But c'mon, a Neverwinter Campaign Setting?
I remember reading an article, I think it might've been a Rule of Three, a couple months back that said there were new campaign offerings in the works: both adaptations of older lines, like Dark Sun was, with one later this year and, if all went well, another next year. Excited I started wondering what they'd adapt or build on to make these campaign settings.
And then today I noticed the game day announcement. And what it was pushing.
We already have a campaign setting for Neverwinter. It's called Forgotten Realms, you may have heard of it. Well of course you've heard of it the blurb for the Neverwinter Camapign Setting itself mentions it... This book could have been a location supplement, heck a "Heroes of Neverwinter" idea would have worked, but instead it's labelled a full-on campaign. Likely because it's been said that they want to avoid specialized splatbooks and this is a sort of loophole; overdevelop an area which featured in a bunch of the novels, add in more details and specialized feats and builds, and sell it as a full campaign.
Gloomwrought would have been an easier sell as a campaign setting.
With all of the potential worlds from the past to use, and all of the potential future content that could be developed and created, a sub-section of an existing campaign world was chosen. Again, I'm sorry, but it just smacks of laziness, of a need to do as much tie-in with the popular novels as possible. And a bit of what bothers me the most about this is that the last campaign offering, Dark Sun, was a good piece of work offering something new, varied and interesting to the game while still being tied to the game's roots. Even the newer books, Heroes of Shadow and the Essentials line, seemed to speak of a kind of fresh start in mechanics while finally detailing those parts of the game and cosmos which had next to nothing about them. Or at the very least explaining it all in a clear fashion.
TLDR: really disappointed that Neverwinter is a campaign setting when it already existed and there were so many other options and possibilities.
Gloomwrought would have been an easier sell as a campaign setting.
Uhh... Well, they did pretty much 'sell' Gloomwrought as that. Both the Neverwinter book and the main book in the Gloomwrought box are titled 'Campaign Guide' (i.e. those two books are meant to be comparable resources within their respective 'settings'). So, why complain about one and not the other? There's nothing intrinsically wrong with products that provide more detail about specific parts of existing settings. You're right that the 'campaign setting' for the Neverwinter book is 'Forgotten Realms', just as the 'campaign setting' for the Gloomwrought book is PoLand/Nentir Vale/Fallen Nerath (whetever you choose to call the core 'default' 4e setting). But neither book claims to be a completely self-contained 'Campaign Setting'. Both books say 'Campaign Guide' on their covers.
The book is pretty much set up so you can run a fully-fledged heroic tier campaign within the city. I'm sure it also goes into the surrounding areas of Neverwinter, such as the Neverwinter Wood, Mount Hotenow, and possibly Port Llast, Luskan, and the areas covered in the video games. And frankly, they'd be stupid NOT to tie in a campaign guide with the other releases of a Neverwinter-based Drizzt novel AND the 3rd installment of the video game franchise.
In addition to all of that, it's also the source where they're going to release the new Bladesinger class. This, I think, will help intice others not comfortable with the Forgotten Realms to still pick up the book for that reason alone plus placing the city of Neverwinter into any campaign setting they see fit.
As for the potential use of old worlds...like what? Dragonlance? Sorry but I think that boat has sailed for the final trip during the War of Souls trilogy. I've read DL for a long, long, time and even I couldn't get into it as a sustained novel line nor as a D&D Campaign Setting. Since I have practically no information on Planescape (or the one that dealt with the the City of Sigil) I can't really comment on it, but I think they touched on this area with the 4E Manual of the Planes book right?
TLDR: really disappointed that Neverwinter is a campaign setting when it already existed and there were so many other options and possibilities.
Agreed. No one at our table is talking about this book and certainly no one plans to buy it. If it had been a PoL book (or boxed set), I think some of us would have bought it. Our group might be an outlier though because no one plays Living Forgotten Realms, which may be the target demographic. Video game & novel tie-ins make sense as well, I suppose.
We'll have to see how well this book sells to pass final judgement, but I'm still waiting to buy a single 2011 release.
I mean, don't get me wrong, i acknowledge that it's brilliant marketing on Wizard's behalf, what with the upcoming games from Atari. Of course, any real success depends on Atari and Cryptic not releasing a crappy game, and.....well, not much hope there. I'm thinking that the Facebook Heroes of Neverwinter may see more success than the Neverwinter MMO.
But, as others have said, Neverwinter is in the Forgettable Realms, and thus, is already covered. Now, if they were to expand that and offer some expansions for all the other campaign settings, I'd be completely cool with it! Unfortunately, so far that does not seem to be the case.
There are SO freaking many books and boxed sets for specific areas in 2E and 3E. So, you know, this may be actually responding to customer feedback.
I also may be jumping the gun on things regarding Neverwinter being the "campaign"; reading Rule of Three 6/13/2011: "We’ll be touching on a semi-obscure but flavorful setting this fall, and depending on how that goes we’ll look at extending that to a better known one." Additionally it's noted that this will happen in Dragon and Dungeon, so yes no actual campaign setting this year it seems.
Ravenloft being cancelled and instead made into a board game as well as Heroes of Shadow and Gloomwrought is a different issue so I'm not really going to discuss it...
I'm not denying that it's good marketing, I just question if it's good design or really something the game needs. There are *many* settings to consider (among them Planescape, which did get a brief almost-treatment in Manual of the Planes, Spelljammer, Al-Qadim, Ravenloft itself though that seems to have died, Mystara mostly for Hollow World -- to name a few with elements that are not represented much in 4e). Heck, while we're talking about sub-settings in FR there's the nearly undeveloped areas of Maztica and Kara-Tur, each of which would offer plenty of new content and ideas for campaigns as a similar sub-setting doesn't really exist in 4e.
And as for including Bladesinger I think it's pretty telling when a single class being in the book is the tipping point on the buy/not buy scale. That said it's kinda irrelevant with DDI and the CB available -- why buy a book for a class when all of its resources are already covered by your subscription?
And I do have to say that if this was actually the start of a pattern of expanding on the dark corners of many settings I'd feel slightly more okay with it, but I don't think that's going to happen for the simple reason that all of the marketing tie-ins don't exist for those settings and regions. Plus that's really what the relevant articles in Dungeon are for, so a full book on a region seems expensive and needless.
Heck, while we're talking about sub-settings in FR there's the nearly undeveloped areas of Maztica and Kara-Tur, each of which would offer plenty of new content and ideas for campaigns as a similar sub-setting doesn't really exist in 4e.
Except Maztica got exchanged with the whole nation of Returned Abeir, so that'd pretty much rule out that area of the Realms. But I agree with you that there are other, less-explored, areas of Faerûn that could use some additional covering. I have a great interest with the campaign guide as my group has been embarking on re-taking the city, something our group has been doing on since before news of the Neverwinter Campaign Guide was released, so I'm really excited to see what direction they went with and how bad the city actually is. Plus the maps will be a great boon to my campaign as well.
And as for including Bladesinger I think it's pretty telling when a single class being in the book is the tipping point on the buy/not buy scale. That said it's kinda irrelevant with DDI and the CB available -- why buy a book for a class when all of its resources are already covered by your subscription?
Yes and no. I say yes because I use the CB quite alot and find it extreamly useful but on the other hand, I like having paper-backed books to reference when I'm not at my computer or if the server goes down or if I'm using the book at someone else's house. I also enjoy Errata free material and only use it on a case-by-case basis. If something I really like from the Bladesinger get's nerfed or changed drastically, I just won't use it because I'll have the original class in paper. So to me, those are good qualities to have in a campaign guide.
And I do have to say that if this was actually the start of a pattern of expanding on the dark corners of many settings I'd feel slightly more okay with it, but I don't think that's going to happen for the simple reason that all of the marketing tie-ins don't exist for those settings and regions. Plus that's really what the relevant articles in Dungeon are for, so a full book on a region seems expensive and needless.
Well hopefully if sales of this supplement do really well, WotC will invest in other areas of their campaign settings and showcase other intriguing regions. I'm sure Eberron and Dark Sun both have greatly detailed or fan-favorites they'd love to see made into supplements. This might just be the first step in that process.
I mean, there are so many interesting places. I wish they'd have put it up for a vote, I know how mine would go:
1. Planescape 4e
2. Spelljammer 4e
3. Nentir Vale (full setting)
4. Mystara 4e
5. Rokugan 4e
262,144. Neverwinter
I'm betting the only reason this Campaign Setting is happening is because of the other tie in material that is releasing. I can't blame them for a money grab, but they shouldn't bump another campaign setting for this Location Expansion Supplement.
Im really seeing the release of this book as a good thing, of course I am a Realms fan so I might be slightly biased, but it may open the doors for other settings as well.
2008: Forgotten Realms
2009: Eberron
2010: Dark Sun
2011: FR-Neverwinter
2012: Eb-Sharn (?)
2013: DS-Tyr (?)
a possibility...
2012: Eb-Sharn (?)
Sharn: City of Towers was released in 3.5. I still use it, though, as it has wonderful fluff that is system-neutral.
> "campaign"; reading Rule of Three 6/13/2011: "We’ll be touching on a
> semi-obscure but flavorful setting this fall, and depending on how that goes
> we’ll look at extending that to a better known one." Additionally it's noted
> that this will happen in Dragon and Dungeon, so yes no actual campaign setting
> this year it seems.
I can't help but think "Hollow World?" when I read that, although it's probably more than semi-obscure. It would qualify as flavorful and extensible though, and probably offers more design space (rules-wise as well as theme-wise) than retreading most of the other ones.
a possibility...
2012: Eb-Sharn (?)
Sharn: City of Towers was released in 3.5. I still use it, though, as it has wonderful fluff that is system-neutral.
Yeah, the issue with Eberron material is that most of it got released very recently (during 3.5) and is still largely valid for 4e since there weren't any drastic changes, from a fluff/background material standpoint (mainly, only incorporating homelands for the races that got promoted to primary-race-status in 4e). And you can still find some (many?) of those books available online, often in new condition.
Contrast that with how the Forgotten Realms got merged with its sister-world, had the Spellplague sweep through, and its timeline advanced a hundred years, so from the recycling-old-material-standpoint it's easier to explain/justify releasing a "campaign guide" to expand on the current situation in the Realms.
That said, I would love to see a book for Eberron that included a wide swath of Eberron-specific Themes for characters. I'm just not sure what other material it could have that hasn't already been covered in existing books.
Our group might be an outlier though because no one plays Living Forgotten Realms, which may be the target demographic.
The target demographic would be the huge number of D&D players that adventure in the Realms.
FR is by far the most popular D&D setting and is used by a lot of people.Also, a few other points from other posts: WotC has Essentially abandoned the setting per year model. (heh, see what I did?) When they went in their new direction with Essentials that died a whimpering death. Instead we're getting campaign guides on how to run a campaign within a set location of existing settings (Gloomwrought, Neverwinter, etc.).
Ravenloft was never goign to be a yearly campaign setting. 1) it's already part of the Shadowfell, so it's part of the 4e cosmology regardless of setting (same with Planescape and Spelljammer) so it would never have been it's own setting. 2) It was going to be a standalone boxed game a la Gamma World (in addition to the board game). It's possible it may have included info on how to utlize its scenarios in an actual D&D game, but it's a far cry from being a "camaign setting."
Also, and this is my speculation, Neverwinter was always intended to be expanded upon at a later date. Obviously they had plans for the Video Game and books much earlier due to production times. Neverwinter had a single sentence mention in the campaign guide whih threw the FR fans into a tizzy. (It's in ruin? Why? What happened? Is (insert NPC here) still alive? etc.) So it seems to me less of a mea culpa on WotCs part and more of a long term project that was planned for some time.
On the otherhand, if you look at it as a sub setting its a great place for them to start. Yes clearly its a marketing tool, they market this book for the same reason they market the game and the novels... becasue people like and know this city. I wouldn't want a game or a book in a place I don't know, so market on WotC.
And as far as the book goes Ill love and buy it on one condition, that I can port this city to my home brew.
If I can port it to my homebrew then it is simply a great looking city supliment.
I think the issue is how it was presented to you, not what it is.
Unfortunately we might get a map of the city and a little 20 page booklet on what's going on in this area (haven't really looked at the contents). Dissapointment after disapointment...
c'mon, a Neverwinter Campaign Setting?
I'm just happy that they are continuing are supporting an existing, popular setting rather than creating Yet Another Unneeded Setting (*cough* Nentir Vale).
Thanks to LFR, lots of players and DM's are using the Realms, so further support markets to a large customer base. I prefer that sort of focus rather than the scatter-gun approach.
Still, I'd like to eventually see the other planes obtain that level of (extreme) detail, especially since they can be used with almost any setting.
Gloomwrought would have been an easier sell as a campaign setting.
Uhh... Well, they did pretty much 'sell' Gloomwrought as that. Both the Neverwinter book and the main book in the Gloomwrought box are titled 'Campaign Guide' (i.e. those two books are meant to be comparable resources within their respective 'settings'). So, why complain about one and not the other? There's nothing intrinsically wrong with products that provide more detail about specific parts of existing settings. You're right that the 'campaign setting' for the Neverwinter book is 'Forgotten Realms', just as the 'campaign setting' for the Gloomwrought book is PoLand/Nentir Vale/Fallen Nerath (whetever you choose to call the core 'default' 4e setting). But neither book claims to be a completely self-contained 'Campaign Setting'. Both books say 'Campaign Guide' on their covers.
Well, I'm thinking he is referring to how a new campaign setting has been released every year since 4th's release. 2008- Forgotten Realms. 2009- Eberron. 2010- Dark Sun. This is a year where instead of a new setting, like Dragonlance or Planescape, they have released, as you said, a supplement of an already existing Camapign setting for 4th. I can see where he is coming from (although I am looking forward to this release). My guess is that Neverwinter is being released, as someone said above, because of the video game coming out.
So technically the thread poster is correct. No new Camapign setting for 2011- as far as a new setting. Gloomwrought falls into to the category of Underdark or Plane Above books. Neverwinter falls into Ebberon and Dark Sun.
That said- this book appears wicked cool and I am curious to see how they pull off the open storyline design, concept thingy.
I could understand if they were to include 20+ battle maps that covered the entire area from edge to edge. Along with stats on every person living in it. Detailed info on each group that lives there and what their goals are as well as stats on their rank and file and elite and leaders. I mean a comprehensive mapping of every cave, dungeon, city, and everything else would be awesome.
Unfortunately we might get a map of the city and a little 20 page booklet on what's going on in this area (haven't really looked at the contents). Dissapointment after disapointment...
I was hoping they would include a miniature hand crafter and painted for all creatures, people and plants in the city, as well as the maps you mentioned but we would need 160+ because I would like to see night and day, in all 4 seasons, and if they could throw in a couple extra sets of the city maps with damaged buildings in case my pcs deside to have battles within the city. So maybe 320+ double sided poster maps and at lease 1000 minis, and the book should be at lease 500 pages with everything that could ever happen detailed with skill and combat encounters. Also if Chris Perkins could just crawl into the box and help me run my home game Id be down for that.
But Id settle for the Narnia Wardrobe that transports me and my players to a fantacy world while time stops in our real lives, I guess... but they better keep it under $20.
I could understand if they were to include 20+ battle maps that covered the entire area from edge to edge. Along with stats on every person living in it. Detailed info on each group that lives there and what their goals are as well as stats on their rank and file and elite and leaders. I mean a comprehensive mapping of every cave, dungeon, city, and everything else would be awesome.
Unfortunately we might get a map of the city and a little 20 page booklet on what's going on in this area (haven't really looked at the contents). Dissapointment after disapointment...
I was hoping they would include a miniature hand crafter and painted for all creatures, people and plants in the city, as well as the maps you mentioned but we would need 160+ because I would like to see night and day, in all 4 seasons, and if they could throw in a couple extra sets of the city maps with damaged buildings in case my pcs deside to have battles within the city. So maybe 320+ double sided poster maps and at lease 1000 minis, and the book should be at lease 500 pages with everything that could ever happen detailed with skill and combat encounters. Also if Chris Perkins could just crawl into the box and help me run my home game Id be down for that.
But Id settle for the Narnia Wardrobe that transports me and my players to a fantacy world while time stops in our real lives, I guess... but they better keep it under $20.
Wait... there's a point in there somewhere... oh, you're trying to say that what I wanted was ridiculous? ok... sure... but then so is this product.
How bout a more realistic look. A map of every town, important dungeon, and common nature locale (like one side for a snowy plain, another for a snowy forest), a large overland map that shows the entire region and a decent sized book 200+ pages describing every faction involved and stats for the most common monsters + special leaders of factions...
what it should of said was:
Neverwinter: A FR setting or something
I dont think they should of called it a campaign setting since its in hte FR.
what it should of said was:
Neverwinter: A FR setting or something
the product catalog says setting but on the cover of the book it actually says "Neverwinter campaign guide"
I dont think they should of called it a campaign setting since its in hte FR.
what it should of said was:
Neverwinter: A FR setting or something
the product catalog says setting but on the cover of the book it actually says "Neverwinter campaign guide"
Since he's ignored the fact that both myself and Diffan have already pointed that out, what makes you think he'll pay any attention to you?
This may be an experiment to see if they can bring back the 2E and 3E days of setting-specific supplements, or if the people crying out for their return aren't as interested in them as they've claimed.
There are SO freaking many books and boxed sets for specific areas in 2E and 3E. So, you know, this may be actually responding to customer feedback.
Yep, and some of us loved that there were so freaking many sourcebooks for Forgotten Realms. I hope this is testing the waters to jettison the idiotic "two generic books, one bad module" policy for campaign settings, but more likely we're only seeing this thanks to the book and videogame tie-ins.
they keep doing it too
its just heroic tier so its not really a campaign setting. more like a tier setting. im skipping it
That is actually one of the reasons im buying it, after regretting buying the Shadowfell supplement, and swearing to stop buying rpg products for a while.
its just heroic tier so its not really a campaign setting. more like a tier setting. im skipping it
I can't imagine not buying a release from Wizards. If anything, it will be a great throne reader (Essentials fills this role perfectly; it has in a pinch worked well as TP). I hate themes but they are interesting to read. No, passing on this, it would be missing on a new campaign design method that Wizards is enacting.
its just heroic tier so its not really a campaign setting. more like a tier setting. im skipping it
I can't imagine not buying a release from Wizards. If anything, it will be a great throne reader (Essentials fills this role perfectly; it has in a pinch worked well as TP). I hate themes but they are interesting to read. No, passing on this, it would be missing on a new campaign design method that Wizards is enacting.
Every other page is fluff, so of course its like complementary TP...
I agree, this isn't a real campaign setting by any stretch. No one at my game store really ever mentions it other than to point out how stupid we think it is. The only time it's mentioned in a positive manner by anyone is in relation to the upcoming game day, and only because we haven't had any actually sanctioned D&D content in months at that store, so we're all pretty excited for it.
Fair enough about Gloomwrought and Neverwinter being Campaign Guides
Actually no, it's not. Both the Forgotten Realms and Eberron campaing books are Campaign Guides. The only 4e campaign book I've seen that's actually using "Campaign Setting" as the book title is the one for Dark Sun, and I'm willing to bet that's because they had merged the Campaign Guide and Player's Guide into a single volume for that setting rather than anything else.
Neverwinter and Gloomwrought are nothing more than super supplements of pre-existing 4e campaign settings. For Wizards to market them as actual stand-alone settings is nothing but false advertising, pure and simple.
I hate themes but they are interesting to read.
I, on the other hand, love themes. One of the best additions to the game since its inception in terms of mechanical structures. Heroic tier has some problems, and the two biggest are not having enough encounter attacks to keep combat interesting and not having enough character-defining options available to personalize your character. Many of the characters I've played were only fun to play once they got their second or third encounter power, and only felt alive once they got their paragon path, and themes help significantly on both of these fronts.
Some of the themes themselves have been lackluster, but the concept and the mechanical structure are great.
Still won't be enough to salvage this book for me, though. Heroic tier only? Realms again? And that bladesinger mess? Yeah, no thank you.