Races- first letters Gn, second letters o, e, and h, and one has the last letter of r.
Classes- First letters D, R, B, W, I, T, S, S
"Only three or so are familiar, others are all new to D&D."
My personal bets:
Druid
R
Barbarian
W
I
T
Shaman
S
Druid is obvious, as is Barbarian, and I'd say Sorcerer as well. The 'I' might be Illusionist. From those letters, though, I don't know what psionic classes they're going for. I didn't think psionics was going to get its own full book in this edition (except the standard Power series book), since there's no mechanical difference between a power that is "psionic" and one from any other source. I'd also like to know exactly what he means by "the rest are completely new to D&D." Does he mean that it's a new name for a pre-existing concept that killed a couple 3.5 classes and took their stuff, or does he mean that we're gonna be totally blown away having never thought of them? I'd be inclined to say the former.
Check out the latest GamerRadioZero podcast for nice spoilers about the Player's Handbook 2! I wrote them down here so you don't have to remember:
Races- first letters Gn, second letters o, e, and h, and one has the last letter of r.
Classes- First letters D, R, B, W, I, T, S, S
"Only three or so are familiar, others are all new to D&D."
My personal bets:
Druid
R
Barbarian
W
I
T
Shaman
Sorcerer?
I think that might be one. I think I read in a blog that they were starting on the sorcerer.
R -
B - Barbarian
W -
I - Illusionist
T -
S -
S -
Considering that on P.54 of the 4e Players Handbook they specifically named Barbarian, Druid, Monk and Psion as classes, this list does not necessarily bode well for unarmed combat and psionics lovers unless they renamed the monk and psion. Although, Mearls did say that he probably forgot some...
B = Bard
S = Sorcerer
That's my choice of three familiar classes. As for races, I hoping for gnomes and genasi. And we won't know for sure until the PHB2 is ready to print.
R - Ritualist --shadow--
B - Barbarian --primal--or... Bard. --arcane--
W - Wilder --psi-- or... Witch --arcane--
I - Illusionist --shadow--
T - Telepath --Psi--
S -Sorcerer --primal --
S -Shaman (Druid nature) --Divine-- or... Shadow Dancer --shadow-- or... Soulknife --Psi--
Ok, here we go... I look for the Bard to be in this cycle, to much has been talked about this class. Perhaps the bard will show up as a PP for the rogue or ranger. It would be disappointing, but better than a showing in the PHB3 or worse, regulated to the Eberron setting. There are four power sources that may make it into this book, Primal, Shadow, Psionic, and Ki. Since the monk is not particularly been talked about and the first letter isn't on the list, we can assume that Ki is going to PHB3.
Primal is in, with the Druid, Sorcerer and possibly the Berserker... err, sorry, the Barbarian.
Shadow is in, with the Illusionist being the mating class to the Gnome race. But the lack of an N means that the Necromancer may be regulated to the Eberron book, or the PHB3 under a different power source (Arcane, perhaps?) Although the Shadow Caster may be a good class to place in this, I believe the Illusionist will take over the powers from that class as it was in 3.5. I want, so bad, the Shadow Dancer to be a full class.
Psi seems lost, though the possibility of Telepath and Soulknife is interesting, I really don't know if Wizards would abandon the Psion name.
So, in order... D-- Druid is a lock. R-- I put Ritualist there because some think it is a good class. This letter is a mystery, but may be a renamed Barbarian here, since... B-- Barbarian (or Berserker) seems to be a good bet, but the Bard was already a lock since before we knew about the Dragonborn. If the Bard gets pushed back to the PHB3, then that would cause some ill feelings that will spill from it being replaced by the wonky Warlord in the first place. W-- Wilder seems like a wild card (pun not intended) but Witch is a long shot I put there cause I really can't think of anything else. I-- Illusionist is a lock, though not having the Necromancer with it might mean that Shadow will return in PHB3, or as I mentioned already, maybe put in Eberron. T-- Is a quizer, but perhaps Wizards will change the name of the Psion to the Telepath.
Two S-- Sorcerer is a lock and Soulknife may be the other Psi class. The Shaman may be saved for later or put in Eberron, but don't discount the possibility of more than eight classes.
Gnome is a lock for the races.
The Half Orc will definatly not be in the PHB2. This is a race that would have been in the PHB1 or not at all. Play a dragonborn instead folks.
So, who has a better theory?
D - Druid (Shifter) --Primal--
R - Ritualist --shadow--
B - Barbarian --primal--or... Bard. --arcane--
W - Wilder --psi-- or... Witch --arcane--
I - Illusionist --shadow--
T - Telepath --Psi--
S -Sorcerer --primal --
S -Shaman (Druid nature) --Divine-- or... Shadow Dancer --shadow-- or... Soulknife --Psi--
...
So, who has a better theory?
Druid
Rager
Bard
Wilder
Illusionist
Telepath
Sorcerer
Soulknife
I think that the Barbarian will change enough that they'll be called Ragers instead. That gives us Barbarians AND Bards :D
Check out the latest GamerRadioZero podcast for nice spoilers about the Player's Handbook 2! I wrote them down here so you don't have to remember:
Races- first letters Gn, second letters o, e, and h, and one has the last letter of r.
Gnome is given.
o as 2nd letter: Goliath, Doppleganger, Goblin, Hobgoblin, Kobold
e as 2nd letter: Centaur, Celestial, Ogre
h as 2nd letter: Shifter, Shadar-Kai
r as last letter: Minotaur, Bugbear, Doppleganger, Aasimar, Centaur, Satyr
Those are the possibilities I came up with from a quick scan of the MM, with a couple from memory. I put the one I think most likely on the front of each list. Although, Celestial could take 'e', and Centaur 'r'...
I heard rumors that it would be out in Jan of 2009 and then others that said June 2009. Anyone know for certain?
Check out the latest GamerRadioZero podcast for nice spoilers about the Player's Handbook 2! I wrote them down here so you don't have to remember:
Races- first letters Gn, second letters o, e, and h, and one has the last letter of r.
Classes- First letters D, R, B, W, I, T, S, S
"Only three or so are familiar, others are all new to D&D."
My personal bets:
Druid
R
Barbarian
W
I
T
Shaman
S
Druid
R
Bard
Warmage
Illusionist
T
Sorcerer
Spirit Shaman( or just Shaman)
dont know about the R and T classes.
but those are my main guesses.
although
Troubledor cant spell it , but its a synonym with bard, so in theory the B could be Barbarian like you say
races:
Gnome
Troubledor cant spell it , but its a synonym with bard, so in theory the B could be Barbarian like you say
Troubadour. And its possible. I personally tend to associate bards with musicians in court while troubadours as travelling musicians. I don't know if that's just my personal opinion or if that's how they're typically used, but for me a troubadour would make more sense then a bard.
Gnome is given.
I hold out hope its a new race called Gnarly Wave Riders. They live on oceans and speak in stereotypes ;)
o as 2nd letter: Goliath, Doppleganger, Goblin, Hobgoblin, Kobold
e as 2nd letter: Centaur, Celestial, Ogre
h as 2nd letter: Shifter, Shadar-Kai
Considering Eberron comes out next year Doppleganger and Shifters are strong possibilities (although they could just be detailed in the Eberron PHB like Genasi).
r as last letter: Minotaur, Bugbear, Doppleganger, Aasimar, Centaur, Satyr
It'd rock if Minotaur were included!
D: Druid
R:
B: Barbarian
W:
I:
T:
S: Shaman
S: Sorcerer
R:
B: Barbarian
W: Wilder
I:
T:
S: Sorcerer
S: Soulknife
That's all I can, and like, to see.
B for Bard
S for Shield Biter.
Races- first letters Gn, second letters o, e, and h, and one has the last letter of r.
Here are the first letters given to us a while ago
G, G, D, H, and S
So out of
1st:
2nd:
last:r
Gnome
Doppleganger
Shifter
The Doppleganger and Shifter do fit so far. What other things begin with G's or H's
Thoughts?
D: Druid
R: Runecaster
B: Bard
W: Wild Mage
I: Illusionist
T: Transmuter
S: Sorcerer
S: Shaman
It's an all magic classes book :D
or maybe
D: Duelist
R: Revenant
B: Berserker
W: Witch
I: Inquisitor
T: Totem Warrior
S: Shadow dancer
S: Strategist
ah, who knows ?
I think it's a bit premature to get excited about the PHBII seeing how we are not likely to see it for another year. I've already seen at least one January release on Amazon: Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead.
That said I hope Wizards doesn't decide to cram psionics in just to get it out there when it could get better and more solid treatment in it's own book.
Sorry to disappoint you Johnnype, but on page 54 of the PHB it specifically says that Psionic is one of the power sources that will appear in future players handbooks.
So perhaps, since what we think of as being 'monks', unarmed fighters that draw on the power of the soul, could be renamed 'Soulfists'.
No! Monks shall henche forth be called The Z Warriors! dbz RULES! :D just kidding but seriously i agree, i like hand to hand combat, i want a class that relies souly on the Fists of the user and imbuing it with powaah! and i think that has nothing to do with being a monk, more like a martial artist... from dbz :P
-So far the Sorcerer looks to be an Arcane Controller.
-The Illusionist (controller) and Necromancer (leader) are heavily speculated Shadow classes.
-The Druid is all but finished by David Noonan, with around 80 powers.
-They will probably only release new classes in PHBs and campaign setting books (FR: swordmage - arcane defender), not power source splats.
-The Shaman is a confirmed Leader class (probably primal).
-I'm not sure, but I believe the Bard was practically confirmed as an Arcane Leader, and even though making it Primal could be nifty, what with taking the Bard back to his Druidical tutelage roots, I do believe he will be Arcane, especially considering the Shaman.
-There was mention of an Elementalist class in R&C.
-I also believe classes will only have one word titles/names, no Dread Rumper or what have you.
So:
-Druid?
-R?
-Barbarian?
-W?
-Illusionist?
-Telepath?
-Shaman?
-Sorcerer?
I remember he said they were having trouble with the monk a few months ago, and I'm almost positive someone said it would not be in the PHBII.
Maybe a 4th Ed OA?
R: Raging Something
B: Bard
W: Warmage
I: Illusionist
T: Tank
S: Shaman
S: Summoner
[RAMBLING TRAIN OF THOUGHT] As for renaming the Monk to avoid western Friar Tuck boondoggles, I suggest either switching to the already in use (in Oriental Adventures) Sohei or this:
the Japanese term for a school of martial arts was referred to as koryu, usually shortened down to Ryu (when combining with other words,)
and when referring to a practitioner of martial arts, they added the suffix -teka or -tori ([name of martial art]-teka); examples include Karateka (Karate practitioner) and Sumotori (Sumo practitioner).
So, an alternate name for monk could be Ryuteka or Ryutori. Or, one could use a term already in use, Sohei (Fighting Monk).[/RAMBLING TRAIN OF THOUGHT]
Dragon articles are not a replacement for being included in the PHB.
Actually, I believe they are meant to be. This edition seems to integrate the books with Dragon articles much more than previous ones, thanks to D&D Insider.
It is not the most important class, and a % minority of the base will really mourn it - especially with the martial and manly Warlord on now.
Obviously, you've never played with Skalds in 2nd Edition, or with Warrior Skalds, War Chanters or a plain, old 20th-level Bard in 3rd Edition.
Please make the "B" class, the Barbarian. More people will be upset over a Barbarian not being in over a Bard. In over 15 years of gaming, not one of us has ever played a Bard.
Well, in something like 16 years of gaming I have never played a Barbarian either.
Besides, Bards first appeared in the appendix of the 1st Edition Player's Handbook; Barbarians first appeared only in the 1st Edition Unearthed Arcana, so there, Bards have seniority over Barbarians!
D: Druid, Dervish, Duelist,
R: Renegade, Ravager, Ronin, Runecaster, Revenant
B: Berserker (per the Human Berserker in KotS, pg. 76)
W: Warmind, Witch, Wilder, Warshaper
I: Incarnate
T: Totemist, Telepath
S: Sorcerer
S: Shaper, Savant, Scion, Shadowcaster, Shadow Adept, Shifter, Soul Fist, Stalker, Seeker
Actually, I believe -dragon articles- they are meant to be -a replacement for PHB entries-. This edition seems to integrate the books with Dragon articles much more than previous ones, thanks to D&D Insider.
Since it has been said over and over again that the DDi is an optional service, then no, they are not. I shouldn't have to pay a monthly ransom for a class that should be in a PHB. Period.
Since it has been said over and over again that the DDi is an optional service, then no, they are not. I shouldn't have to pay a monthly ransom for a class that should be in a PHB. Period.
Well anything is optional besides the first three books. Including PHB2!
Thing is, you won't have to pay a monthly ransom. You can buy the issues separately (and will have to for issues released before you subscribe) and individually, so if you just want the bard, you can just buy that issue.
Another thread has it to where there is only one class that starts with B, and it is a question on whether it would be the Barbarian (or Berserker) or the Bard. I would say the Bard, but the Barbarian is said to be using the Primal power source so it would either be pushing the Bard back to PHB3, or renamed.
Dragon magazine has always been optional material, in case you didn't know, stuff that put more spice into the rules (WOW your players!!) and added some content that would enhance the game. Some of the classes that were put in for the previous edition before made a splash and was used in later splat books, but most was like the glut of PrC's and didn't mesh well with the CORE setting.
Most of the stuff in the past two years has been stellar, from what I hear.
So, no, having a class "Published" in DDi will not preclude them from having the same class in the PHB. I will wait for the book.
They are not going to be "issues" but a collection of articles that happened to be put on that month.
Okay... I'm not really sure I see the difference IF they continue to follow their proposed publishing model.
But that aside, the mags will not be "CORE" and the Bard has been confirmed as a CORE class.
Once again the difference between core and not core to me seems arbitrary and meaningless in 4e (I can't comment on earlier editions). There is setting specific information, and then there's non-setting specific information with WotC published goods getting a consistent level of support.
So, no, having a class "Published" in DDi will not preclude them from having the same class in the PHB.
Of course not. Although if they don't intend to publish something in a book then it could be you'll only get it in DDi.
Perhaps those that wane for the **** baby Half Orc will be satisfied with the write up in the DDi for that, since it will not return to a PHB, but the Bard is a lock.
You see, that is the point. Wizards has every intention of publishing the Bard in a PHB.
Alright.
Perhaps those that wane for the **** baby Half Orc will be satisfied with the write up in the DDi for that
Sad to see so many people can only think of **** producing a half-orc like creature
scroll down to The MMO Report: 4th Edition D&D Special
Posted by Patrick Roche-Sowa - Friday, April 18, 2008 11:12 AM
In the video he said there will be class like the druid the bard and the barbarian.
Alright.
Sad to see so many people can only think of **** producing a half-orc like creature
It's sadly the most logicaly possible... and it is... reason one exist in the world.
ESPECIALLY a PoL world.
As for the rest;
D - Druid (Nature Spells, no Wildshape)
R -
B - Barbarian
W - Wilder
I -
T - Telepath (Psionics)
S - Shadow Shaper (or something else shadowy.. but not shadow caster because that's not 'new to D&D)
S - Shaman (Totemic and Wildshaping 'Druid')
One of these has to be a 'Psychic Warrior' type deal, but I can't think of any good names for the letters given.
The reason no Bard or Sorcerer? The PHB was Martial Divine and Arcane heros, this one is going to be Primal, Shadow and Psionic heroes. In short, NO ARCANE this book. No sorcerers or bards. Don't expect them until 'Arcane Power'.
They are not going to be "issues" but a collection of articles that happened to be put on that month. But that aside, the mags will not be "CORE" and the Bard has been confirmed as a CORE class. It will be in a PHB, though if that would be the PHB2 or the PHB3 is another story.
I don't know what you consider 'core'. From my perspective, playing mostly RPGA games, I consider 'core' anything to be valid in the RPGA.
From the RPGA character creation documentation, All material from Dragon Magazines (except Magic Items and Rituals) are considered 'Player Content' and available for all players to choose from without campaign documentation.
That means that if a class (or feat or power...) appears in Dragon, you can use it in the RPGA.
They did make refferences to 'playtest' classes, which they will initially release in Dragon, but will eventually put in a book, and the book version is the 'final' version, but you can use the Dragon version until the book comes out. So don't go freaking out if Bard, or other class, appears in Dragon before going into a book ^-^.
D: Druid
T: Troubadour ( traveling Bard), Telepath, Transmuter, Totem warrior
R:Renegade, Ravager, Ronin, Runecaster, Revenant, Runecaster,
W: Warmage, Wilder,Warmind, Witch, Wildmage, Warchanter
S: Sohei, Shaman, Spirit Shaman, Sorcerer,Skald, Swashbuckler, Summoner,Shadowdancer,Soulknife
B: bard, Barbarian, Berserker
I:Incarnate,Illusionist,Inquisitor,
did i miss any
So how many of these would actually would do better as paragon paths, or forgotten in general
Troubadour. And its possible. I personally tend to associate bards with musicians in court while troubadours as travelling musicians. I don't know if that's just my personal opinion or if that's how they're typically used, but for me a troubadour would make more sense then a bard.
I'm sorry, this horribly confused me. Troubadours *are* court musicians and poets. Bard is originally a celtic term for a religious leader who memorized the important mythical stories (generally songs or poems), and its closest analog is the skald. Quite likely they fulfilled the equivalent of court and travelling archetypes.
It's sadly the most logicaly possible... and it is... reason one exist in the world.
One reason, not all, the last half-orc in my current Planescape campaign was born of a human father and orc mother, who were forbidden lovers
‘Meet me behind the chippy for a snog…’
The 3 confirmed classes are "Not unlike" the Druid, Barbarian, and Bard. So... I would take that to mean that, while some of those will have different names, we can be certain that the:
Druid
Barbarian
Bard
will be in the PHB2, though some of them will have different names. NOTE: If you don't believe me, just go watch the vid. This isn't somebodies opinion... it's confirmed.
D: Druid
T: Troubadour ( traveling Bard), Telepath, Transmuter, Totem warrior
R:Renegade, Ravager, Ronin, Runecaster, Revenant, Runecaster,
W: Warmage, Wilder,Warmind, Witch, Wildmage, Warchanter
S: Sohei, Shaman, Spirit Shaman, Sorcerer,Skald, Swashbuckler, Summoner,Shadowdancer,Soulknife
B: bard, Barbarian, Berserker
I:Incarnate,Illusionist,Inquisitor,
did i miss any
So how many of these would actually would do better as paragon paths, or forgotten in general
Probably a great majority of them. However, I can see some as being classes on their own (druid, telepath, ravager, swashbuckler, incarnate as the primary suspects).
One reason, not all, the last half-orc in my current Planescape campaign was born of a human father and orc mother, who were forbidden lovers
‘Meet me behind the chippy for a snog…’
Orcs are evil and butt-ugly in most settings, so...
On the subject of Half Orcs
Try this link.
Did anyone bother to go watch that G4 vid that was posted a few posts ago? Thanks for posting that! Anyway, it confirms 3 classes for the PHB2, and states that they will start doing previews for those classes this summer (right around the corner).
The 3 confirmed classes are "Not unlike" the Druid, Barbarian, and Bard. So... I would take that to mean that, while some of those will have different names, we can be certain that the:
Druid
Barbarian
Bard
will be in the PHB2, though some of them will have different names. NOTE: If you don't believe me, just go watch the vid. This isn't somebodies opinion... it's confirmed.
So does a "not unlike" class mean that its a new class or that its an old one? Because we've got 3 definites with them working on Sorcerer. Given that Sorcerer is either more complete then Druid or at a similar completeness, it would be odd for the Sorcerer not to appear in PHB2, which brings the count of old classes to 4.
So does a "not unlike" class mean that its a new class or that its an old one? Because we've got 3 definites with them working on Sorcerer. Given that Sorcerer is either more complete then Druid or at a similar completeness, it would be odd for the Sorcerer not to appear in PHB2, which brings the count of old classes to 4.
As it stands, one class is getting renamed (god, I hope it is the Barbarian) so it won't be of the "Old Guard" and some of the original abilities that seemed out of place (Bard, Barbarian and Druid, folks, let's face it) will be gone.
So either the Bard or the Barbarian will be renamed. Since the logical name for the Barbarian also starts with a B (Berserker) I would have to say the Bard is getting the new name, and perhaps tossing away the god awful crutch of music being the only perceived way to access his talents.
It also would have the "Bard" write up be in the DDi and have the class "Troubadour" in the PHB.
Really, I would rather the Barbarian name be retired, and used more for a culture than a class.
D: Druid (Primal striker)
T: Telepath (Psionic leader)
R: Rager (Primal Defender)
W: Witch (Primal Leader)
S: Soulknife (Psionic Striker)
S: Shaman (Primal Controller)
B: Bard (Arcane Leader)
I: Incantrix (Arcane Controller)
So, if only Primal and Psi...
D - Druid (Shifter, Primal) -- look, it is confirmed that the druid is a shape shifter class.
R -Riftwalker (arcane? Primal? Psi?) sue me, it is the only thing I can think of. Rager is to close to Ranger in my mind.
B - Bard (Arcane)
W - Warrior (renamed barb? Primal)
I - - - - - wow, the only thing popping is a caster class, Illusionist? Nope, it is Shadow Invoker? Arcane power source perhaps?
T - Telepath (Psi)
S - Soulknife (Psi)
S - Sorcerer (Primal)
So turn it around, Shadow and Primal
D Druid (Primal, shifter class)
R Ravager (Primal, Barbarian renamed)
B Bard (Arcane)
W Witch (Shadow)
I Illusionist (Shadow)
T Totemist (Primal)
S Shaman (Divine)
S Sorcerer (Primal)
And All Three?
D Druid (Primal, Shifter Class)
R Ravager (Primal, renamed Barbarian)
B Bard (Arcane)
W Walker (Shadow, redone Shadow Dancer)
I Illusionist (Shadow)
T Telepath (Psi)
S Soulknife (Psi)
S Sorcerer (Primal)
At the Seattle game day event, I did an interview with Gamer Radio Zero and was asked about the classes in the PH 2. It was a long, hectic day, and I had very little sleep, so I managed to get some of the initials wrong. Anyway, here are the correct ones:
B
B
D
I
S
S
T
W
There is no R class. I have no idea how my brain inserted that letter into the sequence.
It will be, yes. However what other Ge race is there? Because with the guesses of "Gn*, Doppleganger/Duergar, Hobgoblin, Shadar-kai/Shifter" Ge is the only option left.
D'oh!
Bel
I can tell you now that the Gnome will not be in the PHB2... why? because they're in the MM, P. 277, along with the Gnoll. My guess is the Gn is a new race entirely.
To be quite frank, the playable race write ups in the MM are not the same as an PHB or Player Guide race for players. Never was before, won't be now. The Savage Species book made up more problems than it was worth in the previous edition, and forget playing a race with additional HD in addition to the LA.
The Gnome is a lock in the new PHB2.
It will be, yes. However what other Ge race is there? Because with the guesses of "Gn*, Doppleganger/Duergar, Hobgoblin, Shadar-kai/Shifter" Ge is the only option left.
what if you're wrong on your other guesses
what if you're wrong on your other guesses
If you can come up with another combination of guesses I'd love to hear them
This frees up the possibility of Drow, or something/anything, since R could be part of Shifter (as an example).
Just sayin.[/indent]
So when are Drow being released as a playable race? I must have missed it somewhere ..... because with the release of FR this summer/fall, it seems logical to me that if the Drow weren't playable as a race yet, they would definately be in the PHB2.
I also think that the PHB2 will have the same number of races as the PHB, just as the classes appear to have the same number. If this is true, then there could be 2 races beginning with D, making both the Drow & Duergar possible.
Of course I could be completely wrong too .....
My guesses:
GNome
GEnasi or GOblin
Drow or DuergaR
HObgoblin
SHadar-kai
Drow and Genasi were confirmed as races in the FR Player's Guide coming out in September. It's also been confirmed that races detailed in any campaign settings Player's Guide or in a PHB won't be repeated in another source (though we may see extra features for those races elsewhere).
The R could be used in conjunction with any of the second letters since it was simply stated that "one of them ends with an R", with no stipulation that the one ending in R differed from one of those containing a teased second letter.
While technically correct, its a bit of a coincidence (IMO) that we were given 5 letters to begin with and then were later given another 5 letters if we were only given letters from 4 races the second time.
I HIGHLY dislike the idea of renaming the Psion 'Telepath', a la D20 Modern, since the name Telepath implies that it cannot do any physical damage, only psychic (mental) damage. Psion is more holistic, since a Psi with telekinesis should do Force damage, not 'Psychic'.
But classes are being broken into smaller pieces. Telekinesis may well fall outside the realm of the telepath. The telepath could do psychic damage, dominate foes, turn them against each other, hold them, and all that psychic stuff, but not have any telekinetic abilities at all, or leave that for a paragon path. Of course, that is just a telepath, and there would be other classes using the psionic power source that could come along later, offering strikers (a soulbow, maybe), defenders (psychic warrior), and maybe even a leader (Ardent).
B Berserker (Primal) I have a vain hope that the Barbarian name would be retired, and that the true reason for the class is closer to this name. I see this class, no matter the name used, as something that will be completely changed from the bare chested fighter variant of the previous edition.
B Bard (Arcane ) The Bard should have been in the first PHB, instead of the Warlord. That he is going to be like the Warlock, getting powers from Patrons that are like powerful Muses. I wouldn't be surprised to see the power source for the Bard to change to Primal, but for now, I say Arcane.
D Druid (Primal) The "shifter" druid is not the Druid that most people are looking for. I think that the uber powerful, multi roled Druid is gone. The previous editions have changed the Druid between them and this new edition of D&D is not going to be any different. For most people, the true Druid in this new edition will likely be the Shaman.
I Illusionist (Shadow) This is the most exciting class in my mind, and one that will bring back some of the lost mystique from 1st edition. It will be disappointing not to have the Necromancer along with it this go around (No N, you see.) but the Gnome and Illusionist are most likely be in the same PHB.
S Soulknife (Psi) This will be the Physic Warrior along with the Soulknife. The name Soulknife is just too cool not to have back again.
S Sorcerer (Primal) I like the new elemental direction that this class is taking, though I cringe at the possibility of Wild Mage surges. This type of stuff is why I didn't like the Binder. I have high hope for the Sorcerer, higher than what became of the Warlock.
T Telepath (Psi) The Psion is a twitchy type of name and one that will not be missed. The Telepath is a good class name.
W Witch (Shadow) This will be a class that will more like what the Warlock should have been.
I will go through my guesses and an explanation for each.
B Berserker (Primal) I have a vain hope that the Barbarian name would be retired, and that the true reason for the class is closer to this name. I see this class, no matter the name used, as something that will be completely changed from the bare chested fighter variant of the previous edition.
B Bard (Arcane ) The Bard should have been in the first PHB, instead of the Warlord. That he is going to be like the Warlock, getting powers from Patrons that are like powerful Muses. I wouldn't be surprised to see the power source for the Bard to change to Primal, but for now, I say Arcane.
D Druid (Primal) The "shifter" druid is not the Druid that most people are looking for. I think that the uber powerful, multi roled Druid is gone. The previous editions have changed the Druid between them and this new edition of D&D is not going to be any different. For most people, the true Druid in this new edition will likely be the Shaman.
I Illusionist (Shadow) This is the most exciting class in my mind, and one that will bring back some of the lost mystique from 1st edition. It will be disappointing not to have the Necromancer along with it this go around (No N, you see.) but the Gnome and Illusionist are most likely be in the same PHB.
S Soulknife (Psi) This will be the Physic Warrior along with the Soulknife. The name Soulknife is just too cool not to have back again.
S Sorcerer (Primal) I like the new elemental direction that this class is taking, though I cringe at the possibility of Wild Mage surges. This type of stuff is why I didn't like the Binder. I have high hope for the Sorcerer, higher than what became of the Warlock.
T Telepath (Psi) The Psion is a twitchy type of name and one that will not be missed. The Telepath is a good class name.
W Witch (Shadow) This will be a class that will more like what the Warlock should have been.
I do agree with you on quite a few of these. I have been wondering if they could, potentially, be reviving the Spellthief class as one of those "S" slots. The concept had a lot of promise in 3.5; locking down an enemy wizard is quite a spectacle.
Illusionist, I don't believe is going to come through as they already posted that web enhancement that can steer a wizard to that path already. The only problem with taking "Illusionist" off the table is the very simple fact that there are very few things that start with "I" that could be classes.
Telepath I see being Telekenetic. Using mental abilities as a physical damaging force more than causing direct mental damage.
Another theory I do wish to bring up that may fuel better speculation is to look at the order of classes shown in PHB1; 3 Strikers, 2 Protectors, 2 Leaders, and 1 Controller. I think it may be fesable to think they may be aiming for an equal number of each archetype when they're all said and done. I think, out of the hints given, a way to think about this is the majority may be controller types and the least being striker types. Again, this is just my perspective, I may be WAY off. We're all speculating so this entire thread is just pure guesswork, heh.
I truly DO expect a Monk equivalent somewhere in PHB2, but those letter choices make things look rather bleak unless someone knows a bare-fisted fighter equivalent that could be properly named.
I will go through my guesses and an explanation for each.
B Berserker (Primal) I have a vain hope that the Barbarian name would be retired, and that the true reason for the class is closer to this name. I see this class, no matter the name used, as something that will be completely changed from the bare chested fighter variant of the previous edition.
B Bard (Arcane ) The Bard should have been in the first PHB, instead of the Warlord. That he is going to be like the Warlock, getting powers from Patrons that are like powerful Muses. I wouldn't be surprised to see the power source for the Bard to change to Primal, but for now, I say Arcane.
D Druid (Primal) The "shifter" druid is not the Druid that most people are looking for. I think that the uber powerful, multi roled Druid is gone. The previous editions have changed the Druid between them and this new edition of D&D is not going to be any different. For most people, the true Druid in this new edition will likely be the Shaman.
I Illusionist (Shadow) This is the most exciting class in my mind, and one that will bring back some of the lost mystique from 1st edition. It will be disappointing not to have the Necromancer along with it this go around (No N, you see.) but the Gnome and Illusionist are most likely be in the same PHB.
S Soulknife (Psi) This will be the Physic Warrior along with the Soulknife. The name Soulknife is just too cool not to have back again.
S Sorcerer (Primal) I like the new elemental direction that this class is taking, though I cringe at the possibility of Wild Mage surges. This type of stuff is why I didn't like the Binder. I have high hope for the Sorcerer, higher than what became of the Warlock.
T Telepath (Psi) The Psion is a twitchy type of name and one that will not be missed. The Telepath is a good class name.
W Witch (Shadow) This will be a class that will more like what the Warlock should have been.
I agree with what you've said above. It all seems to make sense. However, I just listened to the Mearls interview again and a few statements caught my attention.
For those that haven't listened to the interview, Mike Mearls had this to say about some of the new classes:
"And there's a few new things, really classes that no one's ever seen before in D&D. And we're trying to do some pretty interesting stuff mechanically with them. So if there are things like y'know maybe you wanted to play a cleric, but be a bit more on the spellcastery side. That kind of thing. We're trying to go into different directions. If you like playing strikers, but want a kind of maybe a different flavored striker - a guy who is maybe a little more deadly and dangerous kind of guy. Not like a rogue, but sort of a killer guy in a different way. There'll be a class a little bit like that, but with some interesting flavor. If you look at the druid in particular - if you like a lot of the aspects of the druid, we're really using that as like the bedrock for how we're gonna do character classes that are related to that style of magic. The primal power source we mentioned in the PHB, those character classes we kind of see the druid as 'Okay, this is the main example of it. What other character classes could you build off of that,'. ...... So essentially we need to build this entire mythos around him, not only just the druid, but for the other classes. Just like you have wizards and warlocks, we need to have the druid and, 'Okay, who are the other guys that are going to be alongside him,'. We have like an entire superteam of those guys in the works, I think people are going to be pretty excited about."
The part above about clerics that are more "spellcastery" doesn't really seem to fit into any of the guesses above. I could see a Shaman possibly filling this role, but the Shaman is likely going to use the Primal power source, or maybe even Elemental. I don't think it will be Divine.
The only classes above I could see filling the striker role he mentioned would be maybe a type of barbarian/berserker or maybe the soulknife. But neither of these seem to fit well to me. I can't really put my finger on it, but it just doesn't seem right...
And his comments about the "superteam" of people around the druid ... there are a lot of classes that could fall into this. Possibilities include the Shaman, Witch, Summoner, Elementalist, Totemist, & even the Barbarian in some ways. Obviously the PHB2 won't include all of these, or even possibly any of them, but it seems like there might be a couple in there.
Anyways, those are just some thoughts I had. In case anyone wants to listen to the interview, here is the link.
It's also been confirmed that races detailed in any campaign settings Player's Guide or in a PHB won't be repeated in another source (though we may see extra features for those races elsewhere).
I'd love to see the source for this, if anyone knows where it was originally said.
Regardless, it seems likely we'll see at least 4 different types of Genasi (as was the case in 3rd edition), so there could be different types of Genasi in the two books, rather than reprinting anything.
.... If you like playing strikers, but want a kind of maybe a different flavored striker - a guy who is maybe a little more deadly and dangerous kind of guy. Not like a rogue, but sort of a killer guy in a different way. There'll be a class a little bit like that, but with some interesting flavor. ....
.... The only classes above I could see filling the striker role he mentioned would be maybe a type of barbarian/berserker or maybe the soulknife. But neither of these seem to fit well to me. I can't really put my finger on it, but it just doesn't seem right... ....
Oddly enough, this screamed Assassin class to me.
Too bad their isn't an "A" on the list.
[indent]
While technically correct, its a bit of a coincidence (IMO) that we were given 5 letters to begin with and then were later given another 5 letters if we were only given letters from 4 races the second time.
The speaker rattled off a few letters and then spit out "one of them ends with an R". All technicality aside, any coincidence/correlation made as to where that R falls is the listener reading between lines he himself has created.[/indent]
thaX:
[indent]
S Soulknife (Psi) This will be the Physic Warrior along with the Soulknife. The name Soulknife is just too cool not to have back again.
Given that the future [Ki] power source has been defined as power wrought from one's soul, I doubt that the Soulknife (should he ever make print) will be a [Psionic] class.[/indent]
jpatykowski:
[indent]
So if there are things like y'know maybe you wanted to play a cleric, but be a bit more on the spellcastery side.
This part of the interview led me to believe that T is Theurge, but that musing was discredited by the "completely and utterly new to D&D" thing.And his comments about the "superteam" of people around the druid ... there are a lot of classes that could fall into this. Possibilities include the Shaman, Witch, Summoner, Elementalist, Totemist, & even the Barbarian in some ways. Obviously the PHB2 won't include all of these, or even possibly any of them, but it seems like there might be a couple in there.
All real-world definitions/historical implications aside, I find that a Witch class would be best served with treatment relative to that of the Warlock; fantastical, with hexes/curses, mysterious, dark, etc. As an example, the Witches of Rashemen should not suddenly wield [Primal] power like that of Druids. I'm still partial to [Shadow] for some reason.
So when are Drow being released as a playable race? I must have missed it somewhere ..... because with the release of FR this summer/fall, it seems logical to me that if the Drow weren't playable as a race yet, they would definately be in the PHB2.
Hi!
Well, maybe I'm wrong on this one, but aren't there Drow in the MM on page 276? (Even though as a monster race which may be used for player characters)
"Diamond soul"
"Iron Fist"
"Wrestler" (I remember they wanted to make them no-oriental types of monks...or somethign like that xD).
"Shura" (Shura means fighting or carnage on the battlefield)
I want my monk T_T
"Shura" (Shura means fighting or carnage on the battlefield)
if by Shura kind of monks you means like in the later Fist of the North Star/Hokuto no Ken.... HELL YEAH!!!
The part above about clerics that are more "spellcastery" doesn't really seem to fit into any of the guesses above.
Sounds like a version of the Archivist from Heroes of Horror, a class that to me has a 4E Leader/Controller feel to it already. To bad there's not an "A" on the list.
it is likely they will get a name change
To be quite frank, the playable race write ups in the MM are not the same as an PHB or Player Guide race for players. Never was before, won't be now. The Savage Species book made up more problems than it was worth in the previous edition, and forget playing a race with additional HD in addition to the LA.
The Gnome is a lock in the new PHB2.
If the Gnome is in PHBII I'll eat a moldy old boot.
If the Gnome is in PHBII I'll eat a moldy old boot.
It'll go down a lot easier if you boil it first.
They also printed Warforged in the MM and it didn't stop them from putting together a 'player's version' in Dragon (or was it Dungeon?) pdf.
True. (I can't remember which one either). They could be printing all the flavour for Gnomes, which wasn't something I'd considered when I typed my last post.
[indent]
Well, maybe I'm wrong on this one, but aren't there Drow in the MM on page 276? (Even though as a monster race which may be used for player characters)
As has been previously stated, all of the PHB races are included in the MM. It can be inferred that inclusion in the MM is not indicative of exclusion from PHB2.
Drow are a very popular PC race, and PHB treatment of them would do the characters of many players justice. It occurs to me that they were not in the first PHB solely because there were effectively 2 1/2 "elven" races already listed.[/indent]
Bilkhir:
[indent]
I want my monk T_T
It is more than likely that you will have to wait for the [Ki] power source to make its debut before you are gifted with a 4E Monk.
Sadly, I highly doubt [Ki] will be presented in PHB2.[/indent]
True Archon:
[indent]
Oddly enough, this screamed Assassin class to me.
Me too! It is very curious that there is no A.[/indent]
jpatykowski:
[indent]
And his comments about the "superteam" of people around the druid ... there are a lot of classes that could fall into this. Possibilities include the Shaman, Witch, Summoner, Elementalist, Totemist, & even the Barbarian in some ways. Obviously the PHB2 won't include all of these, or even possibly any of them, but it seems like there might be a couple in there.
I hope that, if it were to be presented, the Witch is not a [Primal] hero. All real-life/historical definitions aside, the Witch would be better served in D&D if addressed like the Warlock; stereotypical, mysterious, hexes/curses, etc. As an example, the Witches of Rashemen should not now be wielding power akin to Druids.[/indent]
the shadow power source could end up in the frcg.
the ki source could end up in the phb2, the primal source is rumored to be.
You say this in jest, right? I hadn't heard about anything beyond Eberron besides wild speculation and rampant dreaming. :P
It's wild speculation, although I read that there were a lot of settings on the list to 'at least take a look at maybe'. I never actually played Al Qadim (started with 3e), but I got intrigued when Ari Marmell was reminiscing about it over on ENWorld.
[indent]
dont be to sure about whats in the phb2 on its power sources.
the shadow power source could end up in the frcg.
the ki source could end up in the phb2, the primordial source is rumored to be.
Given the list:[indent]B
B
D
I
S
S
T
W[/indent]Expounding upon the list with developer sneaks:[indent]B Barbarian (Primal Defender)
B Bard (Arcane Leader)
D Druid (Primal Hybrid)
I
S Shaman (Primal Leader)
S Sorcerer (Arcane Controller)
T
W[/indent]It is safe to assume that we are all but guaranteed the release of the [Primal] power source in PHB2.
As for [Shadow], one cannot be so sure. Though I did not claim it was going to make PHB2 print, I merely speculated. I do stand by my assertion that [Ki] will not make its debut in PHB2 based upon what I've gathered from all of the developer interviews, discussions, articles, blogs, etc.[/indent]
sfdragon:
[indent]Given the list:[indent]B
B
D
I
S
S
T
W[/indent]Expounding upon the list with developer sneaks:[indent]B Barbarian (Primal Defender)
B Bard (Arcane Leader)
D Druid (Primal Hybrid)
I
S Shaman (Primal Leader)
S Sorcerer (Arcane Controller)
T
W[/indent]It is safe to assume that we are all but guaranteed the release of the [Primal] power source in PHB2.
As for [Shadow], one cannot be so sure. Though I did not claim it was going to make PHB2 print, I merely speculated. I do stand by my assertion that [Ki] will not make its debut in PHB2 based upon what I've gathered from all of the developer interviews, discussions, articles, blogs, etc.[/indent]
I am willing to bet the remaining letters are Psionic, but it's a bet I'd gladly lose.
Although, they might fill in some Divine classes, a controller and a striker for example.
Bel
[indent]
I am willing to bet the remaining letters are Psionic, but it's a bet I'd gladly lose.
I have the exact same sentiments.
I expect [Psionic]. Hopefully 4E will present psionics in a manner that gives me a taste for the flavor. The application of the abilities should be seamless, given 4E's standard in power adjudication. I'll keep an open mind!Although, they might fill in some Divine classes, a controller and a striker for example.
I would love this!
They hinted at a more spellcaster-y priest. I don't know if the term "priest" is indicative of [Divine] or not.
Oddly enough, this screamed Assassin class to me.
Too bad their isn't an "A" on the list.
I thought of this as well, but the Shadow Assassin Paragon Path for the Rogue made me second guess this. I had also thought about the possibility of a Ninja or Lurk, but those don't seem to fit as well into the idea, & the letters don't match up...
All real-world definitions/historical implications aside, I find that a Witch class would be best served with treatment relative to that of the Warlock; fantastical, with hexes/curses, mysterious, dark, etc. As an example, the Witches of Rashemen should not suddenly wield [Primal] power like that of Druids. I'm still partial to [Shadow] for some reason.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I was just trying to bring up options. :D I think the shadow power source could offer some of the most fun and interesting character class options if they include classes like the Witch, Illusionist, & Dread Necromancer. I am eagerly looking forward to see what they come up with.
They hinted at a more spellcaster-y priest. I don't know if the term "priest" is indicative of [Divine] or not.[/list][/indent]
I would LOVE to see a Priest class. I see it as being a Divine version of the Wizard. Not a lot of martial skills, but throwing prayers and blessings all over the place. And of course bringing down the wrath of your chosen deity upon infidels. That never gets old. :D
Dragon articles are not a replacement for being included in the PHB. The class can be done in an article for an early release for those willing to pay the ransom, and be put in the PHB2 when it comes out also. One does not preclude another.
Edit-- having the Bard as a DDi exclusive will not bode well for the future of D&D. To exclude the Bard from the PHB completely (Not even putting him in the PHB3? PHB4?) would alienate even more die hard players and give the DDi a black mark as a way to charge more for content instead of being a resource. It is a dirty move and almost as bad as DRM inside of WinVista.
Some amount of content is going to be exclusive to the DDI. The whole point of the articles is to get people to go "Oooo, I want that!". They need something compeling to get people to pay $9.99 a month. Basically, the whole concept of the DDI is to charge for more content.
A bard write up is as good as anything. It isn't like you can't D&D without a Bard.
There is also the possibility that material that appears in a Dragon article could appear in a later book. A long shot I know, given that WOTC is soooooooo reluctant to publish books with reprinted material.
And his comments about the "superteam" of people around the druid ... there are a lot of classes that could fall into this. Possibilities include the Shaman, Witch, Summoner, Elementalist, Totemist, & even the Barbarian in some ways. Obviously the PHB2 won't include all of these, or even possibly any of them, but it seems like there might be a couple in there.[/b][/url]
I was thinking that the druid as we knew it in 3.5 would be split into "druids" with distinct roles and some would have different names.
One class would be a "druid" caster, maybe a controller or leader
One class would be a shapeshifter type druid, maybe a striker or tank
One class would be a beastmaster. Maybe by PHB2 they will have worked up a followers for PCs system that they like. Maybe see the return of Summon Monster spells.
I was thinking that the druid as we knew it in 3.5 would be split into "druids" with distinct roles and some would have different names.
One class would be a "druid" caster, maybe a controller or leader
This is the Shaman, confirmed to be a Primal Leader and thought (by some) to be in the PHB2
One class would be a shapeshifter type druid, maybe a striker or tank
This is what the Druid has seemed to become. Its role is Hybrid, and we have no idea what roles it will encompass.
One class would be a beastmaster. Maybe by PHB2 they will have worked up a followers for PCs system that they like. Maybe see the return of Summon Monster spells.
Unfortunately we have heard nothing about this that I know of.
Shinobi (Shadow): Giving them a little mystery, let's say for all purposes Shinobi are magically magical ninjas with mastery over shadows and explosions.
Samurai (Ki): Solely because in 4E, a fighter really does do them justice if they had to be Martial.
Sohei (Ki)
Shugenja (Divine) Divine spells with a hint of elemental powers to them.
Wu Jen (Arcane) All their spells would have to be elemental. Unless they introduced [Divine] [Shadow] [Fire] [Water] [Earth] [Air] [etc] power sources, in which you'd have a LOT of different WJ builds needing to be listed.
[indent]
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I was just trying to bring up options. I think the shadow power source could offer some of the most fun and interesting character class options if they include classes like the Witch, Illusionist, & Dread Necromancer. I am eagerly looking forward to see what they come up with.
I, too, am eagerly looking forward!
I'm usually not the type to be excited by things like [Shadow] and related themes. After brainstorming a bit about concepts, and throwing ideas around in these threads, I had a breakthrough about how cool/different/fresh the inclusion of [Shadow] would be. Some very interesting classes could be formulated from such a power source. As I said, a [Shadow Leader] had never even occurred to me until I randomly spit out Witch; then I was like "how awesome"!I would LOVE to see a Priest class. I see it as being a Divine version of the Wizard. Not a lot of martial skills, but throwing prayers and blessings all over the place. And of course bringing down the wrath of your chosen deity upon infidels. That never gets old.
Agreed! I would love something like this!
portermj:
[indent]
Some amount of content is going to be exclusive to the DDI. The whole point of the articles is to get people to go "Oooo, I want that!". They need something compeling to get people to pay $9.99 a month. Basically, the whole concept of the DDI is to charge for more content.
There will be content exclusive to DDI, but I doubt they will be foolish enough to try and contain a class with said "exclusivity". The raping/copying/ripping/torrenting capabilities of people around here would make something as sought after as a new character class available to anyone who can work a search engine. The main offer, and cost, of DDI is going to be the tools and capability to "play D&D online"; taking part in the campaigns of others, forging new gaming groups over the net, etc. The offered content of DDI will be quite comparable to what was offered in Dragon and Dungeon magazines; ideas, concepts, alternate rules, articles, build paths, items, adventures, etc.[/indent]
There will be content exclusive to DDI, but I doubt they will be foolish enough to try and contain a class with said "exclusivity". The raping/copying/ripping/torrenting capabilities of people around here would make something as sought after as a new character class available to anyone who can work a search engine.
You mean like the core rule books were availiable online in pdf form before they were in most stores? You do enough searching, you'll find anything online I'm afraid. I can't find the source, but I have heard that there will be an exclusive DDI class that won't be in any book.
The main offer, and cost, of DDI is going to be the tools and capability to "play D&D online"; taking part in the campaigns of others, forging new gaming groups over the net, etc. The offered content of DDI will be quite comparable to what was offered in Dragon and Dungeon magazines; ideas, concepts, alternate rules, articles, build paths, items, adventures, etc.
The only problem I have with DDI is that a good chunk of the content can't be used by me. WotC has decided to exclude all those who use anything other than Windows OS for much of the DDI contet. Why should I pay more for content I can't use? Sure I can use the e-magazines, but I can't play online - at least with my current system - unless I go out and buy a PC with windows, or a copy of windows and install it on my machine.
As much as I would like to support DDI, which it's not worth my money too (as explained above), I'm not expecting it to work well for WotC. There are FREE services out there that will do exactly what DDI does. Even if you can't find free ones, I'm sure there will be ones that can be bought that will do it better than the programs on DDI. I think DDI is a great idea, but I can't get behind how they [WotC] is trying to pull it off.
[indent]
You mean like the core rule books were availiable online in pdf form before they were in most stores? You do enough searching, you'll find anything online I'm afraid. I can't find the source, but I have heard that there will be an exclusive DDI class that won't be in any book.
True, the inevitable pirating will take place wether or not WOTC provides the material in digital format. It just occurs to me that such a thing would be made more simple by providing the material digitally from inception.
I would be very interested in a link to that source when you come by it again. I haven't heard anything about such a DDI offering.The only problem I have with DDI is that a good chunk of the content can't be used by me. WotC has decided to exclude all those who use anything other than Windows OS for much of the DDI contet. Why should I pay more for content I can't use? Sure I can use the e-magazines, but I can't play online - at least with my current system - unless I go out and buy a PC with windows, or a copy of windows and install it on my machine.
I'm in the same boat.
I refuse to taint my iMac with Windows!As much as I would like to support DDI, which it's not worth my money too (as explained above), I'm not expecting it to work well for WotC. There are FREE services out there that will do exactly what DDI does. Even if you can't find free ones, I'm sure there will be ones that can be bought that will do it better than the programs on DDI. I think DDI is a great idea, but I can't get behind how they [WotC] is trying to pull it off.
I'd love to support them too!
We'll just have to wait and see. I wish them all the best!
sfdragon:
W[/indent]Expounding upon the list with developer sneaks:[indent]B Barbarian (Primal Defender)
B Bard (Arcane Leader)
D Druid (Primal Hybrid)
I
S Shaman (Primal Leader)
S Sorcerer (Arcane Controller)
T
W
[/indent]It is safe to assume that we are all but guaranteed the release of the [Primal] power source in PHB2.
As for [Shadow], one cannot be so sure. Though I did not claim it was going to make PHB2 print, I merely speculated. I do stand by my assertion that [Ki] will not make its debut in PHB2 based upon what I've gathered from all of the developer interviews, discussions, articles, blogs, etc.[/indent]
Hmmm...I wonder if the additional PHBs are going to stick to strict "Power Source, Power Source, and Power Source Heroes" style, or if they will occasionally fill something out with a lone rep from another source. I personally prefer keeping it orderly.
I'm guessing we will either see something like "Arcane, Psi(onic?) and Primal Heroes":
B Barbarian (Primal Defender)
B Bard (Arcane Leader)
D Druid (Primal Hybrid)
I Unknown Primal or Unknown Psi
or
Illusionist (Psi?)
S Shaman (Primal Leader)
S Sorcerer (Arcane Controller)
T Telepath (Psi Controller?)
W Wilder (Psi Striker?)
If they want to throw in some spice they could make an Illusionist who is Psi rather than Shadow, although that seems a little less likely.
The other options with no-Psi in the PHBII would probably be to throw in another mysterious power source (Elemental, Shadow), or to go with a bit of a grab bag approach. For instance, the I or T might end up being the Invoker or Temple Priest, either of which could be the "cleric" focused on spells rather than armor and weapons.
While I'd like to see such a priest eventually, I think my first guesses are probably the best options. Round out arcane with bard and sorcerer, give a nice suite of primal, and introduce one additional power source. Although it won't be popular with many, it probably will be Psi, and probably *should* be. They really should focus on coming out with 4E versions of the old classes if they don't want to alienate veterans. A new book with Ki and Shadow, while leaving Bards and Druids waiting for PHBXIV for instance, just isn't going to be well received. If they put all the Primal and Psi in PHBII, then they could put Shadow, Elemental, and KI in PHBIII, and that would complete a book of core power source classes. Or, they could go with themes after PHBII. PHBIII "Oriental Adventures," for instance--focusing on Ki, but with others thrown in.
Those are my thoughts. I wonder if I can get a job if I guessed well enough, lol.
They BETTER be the ones with the o as the second letter. Haven't they realized just yet how popular kobolds really are in these current editions? We been barking for them an entire year ago to be thrust into phb1 before any races were announced. I don't care what anything else is. Just give us our tiny, scaley, underdogs.
[indent]
Hmmm...I wonder if the additional PHBs are going to stick to strict "Power Source, Power Source, and Power Source Heroes" style, or if they will occasionally fill something out with a lone rep from another source. I personally prefer keeping it orderly.
I'm guessing we will either see something like "Arcane, Psi(onic?) and Primal Heroes":
I proposed the same thing in an earlier post. I'm a huge fan of orderly details like that. I hope they stick to the model.While I'd like to see such a priest eventually, I think my first guesses are probably the best options. Round out arcane with bard and sorcerer, give a nice suite of primal, and introduce one additional power source. Although it won't be popular with many, it probably will be Psi, and probably *should* be. They really should focus on coming out with 4E versions of the old classes if they don't want to alienate veterans. A new book with Ki and Shadow, while leaving Bards and Druids waiting for PHBXIV for instance, just isn't going to be well received. If they put all the Primal and Psi in PHBII, then they could put Shadow, Elemental, and KI in PHBIII, and that would complete a book of core power source classes. Or, they could go with themes after PHBII. PHBIII "Oriental Adventures," for instance--focusing on Ki, but with others thrown in.
My references to a prayer-heavy cleric were inspired by the designer's statement that such a class is being explored as one of the three that are "completely and utterly new to D&D".Those are my thoughts. I wonder if I can get a job if I guessed well enough, lol.
We'll see!
dont be to sure about whats in the phb2 on its power sources.
the shadow power source could end up in the frcg.
the ki source could end up in the phb2, the primal source is rumored to be.
Power sources won't be exclusive to one book. The most new classes that would be introduced in a setting player's guide might be three, if we are lucky, and one would most defiantly be Arcane. The Bard could have the Primal power source, but I think it will stay Arcane. The Gnome is a lock in the PHB2, and I doubt that it would be included without the shadow powered Illusionist.
Some amount of content is going to be exclusive to the DDI. The whole point of the articles is to get people to go "Oooo, I want that!". They need something compeling to get people to pay $9.99 a month. Basically, the whole concept of the DDI is to charge for more content.
A bard write up is as good as anything. It isn't like you can't D&D without a Bard.
There is also the possibility that material that appears in a Dragon article could appear in a later book. A long shot I know, given that WOTC is soooooooo reluctant to publish books with reprinted material.
DDi content is not "Printed" material. It is online material on a web page. Some of it will be "printed" in collections of the most popular material, while stuff that is put out "early" like classes and races will be "printed" in the guides, like the Bard. It is hoped that the Half Orc would stay an DDi exclusive, but more than likely it will be "Printed" in the first collection that is published.
The Bard should be in a PHB, and should not have been replaced by the Warlord in the first place. The "Warlock" like patrons (donated powers instead of being stolen) is, to me, disappointing, but anything is an improvement to the 3rd edition bard.
Power sources won't be exclusive to one book. The most new classes that would be introduced in a setting player's guide might be three, if we are lucky, and one would most defiantly be Arcane. The Bard could have the Primal power source, but I think it will stay Arcane. The Gnome is a lock in the PHB2, and I doubt that it would be included without the shadow powered Illusionist.
i know, i was just saying where i though they would show up
e as 2nd letter: Centaur, Celestial, Ogre
Errr, I think you meant something other than Ogre for that one...
(Not jumping on you, just want to know what you actually meant to type.)
Sorcerer is most likely NOT one of them.
(Unless some other class has taken over the name.)
Sorcerers were just Wizard with less spells that could cast more often.
A total waste of space now.
You want to be a Sorcerer? Ok, your class is Wizard, but you use the title of Sorcerer, if anyone wants to argue, cast spells on them...
I like the option of Shaman or Spiritualist for the S, though Soulknife does seem possible.
Maybe the S was actually for Psion... (Since the P is silent, maybe they decided to not mention it, expecting us to read their minds... ;) )
Also, a viking bard was called a Skald. So there is another possibility for S.
Oh well, just random musings on too little data.:P
R could be for Ronin, but I suspect they'll hold off on the oriental stuff for it's own suppliment.
Sorcerer is most likely NOT one of them.
(Unless some other class has taken over the name.)
Sorcerers were just Wizard with less spells that could cast more often.
A total waste of space now.
You want to be a Sorcerer? Ok, your class is Wizard, but you use the title of Sorcerer, if anyone wants to argue, cast spells on them...
I like the option of Shaman or Spiritualist for the S, though Soulknife does seem possible.
Maybe the S was actually for Psion... (Since the P is silent, maybe they decided to not mention it, expecting us to read their minds... ;) )
Also, a viking bard was called a Skald. So there is another possibility for S.
Oh well, just random musings on too little data.:P
They've talked about the sorceror being more elemental based and a bit of wild mage. I suspect with that info htey'll be more an arcane striker/controller hybrid (in between warlock and wizard as far as power types) and possibly have powers that do a random type of damage (roll a die, 1=fire, 2=cold, 3=acid, 4=poison, 5=thunder, 6=force, 7=psychic, 8=lightning, for example). The Kobold article they put up recently includes a bit of this as the mage has a power where they roll a d4 to determine the damage type.
B is for Berserker, who replaces the Barbarian - a raging warrior that can fit into any culture, of which being a barbarian is one option
D is for Druid, someone with leanings towards the teaching of the wild - possibly able to shapechange
I is for.. I have no idea.
S is for Sorcerer, who can channel the primal elements
S is for shadowcaster, who uses the powers of the shadowfell to control undead and power over darkness
T is for Telekinetic, who uses the powers of telekinesis to throw enemies about the battle field
W is for Warmind, who uses psychic powers to crush their foes with psychic fervor.
This is just another post, postulating on the possibility, though not the probability of such classes, and panders to the pandemonium of posters' predilection for prognostication and paranoia.
I have to pee..
I've been playing since the early 80s and I've never seen anyone stick with a gnome for more than a few weeks.
Since 3E came out we've had more than one bard, but only one barbarian who dropped the character after a short while.
I've been playing since the early 80s and I've never seen anyone stick with a gnome for more than a few weeks.
Since 3E came out we've had more than one bard, but only one barbarian who dropped the character after a short while.
As with all things, experiences may vary. I've had several barbarians in my games over the years, and I've actually got a Gnome in a game going right now that I love playing.
I know people will try to find ways to justify why the content they want should come out sooner than the other items, but we've all got to be patient.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say I is for Inquisitor, a counterpart to the Warlord with a Shadow power-source to debuff and demoralize his enemies.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say I is for Inquisitor, a counterpart to the Warlord with a Shadow power-source to debuff and demoralize his enemies.
I'm hoping they save the Shadow power source leader for Archivist. I'm thinking a debuff type class would work better as a controller than a leader.
B is for Brawler, who replaced the monk so you don't have to be 'lawful' to punch, kick or bite someone.
B is for Berserker, who replaces the Barbarian - a raging warrior that can fit into any culture, of which being a barbarian is one option
D is for Druid, someone with leanings towards the teaching of the wild - possibly able to shapechange
I is for.. I have no idea.
S is for Sorcerer, who can channel the primal elements
S is for shadowcaster, who uses the powers of the shadowfell to control undead and power over darkness
T is for Telekinetic, who uses the powers of telekinesis to throw enemies about the battle field
W is for Warmind, who uses psychic powers to crush their foes with psychic fervor.
This is just another post, postulating on the possibility, though not the probability of such classes, and panders to the pandemonium of posters' predilection for prognostication and paranoia.
I have to pee..
B... Bard. The only reason to have a Brawler is if the Monk is never being redone. This is doubtful.
B... Berserker.
D... Druid. This is the shifter Druid, shapechangng his way through the forests.
I... Illusionist. The shadow powered class that compliments the gnome race that will be in the same book.
S... Sorcerer.
S.... Soulknife
T... Telepath.
W... Witch.
This is the same list I have done before.
I don't see a reason that the book would be limited to just two new power sources. I see Psi being the third man out instead of Shadow if it came down to it.
The only reason the Bard may be Primal is to have all new power sources in the book instead of only one class that has the old power sources.
I'm hoping they save the Shadow power source leader for Archivist. I'm thinking a debuff type class would work better as a controller than a leader.
Never said it would be a leader, just a counterpart to the Warlord.
[indent]
Sorcerer is most likely NOT one of them.
(Unless some other class has taken over the name.)
Sorcerers were just Wizard with less spells that could cast more often.
A total waste of space now.
Had you read this entire thread, and perhaps explored the linked interviews, then you would have come to the inevitable conclusion that the Sorcerer has not been made obsolete by the Wizard. Careful attention is being given to the construction of a Sorcerer that shares both the role, and power source, as the Wizard ([Arcane Controller]); while retaining his own flavor.[/indent]
thaX:
[indent]
S... Sorcerer.
S.... Soulknife
While I have no qualms about the inclusion of the Soulknife, it occurs to me that the Shaman is a guarantee. There has been much shared about his mechanics (power source, use of spirits, role, etc.). It's a pretty safe bet that one of those S's represents him.
I also don't feel that the Soulknife will be a [Psionic] hero since [Ki] has been described as power dealing with the "soul". The name Soulknife, if making the change to 4E, will probably be assigned to a [Ki] class.[/indent]
Bel
Oh well, just random musings on too little data.:P
If you want more data, check out http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=224280.
Actually, I believe they are meant to be. This edition seems to integrate the books with Dragon articles much more than previous ones, thanks to D&D Insider.
meh...
I really dislike the fact that if I want to see some cool stuff, I'd have to pay the same price for an online article as I pay for hard copies like it used to be just a year ago.
Personally, I hope the "R" is a joke for "R-tificer" :P
I would think that class would be a part of the Eberron Players Guide
The PHBII should be out in June 2009.
Bel
Amazon currently lists it for March 17th.
Amazon currently lists it for March 17th.
It's on Amazon already?
Bel
It's on Amazon already?
Bel
Its listed on the Products page as coming out in March 2009
An Arcane Power book is coming in April and an Undead Sourcebook is due in January
Its listed on the Products page as coming out in March 2009
An Arcane Power book is coming in April [ . . . ]
I was wondering when this would come. If it's coming in April, then we can be pretty sure we're getting at least a fourth arcane class (on top of the swordmage, warlock, and wizard) before then. Good find!
I was wondering when this would come. If it's coming in April, then we can be pretty sure we're getting at least a fourth arcane class (on top of the swordmage, warlock, and wizard) before then. Good find!
Perhaps the Necromancer will be a part of the January Undead book
PHB 2 Product Page
There should be an image up, if not I saved it in case they took it down later; It has a Giant of some sort to the left wielding a glass/psychic looking greataxe, and a cat-like humanoid female in red leather with two summoned feline translucent "pets" running towards the viewer on the right.
On the top is says "Arcane, Divine, and Primal Heroes".
This should put out all of that speculation about Bards not being re-released, and about Psionics, Shadow, Ki, and Elemental sourced heroes being in the PHB 2.
EDIT: With that said, Im going to make a few guesses at what we're going to be getting -
Druid (Primal Striker)
Barbarian (Primal Defender)
Witch (Primal Controller)
Shaman (Primal Leader)
Bard (Arcane Leader)
Not sure on the rest considering were looking at a Divine Controller, a Divine Striker, and an Arcane Defender spot left (although I thought this slot was taken up by the swordmage in the upcoming FR: Players Guide...)
EDIT 2: Thought I should also point out that Arcane Power has a placeholder image now too - Arcane Power Product page
[indent]
- You beat me to it!
There should be an image up, if not I saved it in case they took it down later; It has a Giant of some sort to the left wielding a glass/psychic looking greataxe, and a cat-like humanoid female in red leather with two summoned feline translucent "pets" running towards the viewer on the right.
Goliath!? He looks awesome![indent]As for the other one..[/indent]
Shifter!? Catfolk!?
And those certainly look like summons!On the top is says "Arcane, Divine. and Primal Heroes".
I love that they're sticking to the model! And that they're topping off [Arcane] and [Divine]!This should put out all of that speculation about Bards not being re-released, and about Psionics, Shadow, Ki, and Elemental sourced heroes being in the PHB 2.
It should, yes. We'll see. It'll be awhile before everyone catches up.Druid (Primal Striker)
Barbarian (Primal Defender)
Witch (Primal Controller)
Shaman (Primal Leader)
Bard (Arcane Leader)
If the Witch is included as a [Primal] class, I would prefer her to be a [Striker]. It would be a nice complement to the Warlock. Or a [Leader], if the Shaman doesn't hog the spot.
b) Animal Spirits; as the Shaman has been described as using.
c) Illusions[/indent]My guess is that they are illusions. This supports the commonly shared idea that I is for Illusionist, and supports my previously stated assumption that the Shaman is being considered one of the "completely and utterly new to D&D" classes. Judging by the web-supplement that offered some rules for running a Wizard "Illusionist", it could be safely assumed that the PHB2 Illusionist may very well be another [Arcane Controller]. The idea that the [Shadow] power source was linked to illusion was a fan generated concept after all, as no designer ever proposed/supported the idea in the first place.
This leaves [Divine Controller] and [Divine Striker]. Both of which are easily filled. The W being Witch seems highly likely. I said a few posts back (#137, #148) that the Witch didn't sit right with me as a [Primal] class. Perhaps it will be [Divine]. Which will it be though; [Striker] or [Controller]?
Interviews said that one of the classes will be a highly mobile killer who compares to the Rogue, and one will be a spell-heavy priest. The Witch doesn't occur to me as a highly mobile killer, so spell-heavy priest is all that's left. [Controller] then? [Divine Controller]?
Hmm...
I say:[indent]B Barbarian (Primal Defender)
B Bard (Arcane Leader)
D Druid (Primal Hybrid)
I Illusionist (Arcane Controller).
S Shaman (Primal Leader)
S Sorcerer (Arcane Controller)
T Something [Divine]
W Something [Divine][/indent][/indent]
meh...
I really dislike the fact that if I want to see some cool stuff, I'd have to pay the same price for an online article as I pay for hard copies like it used to be just a year ago.
Those things are only previews.
Interviews said that one of the classes will be a highly mobile killer who compares to the Rogue, and one will be a spell-heavy priest. The Witch doesn't occur to me as a highly mobile killer, so spell-heavy priest is all that's left. [Controller] then? [Divine Controller]?
Hmm...
I say:[indent]B Barbarian (Primal Defender)
B Bard (Arcane Leader)
D Druid (Primal Hybrid)
I Illusionist (Arcane Controller).
S Shaman (Primal Leader)
S Sorcerer (Arcane Controller)
T Something [Divine]
W Something [Divine][/indent][/indent]
I dont see Hyrbids, if they ever do release, coming out anytime soon. We've barely gotten a grasp on only 3 power sources and already a new role?? And for a source that is JUST being introduced? Yea.... I think the "Hybrid" role came about due too old OP fans grasping at straws, not because it would be happening anytime soon.
It does seem though that the Druid will fall within one of the 4 roles. The fact that their filling out Arcane and Divine makes it obvious that their trying to cover all 4 original roles for a power source before they ever expand farther. I personally think, considering Druids will be focusing far more on wild shaping, we will see them be some sort of striker.
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I also have to disagree with everyone who thinks Sorcerer will be Arcane too. It has been Heavily hinted at them having an elemental power source. Just doesn't make much sense considering how far open the Arcane power source is fantasy wise to pigeon hole the Sorcerer class into the Arcane power source again like it was in 3.5; especially considering how amazingly fresh sorcerer might be while having an elemental power source.
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By the way mrpopstar, I think the idea of those "summons" being animal spirits of the shaman is far more a probability than their being illusions. I just don't see the point in adding a whole NEW class based on something existing classes can already partially do quite well. Illusionist seems far more like something you should be Paragon Pathing into, not starting out as. 30 lvls of Illusion powers that are completely unique and dont intrude upon the already existing Wizard Illusion powers just seems REALLY really farfetched. I think the Illusionist is yet another byproduct of fan generated craze over that old spell school.
If I had to venture an educated guess, we'll be seeing more Illusion powers, as well as Necromantic powers in the 09' Arcane Power book, with more than likely, Paragon Paths for said powers. We'll have to wait for Martial power to see how the Power source books will be structured and how many extra powers, paths, and destinies we're likely to get for said classes in the arcane power book.
The idea that the [Shadow] power source was linked to illusion was a fan generated concept after all, as no designer ever proposed/supported the idea in the first place.
Actually, Rich Baker mentions shadow Illusionists as a possibility in this post.
Yea.... I think the "Hybrid" role came about due too old OP fans grasping at straws, not because it would be happening anytime soon.
No, the designer specifically stated the Druid was a hybrid here.
I also have to disagree with everyone who thinks Sorcerer will be Arcane too. It has been Heavily hinted at them having an elemental power source.
You have a source for these elemental hints? Because Rich Baker mentions thinking hard about "how it could occupy the same role and power source as the wizard but be a different class" here, and Christopher Perkins mentions Sorcerer as a possibility for members of the Arcane Caste in his homebrew, along with Wizard and Warlock, here.
Not to mention we've been told the Sorcerer is in PHB2 (source on ENWorld, which is down right now), and it is Arcane, Divine, and Primal heroes.
No, the designer specifically stated the Druid was a hybrid here.
You have a source for these elemental hints? Because Rich Baker mentions thinking hard about "how it could occupy the same role and power source as the wizard but be a different class" here, and Christopher Perkins mentions Sorcerer as a possibility for members of the Arcane Caste in his homebrew, along with Wizard and Warlock, here.
Not to mention we've been told the Sorcerer is in PHB2 (source on ENWorld, which is down right now), and it is Arcane, Divine, and Primal heroes.
1) On the druid comment, he definitely isn't saying that their's a whole new Role coming along with the PHB 2; he's simply saying that the Druid acts as a "hybrid". More than likely what this implies is that, similar to the Fighter, which can focus on either dishing out heavy damage with a heavy weapon or suiting up as a party tank, it's still a Martial Defender. Depending on how wild shaping works out, if anything like the old Master of Many Forms, I see the Druid playing either the role of Defender or Striker with the varying possible shapes giving the Druid the ability to act as a Defender or Striker. Or, if it's the weather magic that Druid is now more focused on, a possible Controller with the ability to focus more on wild shaping instead of just weather magic, effectively making the Druid a controller/striker.
2) I didn't know that regarding the Sorcerer. All of my Sorcerer info comes from the Races and Classes book and what they imply a Sorcerer will be like. If the Sorcerer has really been confirmed for the PHB 2, then I guess that does leave us with 2 empty slots. I still don't like that it's being pigeon holed though. I would've preferred them leave it for something a little more unknown, like the elemental power source. I mean, after all, this would make the Sorcerer the Arcane Defender, because Bard will definitely not be the Defender; and that's sorta.. well, its just odd. Oh well.
EDIT: (I still think the Witch will be the last Primal slot; and I just don't see a Witch's power source being 'divine' in any way shape or form. Also, for some reason, I can see the Witch as the Primal Warlock of sorts; in other words, being the Primal Striker.)
1) On the druid comment, he definitely isn't saying that their's a whole new Role coming along with the PHB 2; he's simply saying that the Druid acts as a "hybrid". More than likely what this implies is that, similar to the Fighter, which can focus on either dishing out heavy damage with a heavy weapon or suiting up as a party tank, it's still a Martial Defender. Depending on how wild shaping works out, if anything like the old Master of Many Forms, I see the Druid playing either the role of Defender or Striker with the varying possible shapes giving the Druid the ability to act as a Defender or Striker. Or, if it's the weather magic that Druid is now more focused on, a possible Controller with the ability to focus more on wild shaping instead of just weather magic, effectively making the Druid
I could imagine the druid shifting into animal or other forms that fulfill any of the 4 roles. An encounter power that turned him into one of a selection of creatures for the fight's duration could work quite elegantly and remain balanced.
barbarian
troubadour
druid
sorcerer
S:
Wujen
I:
Might they possibly be rolling things like shamanistic powers, druidic powers, and psionic powers into a broad "Primal" category?
Psionics has been confirmed as its own power source.
These are the confirmed power sources:
-Arcane
-Divine
-Elemental
-Ki
-Martial
-Primal
-Psionic
-Shadow
So, the PHB II is confirmed as Arcane, Divine and Primal Heroes.
I am surprised at the lack of Psionics being included, what with Eberron coming out next year. And I want my monk (Ki Striker?)!
So, my speculations:
-Bard = Arcane Leader
-Barbarian = Primal Defender
-Druid = Primal Striker (hybrid)
-Shaman = Primal Leader
-Sorcerer = Arcane Controller
As for the other 3, I guess these are the 3 that I heard will be completely new classes to D&D - maybe a Divine Striker and Controller or something and another fellow?
Psionics has been confirmed as its own power source.
These are the confirmed power sources:
-Arcane
-Divine
-Elemental
-Ki
-Martial
-Primal
-Psionic
-Shadow
So, the PHB II is confirmed as Arcane, Divine and Primal Heroes.
I am surprised at the lack of Psionics being included, what with Eberron coming out next year. And I want my monk (Ki Striker?)!
So, my speculations:
-Bard = Arcane Leader
-Barbarian = Primal Defender
-Druid = Primal Striker (hybrid)
-Shaman = Primal Leader
-Sorcerer = Arcane Controller
As for the other 3, I guess these are the 3 that I heard will be completely new classes to D&D - maybe a Divine Striker and Controller or something and another fellow?
You gotta change Sorcerer to Arcane Defender; we already have an Arcane Controller in the Wizard; remember, Wotc is trying to fill the unsupported roles per power source.
To be honest, the idea that a Sorcerer is an Arcane Defender is actually making a bit more sense to me now; Considering that they will be hard to approach due to Sorcerer's powers exuding the elements they just used; their perfect as front line "tanks" of a sort, as opponents will be wary of approaching if their opponents front line is filled with damaging arcane energy. It's a pretty unique idea. I still think it fits the elemental power source idea a bit more but w/e. This still works quite well.
On a different note, now that sfdragon mentioned Wujen, I think Wujen will be relegated to the ki power source. The Wujen always struggled to maintain it's identity with Wizards & Sorcerers in 3.5. I can easily see the Wujen becoming a sort of Ki Manipulation class, allowing for odd buffs (Skin turn to Metal for example) and leader like powers. In that way, I also see the Monk more as a Ki Defender, and the new Ninja as a Ki Striker. The Monk's abilities were more about being able to take the poisons, heal the Monk's own self, be in the front line of combat; the monk makes more sense as a Defender, where it's attunement with it's body can be put to use as a tank/dmg dealer, instead of a get in their quick, kill the target, and leave. That seems far more like the Ninja's area of expertise with it's Ki Invisibility and rogue like powers.
By the way, I see the Monk being that "DDI Only Revealed Class" that Wotc mentioned earlier. A good way to prime us for how the Ki power source will work whenever it releases. Also, I think, similarly to how the FR campaign setting will be bringing us the Swordmage, that the Eberron campaign setting will include it's own Psionic power source class in it's Player's Guide (Edit: Although now that I take a moment to think about it, it might just be Artificer).
-You gotta change Sorcerer to Arcane Defender; we already have an Arcane Controller in the Wizard; remember,
-Wotc is trying to fill the unsupported roles per power source.
-The Sorcerer has been confirmed as an Arcane Controller and the Swordmage has been confirmed as an Arcane Defender.
-The opposite, WotC has stated they are not obsessing about filling out the power source/role grid (unneeded symmetry), which I think is a good thing, as some combos can get really contrived – Martial Controller etc.
The part above about clerics that are more "spellcastery" doesn't really seem to fit into any of the guesses above. I could see a Shaman possibly filling this role, but the Shaman is likely going to use the Primal power source, or maybe even Elemental. I don't think it will be Divine.
The T could also stand for Theurge (or theurgist, or even thaumaturge!). Just a thought. Theurges are certainly cleric-like.
-The Sorcerer has been confirmed as an Arcane Controller and the Swordmage has been confirmed as an Arcane Defender.
-The opposite, WotC has stated they are not obsessing about filling out the power source/role grid (unneeded symmetry), which I think is a good thing, as some combos can get really contrived – Martial Controller etc.
I agree. Although, I do hope they at least have 2 of the roles filled for each power source. Preferably 3
I'm still hoping for a "temple priest" style of divine caster. The guy who runs the temple you go to for healing, and walks around in robes with a staff, rather than chainmail and a mace. That was always a real stretch in any edition of D&D, that in order for a priest to be able to perform magic, he/she had to train in armor and combat.
I, T, and W. I could see W as either Witch or Wu-jen. Wu-jen is different enough to fit as another arcane controller, although it might work as well as an elemental controller. That leaves us with I and T as options for the class that I'm looking for, either of which could conceivably pull it off. "Temple Priest" is highly unlikely to be the name, as no other class names that we are aware of are two words long. Invoker, Initiate, Theurge (as was mentioned), or something else.
-The Sorcerer has been confirmed as an Arcane Controller and the Swordmage has been confirmed as an Arcane Defender.
-The opposite, WotC has stated they are not obsessing about filling out the power source/role grid (unneeded symmetry), which I think is a good thing, as some combos can get really contrived – Martial Controller etc.
That sorta goes against what they said about most PC parties generally needing one of each role though...o well; its what I get for not reading ENworld for a few weeks, >_<. I also didn't know they had gotten as far as to confirm a class and it's role that we won't get for about another year or so (the Sorcerer I mean). Can anyone link me to that once ENworld is back up please?
I, T, and W. I could see W as either Witch or Wu-jen. Wu-jen is different enough to fit as another arcane controller, although it might work as well as an elemental controller. That leaves us with I and T as options for the class that I'm looking for, either of which could conceivably pull it off. "Temple Priest" is highly unlikely to be the name, as no other class names that we are aware of are two words long. Invoker, Initiate, Theurge (as was mentioned), or something else.
Well considering we have absolutely no precedent set by the Witch, I'd say it's getting ahead of yourself to say the Wujen fits the bill better than Witch. I'd be pretty disappointed if its Wujen myself, as I thought Wotc would want to change them up a bit and not cloister them into the Arcane Power Source; it would be too much like their just copy pasting old classes into 4th edition and just adding a slight twist.
I'm still hoping for a "temple priest" style of divine caster. The guy who runs the temple you go to for healing, and walks around in robes with a staff, rather than chainmail and a mace. That was always a real stretch in any edition of D&D, that in order for a priest to be able to perform magic, he/she had to train in armor and combat.
You don't need a PC class for that, anymore. Just write up a high-level Human Minion who's trained in the Heal and Religion skills, give him Rituals like Gentle Repose, Cure Disease, Raise Dead, and Remove Affliction, and bam, you're set.
I don't think the Sorcerer will come on this book... for some reason...
Regarding the Druid, to me it wouldn't be a bad thing if the Hybrid means something like having 2 different builds (much like the Ranger) and then one of the builds would let you mark enemies and do Defenders' stuff, and the other build would give you some sort of "spiking" conditional damage (like Sneak Attack, Hunter's Quarry, and Warlock's Curse) effectively turning you into a Striker.
This way you got a Class that is indeed Hybrid, but once you make your character, the path you choose determines your role.
Then, on my list:
-Druid
-Barbarian
-Bard
(These, as Mike Mearls said on GRZ, are pretty obvious)
Then:
-Shaman
-Wildmage
-T (Theurge as some people keeps pointing seems ok, I just can't see the difference from a Theurge to a Shaman)
-Illusionist (might be something else, if they deicde to keep it for the Shadow power source book).
-S (some Divine striker, Sacred-Something, Sanctified-Something, or simply something... totally new concept)
shifter type guy, which leaves him roleless. With the way everything else works out, however, I would peg him as Primal Striker.
-Barbarian. Again, with primal going in, Barbarian seems like a likely choice. I'd think Barbarian would get a work-over, picking up on his high hp and good reflex and fortitude from 3rd, and turn him into the primal defender. On the other hand, I can see him switching with the druid very easily.
-Bard. Mearls also said this class would be in. I think we can all agree that it seems likely to be a Leader, probably arcane, building off of 3rd edition.
-Wildmage. Although this might cut into the elemental power source territory, I'd go with this guy over witch. He would be the caster portion of the 3rd edition Druid. Let's put him as a controller, with entangling roots, ice slick, etc. type spells. However, I think we all agree that the W is the Primal controller.
-I I have no clue about the I. It seems like it should be the divine controller, which doesn't seem that far fetched. However, I just can't think of anything divine sounding, with an I at the beginning.
-Templar. The traditional crusader seems like it would make a good divine striker.
-Shaman. Shaman have always served as secondary leader's in groups in the real world, why not have them as leaders in DnD?
-Sorcerer. I can see a sorcerer as either a striker or a controller. If it really is in PHBII, I would put it as an Arcane Controller, as there seems to be an overabundance of striker's really.
Can anyone link me to that once ENworld is back up please?
ENWorld's back - I've got a thread with all the info on upcoming classes & races I could find, with sources, here.
[indent]
I dont see Hyrbids, if they ever do release, coming out anytime soon. We've barely gotten a grasp on only 3 power sources and already a new role?? And for a source that is JUST being introduced? Yea.... I think the "Hybrid" role came about due too old OP fans grasping at straws, not because it would be happening anytime soon.
I hadn't foreseen that anyone would misconstrue my labeling the Druid's role "Hybrid" as actually being a factual reference. I chose to state "Hybrid" because, as has been pointed out to you by Ondo, that's how the developers described it. There has been no final ruling on the explicit role in which the Druid will be categorized, so I thought it best to list [Hybrid] under the premise that all involved caught my drift.By the way mrpopstar, I think the idea of those "summons" being animal spirits of the shaman is far more a probability than their being illusions. I just don't see the point in adding a whole NEW class based on something existing classes can already partially do quite well. Illusionist seems far more like something you should be Paragon Pathing into, not starting out as. 30 lvls of Illusion powers that are completely unique and dont intrude upon the already existing Wizard Illusion powers just seems REALLY really farfetched. I think the Illusionist is yet another byproduct of fan generated craze over that old spell school.
There have been numerous mentions of a class titled "Illusionist" by developers.
Also, that could very well be a Wand in her hand; as in "Arcane Implement".If I had to venture an educated guess, we'll be seeing more Illusion powers, as well as Necromantic powers in the 09' Arcane Power book, with more than likely, Paragon Paths for said powers. We'll have to wait for Martial power to see how the Power source books will be structured and how many extra powers, paths, and destinies we're likely to get for said classes in the arcane power book.
That would be a real shame because the developers have been pumping hints about an "Illusionist" class and a "Necromancer" class.
There's bait and switch, and then there's bait and switch.Well considering we have absolutely no precedent set by the Witch, I'd say it's getting ahead of yourself to say the Wujen fits the bill better than Witch. I'd be pretty disappointed if its Wujen myself, as I thought Wotc would want to change them up a bit and not cloister them into the Arcane Power Source; it would be too much like their just copy pasting old classes into 4th edition and just adding a slight twist.
There has been no Witch presented as a formal class, but there was a Witch kit in 2E's Complete Wizard's Handbook. There was also that Witch class described in the 3XE DMG. Both are valid precedent for the Witch class as was/would have been viewed in D&D.
Ondo:
[indent]
Actually, Rich Baker mentions shadow Illusionists as a possibility in this post.
I saw this! Yet I never caught this! Thanks!
I wonder if they decided not to go that route, given that they've provided us a preview of the effects and have defined them as [Arcane]? That would stink because I liked the flavor that [Shadow] would have given the Illusionist.[/indent]
MnemonicSV:
[indent]
The T could also stand for Theurge (or theurgist, or even thaumaturge!). Just a thought. Theurges are certainly cleric-like.
I said the same thing previously. I think the Theurge would be a great 4E update![/indent]
Memnanth:
[indent]
Templar. The traditional crusader seems like it would make a good divine striker.
Ooo! Perhaps![/indent]
There have been numerous mentions of a class titled "Illusionist" by developers.
While I'm not sure the Illusionist will be in the PHB II, it definately seems like they are planning one for a release at some time. There has even been some artwork done by William O'Connor, though whether it was actual design work or not is unclear.
On a side note, O'Connor's website also has art done for a Psionic Warrior & an Artificer. Again, it's unclear what the purpose of these are for, but they are interesting to look at nonetheless...
1) I mean, after all, this would make the Sorcerer the Arcane Defender, because Bard will definitely not be the Defender; and that's sorta.. well, its just odd. Oh well.
the Swordmage is the arcane defender
-
-Templar. The traditional crusader seems like it would make a good divine striker.
I like that a lot
The cat race is Catfolk. Hehe. Go figure. Now I have to go look at the letters to see if that would fit in anywhere. :D
Nope. I guess I was meowing up the wrong tree.
There's bait and switch, and then there's bait and switch.
That statement right there is the reason that publishers are so squeamish about letting slip details about things that are not yet set in stone.
They're screwed either way. If they don't give us details, we whine until they do. And if those details, no matter how non-final they may be, don't end up in the final product exactly as was stated a year prior, we run around and yell bait-and-switch and cry about being betrayed.
3 cheers for Wikipedia!
The cat race is Catfolk. Hehe. Go figure. Now I have to go look at the letters to see if that would fit in anywhere. :D
The feline race can easily be a shifter as well.
After looking at the cover of the PHBII, I think we've nailed down the race that goes with the second letter "o". It's a Goliath.
Races- first letters Gn, second letters o, e, and h, and one has the last letter of r.
After looking at the cover of the PHBII, I think we've nailed down the race that goes with the second letter "o". It's a Goliath.
Which is pooey, still no love for us goblinoid lovers out there. Once again a stupid random creation beats out races that have existed since D&D was concieved. Damn goblin hate, they are sentient too damnit!!!
What about an Invoker? (Arcane Striker)
This would take the place of the 3.x Sorcerer 'blast em till they stop' mentality. Allowing for the sorcerer to be re-desigined as an Arcane Controller, as has already been mentioned, but also allowing for the 'blaster' type arcanist that was the sorcerer.
Just a random thought-
-TC
I just noticed they have a cover shot of the PHBII. Is it just me, or is that an Elfin Druid and a Goliath Barbarian?
I believe its a goliath barbarian and a shaman some believe its a shifter
While I'm not sure the Illusionist will be in the PHB II, it definately seems like they are planning one for a release at some time. There has even been some artwork done by William O'Connor, though whether it was actual design work or not is unclear.
On a side note, O'Connor's website also has art done for a Psionic Warrior & an Artificer. Again, it's unclear what the purpose of these are for, but they are interesting to look at nonetheless...
I haven't seen that artificer art before, but the psionic warrior has been used; notice the copyright 2006. It was the class art for the "divine mind" or some such in the XPH.
On a side note, O'Connor's website also has art done for a Psionic Warrior & an Artificer. Again, it's unclear what the purpose of these are for, but they are interesting to look at nonetheless...
Holy crap! The artificer is a mutant (or a messiah!).
3 cheers for Wikipedia!
The cat race is Catfolk. Hehe. Go figure. Now I have to go look at the letters to see if that would fit in anywhere. :D
Nope. I guess I was meowing up the wrong tree.
I would hope they get a better name if they're to be a PHB race. Perhaps their name begins with He (now that we know Goliath exists so we won't be getting Genasi in the PHB2).
The feline race can easily be a shifter as well.
It just doesn't look very Shifter-ish to me. At this stage I'm guessing its a completely new race (like Dragonborn) or a new take on an old race (like Eladrin and Tieflings).
One reason, not all, the last half-orc in my current Planescape campaign was born of a human father and orc mother, who were forbidden lovers
‘Meet me behind the chippy for a snog…’
I wonder why it doesn't occur to people that an individual half-orc could be the child of two half-orcs. IIRC, this was an explicitly stated possibility in former D&D books for half-elves, one even going so far as to state how second-generation half-elves have slightly different features than first-generation half-elves due to recessive genes that are allowed to come to the forefront (like different colored eyes or something).
I wonder why it doesn't occur to people that an individual half-orc could be the child of two half-orcs. IIRC, this was an explicitly stated possibility in former D&D books for half-elves, one even going so far as to state how second-generation half-elves have slightly different features than first-generation half-elves due to recessive genes that are allowed to come to the forefront (like different colored eyes or something).
Well in Eberron both half-elves and half-orcs have self-sustaining populations (though half-evles are more likely to have half-elf parents due to a stronger racial identity while half-orcs live in a culture that celebrates them as a bridge between humans and orcs).
Perhaps their name begins with He
Could be the new take on Aasimar... who knows, maybe they'll call them Heavenborn or somesuch? While the name is, IMO, lacking something, it could be a lot worse.
Well in Eberron both half-elves and half-orcs have self-sustaining populations (though half-evles are more likely to have half-elf parents due to a stronger racial identity while half-orcs live in a culture that celebrates them as a bridge between humans and orcs).
This is the history that I would like to keep, where **** is less likely the reason for conception, but had been the mainstay in the past. To turn Orcs into lovable teddy bears is not the way to go.
3 cheers for Wikipedia!
The cat race is Catfolk. Hehe. Go figure. Now I have to go look at the letters to see if that would fit in anywhere. :D
Nope. I guess I was meowing up the wrong tree.
Right, I've been looking at the Cover of PHB II, and I have the following observation.
The feline looking female looks EXACTLY like a female shifter from multiple pieces of artwork in 3.X Eberron. I'm 99% certain that she is a shifter. So, perhaps Shifters will be core, rather than Eberron Exclusive.
The giantish figure also looks Very Much like the Goliaths from races of stone.
I'd say about 80% likely it's goliath, maybe 20% that it's a Half-Giant, Half-Ogre, or something like that.
As others have pointed out, the goliath is holding a crystalline axe, which looks an awful lot like the crysteel weapons that they depict psychic warriors and, in Eberron, Kalishtar wielding.
Which is Odd, since Psionics don't seem to be in PHB II. Which is also odd, since they had implied they would be.
So, Odd ghostly cats? I'm thinking it's a shaman thing. I think we're going to find that one of the characters on the cover is a Shifter Shaman. That's my guess.
This is the history that I would like to keep, where **** is less likely the reason for conception, but had been the mainstay in the past. To turn Orcs into lovable teddy bears is not the way to go.
I believe in 1e or 2e **** was also the "most likely" form of conception for half-elves as well. I don't have my old books any more but I specifically remember reading that the most common reason for conception for half-elves was a male human raping a female elf (it was THAT explicit).
Half-orcs being the result (predominately) of ****.
I could go into detail about why I feel this is stupid, but I'd run up on some CoC violations.
Suffice to say, we live in a society where people create elaborate fantasies in text, image, and video of having assignations with Anthropomorphic animals, Elves, Orcs, Aliens, Tentacle beasts, and more. In a world were elves and orcs AREN'T real, a decent and prolific subset of humanity is driven by the desire to be with them carnally.
So, let's think for a second. If things like Orcs and Elves WERE real, what, would those people just not exist?
Yes, the average Human wouldn't be attracted to Orcs. The average person in our world isn't a furry either. But there are enough furries in the world to support hundreds of professionals artists, and I think (by extension) that in a world like Faerun, that there would be enough Humans and Orcs that were interested in experimenting that, growing up, everyone would know at least one half-orc, and 90% of those would NOT be the result of ****.
The giantish figure also looks Very Much like the Goliaths from races of stone.
I'd say about 80% likely it's goliath, maybe 20% that it's a Half-Giant, Half-Ogre, or something like that.
I would say its about 99.999999% a goliath
The illusionist was the gnome's favored class in 3e, and the bard was the gnome's favored class in 3.5. Also, look at the stats in the MM-- +2 Intelligence and +2 Charisma. This works perfectly, along with the other MM gnome stats, for the gnome to favor the bard and illusionist.
When they introduce gnomes, they're going to have to throw something into that bit of flavor text that reads "Play a gnome if you want..." and I cannot see WotC putting anything other than "...to be a member of a race that favors the bard, illusionist, and [??] classes."
It only makes sense that in whatever PHB the gnome is released in will be the same PHB with the Illusionist and Bard.
Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that we won't see the Barbarian-- I'm pretty confident we'll the him return in PHBII. It's possible that one or the other (Bard or Barbarian) will be renamed.
As others have pointed out, the goliath is holding a crystalline axe, which looks an awful lot like the crysteel weapons that they depict psychic warriors and, in Eberron, Kalishtar wielding.
Which is Odd, since Psionics don't seem to be in PHB II. Which is also odd, since they had implied they would be.
@ gen con multi wiizards employees said psionics would not be in PHB but right away...not to worry they were fully intergrated this time...
I WANT PSIONICS,,,,,Druid (Primal Controller)
Barbarian (Primal Defender)
Bard (Arcane Leader)
Witch (Primal Striker)
Invoker (Divine Striker)
Theurge (Divine Controller)
Shaman (Primal Leader)
Swordmage (Arcane Defender)
I have little or nothing to base these on though. Just guesses based on what has appeared in this thread.
EDIT: Replaced "Rager" with "Barbarian."
Personally, I think Sorcerer is gone... or perhaps will return as a Paragon Path.
For Eberron, the Orc societal change is for survival instead of being routed into obscurity. They haven't changed their history, but instead is conceding that the trail they had left before was not the right one.
Orcs are not Teddy Bears, and turning them into such makes them something else, something that is not... Orcs.
The most famous Half Elf is from the Dragonlance books, Tannis is his name I believe. His history did have the unfortunate past that has been referred to previously and is a major part of his reactions to others later in the books.
Illusionist have been talked about as a class. PP is not going to do it considering what has been held back for the class. I think the Shadow power source and Illusions go well together. I wonder of the Arcane part of the book may include Shadow arcane classes. Something to think about.
The Scout was already used to make the Ranger, so it is doubtful that it will return.
The Sorcerer is going to be a new class in 4th, one that uses Elemental Magics and may have Wild Mage aspects to it. The Warlock took the spot that the Sorcerer had before. (and is darker than it needed to be) It was simply a different take on the Wizard in the previous edition.
Bard is most likely a lock at this point. So is the Barbarian, whether it is called that or Berserker is the question. Druid is a given, some even saying it is already finished. It is a shifter variety, few spells, possibly have animals that can be called to help but no animal companion.
To say that only one new power source is in the PHB2 while Psi and Shadow are already creating a buzz, I have to believe that at least one other power source is there. To have the Gnome in without the Illusionist would be foolish, and the change to the Bard for the favored class in 3.5 never really felt right, partly due to the Bard having been tied to Music so heavily.
This is one of those stupid concepts that always bothers me.
Half-orcs being the result (predominately) of ****.
Have you met the D&D Orc? According to the 3.5 MM... "Alignment: Often chaotic evil"
"Orcs believe that to survive, they much conquer as much territory as possible, which puts them at odds with all intelligent beings that live near them. They are constantly warring with or preparing to war with other humanoids..."
"Orc society is patriarchal: Females are prized possessions at best and chattel at worst. Male orcs pride themselves on the number of females they own and male children they sire..."
And from the 4E MM...
"Orcs worship Gruumsh, the one-eyed god of slaughter, and are savage, bloodthirsty marauders. They plague the civilized races of the world..."
"Bloodthirsty marauders and cannibals, orcs venerate Gruumsh and thereby delight in slaughter and destruction."
What I find stupid is the utter disconnect some people have between what they think an orc is, and what an orc is. Orcs aren't going to be playing the male lead in Beauty and the Beast anytime soon. Rather, they're more likely to be playing the role of Leatherface in Texas Chainsaw Massacre. They're not the bad boy that lives down the street that the cute girl falls for. Hell, they don't live down the street as they're not allowed anywhere near civilization, and instead live in their own villages. And if they're down the street it's only because they're raiding your town. Really, unless we're talking about a specific setting which gives its orcs a wholly different culture then that presented in the core books, where does this idea of "the cuddly and misunderstood orc" come from?
Except for the odd corner case, yes, half-orcs are predominantly the result of ****.
"Alignment: Often chaotic evil"
"Orcs believe that to survive, they much conquer as much territory as possible, which puts them at odds with all intelligent beings that live near them. They are constantly warring with or preparing to war with other humanoids..."
"Orc society is patriarchal: Females are prized possessions at best and chattel at worst. Male orcs pride themselves on the number of females they own and male children they sire..."
And from the 4E MM...
"Orcs worship Gruumsh, the one-eyed god of slaughter, and are savage, bloodthirsty marauders. They plague the civilized races of the world..."
"Bloodthirsty marauders and cannibals, orcs venerate Gruumsh and thereby delight in slaughter and destruction."
What I find stupid is the utter disconnect some people have between what they think an orc is, and what an orc is. Orcs aren't going to be playing the male lead in Beauty and the Beast anytime soon. Rather, they're more likely to be playing the role of Leatherface in Texas Chainsaw Massacre. They're not the bad boy that lives down the street that the cute girl falls for. Hell, they don't live down the street as they're not allowed anywhere near civilization, and instead live in their own villages. And if they're down the street it's only because they're raiding your town. Really, unless we're talking about a specific setting which gives its orcs a wholly different culture then that presented in the core books, where does this idea of "the cuddly and misunderstood orc" come from?
Except for the odd corner case, yes, half-orcs are predominantly the result of ****.
Yes, I agree with this.
Some want to equate them with being Medevil Klingons, but they are not. Society of any kind simply is not something they make any effort to form. The Eberron story is more palatable because the Orcs are not magically changed into the Teddy Bears that everyone wants them to be, but are simply realizing that the way they had in the past was getting them nowhere.
Orcs are Orcs, not ugly humans or sympathetic Barbarians.
My current class guesses (subject to revision):
Druid (Primal Controller)
Rager (Primal Defender)
Bard (Arcane Leader)
Witch (Primal Striker)
Invoker (Divine Striker)
Theurge (Divine Controller)
Shaman (Primal Leader)
Swordmage (Arcane Defender)
That's one of the best speculations I've seen, except I would take out the Swordmage (we'll see him in the PGtF), and swap in the Sorcerer (a confirmed arcane controller class).
or the wujen killed the sorcerer and took his name
Primal
Druid (controller)
Barbarian (defender)
Incarnate (striker)
Shaman (leader)
Divine
Seer
Theurge
Arcane
Warmage
Bard
I know A is not on the list but if I am not mistaken Monks were at once called acrobats.
That would be a mistake, the monk has been a class since 1st Ed AD&D, and in the 1st Ed AD&D Unearthed Arcana they introduced the Thief-Acrobat.
"Well, the FRCG and FRPG actually anticipate the PH2 to some degree -- so there are mentions of bards, druids, gnomes, and barbarians sprinkled throughout the two FR sourcebooks. I expect that we'll have a lot more to say about that on DDi when the PH2 comes out. Likewise, when we do new races or classes in other books (a PH3, perhaps), DDi should be the place to go."
That would be a mistake, the monk has been a class since 1st Ed AD&D, and in the 1st Ed AD&D Unearthed Arcana they introduced the Thief-Acrobat.
which was much more thief than monk
Except for the odd corner case, yes, half-orcs are predominantly the result of ****.
Unless they're Eberron half-orcs ;) .
Here is a response from Rich Baker on the FR Boards. It seems to at least confirm there will be druids, bards, barbarians and gnomes in the PHB2
"Well, the FRCG and FRPG actually anticipate the PH2 to some degree -- so there are mentions of bards, druids, gnomes, and barbarians sprinkled throughout the two FR sourcebooks. I expect that we'll have a lot more to say about that on DDi when the PH2 comes out. Likewise, when we do new races or classes in other books (a PH3, perhaps), DDi should be the place to go."
and on grz it said classes not unlike the bard, barbarian and druid.
2nd the front page states only one class that starts with a "B", and yet everyone states both the barbarian and bard in their posts.....
so if im mistaken somewhere, let me know
2nd the front page states only one class that starts with a "B", and yet everyone states both the barbarian and bard in their posts.....
Mearls later said (here) that the R he stated was incorrect, and that it should be a second B.
Mearls later said (here) that the R he stated was incorrect, and that it should be a second B.
Darn, and I really wanted to play my Rard multiclass Rararian. :D
Bel
Mearls later said (here) that the R he stated was incorrect, and that it should be a second B.
many thanks
Bard
Barbarian
Druid
Ssorcerer
T
Illusionist
Wu-jen or Warmage
S(that divine caster in completedivine)
Barbarian - Primal Defender
Bard - Arcane Leader
Druid - Primal Striker
Inquisitor - Divine Striker
Shaman - Primal Controller
Sorcerer - Arcane Striker
Theurge - Divine Controller
Witch (Doctor)- Primal Leader
Bel
Tim
Unless they're Eberron half-orcs ;) .
I did say "unless we're talking about a specific setting which gives its orcs a wholly different culture then that presented in the core books". Specific settings may do things differently. In one setting, orcs might be the cultured sophisticates ruling over the land in a Romanesque empire. But orcs as found in the core books? Whole different matter.
That's one of the best speculations I've seen, except I would take out the Swordmage (we'll see him in the PGtF), and swap in the Sorcerer (a confirmed arcane controller class).
where has the sorcerer been confirmed as a controller?
where has the sorcerer been confirmed as a controller?
I wouldn't call it confirmation, but it was strongly hinted at here in Rich Baker's blog when he mentions thinking hard about how the sorcerer "could occupy the same role and power source as the wizard but be a different class".
I've compiled all the confirmed info I can find, with sources, in this post at ENWorld.
I know this may not be the best logic but I think the druid will be a controller because of spells like entangle a such and the shaman will be a striker becaues they use blowguns. I always picture them with there feather hats jumping around and blowdarting people.
Tim
Um... what the heck are you talking about? Do you know anything about shamans at all?
I don't think it has been confirmed as one power source or the other as of yet, and we already have two other arcane casters.
I keep going back to the Sorcerer having a Primal power source, and like the possibility. It would further differentiate the Sorcerer from the Wizard, and be more in line with the "wild mage" aspect of the class.
I don't think it has been confirmed as one power source or the other as of yet, and we already have two other arcane casters.
If they want to differeniate the 2 classes I hope they make the sorcerer more like the one found in Pathfinder
But the possibility of a Half Orc having the **** background, though lessened, is still there.
The possibility of a half-elf having the **** background is still there as well.
The possibility of a half-elf having the **** background is still there as well.
This thread is not about ****, or half anything, can we please drop it.
Now, I too wanted the Sorcerer to be Primal, but if it is an Arcane Controller decidedly different from the Wizard with the wild magicky action or what have you, I will still be pleased.
Barbarian - Primal Defender
Bard - Arcane Leader
Druid - Primal Striker
Inquisitor - Divine Striker
Shaman - Primal Controller
Sorcerer - Arcane Striker
Theurge - Divine Controller
Witch (Doctor)- Primal Leader
Only, I'd switch some Roles to be like:
Barbarian - Primal Striker
Druid - Primal Defender
Witch Doctor - Primal Controller
Shaman - Primal Leader
Bard, Inquisitor and Theurge sound about right.
Sorcerer as an Arcane Striker, or even Arcane Controller fits really well, but If they are only supposed to be 3 really familiar classes in PHBII (as has been stated) I'd say Bard, Barbarian and Druid take those spots... Then again, they could modify Sorcerer to be something very unlike what it used to be to differentiate it more from Wizard and consider that 'unfamiliar'. The other thought I had was Sorcerer - Arcane Defender... That would be pretty unfamiliar. :P
If they want to differeniate the 2 classes I hope they make the sorcerer more like the one found in Pathfinder
Hard - Pathfinder is 3,75.
It would be retrograde.
We all believe that "D" means "Druid" and druid has primal as a power source.
I don't believe that Barbarian is going to remain the one-trick pony of rage.
I believe it is going to be reimagined as focused on totems - one of which totems will grant the traditional rage. I also happen to believe that it will have the primal power source as well.
There are only two "W"s that we can think of "Wilder" and "Witch". We know that primal is one of the power sources in the book and it is easy to imagine that witch has the primal power source. Wilder, on the other hand, has psi as its power source. All the psi classes are likely to be in the same book. There's not enough room for them in this book. So, "Witch" seems likely.
If the book has witch (striker), druid (controller), and totem warrior (defender), then it may well have a leader class with a primal source as well. That immediately suggests to me that Shaman will be in the book.
Now, what about the other four classes? Since this is all speculation, a little more won't hurt. If primal is one of the power sources and primal is tied to fey, might the book be balanced with classes that draw their power from the shadow lands as well? If so, then "I" suggests illusionist (controller). The other "s" suggests shadow dancer (striker). That leaves "B" and "R" for leader and defender. Both classes would have to be new since we've already got our three old classes (Druid, Shaman, Illusionist). Going into the deep end of speculation at this point, "R" could mean "Revenant" (defender) (kind of a "dead man walking" character) and I have no idea what the "B" leader would be.
Presumably, the books are going to be organized such that each book focuses on some small set of power sources.
We all believe that "D" means "Druid" and druid has primal as a power source.
I don't believe that Barbarian is going to remain the one-trick pony of rage.
I believe it is going to be reimagined as focused on totems - one of which totems will grant the traditional rage. I also happen to believe that it will have the primal power source as well.
There are only two "W"s that we can think of "Wilder" and "Witch". We know that primal is one of the power sources in the book and it is easy to imagine that witch has the primal power source. Wilder, on the other hand, has psi as its power source. All the psi classes are likely to be in the same book. There's not enough room for them in this book. So, "Witch" seems likely.
If the book has witch (striker), druid (controller), and totem warrior (defender), then it may well have a leader class with a primal source as well. That immediately suggests to me that Shaman will be in the book.
Now, what about the other four classes? Since this is all speculation, a little more won't hurt. If primal is one of the power sources and primal is tied to fey, might the book be balanced with classes that draw their power from the shadow lands as well? If so, then "I" suggests illusionist (controller). The other "s" suggests shadow dancer (striker). That leaves "B" and "R" for leader and defender. Both classes would have to be new since we've already got our three old classes (Druid, Shaman, Illusionist). Going into the deep end of speculation at this point, "R" could mean "Revenant" (defender) (kind of a "dead man walking" character) and I have no idea what the "B" leader would be.
Well unless they change things we DO know that PHB2 will be about arcane, divine, and primal power sources based on the cover art they have up right now.
Druid and Barbarian (I honestly hope it stays that) are definitely primal. Sorceror has apparnetly been confirmed arcane though I think it'd fit elemental or primal as well depending on how the power sources are described.
It's been all but confirmed beyond a doubt that druid, barbarian, and bard will be in PHB2. We know now that Artificer is coming in the Eberron Player's Guide.
The letters you used are outdated. Mearls made two corrections about the classes: it's 2 b's and no r's and that it was 5 old classes and 3 new classes/concepts rather than the other way around.
Well unless they change things we DO know that PHB2 will be about arcane, divine, and primal power sources based on the cover art they have up right now.
Druid and Barbarian (I honestly hope it stays that) are definitely primal. Sorceror has apparnetly been confirmed arcane though I think it'd fit elemental or primal as well depending on how the power sources are described.
It's been all but confirmed beyond a doubt that druid, barbarian, and bard will be in PHB2. We know now that Artificer is coming in the Eberron Player's Guide.
The letters you used are outdated. Mearls made two corrections about the classes: it's 2 b's and no r's and that it was 5 old classes and 3 new classes/concepts rather than the other way around.
Can you give sources for what you wrote? I trust you understand that I can't take it at face value since anyone can pretty much post whatever they want to in here. Please don't take offense at that.
Can you give sources for what you wrote?
Sources for everything at http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?p=4175050.
Hard - Pathfinder is 3,75.
It would be retrograde.
But you could use the idea of abilities and power stemming from the bloodline be it infernal, draconic, fey, etc etc
But you could use the idea of abilities and power stemming from the bloodline be it infernal, draconic, fey, etc etc
We already have the warlock, there does not need to be a warlock2 with bloodlines instead of pacts. I am hoping for a lighter class, one that breaks though the dark aspect of the first PHB. (Warlock, Tiefling, Dragonborn and other things)
I was hoping that the "new" Sorcerer (since the Warlock took his place in the new PHB that was just released) would get away from the Draconic bloodline tripe that was tacked on the rushed class that was supposed to be an alternative to the Wizard, but instead showed just how badly hampered the Fire and Forget system truly was.
It wasn't a sorcerer most was playing, it was the freedom to choose which spells to cast without having to mem them ahead of time. It wasn't a class, it was "Wizard Lite."
I am hoping that the new Sorcerer is a truly fleshed out class that has purpose and an identity, one that doesn't include "well, my mom was a dragon" type of junk.
we DO know that PHB2 will be about arcane, divine, and primal power sources .
I've ask once before, and have to ask again.... HOW do we know PHB2 will be arcane, divine, and primal? Arcane & Divine have already been done. I can see primal, and hope for Psi, and Ki. Why would they go over a power source that has already been done, unless it's in a splatbook?
-Topher
Arcane, Divine and Primal Heroes.
Player's Handbook II cover
Bel
With a goliath and some other race on the front cover.
Yeah, the Goliath was popular, I'm sure it will have the oversized weapon action (like the Minotaur racial write up in the MM).
So, the current speculation is (see below)?
-Barbarian = Primal Defender
-Bard = Arcane Leader
-Druid = Primal Striker (hybrid)
-Inquisitor/Invoker = Divine Striker
-Shaman = Primal Leader
-Sorcerer = Arcane Controller
-Theurge = Divine Controller
-Witch = Primal Controller
So, the current speculation is (see below)?
-Barbarian = Primal Defender
-Bard = Arcane Leader
-Druid = Primal Striker (hybrid)
-Inquisitor/Invoker = Divine Striker
-Shaman = Primal Leader
-Sorcerer = Arcane Controller
-Theurge = Divine Controller
-Witch = Primal Controller
Yes! :bounce: Not every single person agrees 100%--and as acknowledged, it is speculation--but generally, yes this is the direction things seem to be leaning. I, T, & W are the more tentative predictions as far as class name goes, but the power source & role combos are fairly sticky (e.g., the divine controller might end up the "I" or "W" class, etc.).
And just for good measure, once again...
Sources for everything at http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?p=4175050. (Thanks Ondo. :D)
Ok, I still think the Sorcerer can be a Primal class.
Yeah, they may surprise us with the Sorcerer as Primal Controller. That's certainly how I personally thought it would end up until the comments about designing to the same power source as Wizards (Arcane). The way things rolled out with 4e, though, it just doesn't seem like they're into the "let's throw them off with false tips and then shock 'em" thing.
Ok, I still think the Sorcerer can be a Primal class.
I see the Sorcerer as a Primal controller, myself.
Bel
I see the Sorcerer as a Primal controller, myself.
Bel
I would personally prefer giving the Sorcerer wizard-like abilities, but making them "wild" by having the power source be the Elemental Chaos.
Of course, a Primal Sorc would add in that "wild" nature just as well, which is still better than making it Arcane. (and thus "too much like the wizard")
My expectations, Barbarian= Primal Striker, Shaman= Primal Leader, and Druids= Primal Controller (and summons will be shoehorned into being a 'control' effect and will prove worthless for any situation that's not built just for them, much like AoE damage is for wizards) There won't actually be a primal defender. Also expect to see some band aid feats designed to make multiclassing actually work for something besides to qualify for paragon paths
I really doubt the Barb is going to be a defender. They've never really been much of a tank class before and people have been #$@#$ for a str based two handed weapon using striker since 4E came out.
The thing is that the barb had the biggest HD, the most Con (because of rage), and damage reduction; all features that align with the 4E concept of the defender tough guy. It would be strange to see the barbarian getting rogue HP and less healing surges than the tanks.
There is also the quote where the devs said that teh barbarian is to the druid what the paladin is to the cleric. Sorry i dont have a link.
Barbarian fits Defender to most of us because they are a front of the line character. All of those types of characters ended up being so. I would not mind if they expand upon the hybrid role more and make many of the primal classes hybrid roles (barbarian could be defender/striker), but then again I would have prefered if the classes had been made a little more WoWesque and had different options for what role they fill.
A phrase i never thought i would see on these boards. You sir, are a man of courage. ;)
Races and Classes mentioned a class called a swordmage.
They also discussed Bards, Barbarians, Druids and Sorcerers, so I think those are safe bets.
Someone on another thread mentioned playtesting something for WotC that included pregenerated characters, one of which was a dwarven swordmage, which is an arcane defender.
All evidence seems to point that the 2nd "S" is swordmage.
Where do you all keep getting Shaman from?
Races and Classes mentioned a class called a swordmage.
We're aware. Swordmage is a class that will be in the FR player's guide, and it will not be reprinted in the PHB2.
As for the Shaman, it was meantioned in an article about class roles as a possible leader.
"Only three or so are familiar, others are all new to D&D."-quote
D- druid is likely
R- could be Rager (barbarian) or Reaver. Or something very new
B- bard (I hope) but could be barbarian
W- could be Warbard. Or witch (for Shadar Kai) Or, again, something new
I- Illusionist or Inquisiter maybe. Or other
T- got me on this.
S- sorcerer
S- Shaman, Spirit Shamen, or other.
New races: My guess would be Goliath (by the cover), Gnome, doppleganger, Shifter or Shadar-kai, & new Aasimar. But I could be way off with doppleganger and the Aasimar.
Remember drow and Genasie get writeups in The Realms. The Ebberron book will likely have two. I'd bet Warforged and ...Shifter if Shadar-kai in PH2. Maybe Kalasthar (sp.) or dopplegangers if D in PHB2 is something else.
Yeah, the Goliath was popular, I'm sure it will have the oversized weapon action (like the Minotaur racial write up in the MM).
So, the current speculation is (see below)?
-Barbarian = Primal Defender
-Bard = Arcane Leader
-Druid = Primal Striker (hybrid)
-Inquisitor/Invoker = Divine Striker
-Shaman = Primal Leader
-Sorcerer = Arcane Controller
-Theurge = Divine Controller
-Witch = Primal Controller
Seems like a good list to me. I'd make a couple of minor changes such as putting the Druid as Primal Striker/Controller hybrid as that seems the most logical to me, striker abilities from wild shape and controller abilities from nature magic. Also I think we'll likely see more then one hybrid class, but I'm not sure what the second would be.
We're aware. Swordmage is a class that will be in the FR player's guide, and it will not be reprinted in the PHB2.
As for the Shaman, it was meantioned in an article about class roles as a possible leader.
How do you know it will not be re-printed? I thought WOTC specifically said some will re-prints.
How do you know it will not be re-printed? I thought WOTC specifically said some will re-prints.
Anything that is done in the DDi, within the web articles laughingly call magazines Dungeon and Dragon, will have a chance to be reprinted into CORE, a class or race of witch will end up in a PHB or Player's Guide for a setting. Nothing that is put in a player's guide for a setting will be reprinted in another CORE product, nor will anything printed in a PHB.
Kender, for example, will only ever be in a Dragonlance Player's Guide. A write up may be done within the electronic farce called Dragon at some point, but only will ever be in the CORE product of the Player's Guide.
Classes- First letters D, R, B, W, I, T, S, S
"Only three or so are familiar, others are all new to D&D."-quote
D- druid is likely
R- could be Rager (barbarian) or Reaver. Or something very new
B- bard (I hope) but could be barbarian
W- could be Warbard. Or witch (for Shadar Kai) Or, again, something new
I- Illusionist or Inquisiter maybe. Or other
T- got me on this.
S- sorcerer
S- Shaman, Spirit Shamen, or other.
New races: My guess would be Goliath (by the cover), Gnome, doppleganger, Shifter or Shadar-kai, & new Aasimar. But I could be way off with doppleganger and the Aasimar.
Remember drow and Genasie get writeups in The Realms. The Ebberron book will likely have two. I'd bet Warforged and ...Shifter if Shadar-kai in PH2. Maybe Kalasthar (sp.) or dopplegangers if D in PHB2 is something else.
Mike Mearls corrected himself later by saying there were supposed to be two 'B's' no 'R' and three new classes and five returning.
Bel
Mike Mearls corrected himself later by saying there were supposed to be two 'B's' no 'R' and three new classes and five returning.
Bel
I heard about the first part, but when did he say the bolded part?
And the posts from his blog about the changes.
At the Seattle game day event, I did an interview with Gamer Radio Zero and was asked about the classes in the PH 2. It was a long, hectic day, and I had very little sleep, so I managed to get some of the initials wrong. Anyway, here are the correct ones:
B
B
D
I
S
S
T
W
There is no R class. I have no idea how my brain inserted that letter into the sequence.
You said some of these have never been seen in D&D before? Not even 1ed? How many are familiar, and how many are new? I figure 4 of them (at the least) are old favorites, but knowing how many we haven't seen before would help in the pointless speculation.
Three are completely and utterly new. The rest are either classes or old concepts revisited.
Bel
But the possibility of a Half Orc having the **** background, though lessened, is still there. The Orc Society isn't completely changed from one Orc to the other, there are some that want "the old ways."
Orcs and half-orcs were never teddy bears in my campaigns. The majority of half-orcs were the result of ****. I just left open the opportunity of other possibilities (two half-orc parents for example) rather than railroad my players.
That said, the majority of half-elves in my games were usually the result of ****, as well. /shrug
my guess would be ...
D- Druid (returning)
B- Barbarian (returning)
B- Bard (returning)
W- Witch (new) or Witchhunter (new) [watch-out spellcasters =) ]
I- Inquisitor (new) [which technically probably is a witch hunter actually]
T- Thief-Acrobat? (returning)
S- Sorcerer (returning)
S- Shaman (new) [a nature based shaman]
B
B
D
I
S
S
T
W
only three are supposed to be returning, so i'm gonna guess.....
bard *cus otherwise there'd be riots*
sorcerer*cus i've already seen some ability info(could have been fake tho)*
either
Divine mine*psionic religion based from complete*
or
Wilder*psion without the discipline(psionic sorc)*
or wu jin(doubt it)
new one possibilities
B
D/W
I
S
T
i'm thinking...
samurai*they wont get away with no full melee*
intellect somthing or another*psionic beginning with a form of the word intelligent*
tinkerer*what any self respecting gnome would be doing*
Doom bringer*shadow, anti warlord or new anti pali*
or
bladed palm, maybe?*guess**new monk*
wildling*more brute like druid*
i ignored barbarian for a reason, their are no real barbarian inclined races at the moment, and i'm sure they could make something better than it anyway.
and, to answer someones earlier questions*like page 1...*
something of the elemental power source would be something like a wu jin who, unlike wizards who had necromancy and conjuration for subtypes in their magic, and things like wood and water.
There has been much discussion of a Shaman(Primal Controller?...or Leader?)
The Second "S" my guess would be Sorcerer(we already have 2 martial strikers, why not 2 arcane controllers?)
My guess is that the I is Illusionist. Not that previous incarnations of the game have any bearing but...Since the Gnomes are coming back in the FR books, the 3.0 Gnome favored class was Illusionist, it was changed to Bard in 3.5
I don't think you'll see Inquisitor because that is already a Cleric Paragon path.
Same with Thief-Acrobat. It is a paragon path (Cat-Burglar, it's opening quote is "I am the Thief-Acrobat) for the Rogue, and it was only a prestige class in 3E anyway.
The T and the W I have no Idea. I love the Idea of a Witch, tho my guess it will be in a later PHB covering shadow powered characters.
Cordially,
Arndush Forgeheart
Cleric of Moradin
-chris
samurai*they wont get away with no full melee*
.
But they have said there are no martial classes so...
But they have said there are no martial classes so...
ah, yeah, i read about that just after i posted that.
Basically, the only classes that aren't already known are the T, I, and W. I know I have no real right to ask people to stop re-guessing what we already know, but it's just giving me a headache.
Can I get an Amen here?
correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the point of forums to express opinions? everyone who is saying things that aren't "already known" are doing just that.
besides, if the only things people were saying were "already known" then their would be very little to talk about. besides there are forums like this hundreds of pages long, you can't possibly expect people to read every single post, this is about discussion, not studying other peoples responses.
most of the "already known" things that you are talking about is guess work in the first place. just because lots of people agree on it doesn't mean thats how its going to be.
correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the point of forums to express opinions? everyone who is saying things that aren't "already known" are doing just that.
besides, if the only things people were saying were "already known" then their would be very little to talk about. besides there are forums like this hundreds of pages long, you can't possibly expect people to read every single post, this is about discussion, not studying other peoples responses.
To add to this, a lot of people suspect the I is Illusionist, although I'm starting to have some doubts now that illusion powers have been released for the wizard via Dragon magazine. Although, to me it wouldn't make sense to include the gnome without some kind of illusionist class, ESPECIALLY with the forest gnome direction they've taken with the gnome in 4th edition.
To add to this, a lot of people suspect the I is Illusionist, although I'm starting to have some doubts now that illusion powers have been released for the wizard via Dragon magazine. Although, to me it wouldn't make sense to include the gnome without some kind of illusionist class, ESPECIALLY with the forest gnome direction they've taken with the gnome in 4th edition.
that was my general idea for the tinkerer, but it seemed to me that gnomes would want to mess with far more than just peoples minds.
most of the "already known" things that you are talking about is guess work in the first place.
No, the "already known" things are information directly from the developers, and it's all nicely compiled at http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?p=4175050.
Speculation is fun, but informed speculation is much more interesting.
If this is correct, then we should not expect to see any Martial classes in the books. The starting letters for the classes to be included are: B, B, D, I, S, S, T, W. My bets are the breakdown will be along these lines:
Arcane:
Bard
Sorcerer
Divine:
__________
__________
Primal:
Barbarian
Druid
Shaman
__________
First, the Arcane:
We know that Bard and Sorcerer both are pretty much locks for the Arcane slots, and there are already 2 Arcane classes in the PHB, bringing the total to 4.
Second we have the Divine:
Since the PHB contains 2 classes in the Divine source, I strongly expect two of the "totally new" classes will be in the Divine Power source to bring the number of classes in this source up to 4 as well.
Finally, the Primal:
Since there would be no Martial characters in the PHB2, then the Barbarian (which seems like a dead lock) must fall under Primal (and, what is more Primal than Raging). Druids obviously fall into Primal, and from a posting by Rick Baker
Or the shaman class (we're working on one for a future product, and it includes some neat mechanisms for dealing with nature spirits).
the Shaman would fall in well here too, giving us 3 classes for the "new power source on the block." If you look at the cover art on the book, you can also see 2 spectral panthers (or other large cats) on either side of the character in the foreground, lending support to the Shaman being included. Finally, I think the other "completely new" classes will be found here to round out all sources to date to 4 classes.
What do I, T, and W stand for? Not really sure, to be honest. Some things I do not expect:
Illusionist - I suspect this will be a Shadow source, and will be released with Shdowdancers, Necromancers, and Ninjas (although it is possible Ninjas will be Ki source instead).
Witch - In the same post where Rich Baker mentions the Shaman, he states (speaking specifically of the Witches of Rashemen)
So I'd be inclined to say that a lot of the witches are warlocks (heh, that's kind of funny, English is a silly language) or shamans.
Now on to the Races. According to the original post
Races- first letters Gn, second letters o, e, and h, and one has the last letter of r.
I am gonna go out on a limb and suggest this represents 6 different races:
G - - - -
N - - - -
- O - - -
- E - - -
- H - - -
- - - - R
It seems that all are in agreement that the Gnome is a lock to be included in the PHB2. If this is the case, it would seem the 3.5 preferred class of Bard is going to stick as opposed to Illusionist, although maybe the Gnome will pick up Shaman as a preferred class (depending on the flavor Gnomes will have).
Looking at the cover art for the book, we also get a couple of ideas of the races to be included.
The character in the foreground definitely has animalistic features, so I think ShifteR will be one of the new races (especially since the Eberron book is not scheduled out before the PHB2). Along this same track, I would guess the CHangeling will also be included.
I would guess the other character behind is a Goliath, except for that when Rich Baker was asked in the Ask the Realms Designers thread
4) Will the races and classes introduced in the upcoming FR Player's Guide be reprinted in the PH2?
his response was
4) We don't have any plans to do that. I think they will be incorporated in the Rules Compendium, though.
Since the Goliath will be in the Forgotten Realms book, it seems unlikely it will be here. For this same reason, I do not think the "second letter E" race will be Genasi (as they will also be in the FRPG).
So far we have
Gnome
N - - - -
- O - - -
- E - - -
CHangeling
ShifteR
Since the picture of the PHB2 is not very clear, you cannot make out a lot of detail. It seems that if the character in the background is not a Goliath, it is most likely a Warforged, but this does not fit with any of the clues we have been given. However, in the PHB there are 8 classes and 8 races. The PHB2 seems to have 8 classes, but only 6 races. Possibly there are 2 more races that have not been hinted at, one of which is the Warforged.
Well, I have done enough guessing for one night.
CHangeling
I think you are way off on the changeling, Doppelgangers are already reduced to changeling power level in the new system. There is absolutely zero point in changelings anymore as the whole point was a reduced power playable doppelganger. Really what would the changeling get that's any different than doppelgangers get? Nothing. Now that said, Doppelgangers might get a full write up sometime, but changelings? No I'm sorry, but I think you are WAY off on this one.
I think you are way off on the changeling, Doppelgangers are already reduced to changeling power level in the new system. There is absolutely zero point in changelings anymore as the whole point was a reduced power playable doppelganger. Really what would the changeling get that's any different than doppelgangers get? Nothing. Now that said, Doppelgangers might get a full write up sometime, but changelings? No I'm sorry, but I think you are WAY off on this one.
never underestimate the power of role playing. even if the race itself seems useless, they know people will still use them. besides, i think that changelings could fit pretty well into primal.
Arcane:
Bard
Sorcerer
Divine:
__________
__________
Primal:
Barbarian
Druid
Shaman
__________
hm.... thats weird... i guess my source had it backwards. i read somewhere that there would only be 3 familiar classes in the book, but oh well.
hm.... thats weird... i guess my source had it backwards. i read somewhere that there would only be 3 familiar classes in the book, but oh well.
Yeah, he made a mistake, it will be 3 completely new classes – I'm thinking Inquisitor/Invoker, Theurge, and Witch or Shaman.
Though we have had Shaman classes in the past, and the Witch in the 3rd Ed DMG.
Yeah, he made a mistake, it will be 3 completely new classes – I'm thinking Inquisitor/Invoker, Theurge, and Witch or Shaman.
The Invoker is interesting, but like I stated earlier, I don't think you will see an Inquisitor class. It is already a paragon path of the Cleric class. I just don't see them making a seperate class out of an already released Cleric feature. Of course I've been wrong before.
Theurge does sound pretty cool and I like the Witch idea too. I'll be interested to see the playtests in Dragon over the next few months.
theurge was also a class, though not a base. i suppose it was mystic theurge tho.
True but you are also talking about a 3e prestige class. They have said that concepts from previous editions may be grown or used as the inspiration for a new class in 4e. What I was referring to was; I don't think they will expand and already released paragon path from 4e into a full class.
You do raise a great point in regard to the Mystic Theurge tho. From what I've heard they are preparing more of a spellcasting type cleric for the divine power source. Something a little more closely related to the 3.5 cleric than the current 4e cleric is. So the idea of the mystic theurge prestige class from 3e getting morphed into(or alteast the inspiration for) a 4e class makes alot of sense.
that gnome dude in the Friendly arm inn.
dont trust your eyes as they can be lead to deceive you...
an illusion, a trick of the mind, something there, but not there, a hallucination.
a shadow, something there but not, intangible , exists, undead. a plane of existance,
oh this is so shallow, someone tell me why you think the illusionist would use a shadow power source and not the arcane power source??
an illusion is not a shadow
-The Invoker is interesting, but like I stated earlier, I don't think you will see an Inquisitor class. It is already a paragon path of the Cleric class. I just don't see them making a seperate class out of an already released Cleric feature.
-I like the Witch idea too.
-Yeah, totally – I hear ya.
-Technically, the Witch has already been a class too: the Sorcerer variant in the 3rd Ed DMG.
You do raise a great point in regard to the Mystic Theurge tho. From what I've heard they are preparing more of a spellcasting type cleric for the divine power source. Something a little more closely related to the 3.5 cleric than the current 4e cleric is. So the idea of the mystic theurge prestige class from 3e getting morphed into(or alteast the inspiration for) a 4e class makes alot of sense.
Yeah, I'm really hoping for a Divine Controller (Theurge).
I think the Witch could make a nifty Primal Controller.
GOliath
SHifter
HAlf-orc
DopplegangeR
my guesses. I kinda hope against the half-orc. The half-stuff just isn't too interesting to me. A new aasimar race or hobgoblins would've been prefered. I thought SHadar-kai for awhile, but the shadow book makes more sence for them. Along with Necromancers and Witches.
W as a class could be War something, too. Warmage maybe. Wilder. We'll see.
As usual, I'm sure I'm off on something here.
-Yeah, totally – I hear ya.
-Technically, the Witch has already been a class too: the Sorcerer variant in the 3rd Ed DMG.
Technically the Witch is already a class.... A Warlock is a male witch!!!!:D
Leaders:
Melee, Martial: Warlord
Ranged, Martial: None
Melee, Arcane: None
Range, Arcane: None
Melee, Divine: None
Range, Divine: Cleric
Controller:
Melee, Martial: None
Ranged, Martial: None
Melee, Arcane: None
Range, Arcane: Wizard
Melee, Divine: None
Range, Divine: None
Defender:
Melee, Martial: Fighter
Ranged, Martial: None
Melee, Arcane: None
Range, Arcane: None
Melee, Divine: Paladin
Range, Divine: None
Striker:
Melee, Martial: Ranger/Rogue
Ranged, Martial: Ranger
Melee, Arcane: None
Range, Arcane: Warlock
Melee, Divine: None
Range, Divine: None
Now I could be completely off, but I think the is a good way to look at what might be coming up
That said, I do expect we'll see a Divine Striker and Divine Controller in PHB2. Normally I don't gravitate towards divine classes, but the Divine Striker is strangely attractive.
I don't think there's any point in dividing roles between melee and ranged.
That said, I do expect we'll see a Divine Striker and Divine Controller in PHB2. Normally I don't gravitate towards divine classes, but the Divine Striker is strangely attractive.
I'll tell you why you find the the idea of a divine striker appealing:
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee!"
Now.. am I the shepherd and you the tyranny of evil men, or is it the other way around?
Leaders:
Martial: Warlord
Arcane: Bard
Divine: Cleric
Primal: Shaman
Controller:
Martial:
Arcane: Wizard, Sorcerer
Divine:
Primal: Druid
Defender:
Martial: Fighter
Arcane:
Divine: Paladin
Primal: Barbarian
Striker:
Martial: Ranger, Rogue
Arcane: Warlock
Divine:
Primal:
I am guessing we are looking for a Divine Controller, Divine Striker, and Primal Striker.... seem plausible?
If you go to products and look at the 2009 D&D releases, you will see a mock up of the cover of the PHB2. IF the cover can be taken as based on true information, we can get some imporant ideas as to what is going to be in the PHB2; specifically, the cover states Arcane, Divine, and Primal heroes.
If this is correct, then we should not expect to see any Martial classes in the books. The starting letters for the classes to be included are: B, B, D, I, S, S, T, W. My bets are the breakdown will be along these lines:
Arcane:
Bard
Sorcerer
Divine:
__________
__________
Primal:
Barbarian
Druid
Shaman
__________
First, the Arcane:
We know that Bard and Sorcerer both are pretty much locks for the Arcane slots, and there are already 2 Arcane classes in the PHB, bringing the total to 4.
Second we have the Divine:
Since the PHB contains 2 classes in the Divine source, I strongly expect two of the "totally new" classes will be in the Divine Power source to bring the number of classes in this source up to 4 as well.
Finally, the Primal:
Since there would be no Martial characters in the PHB2, then the Barbarian (which seems like a dead lock) must fall under Primal (and, what is more Primal than Raging). Druids obviously fall into Primal, and from a posting by Rick Baker the Shaman would fall in well here too, giving us 3 classes for the "new power source on the block." If you look at the cover art on the book, you can also see 2 spectral panthers (or other large cats) on either side of the character in the foreground, lending support to the Shaman being included. Finally, I think the other "completely new" classes will be found here to round out all sources to date to 4 classes.
What do I, T, and W stand for? Not really sure, to be honest. Some things I do not expect:
Illusionist - I suspect this will be a Shadow source, and will be released with Shdowdancers, Necromancers, and Ninjas (although it is possible Ninjas will be Ki source instead).
Witch - In the same post where Rich Baker mentions the Shaman, he states (speaking specifically of the Witches of Rashemen)
Now on to the Races. According to the original post
I am gonna go out on a limb and suggest this represents 6 different races:
G - - - -
N - - - -
- O - - -
- E - - -
- H - - -
- - - - R
It seems that all are in agreement that the Gnome is a lock to be included in the PHB2. If this is the case, it would seem the 3.5 preferred class of Bard is going to stick as opposed to Illusionist, although maybe the Gnome will pick up Shaman as a preferred class (depending on the flavor Gnomes will have).
Looking at the cover art for the book, we also get a couple of ideas of the races to be included.
The character in the foreground definitely has animalistic features, so I think ShifteR will be one of the new races (especially since the Eberron book is not scheduled out before the PHB2). Along this same track, I would guess the CHangeling will also be included.
I would guess the other character behind is a Goliath, except for that when Rich Baker was asked in the Ask the Realms Designers thread his response was Since the Goliath will be in the Forgotten Realms book, it seems unlikely it will be here. For this same reason, I do not think the "second letter E" race will be Genasi (as they will also be in the FRPG).
So far we have
Gnome
N - - - -
- O - - -
- E - - -
CHangeling
ShifteR
Since the picture of the PHB2 is not very clear, you cannot make out a lot of detail. It seems that if the character in the background is not a Goliath, it is most likely a Warforged, but this does not fit with any of the clues we have been given. However, in the PHB there are 8 classes and 8 races. The PHB2 seems to have 8 classes, but only 6 races. Possibly there are 2 more races that have not been hinted at, one of which is the Warforged.
Well, I have done enough guessing for one night.
I don't think we'll see Changelings in the PHB2. I'm not making any connection as to why the probably inclusion of Shifters would lead one to think Changelings would also be included.
I don't remember seeing a source saying that Goliaths would be in the FR book, just that they would be REFERENCED, which actually suggests that Goliaths will be in the PHB2 rather than the FR book.
You may be right on the 2 additional races, but I'm guessing Warforged won't be reprinted (note that they've been given a full DDi write-up) for PHB2, but rather for the Ebberon book.
I don't think we'll see Changelings in the PHB2. I'm not making any connection as to why the probably inclusion of Shifters would lead one to think Changelings would also be included.
Two things, I agree changelings won't be seen because there are no changelings, they are Dopplegangers now. Secondly, as to why the 'doppleganger' would be with the shifter, the reason that there would be a connection between the two is that they are both from Eberron, the campaign setting for 2009, but while rooted in that world, they can work in others without drastically changing the world.
I don't remember seeing a source saying that Goliaths would be in the FR book, just that they would be REFERENCED, which actually suggests that Goliaths will be in the PHB2 rather than the FR book.
I agree, I haven't seen any mention either, and the fact that goliaths were popular in 3.5 and suitable for any setting, more or less, they make a great inclusion for the PHB2
You may be right on the 2 additional races, but I'm guessing Warforged won't be reprinted (note that they've been given a full DDi write-up) for PHB2, but rather for the Ebberon book.
I agree that is where the warforged will be. While you can work them into any world/setting, they do tend to shake things up a bit, not to mention not everyone likes them, so keeping them in Eberron is the best place for them. Of course, I say this as I play an warforged artificer in my friends FR game.
Leaders:
Martial: Warlord
Arcane: Bard
Divine: Cleric
Primal: Shaman
Controller:
Martial:
Arcane: Wizard, Sorcerer
Divine:
Primal:
Defender:
Martial: Fighter
Arcane:
Divine: Paladin
Primal: Barbarian
Striker:
Martial: Ranger, Rogue
Arcane: Warlock
Divine:
Primal: Druid
So we are looking for a Divine Striker, Divine Controller, and a Primal Controller (or at least, that is my best guess).
As to the Races in my previous posting, they were definitely just guesses based on the limited information at hand.
I look at Roles as a Developer aid, one that focuses classes and provides balance for the new edition. As a player, I really don't look at it much, it is not that important. As a DM, I try to have players fit into the roles to help each other and such.
I am disappointed that it seems the power sources are just Primal and the other two from the previous book. I know that there will be a lot of disappointed people out there, Psionics being delayed once again until PHB3 or PHB4, the Illusionist being pushed back while the Gnome is being put in without the class he would favor, and of course, classes that still won't be around, like the Monk.
If it wasn't for the Druid and Bard, I wouldn't even look at it when it come out next year.
If this is correct, then we should not expect to see any Martial classes in the books. The starting letters for the classes to be included are: B, B, D, I, S, S, T, W. My bets are the breakdown will be along these lines:
We've been told we'll only get "3 or so" oldies, and everything else will be new. I'm going to say that Bard and Barbarian are oldies. I'm guessing Sorcerer and Druid are going to be "much different" than their previous versions. The Druid being a shapeshifting only Striker, and the Sorcerer being a "wild-casting" Controller. (a much more uncontrolled and primal version of what we had before, different enough to not count as an oldie) I get that a lot of people expect Sorcs to be Arcane, but I PERSONALLY would like to see them as more Primal an in tune with the earth than their Arcane counterparts (the Wizard). Like, a Sorcerer is a tribal shaman who is a bit less "lead the tribe" and a bit more "hey let's set this on fire".
I would guess they said "3 or so" because they weren't sure if either us or themselves would count Druid and Sorcerer as oldies or not.
That leaves me with an I, S, T, and W for class names, assuming the previous are as-is. (meaning the Druid is actually called a Druid, and so on)
Shaman would make a neat "Primal Cleric". Leader/caster, but Primal and not Divine. And of course, with enough differences to justify their own existence.
I had an idea for another Arcane Striker. Use that "I", and call him an "Imbued". Slices and dices through the battlefield, flowing full of Arcane energies. Just as likely to shoot a lightning bolt with a sword strike as to use a touch-attack to paralyze a foe. This is the kind of guy that would be covered in glowing arcane runes. Kinda like a Monk, but less martial arts and focused ki /chi energy, and many many more "sparks".
So a T and a W, for two Divine classes. One should be a Divine Controller. I kinda like the idea of a Cleric, with less armor and leadership, and more divine spells. Lots of people refer to this as the "Priest", and I think it should be very much like a non-healing Priest that appears in World of Warcraft. (not trying to start a "D&D is/isn't WoW" flamewar, but I think that's the right idea for the Divine Controller, even if they turn out entirely different in the end) Now. there is no "P" for "Priest". And I would guess that going with "Warpriest" would confuse to much between the "Priest" class, and a Cleric with the "Warpriest" paragon path.
So yeah, I'm leaving the W as a "Warpriest". Because I can't think of anything better, really. :D
So we've got a T for a Divine Striker. He's a Templar. Plain and simple. Divine Knight. Think "Paladin", with less "protect my buddies" and more "kill him first". And while they may be religious and divine, I'd expect them to be a more ferocious warrior than the Paladin. Not "knight" like the 3.5 PHB II Knight class, but Knight like "warrior in heavy armor". He would be heavier and slower than any other Striker, but would still be one of them, instead of a Defender. Maybe he's a Striker with defender like qualities.
So the end chart is:
Show
Sorted them by power source, as my brain copes better than when they are sorted by role.
Martial:
Leader - Warlord
Striker - Ranger/Rogue
Defender - Fighter
Controller -
Arcane:
Leader - "Bard"
Striker - Warlock, "Imbued"
Defender -
Controller - Wizard
Divine:
Leader - Cleric
Striker - "Templar"
Defender - Paladin
Controller - "Priest that starts with a W, but may or may not be a Warpriest"
Primal:
Leader - "Shaman"
Striker - "Druid"
Defender - "Barbarian"
Controller - "Sorcerer"
Sorted them by power source, as my brain copes better than when they are sorted by role.
Martial:
Leader - Warlord
Striker - Ranger/Rogue
Defender - Fighter
Controller -
Arcane:
Leader - "Bard"
Striker - Warlock, "Imbued"
Defender -
Controller - Wizard
Divine:
Leader - Cleric
Striker - "Templar"
Defender - Paladin
Controller - "Priest that starts with a W, but may or may not be a Warpriest"
Primal:
Leader - "Shaman"
Striker - "Druid"
Defender - "Barbarian"
Controller - "Sorcerer"
Leaders:
Martial: Warlord
Arcane: Bard
Divine: Cleric
Primal: Witch
Controller:
Martial:
Arcane: Wizard
Divine:
Primal: Shaman
Defender:
Martial: Fighter
Arcane:
Divine: Paladin
Primal: Barbarian
Striker:
Martial: Ranger, Rogue
Arcane: Warlock, Sorcerer
Divine:
Primal: Druid
Judging from info on the Sorcerer, casts fireball and is surrounded by an aura of fire that inflicts damage on anyone attacking him, I moved him to strilker I'm also going out on a limb to say the Shaman will be a controller not a leader, with her ability to summon animal spirits as well as maybe others, wind, storms, etc, she would be better at controlling the battlefield. On the other hand a traditional Witch used her power to heal people or charm and/or curse those around her, thereby making her the perfect leader. Which leaves us with I which has multiple suggestions; I= Invoker, Inquisitor or Initiate. And T, which seems to stand for Theurge, Templar or Tempest. The only real question is which is the striker and which is the controller.
thaX;
The good thing is that with PHB II out of the way that leaves four power sources for the remaining PHB's and since there won't be alot of races being released in each (can you imagine five races per PHB?) book leaves plenty of room for new classes. The question is which power sources in which PHB. I think Psionic and Shadow for PHB III.
Bel
If you go to products and look at the 2009 D&D releases, you will see a mock up of the cover of the PHB2. IF the cover can be taken as based on true information, we can get some imporant ideas as to what is going to be in the PHB2; specifically, the cover states Arcane, Divine, and Primal heroes.
It looks like once again psionics will take a beating.
Maybe they will give them their own book.
Judging from info on the Sorcerer, casts fireball and is surrounded by an aura of fire that inflicts damage on anyone attacking him, I moved him to strilker I'm also going out on a limb to say the Shaman will be a controller not a leader, with her ability to summon animal spirits as well as maybe others, wind, storms, etc, she would be better at controlling the battlefield. On the other hand a traditional Witch used her power to heal people or charm and/or curse those around her, thereby making her the perfect leader. Which leaves us with I which has multiple suggestions; I= Invoker, Inquisitor or Initiate. And T, which seems to stand for Theurge, Templar or Tempest. The only real question is which is the striker and which is the controller.
I'm pretty sure that there was an article talking about leaders at some point(I can not remember for the life of me when) which made mention of Shamans, so I think that they are pretty much definites for the leader role. Additionally I would like to remind people that the Druid has been mentioned as being a hybrid role class(my guess is Striker/Controller).
I'm pretty sure that there was an article talking about leaders at some point(I can not remember for the life of me when) which made mention of Shamans, so I think that they are pretty much definites for the leader role. Additionally I would like to remind people that the Druid has been mentioned as being a hybrid role class(my guess is Striker/Controller).
You know, they could go with the shape-shifting only aspect of the Druid (of the many theories/ideas), and have it be a Striker/Defender. If you need a Striker, go Dire Wolf and charge into battle. If you need some Defense, shapeshift into a big Black Bear and do that.
And yeah, Shamans are like tribal-chieftains, and I think putting them as anything other than leader would require a name change to "fit" right. (it would be like giving all the rogue class abilities to a class called "warrior", and expecting us to deal with it, lol)
Thought on Psionics. I don't think they are giving them the shaft. They are refilling the core of 3.x, and intermixing new stuff to make it new and exciting. I mean, I love Psionics, but putting them in before the Druid, Barbarian, and Bard is madness. It would be like saying Psionics (which a lot of people have mixed feelings about) are more important than what used to be core.
Sure, pushing them back maybe a year and a half or two from launch seems like them getting the shaft, but putting them any sooner makes them more important than they really are. It would be like putting the Gnome in the PHB and delaying the Elf, or the Dwarf. Or putting the Clockwork Horrors in the MM before Dragons (at all).
maybe w will be a witch-doctor primal leader or control. That qwould be pretty old school.
I think that would be pretty funny, given that the witch-doctor is one of the classes in Diablo 3. Also, as we have it now, there is a tradition of player races/classes beginning with 'W' to have 'War' in them. Warlock, Warlord, Warforged...
For those that are looking at Roles. The developers have said that the complete fill out of Roles for each power source was never nor will be a goal.
I look at Roles as a Developer aid, one that focuses classes and provides balance for the new edition. As a player, I really don't look at it much, it is not that important. As a DM, I try to have players fit into the roles to help each other and such.
I am disappointed that it seems the power sources are just Primal and the other two from the previous book. I know that there will be a lot of disappointed people out there, Psionics being delayed once again until PHB3 or PHB4, the Illusionist being pushed back while the Gnome is being put in without the class he would favor, and of course, classes that still won't be around, like the Monk.
If it wasn't for the Druid and Bard, I wouldn't even look at it when it come out next year.
Don't count out the Illusionist for the PHB2 just yet. There hasn't been an official source stating that the Illusionist will use the Shadow power source. I remember reading, maybe in this thread, that WotC decided Arcane might be a better fit-- which means the Illusionist will be in the PHB2, not PHB3 or later.
Don't count out the Illusionist for the PHB2 just yet. There hasn't been an official source stating that the Illusionist will use the Shadow power source. I remember reading, maybe in this thread, that WotC decided Arcane might be a better fit-- which means the Illusionist will be in the PHB2, not PHB3 or later.
Ah, I thought Shadow was still the best bet for the Illusionist, and I was hoping that the "I" class in PHB II would be an Invoker (divine striker).
I guess we'll see!
Aren't those just a little vague? The classes could be anything! For example:
D runkard
R acist
B igamist
W ifebeater
I mposter
T ourist
T attletale
S treet Walker
(Please note; this post was made entirely in jest)
((Please note; this note was made entirely in jest))
Don't count out the Illusionist for the PHB2 just yet. There hasn't been an official source stating that the Illusionist will use the Shadow power source. I remember reading, maybe in this thread, that WotC decided Arcane might be a better fit-- which means the Illusionist will be in the PHB2, not PHB3 or later.
It would be a disappointment if it was made into Arcane, just to include it with the Gnome. The Shadow power source makes since, given the history of the Illusionist in the previous editions before 3rd.
I still think that if the Illusionist is in the PHB2, that it will still use the Shadow Power source, dispite the word on the cover.
the big dude on the cover of the phb2 is so obviously a goliath that you are on crack if you think that's not one of the races. warforged? there's another book that just might have the warforged in it. i'll give you 2 hints: its one of the campaign settings they talk about and its not faerun.
also, wilder and telepath are obviously not going to be in this book people; psionic isn't mentioned on the cover. anyone notice how bruce r. cordell is a writer on every other book that's going to come out in the next year? anyone notice that bruce r. cordell is in charge of the spellplague/abberration regions of faerun? anyone recall what bruce r. cordell wrote about over and over and over in 3rd edition? anyone notice that the psionics handbook isn't in the product listing in this year or the next?
. . .
psion is going to be the one new class in faerun, they're going to use it's lack of coverage in that setting in the past to cast it in whatever light they want to now, and to fill the new regions and suchlike with psionic stuff. psychic warrior or wilder or maybe even soulknife is going to be the new multiclass-only class in the frphb. i'd stake $50 on it. if you don't believe me, search for some non-wizards tabletop rpg stuff bruce cordell has published online. between the 3.0 psi handbook and the 3.5 xph, he printed TWO FULL BOOKS online that were not core material. both of them revised and rerevised his d20 psionics rules for use with dnd. one was called mind's eye, and i can't remember the other one's name. don't take my word for it though, just send me $50 when one of the upcoming forgotten realms articles backs me up.
that someone's blog had pointed to sorcerer as a primal or elemental class.
It's all but confirmed that the Sorcerer will be an Arcane Controller (wild magic action).
psion is going to be the one new class in faerun, they're going to use it's lack of coverage in that setting in the past to cast it in whatever light they want to now, and to fill the new regions and suchlike with psionic stuff. psychic warrior or wilder or maybe even soulknife is going to be the new multiclass-only class in the frphb. i'd stake $50 on it. if you don't believe me, search for some non-wizards tabletop rpg stuff bruce cordell has published online. between the 3.0 psi handbook and the 3.5 xph, he printed TWO FULL BOOKS online that were not core material. both of them revised and rerevised his d20 psionics rules for use with dnd. one was called mind's eye, and i can't remember the other one's name. don't take my word for it though, just send me $50 when one of the upcoming forgotten realms articles backs me up.
*buzz* Sorry wrong answer, thanks for playing though. As compensation though we have a lovely fruit basket for you. The correct answer for what ar the new classes in the Forgotten Realms Player's Handbook are Swordmage(arcane defender) and some form of Spallscar multiclass only class. Seeing as how we have had confirmation on the Swordmage being the class in there since we have been aware of the class, and we also have a rough idea of what the class will be like due to the leaks from Living Forgotten Realms, you really have no leg to stand on with this assertation.
*buzz* Sorry wrong answer, thanks for playing though. As compensation though we have a lovely fruit basket for you. The correct answer for what ar the new classes in the Forgotten Realms Player's Handbook are Swordmage(arcane defender) and some form of Spallscar multiclass only class. Seeing as how we have had confirmation on the Swordmage being the class in there since we have been aware of the class, and we also have a rough idea of what the class will be like due to the leaks from Living Forgotten Realms, you really have no leg to stand on with this assertation.
Doesn't that mean he owes you $50?
As for the Monk being renamed as a Divine Striker, it IS possible. But I would bet we'll still get a Ki Monk later. (especially considering that there is a listed Ki power source already, in the PHB) Odds are, if they do this, it will be to tide people over until the REAL Monk comes out. The Divine version wouldn't have all the original's abilities, and is more likely to be a caster type with unarmed melee abilities. (note: don't read caster as "mage", but as "can buff himself or smite enemies", much the way 3.x Paladin and Ranger were casters, but not squishy mages)
*buzz* Sorry wrong answer, thanks for playing though. As compensation though we have a lovely fruit basket for you. The correct answer for what ar the new classes in the Forgotten Realms Player's Handbook are Swordmage(arcane defender) and some form of Spallscar multiclass only class. Seeing as how we have had confirmation on the Swordmage being the class in there since we have been aware of the class, and we also have a rough idea of what the class will be like due to the leaks from Living Forgotten Realms, you really have no leg to stand on with this assertation.
Not to mention that the products page calls out Swordmage by name as the new class.
Another thought: Maybe Bard could be psionic power source this time around? They are extremely mental and it would make them a bit less overlapping with the various other caster types.
h as 2nd letter... Thri-kreen? :P
Another thought: Maybe Bard could be psionic power source this time around? They are extremely mental and it would make them a bit less overlapping with the various other caster types.
So you are saying that bards will be pushed back to PHBIII?
So you are saying that bards will be pushed back to PHBIII?
The bard I believe is confirmed for the PHB2
And here is the link to the products page I found it on:
http://ww2.wizards.com/books/Wizards/Products/?doc=218987200
The bard I believe is confirmed for the PHB2
Yeah I know, but the person was saying that the bard could be psionic and since we know there are psionics in PHBII his suggestion required one of the two confirmed facts to give. I just wanted to clarify on which one he was suggesting was wrong(incidently I'm pretty sure that an arcane bard has been confirmed also, but lets just skim over that).
Sounds to me like Shadow, Elemental, Psionics, and Ki are all taking a back seat for now...
I also, by the way expect to see [at least] one class of each role (Leader, defender, striker, controller) for each power source. Just don't ask me what a martial controller would be.
Albeit Eberron, needing it quite more, it will wait untill it's well done I guess.
According to what i can make out on the book cover for PHB II, it says "Arcane, Divine, and Primal Heroes"
Sounds to me like Shadow, Elemental, Psionics, and Ki are all taking a back seat for now...
I also, by the way expect to see [at least] one class of each role (Leader, defender, striker, controller) for each power source. Just don't ask me what a martial controller would be.
Tough cookies. They've already said they don't intend to do every role for every power source.
Though I do expect more controllers, and not all of them to be arcane, or even casterlike, with no armor and whatnot. Or at least to have a different feel from wizards (and Psions), so i'm looking forward to a Primal controller.
Which brings something else to mind. Druids. I hear they are to be a "hybrid" role. What slots do we think they will fill? I'm guessing some mix of defender and/or leader and/or controller.
Two divine; a striker and a controller of undetermined names, Theurge or Templar and Invoker or Inquisitor have all been tossed around.
Finally, four Primal classes, Druid-striker/controller, Barbarian-defender, Shaman-leader/controller and Witch-striker/leader.
The roles seperated by a / are could be either or a hybrid. It will be interesting to see what kind of previews will be forthcoming.
Bel
According to what i can make out on the book cover for PHB II, it says "Arcane, Divine, and Primal Heroes"
Sounds to me like Shadow, Elemental, Psionics, and Ki are all taking a back seat for now...
I also, by the way expect to see [at least] one class of each role (Leader, defender, striker, controller) for each power source. Just don't ask me what a martial controller would be.
Please, for the love of god, stop with the roles form. Developers have already said that they never intended to fill out all four roles for each power source. It isn't gonna happen. Get Over It.
Maybe Bard could be psionic power source this time around?
It is all but confirmed as an Arcane Leader.
Just don't ask me what a martial controller would be.
As they have stated that they are not obsessing about filling out the power source/role grid, at this point I don't think we'll ever see a Martial Controller, which in my book is a good thing, as every idea I have seen for one has been contrived.
…If one more person mentions engineer, alchemist or dragoon I will explode.
As they have stated that they are not obsessing about filling out the power source/role grid, at this point I don't think we'll ever see a Martial Controller, which in my book is a good thing, as every idea I have seen for one has been contrived.
…If one more person mentions engineer, alchemist or dragoon I will explode.
What about a Dragoon with an engineering degree that makes an alchemical spear?
Yeah I know, but the person was saying that the bard could be psionic and since we know there are psionics in PHBII his suggestion required one of the two confirmed facts to give.
There will be no psionics in PHBII. The power sources for PHBII are Arcane, Divine, and Primal.
What about a Dragoon with an engineering degree that makes an alchemical spear?
He died from the explosion...
Barbarian. Fear effects. Multitarget attacks with his axe. Using reach weapons and gaining threatended reach. There are possiblities, just remember that this is a game all about the exceptions to the rules, not the rules themselves.
There will be no psionics in PHBII. The power sources for PHBII are Arcane, Divine, and Primal.
*slaps forehead*Yes I know that was my point. That is why I said "we know there are psionics in PHBII". Am I really that unclear?
*slaps forehead*Yes I know that was my point. That is why I said "we know there are psionics in PHBII". Am I really that unclear?
LOL I hope that was deliberate or did you miss you rmistake twice? You say you know there's are NO psionics in PHBII then you twice state "we know there ARE psioncis in PHBII". You left out just 2 letters and a space but they totally changed the meaning of the sentence.
Now what setting, that we know of, that WotC has the rights to uses a ton of psionics, more so than Eberron, which comes out in 2009? Why Darksun of course. I would gladly wait another year after Eberron to get psioncs if it meant Darksun coming back.
I'm confident that Greyhawk will roll out before Darksun. I loved Darksun, but so much about what made it flavourful also lent itself to be horribly, horribly broken.
I agree that psionics is most likely for PHB3 though.
I'm confident that Greyhawk will roll out before Darksun. I loved Darksun, but so much about what made it flavourful also lent itself to be horribly, horribly broken.
I agree that psionics is most likely for PHB3 though.
I don't about that.. and I'm sure I'll get flak from what I'm about to say, but: With the first two worlds, Forgotten Realms and Eberron, is Greyhawk really needed? Aren't those aforementioned worlds, and the PoL pseudo-setting similar enough to give enough people their traditional fantasy? I say yes, and am hoping for something very different, and as much as Spelljammer and Planescape (which could conceivably be wrapped together) are interesting, Darksun is a wholly different environment, no so much as officially touched since the inception of d20, and while the past made it unbalanced as you said, there is no reason that 4e could not avoid the pitfalls, or sand traps as it were, of 2e Darksun. Psionics is going to show up, and Darksun is a prime world to wrap it all in - the world is so different that the standard fantasy staples that people, I would think, will flock to it. New players will be awed by it as they don't know the history. Old players will remember old campaigns set in the world, and most of all there are scores of additional books that can be put out to incorporate a whole slew of new and/or optional rules. Weapon durability, starvation/dehydration rules, all manner of stuff that can go in new DMG, that while almost necessary for the world of Darksun, can be used in any campaign, new playable races (for 4e anyway) for the PHB, new weapons, armour (such as chiton), the monster manual will be full of new monsters, after all Darksun has no horses so something new to ride etc, etc.
Oh, I believe that the superficial similarities of Faerun, Greyhawk and Eberron would strike a fine counterbalance with the scorched sands of Athas.
Now perhaps I should find a place to hide, before the rabid fans I have insulted by calling the worlds of Greyhawk, Eberron, and Faerun similar, band together with pitchforks and torches and burn me at the stake. The irony is that they'd all be working with a common goal, perhaps proving how similar the worlds and the fans are...
My understanding is that it was his world, originally, so it would be fitting. Restoring the gods of that world that was broken up in the new PoL generic "Background" to what they were before, and have write ups for the heroes with the books Gygax wrote.
LOL I hope that was deliberate or did you miss you rmistake twice? You say you know there's are NO psionics in PHBII then you twice state "we know there ARE psioncis in PHBII". You left out just 2 letters and a space but they totally changed the meaning of the sentence.
*rereads his posts*:embarrass Okay, let's just move away from the fact I apparently can't type anymore.
so no one has mentioned the sword sage or any of the classes from incarnum like the soul whatever they called it.
If they update Incarnum then it will be under the Ki power source. Seeing as how the Ki power source won't be until the PHBIII, I don't think too many people are thinking about those classes atm. And I really doubt the swordsage will get a direct update. *prays that there are no typos*
If we get a Martial controller, I'd like to see an Archer who is more focused on being a Controller, and less on being a Striker like the Ranger.
I feel the ranger (archer build) we have now is as close to a Martial Controller as we're going to get – they have lots of power that targets multiples foes.
I heard they (the ranger) started as a controller, but the designers didn't have a good enough bead on what constitutes a controller at the time?
Seeing as how the Ki power source won't be until the PHBIII
Maybe PHB IV, we don't know yet.
Maybe PHB IV, we don't know yet.
Considering that after the PHBII is out, the only previously core class, that I can think of at least, that will not have been released yet is the monk, I doubt that they would push the Ki power source back any further then PHBIII. Of course it is only speculation, but I think for the time being it is a fairly safe assumption.
Of course it is only speculation, but I think for the time being it is a fairly safe assumption.
Assume nothing, that's how people get fired!
Just kidding…a little. Seriously, though, I can see what you're saying, but we still have quite a few power sources to address after the PHB II – Elemental, Ki, Psionic, and Shadow, so we really have no idea which of the remaining sources will debut in the PHB III.
For some reason, the only one I feel will definitely be in the PHB III, is Psionic, but don't quote me on that.
Assume nothing, that's how people get fired!
Just kidding…a little. Seriously, though, I can see what you're saying, but we still have quite a few power sources to address after the PHB II – Elemental, Ki, Psionic, and Shadow, so we really have no idea which of the remaining sources will debut in the PHB III.
For some reason, the only one I feel will definitely be in the PHB III, is Psionic, but don't quote me on that.
*If* they stick to 8 classes/PHB, then I'd be perfectly happy to have two each for the four above power sources, especially if the Illusionist is indeed an arcane class in PHBII. If they don't print as many races in PHBII, maybe 3/3/2/2.
*If* they stick to 8 classes/PHB, then I'd be perfectly happy to have two each for the four above power sources, especially if the Illusionist is indeed an arcane class in PHBII.
The PHB II has been confirmed as only having Arcane, Divine and Primal classes – check out some of the earlier posts in this thread – some juicy tid-bits.
Sorry, I have been reading. I guess it's not all that clear that I meant "two each of the four above [Ki, Shadow, Elemental, Psionic]..." in PHBIII.
I don't think that they will be adding in four new power sources in PHBIII. I think we will be lucky if we get two new power sources in PHBIII. You have to remember that the power sources have to continue to be added in PHBs for many years.
Along with that if they added in four power sources in one book then there will be some people upset at the fact that the power source book will not be released for some but will for others. That and it seems like they want to have about four classes or so before they release a power source book.
I don't think that they will be adding in four new power sources in PHBIII. I think we will be lucky if we get two new power sources in PHBIII. You have to remember that the power sources have to continue to be added in PHBs for many years.
Along with that if they added in four power sources in one book then there will be some people upset at the fact that the power source book will not be released for some but will for others. That and it seems like they want to have about four classes or so before they release a power source book.
Have to say I disagree, but that's because I subscribe to the previously mentioned theory that they are doing these books formulaically, eg:
PHB1 - Martial (4), Arcane (2), Divine (2)
PHB2 - Primal (4), Arcane (2), Divine (2)
PHB3 - Psychic (4), Ki (2), Shadow (2)
PHB4 - Elemental (4), Ki (2), Shadow (2)
This is just a theory of course... but hopefully some credence will be given to it when the specific classes of PHB2 are revealed... or it will proved completely untrue.
Sidenote: While this would keep the classes balanced as far as the PHBs are concerned; the setting books will throw this off as Eberron and FR are adding another Arcane each...
Have to say I disagree, but that's because I subscribe to the previously mentioned theory that they are doing these books formulaically, eg:
PHB1 - Martial (4), Arcane (2), Divine (2)
PHB2 - Primal (4), Arcane (2), Divine (2)
PHB3 - Psychic (4), Ki (2), Shadow (2)
PHB4 - Elemental (4), Ki (2), Shadow (2)
This is exactly what I'm thinking/hoping.
I personally don't think bard will be an arcane leader.
I believe the Bard has been confirmed as a Leader, and an Arcane one at that.
I don't think that they will be adding in four new power sources in PHBIII. I think we will be lucky if we get two new power sources in PHBIII. You have to remember that the power sources have to continue to be added in PHBs for many years.
Along with that if they added in four power sources in one book then there will be some people upset at the fact that the power source book will not be released for some but will for others. That and it seems like they want to have about four classes or so before they release a power source book.
Absolutely agree 100%.
Yeah, like I wouldn't want the Arcane splat to come out before the Bard, Sorcerer and Swordmage hit the streets.
Originally Posted by Kalorus View Post
Have to say I disagree, but that's because I subscribe to the previously mentioned theory that they are doing these books formulaically, eg:
PHB1 - Martial (4), Arcane (2), Divine (2)
PHB2 - Primal (4), Arcane (2), Divine (2)
PHB3 - Psychic (4), Ki (2), Shadow (2)
PHB4 - Elemental (4), Ki (2), Shadow (2)
This is exactly what I'm thinking/hoping.
I think you're right, but I'd rather they just give us a smidgen of the four remainders in PHBIII, or even more than that. They should be running out of decent races to publish by then, right? Right?
Honestly, at this point I'm half sure they made up "power sources" just for a little organizational flavour. I guess they didn't like PHB: Strawberry, Chocolate and Vanilla Heroes.
They should be running out of decent races to publish by then, right? Right?
If they update/release the raptoran, I will cry.
If they update/release the raptoran, I will cry.
I agree.. If anything they should redo the old race called Aaracokra(sp).
I agree.. If anything they should redo the old race called Aaracokra(sp).
Yeah, just in time to coincide with 4th Ed Dark Sun!
Yeah, just in time to coincide with 4th Ed Dark Sun!
I'll agree (and hope) for that as well!
I agree.. If anything they should redo the old race called Aaracokra(sp).
Oh god yes! And they should line up and shoot Raptorans and Avarial Elves simply for being a poor man's (or an elf-girl's) Aarakocra.
They don't seem too keen on giving us flying PC races... did we ever find out why the Dragonborn have had their wings clipped or was the feat for that released somewhere I didn't notice... i was expecting it in Ecology of the Dragonborn.
They don't seem too keen on giving us flying PC races... did we ever find out why the Dragonborn have had their wings clipped or was the feat for that released somewhere I didn't notice
No feat that I know of, and flight in 4th Ed is a paragon level sort of thing (the wizard spell etc).
Then again, I initially liked 4e, then hated it, and now I like it again. So hopefully each and every one of you will be wrong about what the PHB II is, and so I'll be satisfied with it. Frankly, the books everyone has described so far would be terrible.
Oh, and you're not getting a flying PC race, ever. You might get a super-weak glide or something, but never flight. That's life.
I think they could do something similar with a winged race's racial power. Either make it encounter or at-will movement action. The issue with flying is that it complicates battle and makes melee harder to do unless both sides are flying. At least they do have flying combat rules in the DMG.
I believe the Bard has been confirmed as a Leader, and an Arcane one at that.
If so then that's my mistake. I've been asking about this for a little while and never have been able to get where this idea keeps coming from so I've been unsure if it's been confirmed or not.
Like Shifters; most likely primal based classes, Shaman, Druid and a martial, Ranger.
Gnome; Shaman, Sorcerer or Rogue.
And so on.
Bel
Ok, we’re looking at 8 more classes, of Arcane, Divine, and Primal power. Which is sad since I had high hopes for Psionics to be out before Eberron, particularly with that large crystal axe on the front cover.
We’re going to most likely get two more classes to round out the Arcane and Divine powers, and a host of new Primal power classes. For three that are supposed to be familar, I’m guessing Bard (Arcane Leader), Sorcerer (Primal Striker), and Druid (Primal ???).
Additionally I predict the Barbarian will be renamed Totemist (Primal Defender) and the Swordmage (Arcane Defender) mentioned in the Races and Classes book will be making an appearance though not necessarily under the same name. Alternatively the Barbarian might keep its name and the Bard might get a name change, but it is a safe bet that both will be appearing.
The final Primal class might have something to do with those spirits, though that could just as easily have something to do with the druid. At the very least it means we’ll be getting a controller other then the wizard. That leaves two Divine Classes that are a complete and total shot in the dark without a barn side chance of being correct.
As for races, shifter is a safe bet with spirit summoner on the front cover. Gnomes are also very likely since even in the Monster Manual they were described in such a way to make them appealing to possible life of adventure. Most the thread already agrees with these statements, though, so I won’t go into it.
Honestly, I’m more interested in what will be in the rest of the book. If they are only using the same amount of space as they did before for races and classes, what will the rest of the book cover? Feats, Rituals, and Equipments are a given, but what about all the space used for Combat and Skills? I certainly hope Wizard’s doesn’t disappoint.
As a final word, in prediction for the Player’s Handbook 3, I’m saying Arcane, Martial, and Psionics. We need the Artificer, we need Psionics, and there is no reason the Monk can’t be a Martial power source. Not with the stuff we see Fighters and Rogues pulling off now.
That said a Barbarian that focussed on the Totemic side of the class which was more heavilly explored in the magazines would be pretty damn cool.
Also in regards to your PHB3 comments - We're getting Artificer in Eberron and I believe Monks have been confirmed as having Soul aka Ki power source.
Fifteen pages... I hope you forgive me if I only read the first and last two.
Ok, we’re looking at 8 more classes, of Arcane, Divine, and Primal power. Which is sad since I had high hopes for Psionics to be out before Eberron, particularly with that large crystal axe on the front cover.
We’re going to most likely get two more classes to round out the Arcane and Divine powers, and a host of new Primal power classes. For three that are supposed to be familar, I’m guessing Bard (Arcane Leader), Sorcerer (Primal Striker), and Druid (Primal ???).
Additionally I predict the Barbarian will be renamed Totemist (Primal Defender) and the Swordmage (Arcane Defender) mentioned in the Races and Classes book will be making an appearance though not necessarily under the same name. Alternatively the Barbarian might keep its name and the Bard might get a name change, but it is a safe bet that both will be appearing.
The final Primal class might have something to do with those spirits, though that could just as easily have something to do with the druid. At the very least it means we’ll be getting a controller other then the wizard. That leaves two Divine Classes that are a complete and total shot in the dark without a barn side chance of being correct.
As for races, shifter is a safe bet with spirit summoner on the front cover. Gnomes are also very likely since even in the Monster Manual they were described in such a way to make them appealing to possible life of adventure. Most the thread already agrees with these statements, though, so I won’t go into it.
Honestly, I’m more interested in what will be in the rest of the book. If they are only using the same amount of space as they did before for races and classes, what will the rest of the book cover? Feats, Rituals, and Equipments are a given, but what about all the space used for Combat and Skills? I certainly hope Wizard’s doesn’t disappoint.
As a final word, in prediction for the Player’s Handbook 3, I’m saying Arcane, Martial, and Psionics. We need the Artificer, we need Psionics, and there is no reason the Monk can’t be a Martial power source. Not with the stuff we see Fighters and Rogues pulling off now.
No I am not going to forgive you for not reading all 15 pages.:P
Now to begin correcting what you missed in those 15 pages(seriously people do read all the pages, seeing the same stuff reposted time and time again is getting annoying). For starters the numbers were inversed, it is 5 returning and 3 new. Next up Sorceror is essentially confirmed as an arcane controller. Swordmage will be printed in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide under the name of Swordmage. The incorrect letter was already addressed by someone else, as was the artificer, so I think that covers every correction that needed to be made.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot. The shaman(primal leader) is almost definite for the PHB2 as it was mentioned in an article.
No I am not going to forgive you for not reading all 15 pages.:P
Now to begin correcting what you missed in those 15 pages(seriously people do read all the pages, seeing the same stuff reposted time and time again is getting annoying). For starters the numbers were inversed, it is 5 returning and 3 new. Next up Sorceror is essentially confirmed as an arcane controller. Swordmage will be printed in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide under the name of Swordmage. The incorrect letter was already addressed by someone else, as was the artificer, so I think that covers every correction that needed to be made.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot. The shaman(primal leader) is almost definite for the PHB2 as it was mentioned in an article.
While that is true, alot of those fifteen pages are exactly that, the same stuff reposted again and again. And thank you for summing up the changes so far.
Bel
...yeah, I wonder...
Do we still got a P left?
*snip*
The following is what a lot of us are currently predicting for the PHB II classes:
4 Primal classes: Barbarian (defender), Druid (striker/hybrid), Shaman (leader) and Witch (controller).
2 Arcane classes: Bard (leader) and Sorcerer (controller).
2 Divine classes: Invoker (striker) and Theurge (controller).
B - Barbarian = Primal Defender
B - Bard = Arcane Leader
D - Druid = Primal Striker (hybrid)
I - Invoker = Divine Striker
S - Shaman = Primal Leader
S - Sorcerer = Arcane Controller
T - Theurge = Divine Controller
W - Witch = Primal Controller
I only mention this because I have seen somewhere in the 15 pages of posts that people think this class will be in the PhB II
In the last pages of Wizards Presents: Races and Classes, there's a picture of a so called "Elf primal blaster", and I wonder...
...yeah, I wonder...
Do we still got a P left?
I was wondering about that, too, although I think it's safe to say that it won't be called "Primal Blaster". That guy looked like a Ranger to me, so maybe a Primal version of the Ranger?
FYI for in case someone missed it the swordmage (bladesinger) what ever other name they gave it. The class that blends magic and sword play is in the Forgotten Realms Player's handbook due out in Sept.
I only mention this because I have seen somewhere in the 15 pages of posts that people think this class will be in the PhB II
Correct. In fact, there's a preview of the class up HERE, although it's only up to level 3 and only has about half the available class powers.
The reason I say this is by taking a look at the upcoming slate of books being released. The Martial Power splatbook comes out this autumn (before PHII), and will (presumably) have more Exploits, Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies for all the Martial classes. In order for this book to include everything needed for Martial classes (without requiring the release of a Martial Power II book in a couple years) it meant that WotC had to get all the Martial classes released and out of the way right off the top in PHI.
This also helps explain why PHII is being released relatively quickly on the heels of PHI in March, rather than like in 12 months after the first one as many of us probably expected when they first mentioned publishing new Handbooks every year. This is because in order to release the next Power splatbook (Arcane Power in April), they needed to get PHII done and out the door so that all of the expected Arcane classes had been released by the time the Arcane Power splatbook hit the shelves. And just like the developers have said we shouldn't expect any more Martial classes, once PHII is come and gone we shouldn't probably expect any more Arcane classes.
What this also means is that with the release of PHII, we'd now have four power sources that were "full"... Martial, Arcane, Divine, and Primal, all of them with at least 4 classes apiece (although Arcane will actually have at least six, what with the release of Swordmage in the FR book and the Artificer in the Eberron book). With all of these power sources "finished", we'll then be able to see a full and complete Divine Power book released probably some time in like August or September, and a full and complete Primal Power book in like November or December.
By that point... we'll probably see PHIII released some time right before the end of 2009. And by releasing the power sources in 4/2/2 format (like 4 psionic, 2 ki, and 2 shadow), we'd then see a full and complete Psionic Power book released a few months after that (since all 4 psionic classes would then have been released). Finally down the road... they put out PHIV, they finish off the Shadow, Ki, and Elemental... and then those three power source books can be released as well.
This gives them a fairly solid release slate of four Player's Handbooks and eight Power books over the next three or so years. And by the time they finish that last Elemental Power book off... they can decide at that point whether to bother begin releasing Martial Power II, Arcane Power II etc. etc.
*snip*
I wholeheartedly agree with your speculations in every way.
*snip*
I wholeheartedly agree with your speculations in every way.
As do I. But I expect we'll get the Divine and Primal power books a little later than that. One of them that fall, before the PHB III. The other early '10, just after PHB III. Then they can release a Power book for the PHB III as they draw towards the launch of the PHB IV. Which of course would be followed by another Power book of a source that has been "completed" (4-classes, ish; kinda the way Arcane Power and the PHB II is going to be)
More or less the same thing you said, just spaced out a little farther. :D
In 3rd the cleric was a primary leader with some control and defender aspects. He continues that in 4th, with more control like Knights of Unyeilding Valor, but still defender options like the Warpriest path. The druid was a primary but weaker leader with better control and striker aspects (shifting). If leader bleed is expected in all divine classes than maybe striker is in primal. I can certainly see a barbarian taking on beastial aspects to strike harder. If they develop the druid similar to the cleric, I expect a leader with striker aspects, and a little control. If striker is the primary, he will be in a different role than third, and the more natural druid update would would be under a different name.
To everyone who keeps chimingthat druid will be a hybrid class, I extremely doubt that.
I believe David Noonan who has designed the class has stated it as being so.
Maybe I missed this, but is there any reason the Sorcerer couldn't end up as an Arcane Striker?
The designers have stated they want to make the Sorcerer an arcane controller, but decidedly different from the wizard (wild magic action).
The designers have stated they want to make the Sorcerer an arcane controller, but decidedly different from the wizard (wild magic action).
Ahh, ok. Thanks for the info.
Thus far we've only got one controller, and presumably we'll add a divine and primal with PHII for a total of three. Thus, what is more useful for the sorcerer... adding a sixth striker or a fourth controller? To give as many options to players as possible, I would suggest a 5-4 division of roles is much better than a 6-3.
Thus far we've only got one controller, and presumably we'll add a divine and primal with PHII
I'm hoping for Invoker and Witch, respectively.
To be honest, I think the Sorcerer is more useful on the whole as a controller, rather than a striker. We've already got two martial and one arcane striker from PHI, and we'll presumably get a divine and primal striker in PHII. So that's five total.
Thus far we've only got one controller, and presumably we'll add a divine and primal with PHII for a total of three. Thus, what is more useful for the sorcerer... adding a sixth striker or a fourth controller? To give as many options to players as possible, I would suggest a 5-4 division of roles is much better than a 6-3.
That makes perfect sense. I hadn't heard it was known as a fact that the sorcerer was a controller though, and it seemed as though the class could be built either way.
That's why no one can decide whether the barbarian or the druid will be the defender or striker (or both with seperate builds), we only assume the sorcerer is a controller based on the few comments Wyatt has made, and why people still keep supposing that psionic classes will appear in the book.
Nothing has been finalized to the general public. It's probably all finalized internally, and we can make very educated guesses on many things... but there is nothing that is a "fact" yet.
I'm hoping for Invoker and Witch, respectively.
Funny... I prefer the name "witchdoctor" myself.
To me that term seems a better fit alongside the names 'barbarian', 'druid', and 'shaman'. It also sets itself up wonderfully for the Leader role, seeing as how leaders do most of the healing and it already has the word 'doctor' in its name.
Of course that being said... the classes that cover the 'I', 'T', & 'W' initial letters from Mearls' interview will probably end up being NONE of the ideas any of us have put forth. LOL.
Funny... I prefer the name "witchdoctor" myself.
To me that term seems a better fit alongside the names 'barbarian', 'druid', and 'shaman'. It also sets itself up wonderfully for the Leader role, seeing as how leaders do most of the healing and it already has the word 'doctor' in its name.
The Shaman has been confirmed as a Leader class.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNtc4sJTdWc
I haven't really seen this linked around much, but this is the full interview with Mearls which includes some additional information about the PHB2 classes. Only part of it made it into that D&D Game Day GRZ episode.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNtc4sJTdWc
Oh, thanks. I think I saw that before, but had forgotten the info in it. So to recap what appears to be the important info:
-a more spellcastery cleric(I'd imagine the divine controller)
-different flavor striker, deadly and dangerous, but in a different way then a rogue(I want to say Inquisitor, but who knows)
-Druid is the prototypical Primal class, Primal mythos built around Druid
-a new defender
New defender = Barbarian. I can't help but think this is obvious; never in D&D's history have Barbarians been represented as "fragile" like 'glass cannons' (aka Strikers) are supposed to be. Barbarians have always been alongside Fighters, and I can't imagine why that would change.
I hope that they don't use the name "Witch". IMO, not every synonym for "mage" needs to be defined as its own class. "Witchdoctor" suggests a character much too similar to "Shaman", in my mind. I regrettably haven't any suggestions other than "Warden", which fits perhaps more with the (Primal) power source than with any specific role.
New defender = Barbarian. I can't help but think this is obvious; never in D&D's history have Barbarians been represented as "fragile" like 'glass cannons' (aka Strikers) are supposed to be. Barbarians have always been alongside Fighters, and I can't imagine why that would change.
Eh I'm personally still in the Barbarian=striker camp(a striker with a lot of HP) as one or two peaks of Barbarian powers that we have seen focused on damage and mobility which are more striker traits then defender ones. Of course I think we only have one Barbarian power description to analyze. *shrugs* Then again, I really think it is possible that part of being a Primal class will be being a hybrid, and the Barbarian will be a Defender/Striker. Not exactly a lot of evidence to support that though.
Eh I'm personally still in the Barbarian=striker camp(a striker with a lot of HP) as one or two peaks of Barbarian powers that we have seen focused on damage and mobility which are more striker traits then defender ones. Of course I think we only have one Barbarian power description to analyze. *shrugs* Then again, I really think it is possible that part of being a Primal class will be being a hybrid, and the Barbarian will be a Defender/Striker. Not exactly a lot of evidence to support that though.
The barbarian could aswell be a strikter, you are right. However there are two reasons why I would like them to be defender.
1. There are at present 3 striker classes but only 2 defender.
2. If I want to play a low tech fantasy campaign like in Conan, without much steel armor then there is no choice for a defender class! So it would be nice to have a defender that does not need heavy armor.
To everyone who keeps chimingthat druid will be a hybrid class, I extremely doubt that. As far as I was able to understand from the roll of roles, it was to make sure every class filled a job and knew how to fill it. That way there wouldn't be classes like 3rd's bard or swashbuckler that couldn't hack it replacing the clasic 4 and had to wait for a larger group to work well. That dousn't mean the classes don't bleed roles a little: The PHB says the Fighter has some striker elements and the paladin has some leader elements. If you want stronger hybrid, then multiclass.
In 3rd the cleric was a primary leader with some control and defender aspects. He continues that in 4th, with more control like Knights of Unyeilding Valor, but still defender options like the Warpriest path. The druid was a primary but weaker leader with better control and striker aspects (shifting). If leader bleed is expected in all divine classes than maybe striker is in primal. I can certainly see a barbarian taking on beastial aspects to strike harder. If they develop the druid similar to the cleric, I expect a leader with striker aspects, and a little control. If striker is the primary, he will be in a different role than third, and the more natural druid update would would be under a different name.
Now this is something I hadn't thought of before. All the martial classes seem to have some "striker" to them, including the fighter (a defender) and the warlord (a leader). All of the arcane classes we've seen so far, including what we've seen of the swordmage (although I'll have to take another look at the artificer) seem to have come "controller" to them. Finally, what we've seen of the divine classes, they all seem to have some "leader" to them.
You think this should be expected of every power source? Any guesses on which power source will have a "defender" flavor to it?
The barbarian could aswell be a strikter, you are right. However there are two reasons why I would like them to be defender.
1. There are at present 3 striker classes but only 2 defender.
2. If I want to play a low tech fantasy campaign like in Conan, without much steel armor then there is no choice for a defender class! So it would be nice to have a defender that does not need heavy armor.
Well Strikers seem to just be the easiest role to design for in general, so we should likely expect to see them the most plentiful. As for #2, you could always use a Swordmage(arcane defender). Leather is their highest natural armor.
You think this should be expected of every power source? Any guesses on which power source will have a "defender" flavor to it?
I think that it is certainly something that can be expected. My guesses would be the following:
-Primal: Striker(or they might be the only power source with Hybrid classes)
-Psionic: Controller
-Ki: Defender
-Shadow: Leader(maybe controller)
-Elemental: Defender(maybe variable extra role depending on element)
Of course I'm assuming that there will be two power sources of each role type with my initial guesses.
I'm hoping for Invoker and Witch, respectively.
Invoker does seem very likely (shed a little tear for the Illusionist), and it makes me want to guess that it's a striker for some reason, although in my mind, what I think of as an Invoker is a better fit for controller.
Witch doesn't seem likely to me. As far as I recall, the word "witch" is only used so far to refer to one of the Shadar-kai builds, and it seems very Shadow-oriented. I'll admit that it could just be the culture informing the choice of "spells", however -- we don't know what power sources monsters use, although some seem pretty obvious.
Unfortunately, I don't have a good guess for a "W" under the Primal power source, just because I have no idea what the power source is. WotC so far has been very tight-lipped about what kind of metaphysics are informing the class power sources. Five months ago, I would have said something like "the Primal power source probably is connected with lifeforce and the fey creatures." But eladrin focus mostly on arcane magic, and I guess gnomes will focus on Shadow(?!).
So, I'll just toss out some words we haven't seen on the thread so far...how about "Wardmaster" for a divine controller, or "Wyrder" for a primal seer-type leader.
Invoker does seem very likely (shed a little tear for the Illusionist), and it makes me want to guess that it's a striker for some reason, although in my mind, what I think of as an Invoker is a better fit for controller.
Witch doesn't seem likely to me. As far as I recall, the word "witch" is only used so far to refer to one of the Shadar-kai builds, and it seems very Shadow-oriented. I'll admit that it could just be the culture informing the choice of "spells", however -- we don't know what power sources monsters use, although some seem pretty obvious.
Unfortunately, I don't have a good guess for a "W" under the Primal power source, just because I have no idea what the power source is. WotC so far has been very tight-lipped about what kind of metaphysics are informing the class power sources. Five months ago, I would have said something like "the Primal power source probably is connected with lifeforce and the fey creatures." But eladrin focus mostly on arcane magic, and I guess gnomes will focus on Shadow(?!).
So, I'll just toss out some words we haven't seen on the thread so far...how about "Wardmaster" for a divine controller, or "Wyrder" for a primal seer-type leader.
From what I've seen primal is all about totems and spirits of nature. Whether it's focusing the spirit to gain the form of what it represents, for example druidic shapeshifting (or native american skinchangers), take on various aspects and abilities of your totem to gain ferocious abilities (aka various barbarian rages, ect.) or controlling spirits of nature to control weather, trees, animals, or help others by enhancing them with gifts from the spirits, ect. It's all about spirits and totems and stuff like that really. At least that's what it's looked to be so far.
I hold out hope its a new race called Gnarly Wave Riders. They live on oceans and speak in stereotypes ;)
Lmao. Thanks John, I was getting bored at work.
Invoker does seem very likely (shed a little tear for the Illusionist), and it makes me want to guess that it's a striker for some reason
Yeah, I'm thinking Divine Striker (calling down divine wrath and all of that).
Don't shed a tear for the Illusionist; I believe he will be a Shadow Controller, if what I've read from the designers is true.
Yeah, I'm thinking Divine Striker (calling down divine wrath and all of that).
Don't shed a tear for the Illusionist; I believe he will be a Shadow Controller, if what I've read from the designers is true.
Invoker sounds much more like a Divine Controller to me, although I still prefer I to be Inquisitor(Divine Striker). I see the Divine Controller to be someone who calls down the judgement of their god onto people, which is what Invoker sounds like to me.
Invoker sounds much more like a Divine Controller to me, although I still prefer I to be Inquisitor(Divine Striker). I see the Divine Controller to be someone who calls down the judgement of their god onto people, which is what Invoker sounds like to me.
As we have an Inquisitor paragon path, I'm not sure if we'll see an Inquisitor class (I could of course be wrong).
I think the Theurge will be the Divine Controller, and an Invoker sounds very striker-like to me – invoking your god's power to smite people etc.
As we have an Inquisitor paragon path, I'm not sure if we'll see an Inquisitor class (I could of course be wrong).
I think the Theurge will be the Divine Controller, and an Invoker sounds very striker-like to me – invoking your god's power to smite people etc.
.....Mind saying where this Inquisitor paragon path is? I just looked through the PHB, Dragon 364, and Dragon 365 and found no such class. So unless I skipped over it(for the second time) or there is a source I'm overlooking, there is no such paragon path.
See, I see invoking your god's power as bringing down plagues, floods, weeping and gnashing of teeth. The old testiment kind of stuff. That stuff just can't be contained against a single target.
Druid (primal striker)
Shaman (primal leader)
Barbarian (primal defender)
Warden (primal controller)
Inquisitor/Invoker (divine striker)
Theurge (divine controller)
Sorcerer (arcane controller)
Bard (arcane leader)
This is from dictionary.com
war·den
1. a person charged with the care or custody of persons, animals, or
things; keeper.
in·voke
–verb (used with object), -voked, -vok·ing.
1. to call for with earnest desire; make supplication or pray for: to invoke God's mercy.
2. to call on (a deity, Muse, etc.), as in prayer or supplication.
the·ur·gy
1. a system of beneficent magic practiced by the Egyptian Platonists and others.
2. the working of a divine or supernatural agency in human affairs.
From wikipedia (sorry I know its wiki but give me a break)
Grand Inquisitor (Latin: Inquisitor Generalis) is the lead official of an Inquisition. The most famous Inquisitor General is probably the Spanish Dominican Tomás de Torquemada, who spearheaded the Spanish Inquisition.
Even though the official definition of inquisitor means one who questions, one cannot help but consider the brutal murder and torture of the Jews and Muslims of Spain. Torquemada was definitely a deadly and dangerous man.
My turn
Druid (primal striker)
Shaman (primal leader)
Barbarian (primal defender)
Warden (primal controller)
Inquisitor/Invoker (divine striker)
Theurge (divine controller)
Sorcerer (arcane controller)
Bard (arcane leader)
I totally agree, except for Warden – I'm holding out for Witch!
didnt seam like a soul mage...
I hope that Witch isn't a class in 4ed. To most people Witch and Warlock are synonymous.
QFT. (Don't forget Witch and Wizard.) Primal ______? Let's call it a "Warden".
"Invoker" reminds me of evocation; arcane magic. Let's call our Divine Striker an "Inquisitor". WotC has a history of using that term for Divine Striker-type concepts anyway.
I totally agree, except for Warden – I'm holding out for Witch!
*poke* Are you intentionally ignoring my request for the location of the Inquisitor paragon path or did you just miss my question?
*poke* Are you intentionally ignoring my request for the location of the Inquisitor paragon path or did you just miss my question?
Seconded. I couldn't find "Inquisitor" in my PH either, Dan.
witch
–noun
1. a person, now esp. a woman, who professes or is supposed to practice magic, esp. black magic or the black art; sorceress. Compare warlock.
2. an ugly or mean old woman; hag: the old witch who used to own this building.
It is the female of warlock and it's black art goodness is more fitting for the shadow power source. Also d&d tends to use the male version of a noun for classes normally and the female version of the noun to restrict a class or in 3rd edition's case a prestige class. I'm not seeing the witch as very likely.
I know what your saying about invoker/evoker. I played 2nd edition d&d, and if I remember right the two used to be synonymous. I personally like the name inquisitor. However, if you look at the job of Catholicism's Grand Inquisitor it may just not be likely. The Grand Inquisitor's job is to flush out heresy.
from dictionary.com
her·e·tic
–noun
1. a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrines prescribed by that church.
2. Roman Catholic Church. a baptized Roman Catholic who willfully and persistently rejects any article of faith.
3. anyone who does not conform to an established attitude, doctrine, or principle.
When you consider Torquemada and the Spanish Inquisition. Those are some pretty adult themes (Hey Torquemada what do you say? I got a new game that you might wanna' play.) I mean if WotC is shying away from the Half-Orc, do you really think they're going to be okay with a class based on religious persecution. Besides an inquisitor makes for a polorizing character concept. He's kind of like a Paladin of Internal Affairs. Just imagine a Cleric of the Raven Queen in a group with an Inquisitor of Asmodeus (I love the sound of this). I see role-player's fighting each other to the death.
When you consider Torquemada and the Spanish Inquisition. Those are some pretty adult themes (Hey Torquemada what do you say? I got a new game that you might wanna' play.) I mean if WotC is shying away from the Half-Orc, do you really think they're going to be okay with a class based on religious persecution. Besides an inquisitor makes for a polorizing character concept. He's kind of like a Paladin of Internal Affairs. Just imagine a Cleric of the Raven Queen in a group with an Inquisitor of Asmodeus (I love the sound of this). I see role-player's fighting each other to the death.
D&D has been taking liberties with historical terminology since the 70's. Historical accuracy always takes a backseat to interesting concepts, and in this case, "Inquisitor" is no different.
The "Church Inquisitor" prestige class appeared in Complete Divine; it boiled down the "inquisitor" concept you describe above into, "A hunter of heretics." I can imagine the same idea in a 4E class:[indent]Inquisitor: Divine Striker
Hunts down enemies of his deity and his church one at a time, using weapons and prayers to condemn blasphemy.[/indent]Why not? A Divine Striker probably would be flavoured as a "hunter of heretics", wouldn't it? After all, Rangers are both the iconic hunter and the iconic striker; why not a "churchy" ranger?
I hope that Witch isn't a class in 4ed. To most people Witch and Warlock are synonymous.
Actually, these days a lot of people, even non-gamers, know that a warlock (an oath-breaker) and a witch have absolutely nothing to do with each other.
Most people know that witch is not gender specific.
It is the female of warlock and it's black art goodness is more fitting for the shadow power source.
No it isn't, a warlock is an oath-breaker – nothing to do with a witch.
And why would either have anything to do with shadow? I would say witch is much more in line with primal or elemental.
No it isn't, a warlock is an oath-breaker – nothing to do with a witch.
And why would either have anything to do with shadow? I would say witch is much more in line with primal or elemental.
Uh, because the only instance of "witch" I recall in 4e is a shadar-kai build in the MM, with shadow powers?
And 'warlock' doesn't mean an oath-breaker, although that is it's derivation from OE. If we're going that route, then we already have a 'witch', assuming you allow female wizards. (witch fr. wicce, fem. of wicca=wizard).
Uh, because the only instance of "witch" I recall in 4e is a shadar-kai build in the MM, with shadow powers?
What does one monster have anything to do with a potential class?
What does one monster have anything to do with a potential class?
Maybe nothing. You asked what a 'Witch' had to do with Shadow (I assumed you meant in the context of 4e), so I pointed out the only instance of 'Witch', as far as I can remember, and how it relates it Shadow (the race is native to the Shadowfell, the build has shadowy powers).
Of course it's a leap to say even that the shadar-kai witch uses the Shadow power source. Maybe she uses Arcane, or Martial. We just don't know what power sources monsters use, hopefully by design. That kind of thing should left up to the individual DM, imho.
We just don't know what power sources monsters use, hopefully by design. That kind of thing should left up to the individual DM, imho.
Totally.
My turn
Druid (primal striker)
Shaman (primal leader)
Barbarian (primal defender)
Warden (primal controller)
I believe the druid is confirmed to be a primal hybrid.
I believe it was stated the the druid is the "template" if you will for all primal classes.
Therefore... all primal classes might be hybrids?
which would make:
Druid (Primal striker-leader)
Shaman (Primal leader-controller)
Barbarian (Primal striker-defender)
Warder/Witch/Wu Jen/Wiccan/Wombat etc.... (Primal striker-controller)
maybe?
I was not aware that witches and warlocks were not the same thing. Care to elaborate the difference?
They're both pretty deep, so I won't really go into, lest I offend people with more knowledge about topic.
I do know that witch is not gender specific, Aleister Crowley was a witch (see link below).
Warlock is a totally different concept.
There's a plethora of info out there (internet/books etc).
http://www.controverscial.com/Aleister%20Crowley.htm
Wombat etc.... (Primal striker-controller)
And we have a winner! This made me smile – love it.
Actually, these days a lot of people, even non-gamers, know that a warlock (an oath-breaker) and a witch have absolutely nothing to do with each other.
Most people know that witch is not gender specific.
I think that you would be mistaken to play the "most" card, as that is relative. True, many people are aware of Wicca, and many are aware that many Wiccans call themselves witches, but what defines a witch (or a warlock, for that matter) depends of the opinion of the person being asked. To many people in my region of the world, for instance, warlock and witch are synonymous ("devil worshipers".) Some sects of paganism say that a warlock is simply a male witch (in mainstream culture, Disney's "Haloween Town" supports this notion.) While "a lot of people" may be accurate to your standard, the word "witch" has a tendency to resonate differently for all people, particularly on religious levels.
Therefore, I think "witch" has as little place in D&D as the word "priest" does; as there are witches and priests in real life, it would be inappropriate to associate a position in someone's religion of choice to something as simple as a D&D class.
Similarly, I think that it is inappropriate to associate with one's religious beliefs with class that have been thoroughly enough separated from their religious origins. Wizards (and their familiars, when applicable) have been plenty enough separated from traditional Christianity that it would be annoying and bizarre to here someone insist that "Wizards sell their souls to the Devil for power, and get a demon to help cast their magic." Likewise, Warlocks have been separated enough from Wicca, IMO, so that insistance that warlocks are "Oath-breakers, betrayers, traitors" (something that to my understanding is on-level to the Christian Devil-worshiper) is out of place and uncalled for.
I think that you would be mistaken to play the "most" card, as that is relative. True, many people are aware of Wicca, and many are aware that many Wiccans call themselves witches, but what defines a witch (or a warlock, for that matter) depends of the opinion of the person being asked. To many people in my region of the world, for instance, warlock and witch are synonymous ("devil worshipers".) Some sects of paganism say that a warlock is simply a male witch (in mainstream culture, Disney's "Haloween Town" supports this notion.) While "a lot of people" may be accurate to your standard, the word "witch" has a tendency to resonate differently for all people, particularly on religious levels.
Therefore, I think "witch" has as little place in D&D as the word "priest" does; as there are witches and priests in real life, it would be inappropriate to associate a position in someone's religion of choice to something as simple as a D&D class.
Similarly, I think that it is inappropriate to associate with one's religious beliefs with class that have been thoroughly enough separated from their religious origins. Wizards (and their familiars, when applicable) have been plenty enough separated from traditional Christianity that it would be annoying and bizarre to here someone insist that "Wizards sell their souls to the Devil for power, and get a demon to help cast their magic." Likewise, Warlocks have been separated enough from Wicca, IMO, so that insistance that warlocks are "Oath-breakers, betrayers, traitors" (something that to my understanding is on-level to the Christian Devil-worshiper) is out of place and uncalled for.
This, right here, is why I'm not seeing them creating a Witch class unless it can be universally viewed as such. If it's divine or primal it may just be too close to something thats actually out there, Wiccan or otherwise, and people may get offended. However if you create a class called the witch out of the shadow power source. I'm currently imagining the witch from Pirates of the Carribean, someone who would self-apply a label like Witch.
uncalled for.
"Uncalled for"?
I wasn't trying to be rude, sorry if I offended you, I was merely putting forth my opinions/observations, as you have, and I disagree with your opinions/observations, as you obviously disagree with mine - no bigee.
I would still love to see the Witch as a Primal Controller, but that's just moi.
To be clear, my response was more pertaining to your calling the Warlock an Oath-breaker. I certainly agree that a Witch would make a hella-cool Primal Controller (as it would resonate with my traditional and Wicca-informed views of the "witch").
To be clear, my response was more pertaining to your calling the Warlock an Oath-breaker. I certainly agree that a Witch would make a hella-cool Primal Controller (as it would resonate with my traditional and Wicca-informed views of the "witch").
Right on, I can dig it, you probably know more about the history of warlocks than I do (which would be very easy!), but I'm glad you agree that the Witch as a primal controller could be good.
And how do you feel about my hopes/speculations for an Invoker (divine striker) and Theurge (divine controller) in the PHB II?
And how do [you ?] feel about my hopes/speculations for an Invoker (divine striker) and Theurge (divine controller) in the PHB II?
My personal preference would be either Invoker or Theurge for Controller, or Theurge or Inquisitioner for Striker. Either way, I trust that WotC has a good reason for their class names and flavor, as that seems to be something that they are good at in this edition, so it dosn't matter too much for me.
I trust that WotC has a good reason for their class names and flavor, as that seems to be something that they are good at in this edition, so it dosn't matter too much for me.
Yeah, I also heard somewhere that they will not have two word titles or a hyphenate for class names.
Races: New races will include the gnome, the half-orc, and the goliath
Source.
I stopped following the thread for a while so I don't know if you guys already knew that.
Oops, I mean ...
So, assuming there havent been editorial changes, and the clues are still relevant, I still reconstruct the race names as follows ...
Honestly, while I think that the Shadar-kai are definitly going to eventual get a full pc write up, I think they are going to save them for the PHB that introduces the Shadow power source.
I believe it was stated the the druid is the "template" if you will for all primal classes.
Therefore... all primal classes might be hybrids?
Nah, I think it means the other classes knocked the druid out and stole most of his powers. :P
I read somewhere else that the 4e druid will focus on shapechanging. If that's true it has to be either a defender or striker, and most if not all of the spells are stripped out and given to the shaman (healing, buffing) and the whatever-the-primal-controller-will-be-named (plant and weather control). The druid will probably get to keep his movement powers, though, for flavor. ;)
Nah, I think it means the other classes knocked the druid out and stole most of his powers. :P
I read somewhere else that the 4e druid will focus on shapechanging. If that's true it has to be either a defender or striker, and most if not all of the spells are stripped out and given to the shaman (healing, buffing) and the whatever-the-primal-controller-will-be-named (plant and weather control). The druid will probably get to keep his movement powers, though, for flavor. ;)
Since the druid packed the firepower of four classes in one, splitting it up is a pretty good idea.
Nah, I think it means the other classes knocked the druid out and stole most of his powers. :P
I read somewhere else that the 4e druid will focus on shapechanging. If that's true it has to be either a defender or striker, and most if not all of the spells are stripped out and given to the shaman (healing, buffing) and the whatever-the-primal-controller-will-be-named (plant and weather control). The druid will probably get to keep his movement powers, though, for flavor. ;)
From what has been said so far, the Druid will get shapshifting and weather magic when they are nonshifted. So the primal controller, assuming there is one, will likely focus on something besides weather magic.
From what has been said so far, the Druid will get shapshifting and weather magic when they are nonshifted. So the primal controller, assuming there is one, will likely focus on something besides weather magic.
Or, weather magic + something else. If a bard and a wizard can both have illlusions, then both a druid and a [Primal Controller] can both have weather.
Or, weather magic + something else. If a bard and a wizard can both have illlusions, then both a druid and a [Primal Controller] can both have weather.
Assuming that the Druid isn't the Primal Controller. (Which, admittedly, it may very well not be.)
Or, weather magic + something else. If a bard and a wizard can both have illlusions, then both a druid and a [Primal Controller] can both have weather.
Yeah, and as I have speculated/hoped, and I know you agree, this Primal Controller could be this "W" class in PHB II – Witch, maybe.
In know everyone gets into semantic arguments over these kinds of words/titles, but really, how many times Merlin was referred to as a wizard, sorcerer, necromancer, druid and many others.
I hope there's more than that. I'd really like more than two things in the book I'm interested in ... (Goliaths and Shifters).
There's definately more than that in the book, those are just the few they specifically mention. According to the description of the PHB2 Power Cards set, there will be 8 classes. Not sure exactly how many races there will be from any description in here though.
[indent]Here's one in favor of the Theurge/Thaumaturge vote:[indent]The Luruar preview/excerpt from the upcoming Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide lists Miresk's School of Thaumaturgy as a college whose curriculum has been added to the University of Silverymoon.[/indent]There must be Theurge/Thaumaturges running around if there's teachers out there being employed to share knowledge of the art![/indent]
nice catch
[indent]
nice catch
Thanks.
[/indent]Yeah, and as I have speculated/hoped, and I know you agree, this Primal Controller could be this "W" class in PHB II – Witch, maybe.
Maybe witch doctor.
See, all the arguments about 4E being WoW are wrong; it's actually Diablo III!
[indent]Here's one in favor of the Theurge/Thaumaturge vote:[indent]The Luruar preview/excerpt from the upcoming Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide lists Miresk's School of Thaumaturgy as a college whose curriculum has been added to the University of Silverymoon.[/indent]There must be Theurge/Thaumaturges running around if there's teachers out there being employed to share knowledge of the art![/indent]
I might just be missing something due to lack of setting knowledge, but as far as I'm aware, "thaumaturgy" oft just refers to the "science" of magic. So it might just be a standard-issue wizard college or something... or perhaps a more general arcane college, teaching swordmages, wizards, artificers, and similar arcane characters that learn their powers instead of using them instinctively or the like. Or perhaps it's not even that so much as a college that teaches ritual casters, given that actual wizards and the like are supposed to be kind of rare. Who knows. But in any case, I'd counsel not getting your hopes up unless there is a specific reason to believe that it refers to an honest-to-goodness new class and isn't just another way to refer to an arcanist/ritualist college.
For example, I've had the idea to run an all-arcane game next summer, and I was thinking I'd set it in a "school of thaumaturgy" instead of a "school of wizardry" given the fact that there's way more to the arcane power source than wizards now.
(And for anyone who didn't catch it, I'm kidding about 4E = Diablo III.)
[indent]
I might just be missing something due to lack of setting knowledge, but as far as I'm aware, "thaumaturgy" oft just refers to the "science" of magic. So it might just be a standard-issue wizard college or something... or perhaps a more general arcane college, teaching swordmages, wizards, artificers, and similar arcane characters that learn their powers instead of using them instinctively or the like. Or perhaps it's not even that so much as a college that teaches ritual casters, given that actual wizards and the like are supposed to be kind of rare. Who knows. But in any case, I'd counsel not getting your hopes up unless there is a specific reason to believe that it refers to an honest-to-goodness new class and isn't just another way to refer to an arcanist/ritualist college.
Err... I appreciate your unsolicited counseling... I'm merely speculating for the simple sport of it.[/indent]
These mysterious spare letters and that statement (from what seems like ages ago now) about them not wanting to use the name Aasimar for the Tieflings opposite number seem like they could potentially flow together...
Deificar? Diviniar? Deusimar?
This is assuming that S is Shadar-Kai of course...
Maybe witch doctor.
Isn't Witch Doctor a synonym for Shaman?
I might just be missing something due to lack of setting knowledge, but as far as I'm aware, "thaumaturgy" oft just refers to the "science" of magic. So it might just be a standard-issue wizard college or something... or perhaps a more general arcane college, teaching swordmages, wizards, artificers, and similar arcane characters that learn their powers instead of using them instinctively or the like.
To my knowledge, Wizards have always been the "scientists of magic," and if Taumaturges are what you suppose they are, well, they can just back off IMO. I got my magical scientist and I like him.
This is what Wikipedia says about Thaumaturges, btw:
Thaumaturgy (from the Greek words θαῦμα thaûma, stem thaumat-, meaning "miracle" or "marvel" and ἔργον érgon, meaning "work") is the capability of a saint or magician to work miracles.
So, if you changed your definition so that instead of "logical study of magic" to fit more accurately to "propensity for magic," then it might be a bit more accurate. In the mean time, I think this is the exact sort of thing WotC would go after for a Divine class, particularly some sort of Controller.
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De___r
These mysterious spare letters and that statement (from what seems like ages ago now) about them not wanting to use the name Aasimar for the Tieflings opposite number seem like they could potentially flow together...
Deificar? Diviniar? Deusimar?
This is assuming that S is Shadar-Kai of course...
I'm a firm believer in:[indent]Shadar-kai
Deva
Shifter[/indent]Only time will tell![/indent]
Wizardmon:
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Isn't Witch Doctor a synonym for Shaman?
Yep!
Though I'm sure someone is going to follow this post with a froth-mouthed dissertation (given that they are the world's leader on the subject) making evident the explicit differences between the historical "shaman" and "witch doctor" and attack us both for the grievous transgression of making such a sweeping generalization of well-respected cultural figures.So, if you changed your definition so that instead of "logical study of magic" to fit more accurately to "propensity for magic," then it might be a bit more accurate. In the mean time, I think this is the exact sort of thing WotC would go after for a Divine class, particularly some sort of Controller.
Me too!
I would like it know that while Thaumaturge I think is a good concept for a class, I like the name Theurge better because it is shorter. :D
I remember opening my 3.5E DMG's prestige classes section for the first time and not being sure about how to pronounce either one. :P
Isn't Witch Doctor a synonym for Shaman?
Accoring to their wikipedia definitions, witch doctors are simply healers who use ancestral methods while shamans are more of priests of shamanistic religions. Although personally I've always associated witch doctor with voodoo. *shrugs*
Accoring to their wikipedia definitions, witch doctors are simply healers who use ancestral methods while shamans are more of priests of shamanistic religions. Although personally I've always associated witch doctor with voodoo. *shrugs*
"Witch doctor" and "Shaman" may not be synonyms, per se, but they're similar enough that as separate classes, they'd be largely redundant. It would be more appropriate for one to be a Paragon Path of the other, than, say, for each to be a separate class. (Similar to the way "Justiciar" isn't unique enough compared to Paladin to be a class, but it is unique enough to be its own Paladin Paragon Path.)
That was curious.
Of course in 2e there was also the Shaman class from Players Option: Spells and Magic and three whole classes from a second book devoted wholly to shamans. And then 3.X had both an OA version and the Spirit Shaman. Point being, it's a concept that keeps butting its way in even though no one seems to really get a handle on what to do with it.
I vaguely remember some official AD&D 2nd ed. book offering a Witch class and stuff.
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I vaguely remember some official AD&D 2nd ed. book offering a Witch class and stuff.
It was a kit offered in the Complete Wizard's Handbook. I pointed this out about 15 or so pages ago.
I believe the Complete Priest's Handbook contained a Shaman kit as well.[/indent]
Maybe witch doctor.
I believe they have stated classes will only have one word titles (no hyphenates etc).
I believe they have stated classes will only have one word titles (no hyphenates etc).
Besides, do we really need players having their characters cast spells by saying "Oo ee oo ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang"? ;)
Besides, do we really need players having their characters cast spells by saying "Oo ee oo ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang"? ;)
yes, yes we do
in fact, ALL magicusers should have to sing that
Besides, do we really need players having their characters cast spells by saying "Oo ee oo ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang"? ;)
I prefer "Taaaay tum….taaaay tum…"
Ubbergeek:
[indent]It was a kit offered in the Complete Wizard's Handbook. I pointed this out about 15 or so pages ago.
I believe the Complete Priest's Handbook contained a Shaman kit as well.[/indent]
I means, litteraly a book/product centered on it. Maybe a sort of 'third party' book...
Or I'm confusing. *shrugs* And yet...