless over 95 percent of the time.
because i suspect if there is a release of the necromancer, there is also a release of some heavy undead themed campaigns.
And i suspect that it will hurt other things, unless you know, its like a cantrip?
So basically, no, you aren't going to get a Shadow power source class in Arcane Power 2, it'll come along with likely the PHB4, the PHB that most likely will introduce the Shadow power source.
Now yes, Assassin comes before it. However since that's a DDi exclusive it doesn't really count as the introduction to the Shadow power source. Also, it wouldn't make a lick of sense to include Necromancer in Arcane power if it's a Shadow class since Arcane power is a book for Arcane classes, not Shadow classes. Also, look in Martial Power and Arcane Power, neither of those books added new classes but rather new builds to existing classes. Basically, unless Necromancer becomes a new build to the Wizard then it's definitely not going to be in Arcane Power 2.
Also, while the idea that Necromancer is in the Shadow power source is just a theory, it's a theory that makes a whole lot of sense.
That being said, I don't think 4th edition is very "bad guy" friendly. It seems to push people towards playing heroes with the option of playing a neutral hero. But there are not many options to play the villain. So we may never get a necromancer build.
If any classes/races are DDI only, its going to upset a lot of people. Might give "ragequitting" a new name. Thankfully my focus is 3.5 and I only dabble in 4e.;)
If we do get a necromancer set up, I could see raising weak little minions, buffing them up and sending them off to kill, then turning them into walking bombs. "Go ahead and hurt my minion, I dare you." (explodes on contact)
Poison bombs or negative energy bombs would be fun.
I could also see necromancers using curses to steal life or add negative status affects to opponents. For every hp I steal from you, I gain 1 hp in return. Everytime you move, you take X damage. Everytime you deal damage, I gain X life.
4th edition is already MTG+wow rpg, might as well stick with it.:P
DDI material is pointless as more than half the people who play D&D4th probably don't even participate on this site let alone pay for something that should come with the books they buy. DDI is the single thing I hate most about 4th edition and plenty of people share my feelings on this.
That being said, I don't think 4th edition is very "bad guy" friendly. It seems to push people towards playing heroes with the option of playing a neutral hero. But there are not many options to play the villain. So we may never get a necromancer build.
If any classes/races are DDI only, its going to upset a lot of people. Might give "ragequitting" a new name. Thankfully my focus is 3.5 and I only dabble in 4e.;)
If we do get a necromancer set up, I could see raising weak little minions, buffing them up and sending them off to kill, then turning them into walking bombs. "Go ahead and hurt my minion, I dare you." (explodes on contact)
Poison bombs or negative energy bombs would be fun.
I could also see necromancers using curses to steal life or add negative status affects to opponents. For every hp I steal from you, I gain 1 hp in return. Everytime you move, you take X damage. Everytime you deal damage, I gain X life.
4th edition is already MTG+wow rpg, might as well stick with it.:P
IF MTG+wow is the 4e trend, then all is still not lost. Black Magic is fairly 'evil' in MTG and wow has the Forsaken you can play. I still see necromancer fitting into this game nicely.
Necromancers ARE arcane spellcasters. Just because its rumored that they have the shadow power source, i.e. their powers derive from something in the shadowfell, doesn't stop them from being ARCANE.
You simply cannot have it any other way - WoTC has already set the precident by making the other "schools of magic" wizard builds (summoning, illusion). It would be completely stupid for them to suddenly say "ok, we are going to have some of the schools go to the wizards and some break off into a separate and new category."
If you need convincing, I would suggest you go read P2 - it has necromancers in there with WIZARD spells, a.k.a. a wizard build. So, yes it is still entirely possible for necromancers to wind up in AP2.
You need to stop thinking that this is one of the previous editions.
Shadow has it's own power source now. So if the Necromancer is a Shadow power source class then no, it is NOT an Arcane class, it's a Shadow class.
And if DDI didn't exist you wouldn't find it in the same book as the rest of the stuff, be sure they would sell it to you in one way or another.
Necromancers ARE arcane spellcasters. Just because its rumored that they have the shadow power source, i.e. their powers derive from something in the shadowfell, doesn't stop them from being ARCANE.
You simply cannot have it any other way - WoTC has already set the precident by making the other "schools of magic" wizard builds (summoning, illusion). It would be completely stupid for them to suddenly say "ok, we are going to have some of the schools go to the wizards and some break off into a separate and new category."
If you need convincing, I would suggest you go read P2 - it has necromancers in there with WIZARD spells, a.k.a. a wizard build. So, yes it is still entirely possible for necromancers to wind up in AP2.
If you go to the unofficial compilation of all confirmed future releases thread, you'll find that WotC has been quoted that they will cut down on Necromancy spells for wizards in order to make room for a necromancer class. Granted, it was a while ago, but that barely changes anything, since they've only released like 4 necromantic wizard spells.
And if DDI didn't exist you wouldn't find it in the same book as the rest of the stuff, be sure they would sell it to you in one way or another.
This. WotC is a company. When they make content, you pay for it to use it. If it was in a book, you'd pay for it. DDI is no different. The only valid complaint I can really see is if you would have been pirating PDFs of the books anyways, and saying "*Blank* is a stupid business tactic because it keeps me from stealing from them" is hardly a valid complaint.
Why would you take a power that only hurts undead when you have access to powers that hurt everything? Unless your DM is throwing a themed, undead-heavy game at you, the power is going to be useless over 95 percent of the time.
It's possible that it would be something akin to the channel divinity powers of clerics. Perhaps just a built-in extra class power that scales to level or tier.
1) I think that the Necromancer will definitely be a Shadow class, and not an Arcane one. Most likely it will be a Controller with Leader-like qualities (i.e. "Lifetap" powers that drain HP from enemies and give it to allies), with plenty of powers which summon undead, or dominate enemies who are unconscious, and things of that nature. Hell, they might even have a "level drain" effect, if WotC can find a way to balance it.
2) I think that most likely the Necromancer will be in PHB4, as that's the most likely book to include Shadow classes. However, one very obvious possibility which I'm shocked that no one seems to have pointed out (though I may be wrong, since I only skimmed this) is that the Necromancer may very well be released as a Playtest long before the PHB4 is released in 2011. It's likely the Developers have been working on the Necromancer for quite a while, so maybe if we put some pressure on them they'll give us a playtest. :D
3) I think the undead "pet" is a viable idea, but really doesn't capture the flavor of the class. "I'm a beastmaster ranger, except with a Zombie Dog as my pet" doesn't really scream "Necromancer" to me. My personal take on it is this; You should have a power that lets you resurrect a number of medium humanoids who have been killed that encounter equal to the relevant ability modifier (probably either CHA or INT), and they become a certain type of undead (zombie, skeleton, etc) who follow your commands like Summon Creatures.
I think that you should be able to command one Zombie to move with a Minor Action, or all zombies to move with a Move Action, but only one Zombie should be able to attack per turn unless you spend an action point. Also, the summoner build should have special attacks that utilize your zombies as the origin of the power. This could either be a Class Feature that works something like Channel Divinity, or it could be worked into the effect of various Daily Powers for the summoner build.
4) I agree that no one in their right mind would chose, as their only power of a particular level, a power that only works on Undead. If that kind of power is included at all, the only logical course of action would be to provide it either as a free class feature, and/or simply to allow the power to do meager damage to living creatures and more significant damage to Undead. Perhaps a power that scales up its damage according to how little HP the enemy has remaining (with Undead being considered "negative HP")?
I don't think you have to worry about that. I suspect it'll be handled much like the Rangers animal companion.
Basically, you'll get 1 powerful undead servant and that's all. No more army of skeletons.
For an example of how to handle multiple undead servants, see the 25th level daily wizard power Summon Abyssal Horde in Arcane Power. This power gets a wizard three of a monster that he can summon one of at 5th level. He can make all of them act with one action, but they all have to take the same action. I could easily see that Animate Dead spell at 9th level being scaled up to 29th level the same way.
Also, I think Open Grave has a ritual that creates an undead servant (mainly for hauling stuff, not fighting). I remember our party's cleric of the Raven Queen threatening dire consequences if any of our party's other ritual casters ever made use of that ritual.
It's possible that it would be something akin to the channel divinity powers of clerics. Perhaps just a built-in extra class power that scales to level or tier.
True, if you make it a freebie, I suppose it's palatable.