According to the advance information, Heroes of the Fallen Lands will contain new builds for the fighter, cleric, rogue, wizard, and ranger, while Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms will contain new builds for the cleric, ranger, druid, paladin, and warlock. My understanding is that these will be new builds for everyone, not just with respect to the information in the new Red Box.
So, what design space are they intending these new builds to fill? I can think of one particular build possibility for the cleric that I'd like to see (which everyone is sick of hearing me talk about). On the other hand, there are now (as of Martial Power 2) five builds each for fighters, rogues, and rangers; what hasn't been covered there? There are also five pacts for warlocks, although it's not too hard to imagine other possibilities. Druid and paladin--any unused concepts here?
Thoughts?
That means it'll be the seventh fighter build.
Another Dex-type Druid would be useful (currently we have 3 Con-type builds – Summons basically require Constitution, and while Predators running with their packs is a cool idea, the Summoner works better with a Guardian Build that stays back).
Rangers will be getting two new builds (one in each expansion to the Red Box). Right now, I can see a build that requires the Ranger to have a hand free, and what about a Scout-like Ranger that focuses on Shortbows, as opposed to the much preferred Longbows or Greatbows?
Plenty of room for new Cleric concepts. Right now, we've got a Melee Cleric, a Laser Cleric, and a Medic Cleric. We could possibly have a Cleric that focuses on Abjurations (absorbing the Abjuror Wizard, which was always a Leader concept anyways). There's also the possibility to move into new riders. An Archivist Cleric would be more intellectual, and focus on scriptual teachings. Works better for them than for Invokers, who forgo the organisation for a direct relationship with their deity. Have to see about Runepriest, though – no Intelligence yet, but there might be future builds that do something to that effect. It would be cool if the Archival Cleric could use a Tome instead of a Holy Symbol as an implement.
We could have a Paladin that focuses on movement, a sort of Holy Crusader or Missionary that moves in and out of combat, rather than being the slow meatshield he is.
Rogues could always use a Wis-type build that focuses on Perception and Insight. It might also be a chance to expand out the Duellist Rogue from Dragon.
I see many new pacts for Warlocks – Genie Pact (with Efreets or Djinn), Marut Pact, Dread Pact (with a Darklord of a Domain of Dread of the Shadowfell), Dragon Pact. We're getting the Sorcerer-King Pact in Dark Sun, by the way.
I don't know what your Cleric build is. What is it?
Another Dex-type Druid would be useful (currently we have 3 Con-type builds – Summons basically require Constitution, and while Predators running with their packs is a cool idea, the Summoner works better with a Guardian Build that stays back).
I disagree that Con is necessary for Summoner Druids. The difference between Con-based and Dex-based Druids will be most pronounced at level 1 when there's a 4-6 HP difference (which is a 2-3 HP difference for the summoned creature itself). As you level, those hit points mean less and less since your total becomes so high. Predators are somewhat limited in terms of healing surges, but that's not always an issue with summons. Usually you can dismiss them as they get low on HP, saving you from spending a surge, and even when they are killed they've still soaked up 2+ surges worth of damage for the price of one healing surge. IMO they're actually a better deal for Predators because Con Druids won't necessarily need to conserve HP resources as much. Also, Predators are most likely to boost their melee damage, which in turn boosts the damage of the summons (which are already very striker-focused in general). Personally, I think Swarm Druids make the worst summoners because they have so many party unfriendly AoE's which can potentially hit the summon, which is just a waste.
That said, I think there's definitely room for new Druid builds. In 3rd edition Druids eventually gained the ability to use Wild Shape to assume an Elemental form, so a build that focused on Wild Shaping into an Elemental would be appropriate. It would be a build that could easily take advantage of elemental feats that Druids currently aren't that great with (i.e. Frostcheese). I would also imagine that it would be more of a pure controller build even in beast form, unlike the Predator (which leans striker) or Swarm (which leans defender). Specifically, instead of being really mobile or really tough, it would have a class feature that directly increased control potential (like the Wizard's Implement Mastery). Something similar to the Genasi racial powers would also be cool, but I'd prefer that instead of picking one that you could choose between some number of them, while still being limited to 1/enc (like the Wilden's racial powers).
I could also see a "spirit form" build being viable. You could get limited access to phasing and/or insubstantial, and it could be focused on de-buffs.
Another Dex-type Druid would be useful (currently we have 3 Con-type builds – Summons basically require Constitution, and while Predators running with their packs is a cool idea, the Summoner works better with a Guardian Build that stays back).
I disagree that Con is necessary for Summoner Druids. The difference between Con-based and Dex-based Druids will be most pronounced at level 1 when there's a 4-6 HP difference (which is a 2-3 HP difference for the summoned creature itself). As you level, those hit points mean less and less since your total becomes so high. Predators are somewhat limited in terms of healing surges, but that's not always an issue with summons. Usually you can dismiss them as they get low on HP, saving you from spending a surge, and even when they are killed they've still soaked up 2+ surges worth of damage for the price of one healing surge. IMO they're actually a better deal for Predators because Con Druids won't necessarily need to conserve HP resources as much. Also, Predators are most likely to boost their melee damage, which in turn boosts the damage of the summons (which are already very striker-focused in general). Personally, I think Swarm Druids make the worst summoners because they have so many party unfriendly AoE's which can potentially hit the summon, which is just a waste.
That said, I think there's definitely room for new Druid builds. In 3rd edition Druids eventually gained the ability to use Wild Shape to assume an Elemental form, so a build that focused on Wild Shaping into an Elemental would be appropriate. It would be a build that could easily take advantage of elemental feats that Druids currently aren't that great with (i.e. Frostcheese). I would also imagine that it would be more of a pure controller build even in beast form, unlike the Predator (which leans striker) or Swarm (which leans defender). Specifically, instead of being really mobile or really tough, it would have a class feature that directly increased control potential (like the Wizard's Implement Mastery). Something similar to the Genasi racial powers would also be cool, but I'd prefer that instead of picking one that you could choose between some number of them, while still being limited to 1/enc (like the Wilden's racial powers).
I could also see a "spirit form" build being viable. You could get limited access to phasing and/or insubstantial, and it could be focused on de-buffs.
How would those tie into the Primal Beast lore we have about Druids though? If you're not turning into some animal form, then you're not connected with the Primal Beast.
However, my logic breaks down with a particular form of the swarm druid: the swarm druid who takes on the form of a storm of leaves. It's depicted in art (Whirling Samsara, I believe), and mentioned in the text for Swarm Druids as a possibility, which raises a lot of ideas for Wilden in particular (Who'd also like the Wis/Con of Swarm Druids, and have a sort of hive-mind to begin with).
For that matter, what about taking it a step further, and turning into Trees?
@Salla, you can always not take up the wild shape powers, but then it is a core Druid's schtick. A druid without wildshape, would be shaman or warden perhaps?
Nice thread as I was curious about the new builds as well. I think the builds will be thematic to the titles of the books, unless they do introduce theme mechanics already. Builds are one of my favourite features of 4e, it differentiates a concept without having to make a new class. I still like the basic builds featured in the PHBs though.
@Salla, you can always not take up the wild shape powers, but then it is a core Druid's schtick. A druid without wildshape, would be shaman or warden perhaps?
No, it'd just be a druid who stands back and does a lot of casting and doesn't turn into an animal.
That said, I think there's definitely room for new Druid builds. In 3rd edition Druids eventually gained the ability to use Wild Shape to assume an Elemental form, so a build that focused on Wild Shaping into an Elemental would be appropriate. It would be a build that could easily take advantage of elemental feats that Druids currently aren't that great with (i.e. Frostcheese). I would also imagine that it would be more of a pure controller build even in beast form, unlike the Predator (which leans striker) or Swarm (which leans defender). Specifically, instead of being really mobile or really tough, it would have a class feature that directly increased control potential (like the Wizard's Implement Mastery). Something similar to the Genasi racial powers would also be cool, but I'd prefer that instead of picking one that you could choose between some number of them, while still being limited to 1/enc (like the Wilden's racial powers).
I think this would work better as a elemental power, rather then primal.
Nice thread as I was curious about the new builds as well. I think the builds will be thematic to the titles of the books, unless they do introduce theme mechanics already. Builds are one of my favourite features of 4e, it differentiates a concept without having to make a new class. I still like the basic builds featured in the PHBs though.
@Salla, you can always not take up the wild shape powers, but then it is a core Druid's schtick. A druid without wildshape, would be shaman or warden perhaps?
No, it'd just be a druid who stands back and does a lot of casting and doesn't turn into an animal.
And would be a Guardian Druid. Maybe you could have a Dex non-wildshaping build?
However, my logic breaks down with a particular form of the swarm druid: the swarm druid who takes on the form of a storm of leaves.
The Primal Beast is part-hibiscus on his mother's side.
Something I'd like to see?
Mounted Builds. Paladin on a celestial steed. Fighter on a heavily armored horse. Ranger riding a swift charger or peppering the enemy through horse archery. We've already touched on this idea with the griffin-mounted paragon path, but it is such a common trope that it deserves a full set of abilities.
Abdjurer cleric would be nice, with a focus on wards, barriers, walls, and nifty zone effects. Druids might have quite a bit of fun if they gave up Wild Shape for an Animal Companion who could use Beast Form powers, and they revived the old animal-targeting spells to let the druid transform the companion. If they wanted to keep Wild Shape, though, the Turn-Into-Trees idea is quite a good one; let the druid literally turn into terrain, shaping the battlefield through his own form.
Will the builds be more complicated than the ones we have from PHB1? I am thinking from a newbie standpoint here as I feel the builds from PHB1 is newbie friendly.
Hence why some of those builds will be in the Red Box, most likely.
I'm seeing Devoted Cleric, Guardian Fighter, Trickster Rogue, and War Wizard (either Staff or Wand, but not both) as the chosen builds for the Red Box. Note that they'll only go to 2nd Level, though, so we'll probably see those builds reprinted with a new build for each, as well as a new Ranger build, in the first Essentials expansion.
So I imagine that any builds that ARE presented in the red box will be supported in the player essentials books. I guess it's always possible for the following scenario to take place:
Red box contains 2 builds for rogue (artful dodger and brutal scoundrel) and powers up to level 2.
Essentials book contains 2 more builds for rogue and powers for ALL 4 builds up to level 30.
I guess it's not entirely inconceivable for there to be 4+ encounter powers at every level. After all, these essentials books are fairly lengthy and only cover 5 classes each.
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Regarding my particular area of interest...
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Plenty of room for new Cleric concepts. Right now, we've got a Melee Cleric, a Laser Cleric, and a Medic Cleric. We could possibly have a Cleric that focuses on Abjurations (absorbing the Abjuror Wizard, which was always a Leader concept anyways). There's also the possibility to move into new riders. An Archivist Cleric would be more intellectual, and focus on scriptual teachings. Works better for them than for Invokers, who forgo the organisation for a direct relationship with their deity. Have to see about Runepriest, though – no Intelligence yet, but there might be future builds that do something to that effect. It would be cool if the Archival Cleric could use a Tome instead of a Holy Symbol as an implement.
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I don't know what your Cleric build is. What is it?
It's actually an Archivist/Cloistered Cleric-type build, as you alluded to above. I've written it up and would like to pitch it to Dragon in the next few days. In a nutshell, it's an Int-secondary cleric that trades off a bunch of armor proficiencies for a number of assorted benefits, and gives up Channel Divinity for a modified spellbook. We'll see if they like it.
I really like the Archivist idea, but I think that giving up Channel Divinity might be a hard sell. AFAIK, all divine builds so far have channel divinity!
I really like the Archivist idea, but I think that giving up Channel Divinity might be a hard sell. AFAIK, all divine builds so far have channel divinity!
I wouldn't give up Channel Divinity. I'd trade the Channel Divinity power though for a different one, though.
Cleric builds need to be done around powers.
I would, however, give a feature much like Archer Warlord that trades out the use of chainmail and holy symbols to use tome implements. Maybe not the chainmail; might seem too much of a tax for Tomes.
However, the powers could key into "If you're using a tome as an implement, then y."
I really like the Archivist idea, but I think that giving up Channel Divinity might be a hard sell. AFAIK, all divine builds so far have channel divinity!
I wouldn't give up Channel Divinity. I'd trade the Channel Divinity power though for a different one, though.
Cleric builds need to be done around powers.
I actually did contemplate this trade for a long time, and ended up thinking it might be okay since (AFAIK) the Runepriest doesn't get a Channel Divinity power either. On the other hand, that removal might be too radical a departure for a cleric build, and the modified spellbook I came up with might be a bit too fiddly anyway.
Now that you mention it, though, I have to thank you both for a burst of inspiration. I've been trying to work out some new powers for this build, and it now occurs to me (after reading your comments) that they would probably work better as Channel Divinity powers anyway.
The article was going to need some revising anyway. I think this may actually work much better than my original idea.
I would, however, give a feature much like Archer Warlord that trades out the use of chainmail and holy symbols to use tome implements. Maybe not the chainmail; might seem too much of a tax for Tomes.
However, the powers could key into "If you're using a tome as an implement, then y."
My proposed build actually removes a lot of armor proficiencies, in exchange for an Int-based AC bonus, access to staffs and tomes as implements, the ability to substitute Int for Cha when determining the effects of cleric powers, and an extra trained knowledge-type skill. If you like, I can post the revised version once I've finished, well, revising it.