off topic digression into dissing the poor quality minis
They're as or more hideous than the previews suggest. I was unable to stop snorting in derision when I saw the goliath/human barbarian pack. You might be better suited looking to other brands and grabbing a cheapo start paint set and a half-decent goliath mini for 15 bucks. Without any prior knowledge I'm confident you could paint better than those things.
It's a cryin' shame really. I'd happily buy them if they were up to older DDM standards.
It's a cryin' shame really. I'd happily buy them if they were up to older DDM standards.
Just a quick question since I made a whole thread and everything for this, is it true that the minis come with new At Will powers for 4E?
By contrast the new monster packs look pretty sweet.
Yeah, I'm not impressed, but that Goliath fig is probably the best thing out there for that specific race. And since I'm playing a barbarian I can't complain too much. Appreciate the quick response, I just called the local comic store and they happen to have one in! :D
I rather like the Goliath Barbarian, but what disappoints me is the paint job it got. It was originally previewed in a nice textured brown, what we ultimately got lost all that texture, and switched to a rather cartoony looking green.
preview >>> released
What's really sad is that the glam shot of the release version there is really a glam shot. The colour scheme is as bad in the real models, but the paint is blobby and out of the lines. It's not even as nice as that hideous pic.
I rather like the Goliath Barbarian, but what disappoints me is the paint job it got. It was originally previewed in a nice textured brown, what we ultimately got lost all that texture, and switched to a rather cartoony looking green.
Oh man, that original version of the Goliath is something I'd pay money for.
If I'm going to buy pre-painted minis, they need to either be cheaper than unpainted plastic, or painted at least as well as what I can do myself. More expensive and worse is an unappealing combination.
The classes are bard, barbarian (2), cleric (2), druid, fighter (2), paladin, ranger, rogue (2), sorcerer, warlock (2), warlord, wizard (2).
Martial Heroes 1: Female Dragonborn Rogue
- Looks like a giraffe standing on its hind legs.
- Sub-optimal because it doesn't boost Dexterity.
- Alternative: Halfling Rogue (since that's what everyone's playing)
- Sub-optimal because it doesn't boost Dexterity.
- Alternative: Halfling Rogue (since that's what everyone's playing)
I know people aren't going to agree with me knocking the minis because they're not effective race/class combinations, but if these minis are supposed to be for the players, doesn't it make sense to try to make minis that match the characters people are most likely making?
I think the idea was to include both typical and unusual race/class combinations. It seems to me that each pack contains two optimal race/class parings and one sub-optimal race/class paring; that seems about the right proportion to me.
Also each individual mini can represent more than just its labeled class. That dragonborn rogue could just as easily be a dragonborn bard mixing together melee weapon powers and the new ranged weapon powers bards got in arcane power.
http://www.hordelings.com/forums/postView.php?post_id=185499&viewPage=0#185499
The use of the Goliath Barbarian's master-paint was definitely misleading.
I will 'fess that a few paints look better than I thought, namely the dwarf paladin (he's still huge though), the tiefling warlock (he's still a crap sculpt but not as bad as he looked), and the dragonborn female rogue, though I still disapprove of lizards with mammaries and always will.
this chick... eladrin fighter? is actually very nice and I'll be looking for her in singles.
As for the rest, I do not retract my opinion ;). Especial dishonourable mentions to the goliath, the bumblebee wizard, the bright blue wizard/sorceress thing, and both cross-eyed elves (the one with the scroll and the one with the staff).
I rather like the Goliath Barbarian, but what disappoints me is the paint job it got. It was originally previewed in a nice textured brown, what we ultimately got lost all that texture, and switched to a rather cartoony looking green.
yeah, what the heck wotc? that first one is apparently a miniature of smoke that has been blown up my a**, and not a goliath at all.
I rather like the Goliath Barbarian, but what disappoints me is the paint job it got. It was originally previewed in a nice textured brown, what we ultimately got lost all that texture, and switched to a rather cartoony looking green.
WotC is saving the preview paint scheme miniatures for a special PHB Heroes redeux set that will cost $14.99 :D :D
Yeah, I'm not impressed, but that Goliath fig is probably the best thing out there for that specific race.
I went with this for my goliath:
this chick... eladrin fighter? is actually very nice and I'll be looking for her in singles.
That's because she's a repainted Drow. Drow get lovin' ;)
Seriously, I wouldn't be complaining about those. You get 3 minis for the usual price of one (unless miniature prices dropped), so they are pre-painted and cheaper.
The previous format was making me mad, I have two Emerald Orb Wizards from the Dungeons of Dread set, and I didn't want any.
I still don't like the initial race/class choice, I think they should cover races from PHBI first, then move onto second.
Seriously, I wouldn't be complaining about those. You get 3 minis for the usual price of one (unless miniature prices dropped), so they are pre-painted and cheaper.
Not always valid. I have a quality level cut-off, and most of these are well below it. It doesn't matter how cheap they are if they're too ugly to fit on my gameboard next to properly painted minis. I may as well use coins, lego, and other effectively free tokens.
I'd be much happier paying twice this price for minis whose quality consistently approached the ones I flagged as being decent. As it stands, only one of these minis is truly nice. The rest are either horribly painted, or badly sculpted. I could stand the latter with prepaints, but not the former.
Of course, your mileage can vary and I'm not going to call you wrong. I just wanted to buy these, when they were announced, and am sorely disappointed that they are cheerio-box quality.
- Alternative: Dragonborn Two-Blade Ranger (since we all need another good Dragonborn mini that doesn't cost $20 on eBay)
Yes!!!
I'm using one of those old Redspawn Arcaniss (one of my favorite minis ever) for my dragonborn TWF ranger, but the fact that he wields a buckler (doesn't even exist in 4th edition) and a mace (!?) is a bit of a downer...
My game table looks like five year olds were playing with legos.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/matthew_stryker/3480654533/
Release some army common packs...you know...skellies/kobolds/orcs...
Keep the rest random with your marketing logic arguments but give us some army packs of commons.
Seriously, I wouldn't be complaining about those. You get 3 minis for the usual price of one (unless miniature prices dropped), so they are pre-painted and cheaper.
I think I know where you're coming from with this, but most RP minis will run about $5 per mini (for example, these Reaper minis). You only get to the $15/mini range when you start looking at singles for any of the tabletop wargames out there (IE, Warhammer, Warhammer 40k, or Warmachine/Hordes) - and then, only when you get to the single, high quality Pewter minis. Usually takes about 1 hour of work to prime, paint, and seal the miniatures (giving time for the paint at each step to dry, typically ~1 hour for the primer, and 30 minutes for the sealer) - I have literally painted a miniature to a much higher standard than what they show for those, in 3 hours, with significant time spent doing other stuff, mostly just waiting for the primer/sealer to dry (total - 2 hours waiting for that). The cost for the other materials used (spray paint, craft paint, and brushes) was negligible, as I already had all materials used for the mini.
Now, I would love to see some quality non-random minis in this range, but as it is, I would only shell out $5 for the product.
Magius out.
I think I know where you're coming from with this, but most RP minis will run about $5 per mini (for example, these Reaper minis). You only get to the $15/mini range when you start looking at singles for any of the tabletop wargames out there (IE, Warhammer, Warhammer 40k, or Warmachine/Hordes) - and then, only when you get to the single, high quality Pewter minis. Usually takes about 1 hour of work to prime, paint, and seal the miniatures (giving time for the paint at each step to dry, typically ~1 hour for the primer, and 30 minutes for the sealer) - I have literally painted a miniature to a much higher standard than what they show for those, in 3 hours, with significant time spent doing other stuff, mostly just waiting for the primer/sealer to dry (total - 2 hours waiting for that). The cost for the other materials used (spray paint, craft paint, and brushes) was negligible, as I already had all materials used for the mini.
Now, I would love to see some quality non-random minis in this range, but as it is, I would only shell out $5 for the product.
Magius out.
You keep $5 as your price point because you probably don't value your time correctly (in an economic sense). For those of us who can't get good results in a couple of hours, or don't have a couple of hours to do that, is the $5 spent on an unpainted mini better than $5 spent on a pre-painted one?
Most of the people who complain about the Wizards minis are people who already paint their own minis - you're not the intended market.
Magius is absolutely right. People who don't paint are, in my experience, pretty much just afraid of trying: you don't have to get all into it to make decent gameworthy stuff. I can almost guarantee there is someone in your game group - probably you - who can do better than this on their very first paintjob. Heck, my basecoats look better than any of these, and those only take a bit over an hour unless I've gone all-out. I'm not particularly talented and I've not painted more than five minis. Plus, you'll have a way, WAY huger line of minis to pick from, including stuff that works well for dragonborn or goliaths or whatever.
It's especially easy if you prefer your dragonborn with tails. Then you can use reptus minis (they have others, too). Twobladed dragonborn, dragonborn archer, dragonborn wizard, just for a couple I don't believe you can get at all through WotC.
As for valuing your time, do you ever watch TV? I paint minis during my TV watching time. One Firefly episode = about 1/2 a simple miniature. In a week, I did all my party's player characters without spending any time I'd have been doing anything productive. Valuing your time in dollars only really makes sense if you had big, important plans for that time.
But hey, I'm not gonna stop you if you want to pay five bucks a head for a mini that looks like . It's your table.
[EDIT: I should clarify that the last statement there, while irritated, is not meant to disparage anyone's tastes. If you think these things are worth the price and/or sufficient for your table, great. I'm just frustrated because I was genuinely interested in buying them until the proofs came out, and then the real thing proved the quality to be at the standards shown.]
Wait, these are going for 15 bucks USD for a pack of 3?? Holy crap. I thought people said they were cheap.
They're $10,99 a pack, or so does WotC website state. Not that cheap, but check your information before saying anything, please.
(They are cheap compared to Warhammer minis and I don't have much alternative).
Magius is absolutely right. People who don't paint are, in my experience, pretty much just afraid of trying
Or may not have time and/or money.
Personally, I'm planning on getting a complete set once I have time to use them.
The first set of PHB heroes was a bit of a rush job as they had to contend with the changes in the DDM line. The next set should also be a slight bit impacted, or so we've heard. The true test will be set 3.
(They are cheap compared to Warhammer minis and I don't have much alternative).
From someone who USED to play GW games. I basically consider most everything cheaper than their stuff.
I may pick up a set or 2 of the new pc minis when they have one I really want. Until then there's a local shop that sales single minis so he can still have my business until then. It's a personal call for everyone really. I know one guy who flipped when he saw the new dwarven paladin and scooped the pack right up.
Wait, these are going for 15 bucks USD for a pack of 3?? Holy crap. I thought people said they were cheap.
Makes the value argument more compelling, then doesn't it? $3/piece @ retail and less from online sales? Can't get anything from Reaper for that price.
Magius is absolutely right. People who don't paint are, in my experience, pretty much just afraid of trying: you don't have to get all into it to make decent gameworthy stuff. I can almost guarantee there is someone in your game group - probably you - who can do better than this on their very first paintjob. Heck, my basecoats look better than any of these, and those only take a bit over an hour unless I've gone all-out. I'm not particularly talented and I've not painted more than five minis. Plus, you'll have a way, WAY huger line of minis to pick from, including stuff that works well for dragonborn or goliaths or whatever.
As for valuing your time, do you ever watch TV? I paint minis during my TV watching time. One Firefly episode = about 1/2 a simple miniature. In a week, I did all my party's player characters without spending any time I'd have been doing anything productive. Valuing your time in dollars only really makes sense if you had big, important plans for that time.
So we should all learn to paint our own minis? Then perhaps we should all learn to sculpt our own? Oh, and then maybe we should make our own game up? Worked in the 1600s, right?
But hey, I'm not gonna stop you if you want to pay five bucks a head for a mini that looks like . It's your table.
[EDIT: I should clarify that the last statement there, while irritated, is not meant to disparage anyone's tastes. If you think these things are worth the price and/or sufficient for your table, great. I'm just frustrated because I was genuinely interested in buying them until the proofs came out, and then the real thing proved the quality to be at the standards shown.]
Like I said, the intended audience of WotC's miniatures line is not really those people who already paint their miniatures. If you think you can do better, then do so - don't buy these. I ain't got the time to paint, so I buy these.
Well, I also play the skirmish game, but that's a whole other beast.
Makes the value argument more compelling, then doesn't it? $3/piece @ retail and less from online sales? Can't get anything from Reaper for that price.So we should all learn to paint our own minis?
Reaper's p65 line goes for that price, and the sculpt quality is far better. Of course, not all minis by far are in the p65 line, but there is a huge variety. I've seen them go for under two dollars online; in fact, just today I was strongly considering buying some other brand minis for as cheap as I've seen any DDM plastics.
Then perhaps we should all learn to sculpt our own? Oh, and then maybe we should make our own game up? Worked in the 1600s, right?
What kind of bizarre strawman is that? I was making the observation that a cheap, easy paintjob can be done in little time and will look better than these by far. You don't have to learn to be a master painter, and what does any of the rest of that have to do with anything?
Like I said, the intended audience of WotC's miniatures line is not really those people who already paint their miniatures. If you think you can do better, then do so - don't buy these. I ain't got the time to paint, so I buy these.
And my point was: you should try grabbing a nice mini and quickly painting it up; you can probably get someone at a GW store to let you try out their in-house paint stuff if you don't want to fork out your own. You'll probably be surprised. I am not forcing you, I'm just saying: it's not anywhere near as hard, or as time consuming, as you think. If you can't, fine, but don't liken painting a miniature to sculpting or designing an RPG. It just makes it clear that you have no idea what kind of effort or time it actually takes (clearly, not as much as you think).
As for target market stuff, I'd be very willing to buy these even if they didn't approach my painted quality (and I make no claims whatsoever to any skill), if they were sculpted and painted to a level that met just a basic tabletop standard. Just because I paint doesn't mean I have no use for a nice prepainted mini: the larger my collection of tabletop-worthy painted minis, the better. The thing is, by the standards of a game with lego bricks representing monsters, many of these look too crappy to put out money for.
Like I said: if they are good enough for you, great. Buy 'em. I am just disappointed, because I wanted to purchase these.
Makes the value argument more compelling, then doesn't it? $3/piece @ retail and less from online sales? Can't get anything from Reaper for that price.
Really? (note: this set retails for $7.99, for three miniatures, and all are a more detailed sculpt than the WotC offering)
So we should all learn to paint our own minis? Then perhaps we should all learn to sculpt our own? Oh, and then maybe we should make our own game up? Worked in the 1600s, right?
Like I said, the intended audience of WotC's miniatures line is not really those people who already paint their miniatures. If you think you can do better, then do so - don't buy these. I ain't got the time to paint, so I buy these.
Why not? What better way to get exactly what you want, right? Then again, I have tried my hand at both of the things you're suggesting, and I have to tell you, the hour it takes to paint a mini is nothing compared to that. ~4 hours to get a decent start to the sculpt (and then, only if you already know what you're going for, and what you're doing, and the materials cooperate), then you need to harden the model, preferably take a mold so you can recreate it (hope you shelled out the $35+ for the mold making kit, and the $50 for the resin mix), and hope that you can get all the air bubbles out before you pull it out and paint it.
Or, I hope you're ready to put in the several weeks of work to just write up all the extras for your RPG. Sure, the system itself goes together right quick, but you have the skills, advantages, disadvantages, classes, equipment, random modifiers, etc to write up - and that's just so your players can have enough options when they make characters. Not to mention the weeks to months it takes to playtest everything, and make sure it works the way you want it...
I've done both (well, extensively modded a mini, but that took enough time), and let me tell you, painting a mini takes far less time to do than all that (unless, you know, the model is insanely detailed, and you want to pick out every single one...). Really, 1 hour versus 1 day to several months?
You keep $5 as your price point because you probably don't value your time correctly (in an economic sense). For those of us who can't get good results in a couple of hours, or don't have a couple of hours to do that, is the $5 spent on an unpainted mini better than $5 spent on a pre-painted one?
Most of the people who complain about the Wizards minis are people who already paint their own minis - you're not the intended market.
So, what does that say about the 30 minutes I just spent writing this reply?
Really, go grab a Reaper miniature (any one, really), and set it beside one of the minis from this set. Take a moment to really look at them side by side. I mean, really look at them, at the amount of detail in each. You should be able to see why I think this round of minis isn't worth quite so much.
Magius out.
Really? (note: this set retails for $7.99, for three miniatures, and all are a more detailed sculpt than the WotC offering)
Unpainted, assembly may be required, made of metal; I think not, but I'm not the intended audience for reaper minis, just as you aren't the intended audience for WotC minis.
Am I entirely satisfied with the the first wave of hero minis? No, but I'll take them over reaper any day of the week.
Unpainted, assembly may be required, made of metal; I think not, but I'm not the intended audience for reaper minis, just as you aren't the intended audience for WotC minis.
What's wrong with metal? The ones linked do not require assembly, for what that's worth: the cheaper minis are rarely multipart. When assembly is required, it takes wire cutters and a dab of superglue to do an acceptable job.
Anyway, I think the audience for both is "gamers who use miniatures". We used reaper for ages before anyone in our group learned to paint. We use WotC minis. The "intended audience" is, or can be at least, a lot broader than you think.
On a more concrete note, why did this thread get moved to future releases? It's about a current release.
What's wrong with metal? The ones linked do not require assembly, for what that's worth: the cheaper minis are rarely multipart. When assembly is required, it takes wire cutters and a dab of superglue to do an acceptable job.
Metal is heavier and more prone to braking than bending. Both factors make it harder to transport and store. A damaged metal mini will likely require glue to fix. I've stepped on a plastic mini, and the most I've ever had to do to fix it was drop it in a cup of boiled water.
I have painted a handful of miniatures when I wanted something that more precisely matched a character. My attempts have been about equal in quality to what WotC release. When given the choice between having to putting effort into a mini to make it table ready vs. no effort at all, I will take the effortlessness of prepainted 99% of the time.
Anyway, I think the audience for both is "gamers who use miniatures". We used reaper for ages before anyone in our group learned to paint. We use WotC minis. The "intended audience" is, or can be at least, a lot broader than you think.
Sure I'm a "gamer that uses miniatures", but what make me not the target audience for Reaper is that they don't make the product I want the way I want it. Just as you are not the target audience for WotC because they don't make the product the way you want it. We each choose the product we want, for you that product is made by Reaper, for me it's made by WotC.
To put it metaphorically, we might both be overlapping dart-boards, but our bulls-eyes are nowhere near each other.
1) Pewter
Pewter provides a solid, durable medium for miniature's to be cast in, and allows for much greater detail than Plastic or Soft Plastic, and, due to the length of its use, you'll rarely (if ever) find a pewter miniature with 'bubbling' (an issue that often crops up with Hard Plastic and, even more so, Resin minis). However, it isn't as porous as Plastic, so doesn't hold together with glue as well.
+High detail
+Highly durable material (barring glued-together joints)
+Craft paint tends to stick to the mini itself very well
*Middle ground in durability between Soft Plastic and Hard Plastic - many of the thinner pieces can be bent back and forth, but bend them too many times, or too fast, and they will break off.
-If you drop the model, expect the glued on parts to fall off, unless you use an over-the-top product like JB Weld.
-Difficult to modify compared to other materials
-Can chip if not sealed properly
2) 'Hard' Plastic
A much more recent addition, mostly used by Games Workshop and Plastic Model companies (which allows for a large volume for low cost), these usually cast the model in several pieces (allowing for much more customization), but the individual pieces are much more likely to stay together.
*Moderate detail
+Can be customized much more easily than pewter (cuts more easily, holds together more easily, etc)
-Needs to be primed before painting
+Primer is much less likely to chip, allowing more leeway in sealing
-Some pieces have air bubbles, diminishing overall quality
-Low durability - if you bend a piece of Hard plastic, it will either snap or you will need to break it to fix it (if it isn't too warped). I had one model break into 3 pieces by stepping on it with this material.
3) 'Soft' Plastic
Only used in DDM and similar collectible products, Soft plastic is easy to mass produce, and (from what I've seen) completely avoids the bubbling issues of Hard Plastic and Resin, and can stand up to more punishment than Hard Plastic can, and can stand more bending than Pewter can (it will almost always 'spring back' - with enough work, anyways). However, this comes at the cost of model detail.
+Very flexible, which means they're very hard to break outright
-However, that means thin bits are never going to look as good as other materials (Swords, particularly thin ones, some legs, etc).
-Lowest detail material of the set
4) Resin
Probably the most durable material of the set is Resin, which you'll only find on top-of-the-line, novelty materials. Very durable, this material can hold incredible amounts of detail. However, its density means that you'll often find warped or covered with air bubbles, reducing the overall effect. It combines many of the advantages of Pewter (durability) with many of the advantages of plastic (ease of gluing and customization) - but it does have it's own issues - namely, that if a piece is warped, it is extremely difficult to fit correctly.
(I'll leave out the pros/cons for this as it isn't relevant to the current discussion)
-Magius out.
The first set of PHB heroes was a bit of a rush job as they had to contend with the changes in the DDM line. The next set should also be a slight bit impacted, or so we've heard. The true test will be set 3.
That's the reason that I give them a pass for the first set. I was really hoping that they'd do something impressive, but considering the last-minute changes they had to deal with, I'm not going to complain.