What're people hoping to see? I'd like to see the return of the Assassin or possibly Shadow Dancer.
Assassin is being released as a DDI only bonus class in the shadow power source - I don't know anything about a shadow dancer release.
The Assasin will be a DDI exclusive class of the Shadow source. Comes out in September.
That's all we know so far.
Psionic
Monk (confirmed)
Psion (confirmed)
Psychic Warrior
Primal
Witch Doctor
Divine
Favored Soul
My guesses:
Psionic
Monk (confirmed)
Psion (confirmed)
Psychic Warrior
Primal
Witch Doctor
Divine
Favored Soul
I don't know if this is still a policy they hold to, but I recall reading that no class will have more than one word in its name, so Psychic Warrior, Witch Doctor, and Favored Soul may be out.
Favored Soul, btw, has been previewed as a Paragon Path, so it definitely won't be a class one way or the other.
Player's Handbook 3 has been confirmed as being Divine, Primal and Psionic heroes.
I was firmly hoping that with 4 classes and a *-Power book each particular Power Source would be done with. If this is true, I might be irritated since I found the sense of order that I perceived until now quite appealing.
- Elemental
- Ki
- Primal
- Psionic
- Shadow
Shadow we know will include the Assassin, so I doubt it'll be scrapped like Ki seems to have been (They said themselves that they couldn't really include more than the monk in the power source, and now he's psionic.
Elemental seems unlikely, seeing as how Arcane already seems to have all of that business covered.
Ki is gone, apparently. *shrug*
Psionic we know will be in the Player's Handbook 3, and I'd expect 4+ classes.
As for Primal, we've already seen a great deal of that, but it's not like there isn't more to be worked with. There's already 6 arcane classes, so more than 4 per power source can definitely be done.
And someone else already said it would be Psionic, Divine, and Primal. I don't know about verification on that statement, but it seems to make the most sense (Since arcane already has 6, and martial doesn't really have any options left IMO)..
I would like to see a necromancer type class in PHB3, but I don't know how they would do the undead controlling/summoning.
The same way wizards and druids do their summoning now, probably.
I was firmly hoping that with 4 classes and a *-Power book each particular Power Source would be done with. If this is true, I might be irritated since I found the sense of order that I perceived until now quite appealing.
So, I'm guessing you don't know that Martial Power 2 and Arcane Power 2 are already scheduled for next year then?
And Arcane already breaks the 4 classes idea. Shadow is pretty much guaranteed to have 5 classes now. So Divine and Primal getting 5th & maybe 6th classes aren't a big deal.
Elemental seems unlikely, seeing as how Arcane already seems to have all of that business covered.
And someone else already said it would be Psionic, Divine, and Primal. I don't know about verification on that statement, but it seems to make the most sense (Since arcane already has 6, and martial doesn't really have any options left IMO)..
Elemental is already confirmed to still be in development, and will definitely still see release in a future PHB, probably PHB5 (with 4 being Shadow).
The confirmation for Psionic, Divine, & Primal comes from the cover to PHB3, which is almost certainly not faked. WotC seems to be on a 1 new source per PHB schedule.
I would like to see a necromancer type class in PHB3, but I don't know how they would do the undead controlling/summoning.
Won't be til the PHB with Shadow, probably 4.
Unless .... Shadow becomes the DDi exclusive source, what with the Revenant and Assassin being there already ... hmmm. I doubt they'll do that though.
Monk
Psion
(Psionic Leader) Empath makes a good name.
(Psionic Defender) I hope they don't call it a psycic warrior. Maybe something along a similar vein as the warden where they augment themselves. Someone who enhances their own bodies through mental power.
Witch- Primal Leader (I think the spirit shaman totally blew and so a new primal leader might be fun)
(Divine Controller) Something about converting enemies to their side for at least a limited time.
My real guess though, is that instead of 8 classes, we will get 6 and the full Hybrid class rules.
I don't know if this is still a policy they hold to, but I recall reading that no class will have more than one word in its name, so Psychic Warrior, Witch Doctor, and Favored Soul may be out.
Really? If I did not read it I would never have noticed..can't say I believe it but it is one of those things I will pay attention to from now on.
I suppose the question now that the psion has been previewed is do we think the shadow power source will have a new power system like the psionic source is getting? I hope so.
Hopefully not. The author commentary notes in the psion article specifically mention that they were opening the door on the ability to do alternate systems, while specifically clarifying that such will not be mandatory for every future power source. I agree that it's important for them to have the option to create new mechanical systems, but such systems should only be implemented with a distinct purpose and never just for the sake of being different.
In the case of the psion WotC had distinct purpose, to emulate the feel of psions from previous editions. In the case of shadow that will not be the case; Tome of Magic's shadowcaster even used what was rather clearly a protype version 4E's standard power system.
So, I'm guessing you don't know that Martial Power 2 and Arcane Power 2 are already scheduled for next year then?
I certainly didn't know about Arcane Power 2. Link to the announcement?
My real guess though, is that instead of 8 classes, we will get 6 and the full Hybrid class rules.
Its possible. Although it would require a significant drop in page count or else a significant increase in items, backgrounds, or something else. Both of which would go contrary to PHB2 and WotC's current pricing formula, which seems to be:
* If everyone is likely to buy it, its $29.95 and you get 223 pages.
* If its got more limited appeal its still $29.95 but player books are strictly limited to 159 pages.
* DM books can be greater than 159 pages, but the price increases by $5 for every 64 pages added to the book.
I'm basing this on:
* PHB2
* Adventurer's Vault 1, Adventurer's Vault 2
* Arcane Power, Martial Power, Divine Power, Forgotten Realms Player's Guide and Eberron Player's Guide.
* Monster Manual 2, Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, and Eberron Campaign Guide.
I would be surprised if WotC changed this formula. I think its more likely we'll get 7 classes rather than 6. Although I'm personally holding out for 8 (or else 7 with an increase in the number of races then we got from PHB2)
Hopefully not. The author commentary notes in the psion article specifically mention that they were opening the door on the ability to do alternate systems, while specifically clarifying that such will not be mandatory for every future power source. I agree that it's important for them to have the option to create new mechanical systems, but such systems should only be implemented with a distinct purpose and never just for the sake of being different.
In the case of the psion WotC had distinct purpose, to emulate the feel of psions from previous editions. In the case of shadow that will not be the case; Tome of Magic's shadowcaster even used what was rather clearly a protype version 4E's standard power system.
Personally, I don't think Shadow will need anything fancy; all the mechanics necessary to make that power source cool were pioneered by PH2. In my mind, the best place for us to see radical new mechanics after Psionics will be the Elemental power source, which nobody seems to have any idea about.
I certainly didn't know about Arcane Power 2. Link to the announcement?
Its possible. Although it would require a significant drop in page count or else a significant increase in items, backgrounds, or something else. Both of which would go contrary to PHB2 and WotC's current pricing formula, which seems to be:
* If everyone is likely to buy it, its $29.95 and you get 223 pages.
* If its got more limited appeal its still $29.95 but player books are strictly limited to 159 pages.
* DM books can be greater than 159 pages, but the price increases by $5 for every 64 pages added to the book.
I'm basing this on:
* PHB2
* Adventurer's Vault 1, Adventurer's Vault 2
* Arcane Power, Martial Power, Divine Power, Forgotten Realms Player's Guide and Eberron Player's Guide.
* Monster Manual 2, Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, and Eberron Campaign Guide.
I would be surprised if WotC changed this formula. I think its more likely we'll get 7 classes rather than 6. Although I'm personally holding out for 8 (or else 7 with an increase in the number of races then we got from PHB2)
Actually it wouldn't. If you consider that the hybrid rules not only have to explain how they work but give the hybrid class descriptions for all the classes up to that point (4 martial, 6 arcane, 4 primal, 4 divine, plus all in the PH3) and any supporting rules to them like feats and items and you've filled up the space of at least 1 class if not 2. Personally though I don't think we'll see hybrid rules in PH3 since they're apparently still being worked on while PH3 is almost past the point of any more editing and playtesting.
Also I suspect we'll see 4-5 psionic classes, and 2 each primal and divine but it's hard to say. We also don't know yet if they're holding to 5 races or not though we've got confirmation of 3 of them: githzerai, minotaur, wilden.
Actually it wouldn't. If you consider that the hybrid rules not only have to explain how they work but give the hybrid class descriptions for all the classes up to that point (4 martial, 6 arcane, 4 primal, 4 divine, plus all in the PH3) and any supporting rules to them like feats and items and you've filled up the space of at least 1 class if not 2. Personally though I don't think we'll see hybrid rules in PH3 since they're apparently still being worked on while PH3 is almost past the point of any more editing and playtesting.
Hybrid rules will take up roughly 20 pages plus 1 page for every new class introduced in PHB3(note, this based on the page counts of class playtests being roughly equal to half the page counts of the class in the actual book). Of cours that puts it as a little larger than a class entry(average for PHB2 is 18 pages).Personally I think that they can fit it in there with 8 other classes if they cut some of chapter 3 down in size, although I admit it will be a tight fit.
And the hybrid rules are fine as far as timing goes. The barbarian was in platesting in October and came out in March. PHB3 comes out in March of next year, so they could remain in playtesting for another three months and still be fine.
I'm thinking that we might have odd numbers.
Maybe 5 psionic classes, a primal, and two divine.
See from the sounds of it the staff wanted to intro the psi and Ki sources at the same time at first, but when Ki started becoming the "asian" power source they scrapped it and moved the class concepts to other sources.
So things might be a little off.
Also since it's generally considered poor form to stat 'zerai without 'yanki I'd lay better then 90% odds that we have four races confirmed.
I'm hoping to see either the defender or the other psionic striker have the mind blade stuff.
Hybrid rules will take up roughly 20 pages plus 1 page for every new class introduced in PHB3(note, this based on the page counts of class playtests being roughly equal to half the page counts of the class in the actual book). Of cours that puts it as a little larger than a class entry(average for PHB2 is 18 pages).Personally I think that they can fit it in there with 8 other classes if they cut some of chapter 3 down in size, although I admit it will be a tight fit.
Hopefully you won't have to reprint any rule updates in the PH3 and that will give you a little more room so the fit won't be so "tight"
Hopefully you won't have to reprint any rule updates in the PH3 and that will give you a little more room so the fit won't be so "tight"
Yeah, but that would only be five pages, and that assumes that there are no major rule revisions to mention. Personally I can't think of any that are needed, but I still think that assuming a page or two of them would be good for calculating out page counts. Incidently, I think the best way to free up space would be to cut the average page count per class down by one. Then cut a page or two out of backgrounds(we shouldn't need too many of those), and you basically have enough room for the hybrid rules.
Classes
Monk
Psion
Races
Wildren
Githyanki (semi)
Githzerai (semi)
Minotaur (semi)
We can also expect the following
4 Psionic
2 Divine
2 Primal
At LEAST 1 more race
Possibilities
Psionic - 2 classes beyond the two known
Psionic Leader - Empath is a decent name, but I wouldn't put money on it. Ideally it will have a heal power that can be buffed with PP. Make the Psions PP transfer power REALLY useful.
Another Psionic class. It's possible that we'll see a Psychic Warrior type class. On the other hand, the Psychic warrior always had the least powers, and was always the least Psychic of the psychic classes, so if one goes away, i'd like it to be them.
I'd really like to see a second Psionic Striker, because I'd like to see MindBlades (soulblades, whatever) make it into 4e in the first go of psychic classes. Augment their Sneak attack like feature.
Divine
Priest - A Leader with a secondary as a controller. Fewer direct combat powers than a cleric, more AOE effects.
Possilble either primal or divine - Shugenja, or something similar, an elemental magic focused Controller. It could fit into any of about four sources depending on how they flavor it.
I expect we will see 2-3 classes with an Asian flavor that HAD be slated for Ki before they dicided that they didn't like how it was turning out.
Minotaur are also confirmed by the same cover.
Githyanki are mentioned in the developer commentary for the Psion; some are taking that as confirmation, others not.
While the power sources (psionic, divine, primal) are confirmed for PHB3, the actual number of classes each are not.
Actually it wouldn't. If you consider that the hybrid rules not only have to explain how they work but give the hybrid class descriptions for all the classes up to that point (4 martial, 6 arcane, 4 primal, 4 divine, plus all in the PH3) and any supporting rules to them like feats and items and you've filled up the space of at least 1 class if not 2.
I think expecting feats and items for hybrid classes in PHB3 is expecting a bit too much.
As such, I'd say we should expect about 4 pages to introduce the concept and detail it, and then 1 page per class. Based on the Dragon articles this is a fairly safe assumption, in which case we need to find 29 pages (NOTE: I'm padding out even more space then Ranadiel did to make the estimate a bit more conservative).
In PHB2 classes take about 18 pages. So if we lost 1 class, we'd only have to find 11 pages. The Racial Paragon Paths for PHB1 races won't be needed in PHB3, so that grants us an additional 8 pages. If we don't have to pay for WotC's mistakes twice in the same book (because we're already getting the Minotaur which I've paid for 3 times now), we can find an additional 5 pages by removing the Rules Update section. That gives us an extra 2 pages, so if we do desperately need feats or items for hybrid classes, we've got a page for each.
If we lost two classes, we'd have an extra 10 pages. I'd certainly want to see some extra races for at least some of those 10 pages to make up for the loss of 2 classes.
Id like to see Seer be the psionic leader. Use forsight, foreknowledge to guide allies to where they need to be. I think it would be an interesting concept.
Have you had a look at the Prescient Bard build? Its pretty similar conceptually. It simply uses arcane as a power source rather than psionic.
Its still possible we'll get a separate Seer. But if you're interested in the concept, you could start playing it now. I think Seer works as either a leader or a controller. It could be that with Psionics we finally have a power source with two classes that aren't strikers (I'm not really including Arcane because that just has a crapload of classes so it was bound to get a second non-striker ;)).
Alternatively we could get a Telepathic class that could also act as a leader (read people's minds to give players buffs and enemies debuffs).
I think expecting feats and items for hybrid classes in PHB3 is expecting a bit too much.
we already know atleast 1 feat...I hope we get at least 2 more, one paragon, one epic...but I wont hold my breath...
As such, I'd say we should expect about 4 pages to introduce the concept and detail it, and then 1 page per class. Based on the Dragon articles this is a fairly safe assumption, in which case we need to find 29 pages (NOTE: I'm padding out even more space then Ranadiel did to make the estimate a bit more conservative).
sounds about right...
In PHB2 classes take about 18 pages. So if we lost 1 class, we'd only have to find 11 pages. The Racial Paragon Paths for PHB1 races won't be needed in PHB3, so that grants us an additional 8 pages. If we don't have to pay for WotC's mistakes twice in the same book (because we're already getting the Minotaur which I've paid for 3 times now), we can find an additional 5 pages by removing the Rules Update section. That gives us an extra 2 pages, so if we do desperately need feats or items for hybrid classes, we've got a page for each.
I have to break this down...
The Racial Paragon Paths for PHB1 races won't be needed in PHB3, so that grants us an additional 8 pages.
um...wont we need atleast 5...one for each new race...so this is only 2-3 pages...
If we don't have to pay for WotC's mistakes twice in the same book (because we're already getting the Minotaur which I've paid for 3 times now), we can find an additional 5 pages by removing the Rules Update section.
I disagree but understand the complaint...except when was the 3rd payment??? heck as I see it we got 1/4 a page in MM1, and an article in DDI...and the MM was for DMs not PCs, I could say you only paid for the DDI and now PHB3...but I will throw you the bone with MM1...
If we lost two classes, we'd have an extra 10 pages. I'd certainly want to see some extra races for at least some of those 10 pages to make up for the loss of 2 classes.
witch would be atleast 1 pg of feats (not really a full one, but hey close...), 2 pages for write up, 1 page of PP...so 4, maybe 5 pages...seams like 6 classes 6 races hybrid rules, and some errata fit nicely togather...
Alternatively we could get a Telepathic class that could also act as a leader (read people's minds to give players buffs and enemies debuffs).
since the controler builds are telepath and telkinetic...I hope not, we have sooo many cool sets of psi powers I don't want to see them double up this early...
um...wont we need atleast 5...one for each new race...so this is only 2-3 pages...
Racial Paragon Paths takes 18 pages in PHB2 because it has them for both PHB1 and PHB2 races. PHb3 will only need to have PHB3 racial paragon paths, so that chapter loses 7 pages worth of content.
witch would be atleast 1 pg of feats (not really a full one, but hey close...), 2 pages for write up, 1 page of PP...so 4, maybe 5 pages...
I don't see where you're adding these pages from.
1) What is the Write-Up for? We've already got a write-up for hybrids coming in at 4 pages on my estimate. If it needs 6 something is broken.
2) 1 page of feats is fine. I already had such a page in my estimate.
3) 1 paragon path takes 1 page.
So you've found an extra page, I didn't account for.
seams like 6 classes 6 races hybrid rules, and some errata fit nicely togather...
It would be moving towards acceptable. But I wouldn't really consider it acceptable. I'd need 7 or so races to make up for the loss of 2 classes.
We know that the wilden, minotaur and both giths will be there. Sure, the 'yanki's not confirmed 100%, but it makes a better psion than the 'zerai. With psionics as the showcase, I expect at least two races that mesh well with it. For that reason, a fifth race, if there is one, is very likely to be good at psionics.
There'll be a primal class that suits the wilden. This could be the witch; in fact it's hard for me to think of a more fitting class. As for the minotaur, while it seems quite primal-y and makes a fine barbarian or warden, I believe that PHB3's "intended minotaur class" is actually divine. The minotaur writeup in the Compendium mentions religion and holy individuals as very important facets of minotaur society. It mentions "mystics" and "holy warriors". Could these be the names, or placeholder names, of the two divine classes? I strongly suspect there will be a hefty, upfront divine class in PHB3, probably a defender.
Before the ki source was abandoned, it looks like there were four classes in development. Samurai, monk, shugenja and wu jen. (Maybe ninja and sohei as well, but I'm picking the aforementioned as the Big Four). Monks are accounted for and samurai are destined to be more concept than class, like gladiators. I think at least one of shugenja and wu jen will show up in PHB3, and if there's only one, it's most likely to be shugenja.
I'll end this with a few quick predicts.
Psionic: One of each role.
Primal: A controller and a ranged-weapon user.
Divine: A defender and another leader - potentially the first cloth-only leader.
I don't see where you're adding these pages from.
1) What is the Write-Up for? We've already got a write-up for hybrids coming in at 4 pages on my estimate. If it needs 6 something is broken.
QUOTE]
those 2 pages are for a base race write up...
those 2 pages are for a base race write up...
Aaah, got you now. Fair enough. You do paint a picture that could well see us having only 6 classes. But I'd really prefer 7 or 8 races to offset that. I don't think 2 or 3 extra races to offset the loss of 2 classes is too much to ask for.
I still can't figure out the Shaman's proficiency list going out of its way to include a weapon the shaman can't even use if it wants to keep using its powers effectively.
As for divine classes has anyone considered a necromancer? or is that too shadowy? Maybe an ur-priest type magic stealer?
Also might want to take a few pages out of your free space numbers, the psion at least has to take an extra page or two to explain its no-encounter powers thing. Possibly another page so they can take some time in the feat section to explain multi-classing into and from a Power Point Class.
I still can't figure out the Shaman's proficiency list going out of its way to include a weapon the shaman can't even use if it wants to keep using its powers effectively.
I'm betting Primal Power or Adventurer's Vault 2 will have spear(s) that can act as implement for Shamans.
As for divine classes has anyone considered a necromancer? or is that too shadowy? Maybe an ur-priest type magic stealer?
Personally I'd like to see a heavy armor wearing divine striker. Sort of an offensive version of the the paladin. I'd also like to see a divine leader that is more priest-like and less crusader-like, one who wears cloth instead of metal and who doesn't heal allies by clubbing enemies over the head.
I'm betting Primal Power or Adventurer's Vault 2 will have spear(s) that can act as implement for Shamans.
I'm betting that when the shaman was originally conceived that totems could be worn like a holy symbol.
Psion (Controller)
Monk (Striker)
Soulknife/Wilder (Striker, I think they'll merge these classes under one name or the other)
Pyschic Warrior (Defender, will almost certainly be renamed with the one that isn't used for the Striker)
Empath (Leader)
-Divine-
Some sort of heavily armored Striker or Defender.
-Primal
Witch (Controller, possibly with Leader aspects carried over from 3e Druid)
-???
Either Primal or Divine will probably get a second striker, probably ranged.
Soulknife/Wilder (Striker, I think they'll merge these classes under one name or the other)
You really think so?
I must say, this seems even more bizarre than all the folks that keep suggesting that soulknife will be merged with psychic warrior.
You really think so?
I must say, this seems even more bizarre than all the folks that keep suggesting that soulknife will be merged with psychic warrior.
It's mostly because, if you look at the Wilder's class features, they're a lot more consistent with a Striker rather than a Defender (particularly Wild Surge and the AC Bonus from Elude Touch, which seems similar to the Avenger's AoF).
Further, Wild Surge and the SoulKnife's Wild Talent both seem to have the same basic flavor (an outburst of raw psionic energy), and overall their class features seem to mesh more readily mesh together into a pretty consistent "out of control power" Striker type than with the Psychic Warrior (who's shtick is basically; "I'm a fighter, only with mind bullets").
Also, both classes are restricted to simple weapons and light armor, whereas the Psychic Warrior is a heavy armor class. Therefore, in conclusion, it seems fairly logical that WotC could merge the two Light Armored psionic Strikers into one class, rather than adding Soulknife to the clearly Defender-y Psychic Warrior.
Inclucde 6 More Hybrid classes- 6 pages.
PHB 1 Cleric- 15 pages.
PHB 1 FIghter- 14 pages.
The two first printed classes.
Hybrid rules ~27 pages.
Two classes ~29 pages.
I can see them cutting it back to 6 classes and including hybrid rules. Especially if they include a racial paragon path for each of the 4(IIRC) new races. I would almost argue that there isn't enough room for the hybrid classes with only 2 classes cut, if each racial paragon path takes 2 pages like in the PHB 2.
PHB 1 Cleric- 15 pages.
PHB 1 FIghter- 14 pages.
I think the PHB2 classes are a more reliable indicator as they all appear (from my random sampling) to have the same size.
Especially if they include a racial paragon path for each of the 4(IIRC) new races. I would almost argue that there isn't enough room for the hybrid classes with only 2 classes cut, if each racial paragon path takes 2 pages like in the PHB 2.
They don't take 2 pages. I don't know why you think they do
But if PHB3 has only six classes, this means every class in there will be debuted for Insiders or offered as a playtest, leaving nothing class-wise for them to discover in the final product. Maybe WotC considers this a feature, not a bug, but I think a seventh or eighth class is more likely.
Will be a squeezy squeeze to get them all in, though.
There'll be at least six classes. I remember a developer mentioning that we'd be getting five classes in the debut content. Unless they plan to reintroduce the monk, that's the monk plus psion plus four more to come.
But if PHB3 has only six classes, this means every class in there will be debuted for Insiders or offered as a playtest, leaving nothing class-wise for them to discover in the final product. Maybe WotC considers this a feature, not a bug, but I think a seventh or eighth class is more likely.
Will be a squeezy squeeze to get them all in, though.
To add to Nautilus's statement here, there will be additional content to bring us to about half the PHB3 total content, so likely Rituals will be included, Feats(like the 6 we got with the Psion Debut) Likely that the monk(after playtest response) will get reintroduced closer to the Debut of the phb3, Maybe some more magic items?
If they don't use the names from the original psionic classes in 3/3.5 they'll provide us with new ones, and likely a few completely new classes. Though I can see a renamed Psychic Warrior coming about somewhere.
I don't see how Hybrid rules would take up any more than what the sections on combat&Adventuring did from the first PHB, which was missing from the second(to provide some racial paragons and additional epic destinies in the classes section) so I can see 2 more racial paragons for each race except the Minotaur, which has one in the same article mentioned earlier in the thread. Though it might still happen to have 2. I can see Rituals being reduced to 5 pages, fewer rituals = more pages to provide for the Hybrid rules and other sections of the book. I've noticed that each race has two pages(both in PHB and PHB2). I think 5 races(10 pages), 8 classes(120? pages), Hybrid rules(30 pages), Feats(20 pages), a page or two with new uses of Skills, and Rituals(5-10 pages) This guestimate gives me around 200 pages, so even if you add more pages to new Skill uses, and errata's/explanations/clarifications of rules and 2 or 3 more races, your page count still wont exceed 223 of the PHB2(which was a dramatic drop in the page count when compared to PHB1's 317 pages)
It's mostly because, if you look at the Wilder's class features, they're a lot more consistent with a Striker rather than a Defender (particularly Wild Surge and the AC Bonus from Elude Touch, which seems similar to the Avenger's AoF).
Further, Wild Surge and the SoulKnife's Wild Talent both seem to have the same basic flavor (an outburst of raw psionic energy), and overall their class features seem to mesh more readily mesh together into a pretty consistent "out of control power" Striker type than with the Psychic Warrior (who's shtick is basically; "I'm a fighter, only with mind bullets").
Also, both classes are restricted to simple weapons and light armor, whereas the Psychic Warrior is a heavy armor class. Therefore, in conclusion, it seems fairly logical that WotC could merge the two Light Armored psionic Strikers into one class, rather than adding Soulknife to the clearly Defender-y Psychic Warrior.
Yeah?...Seriously I don't follow. The soulknife's "wild talent" was just the name of the feat granting them power points (need to allow them to make use of psionic focus and qualify for psionic feats). Their powers were not otherwise out of control, if anything they were quite the opposite (they focus all their power into a single precession tool).
Also I'm not sure the wilder would actually be a striker. Strikers focus damage on single targets, while the flavor of the wilder was more about lashing out uncontrollably (sounds more like a controller variant to me).
Honestly I just don't see any connection between the classs (flavorfully or mechanically)
There'll be at least six classes. I remember a developer mentioning that we'd be getting five classes in the debut content. Unless they plan to reintroduce the monk, that's the monk plus psion plus four more to come.
But if PHB3 has only six classes, this means every class in there will be debuted for Insiders or offered as a playtest, leaving nothing class-wise for them to discover in the final product. Maybe WotC considers this a feature, not a bug, but I think a seventh or eighth class is more likely.
Will be a squeezy squeeze to get them all in, though.
Don't forget that each Debut Content class is only half a class, though. There's a fair bit of content and flavour left to see when they only show us one build.
But I think you're right that they'll probably hold at least one class back entirely.
Don't forget that each Debut Content class is only half a class, though. There's a fair bit of content and flavour left to see when they only show us one build.
But I think you're right that they'll probably hold at least one class back entirely.
True. It's always fun guessing what the other build's going to be. Sometimes, just sometimes, I'm on the right track. :D
And someone else already said it would be Psionic, Divine, and Primal. I don't know about verification on that statement, but it seems to make the most sense (Since arcane already has 6, and martial doesn't really have any options left IMO)..
I take exception to you saying that Martial is tapped out. There are a lot of ways they can still go with Martial characters. I keep imagining a martial controller that uses boomerangs.
But in all seriousness, there are several Martial traditions they can draw on for new character ideas.
In the latest podcast the good folks at WotC talk about how the avenger started out as the templar until they took it in a more assassin/monk like direction. Not only does this settle the discrepancies with the PH2 spoiler letters, but it also indicates that the avenger started out as a rather different concept. That abandoned concept might well have grown into one of the upcoming divine classes in PH3.
A templar class (a templar by any other name is still a scary dude!) in D&D and yet no Dark Sun on the horizon? Yeah right :P
The story of the Monk let us know that the Ki power source is gone. However, I dont think the classes that were expected to go with it are gone as well. I am betting they will be moved to the Divine and Primal power sources just like the Monk was moved into Psionic.
So I am thinking Wu Jen (controller, Primal), Shugenja (leader, Divine) and Sohei (striker or defender, Divine).
I am almost certain I spelled some of those wrong since I never played Oriental Adventures classes but I know there were other options in that book. Help me out here with the spelling or what I have missed?
The Kensai was rolled up in the Fighter class and the Ninja, most likely, into the Rogue or upcomming Assassin class. There was a Bushi, a Fighter essentially; Samurai, a Paladin sorta; and the Yakuza, another type of Rogue, I think.
Anyway, those remaining classes don't make me think they will appear as classes in and of themselves, hence my predictions. Which again are: Psion, Monk, Empath, Psychic Warrior, Soul Knife, Wu Jen, Shugenja, and Sohei.
They said the samurai worked better as a MC class than a full class so it could be used for the various 'flavors' of samurai that are just focused versions of other base classes (paladin, fighter, ranger, etc.)
While they only recently revealed the death of ki it's possible that the decision was made before they got far (if at all) into the PH3 and just didn't reveal that info to us until they were ready to reveal what they did do with things.
I think we'll see at least 4 psionic classes (2 of them we know, a third is all but confirmed). We'll see 1-2 each of primal and divine. While it's possible they may include previously ki classes we may also see something totally new.
They don't take 2 pages. I don't know why you think they do
Because I was too lazy to go get/open the book. You are correct, 1 page each.
Still stand by my prediction of which classes and hybrid classes will be included.
Still stand by my prediction of which classes and hybrid classes will be included.
Especially after reading todays Design and development article which mentions "From this decision came one of the key design themes for the [PHB 3] book: flexible options. We knew that psionics would be a good fit for this theme."
What is more flexible an option than a hybrid class?
I wonder if, with the release of the Hybrid classes rules, we'll get a future Hybrid Power book, to give tons of new options for hybrid characters. I know 'hybrid' isn't a power source, but how could a money hungry company like WotC resist that temptation? ;)
The Templar kind of sounds like it would be a Divine Defender, but it honestly sounds more like a paragon path for a Paladin than anything else.
I like the idea of the Samurai being a multiclass-only option. That would open up all kinds of doors for future options, I think. Imagine a different MC feat for each 'build' of Samurai.
Also, could one of the new races not be the Thri-Kreen? Especially since people keep discussing Darksun being the campaign setting to be released in 2010? Or would it make more sense for them to release the Thri-Kreen in the Darksun Player's Guide?
I had an idea of a psychic race which has it's racial power augmentable with power points. So, naturally, the race would include a power point (or two) so the racial feature could still be usable even if you played (for instance) a Wizard. Also, a psychic class with the ability to augment another PP-using classes' powers for them (would definitely be a Leader.)
Also, could one of the new races not be the Thri-Kreen? Especially since people keep discussing Darksun being the campaign setting to be released in 2010? Or would it make more sense for them to release the Thri-Kreen in the Darksun Player's Guide?
It would make more sense for the players guide, but I wouldn't be suprised to find an insider only thing first. Also I think it is basically confirmed that Dragonlance is 2010, and Darksun will probably be 2011?
I think at least one of shugenja and wu jen will show up in PHB3, and if there's only one, it's most likely to be shugenja.
I think shugenja would fit perfectly into the Elemental power source since they have always been very connected with that idea. Wu Jen were very much an elemental class as well, though they had a close affinity with nature as well. I could see Wu Jen being folded into Primal.
From the article on psionics its guaranteed 4 psionic classes in phb2 which means probably 2 primal 2 divine. I have no idea what they are however. This is going to sound odd but could soul knife have been moved to divine? I can see it being a weapon of divine origin given to some mortals.
You mean psionics is guaranteed at least four classes. There is still no evidence that dismisses the possibility that there are more then four. Additionally there is no evidence that there is definatly 8 new base classes in the book, exlcuding hybruids.
As to soulknife moving over to divine, I can't say that it is ruled out as a possibility. However it will certainly be the giant "WTF! moment" of the book if it ends up being the case. I personally am predicting a no go on that, but it is just my gut reaction.
As for ideas about the new classes, I think it would be pretty cool if the new primal class was an unarmed shapeshifting striker or defender, who molds their limbs into weapons (like the guy in Prototype). It would certainly be a very distinct concept.
For divine, I'm worried that the class is going to represent a very niche concept. I have no clue what new ground they can cover with their class. Seriously, I think they've already milked all the concepts they can out of the source. What sort of divine character is there that can't already be created with the current classes? My only idea right now is that the new class might be a striker version of the paladin, based on the cover art. I would hate to see that though, since I think the new Ardent paladin build covers that niche well enough already.
there's a primal class I could sink my teeth into...
If anything there is no ranged weapon using Divine class so that's something they could use.
While that is true, I can't think of any archetypal divine character that fights with bows and such. It just seems like a very niche concept that would be better off as a paragon path or alternative avenger build than a full-blown class.
I think we already have pretty much all the divine archetypes covered:
Paladin: holy knight, crusader
Invoker: moses-style prophet, chosen of the gods
Avenger: religious zealot, jihadist
Cleric: priest
While that is true, I can't think of any archetypal divine character that fights with bows and such. It just seems like a very niche concept that would be better off as a paragon path or alternative avenger build than a full-blown class.
I think we already have pretty much all the divine archetypes covered:
Paladin: holy knight, crusader
Invoker: moses-style prophet, chosen of the gods
Avenger: religious zealot, jihadist
Cleric: priest
I believe archery is a very important aspect of shinto rituals.
native american and other tribal traditions as well... though I guess they're considered more primal in most aspects.
An "arrow of god" figure could be interesting and is definitely what I would call a fresh concept.
"I believe archery is a very important aspect of shinto rituals." -Undrave
native american and other tribal traditions as well... though I guess they're considered more primal in most aspects.
An "arrow of god" figure could be interesting and is definitely what I would call a fresh concept.
Actually, now that I think about it Shinto is an animist system that gives souls and spirits to just about anything and anyone can become a kami if they're recorded at the temple. So even though Shinto doesn't match the usual image it would actually fit with the Primal power source quite well!
A Primal Spirit powered archer! That could be cool. Using DEX as attack stat with a WIS build and a CON build!
I believe archery is a very important aspect of shinto rituals.
You're right! But as others have pointed out, Shinto (in fact, many non-Western belief systems) doesn't really conform to what we think of as "religion".
However, if nothing else, the longbow is the favoured weapon of the Church of the Silver Flame in Eberron. (That's one of the setting's major religions, if you didn't know.) AFAIK, there's not currently any good options for ranged Divine classes, which leaves this 3.5E-era tidbit high-'n'-dry for now, unless something's in Divine Power. Personally, I think a ranged-weapon build for the Cleric class would be just fine! (Perhaps the Avenger, too. OTOH, Invokers don't really "do" weapons, and as for Paladins, ranged combat is a bad option to build a Defender on.)
You're right! But as others have pointed out, Shinto (in fact, many non-Western belief systems) doesn't really conform to what we think of as "religion".
I know... I pointed it out MYSELF :P
But as for your other point its true that a Cleric build could do it, but by the same token we wouldn't have the Tempest build if the two weapon Ranger was enough... so I could see a ranged weapon cleric build existing side by side with a ranged weapon divine striker for exemple.
Avengers need to be in melee to really get much mileage out of their Oath of Enmity feature so it wouldn't work for them.
Also I think it is basically confirmed that Dragonlance is 2010, and Darksun will probably be 2011?
Considering how one of the developers of past Dragonlance source books (who AFAIK isn't an employee by WotC) keeps saying he doesn't think DL will be the 2010 campaign (I'm surprised he's said anything to be honest), I think Dark Sun still has some hope ;)
This is going to sound odd but could soul knife have been moved to divine?
Pretty much anything is possible. However I'm fairly comfortable in saying the minotaur on the cover is a new divine class, which isn't soul knife. If we're only getting 6 or 7 classes in PHB3, I'd be inclined to say that we're only going to get 1 divine class (possibly 2 primal ones. Possibly), so that would suggest soul knife isn't a divine class.
But to be honest, that's just baseless speculation on my part. I personally am expecting 5 psionic classes (4 and a converted from ki to psi monk), with 2 or 3 classes split between primal and divine.
Personally, I think a ranged-weapon build for the Cleric class would be just fine! (Perhaps the Avenger, too. OTOH, Invokers don't really "do" weapons, and as for Paladins, ranged combat is a bad option to build a Defender on.)
I would rather enjoy a new build for clerics or new cleric-like class that uses bows. As for avengers, I'd love to see them get a ranged build, but for thematic reasons I'd rather see them optimized to use crossbows.
You mean psionics is guaranteed at least four classes. There is still no evidence that dismisses the possibility that there are more then four. Additionally there is no evidence that there is definatly 8 new base classes in the book, exlcuding hybruids.
As to soulknife moving over to divine, I can't say that it is ruled out as a possibility. However it will certainly be the giant "WTF! moment" of the book if it ends up being the case. I personally am predicting a no go on that, but it is just my gut reaction.
I hope there are 8 classes and we havent seen more than 4 from one source in a book yet they might do that but I fully expect every psi class except monk to use power points ill be disapointed otherwise.
I hope there are 8 classes and we havent seen more than 4 from one source in a book yet they might do that but I fully expect every psi class except monk to use power points ill be disapointed otherwise.
In the Design and Development article for the Psion, the designers stated there will be three power point based classes, one of which is the Psion. Which brings us up to four psionic classes, though it is possible they could have another non-power point class like the monk.
In the Design and Development article for the Psion, the designers stated there will be three power point based classes, one of which is the Psion. Which brings us up to four psionic classes, though it is possible they could have another non-power point class like the monk.
I rather hope so. The monk will seem blatantly out of place if it is the only psionic class that doesn't use power points, though I'm not really sure what the 5th psionic class might be.
I rather hope so. The monk will seem blatantly out of place if it is the only psionic class that doesn't use power points, though I'm not really sure what the 5th psionic class might be.
Id rather all psionic classes except monk use power points. That way monk feels different.
However, if nothing else, the longbow is the favoured weapon of the Church of the Silver Flame in Eberron. (That's one of the setting's major religions, if you didn't know.) AFAIK, there's not currently any good options for ranged Divine classes, which leaves this 3.5E-era tidbit high-'n'-dry for now, unless something's in Divine Power. Personally, I think a ranged-weapon build for the Cleric class would be just fine! (Perhaps the Avenger, too. OTOH, Invokers don't really "do" weapons, and as for Paladins, ranged combat is a bad option to build a Defender on.)
There's the Black Archer in Forgotten Realms, too. I don't know if that would be his "favored weapon", but it'd be silly if it wasn't.
Still hoping that Divine and Primal are placeholders in the .indd file...
Unlikely. WotC would have been more than capable of blanking out portions of the cover image if it contained any information they weren't ready to go public with (they do it all the time with M:tG card previews), and it's not in their best interest to officially spread disinformation (there are already enough hot heads around these boards that accuse them of being lying cheats).
There aren't going to be two Psionic strikers. There's the monk, then three other psionic classes that use the power point system.
What proof do you have? All we know is that there is the monk (striker), the psion (controller), and two other classes that use power points (indeterminate). Beyond that we have been given no information that excludes the possibility of there being additional non-power point based psionic classes.
I was firmly hoping that with 4 classes and a *-Power book each particular Power Source would be done with. If this is true, I might be irritated since I found the sense of order that I perceived until now quite appealing.
i agree with you here. i would hate to see them push in a few additional martials, divines, or primals since the *-power source book is out.
however, the Martial Power 2 is already announced and will be coming during '10. we can expect that addition power source books may be slated for the future as well. those might work to bring together power sources better and offer paragon and epic descriptions for hybrids between the power sources. (ie. must have both as prereq)
i kinda hope they will throw in a few shadow sources in order to get a bit of excitement there. i don't care to see more arcanes, but an (or 2) divines or primals wouldn't be terrible. i'm interested in seeing divines that work against the common knowledge of the gods - heretics, apostates, and the like.
primals that follow the paths of the catastrophic dragons would be neat. see the heroic primal may not shrug when someone dies because of hte whole, "nature plays no favorites" theme, but having a primal that deals out disaster and catastrophy within the powers would be a fun twist to the heroic prusuits - collateral damages.
but i totally want to get the psionic source fleshed out. i like the idea of a leader and defender among the psionics.
Still hoping that Divine and Primal are placeholders in the .indd file...
Yeah, but we went through this with PHB2 when it said Primal, Arcane and Divine Heroes. I suspect that somewhere in the next month or so Wizards will preview a Divine or Primal class, simply because they can't preview all of the Psionic stuff and they said that at least 50% of the PHB3 would be out by release.
Bel
There aren't going to be two Psionic strikers. There's the monk, then three other psionic classes that use the power point system.
Remember, there were 2 martial strikers in PHB 1.
Remember, there were 2 martial strikers in PHB 1.
But there was no martial controller, either.
Bel
There aren't going to be two Psionic strikers. There's the monk, then three other psionic classes that use the power point system.
Where's your proof? Oh right, there isn't any.
There aren't going to be two Psionic strikers. There's the monk, then three other psionic classes that use the power point system.
I'll assume you're not claiming that a second psi striker wouldn't use power points.
While I think there's more chance of them filling out the psionics grid than including two strikers, we don't know till solid evidence turns up.
Considering how one of the developers of past Dragonlance source books (who AFAIK isn't an employee by WotC) keeps saying he doesn't think DL will be the 2010 campaign (I'm surprised he's said anything to be honest), I think Dark Sun still has some hope
Well thats good news to me. Can I get a link to where they say it? I greatly prefer darksun, but as for low fantasy settings dragonlance isn't terrible. (at least its not FR ;) .)
Well thats good news to me. Can I get a link to where they say it? I greatly prefer darksun, but as for low fantasy settings dragonlance isn't terrible. (at least its not FR ;) .)
Cam Banks (AFAIK, the person we're talking about) has said it a few times in other threads here on the Future Releases board. However, from what I've read, despite his association with the Dragonlance franchise, he's not at all in the loop with regards to what WotC is doing. He mentions that he doesn't think DL will be the 2010 setting on the basis of the limited production of DL novels next year; as I understand it, he believes that there would be more new Dragonlance novels next year if it was the official setting published that year.
I'm paraphrasing what I think I understood his position to be. If I'm wrong about what he's been saying, it's probably my error, not his.
There aren't going to be two Psionic strikers. There's the monk, then three other psionic classes that use the power point system.
If you mean there'll never be two psionic strikers, than that's a baseless assertion given Martial and Arcane both have 2 strikers and its quite possible Divine or Primal will get a 2nd striker.
If you mean in this book that's certainly possible.
Well thats good news to me. Can I get a link to where they say it? I greatly prefer darksun, but as for low fantasy settings dragonlance isn't terrible. (at least its not FR ;) .)
But.... its in that giant Dragonlance thread and I have no idea which page it was on
Though, dear old WotC has thrown us curveballs before. :P I could be totally wrong; don't get your neckbeard in a bunch.
I just think it to be a little obvious. Monk, psion, empath (all but officially announced, mentioned in Races and Classes, IIRC?)... and another striker? I just think they'd be better off doing a psionic defender. There's a lot more there (possibly with a guy who has intuition into what his mark would try next) than say, the soulknife (though Lord knows, I'd love to see that class back).
Though, dear old WotC has thrown us curveballs before. :P I could be totally wrong; don't get your neckbeard in a bunch.
Indeed, though you seem to be working from the premise that there will be exactly 4 psionic classes in PH3. We know that PH3 will contain the monk, psion, and 2 additional power point based psionic classes. That does indeed add up to 4, however, we do not know weather or not there will be any additional psionic class that do not use power points.
Guessing that PH3 will continue the 4/2/2 setup of previous releases is reasonable enough, though not only do we have no proof of such, we don't even know how many classes will be in the PH3 at all. Speculation is all well and good, but as of yet we still don't have much to work on.
Mark my words!
Mark my words!
*uses Divine Challenge on Aidan's words*
:P
We already know the Psionic Defender will be the MIME! He'll create invisible wall with psychic power to protect his allies and attract attention to him XD
We already know the Psionic Defender will be the MIME! He'll create invisible wall with psychic power to protect his allies and attract attention to him XD
:D
The psionic defender will be theJediSoulblade. A defender that can manifest a blade of psionic energy, use telekinetic powers to push and pull, and use telephathy to influence people.
Mark my words!
Lord knows there were enough custom Prestige Classes for during 3E, and custom kits for it during 2nd Edition...
We already know the Psionic Defender will be the MIME! He'll create invisible wall with psychic power to protect his allies and attract attention to him XD
Can't be. The mime class requires evil alignment.
Can't be. The mime class requires evil alignment.
That is SOOOO 3rd edition :P
That is SOOOO 3rd edition :P
3E is sooo videogame-y! :P
3E is sooo videogame-y! :P
Totally dude :p
The psionic defender will be theJediSoulblade. A defender that can manifest a blade of psionic energy, use telekinetic powers to push and pull, and use telepathy to influence people.
Mark my words!
Man, I hope so!! I think the only thing in the way is the limit to Magical Items that the previous edition class would be nerfed on.
Perhaps the Soulblade has an item that he makes at 1st level, this tube where a blade of energy comes out of...
Perhaps the Soulblade has an item that he makes at 1st level, this tube where a blade of energy comes out of...
I realize you're going for the Jedi effect with that idea, but personally I don't like it; I'd prefer he just manifest a blade completely psionically, including a handle if appropriate, the way Psylocke does in the X-Men. (She used to just manifest a blade out of her fists, but now she manifests an entire sword that she holds.)
I realize you're going for the Jedi effect with that idea, but personally I don't like it; I'd prefer he just manifest a blade completely psionically, including a handle if appropriate, the way Psylocke does in the X-Men. (She used to just manifest a blade out of her fists, but now she manifests an entire sword that she holds.)
That was a joke ya know.
That was a joke ya know.
Was it? Jedi/Soulblades are actually a pretty wicked concept for Psionic Defender, so I figured I'd run with it. :P
Was it? Jedi/Soulblades are actually a pretty wicked concept for Psionic Defender, so I figured I'd run with it. :P
Yeah but the tube thing.
I guess they could use Rods as implements. The Designers seem to prefer to stick to as few implement types are possible.
Those might be usable implements, think Yu Yu Hakusho and Kuwabara using the hilt to beef up his spirit sword in the dark tournament.
Primal:
Witch/Geomancer (Primal Controller): A 'darker' primal magician that focuses more on curses and debuff effects than the Druid. Instead of transforming himself, this class may focus on transforming the enemy; baleful polymorph-type effects will be a major shtick here. Alternatively, he may have powers that grant different secondary effects based on the environment he's in.
Savage (Primal Striker): A primal scout and hunter who can partially transform into a bestial form; growing claws and fangs to attack enemies. Unlike the many forms of the Warden and Druid, the Savage may focus on a single transformation with multiple uses. Alternatively or additionally, there may be a ranged "primal archer" build.
Divine:
Mystic (Divine Leader): A more 'squishy' form of leader (using cloth armor at most) with a more Eastern than Western flavor (this may have been a former Ki class which got moved to Divine). Focuses on warding abilities that keep enemies away and buff allies, as well as ranged arrow attacks that banish unclean spirits.
Not sure what a sixth Divine class might be. There's a few possibilities...
Inquisitor (Striker?): More focused on ranged attacks, stealth, and blasting than the Avenger.
Templar (Defender or Striker?): A more striker-like version of the paladin, but the concept seems to overlap too much with paladin already.
Avatar (Defender?): A warrior that claims direct divine lineage, which gives him abilities beyond those of mortal men. May use slightly lighter armor and weapons than a paladin to set him apart.
I just think it to be a little obvious. Monk, psion, empath (all but officially announced, mentioned in Races and Classes, IIRC?)... and another striker? I just think they'd be better off doing a psionic defender. There's a lot more there (possibly with a guy who has intuition into what his mark would try next) than say, the soulknife (though Lord knows, I'd love to see that class back).
Though, dear old WotC has thrown us curveballs before. :P I could be totally wrong; don't get your neckbeard in a bunch.
The Psion has 2 builds. The Telepath and the Telekinetic. I'd think the Psion is going to fill the role of the Empath class since Empaths are Telepaths are they not?
Anyways, you're basically saying that an Empath is a bargain basement Telepath. Gotcha.
The Psion has 2 builds. The Telepath and the Telekinetic. I'd think the Psion is going to fill the role of the Empath class since Empaths are Telepaths are they not?
Considering that the Empath class was described as a psionic leader, and the Psion is not a leader, we can say with some certainy that the telepath build will not be filling the role of the empath.